Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 27 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 1000



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: micro survey
Re: What does TSR stand for? (They Sue Regularly?)
M0 Errata
Re: Alien Races...
Re: What does TSR stand for? (They Sue Regularly?)
Early RPGs
Re: Help
Re: Skills, Attributes, and so forth
Re: micro survey
One System Games
Old foggies quiz
Task System Mods
Adventure Outline Based on T4 Illustrations?
"Porting"
Fuzzy Dice
Re: MT-Careers
Re: Dice Orthodoxy
RE: TSR=?
Re: Roswell Incident
Milieu 0 and First Survey growth maps!
Re: MT Task System
Milieu 0/First Survey Maps: Proposed Solutions
Re: In-system Traveller?
Re: MT-Careers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:11:11 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: micro survey

Gotcha...  I have the books, too.  They came out as suppliments to the
original, three-book set of D&D books... which were preceded by Chainmail,
more of a medieval skirmish set.  The fourth book (supplement 1) was
Greyhawk, and Blackmoor  and Eldritch Wizardry were supplements 2 and 3,
respectively... You know, we're all showing our age by being literate about
these things... - Bill

...<cut>
>Traveller may well be the fisrt SF rpg but D&D was NOT the fisrt fantasy=
 rpg.
>That one goes to the Blackmoor, Eldritch wizardry whatever=8A books by TSR
>that came before D&D upon which D&D was based. (I have the books)
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>
>
>




- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:35:02 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What does TSR stand for? (They Sue Regularly?)

At 12:26 AM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Tactical Studies Rules.

or..

Terribly Silly Rules
Trademark Symbol Required
Terrible Simulation of Reality
Tons o' Sourcebooks Required

Even though I'm over 30, I feel I deserve a few points for being Craig's
game guinea pig for so many years.  I mean, he made me play Aftermath!  Not
to mention War in the Ice where I always had to play the south American Union...

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:35:17 -0500
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: M0 Errata

Joe,

I just picked up MO, and noticed one error right off the bat ;)

The "With Thanks to:" credits are missing ... me.

When Marc first started asking opinions about the 
Imperium's founding document, I suggested the title
"Warrant of Restoration."  

"Edict," "Proclamation," and such seemed pretty dry
and over-used. Since "Warrant" already had a
history of usage in Traveller, and its definition
included something like this, it seemed a good pick.
And the whole point of a *Third* Imperium was to
lay claim th the past glories (and past territories)
of the previous two.  Cleon wasn't creating a new 
Sylean empire, he was restoring the greater Imperial legacy.
Thus, "Warrant of Restoration."

Marc liked it, and thereafter referred to it as such.

Subsequently, Jeff Zeitlin (I think) drew up the actual text.


John H Bogan
jbogan@pipeline.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:35:09 -0500
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Races...

Corrections:

At 02:20 PM 2/24/97 -0700, Paul Sanders wrote:
>Hi. Here is a list of Traveller Alien/Minor Races from an old HIWIG document.
>
>MHR = Minor Human Race
>
>Name          Source                  Home World/Subsector/Sector(Hex)
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----<snip>

>Ilthara       Planet Guide/Drexilthar Drexilthar/Drexilthar/Reaver's Deep(2618)

The Ilthara are human, and thus get an MHR designator.
They had an empire that would still be active in 
Milieu 200: the Imperium crushed it in 268 when it
sided with the Principality of Caledon in the long-
simmering war between the two.

<more snip>

>Vegan         Supplement 11           ?/?/Ilelish

???? What are the Vegans doing in Ilelish?
They're from Muan Gwi/Solomani Rim.


>Virushi       JTAS 12                 Virshash/Urlaqqash/Reaver's Deep(2724)

Urlaggash subsector, not Urlaqqash. This is a typo from
FASA's FAR TRAVELLER magazine that was carried over by DGP,
apparently they confused the lower case "gg" for "qq".

Pilot's Guide to Drexilthar Subsector, by J.A. Keith
(who along with his brother were the original authors of
most Reavers' Deep material), uses upper case "GG" on the 
sector and subsector maps, making it a bit clearer.

And as long as I'm playing typo-patrol, Reavers' Deep
subsector P is "Fahinar", not "Ffalnar" or "Fahlnar", and 
the sector itself is "Reavers' " (plural possesive) not 
"Reaver's" (singular possesive) Deep.

John Bogan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:10:08 -0600 (CST)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Subject: Re: What does TSR stand for? (They Sue Regularly?)

 
A few notes...
 
TSR stood for Tactical Studies Rules, which is related by happenstance to the name of the Lake Geneva gaming group of the time, the LGTSA, or Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association.  It was formed by Don Kay and Gary Gygax, and took over some of the titles originally published by Guidon Games, including Chainmail.
 
The Chainmail Fantasy Supplement (which appeared in the 2nd Ed. of Chainmail) was used by Dave Arneson as part of the basis for the "dungeon" expeditions that later were used as the basis of D&D "Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures" by Gygax & Arneson.  The three booklets were:
 
1)  Men & Magic
2)  Monsters & Treasure
3)  The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures
 
"Blackmoor" was the name of the second supplement for D&D, published in 1976.  This was the name of Dave Arneson's house campaign, some adventures having been written up in issues of The Strategic Review, the TSR magazine published before The Dragon.
 
Blackmoor as a campaign was produced by Judges Guild as The First Fantasy Campaign, which came out in 1978 or 1979 (I believe).  Arneson later went on to publish his ill-fated Adventures in Fantasy, which came closer to his original idea of what D&D ought to have been, but was left out in the cold by the success of the TSR product.
 
Any other comments?  See ya!
 
Victor Raymond
(a very dedicated lurker)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:33:59 -0800
From: Shannon Appel <appel@erzo.org>
Subject: Early RPGs

>>Therefore, there were no SF RPGs before Traveller.
>>
>There was one by Flying Buffalo... Copyright was 1976 onn the copy I have seen
>
>Tunnels and Trolls also predates Traveller and Post dates D&D (1975). Also
>by Flying Buffalo. (BTW, this one, I just looked up in my copies of T&T).

Traveller was actually at least SF game #3. 

The first was Starfaring, by Ken St. Andre, published by Flying
Buffalo, 1976. No supplements ever published. Died a quick death.

The second was Metamorphosis Alpha, by James Ward, published by TSR,
1976. Later became Gamma World--more or less--which was viable 'til
the end of the eighties, although never real big.

Other non-SF games that came out before Traveller included Boot Hill
(1975), Empire of the Petal Throne (1975, using quasi-D&D), En Garde
(1975), Knights of the Round Table (1976), Monsters! Monsters! (1976,
using quasi-T&T), and Tunnels & Trolls (1975).

And, I couldn't even guess when Traveller came out in 1977, the same
year as games such as Superhero: 2044, AD&D, Chivalry & Sorcery, Space
Quest, and Space Patrol.

In any case, Traveller was somewhere between the eighth and fifteenth
RPG, depending on how you count.

Shannon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:30:11 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Help

> Is that better, kenneth? (Really, I AM trying to help. Might not SEEM that
> way at times...)

Yes, thanks.  Your comments cleared up the questions I had on your 
original post.

And, I know that you are trying to help. Otherwise, you would not 
have responded to my Help post.

Thanks again,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:38:07 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Skills, Attributes, and so forth

> This is not exactly true... even in Kbv1.1 stats are still dominant. The
> halved stat gets applied to many different tasks and the doubled skill only
> gets applied to its own tasks. Stats are still valued over skills. The
> difference is that in KBv1.1 skills actually have a significant impact on
> the target number, while in the T4 system skills are insignificant, so long
> as you have at least a skill 1.

You point is well taken and exactly true in the context that you have 
provided.  And you know what?  I don't have a problem with anything 
you've said here.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 03:06:57 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: micro survey

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>, triggering sweet nostalgic memories of
mayhem, said:

>Somewhere around the publication of Blackmoor, Dave Hargrave released
>"Arduin Grimoire," a third-party supplement for D&D.  AG was famously
>bloody and "Monty Haul"-oriented.  The critical hit table from AG is one
>of the enduring classics of the RPG industry...for example, one entry read
>"Entire head pulped and splattered over wide area"

What's that sound? Is that an earthquake? Lightning? No, it's...
.... a herd of Thunderbunnies!

RUN AWAAAAAAYYY!!!!

Yeeeeha!

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:10:28 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: One System Games

I ran a rather fun game (Two PC's)where a retired Police Chief and his
friend kept finding mystery and adventure in the Regina system. 4 months,
never left the moon of regina; heck, they never left the region of the
starport.

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:56:03 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Old foggies quiz

Okay, so having determined the arcane meaning of TSR, who can
answer the following?

what does FASA stand for?
what does SPI stand for?
What were SPI's RPG's called?
What was GDW noted for before traveller?
What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?
What was the Chaosium's magazine dedicated to RuneQuest?
What does SORAG mean?
Who was Gigi D'Arn?
What issue did JTAS start using colour?
Who produced C&S?
What was GDW's modern minatures rules called?

Anybody able to answer all these questions has spent far too
long playing RPG's :*).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  "Multiples aren't crazy,
   Just very very complicated"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 05:14:09 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Task System Mods

Folks:

The task system discussion is interesting--but I'm beginning to detect an 
"edge" in some voices.

Everyone count to three and repeat after me: "It's just a game".

Now, let's go back to discussing whether we'll see a scene in a future 
release for T4 where Cleon gestures at a window and says: "Think of 
pastels!"

;)



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to 
vote."

Ambassador Kosh
BABYLON FIVE

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 05:14:22 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Adventure Outline Based on T4 Illustrations?

Greetings:

I've been looking through archived messages without luck--did anybody out 
there write an adventure or an adventure outline based on the interior 
illustrations (the B&W Elmore's, not the Foss illustrations) of the T4 
book?

If so, could you point me to where it is or e-mail me a copy? I'm 
developing a adventure but could use a boost of inspiration.

Thanks!



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to 
vote."

Ambassador Kosh
BABYLON FIVE

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 05:14:18 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: "Porting"

Greetings:

GDW's early supplement 1001 Characters had a number of famous SF 
characters in the back of the book...Luke Skywalker, Dominic Flandry, 
others.

My first Traveller game freely borrowed from Niven, Anderson, Foster and 
many others.

A. Bertram Chandler had his Commodore Grimes visit an alternative 
universe once where Dominic Flandry was encountered. This could work in 
Traveller for a mis-jump!

Remember, minor authors imitate, great authors steal outright.



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to 
vote."

Ambassador Kosh
BABYLON FIVE

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 05:14:13 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Fuzzy Dice

Greetings:

I'm not sure of the status of the company, but Zocci Distributors was 
selling Traveller dice up to about six months ago. These were black D6's, 
with the Imperial Starburst and a "computer font" number (1 through 6, 
natch) on the starburst in red.

I ***still*** have my original Armory dice from 1978 or 
thereabouts--black with red pips.

(The reason I say "I'm not sure of the status of the company" is that I 
believe that Zocchi has shut down and somebody else--Chessex???--has 
taken over the distribution...)



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to 
vote."

Ambassador Kosh
BABYLON FIVE

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:22:10 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: MT-Careers

Mike Sellers wrote:
> 
> I did a variety of Scientist careers for CT a number of years ago,
> including Xenobiologist, Archeologist, Physicist, Sophontocist (replaces
> psychologist :) ).  If I still have these I'll post them to the TML if
> anyone is interested.
> 
Yea! Post it! [greed, greed ;-) ]

Buddy
> 
> --
> 
> Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net
> 
> "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others
> may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done
> by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:31:05 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Dice Orthodoxy

Zhodani agents report that Steve Charlton/IFSNA wrote:

- -> Lesser beings!  Who among you has the holiest of holies, the
- -> black 6-sided dice with the Imperial Sunburst in the "one" spot?
- -> 
- -> I'd love to see Imperium Games sell those again!  I only got two of them, and 
- -> Lord knows I could use more.
- -> 
- -> Steve Charlton
- -> High Archpriest
- -> Holy and Benelovent Order of the Twin Imperial Dice
- -> 
MUST....GET....THOSE....DICE (Bad Kirk impression!
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 06:43:06 -0500
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: RE: TSR=?

> >> Two bonus points, by the way, for the first person under 30 years of age
> >> to tell me what "TSR" stands for.  No fair peaking at the fine print in
> >> one of their publications!
> >
> >TSR stands for "Tactical Studies Rules"  I am 26 and remember that from
> >memory, honest!
> 
> Then I'd say you should probably take your two bonus points and see if you
> can exchange them for something a little more... ah... vivacious. :)
> 
What?  Another one of those "vivacious" things?  One is troub..er..I
mean, fine enough thank you. ;)
*The Commander puts his 2 point chit back in the jar for the next,
posibly younger person to blurt out the answer*
- -- 
Commander X
(cmdrx@magicnet.net <or> bprankard@theiia.org)
Creator, Maintainor, and Webmeister of "Planet X"
(www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:36:30 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: Roswell Incident

Harold D. Hale wrote:

[snipped some interesting points of view]


> Regards,
> 
> Harold
> 
> P.S.  This discussion does raise an interesting point though.  What do
> Vilani see when they watch Terran/Solomani entertainment programs?
> Would they laugh at the same things?  How much of humor (love, etc.) is
> universal and how much of it is cultural?
> 

Hah! That'S a good question!
On the one side, culture is SO MUCH MORE than language, that I would
question anyway, how well people from different star-systems could
possibly understand each other.
On the other side, it's recently possible on our planet, that people
form different cultures communicate and even deal with each other, and
not trying to eliminate everything and everybody, they don't understand.

"let there be hope ..."

CyA
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:46:46 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Milieu 0 and First Survey growth maps!

Zhodani agents report that Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

- -> > A set of small maps showing the growth of the Imperium in 25 year
- -> > leaps from 0 to 100 would have been nice. 
- -> 
- -> Yup.  I agree wholeheartedly.  I wish we could have done that.  :(
Well, wouldn't it be possible to make these pages now, that both are 
out and post them to a web page or publish them in an independent 
zine or supplement?
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:51:19 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: MT Task System

Zhodani agents report that Mused wrote:

- -> William F. Hostman wrote:
- -> > >Well, i always continued to used the olde MT Task System, and i
- -> > >wouldn't think anything of it if IT got chosen (with slight
- -> > >reworking, maybe) as the "NEW" T4 Task system!
- -> > 
- -> > Here, here!
- -> 
- -> Not just here! Everywhere.
- -> TPFMTTS
To all of infinity! Forever! And ever!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:14:28 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Milieu 0/First Survey Maps: Proposed Solutions

In TML 997 Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu> asked about the Milieu 0
"Map"

Just to confirm... basically, the Milieu 0 book was written to encapsulate
as much of the previous canon as possible, e.g. the fact that most of the
Core sector was already "known" to the Syleans, plus having pretty much
defeated the Interstellar Confederacy, Chanestin, etc. So all that data can
be regarded as accurate, i.e. the Milieu 0 text is correct.

Unfortunately, the sector data for First Survey was not made available to us
and we were not told how it was generated.

My most humbly submitted suggestions (to bring the two more into line) are:

(a) The maps should be considered to be only what is generally known by the
Sylean citizens and internal far traders. Scouts, military personnel, and
border traders could be given most of the referee data for *whichever
specific area* they have operated in previously or are currently operating
in. Although many such explorers and venturesome traders were whizzing
around the sector even by year 0, the Imperium wanted to keep a firm hold on
the exploitation of new worlds, so planetary data would not be available
"for sale" in your local nav stockist - you'd only know about those worlds
that you'd actually visited or - as is hinted at in M0 - that you'd bought
data for illegally, from Scout contacts, etc. The more general Imperium
claim to 'own' Core sector in Year 0 could be sustained more because the
major competitors had been subdued than by the fact that the Imperium had
actually managed to expand sufficiently to have taken over the populations
and cultures of the hundreds of worlds therein. So the Imperium in Year 0
could make big claims, but realistically was no more than a thinly spread
network of traders and military ships, maintaining Imperial presence through
trade or force.

(b) The low statistics for the Confederacy ("centered on three powerful
worlds: Marsus, Protalus, and Sketola (the capital).") could be regarded as
their statistics after having been subdued by the Imperium, i.e. starports
reduced significantly (perhaps the higher class stuff still exists at A or B
but is only available to Imperial military ships). Such states might well be
left half-disabled and isolated for many years while the Imperium worked to
expand sufficiently that it could *economically* afford to fully integrate
these previously *hostile* worlds into the Imperium.

>...and as for Keshi/Dunea and their "militaristic rulers with their now-
>superior technology":
>  Keshi      1938 B566200-7   Lo           114
>A hundred people at tech-7 with no government?  I don't think so.

Ok, I'm running out of excuses here. There appear to be a number of
anomalous population/tech problems in FS which can best be explained away as
temporary tiny (1-9 people, or, for pop multiplier 0, tiny *and* transient)
bases and research posts placed by the expanding Imperium or perhaps one of
the other powers prior to the Imperium's expansion.

>I've found some other problems, too, but I think that gets the point
>across.  Let's just say that I'm not terribly impressed with the 
>integration of the map for the new sourcebook.

I can only apologise that when we were writing M0, IG did not make the FS
data available to us (despite our repeated requests) nor was it clear how
many sectors FS was to cover. If we had received the necessary information
we could have checked Core for inconsistencies with M0 and I'd have made
damned sure the Gushmege data tied up with The Long Way Home! :-)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:13:42 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: In-system Traveller?

Neveron wrote:

>
>>> From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
>>>
>>> > Have any of you run a Traveller campaign that took place entirely within
>>> > one star system?
>
>Pete has us in the Glisten system and swears we will never get to leave
>because he's spent so much time on the background. I think he means it
>because the only ship we can get our hands on has no jump drive. Maybe you
>can get him to tell you more about  The Great Space Mall...


        Hey!  If that's anything like Somtow Sucharitkul's _MallWorld_, I
WANNA PLAY!

        Boy that was a bent one...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:23:28 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: MT-Careers

Zhodani agents report that Harald Budschedl wrote:

- -> Mike Sellers wrote:
- -> > 
- -> > I did a variety of Scientist careers for CT a number of years ago,
- -> > including Xenobiologist, Archeologist, Physicist, Sophontocist (replaces
- -> > psychologist :) ).  If I still have these I'll post them to the TML if
- -> > anyone is interested.
- -> > 
- -> Yea! Post it! [greed, greed ;-) ]
I second that request!
 Yeah, gimme gimme!
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1000
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 27 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 1001



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)
ID4 vs. Mars Attacks!
Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?
Oldest RPGS and Blackmoor
Re: M0 Errata
Re: Blackmoor (isn't this off-topic on a Traveller list?)
Re: micro survey
Re: ID4 vs. Mars Attacks!
Re: The Traveller Creed
Break CharGen, then...  (was Re: Apples and oranges?)
Re: Dice Orthodoxy
Q: CSC
Re: In-system Traveller?
Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)
Re: Skills versus Attributes
Re: Old foggies quiz
Re: MT-Careers
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)
Re: Break CharGen, then...  (was Re: Apples and oranges?)
Dates and authors of articles (was Re: Milieu 0...)
Re: Followup to FS/M0 Subsector Names...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:13:53 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

Harold D. Hale:

>
>>>probability curves and task rules, we possibly do.  Just consider
>>>it an Article of Faith in the Traveller's Creed ("We believe in one
>>>die, with six sides and spots") and leave it at that.
>>
>>   Well, I guess I'll have to found a schism or sumthin'. Anybody else
>>wanna join me in eternal damnation?
>
>and Eris writes:
>
>>Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->
>>
>>Welcome to the outer darkness.
>
>   I'm the third in this unholy alliance I guess.  Gee, if we could just
>cause another person to give up his or her immortal soul, we could be
>the Four Horseman of the Apocalyse!  Can I be War, please huh? please!
>
>Regards,
>
>Harold (using D20s, D10s, *and* D6s to play Traveller and loving every
>minute of it)


        Look.  I'm kit bashing something up based on FF&S TL6-7 designs,
using my own (hopefully totally mutant bizarre '50's B-gradeish once it's
done) background, and using the StoryTeller task system.

        And then there's the pogo stick.

        I wanna be Beast of the Apocalypse.  At the least.


"...and his number was a human number, and his number was 42."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:13:49 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: ID4 vs. Mars Attacks!

Harold D. Hale wrote:

[snip]
>
>   Wrong.  The film takes place starting on the 50th anniversary of the
>Roswell Incident and concludes on July 4th.  As it turns out the Roswell
>Incident involved one of their scouting parties, which left a
>scout/fighter craft behind.  Assuming near C travel, the aliens were 25
>light years (more or less) away and came to rape Earth of its adundant
>resources.
>
>   Apparently no one told the aliens that everything they could get here
>was available in our asteroid belt, and they could have mined it without
>having to worry about a run in with the natives.
[chainsaw noises]

        Or that you don't need to build a fleet of 16km-wide flying saucers
to destroy a city when a nuke, or god forbid a humble, not even
relatavistic, rock will do.  There was this great file came over the net
titled "40 things I learned from ID4" that just ripped the movie apart.
Nice eye candy, but it would have taken a big crane to suspend my disbelief
over that one, and the grating propaganda got on my nerves bigtime...

        Now Mars Attacks!, on the other hand, was brilliant.  I hope that
the bozos responsible for ID4 saw it and experienced what all true hacks
feel in the presence of towering genius.  Mars Attacks! is, IMHO, the
ultimate alien invasion flick.  It's done the genre; it's the epitome of
it's type; everything else after it can only be pale imitation...

        Ahh... giant war robots trashing trailer parks...  fleets of flying
saucers levelling Las Vegas...  mmmm.  What a great way tostart off your
morning.  What a wonderful movie... Angk waaak gnaaak gaaaaak gak!  Nak
gaaak ack waaak!  Gnaaak angk angk nak wak!  Gnaaaaak!  Gnaaaaaak!
Gnaaaaaaaaaaak!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:13:45 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?

J. Raynor wrote:

>On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Eric Freitas wrote:
>> There is some speculation that the NERVA rocket was used in a
>> flight testbed in Texas.  There was UFO (Note, I didn't say Martian
>> Invaders) overflight of a remote highway, in which the occupants of
>> a car stopped to look at a flaming object crossing the sky at very
>> low altitude.  These two women suffered from radiation poisoning
>> and the paint on their car bubbled off.  Shortly after the object
>> crossed the road, a bunch of military helicopters flew by in the same
>> direction.  The D.O.D. denies the allegation that they ever flight
>> tested a nuclear rocket however.
>
>*WOW!*
>
>This sounds a *LOT* like something I read about in "Scientific American" a
>while ago: a supersonic, low-altitude, robotic bomber, powered by an
>atomic ram-jet (essentially an unshielded fission reactor).  According to
>the article, the bomber (or, if you prefer, "cruise missle") was never
>assembled and flown, but its engine was test-fired, by running compressed
>air (stored in hundreds of meters of pipe) through it.  I don't trust my
>memory, but I think the project was called "S.L.A.M." (which stood for
>supersonic low-altitude missle, or some such thing), the atomic ram-jet
>engine itself was called "Project Pluto," and the ungodly thing somehow
>got the nickname "the flying crowbar."  I also recall reading that one
>plan was to program the thing to fly back and forth over its target area
>after delivering its payload of bombs, spewing radioactive debris...
>
>Does this bit of late-'50s/early-'60s Cold War lunacy sound familiar to
>anyone, or is some Zhodani practical joker playing with my memory?
>
>                                                              - J. Raynor


        Nope.  The US military were actually seriously considering the
things at one point, but they got axed when common sense prevailed (Allah
be thanked).  What a bloody nightmare those things would be...  Of course,
in my slowly evolving Commie Cthulhu Cultists in Space!!!! (I figured what
the hell... one more shadowy evil group, especially such a distinguished
bunch as the Ancient Ones, could only improve things) background, the SAC
will obviously have a bunch of those babies sitting on a tarmac somewhere
slowly killing their ground crews.

        Ahhh... the Cold War.  Wierd, but I'm getting nostalgic, and I
wasn't even around then.  Bloody baby boomers and their stranglehold on pop
culture :).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 06:15:16 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Oldest RPGS and Blackmoor

TSR stood for Tactical Studies Rules
at least according to the intro to my novemeber 78 edition of 
Greyhawk.

Just for more acronym trivia
FASA stood for the Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration

the oriiginal edition of Space Opera dates to about the same time as 
Traveller. or a little earlier.

Blackmoor WAS published as a campaign of sorts, but not by TSR
it was called "The First Fantasy Campaign" and published by
Judges Guild.


The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 06:48:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: M0 Errata

On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, John H Bogan Jr wrote:

> I just picked up MO, and noticed one error right off the bat ;)
> 
> The "With Thanks to:" credits are missing ... me.
> 
> When Marc first started asking opinions about the 
> Imperium's founding document, I suggested the title
> "Warrant of Restoration."  

Hi John,

I had no idea.  If I'd known, I would have suggested putting your name in 
there.  But, since I didn't know...what could I do?

Sorry. :(


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 12:28:00 PST
From: David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Blackmoor (isn't this off-topic on a Traveller list?)

William F. Hostman <aramis@asylumbbs.com> said:

> [Blackmoor] was Book 5 for D&D, I have a copy.
>
> The Blackmoor campaign system was never published separately.

I thought I was the only person in the world still running a Blackmoor   
campaign (off & on - when I can get my gun-bunnies off Cyberpunk, SLA or   
Traveller)!

William is right about Blackmoor being the fifth book for the old   
white-box D&D set. However, he is wrong about Blackmoor never being   
published separately. Blackmoor was published by Judges' Guild (anyone   
remember their Traveller stuff?) in about 1979 or so under the title   
'First Fantasy Campaign'. T$R also brought out four Blackmoor modules in   
the early eighties.

Also, in all the arguements about how many RPGS were published before   
Traveller, no-one has yet mentioned Chivalry & Sorcery (I'd have to check   
my copy, but 1975 I think).

I now return you to your regularly scheduled Traveller Mailing List. :-)

Kind Regards

David Elrick
david.elrick@ps.co.uk  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:52:41 -0600
From: "David Reed" <david@techrefuge.com>
Subject: Re: micro survey

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: micro survey
> Date: Wednesday, February 26, 1997 2:16 AM

> > Traveller may well be the fisrt SF rpg but D&D was NOT the fisrt
fantasy rpg.
> > That one goes to the Blackmoor, Eldritch wizardry whateverS books by
TSR
> > that came before D&D upon which D&D was based. (I have the books)
> 
> Those books are considered the very early edition of D&D.  D&D was 
> originally three little books, the ones you have, just like 
> Traveller.

Am I old, our have y'all missed T&T?  IIRC, Tunnels and Trolls beat D&D to
the presses...
__________________________________________________________________________

David Reed  ***  david@techrefuge.com   ***   May Microsoft be with you...
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 08:59:52 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: ID4 vs. Mars Attacks!

At 07:13 AM 2/27/97 -0500, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>Harold D. Hale wrote:
>[snip]

>>   Wrong.  The film takes place starting on the 50th anniversary of the
>>Roswell Incident and concludes on July 4th.  As it turns out the Roswell
>>Incident involved one of their scouting parties, which left a
>>scout/fighter craft behind.  Assuming near C travel, the aliens were 25
>>light years (more or less) away and came to rape Earth of its adundant
>>resources.

Remember they travelled world to world raping it of is resources.  

>>   Apparently no one told the aliens that everything they could get here
>>was available in our asteroid belt, and they could have mined it without
>>having to worry about a run in with the natives.
>[chainsaw noises]

Naw, they need atmosphere, walking around on a 1G world, purty trees to
chew on.  Cant find that stuff in the astroid belt.

>Nice eye candy, but it would have taken a big crane to suspend my disbelief
>over that one, and the grating propaganda got on my nerves bigtime...
>
>        Now Mars Attacks!, on the other hand, was brilliant.  I hope that
>the bozos responsible for ID4 saw it and experienced what all true hacks
>feel in the presence of towering genius.  Mars Attacks! is, IMHO, the
>ultimate alien invasion flick.  It's done the genre; it's the epitome of
>it's type; everything else after it can only be pale imitation...

I didn't actually get to see Mars Attacks, but from the previews it was
completly in correct.  Earthlings don't have a clue what Martians are like.
 First they are not warfaring, they are the most pacifist society this side
of the Antares Grate.  Secondly they are not short and green.  They are
long and thin, averging 2.5m in height, and are execellent basketball
players.  Their skin color is a ruddy brown, much like the Martian surface.  

They dwell in an underground clan-caste system of adobe style villas and
are currently about in Traveller Terms, tech level 3. They however do
possess a device, clearly not made by them that they use to prevent outside
involvement.  Viking caught them by surpise, but they were read for Mars
Explorer.

Maybe now Martians will be described and treated with the respect they
deserve.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 08:52:20 -0500 (EST)
From: SirBStard@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Traveller Creed

In a message dated 97-02-25 22:55:37 EST, you write:

<<  From:	cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
 > For the truly orthodox, among whom I count myself (-:, that article should
 > be:
 > 
 > We believe in one die,_ black_, with six sides and _red_ spots.
 
 Adapted from the Creed of the Gnostic Catholic Church, I proudly present:
 
    The Traveller Creed
 
 I believe in one secret and ineffable Game, and in one future history in
 the multiverse of future histories
  >>

 Oh no, not another one.  Hope that sacrements are not involved. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:49:24 -0600
From: "David Reed" <david@techrefuge.com>
Subject: Break CharGen, then...  (was Re: Apples and oranges?)

> From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Apples and oranges?
> Date: Wednesday, February 26, 1997 1:58 AM

> debate. I do have an opinion on people who think the Real World (tm) can
be
> accurately modeled by 6 integers which range from 1 to 15; they need to
get
> out more.

*snicker*

> My only complaint about the T4 task system is that it is not fun. The
> existing task system penalizes players who made one bad roll in character
> generation and makes superhumans of characters who happen to have made a
> good roll. The existing task system makes characters who are superior in

As a GM, it is incumbent upon YOU to make sure that this DOES NOT happen...
 If this is really a problem then BREAK THE CHARGEN rules, do not let them
break you.

Try these:

1.  Assign 36 + 2D points to attributes.

2.  Assign 5 + 1D to EACH attribute.

3.  Start everyone with what we call "tournament-style" characters.

All three should *stomp* the low rollers and the high rollers alike.  The
first gives more similarity in numbers, the second gives a broader range
while still preventing "unplayable" [The author believes there is no such
thing.  -ed.] characters...  And the third is my personal favorite: it's
easier to tailor a character for the campaign, as well as for the person
involved!

> simulate warfare, yet it is a very enjoyable game. The issue, to me, is
> that the existing task system detracts from my and my players' enjoyment
of
> the game.

Bummer.  You can come play in my game: we have "tons o' fun".

"Rules?  We ain't got no stinkin' rules.  We don' need no stinkin' rules!"
__________________________________________________________________________

David Reed  ***  david@techrefuge.com   ***   May Microsoft be with you...
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:41:59 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Dice Orthodoxy

>Lesser beings!  Who among you has the holiest of holies, the
>black 6-sided dice with the Imperial Sunburst in the "one" spot?
>
>I'd love to see Imperium Games sell those again!  I only got two of them, and
>Lord knows I could use more.
>
>Steve Charlton
>High Archpriest
>Holy and Benelovent Order of the Twin Imperial Dice

Do they in fact exist? Black, with the Imperial sunburst in red without the
tiffany star?
How much are they. Where do I get them ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:46:53 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Q: CSC

Hi folks!

Has anybody got/used the CSC yet? I just ordered it from an Austrian
Gaming Company and am keen to know how it is arranged (Just for the time
until it's delivered, which can last up to one week, depending on how
fast the company is).

Are the articles, that the Traveller can buy, ordered by TL? Are there
Price-Modifiers for TLs?

I always wonder how one can calculate, what price articles of a certain
TL has on worlds with different TLs. Are there any clues in this book?

TIA
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:55:05 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: In-system Traveller?

> From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>

> Have any of you run a Traveller campaign that took place entirely within
> one star system?  

        Yes, although I have to admit that was when I started Traveller....
all was built around ideas taken out of Character Generation (the old, only
6 careers...)
        (Non-standard subsector)
        Planet: Somewhere, inhabitable, two hundred millions pop.
        (it's a name: sounds not stupid when you play in Spanish)
        Plot: retired army generals are developing an underground criminal
net which threats to become the true power in the system. Ex-military
Characters get contracted as undercover law enforcers and the referee uses
the whole plot to develop the "civilian" character type.
        Second planet in the system: Nowhere, colony, not inhabitable.
Prison, Mining facilities, military training camps, secret criminal
facilities. Players go there from time to time.
        The campaign lasted around six months, and it was real fun. So it
can be done.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:59:03 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

At 02:18 am 02/26/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->
>> 
>> Welcome to the outer darkness.
>> 
>> Eris
>
>Damn, Eris.  You make me want to be a heretic again.  You make it 
>sound so neat.


	<Chhhh>Feel your rage <chhhh><chhhh>Give in to the power ... of the Dark
Side<chhh><chhh>
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:54:26 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Skills versus Attributes

At 09:39 pm 02/25/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> 	Here's an idea for JoaT. Instead of letting you substitute JoaT for
>
>Dave, you have done a wonderful job on this.  I think that I'll use 
>this from now on.


	(* Blush *). Why thanks! And my licensing fees are QUITE reasonable ...

>This TML thing is just a caldron of creative thought.  You should 
>send your idea to Marc.  I think that this puts JOT back into the 
>place it was originally intended to be.

	I believe the almighty is actually listening to this list ...

>It doesn't give characters a skill.  What it does is give characters 
>a chance.  And, I can see them having to make the JOT roll you cited 
>each and every time they try to use JOT to get them out of a jam.

	Exactly! It allows them an out of a sticky situation, without becoming
overwhelmingly powerful.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:11:13 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

Along these lines, can anyone tell me which (entirely minor) war game used
SPI, AH, TSR, FGU, and probably others in its rules as the names of warring
corporations?  If you know this one, you've _really_ been playing too much...


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:16:19 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: MT-Careers

At 12:22 PM 2/27/97 -0800, Harald Budschedl wrote:
>Mike Sellers wrote:
>> 
>> I did a variety of Scientist careers for CT a number of years ago,
>> including Xenobiologist, Archeologist, Physicist, Sophontocist (replaces
>> psychologist :) ).  If I still have these I'll post them to the TML if
>> anyone is interested.
>> 
>Yea! Post it! [greed, greed ;-) ]

Haven't found them yet, but I'll post them if I do.

However, I *did* find some old CT ship designs and deck plans, including
the TL15 Basilisk and TL15 "Heart's Desire."  These I may convert to T4 and
post (or wait for a no-holds-barred THUDDD :) ).


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:29:05 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

Someone posted an excellent idea about handwaving the week long jumptide.
The idea was an analog to the fact that if you drill a hole through earth
(or rather a homogenous sphere) and fell frictionless the time to fall
would be the same no matter what the angle.

This sounds far better than the "cooling" of jumpgrid as there should be
enormous investments made into alternative =A8cooling techniques et c if tha=
t
was a fact. There should also be rules for longer jumps at lower Tls or did
the first J-drive inventors also stumble on the perfect cooling principle
right away? The first mentioned idea rules out any change in jumptime from
a physics standpoint. The latter theory smells like a Nilsen ploy where you
make a "small" change in the game universe wihout thinking out the
ramifications and it also sounds a bit like "steam punk handwaving".

You're all entitled to your views and if I sound like coming down hard on
the guy who thought out the cooling idea I'm sorry.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:26:02 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> I wrote:
> > Actually in my game I have taken this even further, to help explain
> > what the heck the engineers are doing during jump...  In my game
> > the jump grid doesn't cool evenly.  In fact, the larger the grid,
> > the more problems you have with keeping the grid even.  This means
> > that on a 100 ton ship, checks every 8 or 9 hours are sufficient
> > to keep things kosher (assuming it's in good shape), but a 200 ton
> > ship requires checks every 4 or 5 hours, and buy the time you get
> > to a 50KdT warship, a full engineering watch is required 24 hours
> > a day to keep the grid balanced as it cools.  Hmm, does this help
> > explain the standard ship crew requirements?
> 
> This makes a whole lot of sense to me and is a good extension of
> Glenn's explanation.
> 
> I think that I'll start using it, too.  Tell me, how do you come up
> with the check times?

Ummm... Fudge factor?  I haven't formalized it, and since my players
have had exactly one ship since, a 200dT Far Trader. I haven't done 
more than say, "check the jump grid every 4-5 hours".  If one of 
the gearheads decided to take the idea and run with it, I'd love it.

Douglas McCorison

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:27:29 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: Break CharGen, then...  (was Re: Apples and oranges?)

David Reed wrote:
> 
> > From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
> > My only complaint about the T4 task system is that it is not fun. The
> > existing task system penalizes players who made one bad roll in character
> > generation and makes superhumans of characters who happen to have made a
> > good roll. The existing task system makes characters who are superior in
> 
> As a GM, it is incumbent upon YOU to make sure that this DOES NOT happen...

Yes.
For me, this complaint sounds strange. THAT'S HOW LIFE IS! I can't
complain about life, just because I am naturally impatient (which is in
fact one of my personal probs).
In real life I don't have another chance to roll better Endurance. I
have to learn patience, which means in Traveller terms, that I have to
build up Endurance. This is in fact far more difficult than learning
skills, based on Endurance. And this is exactly how T4 works. And that's
why I like it.
So I just can congratulate Marc and the guys who made T4. They did a
real good job, and I hope that esp. Marc doesn't get too frustrated
about so many peoples complaining about it. I think he must feel like a
father, who's baby becomes beaten up.

Regards
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:21:23 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Dates and authors of articles (was Re: Milieu 0...)

>"Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:

>Milieu 0 covers the period 0 through 199.  Milieu 200 picks up at 200 and 
>will presumably cover the period until the next Milieu book (whatever 
>that will be).  If you want a "publication date" for it, to pretend it is 
>an Imperial Publication of some sort (like the old CT adventures with 
>their official dates), assuming sometime around year 40 would probably be 
>okay.

        Well, if it can be assumed that year 40 is the publication date, it
does not seem possible to take Milieu Zero as covering the whole 0-199
period, right?
        As a personal opinion, I should say that I prefer, for publication,
the "fictional author/date" approach taken by DGP in V&V and S&A. I prefer
each article with a specific in-game publication date, and pretended author.
This way, it becomes usable background material. E.g., at the moment I am
writing some game documents covering the whole Geonee history ;-). The
first, to be used with the Milieu zero setting covers from prehistory to
around year zero and is supposedly written by a Sylean archaeologist and
published in Sylea in imperial Year 30. The second, to be used with the
Rebellion setting covers from year zero to 1100, will be signed by a
historian and was supposedly published in Massilia sector in 1110. The
third, to be used with the New Era setting, covers from 1116 to 1200 and is
supposed to be extracted from a history textbook from the Third Geonee
Confederation.
        IMHO, this approach helps to create "game atmosphere".
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:45:28 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Followup to FS/M0 Subsector Names...

FKiesche@concentric.net wrote:
MASSILIA SECTOR
A--Kerr
B--Arar
C--Khisham
D--Zalucha
E--Keum
F--Vaait
G--Forquee
H--Palasha
I--Ten Suns
J--Shiwenee         =>>>>> Typing error, should be Shiwonee
   ^^^^^^^^
K--Nes'Vra
L--Tooka
M--Annari
N--Shokee
O--Shimmer
P--Oreo

        Anyway, I'm not sure those subsector names can be "safely" used in
Milieu Zero. Shiwonee is named after the Geonee homeworld, but in First
Survey the name of the system is changed to Asadug.
        Heretic Theory: In First Survey/Milieu Zero times, many star systems
have names in the maps that do not correspond to local names. Scouts visit
the system and assign one name they can easily pronounce, or use the name
they had from old Vilani maps. During the next thousand years, local names
slowly spread to become the ones in the "official" maps.
        And so, the people from Shiwonee always called their world Shiwonee,
but the Sylean Scouts just put an old Vilani name on the map (Asadug). But
subsector names are even more probable to have been set arbitrarily by
scouts at the beginning. And, in Milieu zero, as they have still little
political meaning (lots of independent worlds, etc.), few people cares.
        Notice three "Geonee-like" names in Massilia subsector names.
Forquee, Shiwonee, and Shokee. If the scouts are not systematically using
the local names for planets, it seems not very probable that these are also
official, imperial subsector names in Milieu zero. Some old Vilani names or
new Sylean words ar eplaced on the maps, and they get changed over the
centuries until we get the 1100 names we are familiar with.
        Probably, the idea of "subsectors" would even be strange in some
worlds or... subsectors <G>. Maybe other confederacys/empires are using
different methods to cut the space into pieces, specially if they are not in
the center of a subsector. One prefers a map showing all own surroundings,
right? If you have a pocket empire of eight worlds at the "bottom" of a
subsector and another world at the "top" of the contiguous subsector, why
should you use two subsector maps? Use a single map of your worlds and all
other worlds in a 10-parsec radius. Put the subsector concept in the thrash.
(Btw, guess which pocket empire I am speaking about <G>)
        
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1001
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 27 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 1002



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jack of all Trades Proposal
Re: A dice by any other name
Humor (was Roswell incident)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1000
Re: CT "Broadsword" Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5 Version)
USD-ICr
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: Characteristics
Re: Dice Orthodoxy
Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?
Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)
RE: Roswell Incident
Re: What does TSR stand for? (They Sue Regularly?)
Re: MT-Careers
Re: Old foggies quiz
Re: USD-ICr
Mileau 0 data
Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)
Re: Roswell Incident
Docking Rings vs Grapples

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:55:48 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: Jack of all Trades Proposal

I've been using KBv1.1 Task system generally.  However I did run
into a little problem with my lady, who has lots of brains and
uses them all (which BTW makes her a good player!).  I set up char 
gen to allow some choice for the players.  For each skill, they may 
either roll for table & choose skill, or choose table and roll for 
skill.  Well, my lady rolled for table and chose JoT every chance 
she got.  OK, her personality is JoT in Real Life (TM) so it's
not too surprising.  Her character has JoT 5, and that's just the
largest.  I've got 2 or 3 other characters with JoT 3 or greater.  
This quickly showed me that JoT could not be used as a standard 
skill under KBv1.1.  I have made the following changes:

	Default skills use Att/3 as base target number.  This 
simulates the initial jump from unskilled to skilled fairly well
with a T# difference of 1-3 points based on attribute.

	JoT adds to the default skill T# without multiplication.
This means that two points of JoT are equivalent to 1 point of 
other skills in a skill.  This still means that with JoT 5, her
character is often still better off using JoT than a skill until
the skill is 2.

	Another thought I've been having is splitting JoT effects.
If JoT would allow a roll that would otherwise not be allowed, 
i.e. pilot.  The JoT roll is to even GET a roll, followed by 
a roll at Default level (Att/3).  This means that their JoT roll
is to figure out what to do, but it doesn't actually help them do 
it.

Comments?

Douglas McCorison

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:57:29 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name

Harold signed:

>Harold (using D20s, D10s, *and* D6s to play Traveller and loving every
>minute of it)

        You reminded me of the fun I had for a whole year... every play
session, when I unpacked the materials, I dropped behind my Referee's screen
several D10s, D20s and other funny things... We were playing by D6 alone,
and I never explained my players what the other dice where for. I regularly
throwed them when I was thinking, paying absolutely no attention to the
results, and used D6s to the real throws. My players where all the campaign
thinking that I had tons of new rules to decide what was happening around
them, and that was useful to preserve a sense of wonder... <G>.

        Carlos.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:08:12 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Humor (was Roswell incident)

>Harold D. Hale wrote:
> P.S.  This discussion does raise an interesting point though.  What do
> Vilani see when they watch Terran/Solomani entertainment programs?
> Would they laugh at the same things?  How much of humor (love, etc.) is
> universal and how much of it is cultural?

        Humor seems to be cultural in a high percentage. One theory about
humor is that you laugh because you feel superior to the characters
portrayed in the history. So, it appeals directly to your value scale, what
do you thing "superior" means. A Vilani will feel superior to any Solomani
trying to do things alone when cooperating with a group would make things
better. Probably, the Solomani character will be a regular of the Vilani
humor shows. They will tell thousands of "Solomani jokes". ("Why the
Solomani do not read? Because other person has written the book!").
Conversely, The Vilani would make good humorous characters at Solomani
shows, and there would be thousands of Vilani jokes. (How many "Vilani does
it take to change a light bulb? Hundred and one. One to do the job, and one
hundred to fill up the required formulars").
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:48:38 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1000

>>I've found some other problems, too, but I think that gets the point
>>across.  Let's just say that I'm not terribly impressed with the 
>>integration of the map for the new sourcebook.
>
>I can only apologise that when we were writing M0, IG did not make the FS
>data available to us (despite our repeated requests) nor was it clear how
>many sectors FS was to cover. If we had received the necessary information
>we could have checked Core for inconsistencies with M0 and I'd have made
>damned sure the Gushmege data tied up with The Long Way Home! :-)
>
>Andy

I don't think you need to apologize, Andy. The fault seems to lay in poor
corrdination of projects on the part of IG and perhaps time pressures
preventing Marc from sharing exactly what his plans were for First Survey.
        Myself, I'm going to use FS the way it was originally meant to be
used; I'll be filling in the Player Data with the numbers I want to use, and
basically ignoring the Referee's Data entirely.

SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT.....................................................



One of the very real problems I saw immediatley when I looked at FS was
that, for an area of space supposedly recovering from a Long Night, there
are an awful lot of spaceflight level civilizations, A and B class
starports, and absolutely NO X class ports in any of the 9 sectors detailed
in the book (or at least I haven't found any). I guess I was expecting
something a LITTLE more along the lines of what the collapsed sectors of TNE
looked like; a fair number of dead worlds, lots of places with D and E class
ports, and a number of X's. There's one worls listed in the Core Sector that
has NO population (Pop 0 Pop Mutliplier 0) but a B class port and a TL of B!
How do you come up with that?? There are more X class ports in the Core
Sector in year 1115 than in Year 0! I have to say that aside from the maps
and the player data, the rest of First Survey will not be of great use to me.

Mileau 0 was a wonderful read, bursting with Traveller history and the joy
of discovering new information. But it says (for instance) that half of the
worlds the Scouts encountered were dead. Sure can't tell that from the
sector data. They must have one hell of a Recovery program in Year 0...


Sorry to criticize, but I had very high hopes for these products. These
discrepancies should have been caught in the editing process! Tony Lee
edited First Survey (but admittedly probably only took what Marc gave him);
Lester Smith edited Mileau 0. Between these two gentlemen, someone should
have caught the discrepancies between these two products.

I'll be honest; IG needs to slow down their release schedule and go over
these books in much more detail. I'd rather have a well-done, consistent
product every other month than what happened with these two books.


Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 09:21:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: CT "Broadsword" Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5 Version)

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Mark Clark wrote:

> 
> CT "Broadsword" Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5 Version)
SNIP
> ....  The crew is twice as large (partially because CT treats the
> small craft operators as passengers), so there is less cargo room (only

Actually, since the combat pilots WOULD be part of the mercenary company,
you could treat them as passengers.

Having small craft pilots as crew members is only if the small craft are
part of the ship, rather than attatched to the passengers, as in this
case.

I know it gets all muddled when you realize that _everyone_ on board this
thing is technically crew, since these ships would probably be permanently
part of a specific company, it's just the distinction between Navy and
Marines on a real assault landing ship, or carrier; if there are support
aircraft on board one of those, they're flown by Marine pilots, not navy
ones.

That would alleviate a lot of the cargo problems you're seeing.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:39:01 +0100
From: Helmer Jensen <Helmer@netg.se>
Subject: USD-ICr

Does anybody on the list remember how many USD an Imperial Credit is
worth? (in MT if it makes any differance) I think it is either 1 USD or
3 USD, bt I=B4m not certain.

//Helmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 08:37:44 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

At 04:29 PM 2/27/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>Someone posted an excellent idea about handwaving the week long jumptide.
>The idea was an analog to the fact that if you drill a hole through earth
>(or rather a homogenous sphere) and fell frictionless the time to fall
>would be the same no matter what the angle.

Uh, what?  If you drill through a sphere along a diameter, the "angle" is
of no consequence; it may not even have any meaning.  I don't see how this
relates to jump-time.  

>This sounds far better than the "cooling" of jumpgrid as there should be
>enormous investments made into alternative cooling techniques etc if that
>was a fact. 

Maybe there is, but you have to get to TL17 before you see it.  By analogy,
there's been a lot of research into alternative power sources for cars at
our TL, but nothing really successful yet -- for all its faults, gasoline
still has by far the most optimal power/weight/cost combination.  

>There should also be rules for longer jumps at lower Tls or did
>the first J-drive inventors also stumble on the perfect cooling principle
>right away? 

More likely, like many (real) physical processes, there is a threshold
activation energy required to make a jump at all.  Early jump research
finally hit on the amount of energy required (too little and nothing
happens, too much and ... boom), the flow rate required to build up the
energy fast enough but not too fast, and the structures, mechanisms, and
processes required (e.g., the right grid "cooled" the right way) to
successfully create a stable jump, getting more than fast neutrinos on the
other end.  Once all _that_ was done, fine tuning this technological leap
to provide approximately 1 parsec jumps was more a matter for the engineers
than the theoretical physicists (who, I'm sure, are still arguing about the
precise underpinnings of jump physics).  

>The first mentioned idea rules out any change in jumptime from
>a physics standpoint. 

No, that's true only at TL14-15 (but who knows, maybe some TL15 corps
actually have some things up their sleeves).  As research progresses, you
might expect to see all kinds of advances in jump technology.  That's one
of the advantages of a strong pseudo-scientific explanation: it gives you
places to take the technology in your campaign.  

>The latter theory smells like a Nilsen ploy where you
>make a "small" change in the game universe wihout thinking out the
>ramifications and it also sounds a bit like "steam punk handwaving".

Well, for you maybe.  If you have a different and equally compelling
explanation, that's cool.  One person's handwaving is another's profound
theoretical statement (I think even Newton, Bohr, Einstein, and Hawking
might agree with that! :) ).  

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:59:07 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Characteristics

>Right!  I haven't heard *anyone* advocate making attributes unimportant.
>Just somewhat *less* important than they are right now.

Well, I'm that *anyone*. The attribute governs the ability to learn the
skill. The higher the attribute the faster you learn and and the higher the
limit where study time zooms skyward. The skill level accurately describes
the skill of the person as the name skill level implies.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 97  9:40:23 MS
From: Steve Charlton/IFSNA <Steve_Charlton@Avalon.COM>
Subject: Re: Dice Orthodoxy

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net) said:

>I'm not sure of the status of the company, but Zocci Distributors was 
>selling Traveller dice up to about six months ago. These were black D6's, 
>with the Imperial Starburst and a "computer font" number (1 through 6, 
>natch) on the starburst in red.

>(The reason I say "I'm not sure of the status of the company" is that I 
>believe that Zocchi has shut down and somebody else--Chessex???--has 
>taken over the distribution...)

Lou Zocchi et al gone?  What's the gaming world coming to?  Maybe I should take 
these rumors of TSR's pending demise more seriously.

I got my dice many years ago, like 1981.  I got two of them with my first set 
of Black Books.  I've had to replace the Black Books due to wear, but the dice 
are still around.  I only use them for Character Generation rolls, though.  My 
players fear these dice.  Then again, they fear my quart-jar filled with 
red-pipped black dice, too.

Steve Charlton
Yes, I bought a T-Shirt
Yes, I probably will get a Mousepad
No, I really have no actual life of my own...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 09:57:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, John P. Raynor wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Eric Freitas wrote:
> > There is some speculation that the NERVA rocket was used in a 
> > flight testbed in Texas.  There was UFO (Note, I didn't say Martian
SNIP
> This sounds a *LOT* like something I read about in "Scientific American" a
> while ago: a supersonic, low-altitude, robotic bomber, powered by an
> atomic ram-jet (essentially an unshielded fission reactor).  According to

Well, since the DOD already owns a huge expanse of Nevada desert for the
express purpose of being radioactive, I doubt they'd do it over Texas, and
certainly not over public roads (too easy for the Commies to watch, eh
Roderick?) when they could do it out in the stinking desert

Second, SciAm puts out a CD-rom index with abstracts of all their issues
back to the early 40's, I think...this is something that would have
appeared in the 60's or 70's after the original work was declassified.

Surely SOMEONE out there in TML land has this index or access to it?
 
Bruce Johnson University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:56:38 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

David J. Golden writes:
>>>probability curves and task rules, we possibly do.  Just consider
>>>it an Article of Faith in the Traveller's Creed ("We believe in one
>>>die, with six sides and spots") and leave it at that.
>>
>>   Well, I guess I'll have to found a schism or sumthin'. Anybody else
>>wanna join me in eternal damnation?
>
>and Eris writes:
>>Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->
>>
>>Welcome to the outer darkness.

Harold said:
>I'm the third in this unholy alliance I guess.  Gee, if we could just
>cause another person to give up his or her immortal soul, we could be
>the Four Horseman of the Apocalyse!  Can I be War, please huh? please!

	You can be War but only if I can be Pestilence!  Considering the
way he's eating these days, David should probably be Famine. Eris, that
makes you Death. ;-)
	Speaking as someone who believes that the advanced ship combat 
system should be based on _percentile_ dice, I am firmly in the heretic 
camp.  
	Having to roll handfulls of dice for everything is just a
nuisance.  I liked the 2300AD combat system that used D10s.  You could
resolve the entire attack in one roll by using three dice of different
colors, one for to-hit, one for location, one for damage. 

Happy Travelling, whatever dice you use.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 09:01:42 -0800
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: RE: Roswell Incident

On Wednesday, February 26, 1997 10:05 PM, Harold D.
Hale[SMTP:hdhale@siscom.net] wrote:
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:44:47 -0800
> From:  <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
> Subject: 
> 
> Anders Backman wrote:
> > 
> > >Last year, ID4 was released on 3 July 1996.
> > >
> > >This was _not_ a coincindence.
> > 
> > It _was_ a coincidence, July 3 was the day before July 4 when all
americans
> > frolic and celebrate their "great" nation as was portrayed in the film.
> > 
> 
> <spoiler warning!>
> 
>    Wrong.  The film takes place starting on the 50th anniversary of the
> Roswell Incident and concludes on July 4th.  As it turns out the Roswell
> Incident involved one of their scouting parties, which left a
> scout/fighter craft behind.  Assuming near C travel, the aliens were 25
> light years (more or less) away and came to rape Earth of its adundant
> resources.

I think that if extraterrestrials were to invade and pillage our planet,
it would be very hard to understand what they really wanted.

	"So a three mile cluster of trees from mars has settled down on the
Kalihari Desert and are making small oblisks out of the sand?  Is this
their idea of 'raping the Earth?'  If it is, they have some
incomprehensibly kinky sexual practices..."

	"Damn Aliens... They landed, melted every car in the town into a puddle
and took them."

	"What are they demanding?"
	"47.62 hours of continuous music; specifically Elvis's "Jailhouse Rock"
 and Tuvan throat singing"

	"They're mining the asteroid belt, building giant solar panels and
orbiting them around the sun in a belt just beyond the orbit of
Mercury!"

	My point being, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between
being raped by aliens or by a large tree.

Jeffrey Cornish

> 
>    Apparently no one told the aliens that everything they could get here
> was available in our asteroid belt, and they could have mined it without
> having to worry about a run in with the natives.
> 
> Harald Budschedl wrote:
> 
> >Yea, yea. And again THEY have to save everybody. And of course even
> >their president climbs into the jet and joins the dogfight. Yea, yea ..
> 
>    The Americans may have figured out how to kill the aliens, but it was
> up to the other countries of the world to do most of the fighting.  I
> knew it was all over for the aliens when I saw the scene where the Iraqi
> and Israeli pilots were working together to prepare for the final
> mission.  Anytime you see Iraqis and Israelis agreeing on being your
> common enemy, surrender NOW.
> 
>    As for the President, he was a decorated pilot from the Gulf War. 
> Since this was supposed to be a kind of Last Stand, you would expect
> that *anyone* who could fly an airplane straight would be handed the key
> to a brand new Hornet.  Besides, it's not like other heads of state
> haven't lead their armies into battle before.
> 
> >Most american "hollywood-type" films are pure propaganda. When I see
> >these films I feel remembered of old clips of the "Deutsche
> >Wochenschau". I mean: how naive can one be, to like or even believe
> >that, nowadays?
> 
>    Right.  Better that all movies involve people sitting around in a
> dimly lit room discussing their inner angst, or some deep seated social
> concern that is troubling them to the point of suicide or apathy.  Lord
> knows that Monty Python reaches me at numerous emotional levels, some I
> can only barely perceive in a semi-concious way.  
> 
>    Look, the plot has holes large enough in it to drive a lorry (truck)
> through.  Parts of the film are not particularly realistic, though the
> special effects are in a word, tremendous.  Propaganda?  You're
> assumption is that Hollywood films are written and produced with the
> idea of turning everyone into Americans.  If only the pseudo fine arts
> crowd in Hollywood was bright enough to conceive of such a conspiracy!  
> 
>    ID4 was created for American audiences.  If you as a citizen of
> another country found it entertaining, wonderful, if not, well...you
> weren't the target audience anyway.  I didn't get some of the political
> humor references in the old Benny Hill series (created for British TV)
> either, but then those jokes weren't put in for Americans anyway.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Harold
> 
> P.S.  This discussion does raise an interesting point though.  What do
> Vilani see when they watch Terran/Solomani entertainment programs? 
> Would they laugh at the same things?  How much of humor (love, etc.) is
> universal and how much of it is cultural?
> 
> -h

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:17:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: What does TSR stand for? (They Sue Regularly?)

Damn, all this talk of those three little books is making me want to dust
off my D&D campaign....it's been a looooong time...

I really like Traveller, but you always remember your first RPG game with
a certain fondness.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:04:22 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: MT-Careers

Mike Sellers wrote:
> 
> However, I *did* find some old CT ship designs and deck plans, including
> the TL15 Basilisk and TL15 "Heart's Desire."  These I may convert to T4 and
> post (or wait for a no-holds-barred THUDDD :) ).

You could post the stuff you have. I'm always on the lookout for
ship designs that come with deckplans. I run MT but I'll use CT
stuff without guilt.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 09:11:43 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

At 10:56 PM 2/27/97 +1300, you wrote:
>Okay, so having determined the arcane meaning of TSR, who can
>answer the following?
>
>what does FASA stand for?

Freedonian AeroSpace Administration

>what does SPI stand for?

Strategic Publications, Inc.

>What were SPI's RPG's called?

Universe and Dragonsomething-or-the-other

>What was GDW noted for before traveller?

Europa

>What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?

2D6

>What was the Chaosium's magazine dedicated to RuneQuest?

Wyrm's Footnotes

>What does SORAG mean?

Can't remember the acronym, but the Zhodani intellegence service, from
Paranoia Press

>Who was Gigi D'Arn?

Rumor columnist for Different Worlds magazine

>What issue did JTAS start using colour?

Full color?  Issue 13 IIRC

>Who produced C&S?

Fantasy Games Unlimited (FGU)

>What was GDW's modern minatures rules called?

Command Decision

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:21:39 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: USD-ICr

Helmer Jensen wrote:
> 
> Does anybody on the list remember how many USD an Imperial Credit is
> worth? (in MT if it makes any differance) I think it is either 1 USD or
> 3 USD, bt I4m not certain.
> 
> //Helmer

I always used $2 equals Cr1. When I thought of that one, I was 
playing CT and the vehicle prices seemed to fit that ratio.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:54:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Mileau 0 data

Andy sent:

> (b) The low statistics for the Confederacy ("centered on three powerful
> worlds: Marsus, Protalus, and Sketola (the capital).") could be regarded as
> their statistics after having been subdued by the Imperium, i.e. starports
> reduced significantly (perhaps the higher class stuff still exists at A or B
> but is only available to Imperial military ships). Such states might well be
> left half-disabled and isolated for many years while the Imperium worked to
> expand sufficiently that it could *economically* afford to fully integrate
> these previously *hostile* worlds into the Imperium.
 
In the Travellers Digest the Confederacy had more or less joined the 
Imperium by year 0, the poor state of the worlds is probably reflected by 
the fact that Confederacy worlds had been defecting to the Sylean 
Federation for decades (or longer)


> >...and as for Keshi/Dunea and their "militaristic rulers with their now-
> >superior technology":
> >  Keshi      1938 B566200-7   Lo           114
> >A hundred people at tech-7 with no government?  I don't think so.
> 
Keshi gained its importance because it maintained Jump Drive tech during 
the long night, and conquered the worlds within 5 parsecs of it. It's 
year 0 UWP could be due to the fact that the Rulers of Keshi transferred 
their power base to other worlds of the Kingdom. Keshi could be a sort of 
Buckingham Palace, or Forbidden 'City' for the Chanestin Royals. In this 
case the pop modifier represents the Royal population, with the tech 
modifier inconsequential as most of the tech is imported from the 
powerhouse Chanestin worlds.

Hope this helps,

Eamon  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)

In-Reply-To: <33146762.41C67EA6@camax.com>

<< Actually in my game I have taken this even further, to help explain 
what the heck the engineers are doing during jump...  In my game 
the jump grid doesn't cool evenly.  In fact, the larger the grid,
the more problems you have with keeping the grid even.  This means
that on a 100 ton ship, checks every 8 or 9 hours are sufficient
to keep things kosher (assuming it's in good shape), but a 200 ton
ship requires checks every 4 or 5 hours, and buy the time you get
to a 50KdT warship, a full engineering watch is required 24 hours 
a day to keep the grid balanced as it cools >>

Nice idea. What happens if you don't cool it evenly?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Roswell Incident

In-Reply-To: <33138959.2B9D@inreach.com>

> >         Can anybody give me the date on which the alleged Roswell Incident
> > is supposed to have taken place?
> 
> My understanding is July 2, 1946. 

Not sure of the date, but the year was '47.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 12:44:34 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Docking Rings vs Grapples

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>QSDS has 'External Craft Grapples'...aren't those the same as 'Docking
>Rings?'
 
No they are different things.  Docking Rings contain the subcraft
entirely inside the main ship. External Ships bolt the subcraft onto the outside.  

When the subcraft isn't in its Docking Ring, they look like a big hole
in the hull, which is the exact size of the subcraft. 

The Life Pod in Star Wars in which the Droids evacuate the Princess'
Ship would be in a docking ring.

The Space Shuttle's Booster Rockets would be in Grapples.




Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is yellow, smooth and deadly?
A:Shark infested pudding.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1002
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 27 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 1003



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Chronology of RPG's (WAY off-topic)
Re: Characteristics
Re: A dice by any other name
Re: Jumps fixed at one week
Re: One System Games
Re: USD-ICr
Bonus Points revoked!
Re: the famous week-long jump
ID4 Spoiler Addendum
RE: Roswell Incident
Re: Blackmoor (getting even further off topic on the TML)
Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)
Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)
ID4 and Americans 
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: Bonus Points revoked!
First Survey Comments
Re: Fuzzy Dice
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: Old foggies quiz

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:50:41 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Chronology of RPG's (WAY off-topic)

As taken from HEROIC WORLDS:

1974:   Original Dungeons and Dragons

1975:   Boot Hill
        En Garde
        Tunnells and Trolls (which was written IN REACTION to D&D)
        Greyhawk (first printing)

1976    Starfaring (first SFRPG, based on T&T, thankfully dead)
        Metamorphosis Alpha (came out AFTER Starfaring by about two weeks)
        Monsters! Monsters!
        Knights of the Round Table
        City-State of the Invincible Overlord (First Judges Guild product)

1977    Superhero: 2044
        D&D basic set
        Melee/Wizard (designed by Steve Jackson)
        AD&D Monster Manual
        and of course...TRAVELLER

1978    Runequest
        Gamma World               
        Starships and Spacemen (first Star Trek rip-off)
        
1979    Bushido
        Adventures in Fantasy
        High Fantasy
        Villians and Vigilantes
        Gangster
        Commando

1980    SPACE OPERA (I have a first edition copy; defintiley from 1980)
        Top Secret
        Morrow Project (first postholocaust game)
        Dragonquest
        The Fantasy Trip (Advanced Melee, Wizard, and In the Labyrinth)

That pretty much covers the early days. These of course were not the only
RPG's to debut in the listed years, just the major ones.

I did this to clear up two glaring errors: T&T did NOT predate AD&D. Ken St.
Andre said in an interview I read that he created T&T when he read the
original D&D rules and decided he could do better. And Space Opera
definitley did NOT come out at the same time as Traveller. In fact, as it
was for every other sci-fi game of the time, Traveller was the standard
against which Space Opera was attempting to compete.

I'd like to see Traveller once again become the standard...

Allen        

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:20:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Characteristics

> Well, I'm that *anyone*. The attribute governs the ability to learn the
> skill. The higher the attribute the faster you learn and and the higher the
> limit where study time zooms skyward. The skill level accurately describes
> the skill of the person as the name skill level implies.

If the skill level accurately describes the skill of the person, are
any two skill_3 people at the same level of skill?  I would actually
say no--but they have the same training.

Using the T4 (or something close) system, the attribute+skill_level
is how well you actually do at a given task.  I would use the skill
level alone to determine how hard that task is.  Within a given
skill level, the person with the best innate ability will do better.

Skills represent training, IMO, not ability.  Characters with an
average attribute may choose to familiarize themselves with a subject
in order to compensate for a low attribute---the problem is that in
the T4 task system, this doesn't really pay off... that's what
started the thread, right?

Again, I'm not sure that task system is broken badly if you craft your
tasks right.  So, you want a task to be Difficult?  Difficult for
what level of skill?  Is the base level the same for all people
regardless of training?  Even the skill-0 penalties aren't enough
for some stuff.  An Engineering task might be Easy for any Eng2+
person, but even half atribute for a skill 0 person might
overestimate their chances of doing the Easy fix to the Jdrive.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:21:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name

 >>>Just consider it an Article of Faith in the Traveller's Creed ("We
believe in one die, with six sides and spots") and leave it at that.

Well, I guess I'll have to found a schism or sumthin'. Anybody else wanna
join me in eternal damnation?

and Eris writes:

Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->
Welcome to the outer darkness.

 I'm the third in this unholy alliance I guess.  Gee, if we could just cause
another person to give up his or her immortal soul, we could be the Four
Horseman of the Apocalyse!  Can I be War, please huh? please!

Regards,

Harold (using D20s, D10s, *and* D6s to play Traveller and loving every
minute of it)<<<

There have been times when I've needed my old d20 to make rolls on
probability tables that I've constructed. Also, there's no better way to
represent the #'s 1 - 10 equally. I DO prefer d6's and almost always use
them. The d20 gives me that extra bit of flexibility as a GM.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:21:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jumps fixed at one week

>>>I guess some people want a little more explaination than "it's that way 
'cuz Marc said so". Me, I've always advocated not changing the rules 
unless there's a darn good reason, and back when Ken had crazy ideas 
about basing jump times on the power of the drive, he said something like 
"unless someone can come up with a logical pseudo-scientific 
explanation..."

Not being one to turn down a challenge, and also wincing at the "heresy" 
Ken was committing by changing the one week rule Marc handed down from on 
high, upon which all of Traveller history was based, I expounded my 
theory.<<<

Count me in as one of the heretics. I've never ever liked that rule. The
explanations were always bogus to me. My jumps are based on the power of the
drive. The players in my group agree with me so everyone is content there. 

I'm sure this thread has been discussed at length before. I'm not looking to
open it back up or waste bandwith arguing it. I'm just voicing support for
Ken on this.

I refuse to be a slave to the rules. If I don't like the logic, it isn't
used.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:41:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: One System Games

>I ran a rather fun game (Two PC's)where a retired Police Chief and his
>friend kept finding mystery and adventure in the Regina system. 4 months,
>never left the moon of regina; heck, they never left the region of the
>starport.

I ran a part of my still going 8 real years campaign on Victoria in
Spinward marches. the players lived on Victoria for 8 real months helping
to bring the Chirpers living there back to Droyne status by the help of a
Coyn collection and started an arms race between two low tech zeppelin
cultures. I based Victoria on the Journal #2 writeup and also borrowed
heavily from "Prisoners of the sky" by whoever.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:55:30 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: USD-ICr

>Does anybody on the list remember how many USD an Imperial Credit is
>worth? (in MT if it makes any differance) I think it is either 1 USD or
>3 USD, bt I=B4m not certain.
>
>//Helmer

When I started playing I used 1 Cr =3D 1$ but now I tend towards 1 Cr =3D 2$=
 to
account for Terrestrial inflation.
The Imperium shouldn't have inflation for ease of play and also because
inflation is caused by unbalanced state budgets which the Imperium doesn't
have as Strephon was so incredibly wise and smart.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:53:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Bonus Points revoked!

Robert Flammang, formerly announced as the winner of the "What does TSR
stand for" contest, has just reflexively proved the old adage "don't trust
anyone over 30" by admitting to me that he's over 30.

However, I've long since lost track of who else answered the question in
those first few hours.  As a result, the two bonus points will be
ceremoniously tossed from the top of Ce Acatl Tower on Sylea; the mob
below is free to fight over them to determine a new winner.

FASA stands for "Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration," by the
way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can ell me the
origin of the name "Freedonia."

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:10:06 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

>Uh, what?  If you drill through a sphere along a diameter, the "angle" is
>of no consequence; it may not even have any meaning.  I don't see how this
>relates to jump-time.

OK putting on my handwaving gloves.
The normal universe has 3 dimensions (ignoring time for the moment) which
for the sake of simplicity will be reduced to a 2-dim surface on a sphere.
When jumping, a ship is cutting through the surface and subject to a strong
force that propels it along a "straight" path through the sphere. The angle
off from the curvature of the sphere depends on the J-drives weave
tightness and the distance travelled on the surface of the sphere is the
actual jumplength. The jump force has the same properties as gravity being
proportional to the supervolume of the sphere (4d volume that is) and
inverse square to the distance measured along the radius of the sphere
(which is perpendicular to all 3 normal dimension. All this is of course
only a crude analog taught to schoolkids because the real physical system
requires extensive study into "field array isoflux theory".
Off them gloves.

What the original poster said was simply that there are physical real world
systems that show a fixed length of time with varied parameters. Another
less easily handwaved is the period of a fixed length pendelum which
doesn't rely on neither mass nor amplitude (except when the amplitude
breaks the sin a aprox a) but only length of strong and gravity. Everybody
has heard the pretty crude rubbersheet anology to space time curvature so
the above anology seems on the surface similar and therefore game-world
acceptable.

Jump grid cooling sounds Trekkish, which means I just dealt it the lowest
of blows.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:49:59 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: ID4 Spoiler Addendum

>
>   Apparently no one told the aliens that everything they could get here
>was available in our asteroid belt, and they could have mined it without
>having to worry about a run in with the natives.
>

Thus leaving room for the REST of the fleet (the other 2/3ds, say) to be
the baddies in the sequel(s)...

One portion of the fleet is cutting up mars, and another grabbing up the
belt, and maybe a third portion working on Venus and Mercury. Hmmm... I
think I see a campaign idea here...

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:18:13 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: RE: Roswell Incident

>>    ID4 was created for American audiences.  If you as a citizen of
>> another country found it entertaining, wonderful, if not, well...you
>> weren't the target audience anyway.  I didn't get some of the political
>> humor references in the old Benny Hill series (created for British TV)
>> either, but then those jokes weren't put in for Americans anyway.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Harold

Well I agree that ID4 was as stupid as a Benny Hill episode but lets hope
that ID4 was targeting a small part of the american audience with thick
foreheads.
What irks me with some americans is that they cannot understand that
something can be bad despite being successful but now I'm wandering so off
topic that my dopplers start blinking about large relativistic rocky object
on intercept course.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:05:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Blackmoor (getting even further off topic on the TML)

> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 12:28:00 PST
> From: David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk>

> Also, in all the arguements about how many RPGS were published before   
> Traveller, no-one has yet mentioned Chivalry & Sorcery (I'd have to check   
> my copy, but 1975 I think).

Ah, yes...but as anyone who "played" it knows, C&S was not a role-playing
game.  There were several theories about what it actually was.  My
favorites:

- - The first doctoral thesis on Medieval society to incorporate d20s.
- - The world's longest eye exam chart.
- - The rough draft for Crowley's "Magick in Theory and Practice."

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:33:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)

On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Andrew Boulton wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <33146762.41C67EA6@camax.com>
> << Actually in my game I have taken this even further, to help explain 
> what the heck the engineers are doing during jump...  In my game 
> the jump grid doesn't cool evenly.  In fact, the larger the grid,
> the more problems you have with keeping the grid even.  This means
> that on a 100 ton ship, checks every 8 or 9 hours are sufficient
> to keep things kosher (assuming it's in good shape), but a 200 ton
> ship requires checks every 4 or 5 hours, and buy the time you get
> to a 50KdT warship, a full engineering watch is required 24 hours 
> a day to keep the grid balanced as it cools >>
> 
> Nice idea. What happens if you don't cool it evenly?

If the lanthanum jump grid needs to "cool down" to below a specific point
for the starship to re-enter ordinary space, perhaps uneven cooling leads
to parts of the ship leaving jump space prematurely - which, if you're
feeling particularly brutal, might "rupture" the "n-space bubble" around
the portion of the ship whose jump grid is still "hot," leading to the
loss of everything and everyone aboard... Keep an eye on those gauges!

                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:49:09 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <33146762.41C67EA6@camax.com>
> 
> << Actually in my game I have taken this even further, to help explain
> << what the heck the engineers are doing during jump...  In my game
> << the jump grid doesn't cool evenly.  
> Nice idea. What happens if you don't cool it evenly?

What happens when only part of the ship is in jumpspace?  As someone
suggested elsewhere, you get some high energy particles scattered 
across the parsecs.  In fact, some "misjumps" are situations where
there is some abnormality in the de-energization (cooling) of the 
jump grid.  The engineers spend the time frantically scampering 
around the ship trying to re-route the grid energy to balance it,
occasionally partially re-energizing parts of it from the standard
power plant. 
	"Captain, we need 20% more power in engineering, immediately!"
	"What the heck are we supposed to turn off?"
	"Life support for all I care."
Well maybe not THAT extreme, but you get the idea.  Of course in such
situations, I would not let a single roll off all the characters,
but if they can't keep control, it certainly would be bad for them.
Note that re-energization does not take the extreme amounts and speed
of energization from zero state.  In my mind the jump grid is similar
in behavior to a transistor, with a BIG shift in energy level between
the Jump-State and the Normal-State, but within these states, 
it behaves in a "well-behaved" fashion.

So, during a "mis-jump" the extra time is because the irregularites
in the jump cause engineering to re-energize the grid to keep it
balanced, keeping the ship in J-Space longer.  Well, couldn't a ship
mis-jump intentionally? Yes, by re-energizing the grid during J-State.
Unfortunately, no one has been able to figure out the effects of
these re-energizations on the destination.  The initial energy 
of the Jump configuration has been well mapped.  The problem with in 
J-State re-energization, is that they're never the same and the 
requirements of re-energization seem to be dictated by J-Space.  And 
if you screw up, which is much easier under these circumstances, you
can spread you self over lots of parsecs...  Yes there are crazy
scientists chasing this, but the mortality rate is, umm...,
discouraging.  And spending a couple of months for one data point
is slow.  Personally, I'd look to TL20 or so to control distance by
re-energization.  (Can you see PCs with a ship like this?  
Frightening!)

Anyway, enough blathering....
Anyone else want to run with this? Shoot holes in it?

Douglas McCorison

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:56:52 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: ID4 and Americans 

At 08:18 PM 2/27/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>Well I agree that ID4 was as stupid as a Benny Hill episode but lets hope
>that ID4 was targeting a small part of the american audience with thick
>foreheads.
>What irks me with some americans is that they cannot understand that
>something can be bad despite being successful but now I'm wandering so off
>topic that my dopplers start blinking about large relativistic rocky object
>on intercept course.

ID4 was bad in many respects, but it was great at showing things being
"blowed up real good."  The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.  

And, well, however bad the movie was, I still get a lot of oohs and aahs at
my black nylon jacket with the official Apple/ID4 logo embroidered on the
front. :)  

Now if I could just get a cool matte black nylon jacket with a huge
Imperial sunburst on the back... heh heh heh.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:01:44 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

At 08:10 PM 2/27/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>OK putting on my handwaving gloves.
>The normal universe has 3 dimensions (ignoring time for the moment) which
>for the sake of simplicity will be reduced to a 2-dim surface on a sphere.
>When jumping, a ship is cutting through the surface and subject to a strong
>force that propels it along a "straight" path through the sphere. The angle
>off from the curvature of the sphere depends on the J-drives weave
>tightness and the distance travelled on the surface of the sphere is the
>actual jumplength. The jump force has the same properties as gravity being
>proportional to the supervolume of the sphere (4d volume that is) and
>inverse square to the distance measured along the radius of the sphere
>(which is perpendicular to all 3 normal dimension. All this is of course
>only a crude analog taught to schoolkids because the real physical system
>requires extensive study into "field array isoflux theory".
>Off them gloves.

Yeah, off them gloves.  For my money, this explanation fails under its own
weight.  The parsimoniousness of the universe gives rise to Occam's razor
- -- which means that jump grid "cooling" (this cooling also being a crude
analogy taught to kids), being simpler, is more elegant, and thus more
likely to be true.

Of course, in your universe, your mileage may vary.


Hmmm.  While I'm thinking about it, is there a physicist in the house?  I
have some questions about Planck space and particles as standing waves in
that space that I'd like to explore, for plot generation purposes.


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:19:01 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bonus Points revoked!

> way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can ell me the
> origin of the name "Freedonia."
> 

Freedonia was the country that Rocky and Bullwinkle are from, of course!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Craig Berry wrote:

> 
> Robert Flammang, formerly announced as the winner of the "What does TSR
> stand for" contest, has just reflexively proved the old adage "don't trust
> anyone over 30" by admitting to me that he's over 30.
> 
> However, I've long since lost track of who else answered the question in
> those first few hours.  As a result, the two bonus points will be
> ceremoniously tossed from the top of Ce Acatl Tower on Sylea; the mob
> below is free to fight over them to determine a new winner.
> 
> FASA stands for "Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration," by the
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>    |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
>  --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>    |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>        "Every man and every woman is a star."
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:15:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: First Survey Comments

Allen Shock wrote: 

>One of the very real problems I saw immediatley when I looked at FS was
>that, for an area of space supposedly recovering from a Long Night, there
>are an awful lot of spaceflight level civilizations, A and B class
>starports, and absolutely NO X class ports in any of the 9 sectors detailed
>in the book (or at least I haven't found any). I guess I was expecting
>something a LITTLE more along the lines of what the collapsed sectors of TNE
>looked like; a fair number of dead worlds, lots of places with D and E class
>ports, and a number of X's. There's one worls listed in the Core Sector that
>has NO population (Pop 0 Pop Mutliplier 0) but a B class port and a TL 
of B!

>How do you come up with that?? There are more X class ports in the Core
>Sector in year 1115 than in Year 0! I have to say that aside from the maps
>and the player data, the rest of First Survey will not be of great use 
>to me.  Mileau 0 was a wonderful read, bursting with Traveller history 
>and the joy

Thanks, you've actually encouraged me to buy FS.  I was worried they would
do just what you wanted and am quite pleased that they did not. 

The Sylean Federation was founded in -650, at TL 11.  They've been jumping
around the Core sector for a long time now.  Why in the world would you
expect Core to look like TNE wild zones?  Year 0 is the end of the
political and economic "Long Night" for the rest of the Imperium.  I would
imagine that the Core sector itself has had extensive trade and
colonization since at least -500.  Having Core sector look like a
wilderness of doomed worlds makes no sense to me at all.  After 500 years,
lots of starports make sense.  I'd imagine there were a lot of TL 6-9
worlds which traded for jump drive and similar tech around -500 to -300 or
so and have been going strong since then. 

Other comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:11:54 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Fuzzy Dice

> (The reason I say "I'm not sure of the status of the company" is that I 
> believe that Zocchi has shut down and somebody else--Chessex???--has 
> taken over the distribution...)

Zocchi shut down?  You've got to be kidding me!

I loved that place.  I discovered it on a gambling trip to Biloxi 
once.  We stopped in at Gulfport to try the casino there before 
moving on to the strip in Biloxi, and everytime I'm out of town, I 
check the local yellow pages for a game store.  You'd be surprised 
how much out of print stuff I find that way.

Well, I stopped in at Zocchi and just fell in love.  You name it, 
they had it.

Damn, I'm really sorry to hear that they've shut down.  I guess they 
really should have worked on their customer service.  (Yes, they had 
mounds of old, out of print stuff, but you had to go look for it like 
in a warehouse or swap meet.  They sure weren't going to take time 
away from their busy schedules to piddle with a customer.)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:11:56 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

> >There should also be rules for longer jumps at lower Tls or did
> >the first J-drive inventors also stumble on the perfect cooling principle
> >right away? 


Mike Sellers wrote a good rebuttal, but I just wanted to add one 
thing in defense of Glenn's, and now my,  cool down theory.

Because Traveller is based on Asimov's Foundation series, technology 
waxes and wanes, and there is long periods of time between 
innovation.

Traveller has explained this with the way Vilani constrain technology 
innovation.

Just look at the jump drive.  The Vilani first discovered it in 
- -9235.  Then, almost 4,000 years later, they discovered jump-2.

4,000 years?  Damn.

This is true for many technological devices in the Traveller 
universe.

Given this, it is likely that the materials and equipment used to 
"cool down" (damn, we need a better term--maybe govern) and control 
the energy in the jump grid have not been significantly improved upon 
since the J-Drive's first inception.

Maybe they are working on it, but just haven't found a better system 
(kind of like our T4 task system debate).

I'm sure that there are some experimental models out there.  I 
remember reading an artical call Project Farstar in an old Challenge 
that dealt with experimental jump drives.

The theory is that there are 36 levels of jump space, and this has 
been proven to some extent by misjumps.  DGP's excellent SOM states 
that there may be as many as 62.  (Sheesh!  How about that brand new 
jump-62 drive they put on that sporty model over there!)

But, from between -9235 (the first invention of the J-Drive) and 1220 
(TNE years), no J-Drive has been able to break the jump-6 barrier on 
a controlled basis.

That's 10,455 years!  Out of possible 62 levels of jump space, we've 
only conquered 6.

I picture akin to the sound barrier, the light barrier, and 
the Warp 10 barrier on Star Trek.

Given this, I'd say it is possible that they haven't been able to 
improve upon the cooling principle that was used with the first 
J-Drive all those years ago.

Another thing that I like about the theory is that the possibility is 
there--leading to some neat game situations.

Mark postulated that the answer to the cool down problem might be 
just around the corner, at TL17 or 18.

From what I have said here, that may well be true.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:11:52 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

> Okay, so having determined the arcane meaning of TSR, who can
> answer the following?
> 
> what does FASA stand for?

I remember that FASA started as a licensee for GDW and, you guessed 
it, Traveller!

I can't remember the exact meaning if the acronym, but I do remember 
it referred to the sector of space that FASA was granted to develop 
there products for way back then.

Or maybe it was a Vilani word.

I dunno.  Something like that.


> What was GDW noted for before traveller?

Wargames?

> What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?

Checking out my trusted little black book, 3D6?

But this is the 1981 version of Book 1.


> What was GDW's modern minatures rules called?

Are you talking about Striker for Traveller?

> Anybody able to answer all these questions has spent far too
> long playing RPG's :*).

Heck, I guess I fail the quiz.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1003
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 27 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 1004



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jack of all Trades Proposal
Re: Bonus Points revoked!
Re: Bonus Points revoked!
Re: Jumps fixed at one week
Re: Bonus Points revoked!
Re: Bonus Points revoked!
Re: Blackmoor (getting even further off topic on the TML)
RE: Roswell Incident
Sylvania's Greatest Enemy
Re: Old foggies quiz
First Survey and the Long Night
Jump tech and alternatives
Re: Old foggies quiz
Minor Problem with Otherwise Excellent M0 and FS Books
re: FASA & Freedonia
In-system Traveller?
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: Old foggies quiz
Zocchi's
All Hail Freedonia!
Re: Traveller on IRC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:11:53 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Jack of all Trades Proposal

> This quickly showed me that JoT could not be used as a standard 
> skill under KBv1.1.

Agreed.  Many think that the JOT rule is broken even under the 
published T4 task system.

>  I have made the following changes:

(Interesting ideas snipped)

> Comments?

Although your idea has merit, I'd go with something simpler.  I try 
to stick as close to the printed rules as possible when I make 
changes.

What to you think of this JOT fix?

	1)As written:  JOT substitutes as the skill level for the missing 
	skill and attributes are halved.

	2)Proposed fix for KBv1.1:  Attributes are still halved, but skill 
	level is not doubled.

This seems to be an easier, quicker, and smoother fix for JOT under 
KBv1.1 that is still close to the original rule.  As a matter of 
fact, it is the original rule without the KBv1.1 changes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the JOT rule works 
fine with KBv1.1 as written.

Attributes are halved, giving the character level 0 like ability, 
but the character does not benefit the full amount he would if he had 
a real skill (because we are not doubling the skill level).  And, 
there is a definite penalty for not having the real skill.

Let's look at your example of the character with JOT-5.  You didn't 
list her stats, so I'll use a generic stat of 7 for this example.

		JOT-5, Stat-7

Under KBv1.1, 
		Target number is 14.

Using the original T4 rule,
		Target number is 9.

There's still benefit from having JOT, and it could definitely get 
you out of a jam.  But, you have no where near the chance of success 
you had when you had a full skill.

Well, what do you think of that?  I'm all for removing the 
complication.  This way, JOT does not have to be changed at all.  
You've already changed to KBv1.1, and that's it.  JOT is fine.

Comments?

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:36:49 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Bonus Points revoked!

At 10:53 AM 2/27/97 -0800, you wrote:

>FASA stands for "Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration," by the
>way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can ell me the
>origin of the name "Freedonia."

Marx Brothers, A Night at the Opera

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:39:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Bonus Points revoked!

On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> > way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can ell me the
> > origin of the name "Freedonia."
> 
> Freedonia was the country that Rocky and Bullwinkle are from, of course!

True...but that wasn't the *origin* of the name.  R&B borrowed it from the
same source FASA did.  Next?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:24:48 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Jumps fixed at one week

 
> Count me in as one of the heretics. I've never ever liked that rule. The
> explanations were always bogus to me. My jumps are based on the power of the
> drive. The players in my group agree with me so everyone is content there. 
> 
> I'm sure this thread has been discussed at length before. I'm not looking to
> open it back up or waste bandwith arguing it. I'm just voicing support for
> Ken on this.

I actually had a system just like the one you describe above.  I had 
never heard anything that I could buy explaining the rule 
either--especially in the official material.

It seemed that the answers always boiled down to, "It's that way 
because it is."

I wanted more.

And Glenn gave it to me.  You should listen to his explanation.  It's 
a good one, and made me convert, after 14 years disregarding the one 
week rule.

> I refuse to be a slave to the rules. If I don't like the logic, it
> isn't used.

Exactly.  Me too.  Glenn's explanation puts logic into the rule 
without changing anything.

I'm one of his fiercest supporters.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:00:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Bonus Points revoked!

Quoth Craig Berry:
> FASA stands for "Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration," by the
> way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can ell me the
> origin of the name "Freedonia."

Ha!  It's the name of the country run by Groucho Marx's character "Rufus
T. Firefly" in the Marx Brothers' film "Duck Soup."  I believe or or two
of the FASA Traveller license products listed an R.T. Firefly as their
chief naval architect, or some such.

And I'm still only 28.  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:54:56 -0500 (EST)
From: CMcknight@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bonus Points revoked!

In a message dated 97-02-27 15:19:38 EST, you write:

<< Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can ell me the
 origin of the name "Freedonia." >>

Duck Soup - Marx Bros.

Chuck McKnight
cmcknight@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:06:08 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Blackmoor (getting even further off topic on the TML)

This is off-topic day (like my kid's "opposite days")

At 11:05 AM 2/27/97 -0800, Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> wrote:
>> David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk> wrote

>> Also, in all the arguements about how many RPGS were published before   
>> Traveller, no-one has yet mentioned Chivalry & Sorcery (I'd have to
check   
>> my copy, but 1975 I think).

>Ah, yes...but as anyone who "played" it knows, C&S was not a role-playing
>game.  There were several theories about what it actually was.  My
>favorites:

>- The first doctoral thesis on Medieval society to incorporate d20s.
>- The world's longest eye exam chart.
>- The rough draft for Crowley's "Magick in Theory and Practice."

Ah C&S.  It was none of the above.  It was designed by Tylenol Company for
test subjects of their new pain killer.  To continue the test, the release
Space Opera and Aftermath.

Actually, I bought Space Opera last year from a net-auction.  No real
reason, just to have it take up shelf space with everything else.  But it
is good to see how far games have come since then (not necessarily in
mechanics, but art and printing and layout).

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:00:57 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Roswell Incident

At 08:18 PM 2/27/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>Well I agree that ID4 was as stupid as a Benny Hill episode but lets hope
>that ID4 was targeting a small part of the american audience with thick
>foreheads.

>What irks me with some americans is that they cannot understand that
>something can be bad despite being successful but now I'm wandering so off
>topic that my dopplers start blinking about large relativistic rocky object
>on intercept course.

I have to jump in here and defend ID4. This may become flame bait, and its
definatly off-topic but here goes any way . . .

I enjoyed the heck out of ID4 once I decided 2 minutes into the movie to
not nit-pick and just sit back and watch.  Yes there was a lot of stuff
that was outragiously stupid to people who know better.  A friend that is a
HAM operator was offened by the use of the old style teletype keys instead
of a more modern thumb-finger key.  I am sure the people at SETI thought
that the representation of SETI was completly bogus as well.

The movie wasn't made for science geeks like us.  It was made for the other
20 bazillion moving going Americans who build cars, walk dogs, sell
groceries, trade stocks, design buildings, etc.  I dont think you want to
class everyone who doesn't have a college degree and a good understanding
of science, dopler effect, and exo-biology in the class of "americans with
thick foreheads".

Not everything Hollywood does has to reflect reality.  In fact most movies
they make do not.  People in the field being represented are always
critical of it.  I know for a fact that the storm chase geeks were critical
of "Twister" yet everyone else who is not a meterology expert or meterology
expert wanna be enjoyed the movie because they didn't care about being
"accurate".

"The Net" is one that drove the computer geeks nuts because it was so
bogus.  Yet for every person who saw it who wouldn't know a fire wall from
a router saw an execellent and enjoyable thriller.  When hollywood makes a
film, they have to present what looks good on the screen and what will be
understandable by the mass of people.  99% of the people who saw ID4 could
care less that a Mac using a 'C' like program could trash Mr. Alien
spacecraft.  They saw some last minute heroics from some exausted heros.

The movie makers don't spend a lot of money seeking to be technically
correct.  "Here hold the salt shaker, it will look like a cool sci-fi
weapon." is part of the magic.  

How many people enjoyed "An Officer and an Gentleman"?  How many Naval
officers and Marines tore that apart?  I certianly didn't belive that
Richard Gere's character was any were near qualifing for Naval Avaiator but
it didn't change the fact that it was a great movie.

You can nit-pick any movie to death to the point where you dislike every
movie.  When you get there, save your money, you are not going to enjoy the
movie any way.  I decided to stop nit-picking and just sit back and have
fun watching movies after I completly ruined Star Trek V for myself (bad
movie for trekkers, good movie for the masses).  Since then I decided to be
entertained by the story and not by the accuracy.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:36:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Sylvania's Greatest Enemy

Craig Berry wrote:

> FASA stands for "Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration," by the
> way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can ell me the
> origin of the name "Freedonia."

"Hail, hail, Freedonia, Land Of The FREEEE, Freee, Free!"  :)

  -- from the Freedonian National Anthem.

Duck Soup.  Groucho Marx.  What are bonus points good for?

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@cs.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:37:43 +0000 (GMT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Andrew Vallance wrote:

> what does FASA stand for?

   FASA actually means something?! =8->

> what does SPI stand for?

   Simulations Publications Institute

> What were SPI's RPG's called?

   SPI wrote RPGs??? ;)

> What was GDW noted for before traveller?

  Hmmm. Imperium?

> What does SORAG mean?

  Special Operations Research Activities Group

> Who produced C&S?

  Fantasy Games Unlimited published it, Ed Simbalist and Wilf Backhaus
designed the game. (Ed was also responsible for Space[d] Opera)

> What was GDW's modern minatures rules called?

  Uh, you don't mean Striker do you?

- -- DLH                                      lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:19:25 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: First Survey and the Long Night

>Thanks, you've actually encouraged me to buy FS.  I was worried they would
>do just what you wanted and am quite pleased that they did not.
>
>The Sylean Federation was founded in -650, at TL 11.  They've been jumping
>around the Core sector for a long time now.  Why in the world would you
>expect Core to look like TNE wild zones?  Year 0 is the end of the
>political and economic "Long Night" for the rest of the Imperium.  I would
>imagine that the Core sector itself has had extensive trade and
>colonization since at least -500.  Having Core sector look like a
>wilderness of doomed worlds makes no sense to me at all.  After 500 years,
>lots of starports make sense.  I'd imagine there were a lot of TL 6-9
>worlds which traded for jump drive and similar tech around -500 to -300 or
>so and have been going strong since then.

It seems like I have once again not fully explained myself (or maybe I just
need to write posts 3x longer than normal to cover every possible
misunderstanding that might occur...)

What you have said is valid for Core Sector, probably even for Vland. But
Gushemege? Corridor? Massilia? I would think these distant sectors would be
feelihg the effects of the Long Night yet, wouldn't you? I don't mean things
should be as bad as it was in TNE; far from it. I just think it should be
somewhere between that and what it looks like to me from the data presented.
Less A and B ports, more worlds at lower tech levels and so on. It wouldn't
bother me that mcuh except that MILEAU 0 says that this is what is IS like,
and the maps don't reflect this.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:21:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Jump tech and alternatives

There's been much discussion of late on the 1-week jump rule; how it's
justified, how it might be changed.

The first important thing to note is that you *can't* change it in any
nontrivial way without breaking canon history beyond all recognition. 
Jump technology *defines* the Imperium (and its antecedents, and its
neighbors) in a deep, complex, inextricable way.  An Imperium in which
Regina wasn't months of travel away from Core would look *nothing* like
the canon Imperium.  A war in which higher tech allowed shorter-interval
jumps would look *nothing* like (say) the Fifth Frontier War.  A starship
that could use higher power to shorten its jumps would look *nothing* like
any starship ever built for Traveller. 

Obviously, if you're running your own non-canon campaign, you can use any
drive tech you want; but if you want to use the Imperium and be
consistent, you have to be incredibly careful about changing tech --
because tech defines the society, in a pervasive sense.  Just look at how
much canon was broken when TNE converted from thrusters to HEPlaR!  A good
rule of thumb is that *any* tech change from canon *will* have unintedned
consequences and invalidate other aspects of canon.

Now, for my attempt at hand-waving past the "Why one week?" question:

Jump involves a transition to a "metaverse" with a skewed coordinate
structure.  This metaverse is separated from ours by a tiny difference in
potential energy, measured against a hyperdimensional vector field called
Sigma.  Other metaverses lie at higher and lower Sigma potentials; the
lower ones aren't at all useful, as the physical laws there are *more*
restrictive than ours.  Our own universe is known as Mu 0 in this field of
science; what is conventionally called Jumpspace is "Mu +1", the first
metaverse of Sigma potential higher than our own.

During the transition to Mu +1, application of quite tiny amounts of
normal-space energy can create Mu +1 coordinate transformations which in
turn translate to "jumps"  of many parsecs back in Mu 0.  Unfortunately,
the normal energy of ships, people, and so forth is quite high enough to
make them "misjump"  spontaneously in random directions, particle by
particle, if exposed directly to Mu +1.  Most of what a J-Drive does is
create and maintain a protective bubble of Mu 0 space around the ship to
prevent this from happening.

Like all energies, the transition energy from Mu 0 to Mu +1 looks like a
distance in Mu +1 -- but it's spent 'between' them, and thus ends up
looking like a *time interval* in both coordinate systems (e = mc^2, ke =
0.5 mv2, c and v in dist/time, mass fixed, apply SR at v = c, reduce).
That time interval is 168 hours.  Small quantum fluctuations introduce a
slight uncertainty in this figure.

Actually, interestingly enough, the transform above is not commutative.
The energy increase when dropping back from Mu +1 to Mu 0 manifests as a
*distance* -- c * 168 hours, or about 180 billion kilometers, or about
1200 AU.  Part of an astrogator's (and jump-control computer's) job is to
take this 'jump drift' into account in planning the jump; its direction
can be controlled, with the proper inputs to the drive during the
transition (the same time *all* such energy inputs must be applied, as
once entirely 'in' Mu +1, no normal-space effects will have any impact on
the Mu +1 outside the bubble.

A ship which suffers a catastrophic failure while jumping out will
occasionally reach jumpspace with an operative jump bubble, but without 
having had its course controlled by the jump-time energy inputs.  Such
ships will travel 1200 AU in some random direction...putting them into the
Oort cloud of most stars.  Some salvage operations have had luck looking
for wrecked ships 1200 AU from busy port worlds.

Next:  Where does all the hydrogen go?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:33:37 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

 
> > What was GDW noted for before traveller?
> 
>   Hmmm. Imperium?

Triplanetary?

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:52:34 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Minor Problem with Otherwise Excellent M0 and FS Books

>From: Steve Charlton/IFSNA <Steve_Charlton@Avalon.COM>

>presented very clearly and concisely, but for some reason the text is very hard
>to read.  Big gobs of tabular data presented in a very fine font makes for
>difficult reading, especially in non-bright light.  I might suggest using a

This will probably make it more difficult for the scanner, too, so I'll have to hire 
someone to enter into the database.  Sigh.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:37:35 -0500
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: re: FASA & Freedonia

IIRC, in the re-published FASA stuff that Traveller Chronicle put out,
Freedonia is a world in the Far Fronier's Sector.  Freedonia was I
believe a neutral world between 2 rival interstellar governments, kinda
like a "Switzerland in space!" It was TL-15 and had a class A starport,
but i don't recall if they made realy good watches. :)

It's not that I don't have a life(most of life is WORK!), I just got a
dang good memory for stuff I read. ;)
- -- 
Commander X
(cmdrx@magicnet.net <or> bprankard@theiia.org)
Creator, Maintainor, and Webmeister of "Planet X"
(www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:41:52 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: In-system Traveller?

>From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>

>Have any of you run a Traveller campaign that took place entirely within
>one star system?  I've always wanted to run a Sol-only campaign (hey, this

I haven't, but why not?  There's an article in JTAS (I think) entitled "Travelling 
without jumping" or something like that that deals with in-system adventuring.  It's a 
matter of having enough detail in a star system to keep the campaign interesting.  
Traveller has rules and background to govern in-system travel and development of the 
setting (especially World Builder's Handbook by DGP), and influences from beyond the 
system (Imperial politics, or visits by offworlders, e.g.) don't have to take your 
players into jump space.  The Sol system is, I think, a perfect choice, because of the 
amount of detail already created and written down for you (both in Traveller and here in 
the Sol system -- ricochet.net is located on Terra, isn't it?).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:37:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:11:56 +0000
> From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> 
> Given this, it is likely that the materials and equipment used to 
> "cool down" (damn, we need a better term--maybe govern) and control 
> the energy in the jump grid have not been significantly improved upon 
> since the J-Drive's first inception.

I'm not a proponent of your j-drive model -- I just posted my own
alternative -- but might I suggest "dissipate"?  As in, "Dissipation of
energy from the grid requires 168 hours," or "Captain!  If we can't
dissipate 20 megajoules in the next three hours, we're toast!"  It's a
reasonable term for what you're talking about, and sounds much higher tech
than "cool down." :)

> Maybe they are working on it, but just haven't found a better system 
> (kind of like our T4 task system debate).

For something *this* critical, even the Vilani would see the need to
research the hell out of it!  The culture with better j-drives *wins*, in
the Traveller universe.  If you could jump in six days instead of seven,
the economic advantage alone would be astonishing, to say nothing of the
military implications.  There's just no way *any* starfaring culture
wouldn't optimize this right to the wall (i.e., to the ragged limits of
their current TL).

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:39:07 -0800
From: Joel Pratt <jpratt@ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> asked:

>Okay, so having determined the arcane meaning of TSR, who can
>answer the following?

>what does FASA stand for?
Freedonian Aeronautics & Space Administration, later changed to
Fantasimulations(?) and now just FASA (like TSR). Freedonia was the name of
the (fictional) nation featured in a Marx Bros. film (Duck Soup?). Spy
magazine played a pretty good prank on newly-elected congresscritters a
couple of years ago, asking them their opinion about ethnic cleansing in
Freedonia.

>what does SPI stand for?
Simulation Publications, Intl.

>What were SPI's RPG's called?
Universe, Dragonquest...and Dallas (based on the TeeVee show). Dallas is a
close contender for "weirdest RPG license" ever. (So is GDW's "Cadillacs
and Dinosaurs") Oh, and Commando (actually a wargame which inexplicably won
the "Best New RPG" award at Origins that year)

>What was GDW noted for before traveller?
The En Garde RPG system, it's line of small (Series 120) wargames (Eylau,
Pearl Harbor), and its monster Europa series (Drang Noch Osten,
Unentenscheiden, etc.)

>What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?
Don't know...The Traveller Book has it as 3D.

>What was the Chaosium's magazine dedicated to RuneQuest?
Wyrm's Footnotes (actually, it was originally dedicated to the wargame
White Bear and Red Moon, which formed the basis for the RuneQuest universe).

>What does SORAG mean?
Arrrgh...dunno.

>Who was Gigi D'Arn?
One of the staffers at Chaosium (Sandy Peterson? Steve Perrin?) wrote
"Letter for GiGi", the occasionally accurate gossip column in Different
Worlds (the Chaosium magazine that succeeded Wyrm's Footnotes). The name is
a confabulation of Gary Gygax (initials G.G. or "GiGi") and Dave Arneson.

>What issue did JTAS start using colour?
Dunno.

>Who produced C&S?
FGU produced the 2nd edition...I don't know about the first (FGU?). It was
recently re-released as a third edition (quick review: for retrogaming fans
only).

>What was GDW's modern minatures rules called?
Command Decision.

And any "lifetime" subscriber to Strategy & Tactics can tell you what TSR
*really* stands for:
Tough Shit, Readers.


What do I win?

- --Joel Pratt
jpratt@ucla.edu
http://www.seas.ucla.edu/~jpratt

"There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn." - Camus, The Myth of
Sisyphus

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:47:21 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Zocchi's

>> (The reason I say "I'm not sure of the status of the company" is that I 
>> believe that Zocchi has shut down and somebody else--Chessex???--has 
>> taken over the distribution...)
>
>Zocchi shut down?  You've got to be kidding me!
>
>I loved that place.  I discovered it on a gambling trip to Biloxi 
>once.  We stopped in at Gulfport to try the casino there before 
>moving on to the strip in Biloxi, and everytime I'm out of town, I 
>check the local yellow pages for a game store.  You'd be surprised 
>how much out of print stuff I find that way.
>
>Well, I stopped in at Zocchi and just fell in love.  You name it, 
>they had it.
>
>Damn, I'm really sorry to hear that they've shut down.  I guess they 
>really should have worked on their customer service.  (Yes, they had 
>mounds of old, out of print stuff, but you had to go look for it like 
>in a warehouse or swap meet.  They sure weren't going to take time 
>away from their busy schedules to piddle with a customer.)
>

<sniff>  Kenneth, you bring a tear to my eye.  Living on the Mississippi
Coast, I frequented Zocchi's and was VERY upset to see them leave.

Rumor Mill - They were bought out by a company from Tennessee that will be
moving the Out Of Print stuff from Zoochi's and the new stuff from Tennessee
to a big Distributor wharehouse in Atlanta.  No more walk in customers.

Also, I know it is no excuse for poor customer service, but Zocchi's was a
distributor, not a FLGS.  (They were anything but Friendly!)

Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:04:31 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: All Hail Freedonia!

Zhodani Agents report Sword Worlder Craig Berry  said:
>
>FASA stands for "Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration," by the
>way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can ell me the
>origin of the name "Freedonia."

To which the Vargr Sympathizer Bruce Johnson replied:
>
>Freedonia was the country that Rocky and Bullwinkle are from, of course!

GAAAH!

Rocky and Bullwinkle are, as everyone knows, from Frostbite Falls,
Minnesota, just north of Ely and about 150 miles north of Lake Wobegon,
gateway to Central Minnesota.  Boris and Natasha are from Pottsylvania, as
I recall.

Freedonia, on the other hand, is the name of a small nation that the Marx
Brothers are involved with in one of their movies -- I want to say 'Duck
Soup', but I won't swear to that... 

And I was even born in 1970 Solomani (-2521 Imperial), so I'm under
thirty... :) 

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://www.visi.com/~danger/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a Vilani out of my hat!"..."Again?"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:34:27 -0600
From: "sinbad@dfw.net" <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller on IRC

At 03:26 PM 2/24/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Greetings!
>
>This week's topic is Planetology 101 by Doug Berry.  I'm really 
>looking forward to this one!
>
>We'll be on IG's server, www.imperiumgames.com, port 6665 or 6666 
>beginning at 8:30pm EST. 
>
>As always, if you have any problems with connecting to IRC, please 
>let me know, I'll do my best to help you get online with us.
>
>Please contact me if you have any suggestions for topics, can lead a 
>discussion, or know someone who would be a good guest speaker.
>
>Suz
>
>Suzette C. Dollar
>#traveller Channel Manager
>suzd@goodnet.com
>
I am unable to get into the IG irc server it keeps timing out.
I am trying what you have listed above.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1004
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Friday, February 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1005



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT Broadsword hanger limits
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: micro survey
Re: Blackmoor
Re: In-system Traveller?
Mars Attacks! Further ramblings
Re: After THUDD
FASA, Fredonia, and the Old Fogies Quiz
Re: Characteristics Longish and inside
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: Old foggies quiz
Re: Jumps fixed at one week
THUDD Qustions
Spacecraft house rule
Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)
Re: A dice by any other name
Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)
Re: Old foggies quiz
Re: FASA, Fredonia, and the Old Fogies Quiz
Re: All Hail Freedonia!
Re: ID4 Spoiler Addendum
Re: Old foggies quiz
Jump Space: Hot and Heavy!
2300AD and the Four Horsemen!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:16:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: CT Broadsword hanger limits

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The cutters have to be in docking rings (x 1 volume, no repairs)
>
- --------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^----------------------------------
>
>   QSDS doesn't have these - must be a SSDS thing.  I did manage to build
> the Broadsword with QSDS 1.5 , though - I'll post the design later today
> after I clean it up a little.


QSDS has 'External Craft Grapples'...aren't those the same as 'Docking
Rings?'

That's the assumption I've been making...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  I don't know enough about SSDS to comment, but I thought that External
Craft Grapples were just that - entirely external.  They take up very
little volume (only 5 tons for a 50 ton craft), so the small craft must be
entirely outside (I assume the tonnage represents the space for the
grapple mechanism and the fairing on the hull for streamlined and airframe
hulls).  Perhaps someone who really knows what they are doing can
comment.


______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:18:39 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

At 03:37 PM 2/27/97 -0800, Craig Berry wrote:
>> Maybe they are working on it, but just haven't found a better system 
>> (kind of like our T4 task system debate).
>
>For something *this* critical, even the Vilani would see the need to
>research the hell out of it!  The culture with better j-drives *wins*, in
>the Traveller universe.  If you could jump in six days instead of seven,
>the economic advantage alone would be astonishing, to say nothing of the
>military implications.  There's just no way *any* starfaring culture
>wouldn't optimize this right to the wall (i.e., to the ragged limits of
>their current TL).

The same could be said of fusion power in our time, of course.  Just
because there is phenominal economic advantage to a technological
development does not mean the politicos will suddenly wake up and say
"clear the way everyone! Dr. Propeller-head and his band of grad students
are coming through with the wheelbarrows of money we're giving them to work
on this problem!"  Particularly if the past ten or twenty Dr.
Propeller-heads have vanished in space with all that nifty-keen equipment,
having tested their (alas, mistaken) theories and turned into fast
neutrinos ...or perhaps having faked that event and having jumped to
somewhere near, say, Barbados -- hmmm, I feel another adventure scenario
coming on, if some angry megacorp might want to find the good doctor...

On a slightly different note, it's very instructive to look at past earth
history and the attitudes different civilizations have had on technology,
science, and exploration.  As just one fascinating example, the Chinese
never had the western-utilitarian view of science, technology, or trade.
At one point they had a huge trading empire spanning the Indian Ocean down
to the southern tip of Africa; they had huge fleets made up of nine-masted
ships that sailed for years on end; they had great technology enabling them
to do far more deep-water sailing than could the Europeans of the time.  

And then... the Emperor died, and a new, slightly more cautious one
ascended the throne.  This one was somewhat more afraid of his Admirals,
and so made the decree that no ship with more than two masts could be built
or sailed.  Instantly, the huge trading and semi-political hegemony the
Chinese had had throughout the Indian Ocean and China Sea vanished.  And
about twenty years later, as I recall, the Portuguese finally rounded the
southern tip of Africa, and sailed up the east coast, across the Arabian
peninsula, and around India, Thailand, Indonesia, and the Philippines,
finding abandoned trade routes and easy pickings everywhere.  

This not only puts the early growth of the Portuguese empire in some
perspective, but (as I think you can see), it could make for a _great_
background for a pocket empire.


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:56:32 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: micro survey

TSR stands for TSR at this point - I forget when TSR formally ditched the
original meaning.  Originally, back in the days of their acquisition of
Tractics from Guidon Games (pre-D&D), of Chainmail, Tricolor (remember
THOSE???), DGUTS, etc., TSR stood for Tactical Studies Rules, because
historical rules were mainly what they published... 

- - Bill


>Two bonus points, by the way, for the first person under 30 years of age
>to tell me what "TSR" stands for.  No fair peaking at the fine print in
>one of their publications!
>>




- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:21:31 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Blackmoor

William,

Actually, it was.  I got mine around Christmas, 1975 (and still have it) -
it carried the hefty price tag of $5.00!  - Bill


At 09:37 PM 2/26/97 EST, you wrote:
>was Book 5 for D&D, I have a copy.
>
>The Blackmoor campaign system was never published separately.
>
>William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
>Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 
>
>
>
>
>
>




- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:00:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: In-system Traveller?

In a message dated 97-02-27 08:37:49 EST, you write:

>   Hey!  If that's anything like Somtow Sucharitkul's _MallWorld_, I
>WANNA PLAY!

Well, not quite MallWorld, but it has its similar points. 
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:07:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Mars Attacks! Further ramblings

> Mars Attacks! is, IMHO, the
>ultimate alien invasion flick.  It's done the genre; it's the epitome of
>it's type; everything else after it can only be pale imitation...

Mars Attacks is the Platonic form satire, a B-Movie version of the B-Movie
genre. It is a delight to the eye and a swift kick to any funny bone you may
have ever had. Tim Burton may be just twisted enough to play Traveller. See
it, know it, be it.
dsf

Pete-Can my next character be the Martian Girl?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:01:00 -0500
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: After THUDD

I tried sending this earlier but had some problems with CompuServe changing
my return address. Thanks to Rob Miracle for fixing the problem.

On Sun, 23 Feb 1997, Don McKinney wrote:

> OK:  Now that the first THUDDD exposition is done, perhaps the
contestants
> would tell us how they designed their ships - esp. if they used a program
> or spreadsheet, and perhaps make the programs/spreadsheets available on a
> website?

I used a spreadsheet in designing my SSDS THUDD entry very much in the same
way as Bruce Johnson, i.e., like a calculator. My spreadsheet was organized
like the worksheet in Starships. I added a row near the top for the totals
of the Mass, Volume, Surface, Power,  Cost, and crew columns. Like Bruce, I
also did a few cross-entry references for computing crew requirements,
stateroom totals, etc. 

My spreadsheet (in MS Works) did not contain any of the tables. I really
got tired of thumbing back and forth around the color plates. I am very
much looking forward to using James Dempsey's Java design tool, SAL
(http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd) for the next contest. I was able to
recreate my THUDD entry in less than ten minutes on the first try and have
been experimenting with some MERC designs. I like SAL; it lets you
concentrate on designing the ship rather than on the mechanics of looking
up table entries!

Later, John Lambert
        J_Lambert@compuserve.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:54:45 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: FASA, Fredonia, and the Old Fogies Quiz

Tom Dowd from FASA said they took it from Groucho Marx
when asked about it on Rec.Games.Mecha last year

GDW was best known for the Europa series of WW2 games before 
Traveller

the GDW Modern Minatures game was "Combined Arms Command Decision"
or "TacForce"
Tac Force was the earlier product

SPI published the Dragonlance RPG


The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:28:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Characteristics Longish and inside

>If the skill level accurately describes the skill of the person, are
>any two skill_3 people at the same level of skill?  I would actually
>say no--but they have the same training.

Pete has kept quiet about this, but he seems to run our game with a similar
thought in mind, that skill level is training. Attibutes determine how well
you do, skill level determines what you can do. The now famous paramedic Joe
Blow may have a better attribute than his lovely sister Diane, but she has
had more extensive training. He can stabilize the patient and keep him or her
alive long enough to get help, but she knows where to look for the bullet,
and how to get it out of there with minimal damage.
For an interesting example, see Traveller, The Silly Era. There is an
extensive discussion of what you can do with the skill of Vacc-Suit 5 on that
site.

In all fairness and with much sucking up to Pete, he is the master of rules
on the fly, (mostly because we stay with the plot line once in a blue moon)
and can create rules systems in seconds without blinking. Not everyone wants
to do this. Not everyone should. I'll shut up now and stop blathering.
dsf

Pete- Can we PLEASE have a wave-motion gun?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 21:36:07 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

In a message dated 2/27/97 9:29 AM, Anders Backman wrote:

>This sounds far better than the "cooling" of jumpgrid as there should be
>enormous investments made into alternative =A8cooling techniques et c if =
that
>was a fact. There should also be rules for longer jumps at lower Tls or =
did
>the first J-drive inventors also stumble on the perfect cooling principle
>right away? The first mentioned idea rules out any change in jumptime from
>a physics standpoint. The latter theory smells like a Nilsen ploy where =
you
>make a "small" change in the game universe wihout thinking out the
>ramifications and it also sounds a bit like "steam punk handwaving".

Remember Anders, the number of races who invented jumpdrives is Six: =
Vilani, Solomani, Zho's, Hiver, K'kree, and Aslan. Make that five: =
Aslan copied theirs. There are persistant rumors that *all* these =
races copied Ancients' drives.

Now, if the Ancients weren't the ones who perfected jump grid energy =
dissipation, I don't know who did...

Even If one assumes the five major races independently came up with =
Jump Drives, don't you think that's a really small sample? Maybe the =
most efficient "cooling" mechinism or materials are also the most =
obvious.

I guess my point is, *every* jump drive in the Traveller universe is =
a copy of either an Ancient's drive (eg. Geonee), or one of a mere =
*5* differing designs. Low tech or high tech, the drives work on =
basically the same principles, and in the 4000 odd years since =
they've been invented, I'm sure they've been tweaked to be as =
efficient as possible.

>You're all entitled to your views and if I sound like coming down hard on
>the guy who thought out the cooling idea I'm sorry.

Nah, I *like* having my wacky ideas picked apart. ;-) And I'm not =
forcing them on anyone. I also like a couple other alternate jump =
drive theories that have been bandied about.

I think it's important to look at other people's ideas critically, =
and I appreciate respectful criticism.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Glenn Hoppe =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\ /--- =
MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Eschew =
Obfuscation =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:39:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

I resent the fact that being over thirty makes me a "fogey". If anything, I
am a "coot" or "codger"
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 21:58:10 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Jumps fixed at one week

In a message dated 2/27/97 12:21 PM, Dedly@aol.com wrote:

>I refuse to be a slave to the rules. If I don't like the logic, it isn't
>used.

I, too, refuse to be a slave to the rules.

However, I *like* the Traveller universe, and since a constant one week 
jump time is one of the underpinnings of that universe, upon which skads 
of history and background is based, I don't change that "rule" lightly.

I wouldn't even call it a rule. It's a basic assumption of the Traveller 
background.

To me, rules have to do with the *mechanics* of the game. Take task 
systems for instance. There's something I'm willing to gut to the bone 
and change as much as I wish.

It's not like the _characters_ in the Traveller background run around and 
roll dice and actually have attributes and skills "programmed" into their 
bodies.

You can change the *rules* as much as you want, and it's still Traveller. 
Lord knows, the rules have changed a lot.

If you change *assumptions* upon which the Traveller Universe is based, 
and you ain't playin' Traveller, bub.

You're welcome to play whatever game you want, tho'. ;-)

PS. I don't dispute the fact that basic assumptions have changed in the 
different incarnations of Traveller. (like anti-gravity, thruster/heplar 
etc.) That has rankled me a bit. I like consistancy in a Universe. (I'm 
funny that way ;-) But the publisher of each incarnation had their 
reasons.

You will note, however, that the one week thing has been set in stone, 
inviolate, since the beginning... I think it's likely the most important 
assumption Traveller makes about future technology...


===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:41:55 -0500 (EST)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: THUDD Qustions

	After cleaning up  my hard drive I tossed vital THUDD info Can some one due
me a favor and post or E-me  The date and specs for HFB after missing the
last THUDD #%*@#$%*#^@%@%#^&$ I want the date for this one Thanks in advance


Victor

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:02:27 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Spacecraft house rule

I wasn't happy with the rules for the Spacecraft skill cluster. It has only
two skills, Pilot and Ship's Boat, and Ship's Boat is useless because Pilot
gives you skill in it. Since the Spacecraft cluster is fairly common in
character generation and Pilot is the only logical choice, most characters
end up picking Pilot over and over. I'm not saying that's bad, I just
wanted there to be some variety in spacecraft pilots. My idea of a starship
pilot is like an air traffic controller, watching panels full of displays,
and a small craft pilot is more of a seat-of-your-pants fighter jockey. I
was planning on changing the Spacecraft cascade to:

        Starship Pilot     Edu
        Shuttle Pilot    Dex
        Sensors        Int

Starship Pilot replaces the existing Pilot skill, it is identical except it
gives 0-level Shuttle Pilot and Sensors skill and is based on Edu. Since a
starship pilot is usually flying the ship in a grav-compensated workstation
I felt the education of how to integrate all the info displayed is more
important than hand-eye coordination. Also, I wanted there to be a bit of
cultural divide between the 'professional' large-craft pilots and the more
free-flying shuttle pilots. The name change is solely to distinguish it
from Shuttle Pilot.

Shuttle Pilot replaces the existing Ship's Boat skill, it is identical
except it gives 0-level Starship Pilot and Sensors skill. It is also used
for piloting star fighters and ship's boats. I changed the name because
"Ship's Boat" sounds so dorky (can you imagine a fighter jock picking up
chicks with the line "Hey babe, I fly Boats for a living"?).

I added the Sensors skill to the Spacecraft cascade because I figure a lot
of the bridge crew on starships are really sensor staff, and I wanted
another good skill for players who roll Spacecraft skill.

Comments? I considered splitting Pilot into Reaction-drive (HEPlaR) and
Reactionless (Thrust plate) cascades, but felt this only added bookkeeping
and not coolness.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 22:54:01 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

On 02/27/97 at 07:59 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:

> >> Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->
 
> >> Welcome to the outer darkness.
 
> >Damn, Eris.  You make me want to be a heretic again.  You make it 
> >sound so neat.

"Abandon all canon ye who enter here!", is inscribed over the door to our
lair. 

Let's see, we can add some more Attributes..dumping Social Standing for
sure, use lots of d10's and d20's, and make jumps in under a bloody week! 
Muuhahahaha, we are the anti-traveller!

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 23:03:48 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name

On 02/27/97 at 05:57 PM,  Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es> said:

> Harold signed:

> >Harold (using D20s, D10s, *and* D6s to play Traveller and loving every
> >minute of it)

>         You reminded me of the fun I had for a whole year... every play
> session, when I unpacked the materials, I dropped behind my Referee's
> screen several D10s, D20s and other funny things... We were playing by D6
> alone, and I never explained my players what the other dice where for. I
> regularly throwed them when I was thinking, paying absolutely no
> attention to the results, 

Yep, I do that too. Of course, I occasionally pay attention to the rolls
when I want to let randomness send something one way or another, but just
*sometimes* and never consistently. <G>

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:25:31 -0500 (EST)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)

In a message dated 2/27/97 10:30:18 PM, you wrote:

>can spread you self over lots of parsecs...  Yes there are crazy
>scientists chasing this, but the mortality rate is, umm...,
>discouraging

Yea it's kind of hard to Convince the captan of a ship to let you play around
with his jump drive    " No realy captin I can make you a huge profit if you
just let me play around with the jump govener and you be famous<sound of old
enginer geting tossed into a airlock>"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:22:48 -0800
From: "Douglas" <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

I keep it simple, I'm a DOM-IT (Dirty Old Man - In Training)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----
E-MAIL: douglas@teleport.com
HTTP://www.teleport.com/~douglas
     
Never anger a dragon, for they find you are crunchy and go well with brie!
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----

- ----------
> From: Neveron@aol.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz
> Date: Thursday, February 27, 1997 7:39 PM
> 
> I resent the fact that being over thirty makes me a "fogey". If anything,
I
> am a "coot" or "codger"
> dsf

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:34:53 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: FASA, Fredonia, and the Old Fogies Quiz

At 08:54 PM 2/27/97 +0000, Shadowcat wrote:
>Tom Dowd from FASA said they took it from Groucho Marx
>when asked about it on Rec.Games.Mecha last year
>
>GDW was best known for the Europa series of WW2 games before 
>Traveller

Ever since I saw the Europa games (back when I was working in a retail game
store and getting a zillion questions about them), I've thought about
making a game about the _other_ Europa.  You know, the one that orbits
Jupiter.  Hmmm.  Maybe this folds into my desire to run a Sol-only campaign...


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 00:40:56 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: All Hail Freedonia!

On 02/27/97 at 07:04 PM,  danger@visi.com said:

> Rocky and Bullwinkle are, as everyone knows, from Frostbite Falls,
> Minnesota, just north of Ely and about 150 miles north of Lake Wobegon,
> gateway to Central Minnesota.  Boris and Natasha are from Pottsylvania,
> as I recall.

Yeah, and Bullwinkle matriculated at Whatsamatta U!  ;-> While there
he excelled at what sport?

> Freedonia, on the other hand, is the name of a small nation that the Marx
> Brothers are involved with in one of their movies -- I want to say 'Duck
> Soup', but I won't swear to that... 

Go ahead and swear!  I won't tell. <g>

Now for the next question...Freedonia was at war with what country?

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 23:36:48 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: ID4 Spoiler Addendum

On 02/26/97 at 11:49 PM,  "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com> said:

> >   Apparently no one told the aliens that everything they could get here
> >was available in our asteroid belt, and they could have mined it without
> >having to worry about a run in with the natives.

> Thus leaving room for the REST of the fleet (the other 2/3ds, say) to be
> the baddies in the sequel(s)...

Well maybe, but I figure the ID4Aliens were running from some
*really* bad guys that had kicked *them* off there home world. These guys
will show up for the sequel.  <g>

And I really feel the pain of all our European friends bemoaning the role
of the US in ID4.  Tell you what, you can be the heroes in the sequel.  I'm
sure the producers would be receptive...if you ante up the 200mil it'll
take to film it. 


Eris,
  the heretic
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 00:36:56 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

On 02/27/97 at 04:39 PM,  Joel Pratt <jpratt@ucla.edu> said:

> And any "lifetime" subscriber to Strategy & Tactics can tell you what TSR
> *really* stands for:
> Tough Shit, Readers.

Didn't that really piss you off?  Man, I *liked* S&T...grumble...grumble!


Eris
- -- 
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 00:22:35 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Jump Space: Hot and Heavy!

On 02/27/97 at 02:11 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> Given this, it is likely that the materials and equipment used to  "cool
> down" (damn, we need a better term---

Dissipate!

The jump interface isn't HOT, it's just filled with degenerate matter
*leaking* into hyperspace.  In fact hyperspace is dead cold and sucks heat
from the jump bubble, explaining why ship's don't have to worry all that
much about radiators. <g>

See, the "jump fuel" is used to force open a rift in space between normal
and Jump (or hyperspace).  The reason it takes 10% of ship volume
regardless of jump distance is because the "fuel" is simply opening a rift
large enough to allow the ship and a surrounding bubble of normal space to
enter hyperspace.  

During the next week this "fuel", dissipates slowly into hyperspace
thinning the surrounding shell.  After about 1 week (and it varies because
more or less "fuel"..of varying purity is injected, the "fuel" dissipates
at slightly different rates, and the local conditions of hyperspace are
never really known) the shell has thinned to the point where the ship POPS
out of hyperspace and back into normal space.


Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 23:21:13 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: 2300AD and the Four Horsemen!

On 02/27/97 at 11:56 AM,  John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> said:

> >the Four Horseman of the Apocalyse!  Can I be War, please huh? please!

> 	You can be War but only if I can be Pestilence!  Considering the way
> he's eating these days, David should probably be Famine. Eris, that makes
> you Death. ;-)

The way I feel today, that fits! ;-p

> 	Speaking as someone who believes that the advanced ship combat  system
> should be based on _percentile_ dice, I am firmly in the heretic  camp.  

> 	Having to roll handfulls of dice for everything is just a
> nuisance.  I liked the 2300AD combat system that used D10s.  You could
> resolve the entire attack in one roll by using three dice of different
> colors, one for to-hit, one for location, one for damage. 

Hey, it's a little off the subject, but talk to me about 2300AD.  I own
Traveller 2300, but I didn't buy 2300AD when it came
out...figured it was the same product, different name.  Now I'm not so
sure.

Tw2300 was a nice idea, but it just didn't seem have much meat on it's
bones.  I couldn't get into the system and no ship building system sort of
killed it for me.

Is 2300AD a real improvement over Tw2300?  Enough to warrent
spending the $15 to $20 to get a used copy?  What about Star
Crusier...if I could find it would it be worth looking for?

Eris
- -- 
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1005
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Friday, February 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1006



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Duck Soup
Re: Roswell Incident
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)
Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)
Re: Old foggies quiz
Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?
Re: Characteristics
Re: ID4 and Americans
M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:
Jump lengths
Re: 2300AD and the Four Horsemen!
Modular Cutter
Re: The Famous Week Long Jump (long)
Re: Blackmoor
Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?
Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 02:31:02 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Duck Soup

Craig Berry writes:

>FASA stands for "Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration," 
>by the way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can 
>tell me the origin of the name "Freedonia."

   Freedonia was of course the small, nearly bankrupt country that
called Rufus T. Firefly its leader in the film "Duck Soup".

   For the record....

   "Duck Soup", released in 1933, directed by Leo McCarey, and starring:

Groucho Marx....Rufus T. Firefly
Harpo Marx....Pinky
Chico Marx....Chicolini
Zeppo Marx....Bob Rolland
Margaret Dumont....Mrs. Teasdale
Raquel Torres....Vera Marcal
Louis Calhern....Ambassador Trentino

   Though it now is considered a film classic, "Duck Soup" was not
particularly successful when it was originally released.  Most noted
for  Harpo's famous mirror sequence.  This was the last film the Marx
Brothers did for Parmount Pictures before moving on to MGM.

   And now a quote:

Rufus T. Firefly: "You're a brave man. Go and break through the lines. 
And remember, while you're out there risking you're life and limb
through shot and shell, we'll be in be in here thinking what a sucker
you are."

   I've threaten to do a parody adventure set in the TNE Reformation
Coalition based on this film.  First though, I have to finish work on my
Traveller version of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 02:46:09 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Roswell Incident

Harald Budschedl writes:

>Hah! That'S a good question!
>On the one side, culture is SO MUCH MORE than language, that I would
>question anyway, how well people from different star-systems could
>possibly understand each other.
>On the other side, it's recently possible on our planet, that people
>form different cultures communicate and even deal with each other, and
>not trying to eliminate everything and everybody, they don't >understand.

   True, but mass communications (TV, film, the Internet) tend to
homogenize cultures.  I think that's what frightens some people in
Europe the most about letting in all those American films, TV programs,
etc. unmolested.  They're afraid that in a generation or two, French,
Dutch, Italian, (fill in the blank) culture will be erased, or at least
will have been bastardized to the point being unrecognizable to previous
generations.  We can look to the stars for the Borg, or we can simply
look at that big cultural lab across the pond and see it here on Earth.

   Of course we here in the US don't like being called "cultural Borgs",
but then if you understand the reference to the Borg, you may have
already been assimilated...

   As to the other side of the coin, I have noted that physical comedy
tends to transcend cultures.  That's why so many people in France find
Jerry Lewis to very funny, even if their understanding of English isn't
always perfect.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:38:13 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

> Remember Anders, the number of races who invented jumpdrives is Six: Vilani, Solomani, Zho's, Hiver, K'kree, and Aslan. Make that five: Aslan copied theirs. There are persistant rumors that *all* the> 
> Now, if the Ancients weren't the ones who perfected jump grid energy dissipation, I don't know who did...
> 
> Even If one assumes the five major races independently came up with Jump Drives, don't you think that's a really small sample? Maybe the most efficient "cooling" mechinism or materials are also the m> 
> I guess my point is, *every* jump drive in the Traveller universe is a copy of either an Ancient's drive (eg. Geonee), or one of a mere *5* differing designs. Low tech or high tech, the drives work o> 

More good thoughts from the guru of jumpspace.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 03:03:54 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

John Macpherson writes:

>You can be War but only if I can be Pestilence!  Considering the
>way he's eating these days, David should probably be Famine. Eris, 
>that makes you Death. ;-)

   Cool!  Now let's recruit some minions and go off and rape and pillage
and burn.  John, you make all the black D6s lop-sided so that they
always roll off into the floor.  David, you make them hard to find at
game stores.  Eris, you cause them to roll spectacular failures that
result in the demise of PCs.  I'll of course will cause hoards of
orthodox TNE players to rise out of the ground and join unsuspecting
Traveller groups where they will demand to be allowed to use D20s to
roll for tasks, thus creating conflict and causing Traveller fans to
turn on each other as they fight for dice control. <insert evil laugh
here>

   We ride!!!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 03:20:52 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

Roderick Darroch Elliott writes:

>        I wanna be Beast of the Apocalypse.  At the least.
>
>"...and his number was a human number, and his number was 42."

   Done.  You can propose a compromise task resolution system based on
the number 60 which will appear to allow D20 and D6 players to sit at
the same table (D20 people using 3D20, D6 people using 10D6), but will
instead only wreak further havoc and spread further chaos as people get
all those dice mixed together, argue over whether to adopt the TNE or T4
names for difficulty levels, and debate which era of the Spinward
Marches to use instead of the primary settings that came with their
respective versions of their games....

   We ride!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:10:13 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

>Okay, so having determined the arcane meaning of TSR, who can
>answer the following?

The answers are

>what does FASA stand for?

Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration

>what does SPI stand for?

Simulations Publications Incorporated.

>What were SPI's RPG's called?

Dragonquest and Universe (the rules were written in the same
format to the rules for their wargames) and of course: Dallas
(arguable the strangest RPG ever produced)

>What was GDW noted for before traveller?

I was actually thinking of the Europa series of wargames. Does
anyone know if it was ever finished? I know four parts were
published.

>What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?

3D+3, in the very first edition of traveller, most of the
weapons did xD+x damage. From memory a carbine did 2D+4.
You added the extra were you saw fit. It made that first
shot all the more lethal.

>What was the Chaosium's magazine dedicated to RuneQuest?

Wyrms Footnotes

>What does SORAG mean?

Special Operations Research Activities Group

>Who was Gigi D'Arn?

Anonymous (and possible fictional) gossip columist in
Different Worlds. One of the most "fun" bits to read.

>What issue did JTAS start using colour?

Issue 13

>Who produced C&S?

Fantasy Games Unlimited, it was role playing, but was it
a game :*)

>What was GDW's modern minatures rules called?

Tacforce, produced with GHQ in 1980. It came in a box with
3 5.5" x 8.5" rulebooks. If you look at it you can find alot
of the concepts which would latter appear in Striker. Had one
of the best lines I've ever read regarding the M728 Combat
Engineering Vehicle "Manuals stress it is not a tank and is
not to be used as such; which probably means it will be"
Command Decision was a set of 2nd World War rules (at least
initially).

>Anybody able to answer all these questions has spent far too
>long playing RPG's :*).

Anybody under 30 who could answer 6 of the 11 questions should
really get out more :*)

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  "Multiples aren't crazy,
   Just very very complicated"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:38:52 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?

Bruce wrote:

>Second, SciAm puts out a CD-rom index with abstracts of all their issues
back to the early >40's, I think...this is something that would have
appeared in the 60's or 70's after the >original work was declassified.

>Surely SOMEONE out there in TML land has this index or access to it?

If they do, can they let me know!  It sounds just the kind of thing that I
could be
buying for our library.  (Depending on cost of course.)  Of course, then
I'd have access
to it on behalf of TML as well!

Meanwhile I can do you full text of the New Scientist back to 1990.

Gosh, Traveller relating to work for once - I knew I could justify being on
 this list.

:-)

tc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:48:21 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Characteristics

>If the skill level accurately describes the skill of the person, are
>any two skill_3 people at the same level of skill?  I would actually
>say no--but they have the same training.

I would say yes but it seems we disagree due to different definitions. You
seem to imply that skill level is the amount (time) of training done but I
see it as the actual ability. I therefore do not like the lvl 3 is a doctor
but rather set up a task to to get a doctors title. In my universe skill
levels are not numbers but names in the progression:

Untrained/unskilled
Bad/rookie
Normal/average/fair
Good/experienced
Very good/expert
Extremely good/master

This coupled to the fact that attributes doesn't add to the task roll makes
my skill level equivalent to ability to do a task. When a NPC ship shoots
at the players all I need to know is the gunners skill, the pilots skill et
c. I do not need to roll up the UPP of the crew and if all SDB crews are
experienced I need only know that (that all SDB crew should be skill 3 AND
DEX 8 seems a bit stupid to me).
I do not use CT, MT, TNE or T4 tasksystem so maybe I should shut up in the
ongoing debate on how to fix the badly broken task system in T4. After all,
I will never use it myself unless you fix it to look exactly like mine or
even better like the FUDGE system.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:51:46 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

>The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
>country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.

 Give me a quote, I don't know the lyrics as it is generally instrumentally
played at the sports arenas.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:46:48 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:

And the question to those who know by now is:
Have the locations and names changed back to the DGP-data or do we 
have entirely new maps?
What has cnow, only the UWP to reflect a situation 1000 years prior 
to 1100 or did they thwow everything overboard!

Ah, my local store just told me, M0 has arrived, now i only have to 
wait 3 week till i can go home and finally behold the perfect product 
in all it's glory! 
Still, an answer would be appreciated!
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:51:28 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Jump lengths

A version I used for a couple of weeks before tossing it away as it made
message time calculations a bit harder to do.

First of all base the canon jumptime on 6 days instead of 7 to account for
refueling et c but mostly for a more divisible number.
Ships charge up their jumpgrid for an hour or something depending on
p-plant output et c. While in jumpspace the jumpdrive contiuously burns
fuel (ignoring canon droptanks) as of the formula:
10% of ship volume per parsec no matter what J-drive.
Time taken: 6/Jn per parsec which makes all maxjumps take 6 days. The
problem with this system is that microjumps takes almost no fuel and no
time (bye bye nonjumpcapable ships) so I had to invent the 1 hour or
something charge up time for jumpgrid. Another problem is that you always
use the higher jumpdrive, even if only going 1 parsec which makes it less
likely that traders would have J1.

I stopped using it after a few weeks as the feel for the game changed a lot
but some heretics out there might like it.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:39:57 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: 2300AD and the Four Horsemen!

>Is 2300AD a real improvement over Tw2300?  Enough to warrent
>spending the $15 to $20 to get a used copy?  What about Star
>Crusier...if I could find it would it be worth looking for?
>
>Eris

Much better graphics, rules et c. Buy it!
I use it mainly for scanning illos off Traveller equipment and stuff.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:40:15 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Modular Cutter

	Here is two re-designed versions of the 50-ton modular cutter.
	I made these designs after I found out that the existing cutters
	(both in TNE and T4) had several design errors.

	While the first cutter has HEPlaR thruster and only 30,000 km
	PEMS sensor, it is lighter and has much lower price tag than the
	second cutter with T-plate thruster.

	The data is given in BL and T4 formats.

- ---

Modular Cutter/HEPlaR

General Data
Displacement: 50 tons			Hull Armor: 40
Length: 33.05 meters			Volume: 700 m3
Price: MCr 21.4				Target Size: VS
Configuration: Streamlined Needle	Tech Level: 12
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 586.2 / 470.9

Engineering Data
Power Plant: 100 MW Fusion Power Plant, 1 year duration (15 m3)
G-Rating: 3G HEPlaR (29.4 MW/G),
	Auxiliary 1G High Efficiency AG (4.2 MW/G)
G-Turns: 36
Maint: 18

Electronics
Computer: 2xTL-12 Standard computer (0.4 MW)
Commo: Maser (Unlimited; 0.6 MW), Radio (1 hex; 1 MW)
Avionics: Imaging EMS, IGS positioning, 160 km/h NOE
Sensors: AEMS (0.01 hex; 5 MW), PEMS (1 hex; 0.03 MW)
Controls: No bridge, 2 normal workstations

Armament
None

Accommodations
Life Support: Extended (0.1076 MW), Gravitic Compensators (2.69 MW)
Crew: 2 (1xManeuver, 1xElectronics)
Crew Accommodations: Cockpit
Passenger Accommodations: Varies depending upon module fitted
Cargo: 420 m3 module (30 tons), 1 Large Hatches
Air Locks: 1

Notes
Total Fuel Tankage: 147.3 m3 (10.5 tons).
Fuel scoops (15% of ship surface), fills tanks in 0.35 hours


Modular Cutter/Thruster

General Data
Displacement: 50 tons			Hull Armor: 40
Length: 33.05 meters			Volume: 700 m3
Price: MCr 38				Target Size: VS
Configuration: Streamlined Needle	Tech Level: 12
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 701.5 / 578.1

Engineering Data
Power Plant: 82 MW Fusion Power Plant, 1 year duration (12.3 m3)
Jump Performance: 0 (0 m3)
G-Rating: 4G Thruster plate (17.5 MW/G),
	Auxiliary 1G High Efficiency AG (5 MW/G)
G-Turns: Unlimited
Maint: 23

Electronics
Computer: 2xTL-12 Standard computer (0.4 MW)
Commo: Maser (Unlimited; 0.6 MW), Radio (1 hex; 1 MW)
Avionics: Imaging EMS, IGS positioning, 160 km/h NOE
Sensors: AEMS (0.01 hex; 5 MW), PEMS (2 hex; 0.06 MW)
Controls: No bridge, 2 normal workstations

Armament
None

Accommodations
Life Support: Extended (0.1344 MW), Gravitic Compensators (3.36 MW)
Crew: 2 (1xManeuver, 1xElectronics)
Crew Accommodations: Cockpit
Passenger Accommodations: Varies depending upon module fitted
Cargo: 70 m3 (5 tons), 420 m3 module (30 tons), 1 Large Hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: None
Air Locks: 1

Notes
Total Fuel Tankage: 12.3 m3 (0.9 tons).
Fuel scoops (15% of ship surface), fills tanks in 0.03 hours

- ---

Modular Cutter/HEPlaR (Starship-V2)

Tons: 50 (Needle SL)	Volume: 700 m3		Cost: 21.364 MCr
Crew: 2			High/Mid Pass: 0	Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 0 tons		Controls: Std		TL: 12

7 Size			0 Jump drive
0 Fire Control		3 Maneuver (HEPlaR, 88.2 MW, 18 G-hours)
			4 Power Plant (100 MW)
			10.5 Fuel (Scoop 30)
			0 Meson Screen (0 MW)
			0 Sandcasters (0 cans)
			0 Nuclear Damper
			0.01A 1P 0J Sensors
			20 Armor, 4 Structure

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics
Accom: Cockpit
Average density: 0.84 ton/m3, the ship will float on water.
Notes: Price includes one 30 DT cargo module


Modular Cutter/Thruster (Starship-V2)

Tons: 50 (Needle SL)	Volume: 700 m3		Cost: 38.004 MCr
Crew: 2			High/Mid Pass: 0	Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 5 tons		Controls: Std		TL: 12

7 Size			0 Jump drive
0 Fire Control		4 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 70 MW)
			3.3 Power Plant (82 MW)
			0.9 Fuel (Scoop 30)
			0 Meson Screen (0 MW)
			0 Sandcasters (0 cans)
			0 Nuclear Damper
			0.01A 2P 0J Sensors
			20 Armor, 6 Structure

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics
Accom: Cockpit
Average density: 1 ton/m3.
Notes: Price includes one 30 DT cargo module

Modular Cutter: The Modular Cutter is a multi-purpose cargo vehicle
which can be fitted with a variety of 30-ton (420 m3) modules. The
outer shell of the cutter's mid part open as a large cargo hatch, and
a module is attached to the cutter's spine between the cockpit and
engine. The cargo hold has lighter armor that the rest of the cutter
(AV 20, Armor 10), but counts as normal armor (AV 40, Armor 20)
when a cargo module is carried internally.
The cutter has build-in fuel scoops which are used only when a fuel
module is or flexible 30 DT fuel bladder is fitted in the cargo hold.

The external dimensions of cargo modules are 4.60 x 25.26 m.


30-ton Cargo Module

Tons: 30 (Needle USL)	Volume: 420 m3		Cost: 83 kCr
Crew: 0			High/Mid Pass: 0	Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 29.6 tons	Controls: None		TL: 12

7 Size			10 Armor, 4 Structure

Cargo Module: Cargo modules are lightly armored interchangeable cargo
containers carried internally in the modular cutter. The cargo module
has 414 m3 (29.6 DT) internal volume, and can withstand 4G acceleration.
The mass of fully loaded cargo module is 195 tons.


30-ton Troop Carrier Module

Tons: 30 (Needle USL)	Volume: 420 m3		Cost: 134 kCr
Crew: 0			High/Mid Pass: 0	Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 1.5 tons		Controls: None		TL: 12

7 Size			10 Armor, 4 Structure

Accom: 32 adequate seats, 10 DT minimal hangar

Troop Carrier Module: The troop carrier module is used to transport
soldiers and vehicles to surface targets. The module contains 10 DT
minimal hangar, 1.5 DT cargo space, and seats for 32 troopers.
The hangar may contain any suitable large vehicle (large truck or a
huge tank) or mix of smaller vehicles (5 APCs or IFVs) as long as the
total displacement of carried vehicles does not exceed 10 DT.



        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:58:06 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: The Famous Week Long Jump (long)

The notion that Jump will always take 1 week (168 hours) is an
oversimplification.

	 The (IMHO) best rules for jump duration were those given in Starship
Operators Manual by DGP which stated (page 64) that the actual duration
of a jump was 124 + (2d6 * 6) hours.  This formula gives a variable
duration of between 136 hours (5 days & 16 hours) and 196 hours (8 days
& 4 hours) with a mean duration of 166 hours ( 6 days & 22 hours).

	Starship Operators Handbook further stated (pg 65) that if a
superficial mishap occured duuring jump that the ship would emerge at
the correct destination system after a jump of 80 + (3d6 * 10) hours. 
This formula gives a minimum jump duration of 110 hours ( 4 days & 14
hours) a mean duration of 185 hours (7 days & 17 hours) and a maximum
duration of 260 hours (10 days & 20 hours).  Since a superficail mishap
during jump entry is not uncommon (especially among lesser skilled (i.e.
merchant) crews, we need to realize that the "1 week" duration of jump
is just a slightly oversimplified mean duration.

	Furthermore DGP implies that starships have some control over the time
length of their jumps.  In the MegaTraveller Journal #2 they said in
response to a question about how naval forces jumping into a system can
manage to launch an assault when their ships are going to be exiting
jump many hours apart ( a good question) that " If double the jump
preperation time is spent with all the affected ships in computer link
via tight beam communicator, use the folloing formula instead  167 hours
+ (2d6 * 0.1 hour) yielding a result of 167.2 - 168.2 hours." The mean
length of such a coordinated jump would be 167.6 hours.

	This statement (while perhaps no longer canonical) has some _very_
interesting implications.  If a bunch of ships can reduce the mean
variability of their jump by _60_ fold they must have some control over
their entry into jump space and the corresponding length of their trip. 
Therefore in my campaigns the following variant rule (which requires the
use of the MT Task Duration System) is used:

	If a starship spends 100 times the normal duration (a task which
_may_not be done hastily) preparing for jump they can reduce the mean
duration of their jump as follows.  Instead of rolling 124 + (2d6 *6)
hours for the duration of the jump the ship may roll twice and use the
shortest jump duration.  My calculations indicate that the mean roll of
the lowest of 2 throws of 2d6 will be 5.267.  Therefore by using this
method a ship can reduce its average jump duration by an mean average of
10.4 hours.  This would result in an average savings of 6.25% in jump
duration if not for the time lost making these calculations.  In
Starship Operators Manual by DGP states (pg64) that the Task Time
Increment for Jump calculations is as follows.

TL	Task		Average		Average		X 100 Duration
 	Time		Seconds		Duration	in hours or
	Increment 	Duration 	x 100 (seconds) minutes  	
			
9	360s		3780s		378,000s	105h
10	240s		2520s		252,000s	70h
11	120s		1260s		126,000s	35h
12	60s		630s		63,000s		17.5h
13	30s		315s		31,500s		8.75h
14	15s		157.5s		15,750s		4.375h
15	7s		73.5s		7,350s		2.042h
16	4s		42s		4,200s		70m
The Following Tech Levels Time Duration is Extrapolated
17	2s		21s		2,100s		35m
18	1s		10.5s		1,050s		17.5m
19	0.5s		5.25s		525s		8.75m
20	0.25s		2.625s		262.5s		4.375m
	
	Please note that the mean time duration for these tasks was calculated
assuming no positive skill modifiers - obviously a skilled astrogator
could speed up the duration of these calculations somewhat.	

	Using this optional rule a ship of TL 13 (or a Tl 12 ship with a good
very good astrogator) or better can save several hours off the mean
expected time duration of a jump.  However just because they can does
not mean that they _should_.  Starships using this procedure are very
vulnerable to attack while they are plotting their jump entry.  As
starship crews are aware of this the referee can assign slight penalties
to the morale of ships which reguarly use this technique.  In my
campaign the only ships which reguarly use this technique are Naval
Couriers and Imperiallines secret J6 couriers, ships for whom speed is
THE priority and who are armed to defend themselves.  A TL 15 ship using
these techniques for every jump will be able to shave an average of 8.36
hours off of every jump.  This will save about 12 days (depending on
your conception of the route & number of jumps in) off of the
Capital/Core to Regina/Spinward Marches route.

	This rule may prove too subtle or nitpicking for some campaigns but I
see it as a logical extention of canonical theory which can make for an
interesting little variant on jump travel which will not upset the
Imperium in any way as it is too minor a change to strain continuity.  I
am assuming that this technique is not secret and was first tried by the
Rule of Man but you may change this at your whim.

	This task might be much easier or shorter in duration if conducted by a
Psionicist with Prescience (precognition), the details of such as system
are left as an exercise for the reader.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:38:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Blackmoor

In mail you write:

> was Book 5 for D&D, I have a copy.
>
> The Blackmoor campaign system was never published separately.

Dave Arneson made a deal with Judge's Guild, and they published his
Blackmoor stuff pretty much intact.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:05:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?

In mail you write:

> Second, SciAm puts out a CD-rom index with abstracts of all their issues
> back to the early 40's, I think...this is something that would have
> appeared in the 60's or 70's after the original work was declassified.

There was at least one *book* about the nuclear propulsion for aircraft
project, and it was available to check out (by dependents like me) at
the local airbase's library in the late 60s. I read it, but not much
stuck. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:30:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

In mail you write:

>> Just consider it an Article
>> of Faith in the Traveller's Creed ("We believe in one die, with six sides
>> and spots") and leave it at that.
>> Trent Smith
>
> For the truly orthodox, among whom I count myself (-:, that article should
> be:
>
> We believe in one die,_ black_, with six sides and _red_ spots.

Painted on, no drilling!

I still have my set of "Traveller dice" around somewhere. They got used
for rolling damage in D&D a lot... black dice with red spots are *so*
symbolic for that sort of thing!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1006
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Friday, February 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1007



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bonus Points revoked!
Re: micro survey
Re: One System Games
Re: What are the chances of THAT happening??
Re: Mini-survey
Re: micro survey
Re: Alternative Jump Methods?
Paint/smoke (was: Re: [TML] A couple of rules questions)
Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Starship Troopers
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?
Re: [TML] A couple of rules questions
Re: micro survey
Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)
Space Opera - Sort of!
Dark Star #3 Delayed
Re: ID4 and Americans
Death in the Family
Re: micro survey
Re: Old foggies quiz

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:17:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bonus Points revoked!

In mail you write:

> FASA stands for "Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration," by the
> way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can ell me the
> origin of the name "Freedonia."

It was either the country that "The Great Dictator" ruled, or the
country in a marx brother's movie that I can't recall the title of.
Either way it was your typical, mythical Balkan country in the mode of
Graustark and Ruritania.

It was also the name of an asteroid that figured prominently in Jack
Williamson's "SeeTee Shock" and "SeeTee Ship" books (SeeTee = CT =
contra-terrene = antimatter)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:11:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: micro survey

In mail you write:

>    But I agree with you; D&D was not the first fantasy RPG. I think that
>    was "Empire of the Petal Throne", a cult classic from the early
>    seventies. I haven't seen it in over a decade. I've never played it
>    either, but I'd like to. I heard various rumors and legends about why
>    it never became a hit, some of them quite spiteful.

EPT was published by TSR. It's still around, and on its third or fourth
publisher. There's a mailing list, and a (low traffic once you get rid
of the spam) newsgroup:
 list:	blueroom@prin.edu
group:	alt.games.frp.tekumel
  ftp:	ftp://nexus.prin.edu
  www:	http://nexus.prin.edu

BTW, *technically* EPT is an SF RPG!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:52:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: One System Games

In mail you write:

> I ran a part of my still going 8 real years campaign on Victoria in
> Spinward marches. the players lived on Victoria for 8 real months helping
> to bring the Chirpers living there back to Droyne status by the help of a
> Coyn collection and started an arms race between two low tech zeppelin
> cultures. I based Victoria on the Journal #2 writeup and also borrowed
> heavily from "Prisoners of the sky" by whoever.

John D. MacDonald. Much better known for his mystery stories, he *has*
written some SF. "Prisoners of the Sky" is so-so. "The Girl, the Gold
Watch, and Everything" is much better, and while not strictly
Traveller, is easily adapted. It's the gimmick with a guy inheriting a
watch that lets him "stop time". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:22:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What are the chances of THAT happening??

In mail you write:

>>Just one thing, 6D task: rolls are 1,1,1,6,6,6
>
> Oh fer cryin' out loud...
>
> That's easy! The Spectacular Success cancels out the Spectacular Failure!

Just remember to *do* it that way. 

This would be one of those things where just as you take that tricky
shot you slip on a banana peel, the shot goes wild and ricochets all
over the place, and the target ducks *into* the path of the ricochet.
:-)

Or the bomb you are trying to defuse goes off, but due to a freak
interaction of the blast shock, both you *and* the goodies it was a
booby-trap on wind up landing safe and sound outside the destruction
radius. Except for your clothes... :-)

Also know as "falling into a cesspool and coming up with a diamond
bracelet." 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:34:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mini-survey

In mail you write:

>>1. What SF RPGs existed before Traveller?
>
> According to Lawrence Schick's HEROIC WORLDS, Flying Buffalo published a
> SFRPG called "Starfaring" that came out a few months before Traveller. It
> was based on the Tunnels and Trolls rules and was not a serious game, and
> therefore virtually dissapeared from the market when Traveller (the first
> REAL SFRPG) appeared. it is also possible (although I'm not sure) that
> "Metamorphisis Alpha" (a.k.a. "D&D in Space") might have come out before
> Traveller, but I don't think so.

Met:Alpha *was* out before Traveller. I bought it. I *think* that
"Villians and Vigilantes" (superhero RPG) was also out before
Traveller, but I wouldn't swear to it. 

There were also some SF wargames, and SF miniatures rules that could be
used by the desperate. I used some of them to add SF weaponry to my D&D
games (I started playing in 74).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:51:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: micro survey

In mail you write:

>>Actually, Traveller is the second oldest RPG.

Incorrect. There were a *lot* of RPGs released in the 73 to 77
timespan. I know, I was gaming then.

> Traveller may well be the fisrt SF rpg but D&D was NOT the fisrt fantasy rpg=
> .
> That one goes to the Blackmoor, Eldritch wizardry whatever=8A books by TSR
> that came before D&D upon which D&D was based. (I have the books)

Sorry, but D&D started out with three digest sized booklets, just like
Traveller. It was based on the "fantasy" appendix to the Chainmail
miniatures rules. The first *supplement* to D&D was Greyhawk, the next
was Blackmoor, and Eldritch Wizardry was either the third or fourth. 

I know, because i *own* all of these. The 8.5x11 booklets were "Basic"
D&D, which later grew into the "new" D&D (at which point the old digest
sized books became "original" D&D). These came out around the same time
as AD&D first edition. And much later than things like Tunnels and
Trolls, "Monsters! Monsters!", Arduin Grimoire, etc.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:16:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alternative Jump Methods?

In mail you write:

>        I tried several approaches to the Alderson Drive problem.  The drive
> itself was simply the "Keyhole Drive" found in the alternate technologies
> section of GDW's "FF&S" pg.44.  My attempts to calculate the Alderson Point
> itself were always unsatisfactory as calculating the Alderson Pts. relies
> upon lines of equal thermonuclear flux(luminosity).  I eventually settled on
> the formula: Alderson Pt(A) in au = sqrt((Luminosity of Star B/Luminosity of
> Star A)times ((2d6-1)^2).  Alderson Pt(B) is simply the the previous (2D6-1)
> in au distance.  To avoid any unusually large distances I mandated that Star
> A will always be the star with greatest luminosity between the pair.

One thing to keep in mind is that white dwarfs, neutron stars, and
black holes *don't* have thermonuclear flux. The WDs are radiating away
heat energy, and only shine for such a long time because they are so
hot at formation and have so little surface area to radiate away the heat.

It's possible to get an intermittent tramline between a black hole and
a star under special circumstances (see "He fell into a Hole", one of
the CoDominium short stories). Doing so with neutron stars or white
dwarfs is going to be a lot harder.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:03:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Paint/smoke (was: Re: [TML] A couple of rules questions)

In mail you write:

> 3.  Paint/Smoke grenades in a vacuum.  A player came up with this.  The idea
> is that the grenade goes off, filling the corridor, room, etc., with
> droplets of paint or dust, in order to obscure sight. Paint would have the
> possible advantage of smearing visors, etc., while dust of some sort would
> have the possible advantage of endurance (because it'd not stick to the
> first surface with which it came into contact).
>
> Would this work?  Why/why not?

Smoke consists of *very* small (micron sized) *solid* particles. In
vacuum, the hard part is getting them distributed evenly. They'll come
out in jets, from the grenade and travel in essentially a straight line
(ie cone shaped path if the grenade is stationary). 

Worse, without air, there's nothing to slow the fall of the particles.
In air, they are bounced around by Brownian motion. In a vacuum, they
act like any other solid body. So if there is any gravity, they'll fall
to the floor just as fast as a baseball. And there goes your "cover".

Paint would be a bit easier, as it is spread by the (minor) explosion
of the grenade. On the downside, you'll need a formulation that'll dry
at a suitable rate. Not too fast (or it'll dry before it hits most of
the target and before it can spread around), not too slow (or it'll be
too easy to clean off).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:55:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Starship Troopers

In mail you write:

>> As for the movie; it's so bad that Virginia Heinlein (Robert's widow) is
>> considering a lawsuit to get his name removed from the project.  How bad is
>> it?  No power armor, none of the scenes where the morality of being a
>> soldier is discussed (the heart of the book!), OCS has been cut, and the
>> entire plot has been changed.
>> 
>> *Bleah*
>
> Figures. If the movie reflects the typical Hollywierd view of the
> military, then she should sue the bastards. Problem: when you sell movie
> rights, you also sell a certain amount of creative control. "Ginnie" may
> not have a legal leg to stand on, dash the luck.

Not necessarily. She can't force them to change the plot. But the one
thing they *can't* do is force an author to let them use his name if
they've screwed it up too badly. If nothing else, the author can make
them use a pen name. Harlan Ellison uses "Cordwainer Bird" (giving them
the bird) for the turkeys they make out of his stuff. David Gerrold
uses "Noah Ward" (No Award). The one Heinlein used for his stories that
wound up going to the *really* awful pulps was "Lyle Monroe".

So she could likely get the name changed, but I suspect getting it
totally removed is what she'd rather have happen.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:23:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

In mail you write:

>>Sidebar: The reason why Lanthanum is used in the production of the jump 
>>grid is because its properties are such that it is the most efficient at 
>>"cooling". Other rare earths can be substituted at the expense of longer 
>>times for jump.
>
> OoOoOoOoh. I like this.  Not only does it give me a semi-rational
> explanation (much more satisfying than "just because"), but it also opens
> up all kinds of potential game developments:  What would a new jump engine
> development be worth to the military, if you could suddenly predict this
> reaction time to 168 hours +/- 1% or even better, instead of 10%?

Here's a free suggestion for anyone with the reference materials at
hand...

Assume the 10% spread is due to the presence of multiple isotopes of
lathanum. So if you could afford to seperate the isotopes, you'd get
more accuracy. Of course, if lathanum has only one stable isotope, this
won't work. 

> What if someone came
> up with a new compound (a yttrium and copper clathrate surrounding a rare
> lanthanum isotope, say :) ) that is even more efficient than straight
> lanthanum?  

There's a rare earth element that is the *obvious* candidate for
shorter jump times. And the presence of impurities should increase the
uncertainty. Technetium. :-)

It has *no* stable isotopes. So it'll be very expensive and hazardous
to use. And since it's continually breaking down into other elements,
the uncertainty in jump duration goes up as the grid ages. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:01:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fission Rockets in Real Life?

In mail you write:

> This sounds a *LOT* like something I read about in "Scientific American" a
> while ago: a supersonic, low-altitude, robotic bomber, powered by an
> atomic ram-jet (essentially an unshielded fission reactor).  According to
> the article, the bomber (or, if you prefer, "cruise missle") was never
> assembled and flown, but its engine was test-fired, by running compressed
> air (stored in hundreds of meters of pipe) through it.  I don't trust my
> memory, but I think the project was called "S.L.A.M." (which stood for
> supersonic low-altitude missle, or some such thing), the atomic ram-jet
> engine itself was called "Project Pluto," and the ungodly thing somehow
> got the nickname "the flying crowbar."  I also recall reading that one
> plan was to program the thing to fly back and forth over its target area
> after delivering its payload of bombs, spewing radioactive debris...
>
> Does this bit of late-'50s/early-'60s Cold War lunacy sound familiar to
> anyone, or is some Zhodani practical joker playing with my memory? 

The Air Force had *several* different plans for nuclear propelled
aircraft. The ramjet proposal was the most extreme. There were a couple
others using a reactor to supply power to propellers (via steam &
turbines in one version). They had their problems.

There was a story in F&SF(?) which later came out as a paperback set in
an alternate history where we actually *built* one of the steam powered
ones, and it got used.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:25:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [TML] A couple of rules questions

In mail you write:

> (BTW - Tx to all of you who did throw in yr Cr02 - most helpful and
> educational!), I got to thinking...  It's pretty cold in a vacuum not
> exposed to sunlight.  What sorts of chemicals would stay liquid in such an
> environment - or at least gooey/sticky enough to be a hazard? Tx! - Bill

Vacuum has *no* temperature. The liquid would cool from evaporation,
and would cool or heat via radiation depending on the temp of its
surroundings. And it'll gain/lose heat via conduction once it actually
*touches* something.

The bit about "not exposed to sunlight" only applies if there's a *lot*
of insulation between the lit side and the dark side. Coat a sheet of
metal with carbon black (99% absorbent of incoming energy) and expose
it to the sun. Touch the side that's in shadow, and you'll fry your
glove.

BTW, there's an interesting phenomenon that was discovered in the early
space program. Food crumbs floating in the cabin were observed to drift
to the window. It couldn't be air currents, as the air in the cabin
didn't circulate (it was only there so the astronaut could open his
faceplate to eat and drink). The final answer was quite simple, but not
anything that had been thought of in advance. It's something that bored
crews might use to amuse passengers or to trick a new crew member who
hasn't been in space before.

So, the question is.... What is going on?
























The answer? The window faced open space, at 3K. So the side of the
crumb facing the window lost heat via radiation. It was a little bit
colder than the other side. So when air molecules bounced off that
side, they rebounded slower than ones that hit the other side. The net
effect was to push the crumb towards the window.

This only works with small, light particles. But I'm sure that
*someone* on the list will come up with a practical joke that makes use
of this obscure bit of physics. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:59:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: micro survey

In mail you write:

> My god, don't they teaach *any* history in school these days? :)
>
> In the beginning, TSR created Chainmail.  It was derived from ancients
> miniatures rules, adapted to man-to-man scale combat.  Almost as an
> afterthought, they tossed in some monster stats.  People loved it.

They also created "Warriors of Mars", a set of miniatures rules set on
Barsoom (Edgar Rice Burrough's Mars of the John Carter novels). Alas,
they neglected to get permission from the Burroughs estate. So they had
to pull it from the market. 

> Sensing a Good Thing, Gygax, Arneson, et al cranked out First Edition D&D
> shortly thereafter.  This consisted of three little books in a small
> box...a format certain other game companies copied a few years later.  The
> three original books were (and here I'm reaching into the dusty back rooms
> of my memory):
>
>   Men and Monsters
>   Tunnels and Treasure
>   Wilderness and Overland Adventures
>
> I may be utterly wrong about those titles, but the topic areas covered
> were as those names imply.  D&D was a runaway hit, but also a rather
> rickety framework on which to hang a game.  So TSR began producing
> supplements containing rules expansions, new monsters, and general
> backround material.

Also, since the monsters included some from Warriors of Mars, they had
to do a quick replacement of those *and* of the names they'd borrowed
from Tolkien's works (hobbits and Ents)

>  Unlike GDW's later pattern with Traveller, these
> supplements (the first three, anyway) didn't have single themes; each was
> a mish-mosh of whatever cool ideas were available at the time.  The first
> three were:
>
>   Greyhawk
>   Blackmoor
>   Eldritch Wizardry
>
> Somewhere around the publication of Blackmoor, Dave Hargrave released
> "Arduin Grimoire," a third-party supplement for D&D.  AG was famously
> bloody and "Monty Haul"-oriented.  The critical hit table from AG is one
> of the enduring classics of the RPG industry...for example, one entry read
> "Entire head pulped and splattered over wide area."

There was also the infamous Tunnels & Trolls. I loved the way they
handled combat. For a quick & dirty hack n'slash, it was great. Weapons
were good for X dice of damage (perhaps with extra bonuses as in "1 die
+2"). Both sides rolled up all their attacks and totalled them. The
side with the higher total inflicted the *difference* upon the saide
with the lower total. Armor took hit points. So if your sheild was good
for 5 points, after taking that much it was scrap and you got the excess.

Quick & dirty. I daresay it could be adapted to Traveller if someone
was sick enough. :-)

> Two bonus points, by the way, for the first person under 30 years of age
> to tell me what "TSR" stands for.  No fair peaking at the fine print in
> one of their publications!

Tactical Studies Rules. And their first publication (before The Dragon)
was The Strategic Review. It had such lovelies as "Sturmgeschutz and
Sorcery" subtitled "How effective is a Panzerfaust against a troll,
Heinz?" Which was a crossover between D&D and their WWII miniatures
rules. I still own my complete set of them, plus the copy of Tractics
that the above article inspired me to buy. One of the few games with
rules for use of nuclear weapons.... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:37:38 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

	Harold D. Hale wrote:

>
>   Done.  You can propose a compromise task resolution system based on
>the number 60 which will appear to allow D20 and D6 players to sit at
>the same table (D20 people using 3D20, D6 people using 10D6), but will
>instead only wreak further havoc and spread further chaos as people get
>all those dice mixed together, argue over whether to adopt the TNE or T4
>names for difficulty levels, and debate which era of the Spinward
>Marches to use instead of the primary settings that came with their
>respective versions of their games....
>
>   We ride!

	Ugh.  Too much math.  <Sheryl Crow music begins> "all I wanna do,
is slouch towards Bethlehem to be born..."

<//popculture&poetry&religion abuse mode= off>

	But actually, come to think of it, a base 60 number system makes a
certain amount of sense.  Of course, those poor benighted souls using 10
d6's would, if the Low End of The Distribution Factor (something based on
the standard deviation of the 6 d6's rolled) have to make a 1d6 +1d1 roll
(i.e. roll a d6 and flip a coin) or a 3d3 roll (actually preferable) and
subtract that from their score in order to determine whether they actually
manage to roll a 3 on 10d6.

	Let me get back to you on this.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:33:48 -0800
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Space Opera - Sort of!

Since someone mentioned Space Opera in a recent chronology of early RPGs, I
thought I'd mention that Ed Simbalist is currently working on a new SFRPG
(it can't be called Space Opera #2 for obvious reasons) for Highlander
Designs, the people who have just printed C&S3. It is supposed to be a 1998
release -- as I get more details I'll let people know.

Phil
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel
Co-Designer, Space Opera; Designer, Rigger Black Book

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:29:18 -0800
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Dark Star #3 Delayed

Well, the header says it all. I *did* say it would be an *irregular* effort
- -- and, what can I say, I have the go-ahead to work on a project for
Highlander Designs C&S3. And the deadline for the first draft is in just on
8 weeks. So, since I'll actually be getting *paid* for this work
(eventually), well, its no contest.

Once its out of the way I'll have some time - maybe (there are other
projects in the offing). But I *do* intend to get back to DS#3.

And PDF copies of DS#1 and #2 are available, as well as print copies of
DS#2.

Phil
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel
Co-Designer, Space Opera; Designer, Rigger Black Book

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 06:58:28 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

At 09:51 AM 2/28/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
>>country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.
>
> Give me a quote, I don't know the lyrics as it is generally instrumentally
>played at the sports arenas.

"... the rockets' red glare,
 the bombs bursting in air,
 the cows in their flight
 exploded with care..."

Okay, okay -- the first two lines are from the real anthem anyway. :)


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:29:26 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Death in the Family

I have had a death in the family and will be away from my office
for about a week.  During this time, I will have someone watching
the lists for problems, but administrative requests will not be
processed until I return.

I should be back on Friday 3/7

Please do not send sympathy messages.  I very much appreciate the thoughts
but I am a bit pre-occupied with the situation and I have too many plans to
make to have a lot of mail coming in right now. 

Thank You
Rob Miracle
your list admin!


Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:25:11 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: micro survey

Do you mean the game or the genre?  The former (from FGU) did and the latter
does!  I even have some 15mm (yeah!) figs for it - original manufacturer
unknown, but last issued by Stan Johansen Miniatures some years ago... - Bill

At 01:23 AM 2/27/97 EST, you wrote:
>Did space opera really exist? Or was it just bad hallucination? Probably
>around 1978-1985.
>dsf
>

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:25:47 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

At 06:53 AM 2/27/97 EST, you wrote:
>Okay, so having determined the arcane meaning of TSR, who can
>answer the following?
>
>what does FASA stand for?

Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration...

>what does SPI stand for?

Simulations Publications Inc...

>What were SPI's RPG's called?

DragonQuest; Universe!  I don't recall any others...

>What was GDW noted for before traveller?

Europa, among other historical things.  Imperium.  Triplanetary (YEAH -
yacht races to the belts!!!)

>What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?

3D-3 (Book 1, pg. 43)

>What was the Chaosium's magazine dedicated to RuneQuest?

Wyrm's Footnotes was pre-Runequest - from the era of White Bear and Red
Moon, and Nomad Gods...  Different Worlds first addressed RQ and succeeded WF...

>What does SORAG mean?

Study and Operations recording Activities Group (from Paranoia Press's
"SORAG"...)

>Who was Gigi D'Arn?

A really cool columnest from Different Worlds... Archtype of the hobby
rumormonger...

>What issue did JTAS start using colour?

What do you mean, "Color"?  #1 had a red, black, and white cover - is that
color?  Several early issues had three-color (that is, black, white, and a
third color - green, blue, red, or whatever) interiors and covers.  Issue
#9, dated 181-1107, had the first full-color cover showing atmosphere
fighters attacking over a city - the title was "War!"

>Who produced C&S?

Fantasy Games Unlimited

>What was GDW's modern minatures rules called?

TacForce...

>
>Anybody able to answer all these questions has spent far too
>long playing RPG's :*).

But, some of these weren't RPGs!  And, besides, I didn't play my first D&D
game until about XMas 1974!  Yr right, though...


>
>  Andrew etc.
>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>
>****************************************************************************
>  "Multiples aren't crazy,
>   Just very very complicated"
>****************************************************************************
>
>
>

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1007
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Friday, February 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1008



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT Broadsword hanger limits
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)
The Starship Troopers Thread
Heretics Anonymous
Re: Space Opera - Sort of!
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: The Famous Week Long Jump (long)
Re: The Famous Week Long Jump (long)
Blackmoor
Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Starship Troopers
Query on Combat Comments Please TIA
Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)
Honest Review of First Survey
2300AD/Traveller2300
Traveller--first SF RPG?
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Blackmoor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:48:42 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: CT Broadsword hanger limits

>QSDS has 'External Craft Grapples'...aren't those the same as 'Docking
>Rings?'
>That's the assumption I've been making...

No - a grapple bolts the craft flush to the hull (like the old
subzidized merchant); a docking ring has part of the craft inside
and part outside (like the old merc cruiser.)

Perhaps Wildstar should make some docking ring rules for QSDS real quick...
or we could all agree that the surface area requiremetns for grapples are
wrong and reduce them.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:03:03 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

Mike Sellers wrote:
> 
> At 04:29 PM 2/27/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
> >Someone posted an excellent idea about handwaving the week long jumptide.
> >The idea was an analog to the fact that if you drill a hole through earth
> >(or rather a homogenous sphere) and fell frictionless the time to fall
> >would be the same no matter what the angle.
> 
> Uh, what?  If you drill through a sphere along a diameter, the "angle" is
> of no consequence; it may not even have any meaning.  I don't see how this
> relates to jump-time.

	He didn't mean along a diameter. IIRC correctly, the idea was
"ballistic tunnels" between two points on the earth, not necessarily
along the diameter. Turned out that travel time was constant regardless
of the length of the tunnel. If it was a shallow tunnel, you wound up
moving more slowly. If it was a deep tunnel (hence longer distance
covered on the surface of the sphere), the vehicle moved more quickly.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 18:05 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)

In-Reply-To: <3315A78A.41C67EA6@camax.com>

<< > This makes a whole lot of sense to me and is a good extension of
> Glenn's explanation.
> 
> I think that I'll start using it, too.  Tell me, how do you come up
> with the check times?

Ummm... Fudge factor?  I haven't formalized it, and since my players
have had exactly one ship since, a 200dT Far Trader. I haven't done 
more than say, "check the jump grid every 4-5 hours".  If one of 
the gearheads decided to take the idea and run with it, I'd love it. >>

How about: no. man-hrs per week monitoring drive = sqrt(disp)

eg  100dt = 10hr/week (just under an hour and a half a day)
    200dt = 14hr/week (2hr/day)
   1000dt = 31hr/wk (4.5hr/day)
   5000dt = 70hr/wk (10hr/day - full time job for 1 engineer)
    10kdt = 100hr/wk (14hr/day - 2 engineers)
    50kdt = 223hr/wk (32hr/day - 4 engineers)
   100kdt = 316hr/wk (45hr/day - 6 engineers)
   500kdt = 707hr/wk (101hr/day - 13 engineers)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 97 13:09:40 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: The Starship Troopers Thread

woefully off topic, but hey...

I found an interesting site for info, official and non- on the web: Try

http://www.islandnet.com/~corona/films/details/startroop.html

according to the latest, there WILL be armour...go figger!

- -j

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:11:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Heretics Anonymous

>>>>You can change the *rules* as much as you want, and it's still Traveller.

Lord knows, the rules have changed a lot.

If you change *assumptions* upon which the Traveller Universe is based, 
and you ain't playin' Traveller, bub.<<<<

<sigh>

I see that I should have remained in lurker mode. = (

>>>>"Abandon all canon ye who enter here!", is inscribed over the door to our
lair. 

Let's see, we can add some more Attributes..dumping Social Standing for
sure, use lots of d10's and d20's, and make jumps in under a bloody week! 
Muuhahahaha, we are the anti-traveller!

Eris<<<<

=.)  I have a home!! 

\_/
DED, an Anti-Traveller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:51:09 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Space Opera - Sort of!

At 12:33 AM 3/1/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Since someone mentioned Space Opera in a recent chronology of early RPGs, I
>thought I'd mention that Ed Simbalist is currently working on a new SFRPG
>(it can't be called Space Opera #2 for obvious reasons) for Highlander
>Designs, the people who have just printed C&S3. It is supposed to be a 1998
>release -- as I get more details I'll let people know.

Phil, I keep hearing that Space Opera has been rereleased.  You might want
to look into this.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:51:11 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

At 09:51 AM 2/28/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
>>country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.
>
> Give me a quote, I don't know the lyrics as it is generally instrumentally
>played at the sports arenas.

..and the rockets' red glare,
  the bombs bursting in air
  gave proof, through the night
  that our flag was still there

Might I point out that since this was written during the bombardment of Ft.
McHenry by the Royal Navy, it actually shows the *British* fondness of
blowing things up.  Also, since they couldn't even drop the flagpole, it
shows a certain lack of competence.

When it comes to anthem lyrics though, you can't beat the French and their
images of dead invaders.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:43:41 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The Famous Week Long Jump (long)

> 	Starship Operators Handbook further stated (pg 65) that if a
> superficial mishap occured duuring jump that the ship would emerge at
> the correct destination system after a jump of 80 + (3d6 * 10) hours. 
> This formula gives a minimum jump duration of 110 hours ( 4 days & 14
> hours) a mean duration of 185 hours (7 days & 17 hours) and a maximum
> duration of 260 hours (10 days & 20 hours).  Since a superficail mishap
> during jump entry is not uncommon (especially among lesser skilled (i.e.
> merchant) crews, we need to realize that the "1 week" duration of jump
> is just a slightly oversimplified mean duration.

Yeah.  I'd play this like they had a problem dissipating (new 
term--thanks to a couple of TMLers) the energy from the jump grid.

Maybe thay had an uneven trouble spot.  It took extra time to 
dissipate the energy evenly--but they still arrived on time.


> 
> 	Furthermore DGP implies that starships have some control over the time
> length of their jumps.  In the MegaTraveller Journal #2 they said in
> response to a question about how naval forces jumping into a system can
> manage to launch an assault when their ships are going to be exiting
> jump many hours apart ( a good question) that " If double the jump
> preperation time is spent with all the affected ships in computer link
> via tight beam communicator, use the folloing formula instead  167 hours
> + (2d6 * 0.1 hour) yielding a result of 167.2 - 168.2 hours." The mean
> length of such a coordinated jump would be 167.6 hours.

Good show, Newman!  I have that issue, and now that you mention it, I 
rememer reading it.

This would lend creedence to the notion that there are, or could be, 
faster ways to dissipate the energy from the grid.

See, those sneady government types are already using a system.

You should also check out Project Farstar in one of the old Challenge 
magazines.  It talked about alternative, experimental jump drives 
that attempted to access the seventh and higher weave of jump space.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:55:09 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Famous Week Long Jump (long)

At 01:58 AM 2/28/97 -0900, you wrote:
>The notion that Jump will always take 1 week (168 hours) is an
>oversimplification.

>	Starship Operators Handbook further stated (pg 65) that if a
>superficial mishap occured duuring jump that the ship would emerge at
>the correct destination system after a jump of 80 + (3d6 * 10) hours. 
>This formula gives a minimum jump duration of 110 hours ( 4 days & 14
>hours) a mean duration of 185 hours (7 days & 17 hours) and a maximum
>duration of 260 hours (10 days & 20 hours).  Since a superficail mishap
>during jump entry is not uncommon (especially among lesser skilled (i.e.
>merchant) crews, we need to realize that the "1 week" duration of jump
>is just a slightly oversimplified mean duration.

I'd forgotten those numbers, have to remember to start enforcing that.  BTW,
if anybody spots a copy of SOH anywhere, please grab it, and I'll be more
than happy to cover the cost and shipping.
>
>	Furthermore DGP implies that starships have some control over the time
>length of their jumps.  In the MegaTraveller Journal #2 they said in
>response to a question about how naval forces jumping into a system can
>manage to launch an assault when their ships are going to be exiting
>jump many hours apart ( a good question) that " If double the jump
>preperation time is spent with all the affected ships in computer link
>via tight beam communicator, use the folloing formula instead  167 hours
>+ (2d6 * 0.1 hour) yielding a result of 167.2 - 168.2 hours." The mean
>length of such a coordinated jump would be 167.6 hours.
>
>	This statement (while perhaps no longer canonical) has some _very_
>interesting implications.  If a bunch of ships can reduce the mean
>variability of their jump by _60_ fold they must have some control over
>their entry into jump space and the corresponding length of their trip. 
>Therefore in my campaigns the following variant rule (which requires the
>use of the MT Task Duration System) is used:

I think you're misreading this slightly.  IMHO, the rule was supposed to
simulate the careful coorodination of a fleet to insure that their jump
profiles were nearly identical.  By this m,ethod, they can insure that most
of the fleet will arrive withing a short period.

For a single merchant ship, allowing the astrogator to try and narrow the
jump window down makes some sense, but I think it violates the spirit of the
rules to allow time shaving like this.

Just my Cr .02

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:24:14 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Blackmoor

>William is right about Blackmoor being the fifth book for the old
>white-box D&D set. However, he is wrong about Blackmoor never being
>published separately. Blackmoor was published by Judges' Guild (anyone
>remember their Traveller stuff?) in about 1979 or so under the title
>'First Fantasy Campaign'. T$R also brought out four Blackmoor modules in
>the early eighties.

Hmm, I think that we're both right: in that the campaign system itself
wasn't published (from an interview with Arneson did I glean this info.);
the campaign its self was.

>Also, in all the arguements about how many RPGS were published before
>Traveller, no-one has yet mentioned Chivalry & Sorcery (I'd have to check
>my copy, but 1975 I think).

(C) 1977 is waht's in my copy of C&S 1st ed.


William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:17:39 -0700
From: Marshall Bautista <bautista@micron.net>
Subject: Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Starship Troopers

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Not necessarily. She can't force them to change the plot. But the one
> thing they *can't* do is force an author to let them use his name if
> they've screwed it up too badly. If nothing else, the author can make
> them use a pen name. Harlan Ellison uses "Cordwainer Bird" (giving them
> the bird) for the turkeys they make out of his stuff. David Gerrold
> uses "Noah Ward" (No Award). The one Heinlein used for his stories that
> wound up going to the *really* awful pulps was "Lyle Monroe".
> 
> So she could likely get the name changed, but I suspect getting it
> totally removed is what she'd rather have happen.
> 

    I would suspect that as opposed to
 
		"Robert Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS"

    we may see 

	"STARSHIP TROOPERS (based on a novel by Robert Heinlein)"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 19:57:41 -0000
From: "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Query on Combat Comments Please TIA

So a character wearing flexible body armour is worse off
than one wearing no armour.

However has there  been discussion that to character wearing
no armour has all dice rolled and the highest three used for 
the damage.

Enemy with Big Game Rifle 6 dice (six sided)

Character A) Diplo armour rating 3
  Will be worse off if the 3dice >15

  If the damage rolled is in order 1,3,6,5,3,6 - then
  the damage would be 1+3+6+(3)=13

Character B) No armour

  If the damage rolled is in order 1,3,6,5,3,6 - then
  the damage would be 6+5+6+(0)=17

Should they know that they are in the middle of a firefight or the
target of Mr Trophy hunter, they could attempt a dex task to dive
for additional cover 

Dex Task - Bonus if not encumbered, tactics, athletics or recon
		Tactics - they know when to dive and roll
		Recon - they know where to roll to and be out of the 
			 line of fire
		Athletics - they can roll, and roll and roll.

	  - Penalty if encumbered, more than one hand full etc

If the dex task has been made the GM can roll dice randomly to
see how lucky the characters have been.

This roll would be based on how stressed, tired, bloodthirsty etc the
GM is at that moment.

They might get an extra point of armour of two, or a penalty on their
attackers attack chance.  Else they might have jumped into the local
carnivorous trapper.

****************************************************************
I understand that a 
- -5 penalty means that the damage dice are changed to d12's 
- -9 penalty means that a d6 and a d12 is rolled <G>
****************************************************************
- --
Dominic Reynolds
nz19@dial.pipex.com 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:33:13 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)

> How about: no. man-hrs per week monitoring drive = sqrt(disp)
> 
> eg  100dt = 10hr/week (just under an hour and a half a day)
>     200dt = 14hr/week (2hr/day)
>    1000dt = 31hr/wk (4.5hr/day)
>    5000dt = 70hr/wk (10hr/day - full time job for 1 engineer)
>     10kdt = 100hr/wk (14hr/day - 2 engineers)
>     50kdt = 223hr/wk (32hr/day - 4 engineers)
>    100kdt = 316hr/wk (45hr/day - 6 engineers)
>    500kdt = 707hr/wk (101hr/day - 13 engineers)

Works for me.  Good thought.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:28:56 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Honest Review of First Survey

Honest Review of First Survey.

I hate to say it, but this book as turned out exactly as I had 
feared, and it has little value to me.

Basically, you are paying 24 bucks for sector data and 9 incomplete
maps.

I will layer my criticisms below with constructive comments on how I
think FS could have been a much better supplement.

What you get:
	1)  Introduction on page 4;  short story/adventure campaign idea of 
	page 	5.

	2)  9 maps of the sectors in and around Core.  These maps are 
	incomplete, showing only the location of the world, if it has water 
	or not, and if a gas giant is included in the system.  Other 
	pertinent information is missing from the maps, and only a 
	sprinkling of even the planet names are included!

	3)  27 pages of incomplete sector information for players.  These 
	pages only have the physical data from a system listed.  Other data 
	like starport type, government, etc. are left blank.

	4)  68 pages of complete sector data for referees.  These pages fill 
	in the blanks in the data for the players.



Honest Review:

I lobbied hard against the inclusion of incomplete player maps here 
on the TML when the idea was first proposed.  I would have preferred 
complete maps for the referee and one blank map for refs to 
photocopy for their players.  That way, the ref could let the 
players know what information he wants them to, and it wouldn't have 
taken up one third of the book.

All you're paying for in this book is maps.  To me, that's a lot of 
context without any content.  I wanted to see a lot of information 
about these sectors of space.  I know that's supposed to be covered 
in MO, and although that book has a great deal of info in it (once 
I've had tome to  digest it, I'll post my thoughts), from flipping 
through the book, I can tell that the information in M0 is focussed 
on the entire M0 campaign.

That's how it is supposed to be.  Detailed sector information (I'm 
not talking about system stats here) should be in FS.  That's its 
place.

Those 27 pages used for incomplete player info could have been put to 
much better use as library data and comments about the people, 
places, and races within the sectors covered.

Marc states in his introduction that the book is based on the Atals 
of the Imperium.  I've got the Atlas, and I've got to say that FS is 
a much better supplement.  The Atlas gives you maps sans ANY sector 
information.  If you think I'm upset about FS, you should have seen 
me when I bought the Atlas.

If maps are what you need, then this is the supplement for you.  
Don't get me wrong.  I want maps for the Traveller setting.  In fact, 
I already have many of the ones included in FS.  But if I was a new 
Traveller player, I'd want a source to find the maps for the M0 
setting.  The problem is, I'd still want more than what I've gotten 
in FS.  

The big strength of Traveller is its history and gaming universe.  
All of the detailed information makes this place a fun, intriuging, 
exciting place to adventure in.  This strength is definitly lacking 
in FS.

As for the look of the book, it's OK.  There are no interior 
illustrations.  Foss did the picture on the front and back, and 
again, they look OK.  I don't really like Foss' work associated with 
Traveller, but I've got to admit that some of his stuff is growing on 
me.

I do like the way T4 looks from the outside, though.  All the black, 
the red border, the shining metal titles with red highlights, and the 
big, colorful picture on each of the supplement's covers make this 
game stand out well against its competitiors on the rack at the game 
store.

I think that both the Foss pieces on the front and back cover of FS 
is definitely Travelleresque--especially the one on the front.  The 
problem that I'm having with Foss is his big, huge, bulky, mammoth 
sized space ships he puts into his pieces.

I'm not agains big, and big has its place in the Traveller universe.  
But, Foss' particular big ships seem more applicable to the Star Wars 
universe.  The things just don't look functional enough to be in 
Traveller.  

The pic on the front is an example of what I'm talking about.  The 
ground work looks very Traveller, but you've got this huge, bulbus 
space ship hovering over the grav vehicles in the desert.

Again, I can accept it, but I also think it can be, and should be, 
done better.

I can't tell what the pic on the back is.  You've got giant mushrooms 
that look like they would be growing underwater.  There's a boat type 
water craft hitting one of them with its keel, but the boat looks 
like it should be a surfact water vehicle.  Then the mushroom looks 
like it is exploding as the boat hits it.

Just as I'm deciding if this is an under water picture or set on the 
surface, I notice a spaceship type ship flying just over the vessel 
trailing exhaust or thruster streaks and above it are dots of light 
that I take to be stars.

So now, I can't decide if this shot is meant to be on the bottom of 
the ocean, and the surface of it, or out in space.  Looking hard, I 
decide that the vessel is a water surface craft, and these mushrooms 
are growing up out of the ocean.  The mushrooms contain some sort of 
explosive gas, like hydrogen, which explains the explosion.  It's 
night time, so that's why we can see the stars, and it looks a little 
foggy on the open ocean, so the flying craft is trailing a vapor 
trail.

What I can't explain is why this ship/boat is travelling so fast (you 
should see the wave it is kicking up) next to these mushrooms if it 
knows how dangerous they are.  Heck, just their immense size should 
give the boat pilot alarm even if he didn't know that they explode.  

Anyway, I've got just a few more comments, and then I'll be through.

Just given the current content of the book, there are still a few 
items missing that should have been included.  One is the column 
headings in the players section.  These are included in the ref's 
section, and although it is not hard to figure out what column is 
what, the heading should have been there.

Also, I'm an old time Traveller player, so I already know what all of 
the columns mean in the ref's section.  My concern is that a new 
player purchasing this book might, and probably will, have a problem 
deciphering what all of the columns mean.  There has already been 
some questions on the TML as to what the PBG column is.  Given this, 
there should have been a couple of paragraphs somewhere in the book 
telling the reader how to read the info given.  Since sector data is 
92% of the book, this should have never left the proof readers before 
going to print without this information.



Summary:

All in all, you can tell that I am very disappointed with this book, 
and I think it could have been much more than it is.  Even if you 
just need the maps, $24 is a high price to pay.  If the price had 
been, say $10, then I'd be much more happy with the result.  Although 
it looks much better, the FS supplement gives you about the same 
gaming  material as those old Judges Guild supplements.  The 
difference is that the old JG books were printed on newsprint making 
them much cheaper.  You got what you paid for with their supplements 
(not to say that the JG supplements were great--not by any means.  
It's just that they were much cheaper, and the content you got was 
worth the price you paid).

There is one thing that I liked about FS.  Although it's a tiny 
thing, I very much liked the comments column of the sector 
data in the ref's section of the book.  There's not a lot of info 
here, but Marc did let us know where Ancient sites were, where 
certain homeworlds were, if a certain world was Droyne or Chirper, 
etc.  It's not a lot of content, but it is content, and I appreciated 
that.

I've saved the biggest question of all for last.  Looking at my 
Library Information, I see that the First Survey was published in 
420.

You can see my question here.  Why was FS published for M0 anyway?  
I agree that maps of the milieu need to be published, but why call it 
FS?  First Survey should have been published for M400, not M0.

This information might have been better placed in the M0 sourcebook 
or some other supplement titiled differently.

And that's the way I see it.

Kenneth.  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:47:53 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: 2300AD/Traveller2300

Eris asked about 2300 incarnations...

2300AD is Traveller 2300 Revision. No major changes other than dropping the
Traveller name, and slightly more detail in the background.

Star Cruiser is a decent system, limited, but able to be tweaked extensively.

If you can find it, the _Colonial Atlas_ is very useful, as is the
_Earth/Cybertech Sourcebook_.

The Vehicle Guide and the Equipment guide are what should have been in the
box to begin with, but are very good anyway.

_Kafer Dawn_ and _Aurora_ were both well written adventure/supplement books.

I like 2300's system mechanics. Combat is deadly. Characters are fun to
generate. Only Problem is no rules for running alien PC's AFAIK.

And, NO, they are NOT for grabs (well, I can spare a copy or two of kafer dawn)

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:43:32 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Traveller--first SF RPG?

I forgot who it was that started the first RPG thread and was asking 
questions like, "What was the first SF RPG" and  "What does TSR stand 
for". 

I replied that I thought Traveller was the first SF RPG, but then I 
got nailed when people started pulling out these gaming books citing 
copyright dates well before Traveller's.

And there wasn't just one citation either.  There were several SF 
RPG's that were supposed to be published before our beloved 
Traveller.

I had always thought that Traveller was the first, but when those 
posts hit my mailbox, I said, "OK, I've learned something new."

Then, I'm looking through my copy of M0 and almost drop my glass as I 
read the introduction.  In the second sentence, Lester Smith writes 
that Traveller is the "world's first science-fiction role-playing 
game".

So, now I'm confused.

Hey, what else is new, right?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:14:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:51:46 +0100
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> 
> >The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
> >country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.
> 
>  Give me a quote, I don't know the lyrics as it is generally instrumentally
> played at the sports arenas.

...
And the rockets' red glare
The bombs bursting in air
Gave proof through the night
That our flag was still there.
...

It was written by Francis Scott Key, an American prisoner aboard a British
vessel during the shelling of Fort McHenry (I believe), part of the War of
1812.  All night, Key watched anxiously by the light of artillery fire to
see if the flag atop the fort would be struck, signalling surrender.  The
colors stayed up, and at dawn Key was so moved that he wrote the song
which became our National Anthem, using an old English drinking song as
the melody.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 02:45:06 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Blackmoor

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, William F. Hostman wrote:
> was Book 5 for D&D, I have a copy.
> The Blackmoor campaign system was never published separately.

Actually it was :-)  It's called 'The First Fantasy Campaign' and was
written by Dave Arneson himself and published by Judges Guild in 1977.
Very interesting book.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1008
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 1 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1009



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: various digest #1007
External grapples
Re: Jump lengths
Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:
First Survey
Re: The Famous Week Long Jump  9long)
Re: Duck Soup
happy fun merc
Re: micro survey, Space Opera
Re: ID4 and Americans
happy fun merc
RE: Duck Soup 
1st impression reviews
Re: Minor Problem with Otherwise Excellent M0 and FS Books
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Old foggies quiz
Re: Minor Problem with Otherwise Excellent M0 and FS Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:52:07 -0600 (CST)
From: nrunner@ix.netcom.com (Archie T.)
Subject: Re: various digest #1007

    HUH! I bought a resell of 'starship operators manual' and a full 
20% of jump drive fuel tonnage is expended JUST to see of the grid 
works! This is canon!! Is means its used, and the lanth grid may have a 
hole in it.....you might repair it, but youve got to reskim your fuel.

    item: the fission rockets from the 50's is also called 'NERVA': it 
uses H2 heated and expelled for thrust. Also, a fission (electric) 
plant WAS tested aboard a B-36, with a nuke symbol on its tail: a 
picture can be found in the mag. 'Air Combat.' Im thinking of recording 
the article in .txt format: new york to berlin and back, and at ~50,000 
tons, tl6!

    Item: Ba-140 has a half life of 12.7 days; it decays to lanthanum. 
Lanthanum 137 has a half life of 60,000 years. After 10 halflives, any 
radioactive material is gone, period. If you put, say, 1.15 times the 
amount of lanthanum needed to jump into a hull, the grid is good for 
(60,000 yrs)*((.5)*(2^(1.15))*(.8)
(assuming the grid goes bad if it only has .8x the amount of lanth it 
needs.)

archie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:14:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: External grapples

I'm coming increasingly to believe that external grapples have no place in
QSDS, and a questionable one in SSDS.  Here's my reasoning:

An external grapple holds the carried ship *entirely outside* the hull of
the carrying ship.  Let's take an 800 ton vessel carrying a 50 ton vessel
on an external grapple.  The grapple volume itself is taken as part of the
volume of the 800 ton vessel (15 tons, on a streamlined hull); this is the
*only* volume cost associated with a grapple.

However, when the carried vessel is attached, the resulting vessel is no
longer 800 tons, but *850*...the 800 ton original hull, plus 50 tons of
carried craft.  Remember, the 50 tons of carried craft are *not*
subtracted from available volume on the carrying craft; therefore, they
*must* be additional.  This increased volume should then be taken into
account in calculating jump drive size, maneuver drive size, fuel, and so
forth -- but it's not.  Also, even if we fix this by including the 50 dt
craft in the 800 ton vessel's volume costs, what we then really have is a
750 dt craft, with (possibly) a 50 dt craft clipped onto it...and then the
hull cost, armor, life support, and other calcs from QSDS are thrown
totally out of whack.

So, in short:  External grapples are a can of worms you really need
something of FFS-level complexity to handle properly.  For that matter,
docking rings are in the same category, if part of the carried vessel
extends outside the hole (i.e., volume cost to carrying ship is less than
carried craft volume).

We really really ought to have some formal judgement on this point by the
THUDDD/NAH powers-that-be before the Merc Cruiser competition closes, as
it has a *big* effect on this particular design.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:44:25 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Jump lengths

Anders Backman wrote:

> Time taken: 6/Jn per parsec which makes all maxjumps take 6 days. The
> problem with this system is that microjumps takes almost no fuel and no
> time (bye bye nonjumpcapable ships) so I had to invent the 1 hour or
> something charge up time for jumpgrid.

> I stopped using it after a few weeks as the feel for the game changed a lot
> but some heretics out there might like it.

As one of the more vocal heretics, let me say I don't have a big problem
with all jumps taking about a week...as I've explained in other posts. 
OTOH, I don't have a problem with other folks playing the game however
they want either.  I've run games where ships maneuvered and even fought
battles in hyper/jumpspace, but it still took about a week for most
ships to travelling between systems.

I guess what makes me a heretic is that I don't want to make everyone
follow "the one true way" of Traveller.  If you want to play in a
particular universe that conforms to what is generally called "canon"
fine, but don't "have a cow" if I (or others) do things a different
way.  It bugs me when people jump on folks who express a contrary
opinion by saying, "That's not canon! That's not the Traveller way!"

Anders this isn't aimed at you. It's just something I wanted to get off
my chest.

I suppose what I'm really saying is "Viva la` difference!"

Eris,
  the heretic

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:25:01 -0800
From: "Wes Payne" <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:

Thus spake "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>:

> And the question to those who know by now is:
> Have the locations and names changed back to the DGP-data or do we 
> have entirely new maps?
> What has cnow, only the UWP to reflect a situation 1000 years prior 
> to 1100 or did they thwow everything overboard!
                      ^^^^^
No, they just thwew them woughly to the fwoor.

Wewease Bwian!

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 13:29:39 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: First Survey

Amongst a great deal of off-topic rattlings, I noticed a reference to 
First Survey, and a question why the book was named that instead of 
"Survey of the Third Imperium around Year Zero". 
The simple answer is that this is the first survey of the Imperium as it 
existed early in its history. Later (c.4th or 5th centuries), the 
Imperial Grand Survey ranged over a much wider area. When the Grand 
Survey was repeated a few centuries later, the two were distinguished by 
the terms First and Second surveys. 
By this time, the original Survey of the core regions was long forgotten. 

Eleven hundred years is a lot of water under the bridge. 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...

"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:30:58 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: The Famous Week Long Jump  9long)

> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:43:41 +0000
> From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> Subject: Re: The Famous Week Long Jump (long)
> 
> >       Starship Operators Handbook further stated (pg 65) that if a
> > superficial mishap occured duuring jump that the ship would emerge at
> > the correct destination system after a jump of 80 + (3d6 * 10) hours.
> > This formula gives a minimum jump duration of 110 hours ( 4 days & 14
> > hours) a mean duration of 185 hours (7 days & 17 hours) and a maximum
> > duration of 260 hours (10 days & 20 hours).  Since a superficial mishap
> > during jump entry is not uncommon (especially among lesser skilled (i.e.
> > merchant) crews, we need to realize that the "1 week" duration of jump
> > is just a slightly oversimplified mean duration.
> 
> Yeah.  I'd play this like they had a problem dissipating (new
> term--thanks to a couple of TMLers) the energy from the jump grid.
> 
> Maybe thay had an uneven trouble spot.  It took extra time to
> dissipate the energy evenly--but they still arrived on time.

	I'm not sure if I by your energy dissipation cooling of the jump grid
theory as the determinant of the length of the jump (and I'd rather not
get into it with you) - but - whatever rationalization we use to explain
jump duration - this rule clearly implies that starships DO have some
contol over jump duration.
> 
> >
> >       Furthermore DGP implies that starships have some control over the time
> > length of their jumps.  In the MegaTraveller Journal #2 they said in
> > response to a question about how naval forces jumping into a system can
> > manage to launch an assault when their ships are going to be exiting
> > jump many hours apart ( a good question) that " If double the jump
> > preperation time is spent with all the affected ships in computer link
> > via tight beam communicator, use the folloing formula instead  167 hours
> > + (2d6 * 0.1 hour) yielding a result of 167.2 - 168.2 hours." The mean
> > length of such a coordinated jump would be 167.6 hours.
> 
> Good show, Newman!  I have that issue, and now that you mention it, I
> rememer reading it.
> 
> This would lend creedence to the notion that there are, or could be,
> faster ways to dissipate the energy from the grid.
> 
> See, those sneady government types are already using a system.
> 
> You should also check out Project Farstar in one of the old Challenge
> magazines.  It talked about alternative, experimental jump drives
> that attempted to access the seventh and higher weave of jump space.

	I have this article & I thought it was pretty good, I reccomend it to
others interested in jump space.  It appeared in Challenge #33 pg 33-37
and was written by Marcus Roland.  However most of the variant drives in
this article, if allowed to work, have the potential to alter canon
drastically.  The variant I propose, which will only save a few percent
of the time off the jump, will not.
> 
> Kenneth.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:55:09 -0800
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: The Famous Week Long Jump (long)
[Snip of the jump length durtation formulas]

> I'd forgotten those numbers, have to remember to start enforcing that. 

> >       Furthermore DGP implies that starships have some control over the time
> >length of their jumps.  In the MegaTraveller Journal #2 they said in
> >response to a question about how naval forces jumping into a system can
> >manage to launch an assault when their ships are going to be exiting
> >jump many hours apart ( a good question) that " If double the jump
> >preperation time is spent with all the affected ships in computer link
> >via tight beam communicator, use the folloing formula instead  167 hours
> >+ (2d6 * 0.1 hour) yielding a result of 167.2 - 168.2 hours." The mean
> >length of such a coordinated jump would be 167.6 hours.
> >
> >       This statement (while perhaps no longer canonical) has some _very_
> >interesting implications.  If a bunch of ships can reduce the mean
> >variability of their jump by _60_ fold they must have some control over
> >their entry into jump space and the corresponding length of their trip.
> >Therefore in my campaigns the following variant rule (which requires the
> >use of the MT Task Duration System) is used:
> 
> I think you're misreading this slightly.  IMHO, the rule was supposed to
> simulate the careful coorodination of a fleet to insure that their jump
> profiles were nearly identical.  By this method, they can insure that most
> of the fleet will arrive withing a short period.

	Yes but as written the rule will not only insure that they arrive
within a short period of time but allowas them to reduce the mean
variability of the duration of the jump 60 fold.  This statement implies
to me that the ships are controlling the point of their entry into jump
space & therefore the time duration of their journey to the other side
of the jump space & exit into the regular universe.

	If all they meant to do was insure that the fleet would all come out at
the same time they would have published a rule going something like
this:
	
	If all ships spend twice the normal time preparing for jump in tight
beam communication with each other the fleet may roll once for the mean
jump duration of the jump using the normal (124 + (2d6 *6)hours) to
represent the mean length of the jump.  Individual ships will dejump
 (2d6 - 7) * 0.1 hours away from this time.

	But this _is_not_ what they said (although maybe its what they should
have said) and the rule as given clearly implies some kind of minor
control over the length of the jump.  I have chosen to expand this
theory with a very minor variation that seems to be
1) a logical continuation of this theory
2) cool
and 3) too small a variation to threaten canon
> 
> For a single merchant ship, allowing the astrogator to try and narrow the
> jump window down makes some sense, but I think it violates the spirit of the
> rules to allow time shaving like this.

	Yes maybe it is contrary to the "spirit" of the overall rules but this
rule is the most specific one we have and what it says to me is that
ships do have some control over the length of the jump.  I rationalize
this as control over their entry vector to jump space.

> +-------------------------------------------------+
> |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |

	Besides it just seems to me that since canonical statements indicate
that even at the Ancients level of technology (TL 20 - 35) a conrolled
misjump is impossible that this line of research is the only wa to go to
speed up jump.  If you cannot build a controlled Jump 8 ship but you can
manipulate your entry into jump space so that your TL 20 Jump 6 ship
will always take 110 hours per jump(4 days and 14 hours the theoretical
minimum length of a regular jump assuming a superficial mishap during
jump entry & the minimum roll on the duration table) you are saving
about the same length of time on a long trip.

	It is only logical to presupose that if a jump is possible with a given
duaration all you need to do is figure out how to insure that every jump
takes this long.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:45:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Duck Soup

>First though, I have to finish work on my
>Traveller version of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"....

Harold, I now know the true meaning of fear.
dsf.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:57:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: happy fun merc

Mercenary Cruiser

Tons: 1000	Volume: 14,000			Cost: 903.221 (677.41)
Crew: 25	High/Mid Pass: 0		Low: 0
Cargo: 39.2	Std Controls: mil (bridge)	TL: 12

Size 9				Jump Drive (3/1)
3 Maneuver (Thruster, 756)
1xMil Laser (+4) 1/5-3-3-0	Power Plant (3 2x750Mw)
1xMeson Gun (+4) 2/3-2-0-0	Fuel
2/10/12 MissileBarbette
1 Minimal HangerFacility (50ton Craft)	A10 P4 J10 Sensors ( Stealth/Cloak)
1 Minimal HangerFacility (30ton Craft)
10 Armor	18 Structure


Crew: 5 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 9 Gunners, 0 Screens
2 AuxCraft Crew, 30 Troops/Marines, 4 Command, 0 Stewards, 1 Medical.

Notes: It can carry only 1 50 ton modular cutter and it relies on this for
refueling, the other module would usually be a troop transport/cargo module.
In place of the second modular cutter a Meson gun was placed to help provide
better fire support for the ground troops. In addition the bridge provides
one workstation for the troop commander.

The large Stateroom is for the captain/owner. The rest of the crew gets small
staterooms and the troops are relegated to bunks, except for three of the
command staff who get small staterooms. The number of troops can be increased
if some of the troops are crosstrained for the small craft and for gunnery
(especially the meson gun and missile batteries, allowing two more squads
if necessary).

A sickbay for up to four patients is provided, plus 1 emergency low berth.


Sidenotes: Not to bad for a first attempt at QSDSv1.5 I guess. But I'm not
really happy with the design, even increasing the tonnage to 1000, it's hard
to design what I'd really like to see. Hangers take up way to much room
for one.


Worksheet:
		USD	Volume	crew	power	cost	area	MaxG	Armor	Structure	Length
Needle S	9	947.8	0	273	 43.1	2828.0	3	10	18		90
Jump-3			 40	1.3		168.0	 186.7
Jump Fuel		300
Thrust-plate		 54	1.5	756	189.0	 152
Tl-12 Avionics		  3.4		  2.5	 18.2	    .3
Sensors A10 P4 J10	  1.2	0.8	 85.2	 62.5	  44.6					(20)
 (small mil)
Commo (tl-12 adv)		0.8	 21.5	  2.0	 203.0
Mil Missile Launcher x2	 12.0		   .4	  0.2	  40.0	10 missiles
MFD (tl 12) x3		  4.6	3.0	  9.3	 76.8	   6.3	USD Bonus +4, control 12
missiles
Mil Laser Bat (tl12-6)	 20.3		163.1	 34.2	  62.1	(+4) 1/5-3-3-0
Meson Gun-12		125	5.0	 27.8	147.0	  10.2	(+4) 2/3-2-0-0
Sickbay x2		  8		  1.6	 10.0		4 beds
Power Plant x2		 53.6	1.8	1500	150.0
  Fuel			 16
Minimal Hanger x1	100			   .4	 126
Minimal Hanger x1	 60			   .3
workstations x22	 11.5			   .026
Bridge			  9
Bunk x27		 27			   .135
small stateroom x29	 58			  1.16
Large stateroom x1	  4			   .1
E-low x1		  2			   .1

Left Cargo		 38.2

Engineering Crew	1.8+1.5+1.3=4.6=5
Electronics crew	.8+.8=1.6=2
maneuver crew		2
gunnery crew		9
small craft crew	2
Troops			30
command crew		4
medical			1

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:56:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: micro survey, Space Opera

So Space Opera did exist, I was worried. So much of the Eighties has been
lost to me, not that I miss it that much...
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 22:00:18 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

Craig Berry writes:

>It was written by Francis Scott Key, an American prisoner aboard a British
>vessel during the shelling of Fort McHenry (I believe), part of the War of
>1812.

   Yes indeed it was Fort McHenry during the War of 1812.  The British
fleet was attempting to get to Baltimore, where presumably they would
have performed a "hit and run" raid like the one they had days earlier
on Washington, D.C., which left the Presidential residence a burned out
shell (the building was later restored and several coats of white wash
used to cover the scorch marks, thus the White House), and several other
important buildings in ruins, including the Capitol.  President Madison
and the rest of the government had evacuated the city before the British
troops arrived.

   It has been said that the raid on Washington was in retaliation for
the American burning of York (Toronto), the capital of Lower Canada at
the time (I'm sure our Canadian friends will correct me if I'm wrong). 
One would suppose that the British were also still sore about being
kicked out of Lake Erie, and wanted to make sure the Americans knew who
was in charge of the Atlantic, should they get any ideas.

>  All night, Key watched anxiously by the light of artillery fire to
>see if the flag atop the fort would be struck, signalling surrender.  The
>colors stayed up, and at dawn Key was so moved that he wrote the song
>which became our National Anthem, using an old English drinking song as
>the melody.

   Key penned the words (as a poem), but he didn't come up with the
melody.  Credit goes to Judge J. H. Nicholson, Key's brother-in-law. 
The melody is indeed from an old English drinking song called "Anacreon
in Heaven".  Because the melody was not written expressly for the words
of the poem, The National Anthem is a rather difficult song to sing
well, especially for untrained voices.  This is why it is so easy to
make a jackass of yourself in public performing it in front of a live
audience.  Best performance of it I've ever seen: Whitney Houston's
before the Super Bowl in 1991.  Most creative: Jimi Hendricks at
Woodstock in 1969.  Worst: My own.  I am currently living under a
voluntarily lifetime ban from singing, though I have been seen reciting
the words of Key's poem to music at baseball games.

Regards,

War, One of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse (formerly known as
Harold)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:57:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: happy fun merc

Mercenary Cruiser

Tons: 2000	Volume: 28,000			Cost: 1638.656 (1228.992)
Crew: 39	High/Mid Pass: 0		Low: 5
Cargo: 108.3	Std Controls: mil (bridge)	TL: 12

Size 9				Jump Drive (3/1)
3 Maneuver (Thruster, 1512)
2xMil Laser (+4) 1/5-3-3-0	Power Plant (3 3000Mw)
1xMeson Gun (+4) 2/3-2-0-0	Fuel  632.1 (800 Scoop  50 Refine)
4/20/24 MissileBarbette
2 Minimal HangerFacility (50ton Craft)	A16 P5 J16 Sensors ( Stealth/Cloak)
2 Minimal HangerFacility (30ton Craft)
30 Armor	25 Structure


Crew: 7 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 9 Gunners, 0 Screens
4 AuxCraft Crew, 39 Troops/Marines, 6 Command, 0 Stewards, 1 Medical.

Notes: It can carry 2 50 ton modular cutters and 4 modules. For Ground
Support both missile barbettes and a Meson gun are provided.

The large Stateroom is for the captain/owner and the commander of the ground.
troops. The rest of the personnel get small staterooms (there is one extra
stateroom). The number of troops can be increased if some of the troops are
crosstrained for the small craft and for gunnery (especially the meson gun
and
missile batteries, allowing two more squads if necessary).

Thr troops include 3 additional command personnel and room for 2 of them
are provided on the bridge along with a workstation.

A sickbay for up to eight patients is provided, plus 5 low berths.



Worksheet:
		USD	Volume	crew	power	cost	area	MaxG	Armor	Structure	Length
Slab A		9	1855.6		 543.1	 95.1	6548.0	4	30	25
Jump-3			  80	1.8		336.0	 373.3
Jump Fuel		 600
Thrust-plate		 108	2.1	1512	378.0	 303
Tl-12 Avionics mil x2	  6.8		   5	 36.4	    .6
Sensors A16 P5 J16	  4.5	1.2	 201.2	 92.9	 262
 (med mil)
Commo (tl-12 adv) x2		1.6	  43	  4.0	 406
Mil Missile Launcher x4	 24.0		    .8	  0.4	  80.0	20 missiles, barbette
MFD (tl 12) x6		  9.2	6.0	  18.6	153.6	  12.6	USD Bonus +4, control 24
missiles
Mil Laser Bat(tl12-6)x2	 40.6	2.0	 326.2	 68.4	 124.2	(+4) 1/5-3-3-0
Meson Gun-12		125	5.0	  27.8	147.0	  10.2	(+4) 2/3-2-0-0
Nuclear Damper x2	 12	2.0	  30	  4.0	  40	USD 2
Engineering Shop	  6		   0.6	  1.0
Sickbay x4		 16		   3.2	 20.0		8 beds
Minimal Hanger x2	200			   .8	 252
Minimal Hanger x2	 60			   .6
Fuel Plant (50dtons)	120		  25.2	   .7
Power Plant		 71.4	1.7	2000.0	200.0
  Fuel			 21.4
Power Plant		 35.7	1.2	1000.0	100.0
  Fuel			 10.7
workstations x36	 18			   .036
Bridge			  9
small stateroom x77	154		    .385  1.16
Large stateroom x2	  8		    .002   .2
Low Berth x5		  5		    .005   .25
Cargo			108.3

Engineering Crew	7
Electronics crew	4
maneuver crew		2
gunnery crew		15
small craft crew	4
Troops			39
command crew		6
medical			1

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 22:36:52 -0500 (EST)
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Subject: RE: Duck Soup 

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21: 45:56 EST
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 22:36:51 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@brahms.udel.edu>

: 
: >First though, I have to finish work on my
: >Traveller version of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"....
: 
: Harold, I now know the true meaning of fear.
: dsf.

Cleon in a bustierre and pumps?

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 19:50:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: 1st impression reviews

     Okay, I just got the two new books this afternoon, and I've skimmed 
through both and read the first chapters of "Milieu 0".  What follows is
my chart reviewing the entire line thus far (for perspective) to be
followed by some specific comments about the new books.

Book           Content Design Useful   Cost          Overall
Traveller	B+	C-	A	A-(20-25)	B
Starships	D	D-	C-	D (5-8)		D
Central Supply	A	B-	A-	C (10-12)	B
Aliens Archive	B	B-	B	C+(10-14)	B-
JTAS 25		B+	B+	B-	A (4-6)		B+
Milieu 0	A	B-	A	B-(12-16)	B+
First Survey	B-	B-	B-	D-(5-10)	C-

Explanation of the terms: Content is the words of the book, plain and
simple.  Design is the physical appearance: editing, artwork, layout.
Usefulness is how much I think I'll actually use what's inside.  Cost is
how the price of the book compares to what I think it should have cost
(which is listed in paranthesis).  Overall is the average of the four.

Now for some more directed comments.  "Milieu 0" looks very good so far,
contentwise.  Of the chapters I've read in detail (the first two), in the
first I appreciated the very biased and jingoistic history, as well as the
"rough draft" rebuttal (including the irony (assuming no foul play) that
he suggests Fusion+ should have been used to improve infrastructure, only
to be killed in a traffic accident!)  The second chapter is also very
good, and completely dispels any comparison between the economic machine
that is the Imperium and Star Trek's Federation.  I really liked all the
adventure hooks, but think they should have been set apart somehow from
the "in-character" text they accompanied (but this is more of a design
concern).  The biggest disappointment so far is, as someone else has
already mentioned, that the written history just plain DOES NOT match the
Core Sector map.  Unless I come across some Major surprises in future
chapters, I can't see any problems with this book's content at all.
     The layout-design has the same problems as the rest of the line thus
far, but I remain optimistic that when the new design team takes charge
this will improve, so I won't dwell on it.  One comment, though, is the
Chris Foss drawings: I liked the paintings in the first book, but these
drawings seem to have the same drawbacks (no "Traveller feel") without the
up-side (impressive paintings).  Several of them look like they might have
made good paintings, but as they are they just look rushed and sloppy.
     It's still overpriced, but since the content is so rich, I don't mind
as much.  Overall, as my grades above reflect, I think this is probably
the best T4 product yet, and I wish to congratulate all the writers for a
job very well done.

     The news about "First Survey" is far less happy.  I'm not afraid to
say that I think Marc Miller made a very poor decision to follow the
wishes of this list, as it has led to something resembling the worst of
both worlds. This book has the least usable content in it of anything
since "Starships."  The layout is poor: columns of pale Courier font are
both hard to read and take up much more space than, for instance, the font
that DGP used to use.  At very least, a small enough font should have been
used to allow two columns in the Referee Data, and to make the Player data
easier to follow (those columns tend to run together).  In addition, the
data itself is severely lacking.  There are far too few "full data" worlds
presented, and even some of those are off in the middle of nowhere; I'd
much prefer to have seen more logic applied here.  I notice that although
the homeworlds of lots of minor races are included, this doesn't seem to
include any of those from "Aliens Archive" (oops).
     From a design standpoint, in addition to my above complaint about the
wasted space from using Courier-type font, I also notice that, based upon
the original design prospectus, we're missing approx. 36 sectors!  Sure,
as presented there's no room for them, but if the font were shrunk to
allow each sector's description to take approx. 2 pp, then the 9 sectors
presented would take ~27pp, 1/4 of the 112pp book, with plenty of room for
the other promised sectors (or at least most of them).  What becomes of
the Ref Data then?  Well, quite frankly, we don't need it.  I was on the
losing side of this debate earlier, so I won't dwell too long here, but
from looking at all these sector descriptions, in 99% of the cases does
anyone honestly find this (obviously randomly determined) data to be
really useful, or anything we couldn't come up with on our own?  If the
number of "full data" worlds had been expanded to a reasonable number,
all of those worlds had been generated by hand to make sense (and match
the background presented in M0), we'd been given all the promised sectors,
and a short section of Library data, including the info from the
"Comments" column of the ref data, I'd have been happy.
     As it is, this book is basically a collection of mostly-blank map
guidelines, some world data that in most cases I fully intend to ignore,
a one-page scenario idea that, while interesting, doesn't carry through
with the actual content of the book, all presented in a reader-unfriendly 
and space-wasting format.  A reasonable price for this would be somewhere
in the neighborhood of $5-10, but $23 for this amount of useful info is
ridiculous.  I'm afraid that this is the worst T4 product since
"Starships," and that I would urge people NOT to buy it (unless you can
find it for really cheap).

     Oh well, I suppose one out of two isn't too terribly bad of an
average, and if "Emperor's Arsenal" lives up to the high standard set by
"Central Supply Catalog," then we should still be in pretty good shape.

If you've read this far, thanks for your indulgence,

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:06:55 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Minor Problem with Otherwise Excellent M0 and FS Books

In a message dated 97-02-27 20:30:47 EST, you write:

> 
>  >presented very clearly and concisely, but for some reason the text is
very 
> hard
>  >to read.  Big gobs of tabular data presented in a very fine font makes
for
>  >difficult reading, especially in non-bright light.  I might suggest using
a
>  
>  This will probably make it more difficult for the scanner, too, so I'll
have 
> to hire 
>  someone to enter into the database.  Sigh.
>  
>  --Glenn

I am looking at posting at least a few sectors.

Marc

(ie. which ones?).

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:06:30 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

In a message dated 97-02-28 05:00:50 EST, you write:

> >The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
>  >country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.
>  
What about the Marseillaise (?) and its line about watering our fields with
the blood of our enemies.

Marc Miller
   

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:06:57 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

In a message dated 97-02-27 20:30:07 EST, you write:

> > > What was GDW noted for before traveller?
>  > 
>  >   Hmmm. Imperium?

Obscure historical board wargames, like Chaco, Coral Sea, the Europa Series,
Torgau, Crimea, the Russo-Japanese War, and

a run of SF boardgames, including Bloodtree Rebellion, Bouble Star,
Triplanetary, and Belter.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:06:47 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Minor Problem with Otherwise Excellent M0 and FS Books

In a message dated 97-02-27 20:30:47 EST, you write:

> 
>  >presented very clearly and concisely, but for some reason the text is
very 
> hard
>  >to read.  Big gobs of tabular data presented in a very fine font makes
for
>  >difficult reading, especially in non-bright light.  I might suggest using
a
>  
>  This will probably make it more difficult for the scanner, too, so I'll
have 
> to hire 
>  someone to enter into the database.  Sigh.
>  
>  --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1009
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 1 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1010



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:
Re: Traveller--first SF RPG?
Re: Query on Combat Comments Please TIA
Re: The Famous Week Long Jump
Re: Jump Space
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Traveller: First SFRPG?
Re: Traveller--first SF RPG?
Re: 2300AD/Traveller2300
Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)
Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:
Re: All Hail Freedonia!
Re: External grapples
Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:
Re: 2300AD/Traveller2300
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:
"Tacponders"
Re: Query on Combat Comments Please TIA
Re: Milieu 0 and First Survey growth maps!
Re: Roswell Incident (actually culture)
Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)
Beyond the pylons
Iceberg Lettuce

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:06:24 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:

In a message dated 97-02-28 05:02:34 EST, you write:

> 
>  And the question to those who know by now is:
>  Have the locations and names changed back to the DGP-data or do we 
>  have entirely new maps?
>  What has cnow, only the UWP to reflect a situation 1000 years prior 
>  to 1100 or did they thwow everything overboard!
>  
>  Ah, my local store just told me, M0 has arrived, now i only have to 
>  wait 3 week till i can go home and finally behold the perfect product 
>  in all it's glory! 
>  Still, an answer would be appreciated!
>  Just my 2 EuroCents,

The UWPs for 1005 for size, atmos, and hydro were retained. The pop was
recalculated, and new gov and law were generated based on the new pop. Then
TL was calculated, taking into account the old (1105 TL). If the name has a
period (.) after it, it is newly generated (in Vilani). If there is no
period, the name is the same as from 1105.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 17:44:40 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller--first SF RPG?

On 02/28/97 at 02:43 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> I replied that I thought Traveller was the first SF RPG, but then I  got
> nailed when people started pulling out these gaming books citing 
> copyright dates well before Traveller's.

> Then, I'm looking through my copy of M0 and almost drop my glass as I 
> read the introduction.  In the second sentence, Lester Smith writes  that
> Traveller is the "world's first science-fiction role-playing  game".

> So, now I'm confused.

Let me clear up your confusion, Traveller was the first *good* SFRPG to be
published, and is the SFRPG that everything else is compared to, but it
wasn't the first to be published.  That was probably the Flying Buffalo
abomination, "Spacebunnies and Starnookie"...wasn't *that* its name? ;->

Now back to *important* stuff...how's KB 2.0 coming?  Did your idea pan
out?  Did you get my post in answer to your questions?

Eris,
  still beating that dead horse!
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 17:31:53 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Query on Combat Comments Please TIA

On 02/28/97 at 07:57 PM,  "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com> said:

> So a character wearing flexible body armour is worse off
> than one wearing no armour.

I don't think so. Why do you say that?

> However has there  been discussion that to character wearing no armour
> has all dice rolled and the highest three used for  the damage.

Does the book say the highest three are used for damage?  I don't recall
seeing that in T4 anywhere, but that's the way I do it too. OTOH, armor
absorbs damage *first* so it absorbs the highest rolls.

> Enemy with Big Game Rifle 6 dice (six sided)

> Character A) Diplo armour rating 3
>   Will be worse off if the 3dice >15

>   If the damage rolled is in order 1,3,6,5,3,6 - then
>   the damage would be 1+3+6+(3)=13

What's this "in order" stuff?  Don't you just roll all 6 dice?  I would. 
What I'd do is have the armor absorb all it could from the highest dice
down and then allocate the rest to the character.

(6,6,5) absorbed for (1+1+1) points giving,  3+3+1+(1+1+1) = 10

The hits would be spread over the 3 Physical Attributes..assuming this is a
second hit, or applied to a single Attribute asuming it was the first hit.

> Character B) No armour

>   If the damage rolled is in order 1,3,6,5,3,6 - then
>   the damage would be 6+5+6+(0)=17

This I agree with.  With no armor the highest 3 dice all hit the character.

I'd say 10 is a LOT better than 17!  Again, I don't see where flex makes
the damage worse...in any situation.

Actually, I think the method the book has in mind is a little
different from this, though.  As I read it you'd take the 6d and subtract 3
BEFORE you roll, just rolling 3 dice, ie.

6d - 3armor = (1+1+1)+d6+d6+d6 

On first hit all points are applied to a single Attribute.
On subsequent hits each of the d6's and 1's are applied to different
Attributes, well obviously there's some doubling up because you only have 3
Attributes to work with and you have 6 hit groups to apply.

Having written all this, let me just say...I don't much care for the
system.  Either version.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:32:32 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: The Famous Week Long Jump

Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> writes:

>        Furthermore DGP implies that starships have some control over the time
>length of their jumps.  In the MegaTraveller Journal #2 they said in
>response to a question about how naval forces jumping into a system can
>manage to launch an assault when their ships are going to be exiting
>jump many hours apart (a good question) that " If double the jump
>preperation time is spent with all the affected ships in computer link
>via tight beam communicator, use the folloing formula instead  167 hours
>+ (2d6 * 0.1 hour) yielding a result of 167.2 - 168.2 hours." The mean
>length of such a coordinated jump would be 167.6 hours.

Hmm. My ruling was that fleets DO all exit jump many hours apart from each
other. Therefore an attacking fleet always meets at a prearranged staging
point (usually near a gas giant) in the target system about a day for
everyone to arrive before attacking. I felt this was a better rule because
it makes fleets have to be more cautious and secretive instead of just
launching blitzkreigs. Also, this makes it feasible to put single ships on
patrol watching for attacks; they can get the hell away from a fleet before
they are overwhelmed.

I remember one campaign I was a player in where we were guarding a gas
giant and a Chrysanthemum-class destroyer jumped into sensor range. The
pilot floored it and we just barely got away!

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:32:27 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Jump Space

Eris Reddoch (eris@pen.net) writes:

>The jump interface isn't HOT, it's just filled with degenerate matter
>*leaking* into hyperspace.  In fact hyperspace is dead cold and sucks heat
>from the jump bubble, explaining why ship's don't have to worry all that
>much about radiators. <g>

>See, the "jump fuel" is used to force open a rift in space between normal
>and Jump (or hyperspace).  The reason it takes 10% of ship volume
>regardless of jump distance is because the "fuel" is simply opening a rift
>large enough to allow the ship and a surrounding bubble of normal space to
>enter hyperspace.

>During the next week this "fuel", dissipates slowly into hyperspace
>thinning the surrounding shell.  After about 1 week (and it varies because
>more or less "fuel"..of varying purity is injected, the "fuel" dissipates
>at slightly different rates, and the local conditions of hyperspace are
>never really known) the shell has thinned to the point where the ship POPS
>out of hyperspace and back into normal space.

Hey, this is good! It also explains why ships smaller than 100 dtons can't
jump; it's the same reason black holes below a certain size don't exist
(naturally, that is). Since the shell will dissipate at its surface, which
increases with the square of the size, while the volume increases with the
cube of the size, below certain point (100 dtons, obviously) it will
dissipate faster than it can be created. Uh, oh; if the limit really is
close to 100 dtons then scout ships must be just a few kg of hydrogen away
from going poof each jump...

But if this is the case, why can't we then put more than 10% of the ship's
volume of fuel in to make a bigger bubble that takes longer to dissipate so
we can go farther?

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 01:33:52 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

On 03/01/97 at 12:06 AM,  CardSharks@aol.com said:

> > >The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
> >  >country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.
  
> What about the Marseillaise (?) and its line about watering our fields
> with the blood of our enemies.

Marc, there's no doubt that the French are as blood-thursty a lot as we
are! As are the English, German, Spanish, Danish...and even our Swedish
friends. Did I miss anybody? :->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 02:48:29 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Re: Traveller: First SFRPG?

>I had always thought that Traveller was the first, but when those
>posts hit my mailbox, I said, "OK, I've learned something new."
>
>Then, I'm looking through my copy of M0 and almost drop my glass as I
>read the introduction.  In the second sentence, Lester Smith writes
>that Traveller is the "world's first science-fiction role-playing
>game".
>
>So, now I'm confused.

Well, Ken, it isn't unknown for people who make reference to historical
facts and get those facts wrong :) Also, STARFARING was a fairly obscure
game (I had never even heard of it until I read HEROIC WORLDS). Also, it is
entirely possible that Traveller may have been in development before any of
these. What I was referring to was the date of U.S. publication.
        Another more cynical viewpoint-and one which I strongly doubt- is
that claiming to be the first Science Fiction RPG gives you a measure of
prestige.
Prestige can sometimes sell books. But I think it's more likely that Lester
ma have been laboring under the historical misapprehension that many of us,
myself included, did for a long time.
        And one thing is certain. Traveller may not have been the first
science-fiction RPG by some technicality or another, but it was the FOREMOST
one for many years and is still more of an influence on all that came after
it than any of the other games mentioned.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 01:47:53 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller--first SF RPG?

> Now back to *important* stuff...how's KB 2.0 coming?  Did your idea pan
> out?  Did you get my post in answer to your questions?


No, I didn't get your answers.  I got Marc's and a few others, and I 
was surprised that I didn't get any more than that.  If you've still 
got the post, then resend the information.

As far as KBv2.0 goes, I'm still testing.  I did some preliminary 
tests, but I haven't had a lot of time to work on it these last few 
days.

The preliminary test showed that the system needed some tweaking, so 
I need to do that and test some more.

I'm not throwing out a system with holes in it--not after that debate 
we just went through.  

I'll keep you posted.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 01:15:40 -0800
From: KevinC <kevinc@cnetech.com>
Subject: Re: 2300AD/Traveller2300

2300AD provided significantly more background for the 2300 universe, as
well as more detail behind the aliens.

There are several web pages by 2300 fans on the net.

Yahoo! has a section listing some:
http://www.yahoo.com/Recreation/Games/Role_Playing_Games/Titles/2300AD/

You can also find others listed under the links page on my own 2300
site( URL on last line of my signature).

There is also a mailing list( info on how to sign up is also on my
site).  Traffic on the list has been rather slow recently, but if you
are a fan of the game, please come join us.

KevinC
kevinc@cnetech.com
Pentapod's World     http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 09:47:39 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)

Craig are you sure we were incompetent at shooting, or just very accurate,
after all the flag pole wasn,t rebelling against us, it never tried to kill
us, so why kill it. now the COLONIAL REBELS on the other hand....


As for our fondness of blowing things up, i'm afraid we are amatures
compared to our friends across the pond, to site a few
references...Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Iraq...... need i
add more.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:57:41 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:

- -> 
- -> The UWPs for 1005 for size, atmos, and hydro were retained. The pop was
- -> recalculated, and new gov and law were generated based on the new pop. Then
- -> TL was calculated, taking into account the old (1105 TL). If the name has a
- -> period (.) after it, it is newly generated (in Vilani). If there is no
- -> period, the name is the same as from 1105.
Thank you very much, that was the answer i wanted to hear! Now i can 
spread the word that my campaign is on! Hooooo, Siiillveeeerrrrrr!
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 18:41:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: All Hail Freedonia!

In mail you write:

> On 02/27/97 at 07:04 PM,  danger@visi.com said:
>
>> Rocky and Bullwinkle are, as everyone knows, from Frostbite Falls,
>> Minnesota, just north of Ely and about 150 miles north of Lake Wobegon,
>> gateway to Central Minnesota.  Boris and Natasha are from Pottsylvania,
>> as I recall.
>
> Yeah, and Bullwinkle matriculated at Whatsamatta U!  ;-> While there
> he excelled at what sport?

Football.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 00:06:14 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: External grapples

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:
> However, when the carried vessel is attached, the resulting vessel
> is no longer 800 tons, but *850*...the 800 ton original hull, plus
> 50 tons of carried craft.  Remember, the 50 tons of carried craft
> are *not* subtracted from available volume on the carrying craft;
> therefore, they *must* be additional.  

 I always subract space for the craft as well as the grapple. As you
mention, this throws your hull calculations out of whack (unless you're
attaching 100 tons of craft), but I think it's a small price to pay for
simplicity in this case.

> We really really ought to have some formal judgement on this point
> by the THUDDD/NAH powers-that-be before the Merc Cruiser
> competition closes, as it has a *big* effect on this particular
> design.

 Good idea. Tiger? Can we have a ruling, _fast_?

- --
Idiot/Savant			idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
Betray your friends; Crush your enemies; 
Control the world; Drink some coffee

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 12:10:46 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:

- -> Thus spake "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>:
- -> > to 1100 or did they thwow everything overboard!
- ->                       ^^^^^
- -> No, they just thwew them woughly to the fwoor.
- -> 
- -> Wewease Bwian!
O.K., so i hit the wrong key, so sue me! 
(And yes, I am a Monty Python Groupie, too) Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 12:26:35 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: 2300AD/Traveller2300

- -> There are several web pages by 2300 fans on the net.
- -> 
- -> Yahoo! has a section listing some:
- -> http://www.yahoo.com/Recreation/Games/Role_Playing_Games/Titles/2300AD/
Well, shouldn't we then also try to have them create a section 
listing for Traveller? There are enough pages out there to warrant a 
seperate listing and surely we can't have it that a dead system gets 
more notice than our favorite: TRAVELLER!
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 12:23:25 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

- -> > > >The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
- -> > >  >country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.
- ->   
- -> > What about the Marseillaise (?) and its line about watering our fields
- -> > with the blood of our enemies.
- -> 
- -> Marc, there's no doubt that the French are as blood-thursty a lot as we
- -> are! As are the English, German, Spanish, Danish...and even our Swedish
- -> friends. Did I miss anybody? :->
Why, we Germans are only out for Unity, Right and Freedom and that 
these are the goals we should all strive for for the better of our 
land... I can see nothing bloodthirsty in that...! 

Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 05:26:46 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:

Wes Payne wrote:
> 
> Thus spake "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>:
> 
> > And the question to those who know by now is:
> > Have the locations and names changed back to the DGP-data or do we
> > have entirely new maps?
> > What has cnow, only the UWP to reflect a situation 1000 years prior
> > to 1100 or did they thwow everything overboard!
>                       ^^^^^
> No, they just thwew them woughly to the fwoor.
> 
> Wewease Bwian!

ROFL! (It's twue, it's twue!)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 97 07:00:26 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: "Tacponders"

Greetings All:

I'm working my way through Sherwood Smith/Dave Trowbridge's Exordium 
Series. I'm up to Book Two: Ruler of Naught (as I've said before, great 
stuff, especially for those who are running Traveller!).

One nifty little gadet used in Book Two is the "tacponder". Like the 
Traveller Universe, the Exordium's navy has a limit on the speed of 
communications: the fastest ship is the fastest way for communications to 
travel (actually there's one way around that...involving some technology 
of a lost race called the Ur, sort of like the Ancients...but that's 
another story). In order to help with communications and the transmission 
of news/orders, the Navy has placed "tacponders" in various systems. A 
ship jumps in, signals the tacponder and gets news and orders. At the 
same time, the ship can update the tacponder with its log, recent 
encounters, news, etc.

This might be useful for T4, especially as we currently don't (if I 
remember my history correctly) have an X-Boat network and we have an 
expanding Imperium: Scouts could drop off the tacponder system by system 
as they go outwards, naval ships could then utilize and expand the 
network as they incorporate (ahem) systems into the Imperium.

The Exordium books are fairly similar to Traveller and definately 
Traveller in feel. I especially like the depiction of some of the alien 
races, the nobles, Rifters (pirates) and the cruisers and battleships 
(most of which have linear accelerators for those gosh darn relatavistic 
rocks!).



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to 
vote."

Ambassador Kosh
BABYLON FIVE

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 07:53:33 -0600
From: Hugh Johnson <ratling@csrlink.net>
Subject: Re: Query on Combat Comments Please TIA

At 05:31 PM 2/28/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On 02/28/97 at 07:57 PM,  "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com> said:
>
>> So a character wearing flexible body armour is worse off
>> than one wearing no armour.
>
>I don't think so. Why do you say that?
>
>> However has there  been discussion that to character wearing no armour
>> has all dice rolled and the highest three used for  the damage.
>
>Does the book say the highest three are used for damage?  I don't recall
>seeing that in T4 anywhere, but that's the way I do it too. OTOH, armor
>absorbs damage *first* so it absorbs the highest rolls.
>
>> Enemy with Big Game Rifle 6 dice (six sided)
>
>> Character A) Diplo armour rating 3
>>   Will be worse off if the 3dice >15
>
>>   If the damage rolled is in order 1,3,6,5,3,6 - then
>>   the damage would be 1+3+6+(3)=13
>
>What's this "in order" stuff?  Don't you just roll all 6 dice?  I would. 
>What I'd do is have the armor absorb all it could from the highest dice
>down and then allocate the rest to the character.
>
>(6,6,5) absorbed for (1+1+1) points giving,  3+3+1+(1+1+1) = 10

	According to my interpretation of the 3D maximum damage rule I wouldn't
count the three ones that are absorbed by armor in the above example.  The
only damage inflicted is the three full damage dice.  Whether you use the
three highest dice or the three lowest dice for the damage inflicted
depends on how lethal you want combat to be.  I use the three highest dice.
 If a round has sufficient velocity and armor penetration capability lesser
armor isn't going to slow the shot down sufficiently to prevent it from
doing massive damage.  I count the lower dice rolls as the loss in velocity
as it penetrates the armor.  If you use the three lowest rolls for damage
and the 3D max. rule what would be the difference between a big game
hunting rifle and a PGMP?  You could just as easily do three one point hits
with both weapons.  Using the three highest rolls gives you a better chance
to do more damage with three sixes if you roll more dice.  I prefer my
players to think of violence as the last resort, but that's just my
delusional thiking  of course. 
 


Hugh Johnson    ratling@csrlink.net   <:8}}}---

"Anything that happens, happens.  Anything that, in happening, causes
something else to happen, causes something else to happen.  Anything that,
in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again.  It doesn't
necessarily do it in chronological order, though."      -- Douglas Adams,
Mostly Harmless

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 97 14:25 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 and First Survey growth maps!

In-Reply-To: <A0D1C384A57@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>

<< Well, wouldn't it be possible to make these pages now, that both are 
out and post them to a web page or publish them in an independent 
zine or supplement? >>

How about an animation showing the expansion (and contraction) of the 
various empires of known space? Oh well, just a thought.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 97 14:25 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Roswell Incident (actually culture)

In-Reply-To: <3315243C.51FD@siscom.net>

>    As for the President, he was a decorated pilot from the Gulf War. 
> Since this was supposed to be a kind of Last Stand, you would expect
> that *anyone* who could fly an airplane straight would be handed the key
> to a brand new Hornet.  Besides, it's not like other heads of state
> haven't lead their armies into battle before.

ISTR that Churchill wanted to go along on D-Day - the mil/gov had a hell of a 
job changing his mind...

> special effects are in a word, tremendous.  Propaganda?  You're
> assumption is that Hollywood films are written and produced with the
> idea of turning everyone into Americans.  If only the pseudo fine arts
> crowd in Hollywood was bright enough to conceive of such a conspiracy!  

"What, ya mean there are people outside America?"

> P.S.  This discussion does raise an interesting point though.  What do
> Vilani see when they watch Terran/Solomani entertainment programs? 
> Would they laugh at the same things?  How much of humor (love, etc.) is
> universal and how much of it is cultural?

A thought that occurred to me recently is, are there Imperial equivalents to 
Terran culture?

- - America/Hollywood: completely dominates culturally, everyone's heard of 
Coca-Cola, Elvis, Micky Mouse, etc. (Does every city have a branch of Burger 
Emperor/Sylean Fried Avian/etc?)

- - Britain: everyone knows their films & TV are the best, but nobody watches 
them! (Do Solomani actors always play villains?)

- - France: government desperately trying to keep their language/culture pure 
(though the people would rather watch Star Trek (in English)). (Does Vland ban 
people speaking Galanglic?)

- - 'Bollywood': *huge* market, 100s of films every year, but almost unknown 
outside India.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 97 14:25 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Glenn's theory (was A dice by any other name)

In-Reply-To: <3315E534.2781E494@camax.com>

<< In fact, some "misjumps" are situations where
there is some abnormality in the de-energization (cooling) of the 
jump grid. >>

...and others could be caused by irregular energisation. By George, I 
think we've got it!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 09:40:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Beyond the pylons

>> No, they just thwew them woughly to the fwoor.
>> 
>> Wewease Bwian!
>
>ROFL! (It's twue, it's twue!)
You people are twisted. And I love you for it.
dsf

so cowboy, whats your name...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:12:25 -0500 (EST)
From: SirBStard@aol.com
Subject: Iceberg Lettuce

In a message dated 97-02-26 15:53:42 EST, Doug Berry writes:

<< Once again stellar type seems to have been randomly assigned without
regard
 for the world.  the worst case I've noticed so far is an Agricultural world
 orbiting a M9d.  Gives new meaning to the term "iceberg lettuce."
  >>

   Iceberg, heck this is ICEFIELD lettuce. Maybe the have one heck of a large
hydroponics facility.

Keith Randolph

 Also known as Sir BStard@aol.com

 "When Cerebus' fur gets wet, it takes a strong stomach to stay in the
vicinity" - Cerebus the Aardvark  by David Sim

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1010
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 1 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1011



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Heretics Anonymous
Rocky Horror (was: Re: Duck Soup)
even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)
THUDDD Diktat
task resolution redux (was... somethign or other)
Small Craft Facilities
RE: ID4 and Americans
Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:
Re: Minor Problem with Otherwise Excellent M0 and FS Books
Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)
(Fwd) Re: ID4 and Americans
(Fwd) Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: [T97#1003] FASA
Imagination
[none]
Re: task resolution redux (was... somethign or other)
Re: Heretics Anonymous
Re: even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:12:26 -0500 (EST)
From: SirBStard@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)

In a message dated 97-03-01 05:25:33 EST, Colin Hollands writes:

<< Craig are you sure we were incompetent at shooting, or just very accurate,
 after all the flag pole wasn,t rebelling against us, it never tried to kill
 us, so why kill it. now the COLONIAL REBELS on the other hand....
 
 
 As for our fondness of blowing things up, i'm afraid we are amatures
 compared to our friends across the pond, to site a few
 references...Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Iraq...... need i
 add more.>>

 "You can get more with a kind word and a gun then you can get with just a
kind word." - Al Capone


Keith Randolph

 Also known as Sir BStard@aol.com

 "When Cerebus' fur gets wet, it takes a strong stomach to stay in the
vicinity" - Cerebus the Aardvark  by David Sim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:12:06 -0500 (EST)
From: SirBStard@aol.com
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

In a message dated 97-03-01 07:13:38 EST, Volker A. Greimann writes:

<< 
 -> Marc, there's no doubt that the French are as blood-thursty a lot as we
 -> are! As are the English, German, Spanish, Danish...and even our Swedish
 -> friends. Did I miss anybody? :->
 Why, we Germans are only out for Unity, Right and Freedom and that 
 these are the goals we should all strive for for the better of our 
 land... I can see nothing bloodthirsty in that...! 
  >>

      Maybe right now but that can change. See the recent events with the L.
Ron Hubbard set and their little faith popular with some American actors.
They have been having some trouble in Bavaria I hear.
    So lets cut the garbage. No nation is purely for "Unity, Right and
Freedom", and everyone of them has done some killing. It's a governmental
tradition among Humanity to locate outsiders, non-conformists and those of
the wrong color and put a serious dent in their freedom if not heart beats.
     Only in the last century that has changed somewhat. Otherwise none of us
would be here to talk about it because according to some folk RPGs are the
work of Satan. And you know what happens to those who traffic with the devil
- -- they get burned at the stake. :o

 Wink Wink - Nudge Nudge, say no more :)

Keith Randolph

 Also known as Sir BStard@aol.com

 "When Cerebus' fur gets wet, it takes a strong stomach to stay in the
vicinity" - Cerebus the Aardvark  by David Sim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 97 10:32:37 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Heretics Anonymous

In a message dated 2/28/97 1:44 PM, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>I guess what makes me a heretic is that I don't want to make everyone
>follow "the one true way" of Traveller.  If you want to play in a
>particular universe that conforms to what is generally called "canon"
>fine, but don't "have a cow" if I (or others) do things a different
>way.  It bugs me when people jump on folks who express a contrary
>opinion by saying, "That's not canon! That's not the Traveller way!"

and... In a message dated 2/28/97 12:11 PM, Dedly@aol.com wrote in 
response to me:

>>You can change the *rules* as much as you want, and it's still Traveller.
>
>Lord knows, the rules have changed a lot.
>
>>If you change *assumptions* upon which the Traveller Universe is based, 
>>and you ain't playin' Traveller, bub.
>
><sigh>
>
>I see that I should have remained in lurker mode. = (

Egad! It appears that I may have come across as "having a cow" and 
jumping on folks. :-)

Dedly, I apologize if my tone offended you. I have the deepest respect 
for Eris the Heretic and all other heretics. My message was not meant to 
marginalize those who play alternate sci-fi universes using Traveller 
rules. It was only meant to point out what I feel is a very basic 
assumption about the [published/canon] Traveller Universe.

I gotta check the safety on this thing... <glenn fiddles with his TOZT-7 
Backpack Napalm Unit> B->

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 09:23:41 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Rocky Horror (was: Re: Duck Soup)

At 02:31 AM 2/28/97 -0500, Harold wrote:

>   I've threaten to do a parody adventure set in the TNE Reformation
>Coalition based on this film.  First though, I have to finish work on my
>Traveller version of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"....

Been there.  I ran a version of the RHPS for Call of Cthulthu a few years
back.  Since everybody in the game was also on our local cast, we all knew
our cues.

Still one of the best nights of gaming I've ever had.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 10:33:53 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)

At 10:00 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Harold D. Hale wrote:
>>It was written by Francis Scott Key, an American prisoner aboard a British
>>vessel during the shelling of Fort McHenry (I believe), part of the War of
>>1812.
>
>   Yes indeed it was Fort McHenry during the War of 1812.  The British
>fleet was attempting to get to Baltimore, where presumably they would
>have performed a "hit and run" raid like the one they had days earlier
>on Washington, D.C. ...
>
>   It has been said that the raid on Washington was in retaliation for
>the American burning of York (Toronto), the capital of Lower Canada at
>the time (I'm sure our Canadian friends will correct me if I'm wrong). 

One other interesting note:  according to the education my kids received
when we lived in Toronto, the *British* won the war of 1812.  This is, as
you might imagine, in some contrast to the education I received growing up
in Virginia.

I found it interesting too that when I was learning about early US history,
none of us ever questioned what happened to all the loyalists -- Tories --
after the Colonies decided to become independent.  Moving a bit north to
*Tor*onto, clarified things for me.  It's very interesting after all this
time, seeing the cultures that have evolved in ostensibly similar places
like Virginia, Ontario, Oregon, and California -- very similar, and yet
with *very* telling differences that seem attributable to who settled there
when, why they dominated, and what their attitudes were. 

Okay, there's gotta be a Traveller tie-in here someplace.  Maybe a fiercely
independent world made up of the descendants of those who settled it while
fleeing from "civilization" and an earlier war (like Oregon)?  Hmmm.  Could
add some depth to a campaign.


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 12:40:31 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: THUDDD Diktat

1) Ok... given the confusion over the grapples vs. docking rings question,
the deadline for submissions is extended by a week, to Sunday 9 March 1997.
Depending on the result or not of discussions, those of you who have
submitted designs may of course resubmit them.

2) Since I'm not really clear on the source of the confusion, and don't
have time to go read the rules right now as I am _HELLISHLY_ busy, can you
guys make succint statements of the problem and post them for discussion.
I'm tempted not to make a ruling, and simply let voters' ratings reflect
the opinion on the list as to the non/brokenness of the designs.  Comments
are invited.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 10:52:22 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: task resolution redux (was... somethign or other)

At 01:47 AM 3/1/97 +0000, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>> Now back to *important* stuff...how's KB 2.0 coming?  Did your idea pan
>> out?  Did you get my post in answer to your questions?
>
>No, I didn't get your answers.  I got Marc's and a few others, and I 
>was surprised that I didn't get any more than that.  If you've still 
>got the post, then resend the information.

Along those lines, did anyone see the suggestion I posted for reconciling
skills and attributes?  I haven't play-tested it, and it _is_ a good-sized
numerical change, but I think having skill numbers range from 1-15 rather
than 1-6 is a good idea that solves the bulk of the task resolution
problems.  And I think withe the small table I posted, the conversion (both
mental and numerical) is pretty easy, adds some good granularity to
skill-learning, and can be done quickly.

Did anyone see this, or was it just so bad everyone politely ignored it?


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 14:24:57 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Small Craft Facilities

	Given all of the confusion about grapples, docking rings, etc., 
I've taken it upon myself to reproduce the appopriate section from FF&S.  
Knock yourselves out.


Description			Volume	Mass	MCr	MW
Internal Hangar (Minimal)	x2	.2	.0002	-
Internal Hangar (Spacious)	x4	.2	.0002	-
Docking Ring			x1	0	.0002	-
Launch Tube			x25	.5	.00015	.01
External Grapple (USL)		x.1	1	.001
External Grapple (SL)		x.3	1	.002
External Grapple (AF)		x.5	1	.003

Volume:  Multiply the craft or vehicle volume by the value shown to 
determine the facility volume.
Mass:  The mass in tonnes per cubic meter ofinstallation.
MCr:  The price, in MCr, per cubic meter of installation
Surface Area:  All of the facilities require surface area except for the 
hangars (which require launch ports, below).  The launch tube reqruies 
area in m^2 equal to 2*L^2 where L equals the basic length as taken from 
the Hull Size table, unmodified by hull form, of the largest craft that 
will use the tube.
	Grapples require area equal to the square of the final length of 
the craft carried by the grapple.

MW:  Power requirement per cubic meter of installation.

Hangar Space:  Spacious hangars allow all repair and maintenance tasks to 
be conducted at normal difficulty levels.  Minimal hangars increase the 
difficulty level of all such tasks by one level.  Docking rings allow no 
maintenance or repair.

External Grapply:  Types listed are for unstreamlined (USL), streamlined 
(SL), and airframe (AF) hulls of the carrying ship, not the carried 
craft.  Note that the volume of craft carried in exteranl grapples is not 
subtracted from the volume of the carrying ship, although the volume of 
the grapple is.  Remember that the volume of the carrying ship plus all 
externally carried craft is used when calculating the required amount of 
maneuver drive and jump drive.
	By selecting the type of grapple that corresponds to its hull 
streamlining, the vessel may carry exteranlly mounted craft without 
compromising its streamlining configuration, so long as the exteranlly 
mounted craft also meets that configuration.  If the grapple or craft's 
configuration is lower that that of the overall hull, the ship is limited 
to the lower configuration if it is carrying the craft.  If the craft is 
detached, the hull's configuration may be used.


Access Ports
Description		Area	MCr
Launch Port		L^2	.001
Large Cargo Hatch	20m^2	.02
Small Cargo Hatch	12m^2	.012

Area:  Hull surface area required.

L^2:	The square of the craft's basic length as taken from the Hull 
Size table, unmodified by hull form.

MCr:  Price in MCr per square meter of launch port, or per each cargo hatch

Launch Port:  At least one launch port is required if craft or vehicles 
are carried.  More launch ports allow craft ot be launched more rapidly.

Cargo Hatches:  All craft requrie at least one large cargo hatch per 350 
m^3 (25 tons) of cargo capacity.  Vessels with under 100m^3 of cargo 
space can get by with a single small cargo hatch.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 23:30:30 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: ID4 and Americans

>   It has been said that the raid on Washington was in retaliation for
>the American burning of York (Toronto), the capital of Lower Canada at
>the time (I'm sure our Canadian friends will correct me if I'm wrong). 

	Well, you asked for it...

	York (aka Toronto, aka the asshole of Canada) was the capitol of Upper (not lower) Canada.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

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`
end

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 13:51:44 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

Dominic Reynolds recently discovered another bug in the T4 combat 
system.  We've been hacking this out in private e-mail, and I've come 
up with a simple fix that I want to throw to the TML for comment.

If anybody can find the problem in a rule, or a fix to that rule, it 
is  you guys.  So, here goes.



What Dominic said:

He said, basically, that the blunt trauma rule is broken, and after 
hearing his explanation, I agree.

How?  Take this example.

Jack's not wearing any armor.  He gets hit by a big game rilfe, which 
does 6D damage.  Due to the maximum damage rule, he only takes 3 D6 
damage.

For comparison, let's say that Jack is wearing Diplo armor (flexible 
AV3).  He gets hit by the big game rifle.  He takes 3 D6 +3 damage.

Why the +3 damage?  It is because of the blunt trauma rule that says 
a character takes 1 point of damage for every damage die negated by 
flexible armor.

As Dominic has said, therein lies the problem.  Under T4 as written, 
a character with no armor takes (or could take--depending on how the 
dice are rolled) less damage than a character with armor.



My thoughts and fix:

I think that the simplest way to fix this is to have a stricter 
interpretation of the max damage rule with regard to blunt trauma 
damage.

The max damage rule states that a character cannot take more than 3 
D6 of damage (certain things break this rule--explosions, automatic 
fire, shotguns).  This should include blunt trauma damage.

So, if damage to a character is less than 3 D6, you add in the blunt 
trauma.  If damage is 3 D6, you do not add in the blunt trauma.

Ken's fix for blunt trauma:
	
	The max damage rule cannot be broken by blunt trauma.



Checking our above examples with my fix, Jack would take 3 D6 damage 
after being hit by a big game rifle in both cases--wearing Diplo and 
not wearing armor.

Now, if Jack was wearing the Diplo and he was hit by an ACR, 
he'd take 1 D6 +3 damage.  The +3 is due to blunt trauma.

If Jack was hit by the ACR without armor, he'd take 3 D6 
damage.



Comments on this fix?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 12:10:16 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: M0 and FS sector data: One Question, however:

At 05:26 AM 3/1/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Wes Payne wrote:

>> No, they just thwew them woughly to the fwoor.
>> 
>> Wewease Bwian!
>
>ROFL! (It's twue, it's twue!)

According to the Traveller Drinking Game, everybody has to take a drink now.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 12:10:12 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Minor Problem with Otherwise Excellent M0 and FS Books

At 12:06 AM 3/1/97 -0500, Marc spake thusly:

>I am looking at posting at least a few sectors.

>(ie. which ones?).

How about Core, with *corrected* information?  (i.e. the size of the
Imperium in 40 indicated, the major enemy worlds having the right stats, etc..)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:25:52 -0500 (EST)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)

In a message dated 3/1/97 10:25:33 AM, you wrote:

>As for our fondness of blowing things up, i'm afraid we are amatures
>compared to our friends across the pond, to site a few
>references...Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Iraq...... need i
>add more.

	Ahh yes a new american matto 
	If it absoluty posoitivlty has to be blown up overnight:).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 14:49:10 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: ID4 and Americans

On  1 Mar 97 at 12:23, Volker A. Greimann spewed:

> Why, we Germans are only
> out for Unity, Right and Freedom and that these are the goals we
> should all strive for for the better of our land... I can see
> nothing bloodthirsty in that...! 

Hmm.  Guess those events in 1914-18 and 1939-45 were just giant peace
marches, then, eh???  :-)

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Official USENet Product Infoperson  Imperium Games
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 14:49:10 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: ID4 and Americans

On 28 Feb 97 at 22:00, Harold D. Hale spewed:

<A large well, written chunk of history about the US National Anthem
DELETED>

> front of a live audience.  Best performance of it I've ever seen:
> Whitney Houston's before the Super Bowl in 1991.  Most creative:

She cheated though.  Upon further review, it was definitely Memorex.

> Jimi Hendricks at Woodstock in 1969.  Worst: My own.  I am currently

Worst (Honorable Mention):  Roseanne Barr, San Diego Padres game,
circa 1992.

A bit more useless history.  Although the National Anthem was written
during the War of 1812, it did not achieve that distinction officially
until 1931.  The real kickstart to the drive to make it the National
Anthem was baseball...

The Star Spangled Banner was sung at a sporting event for the first
time in the 1918 World Series in Boston (a wartime series, it might be
noted), when it was played during the 7th inning stretch (not before
the game).  The crowd responded so positively that the ritual was
performed at every other game of the series, and eventually spread to
other ballparks.  Eventually, public enthusiasm led to an act of
Congress making it the National Anthem during the Hoover
administration.

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Official USENet Product Infoperson  Imperium Games
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 17:06:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1003] FASA

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> writes...

T::>FASA stands for "Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration," by the
 ::>way.  Now, *three* bonus points for the first person who can tell me the
 ::>origin of the name "Freedonia."

 Deliberate misspelling of "Fredonia", a town in extreme western
 New York State, home of the Fredonia Jazz Band, a jazz ensemble
 from the State University of New York, College at Fredonia.  I
 believe that the company got its start on that same campus -
 it's the kind of quirky thing that college students would do.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  There's no place in the world like NYC - not even NYC!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 09:41:37 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Imagination

The irrelevance/imagination ratio of this list is creeping towards 
critical level. For the sake of those of us that have to read this list 
online, <please, please, please>, can we have a little less of the 
American anthem, 'me too' complaints about FS and M0, and most of all, 
<please> let's have a break from circular arguments about the task system 
and discussion of what was the first f#$##@g RPG!!! 

I realise that some things get people excited/angry; I admit that 
receiving scores of barely relevant and repetitive messages is one of my 
pet peeves. 

Please have a thought for the rest of the list? Spare a kilobyte for the 
poor? 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...

"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:58:28 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: [none]

>>The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
>>country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.
>
> Give me a quote, I don't know the lyrics as it is generally instrumentally
>played at the sports arenas.
>

From the verse of the US National Anthem
>>And the rocket's red glare
>>the bombs bursting in air
>>gave proof through the night
>>that our flag was still there

Hmm... Every Baseball, Hockey and Basketball game I've been too has a singer
do it with taped accompanyment. Footbal games are another matter.

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 17:02:09 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: task resolution redux (was... somethign or other)

On 03/01/97 at 10:52 AM,  Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> said:

> Along those lines, did anyone see the suggestion I posted for reconciling
> skills and attributes?  

> Did anyone see this, or was it just so bad everyone politely ignored it?

Mike, I didn't see it.  I've been having ISP troubles and have missed a few
posts here and there, so it might have hit the list and I missed it. 

I'd like to see your idea. Could you repost it to the list, or send it
directly to me?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 16:40:50 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Heretics Anonymous

On 03/01/97 at 10:32 AM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca> said:

> Egad! It appears that I may have come across as "having a cow" 

I bet *that* was painful! ;-p

> Dedly, I apologize if my tone offended you. I have the deepest respect 
> for Eris the Heretic and all other heretics.

Eeek!  Glenn *respects* us, don't you know *real* heretics don't want no
"stenking" respect! ;->  

Seriously, I'm not upset with you Glenn.  I respect your right to conform
just as much as I respect everyone elses right to rebel.

> It was only meant to point out what I feel is a very basic 
> assumption about the [published/canon] Traveller Universe.

Know what?  I agree with you about the "very basic assumptions" in the
Traveller Universe..if you stray too far from them the feel of the game can
easily become much less Travellerisk.  For that reason, I usually stay very
close to the basic assumptions, and when I do stray I take the changes
*very* seriously.  

OTHO,I'm much less attached to the political and social history that has
built up over the last 20 years.  That's where *I'm* a real heretic.  Well,
that and a number of techological/pseudo-science things.  Then there's my
different CharGen process, and task system, and my changes to the combat
systems, and....<G> Maybe I really am..

Eris,
  the Heretic


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 16:59:09 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)

On 03/01/97 at 10:33 AM,  Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> said:

> >   It has been said that the raid on Washington was in retaliation for
> >the American burning of York (Toronto), the capital of Lower Canada at
> >the time (I'm sure our Canadian friends will correct me if I'm wrong). 

> One other interesting note:  according to the education my kids received
> when we lived in Toronto, the *British* won the war of 1812.  This is, as
> you might imagine, in some contrast to the education I received growing
> up in Virginia.

Ah, that explains why the US, Canada, and Britian remained rather friendly
even after the war..everybody thought their side won.  <g>

And everybody was right, the US remained independent, trade resumed between
the US and Europe, the British cut back on support for the Indian Nations
in our south and midwest, and Canada stayed a British Colony..just what
everybody wanted.  Everybody except the Indian Nations, that is.

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1011
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 1 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1012



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
Ken's Questions
Quality
Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
First Survey: should've been...
Re: task resolution redux (was... somethign or other)
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)
Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
The D66 Task System (was 2D TS)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 17:49:26 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

On 03/01/97 at 01:51 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> He said, basically, that the blunt trauma rule is broken, and after 
> hearing his explanation, I agree.

> How?  Take this example.

> Jack's not wearing any armor.  He gets hit by a big game rilfe, which 
> does 6D damage.  Due to the maximum damage rule, he only takes 3 D6 
> damage.

> For comparison, let's say that Jack is wearing Diplo armor (flexible 
> AV3).  He gets hit by the big game rifle.  He takes 3 D6 +3 damage.

> Why the +3 damage?  It is because of the blunt trauma rule that says  a
> character takes 1 point of damage for every damage die negated by 
> flexible armor.

Caveat:  I'm not using T4's combat rules in my games because I want a more
detailed and deadly system.  However, here you go..

1.  Roll all the D6 for the weapon.  They will be applied from highest to
lowest, so arrange them in that order.

2.  Remove dice equal to the armor rating starting with the highest number. 
If flexible armor replace each removed die with a 1, if rigid armor
completely remove the dice.

3a.  On first hit apply all damage from top 3 dice to one Physical
Attribute at random (or player choice).

3b.  On second and subsequent hits apply each of the top 3 dice die (or hit
group) of damage to different Physical Attributes at random (or player
choice) starting with the highest remaining hit group and continuing until
all hits are applied.  This may require some Attributes taking more than 1
die of damage.


Example:  Big Game Rifle (6d6) against Diplo armor (3flex).

  1.   6d6 -> 3,3,6,2,5,1  arranged -->  6,5,3,3,2,1
  2.   replace 6,5,3  giving 3,2,1,1,1,1
  3a.  apply to one Physical Attribute --> 3+2+1=6
      or
  3b. apply each die to a Physical Attribute -->   3,2,1
  

Example:  Big Game Rifle (6d6) against Rigid armor (3rigid).

  1.  6d6 -> 6,5,3,3,2,1
  2. remove 6,5,3 giving 3,2,1
  3. apply 6 to one Attribute on first hit and 3, 2, 1 to different
     Attributes on subsequent hits.
     
Example:  Big Game Rifle (6d6) vs no armor

  1. 6d6 ->  6,5,3,3,2,1
  
  2. remove no dice giving 6,5,3,3,2,1
  
  3. apply 14 to one Attribute on first hit and 6,5,4 to different
     Attributes on subsequent hits.
     
Example:  Revolver (2d6) vs flex1

  1. 2d6 -> 5,4
  
  2. replace  5 giving 4,1
  
  3. apply 5 or 4,1
  
Example:  Revolver (2d6) vs rigid1

 1.  2d6 -> 5,4
  
 2.  remove 5
 
 3.  apply 4 to an Attribute
 
Example Revolver (2d6) vs no armor

 1.  2d6 -> 5,4
 2.  remove none
 3.  apply 9 or 5,4
 
 
Play around with that. <g>

Eris    
     
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 21:41:45 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Ken's Questions

On 02/25/97 at 05:44 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> I am playing with a new idea that may cure the ills of the T4 task 
> system and KBv1.1.

Do tell?

> That is, it will get rid of the 1/2 die, reduce the math involved  with
> KBv1.1, and still provide low probabilities for Impossible  tasks.

Lay it on me, big guy!  If you can do all that I'll *think* about giving up
my Aptitude idea...nah! ;->  

> Attributes.

> This should be easy.  I am working from the assumption that  attributes
> run from 1 to 15.  This is stated in the rules, so there  should be no
> problem there.  

Ken, two things..first, 15 might be the maximum, but it's too damn easy to
get that high, second I think it would be easier to solve the problems if
Attributes ranged from 1 to 8.  Foex, roll 2d3 rather than 2d6, and limit
increases to a max of 8.  (And you *know* I don't really like d3's. <g>)

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, yeah 1 to 15 is pretty much
Traveller.

> My assumption is that the average human attribute, that is "average 
> human ability in the stat category", is 7 just like in CT.

Yeah, if you do the 2d6 thing, then 7 is the mean, but with the way
CharGen is now that 7 is likely to grow to an 8 or 9..and if it's
EDU then it can easily average 11 or 12.  THIS is what is what's
unbalancing things.

> OK, assumption two, and this will be a little more sticky.

> My thinking is that the skill levels in T4 are valued as much as they 
> were in CT.  The difference in T4 is that characters have more skills 

> That is, level 1 is a beginner level.  Level 3 is a professional  level.

That's close to my view, but I tend to push Professional a level
higher.  Here's how I see it:

Level 1     Novice              
Level 2     Advanced Student   
Level 3     Journeyman         
Level 4     Professional
Level 5     Expert
Level 6     Master
Level 7     Grand Master
Level 8     Yoda

However, I personally think that if Attributes average 7 then Skills should
average 6 to 8 after any tinkering we do.  This is for  competent PC's, not
beginners or experts.  With that in mind here's how the levels
(assuming each level is worth 1 point in the target number).

Level 1     Novice              
Level 2     Student   
Level 3     Advanced Student
Level 4     Journeyman         
Level 5     Advanced Journeyman
Level 6     Professional
Level 7     Expert
Level 8     Master
Level 9     Grand Master
Level 10+   Yoda

> Also given these assumptions, I think that the average skill level  that
> a character has will be around 2 or 3.  Picking one of these,  I'd say
> that level 2 is the average skill level for a character.

I might go with 3 levels, rather than 2, for character averages, and
this *isn't* assuming 1 point/level.

If we use whole d6's in the task levels then here's what works from
my testing:
                  Target Number succeeding about
Die   Name       90%     75%     50%     25%     10%
====================================================
1d6   Automatic   6       5       3       2       1
2d6   Easy       10       9       7       5       4
3d6   Routine    14      12      10       8       6
4d6   Hard       18      16      14      11       9
5d6   Formidable 22      20      17      14      12 
6d6   Staggering 26      23      21      18      15

I think a player who is average in Attributes, but Professional in
capability would have a Target Number in the 14 to 18 range.

If the Attribute contributes an average of 8 for the average player
(after being raised during CharGen) then you need 6 to 10 points
from Skill.  If we're talking about 3 Levels to be a Professional,
then it's 3 pts/level.  If we're talking Professional at 4 Levels
then it's 2pts/level.

If you go with 2pt/level then you get the Professional range (14-18) at
a/an: 
 Attribute  2  Skill Level 6-8
 Attribute  5  Skill Level 5-7
 Attribute  8  Skill Level 3-5
 Attribute 10  Skill Level 2-4
 Attribute 12  Skill Level 1-3
 Attribute 15  Skill Level 0-2
 
Does this help you any?


Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 18:59:59 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Quality

An open letter to Marc Miller;

I have been an avid Traveller fan for the past 20 years, and I have
watched as the game transformed into its many different creations.=20
Through all the years I stood silently, rejoicing with each success, and
being struck by some of the stupid mistakes that were made.  I have
followed the many arguments for different systems, rules or designs and
have enjoyed them all (doesn=92t really matter what you use to me, as long
as you have fun.  I have always used my own bastard system. That is what
makes Traveller great =96 FLEXABILITY, IMHO).  However I can no longer
stand by silently, as I have reached the end of my rope (or I have
become an angry old man, no matter as I will now stand on my soap box).=20

For twenty years the Game has evolved, and in many ways improved.  CT
was good, MT if tweaked, great!, NE (skip that one), and now we get to
T4, could be the best of the best. Unfortunately, the most consistent
thing about each generation is how the amount of MISTAKES increase with
each.  Missing tables, charts, information, rules that do not work, data
that should be meshed seamlessly with other books all have gotten worse
with each new generation. With each new book I have gotten more
concerned. MO and FS being the final straw.

I bring this up not to complain, but to ask that more time, or people,
be used to proof the material prior to release.  If the quality
continues to be this shoddy, everyone losses.  Let me explain; While in
my local gaming store I overheard two young men discussion T4.  The gist
of the conversation can be summarized in two thoughts =96 Good idea, lousy
execution.  When I asked what they meant, they said that they had heard
that the rules had so many mistakes, etc., that they figured they were
better off not buying it. =20

Marc, I ask that you get some type of quality control program in place.
As I tell my clients, "Do it right the first time!"  This saves time and
money down stream.  Use the Intranet/Internet to distribute copies of
the text prior to producing the film. Do anything, just get control of
it. =20

I thank you for your time, and will now step down. =20

Until twenty years,

Bob "The Watcher"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 16:44:01 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

I think part of the problem here is the assured "+3" damage; that's better
than another die of damage (okay, so it's about "average", but you get the
average every time, with no 1s or 2s).  

I like the "max damage is never exceeded by blunt trauma damage" rule, but
I think the problem lies with the blunt trauma damage being excessive.  I
think what I might do is either disregard blunt trauma altogether, or say
something like "subtract 1 die, plus 1 die for each AV" or maybe (simpler)
"add 1 pt of blunt trauma for each 2d of damage absorbed."  So the case
below with the big game rifle would be 3d without armor, or 2d+3 with flex
armor, or 3d+1 using the second suggestion.  These aren't a lot different,
of course, so you might want to lose the armor if you're going up against
crazed African hunters or something.  

>What Dominic said:
>
>He said, basically, that the blunt trauma rule is broken, and after 
>hearing his explanation, I agree.
>
>How?  Take this example.
>
>Jack's not wearing any armor.  He gets hit by a big game rilfe, which 
>does 6D damage.  Due to the maximum damage rule, he only takes 3 D6 
>damage.
>
>For comparison, let's say that Jack is wearing Diplo armor (flexible 
>AV3).  He gets hit by the big game rifle.  He takes 3 D6 +3 damage.
>
>Why the +3 damage?  It is because of the blunt trauma rule that says 
>a character takes 1 point of damage for every damage die negated by 
>flexible armor.
>
>As Dominic has said, therein lies the problem.  Under T4 as written, 
>a character with no armor takes (or could take--depending on how the 
>dice are rolled) less damage than a character with armor.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 17:38:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: First Survey: should've been...

     I hate to seem like I'm dwelling on this, I'd just as soon move on, but in
looking at the Vland sector data in "Vilani & Vargr" this morning (it's one of
the only pre-T4 products I have at school), I realized what "First Survey"
should have been like to make it a worthwhile product (instead of the painfully
expesnive rip-off that it is now).
     First, the DGP write-up for Vland c. 1120 contains all of the same info as
FS: location, name, UWP, trade class, Bases, PBG, stellar; but in a smaller
type-face so that they can fit two columns per page.  The total sector data
comes out to 3pp! (for comparison sake, the data for the same sector in FS is
8pp).  Now, since Vland seems to have about average number of systems, I figure
3pp is a pretty good average, plus 1 for the map, plus 2 (guessing) for Player
Data (which would also be shrunk accordingly).  For all 9 sectors presented,
this gives 54pp.  If we decide to make FS into a 64pp book, we've got 10 extra
pages.  Okay, we have the intro and "situation" from the current book take up
2pp, and here's my suggestion for how to fill the rest: 1-2pp explanation of
terms (what the UWP values stand for, what PBG means, I remember something
similar on DGP's referee screen), 1p Map of the Imperium highlighting the
included sectors (this would replace the schematic diagram in the current
book), 1-2pp listing the info from the Comments section of the current listings
(locations of old Depots, AAB repositories, Minor Race homeworlds, etc), 2-3pp
telling procedures for a standard "survey" (could be as simple as in "The
Imperial Fringe," preferably more akin to he intro section of DGP's "World
Builder's handbook"), and, if there's room, the standard IG ads.  (Also, added
to the present intro would be specific mention that this book is a companion to
"Milieu 0" and is not intended to be used on its own, and added to the Player
data on the various sectors (which would greatly expand the number of Known
worlds, especially around the Core) would be a short paragraph or so for each
sector giving a little background-- how much of the sector's been explored,
known Pocket Empires, known alien races, any sites of historical significance,
etc., as much as will fit).
     With that amount and arrangement of info, I think that this would be a
pretty decent supplement.  At 64pp, it would then be saddle-bound/stapled
(which not only would probably help keep the price down, but would also
facilitate photocopying-- I don't think it's any secret that most GMs would
rather give their players a photocopy to mark up than pages from their actual
book).  Price for this book would be NO MORE THAN $12.95.  I still think that
would be a little steep, but I expect that gaming books are going to cost more
than I think they should (Note that "Vilani & Vargr" cost $12.95 and while
admittedly that was several years ago, it's also a 104pp book).  Lastly, and 
this is important, it would not be labeled as "Book 6," because it is not of 
the same "level" as the other supplements.  If you notice the IG product 
numbers this, is already reflected (T4 is #1000, St is #1100, CSC is #1200, 
AA is #1300, M0 is #1400, FS is #1401) and I think that's how it belongs.  
     If FS had looked something like this, I would have been completely 
satisfied-- I'd probably still think that it was one of the least useful and
interesting of T4 books, but I certainly wouldn't feel cheated the way I do 
with the current product.
     There, now that I've said all that and got it off my chest I can put this
behind me and go on with my life (albeit with less money than I had before).  I
sincerely hope that the new layout people have some of the same ideas and will
keep this in mind when designing the Aslan-space Survey later this year.  If
not, it's not going to be too long before IG starts losing valuable customers
(ie- me) who simply can't afford to shell out big bucks for shoddy products.

Later,

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 17:55:32 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: task resolution redux (was... somethign or other)

At 05:02 PM 3/1/97 -0600, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 03/01/97 at 10:52 AM,  Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> said:
>> Along those lines, did anyone see the suggestion I posted for reconciling
>> skills and attributes?  
>
>Mike, I didn't see it.  I've been having ISP troubles and have missed a few
>posts here and there, so it might have hit the list and I missed it. 

Here is what I posted.  I posted this originally during the heat of the
task system posts (not that I want to stir _that_ up again), so it may have
been missed in the crossfire.

- --
At 02:18 AM 2/26/97 +0000, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>People think that because to are doubling the skill and halving the 
>attribute, you end up with much more skill than attribute.
>
>But, this is not true because of the different scales each is on.  
>Stats run from 2 to 15.  Skills run from 1 to about 9.
>
>The average stat is 7.  The average skill is 2.

This is an excellent point, and indicates that maybe the correct place for
the fix is in character generation: put the skills on the same scale as
attributes.  This would balance the importance of skills and attributes in
game play, make in-game calculations significantly easier, and probably do
away with the need to record intermediate numbers on scratch sheets.

This could also make for better granularity in chargen.  If you wanted to
you could make a table showing how many points you increase each time you
get a skill during character generation, as:

Number of times skill encountered:  1   2   3   4   5   6
Additional points gained in skill:  1   2   4   3   3   2

This is just off the top of my head, but I like this table.  It shows a
nice quasi-bell-shaped progression in proficiency (skewed toward the side
of skill acquisition, which is arguably realistic), and both the average
and maximum proficiencies don't change: a character with a skill-3 would
now have skill-7, while a character in T4 with skill-6 would have skill-15,
corresponding to someone having attribute-15.

Thoughts?


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 21:02:21 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

Volker A. Greimann writes:

>Why, we Germans are only out for Unity, Right and Freedom and that 
>these are the goals we should all strive for for the better of our 
>land... I can see nothing bloodthirsty in that...! 

   You of course mean Germans as they have been constituted since 1945. 
Prior to 1945....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 20:59:03 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)

Colin Hollands writes:

>Craig are you sure we were incompetent at shooting, or just very accurate,
>after all the flag pole wasn,t rebelling against us, it never tried to 
>kill us, so why kill it. now the COLONIAL REBELS on the other hand....

   ...were no longer colonial rebels, effective September 3, 1783
(almost exactly 11 years earlier), the day that Britain formally agreed
to American independence.

   214 years later and we *still* get no respect!

>As for our fondness of blowing things up, i'm afraid we are amatures
>compared to our friends across the pond, to site a few references...
>Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Iraq...... need i
>add more.

   Well you could list your references: Dresden being one.  We could
also go into the whole litnany of British crimes and acts of war against
any number of peoples over a period of nearly a thousand years, most of
which while less dramatic were certainly just as destructive if not more
so in relative terms.  People who live in glass houses should not throw
stones.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 17:55:28 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

At 05:49 PM 3/1/97 -0600, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>Caveat:  I'm not using T4's combat rules in my games because I want a more
>detailed and deadly system.  However, here you go..
>
>1.  Roll all the D6 for the weapon.  They will be applied from highest to
>lowest, so arrange them in that order.
>
>2.  Remove dice equal to the armor rating starting with the highest number. 
>If flexible armor replace each removed die with a 1, if rigid armor
>completely remove the dice.

I like the idea that armor does the most it can for you -- you're removing
the "most lethal" die rolls.  The last part of this part is, of course,
exactly the same as the existing system: you ignore 3 dice, but add +3 to
the overall damage.  

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 21:09:36 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: The D66 Task System (was 2D TS)

Yep, just to be annoying, I've belatedly decided that my "2D Task System"
should be called the "D66 Task System". The original misnomer was meant to
stress the fact that it only uses two dice, but this obscured the system's
uniqueness.

Of course, part of its uniqueness lies in its wonky calculations, performed
in a strange variant of base-6. Well, enough of that. Why not just convert
the whole thing to a table and have done with it?

So here's The New Improved D66 System, with TN Table.

NEW changes:
  * Stat to Skill ratio has been upped to 3:1, which has necessitated lower
BTNs. TNs for Skill Levels 1 and 2 are, as a result, rather lower than
before; Impossible tasks are now well beyond the reach of most PCs at these
levels.
  * Just to be extra annoying, TNs for 0-Level Default skills are back to
- -1 level of difficulty, not -2.
  * This system assumes an upper limit to Skill Levels of about 10 (though
the TN Table shows only 0 to 8). If your game involves PCs with higher
Skill Levels, I suggest using a Stat to Skill ratio of 2:1 instead.
  * Note that there is no built-in upper limit on attributes in this
system, which can easily accomodate Characters with attributes above 16,
such as robots, aliens, variant human species, or prosthetically augmented
humans. The absolute upper limit is probably 24. (A character with stat 20
and skill 1 has a Difficult TN of 65 (98%), Impossible 35 (47.6%).
  * Note also that it is very easy to add further levels of Difficulty -
"Beyond Impossible", "Insane", "Suicidal", etc - simply by subtracting from
the first digit of the TN. This is particularly useful when dealing with
super-powered PCs. And it doesn't require thowing bucketfulls of dice.

The table is in two sections, which can be cut-n-pasted to make a single table.
- -------------------------------------------------

             The D66 Task System
                    v2.0
          A simple task roll system
   compatible with Marc Miller's Traveller (T4)

The task roll is always two dice; one for a 'tens' digit and one for a
'ones' digit, for a result between 11 and 66. As in T4, the task is
successful if the player rolls the Target Number (TN) or less.

Consult the Target Number Table, or use the formula (below) to calculate
Target Numbers without the Table.

"I S F D A E" means Impossible, Staggering, Formidable, Difficult, Average,
Easy.

Below the appropriate Skill/Difficulty Level, find the appropriate Stat
Code (in hexadecimal), which will provide the TN, at left. TNs for Stats
above F are not shown, but are easy to extrapolate. The "Stat Only" column
gives TNs for unmodified attribute tests. For 0-Level Skills, do not halve
the attribute. At right is a rough calculation of the statistical odds.

                          Target Number Table:
                          --------------------
    -Skill 0-  -Stat Only-  --Skill 1--  --Skill 2--  --Skill 3-- 
TN  S F D A E  I S F D A E  I S F D A E  I S F D A E  I S F D A E     %
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
11  E 8 2 - -  E 8 2 - - -  B 5 - - - -  8 2 - - - -  5 - - - - -   2.8
12  F 9 3 - -  F 9 3 - - -  C 6 - - - -  9 3 - - - -  6 - - - - -   5.6
13    A 4 - -    A 4 - - -  D 7 1 - - -  A 4 - - - -  7 1 - - - -   8.4
14    B 5 - -    B 5 - - -  E 8 2 - - -  B 5 - - - -  8 2 - - - -  11.2
15    C 6 - -    C 6 - - -  F 9 3 - - -  C 6 - - - -  9 3 - - - -  13.0
16    D 7 1 -    D 7 1 - -    A 4 - - -  D 7 1 - - -  A 4 - - - -  16.8
21    E 8 2 -    E 8 2 - -    B 5 - - -  E 8 2 - - -  B 5 - - - -  19.6
22    F 9 3 -    F 9 3 - -    C 6 - - -  F 9 3 - - -  C 6 - - - -  22.4
23      A 4 -      A 4 - -    D 7 1 - -    A 4 - - -  D 7 1 - - -  25.2
24      B 5 -      B 5 - -    E 8 2 - -    B 5 - - -  E 8 2 - - -  28.0
25      C 6 -      C 6 - -    F 9 3 - -    C 6 - - -  F 9 3 - - -  30.8
26      D 7 1      D 7 1 -      A 4 - -    D 7 1 - -    A 4 - - -  33.6
31      E 8 2      E 8 2 -      B 5 - -    E 8 2 - -    B 5 - - -  36.4
32      F 9 3      F 9 3 -      C 6 - -    F 9 3 - -    C 6 - - -  39.2
33        A 4        A 4 -      D 7 1 -      A 4 - -    D 7 1 - -  42.0
34        B 5        B 5 -      E 8 2 -      B 5 - -    E 8 2 - -  44.8
35        C 6        C 6 -      F 9 3 -      C 6 - -    F 9 3 - -  47.6
36        D 7        D 7 1        A 4 -      D 7 1 -      A 4 - -  50.4
41        E 8        E 8 2        B 5 -      E 8 2 -      B 5 - -  53.2
42        F 9        F 9 3        C 6 -      F 9 3 -      C 6 - -  56.0
43          A          A 4        D 7 1        A 4 -      D 7 1 -  58.8
44          B          B 5        E 8 2        B 5 -      E 8 2 -  60.6
45          C          C 6        F 9 3        C 6 -      F 9 3 -  64.4
46          D          D 7          A 4        D 7 1        A 4 -  67.2
51          E          E 8          B 5        E 8 2        B 5 -  70.0
52          F          F 9          C 6        F 9 3        C 6 -  72.8
53                       A          D 7          A 4        D 7 1  74.6
54                       B          E 8          B 5        E 8 2  78.4
55                       C          F 9          C 6        F 9 3  81.2
56                       D            A          D 7          A 4  83.2
61                       E            B          E 8          B 5  86.0
62                       F            C          F 9          C 6  88.9
63                                    D            A          D 7  91.7
64                                    E            B          E 8  94.5
65                                    F            C          F 9  97.3
66                                                 D            A 100.0

    --Skill 4--  --Skill 5--  --Skill 6--  --Skill 7--  --Skill 8--
TN  I S F D A E  I S F D A E  I S F D A E  I S F D A E  I S F D A E     %
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
11  2 - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -   2.8
12  3 - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -   5.6
13  4 - - - - -  1 - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -   8.4
14  5 - - - - -  2 - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  11.2
15  6 - - - - -  3 - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  13.0
16  7 1 - - - -  4 - - - - -  1 - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  16.8
21  8 2 - - - -  5 - - - - -  2 - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  19.6
22  9 3 - - - -  6 - - - - -  3 - - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - -  22.4
23  A 4 - - - -  7 1 - - - -  4 - - - - -  1 - - - - -  - - - - - -  25.2
24  B 5 - - - -  8 2 - - - -  5 - - - - -  2 - - - - -  - - - - - -  28.0
25  C 6 - - - -  9 3 - - - -  6 - - - - -  3 - - - - -  - - - - - -  30.8
26  D 7 1 - - -  A 4 - - - -  7 1 - - - -  4 - - - - -  1 - - - - -  33.6
31  E 8 2 - - -  B 5 - - - -  8 2 - - - -  5 - - - - -  2 - - - - -  36.4
32  F 9 3 - - -  C 6 - - - -  9 3 - - - -  6 - - - - -  3 - - - - -  39.2
33    A 4 - - -  D 7 1 - - -  A 4 - - - -  7 1 - - - -  4 - - - - -  42.0
34    B 5 - - -  E 8 2 - - -  B 5 - - - -  8 2 - - - -  5 - - - - -  44.8
35    C 6 - - -  F 9 3 - - -  C 6 - - - -  9 3 - - - -  6 - - - - -  47.6
36    D 7 1 - -    A 4 - - -  D 7 1 - - -  A 4 - - - -  7 1 - - - -  50.4
41    E 8 2 - -    B 5 - - -  E 8 2 - - -  B 5 - - - -  8 2 - - - -  53.2
42    F 9 3 - -    C 6 - - -  F 9 3 - - -  C 6 - - - -  9 3 - - - -  56.0
43      A 4 - -    D 7 1 - -    A 4 - - -  D 7 1 - - -  A 4 - - - -  58.8
44      B 5 - -    E 8 2 - -    B 5 - - -  E 8 2 - - -  B 5 - - - -  60.6
45      C 6 - -    F 9 3 - -    C 6 - - -  F 9 3 - - -  C 6 - - - -  64.4
46      D 7 1 -      A 4 - -    D 7 1 - -    A 4 - - -  D 7 1 - - -  67.2
51      E 8 2 -      B 5 - -    E 8 2 - -    B 5 - - -  E 8 2 - - -  70.0
52      F 9 3 -      C 6 - -    F 9 3 - -    C 6 - - -  F 9 3 - - -  72.8
53        A 4 -      D 7 1 -      A 4 - -    D 7 1 - -    A 4 - - -  74.6
54        B 5 -      E 8 2 -      B 5 - -    E 8 2 - -    B 5 - - -  78.4
55        C 6 -      F 9 3 -      C 6 - -    F 9 3 - -    C 6 - - -  81.2
56        D 7 1        A 4 -      D 7 1 -      A 4 - -    D 7 1 - -  83.2
61        E 8 2        B 5 -      E 8 2 -      B 5 - -    E 8 2 - -  86.0
62        F 9 3        C 6 -      F 9 3 -      C 6 - -    F 9 3 - -  88.9
63          A 4        D 7 1        A 4 -      D 7 1 -      A 4 - -  91.7
64          B 5        E 8 2        B 5 -      E 8 2 -      B 5 - -  94.5
65          C 6        F 9 3        C 6 -      F 9 3 -      C 6 - -  97.3
66          D 7          A 4        D 7 1        A 4 -      D 7 1 - 100.0


- ------------------

Alternatively, here's a table to showing the TNs for Stat 7. Numbers in
brackets are automatic tasks. SO = Stat Only, for straight tests of
attributes, without added skills.
For each stat point above 7, add 1 to these Target Numbers (in base-6).
For each stat point below 7, subtract 1 (in base-6).

Target Number Table
Stat = 7                        Skill
                    
        0   SO    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9   10
Easy   36   46   53   56   63  (66) (73) (76)  --   --   --   --
Avge   26   36   43   46   53   56   63  (66) (73) (76)  --   --
Diff   16   26   33   36   43   46   53   56   63  (66) (73)  --
Form   13   16   23   26   33   36   43   46   53   56   63  (76)
Stag  -16   06   13   16   23   26   33   36   43   46   53   66
Imps  -26  -16   03   06   13   16   23   26   33   36   43   56

- ---------------------

    The Target Number Formula:

      Target Number = BTN + (skill*2) + (characteristic-7)

So, to determine the target number for a task:

1. Determine the Base Target Number (BTN):

   Difficulty Level       BTN
      Impossible          -16
      Staggering           06
      Formidable           16
      Difficult            26
      Average              36
      Easy                 46

2. Modify the BTN by the PC's skill and by the corresponding characteristic.

   2a: +3 for each skill level. 
   2b: +1 for each characteristic point above 7; -1 for each point below 7.
        
NOTE, however, that these modifiers are not added in base-10. The modifiers
are counted as steps up or down the 11-66 matrix:

- -11 -12 -13 -14 -15 -16  01  02  03  04  05  06
 11  12  13  14  15  16  21  22  23  24  25  26
 31  32  33  34  35  36  41  42  43  44  45  46
 51  52  53  54  55  56  61  62  63  64  64  66

Example: a character with Skill 3 and Stat 9 is attempting a Difficult
task. The BTN is 26. He adds 9 for the skill (3*3=9) + 2 for the
above-average stat (9-7=2), for a total modifier of +11. The result is not
37, as it would be in base-10. Instead, he counts 11 steps up the matrix;
so the actual target number is 45. *The calculation becomes much simpler if
you remember that six steps up or down the matrix equals one level of
Difficulty, altering the first digit by 1.*

To save time, Difficult-task TNs for all skills can be pre-calculated by
the players before play begins. Adjusting for other Difficulty Levels is a
simple matter of altering the first digit of the target number.

For tests of 0-level Default Skills, don't halve the characteristic (as in
T4). Instead, increase the Difficulty by one level (by simply subtracting 1
from the first digit of the base target number).

As always, a roll of two sixes is a Spectacular Failure, and two ones is a
Spectacular Success - even if the target number is below 11. Chance of
Spectacular Success or Failure is always 2.8%.

NOTE: The T4 Multiple Actions rule will not work in this system. A new rule
is needed: when attempting multiple actions, do not divide the
characteristic. Instead, increase the difficulty two levels for each extra
action (-2 to the first digit of the target number). Thus, for a character
with stat of 7 and skill of 6, the target number for a single Difficult
action is 56-; for two such actions, 36-; for three, 16-. (Obviously, this
rule does not allow characters to perform as many extra actions as the
original rule.)

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1012
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 2 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1013



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)
Re: THUDD Diktat
Re: External Grapples and QSDS
Re: Blunt Trauma Damage
Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!
Re: (Fwd) Re: ID4 and Americans
STARSHIP TROOPERS
Re: Blunt Trauma Damage
Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
Re: task resolution redux (was... somethign or other)
Re: micro survey
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Old foggies quiz
Is it the Task System?
Re: ID4 and Americans
All things Nastiness
Re: Imagination

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 21:25:24 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

Keith Randolph (SirBStard@aol.com) writes:

>>In a message dated 97-02-26 15:53:42 EST, Doug Berry writes:
>
>> Once again stellar type seems to have been randomly assigned without
>>regard for the world.  the worst case I've noticed so far is an 
>>Agricultural world orbiting a M9d.  Gives new meaning to the term 
>>"iceberg lettuce."
>
>   Iceberg, heck this is ICEFIELD lettuce. Maybe the have one heck of a 
>large hydroponics facility.

   Still doesn't fly Keith.  Any planet orbiting around a M9d is going
to be so cold that it wouldn't have a type 4-9 atmosphere.  Having a
type 4-9 atmosphere is a prerequisite for a planet to be classified as
Agricultural according to Book 6, MT, and TNE.

   Your best bet for dealing with the stellar data in the new books (M:0
and First Survey) is to disregard it and start from scratch.  My
understanding is that the current plan is to present a better, more
realistic system for generating stars in "Pocket Empires"--I suggest you
use it to regenerate everything, unless IG issues some errata to cover
the stellar data in the meantime.

   An example of what stellar data *should* look like (or at least
something that is more realistic) can be found in Traveller Chronicle
#10, which contains the reformulated Solomani Rim star list.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 22:02:41 -0500
From: Charlie Moore <brreclus@spectra.net>
Subject: Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)

 How about this pov. The planet is populated by an agressor species. When it
bands into large groups it does what it must do, it fights. The larger the
groups the more advanced the nation the bigger the bang. I guess my point is
there are no good guys just winners and losers, and each nation writes it's
own history.
                                                                            
                                                         Tanks 
                                                                            
                                                         Charlie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 19:01:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDD Diktat

2) Since I'm not really clear on the source of the confusion, and don't
have time to go read the rules right now as I am _HELLISHLY_ busy, can you
guys make succint statements of the problem and post them for discussion.
I'm tempted not to make a ruling, and simply let voters' ratings reflect
the opinion on the list as to the non/brokenness of the designs.  Comments
are invited.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

  As QSDS is currently written, a small craft added using external
grapples does not require the ship designer to account for the added
tonnage.  See, for example, my design for the CT Broadsword using QSDS.  I
stuck a 50 ton modular cutter on the outside using external grapples, and
nowhere did the rules say I needed to up the size of the jump or manuever
drive to account for the additional tonnage.

  My suggestion for a fix is as follows:

1) During the Hull selection part of SSDS design, after selecting a
hull, decide the total tonnage of small craft to be carried in external
grapples (if any).

2) During the Jump Drive selection portion, add the tonnage of the hull
and the small craft together.  Select the tonnage catagory for jump drive
equal to or larger than the total to determine the Jump Drive Potential
required for the craft and the fuel tankage required.

3) Follow the same procedure when selecting the manuever drive system.


  Thus, to take the CT Broadsword design I posted previously, the total
volume of the ship hull (800 tons) is added to the tonnage of the cutter
in the external grapple (50 tons), for a total of 850 tons.  The next
largest QSDS size Jump Drive is for a 900 ton ship, so we use that line on
the Jump Drive Potential table.  Thus, the drive potential required for J3
with the external grapples would be 36 rather than 32, and the ship would
need 270 tons of fuel rather than 240.

  i think this is a simple and easy fix.  It causes problems for ships
larger than 1000 tons, since the tables for Jump Drive Potential go up in
1000 Ton increments after that, but that's tough - if you don't like it,
use SSDS.

  Note: It would be nice if docking rings were added to QSDS in a future
version, but that's of no moment here and now. 

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 20:48:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: External Grapples and QSDS

FF&S excerpt:

> External Grapple:  Types listed are for unstreamlined (USL), streamlined 
> (SL), and airframe (AF) hulls of the carrying ship, not the carried 
> craft.  Note that the volume of craft carried in exteranl grapples is not 
> subtracted from the volume of the carrying ship, although the volume of 
> the grapple is.  Remember that the volume of the carrying ship plus all 
> externally carried craft is used when calculating the required amount of 
> maneuver drive and jump drive.

...and that's why they *can't* work under QSDS.  Much of the 'standard'
equipment in QDSD is created by cross-indexing a hull size with a desired
performance level, directly or indirectly.  There are only a fixed number
of hull types available, though, of fixed sizes.

You can't model an 800 ton sphere with a 50 ton craft externally grappled
either of these ways:

1) Add the two, getting 850.  Suddenly, your drives (maneuver and jump)
   are underpowered by about 6%, because they're scaled to the 800 ton
   hull.

2) Subtract the 50 tons from the 800, pretending it's really a 750 ton
   hull.  Not only are you then paying too much (in power and money) for
   the QSDS hull, you're buying a nonstandard hull (750 ton sphere), and
   thus should lose the QSDS discount.

If we insist on supporting external grapples (and partly-external docking
rings) in QSDS, option 2 does less damage to the overall consistency.  The
cost differences for the slightly smaller hull is usually trivial, and we
can always handwave additional 'standard' hulls into existence.

Comments?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 00:14:10 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma Damage

Kenneth Bearden said,

>Jack's not wearing any armor.  He gets hit by a big game rilfe, which 
>does 6D damage.  Due to the maximum damage rule, he only takes 3 D6 
>damage.
>For comparison, let's say that Jack is wearing Diplo armor (flexible 
>AV3).  He gets hit by the big game rifle.  He takes 3 D6 +3 damage.
>Why the +3 damage?  It is because of the blunt trauma rule that says 
>a character takes 1 point of damage for every damage die negated by 
>flexible armor.
>As Dominic has said, therein lies the problem.  Under T4 as written, 
>a character with no armor takes (or could take--depending on how the 
>dice are rolled) less damage than a character with armor.

[fix snipped]

>Comments on this fix?

I'm not so sure the rule is broken - it makes sense to me. The reason for
the 3D damage limit is that any further kinetic energy is lost. The rounds
go right through the injured PC; thus their body does not absorb the full
kinetic energy.

However, if someone wearing Flex is hit by a high powered rifle (6D
damage), the armor absorbs the kinetic energy that would otherwise have
been lost. The PC will take an extra three points, above and beyond the 3D
limit - because if they weren't wearing armor this energy would've been
lost. Seems paradoxical, but it's entirely possible that wearing no armor
is, on rare occasions, preferable to wearing Flex!

A suggested "fix" (if it needs any fixing) might be:

*If the PC is not armored*, then they take the *highest* 3D of the full
number of dice. But, if they're flexible armor, the armor absorbs those
dice *before* damage is rolled.

This would ensure that wearing Flex does confer a real benefit compared to
not wearing armor at all - but if you're not lucky you might still take
more than 18 points.

Does this makes sense?

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 00:02:53 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

On 03/01/97 at 05:55 PM,  Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> said:

> I like the idea that armor does the most it can for you -- you're
> removing the "most lethal" die rolls.  

I don't know if that's what IG had in mind, but doing it this helps...and
if you want a more lethal system reverse things and have the armor reduce
from lowest die up.

> The last part of this part is, of
> course, exactly the same as the existing system: you ignore 3 dice, but
> add +3 to the overall damage.  

Yep, pretty much.  The extra 1,1,1 (shouldn't call it 3, cause it's
supposed to be applied individually <g>), won't get applied with big guns
anyway.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 00:45:51 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!

On 03/01/97 at 09:25 PM,  "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net> said:

> Keith Randolph (SirBStard@aol.com) writes:

> >   Iceberg, heck this is ICEFIELD lettuce. Maybe the have one heck of a 
> >large hydroponics facility.

>    Still doesn't fly Keith.  Any planet orbiting around a M9d is going to
> be so cold that it wouldn't have a type 4-9 atmosphere. 

To make this one fly, you have to resort to some creative
planetology.  <G> Hum, let's see...SHORTS is an Earth sized moon orbiting a
Brown Dwarf in orbit 0 of the M9d.  The dwarf and the star still don't
supply enough heat for the moon, but the interaction of tidal forces keeps
the moon's core hot..hot enough to maintain an atmosphere, a dense CO2 rich
atmosphere, through
volcanism...and the shear perversity of Gaia.  

The main occupation on Shorts is agriculture and agricultural
processing.  Most of this is widespread shallow ocean harvesting of what
we'd mostly think of as foul smelling pond-scum.  The scum is harvested by
independent sweeper boats that skim the surface.  The independents work
well staked claims...careful to stay out of each others..uh, shorts, so to
speak.  They sell their loads of scum to processors on the few scattered
islands who dry and process it into the basic biomass we all eat on our
ships.  The big corps wouldn't be caught in Shorts...they are too
conservative for that.

Lately something stinky has been going on in Shorts...and we don't mean the
scum!  Our heros have been hired by a cooperative of Scum Sweepers to
investigate the disappearance of several sweepers in the "Culotte Square"
area.

We fully intend to dump our heros into the stinking muck on a leaky dingy,
and see if they can survive the "snappers", the erupting volcano and it's
tidal wave, the scum poachers...and the sabotage team from Palluka Oil
that's trying to run the scum sweepers out of their Culotte claims so they
can steal...well steal their Shorts!

Now seriously!  <g> We can twiddle up a few systems like this, but official
Traveller publication have always had *way* too many
anomalous systems.

>    Your best bet for dealing with the stellar data in the new books (M:0
> and First Survey) is to disregard it and start from scratch.  My
> understanding is that the current plan is to present a better, more
> realistic system for generating stars in "Pocket Empires"--I suggest you
> use it to regenerate everything, unless IG issues some errata to cover
> the stellar data in the meantime.

I'll be looking forward to that one then.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 01:27:19 -0700
From: Marshall Bautista <bautista@micron.net>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: ID4 and Americans

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> The Star Spangled Banner was sung at a sporting event for the first
> time in the 1918 World Series in Boston (a wartime series, it might be
> noted), when it was played during the 7th inning stretch (not before

    Actually the first sporting event would probably be the first modern
Olympic games (the only appropriate music that a U.S. destroyer, that
was in port at the time, had)...

MB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 19:34:24 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: STARSHIP TROOPERS

>From: Marshall Bautista <bautista@micron.net>

>    I would suspect that as opposed to
> 
>                "Robert Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS"
>
>    we may see
>
>        "STARSHIP TROOPERS (based on a novel by Robert Heinlein)"

How about: STARSHIP TROOPERS (title borrowed from an utterly unrelated novel by Robert 
Heinlein)?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 04:15:33 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma Damage

> However, if someone wearing Flex is hit by a high powered rifle (6D
> damage), the armor absorbs the kinetic energy that would otherwise have
> been lost. The PC will take an extra three points, above and beyond the 3D
> limit - because if they weren't wearing armor this energy would've been
> lost. Seems paradoxical, but it's entirely possible that wearing no armor
> is, on rare occasions, preferable to wearing Flex!

I can see your point here, and eventhough I might agree with you on 
specific situations, this is not a good point to base a general rule 
on.

Common sense says that armor should protect you, and if you are hit 
by a gunshot, you should not take more damage from the round while 
wearing armor than you would not wearing armor.



> A suggested "fix" (if it needs any fixing) might be:
> 
> *If the PC is not armored*, then they take the *highest* 3D of the full
> number of dice. But, if they're flexible armor, the armor absorbs those
> dice *before* damage is rolled.
> 
> This would ensure that wearing Flex does confer a real benefit compared to
> not wearing armor at all - but if you're not lucky you might still take
> more than 18 points.
> 
> Does this makes sense?

Let me give you a dichotomous answer.

Yes, it makes sense, but it is much more complicated that the fix I 
proposed.  When I tweak a rule, I try to stay as close as possible to 
the original rules.  Your rule strays a little farther from the 
original than mine does.

In my fix, we are just defining the 3 D max rule a little stricter, 
and we are only rolling a few dice (maximum of 3) to calculate 
damage.  That's how T4 was intended to be.

I can see some GMs, who want more or less lethal combat, using your 
method of rolling each of the dice a weapon has designated for damage 
then picking and choosing which of the dice are not considered 
damage.

I'd rather just do the simple thing of saying, "I've just hit you 
with a 4 D6 weapon, and you've got on AV3 flexible armor", and then 
roll 1 D6 +3 damage.

It is much more simple than rolling all 4 D6 and deciding 
which of the die are eliminated from the damage pool by the 
armor.

Now, to comment on the merits of your idea.  In a word, I think 
that it is great.  It is not the system that I would use, but it is 
definitely good thinking and allows GMs to tailor their combat 
styles.  For GMs who don't mind an extra step in the combat round, 
I'd recommend it (since I am already using your hit location chart in 
combat, I don't need another step to contend with).

If I were writing the new edition of T4, I'd throw in my simpler 
idea as the basic rule, but I'd add your idea as an optional, more 
advanced rule, and I'd let respective GMs pick how much detail (and 
extra steps) they wanted.

Good thoughts, Glenn.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 04:15:34 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

> I like the "max damage is never exceeded by blunt trauma damage" rule, but
> I think the problem lies with the blunt trauma damage being excessive.  I
> think what I might do is either disregard blunt trauma altogether, or say
> something like "subtract 1 die, plus 1 die for each AV" or maybe (simpler)
> "add 1 pt of blunt trauma for each 2d of damage absorbed." 

Good idea for a GM who wants less lethal combat, but I like the blunt 
trauma rule.  I didn't expect to see it (it was in TNE) when I opened 
T4, and I was pleased with the simplicity in which it was handled.

One of the things I like about the rule is that it makes for good 
comparisons between rigid and flexible armors.  The rigid armors tend 
to have better AVs but more stat negatives whereas the flexible 
armors are just the opposite.  Whether or not your character will 
take blunt trauma damage gives him something more to think about when 
weighing the pros and cons of different armor types.

I personnally don't think that 1 point for every die is too much for 
blunt trauma, but I can also see a GM going to your "1 pt of blunt 
trauma damage for every two dice the armor absorbs"  system if he 
wanted to lessen the effects of blunt trauma.

Both you and Glenn Grant have had good ideas on this.  Let me revise 
something that I said in response to Glenn.

If I were writing the revised edition of T4, I'd have my rule as the 
basic rule, but I'd throw in yours and Glenn's ideas as two optional 
advanced rules to this system for GMs who like to customize their 
combat styles.

Good work, Mike.

Kenneth.

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 04:15:30 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: task resolution redux (was... somethign or other)

> Here's what I sent out a few days ago.  Feel free to post this to the TML
> if you like.
> 
> Mike
> 
> At 02:18 AM 2/26/97 +0000, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> >People think that because to are doubling the skill and halving the 
> >attribute, you end up with much more skill than attribute.
> >
> >But, this is not true because of the different scales each is on.  
> >Stats run from 2 to 15.  Skills run from 1 to about 9.
> >
> >The average stat is 7.  The average skill is 2.
> 
> This is an excellent point, and indicates that maybe the correct place for
> the fix is in character generation: put the skills on the same scale as
> attributes.  This would balance the importance of skills and attributes in
> game play, make in-game calculations significantly easier, and probably do
> away with the need to record intermediate numbers on scratch sheets.
> 
> This could also make for better granularity in chargen.  If you wanted to
> you could make a table showing how many points you increase each time you
> get a skill during character generation, as:
> 
> Number of times skill encountered:  1   2   3   4   5   6
> Additional points gained in skill:  1   2   4   3   3   2
> 
> This is just off the top of my head, but I like this table.  It shows a
> nice quasi-bell-shaped progression in proficiency (skewed toward the side
> of skill acquisition, which is arguably realistic), and both the average
> and maximum proficiencies don't change: a character with a skill-3 would
> now have skill-7, while a character in T4 with skill-6 would have skill-15,
> corresponding to someone having attribute-15.
> 
> Thoughts?

Good ideas, Mike, but definitely not for me.  

The reason?  I like to stay as close to printed T4 as possible.  If 
something is broken, then I'll tweak it a bit to fix it, but simple 
is the name of the game.  Complicated or sweeping rules changes don't 
interest me.

The task system needs to be fixed, no doubt, but, respectfully, I 
don't think re-working the skill levels like that is the 
answer--especially since it's been that way since the game as 
started.

There has to be a simpler answer.

Thanks for the post, though.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  2 Mar 97 10:02:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: micro survey

> Tyr Gamemakers Ltd. published Space Quest, by Paul Hume and
> George Nyhen in 1977 - IIRC, just before or just after Traveller
> (I forget which...)
    Before Traveller actually, I got the Space Quest book quite a bit before I
bought my first three Traveller books.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 23:10:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

In mail you write:

>>  All night, Key watched anxiously by the light of artillery fire to
>>see if the flag atop the fort would be struck, signalling surrender.  The
>>colors stayed up, and at dawn Key was so moved that he wrote the song
>>which became our National Anthem, using an old English drinking song as
>>the melody.
>
>    Key penned the words (as a poem), but he didn't come up with the
> melody.  Credit goes to Judge J. H. Nicholson, Key's brother-in-law. 
> The melody is indeed from an old English drinking song called "Anacreon
> in Heaven".  Because the melody was not written expressly for the words
> of the poem, The National Anthem is a rather difficult song to sing
> well, especially for untrained voices. 

The song is "To Anacreon in Heaven". I have the words if anybody cares.
And the fact that the words weren't written for the tune has *no*
bearing on the difficulty of signing the song. It's the fact that the
tune covers a couple of octaves (or at least an octave and a half, I'd
have to check) that makes it unsingable by the non-pro. Even
professionals don't always have the required range!

Since the original was a drinking song, nobody *cared* how you sounded!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 23:17:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

In mail you write:
>> > > What was GDW noted for before traveller?
>>  > 
>>  >   Hmmm. Imperium?
>
> Obscure historical board wargames, like Chaco, Coral Sea, the Europa Series,
> Torgau, Crimea, the Russo-Japanese War, and
>
> a run of SF boardgames, including Bloodtree Rebellion, Bouble Star,
> Triplanetary, and Belter.

The *original* release of Triplanetary wasn't a "board game". It had a
*huge* hex map (bigger than *our* dining room table) with a plastic
overlay so you could plot vectors with grease pencil (came in a *big*
mailing tube!). I never got to *play* it, but I saw a friend's copy. I
was rather disappointed to find out that he'd sold it to someone else
when I tried to buy it from him a few years later.

Oh well, I finally got a copy when it was re-released in the late seventies.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  2 Mar 97 10:03:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Is it the Task System?

	I haven't been able to read the Digests of the list for the past week
or so, Family Crisis.  So I've been doing catch up all night long, so 45+
Digests. <looking up at the other list member through bleery eyes> And I've
been reading an AWFUL LOT of stuph on the T4 task system. <sigh> If you guys
are getting paid to generate this volume of mail can you tell me where I go to
hop on the gray train too? <GRIN>
	Seriously, has anyone thought about exactly what a "skill" is?  A skill
is a body of knowledge and physical motions that have been practiced for enough
time so as to subsume the actual thinking of what needs to be done into a near
reflexive response.  This is, for example, why the Martial Arts work.  You've
practiced for so long that you automatically do what needs to be done, as a
reflex.  Typing is the same way.  So is Surgery or Piloting for that matter!
Don't believe me, check out the overall Stats of Surgeons with decades of
experience vs. those with a few.  It's been acknowledged in a number of Airline
crashes and near crashes with large numbers of survivors that is was the skill
and experience of the Pilot which made the difference.
	That being said, there is the fact that someone with a natural talent
does have an advantage.  To my mind the task system isn't broken, if someone
does have a Dex or Int or whatever of 15 they Should be able to pull SOME of
the things a normal professional can do.  BUT, not everything, come on folks
the Ref's gotta step in at some point.  I don't care if the character has an
Int of 15 and Medical of 0, they're not qualified to do brain surgery!
	I suggest the problem lies not in the Task System but in the Character
Generation System which allows for such generous increases in the Stats to be
made in the first place. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:56:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

In mail you write:

> ...
> And the rockets' red glare
> The bombs bursting in air
> Gave proof through the night
> That our flag was still there.
> ...
>
> It was written by Francis Scott Key, an American prisoner aboard a British
> vessel during the shelling of Fort McHenry (I believe), part of the War of
> 1812.  All night, Key watched anxiously by the light of artillery fire to
> see if the flag atop the fort would be struck, signalling surrender.  The
> colors stayed up, and at dawn Key was so moved that he wrote the song
> which became our National Anthem, using an old English drinking song as
> the melody.

A couple of corrections. Key had gone out to the British ships to
negotiate the release of some prisoners. He was held overnight so he
couldn't give warning of the attack. He was released the next day.

And the bit about "rocket's red glare" is not poetic license. This was
during the height of the "Congreve rocket" as a bombardment weapon. Not
long before the British had reduced a couple of seaport in Europe to
ruins with the same sort of rockets.

The rockets weren't as accurate as a cannon, but not that much worse.
And being "recoilless" they could be fired from something a *lot*
easier to transport. The launcher used on land looked much like a 2-3
meter chunk of rain gutter mounted on a tripod. You angled it
appropriately, laid a rocket in the trough and lit it off. The launcher
could be carried on a horse, along with a number of rockets. Add a
couple more horses with rockets and you had artillery that could move
almost as fast as cavalry.

At sea, due to the fire hazard, they launched the rockets from
longboats. They essentially hung a ladder from the mast, and laid the
rocket on that. You adjusted the vertical angle with fairly standard
rigging, and you adjusted horizontally by pointing the boat. The
illustrations I've seen show the ladder sticking out over one side
rather than running lengthwise.

The rockets were a metal tube, several feet long, with a bursting
warhead. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 11:33:27 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: All things Nastiness

Harold wrote: that i shouldn't throw stones,

I'm not, i'm going big time with relativistic asteroids,

We British arn't always proud of our history, for instance it was us who
invented concentration camps against the Boer's not the Germans against the
Jews, they just picked up on a bad idea and then expanded it.

But anyways, i don't wish to stamp on too many big toes with my Size 10 and
half hobnails, so i will Do a Courtly Bow and retire from any slanging
match, about who does what best/worst and just state that their isn't a
single country that has a clean sheet, somewhere in their background is
some sort of nastiness that they would rather forget, and it is human
nature to forget the 1000 good things and remember 1 terrible thing that a
person or nation has done, and it is another fact that the majority of
Wars/conflicts/represive behaviour throughout history have been ostensibly
over Religion.

to cite a few

Richard the Lionheart against the heathen (to Christians) saracens
Charles I against the Scots 1638-40 trying to force them to use a new
prayer book and failed.
The Spanish inquisition in Europe
The Conquistadors in Central/South America
The New world settlers trying to convert the native american indians
The Jews and the Arabs who've been fighting for millenia
The Romans throwing Christians to the Lions 

The list goes on.....

So much for peace and goodwill to all men (providing they are of the same
Relegion,race,creed,colour etc etc)

**** for god sake get off the soap box ****

p.s. Now that i've upset the religious amongst us, no Jyhads against me
purleeze

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 09:21:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imagination

>The irrelevance/imagination ratio of this list is creeping towards 
>critical level. 
Perhaps adding the tag "irrelevent" or OTT (Off the Topic) to the subject
line would help, in the same spirit as long and longish.
dsf

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1013
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 2 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1014



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Old foggies quiz
RE: Roswell Incident
Re: the famous week-long jump
Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)
Re: All Hail Freedonia!
Re: Mileau 0 data
A General Request
remove
Focus of the List
re: Blunt Trama Damage
Docking Rings
Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
Re: Is it the Task System?
re: Blunt Trama Damage
Re: All things Nastiness
"Professional" skill levels.
Relativistic travel (was Re: Focus of the List)
Rifle page is finally up
THUDD Competition - Aurelian Industries Entry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 97 14:44 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

In-Reply-To: <v03007800af3bd1e3b569@[164.67.22.49]>

<< >What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?
Don't know...The Traveller Book has it as 3D. >>

I know a lot of weapon damages changed between the first and second 
printings of the LBBs (mine were 2nd, but I saw a set of 1st once).

2d+3?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 97 14:44 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: RE: Roswell Incident

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970227160056.00834dc0@central.TanSoft.COM>

<< The movie makers don't spend a lot of money seeking to be technically
correct.  "Here hold the salt shaker, it will look like a cool sci-fi
weapon." is part of the magic. >>

They don't mind spending $100 on stars and FX, and most of a year making 
it, but they can't be bothered to spend, what, $1000 and a couple of 
days? to let an expert look over the script?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 97 14:43 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: the famous week-long jump

In-Reply-To: <199702272028.OAA19969@weck.brokersys.com>

<< Just look at the jump drive.  The Vilani first discovered it in 
- -9235.  Then, almost 4,000 years later, they discovered jump-2.

4,000 years?  Damn.

This is true for many technological devices in the Traveller 
universe. >>

Well, this is the Vilani we're talking about - "if it ain't broke, don't 
fix it".

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:25:43 -0500 (EST)
From: SirBStard@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bombardment of Ft. Henry (was national Anthems)

In a message dated 97-03-01 21:54:29 EST, Harold D. Hale writes:

<< >As for our fondness of blowing things up, i'm afraid we are amatures
 >compared to our friends across the pond, to site a few references...
 >Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Iraq...... need i
 >add more.
 
    Well you could list your references: Dresden being one.  We could
 also go into the whole litnany of British crimes and acts of war against
 any number of peoples over a period of nearly a thousand years, most of
 which while less dramatic were certainly just as destructive if not more
 so in relative terms.  People who live in glass houses should not throw
 stones.
  >>
   Conquestador of Mexico;
 The Zulu and the Navaho;
   Drestruction of Cambodia;
 Short memories, oh yea;

   Short......memories......

 - Short Memories by Midnight Oil



Keith Randolph

 Also known as Sir BStard@aol.com

 "When Cerebus' fur gets wet, it takes a strong stomach to stay in the
vicinity" - Cerebus the Aardvark  by David Sim

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:25:53 -0500 (EST)
From: SirBStard@aol.com
Subject: Re: All Hail Freedonia!

In a message dated 97-02-28 03:30:24 EST, you write:

<< Go ahead and swear!  I won't tell. <g>
 
 Now for the next question...Freedonia was at war with what country?
 
 Eris >>

Sylvania.

Keith Randolph

 Also known as Sir BStard@aol.com

 "When Cerebus' fur gets wet, it takes a strong stomach to stay in the
vicinity" - Cerebus the Aardvark  by David Sim

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:25:50 -0500 (EST)
From: SirBStard@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mileau 0 data

In a message dated 97-02-27 14:10:40 EST, Eamon writes:

<< > >...and as for Keshi/Dunea and their "militaristic rulers with their
now-
 > >superior technology":
 > >  Keshi      1938 B566200-7   Lo           114
 > >A hundred people at tech-7 with no government?  I don't think so.
 > 
 Keshi gained its importance because it maintained Jump Drive tech during 
 the long night, and conquered the worlds within 5 parsecs of it. It's 
 year 0 UWP could be due to the fact that the Rulers of Keshi transferred 
 their power base to other worlds of the Kingdom. Keshi could be a sort of 
 Buckingham Palace, or Forbidden 'City' for the Chanestin Royals. In this 
 case the pop modifier represents the Royal population, with the tech 
 modifier inconsequential as most of the tech is imported from the 
 powerhouse Chanestin worlds.
  >>

     This looks to me like the Chanestin got pasted. Cleon and the troops
probably faced some determined resistance so they flattened everything.
 Note- No Government and No Law with only a few people left. Those that were
able probably left the devestated Keshi. The low tech level would also be
accounted for by large scale destruction. Bombed them back to the seventies;
oh no not pastel green disco shirts, this could be *worse* then the stone
age. :)

Keith Randolph

 Also known as Sir BStard@aol.com

 "When Cerebus' fur gets wet, it takes a strong stomach to stay in the
vicinity" - Cerebus the Aardvark  by David Sim

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 97 10:48:08 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: A General Request

Folks:

For those of you using WINMAIL, could you please (please, please, please) 
make sure that you DO NOT send WINMAIL.DAT attachments! When this occurs 
and the digest version of TML is received by my mailer it SCRAGS all 
messages past the offending message. That means my digest (which I 
receive via a toll call) is dead meat. I must then use Netscape to go to 
the archives and get the digest that was toasted. This is another toll 
call for me.

THANK YOU.



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to 
vote."

Ambassador Kosh
BABYLON FIVE

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 11:00:49 -0500 (EST)
From: NVDoyle@aol.com
Subject: remove

remove
nvdoyle@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 97 11:12:39 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Focus of the List

Greetings:

Folks this is the Traveller Mailing List. Not the Blackmoor List. Or the 
History of RPG List. Or the ID4 List. Or the Babylon Five List. Or the 
I'm Damn Proud to be American/I Hate All Americans Lists!

Can we please get back to the subject of the list? Traveller? I mean it's 
fine if we discuss Star Wars or Babylon Five or Starship Troopers--as it 
relates to Traveller. But all the Blackmoor, ID4 and discussions of the 
"...rockets red glare..." is making the CONSIM list (which is infamous 
for topic drift) look like it really sticks to the topic of conflict 
simulation games.

Could we take all the discussions of politics, movies and whether 
Commander Ivonava or BS:G's Aethena would make a better love mat off 
line? Discussing relativistic rocks for the umteenth time is less tedious 
than some of this stuff!



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to 
vote."

Ambassador Kosh
BABYLON FIVE

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 11:46:31 -0500
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: re: Blunt Trama Damage

Greetings

I have been looking over this thread and have been thinking.
Blunt trama should be applied only when the round DOES NOT penetrate. 
Think about it.  Your wearing a diplo vest(av=3) and you get hit by a
revolver slug(dv=2).  the round does not penetrate, but you still feel
the "whomp" of the slug.  2 points blunt trama.  You take a 6d rifle
shot, the round is going to penetrate, but the velocity is slowed down
reducing from 6dice to 3dice, but as the shot rips trough your vest and
into you, there will be no "whomp", no blunt at all, so ignore it.

Take it from someone with personal experience in wounds, blunt trama
makes bruises, but penetration friggin hurts! :)
- -- 
Commander X
(cmdrx@magicnet.net <or> bprankard@theiia.org)
Creator, Maintainor, and Webmeister of "Planet X"
(www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 14:59:58 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Docking Rings

	I posted the excerpt from FF&S to clear up confusion about 
grapples and docking rings.  But some people are still apparently 
confused about docking rings.
	Docking rings DO NOT  leave part of the carried craft outside the 
ship.  If you allocate space for the docking ring there is no need to 
allocate additional drive capacity for externally protruding carried 
craft.  While grapples may be unworkable in QSDS, docking rings are very 
simple and are no more work than a hangar.
	For those who missed the stats the first time:

		Volume	Mass	Area	MCr	MW
Docking Ring	x1	0	-	.0002	-
Launch Port			L^2	.001

The numbers for the docking ring are per cubic meter of docking ring, 
while the numbers for the launch port are per square meter.  Surface area 
requirements of the launch port are the basic length of the carried craft 
squared.
	Basic length means the length of the hull before it is modified 
by configuration.  In other words, the length of a spherical hull of the 
same displacement.  This is the only thing that may create a problem for 
QSDS users, since I don't think the spherical hull length will always 
be available.  Your best bet is to just look this info up on SSDS.
	Yes, every docking ring and every hangar needs a launch port.

- --Pestilence

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 20:27:10 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

On Sun, 02 Mar 97 00:02:53 -0600, you wrote:

> On 03/01/97 at 05:55 PM,  Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> said:
>=20
> > I like the idea that armor does the most it can for you -- you're
> > removing the "most lethal" die rolls. =20
>=20
> I don't know if that's what IG had in mind, but doing it this =
helps...and
> if you want a more lethal system reverse things and have the armor =
reduce
> from lowest die up.
>=20
> > The last part of this part is, of
> > course, exactly the same as the existing system: you ignore 3 dice, =
but
> > add +3 to the overall damage. =20
>=20
> Yep, pretty much.  The extra 1,1,1 (shouldn't call it 3, cause it's
> supposed to be applied individually <g>), won't get applied with big =
guns
> anyway. =20

I created something similar along these lines shortly after TNE came
out, but before T4.  Much of it was based on CT (I own very little MT
stuff, except for a sourcebook or two), specifically Snap Shot.  It
incorporated hit location rules and weapon classifications from TNE,
as well as armour from CT.  It also had nice little tables with data
that you would transfer to your character sheet before gameplay to
keep things simple.

Ahem... each weapon delivered damage using a number of six-sided dice.
Depending on the weapon, different armour types reduced damage by
different amounts (each weapon was cross-referenced with each armour
type to recreate every possible weapon/armour combination).  Depending
on the weapon, each armour type would have a value between "1+" and
"6", as well as "-" (representing no effect).  Weapon damage ranged
from 1d6 (various low calibre toxin delivery rounds and individual
buckshot hits) to 30d6 (5.1cm fusion rifle or FGMP-15).

If a 9mm Magnum Revolver (damage of 4d6) were to strike someone
wearing, say, Combat Armour (with an Armour Resistance of "4+"), each
damage die rolled that generated a result equal to or greater than
"4+" would be totally ignored (eg: a roll of 1,2,4,5 would inflict
only 1+2=3D3 points of damage).

If the same weapon were used against someone wearing either Ballistic
Cloth or Ballistic Weave, each damage die rolled that generated a
result equal to or greater than "5+" would be totally ignored (eg: a
roll of 1,2,4,5 would inflict only 1+2+4=3D7 points of damage.

=46inally, if the magnum were used against someone wearing Flak
(remember, this was based on CT), each damage die rolled that produced
a "6" would be totally ignored (eg: the same roll of 1,2,4,5 would
inflict full damage).

My system was originally based on the idea the armour would subtract a
number between 0 and 6 from each six-sided damage die rolled in the
attack.  This was superior to the current system but proved to involve
too much math during playtesting.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 14:22:25 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Is it the Task System?

> 	That being said, there is the fact that someone with a natural talent
> does have an advantage.  To my mind the task system isn't broken, if someone
> does have a Dex or Int or whatever of 15 they Should be able to pull SOME of
> the things a normal professional can do.  BUT, not everything, come on folks
> the Ref's gotta step in at some point.  I don't care if the character has an
> Int of 15 and Medical of 0, they're not qualified to do brain surgery!
> 	I suggest the problem lies not in the Task System but in the Character
> Generation System which allows for such generous increases in the Stats to be
> made in the first place. ;)

Hello, Stephen.

I agree with your post.  One things that I do to curb the CharGen 
system--and its also the system that I've always used for 
Traveller--is to be very strict in the process.

I don't let the players roll six times and arrange for initial stats, 
and I don't allow them various rolls like roll three times and keep 
one as you stat.

What I do is brutal, but it helps to put some balance in the game.  I 
give each player only one shot at rolling each of his character's 
stats.  That's it, just one try at Str, one try at Dex, etc.

If they want to increase what they've rolled during CharGen, then 
they need to pick a table (I allow them to pick a table to roll on 
like in the old CT) to roll on at the expense of rolling on a table 
that would give them a skill increase.  You usually have a physical 
table in CharGen where you can increase certain stats.

This all seems to mesh together and produce more balanced characters. 
 GMs that complain that their player's characters having skills that 
are too high have no right to complain if they allow players to pick 
a table and pick from that table.  They gave the players that much 
freedom in CharGen, and they should live with the consequences.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 14:22:24 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: re: Blunt Trama Damage

> I have been looking over this thread and have been thinking.
> Blunt trama should be applied only when the round DOES NOT penetrate. 
> Think about it.  Your wearing a diplo vest(av=3) and you get hit by a
> revolver slug(dv=2).  the round does not penetrate, but you still feel
> the "whomp" of the slug.  2 points blunt trama.  You take a 6d rifle
> shot, the round is going to penetrate, but the velocity is slowed down
> reducing from 6dice to 3dice, but as the shot rips trough your vest and
> into you, there will be no "whomp", no blunt at all, so ignore it.

I think the "whomp" is on your chest when you are hit.

If you do it this way, you get in a situation where having armor will 
increase your chance of being damaged.  That's what we were trying to 
fix with the blunt trauma rule.

If you are hit with a 4D6 gun while wearing AV3 flexible armor, under 
your system, you'd take 1 D6 of damage.

But then again, lets say, wearing the same armor, you are hit with a 
3 D6 round.  Under your system, the character would take a solid 3 
points of damage.  

In many cases, that 3 points will be more damage than what you would 
have taken if the round had penetrated.

> Take it from someone with personal experience in wounds, blunt trama
> makes bruises, but penetration friggin hurts! :)

Which your explanation doesn't support, given my example above.

If you don't really like my basic blunt trauma fix, try Glenn Grant's 
or Mike Sellers' more advanced fixes.  Both of those are good ideas.

Thanks, Commander X,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 14:59:37 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness

On 03/02/97 at 11:33 AM,  Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com> said:

> We British arn't always proud of our history, for instance it was us who
> invented concentration camps against the Boer's not the Germans against
> the Jews, they just picked up on a bad idea and then expanded it.

Not to let you Brits off the hook or anything, but I don't think you can be
blamed for the *invention* of the concentration camp.  You refined it's use
during the Boer War, but concentrating your
opponents dependents had been going on forever.

During nineteenth century the Spanish held women and children
hostage in Cuba and the Philippines to "discourage" their men-folk from
engaging in guerrilla activities.  The US had been doing the same thing to
the Seminoles in Florida, and frankly that's what "indian reservations"
really were.  Centuries earlier the Romans did the same sort of thing, too. 


Armies have been using threats to civilians against their opponents for as
long as there have been armies.  Sometimes they are honest, and call them
hostages, but most of the time they say they are doing it "to protect
them."

I'd say there's enough "nastiness" to go around.  


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 13:57:45 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: "Professional" skill levels.

During the recent task debate, many people made a point about Traveller
stating that anyone with Medical-3 being a doctor.  As someone who has had
far to much contact with the medical world recently, may I point out that
there is much more to being a doctor than simple medical knowledge.

Personaly, I'd shy away from calling any PC a doctor unless he had, in
addition to Med-3, skills in Biology, Chemistry, and Research.  From my own
experiences, these skill are what seperates doctors from other medical
professionals, such as nurses and EMTs.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 14:03:56 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Relativistic travel (was Re: Focus of the List)

>Could we take all the discussions of politics, movies and whether 
>Commander Ivonava or BS:G's Aethena would make a better love mat off 
>line? Discussing relativistic rocks for the umteenth time is less tedious 
>than some of this stuff!

Okay, okay.  Sheesh.

How about relativistic travel in-system?  For example, if I wanted to have
Our Heros travel from, say, Earth to Pluto without using some sort of
microjumps, how fast (their perceived time) could they get there without
noticeable relativistic effects?  I have the Lorenz transformation around
here somewhere, but haven't dug it out.

Anyone ever done this in the context of Traveller?


BTW, just to be off-topic, you _know_ the reason Apollo cried in so many
BS:G episodes is because whats-her-name played by Jane Seymour had gotten
vaporized. :)


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 14:09:00 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Rifle page is finally up

I finally had time to finish doing the rifle page for my web site...  Check
it out, and let me know what you think.

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/rifle.html

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 15:51:03 -0700 (MST)
From: scharlto@rtd.com (Steve Charlton)
Subject: THUDD Competition - Aurelian Industries Entry

>In response to the recent Imperial RFP, "Armed Paramilitary Transport
>(Light)", Aurelian Industries submits the following tender:
>
>Gladius-class Light Paramilitary Transport
>This vessel is designed to transport a small force (up to 45 troops) into a
>potentially-hostile landing zone, either directly or via the carried 30-ton
>Ship's Boat.  The vessel is armed with an array of missile and laser
>weapons, allowing the ship to support a landing operation, defend a landing
>zone from approaching ground or aerospace forces, or even destroy light to
>moderate space defenses.  This vessel is also quite suitable as a
>exploration ship, allowing a group of trained scouts or observers to get
>into a dangerous area without needless risk.
>
>The Gladius features a 10-ton spacious hangar deck for any vehicles used by
>the platoon, which doubles as a centralized meeting room for the troops and
>crew.  There is also a machine shop to aid in the repair of the unit's
>vehicles, weapons or equipment after action, as well as a fully-equipped
>2-bed sickbay.  There are also five low berths to aid in getting seriously
>wounded troops to a proper hospital, or for securely transporting important
>prisoners.  In addition, there is more than 11 tons of cargo space
>available for carrying additional supplies.  To aid in long-range
>expeditions, the ship is equipped with fuel scoops, and carries an on-board
>fuel purifier capable of processing 10 tons of fuel per hour, enough to
>fully process the total fuel allotment (jump and power plant) in about 13
>hours.
>
>Tons:  600 Std SL Slab   Volume:8400 M3        Cost: 414.288
>Crew:  25 (74)           High/Mid Psg: 0       Low:  5
>Cargo: 11                Controls: Fib/Bridge  TL:   12
>8 Size                             2 Jump (120 tons fuel, 2pc)
>                                   2 Maneuver (Thrusters, 308MW)
>2x Laser Battery(+4)1/4-4-3-2      3 Power (5x 200MW)
>4x Missile Barb (+4) 20/16         131 Fuel (Scoop, Refine 10)
>  w/20 missiles (per user)         0 Meson Screen
>                                   3 Sandcasters (30 each)
>                                   2 Nuclear Damper (15 MW Each)
>                                   A10P4J10 Sensors TL12
>                                   10 Armor  15 Structure
>
>Crew and Berthing Details:
>3 Engineering, 2 Electronic, 2 Maneuver, 6 Gunnery, 5 Screens, 1 Small
>Craft Crew, 40 troops, 10 Command (3 without troops), 4 Stewards (2 without
>troops), 1 Medical.  There are 40 bunks for the troops, 10 small staterooms
>for the Command Crew, and 12 Large Staterooms for the rest of the crew
>(double occupancy).  There is a Vehicle Shop, a Sickbay and a 10-ton
>Spacious Hangar for vehicles.  There is a streamlined 30-ton grapple for
>the Ship's Boat.
>
>Please address all questions and correspondence regarding this vessel (and
>other Aurelian Industries products) to
>
>Linus Ishigli, MarCom Director
>Aurelian Industries
>Aurelian, Capital, Core
>scharlto@avalon.com (weekday)
>scharlto@rtd.com (weekend)
>
>
>
>
>Also presented for comparison are the other two Paramilitary Starships
>available from Aurelian Industries.  While these are generally out of the
>price range of most start-up mercenary companies, they are very popular
>with some of the more well-established organizations,and even with some
>smaller new members of the Imperium looking to build up a military capacity
>beyond their planetary defense forces.
>
>
>Claymore-class Medium Paramilitary Transport
>This vessel, like the Gladius, is designed to transport a small force (up
>to 50 troops) into a potentially-hostile landing zone, either directly or
>via the carried 50-ton Cutter.  This ship is a larger and upgunned version
>of the Gladius, with an upgraded sensor suite and twice the firepower of
>the Gladius.
>
>The Claymore features a 20-ton spacious hangar deck for any vehicles used
>by the platoon, which doubles as a centralized meeting room for the troops
>and crew.  There is also a machine shop to aid in the repair of the unit's
>vehicles, weapons or equipment after action, as well as a fully-equipped
>2-bed sickbay.  There are also five low berths to aid in getting seriously
>wounded troops to a proper hospital, or for securely transporting important
>prisoners.  In addition, there is more than 10 tons of cargo space
>available for carrying additional supplies.  To aid in long-range
>expeditions, the ship is equipped with fuel scoops, and carries an on-board
>fuel purifier capable of processing 10 tons of fuel per hour, enough to
>fully process the total fuel allotment (jump and power plant) in about 22
>hours.
>
>Tons:  1000 Std SL Slab  Volume:14000 M3       Cost: 797.796
>Crew:  41 (101)          High/Mid Psg: 0       Low:  5
>Cargo: 15                Controls: Fib/Bridge  TL:   12
>9 Size                             2 Jump (200 tons fuel, 2pc)
>                                   3 Maneuver (Thrusters, 756Mw)
>4x Laser Battery(+4)1/4-4-3-2      4 Power (11x 200MW)
>8x Missile Barb (+4) 40/32         223 Fuel (Scoop, Refine 10)
>  w/40 missiles (per user)         0 Meson Screen
>                                   6 Sandcasters (30 each)
>                                   4 Nuclear Damper (15 MW Each)
>                                   A16P5J16 Sensors TL12
>                                   10 Armor  18 Structure
>
>Crew and Berthing Details:
>5 Engineering, 2 Maneuver, 2 Electronics, 12 Gunnery, 10 Screens, 1 Small
>Craft Crew, 50 troops, 14 Command (6 without troops), 4 Stewards (2 without
>troops), 1 Medical.  There are 50 bunks for the troops, 15 small staterooms
>for the Command Crew and Medic, and 18 Large Staterooms for the rest of the
>crew (double occupancy).  There is a Vehicle Shop, a Sickbay and a 20-ton
>Spacious Hangar for vehicles.  There is a streamlined 50-ton grapple for
>the Cutter.
>
>
>Lochaber-class Heavy Paramilitary Transport
>Designed for the large corporate security force or small government, the
>Lochaber is the powerhouse of the Paramilitary Transport line.  Displacing
>three times the volume of the Claymore, the Lochaber's armament is
>proportionally greater, and features a high-powered Particle Accelerator
>gun.  This vessel is designed to transport a reinforced company of 200
>troops, either directly or via its four carried 50-ton Cutters.  While
>larger and more heavily armored than its small cousins, the Lochaber is
>equipped with the latest in Sylean thruster technology, allowing it to
>reach the same speeds as the other vessels.
>
>The Lochaber features a 50-ton spacious hangar deck for any vehicles used
>by the unit, which doubles as a centralized meeting room for the troops and
>crew.  There are also two machine shops to aid in the repair of the unit's
>vehicles, weapons or equipment after action, as well as a fully-equipped
>4-bed sickbay.  There are also ten low berths to aid in getting seriously
>wounded troops to a proper hospital, or for securely transporting important
>prisoners.  In addition, there is more than 200 tons of cargo space
>available for carrying additional supplies.  To aid in long-range
>expeditions, the ship is equipped with fuel scoops, and carries an on-board
>fuel purifier capable of processing 50 tons of fuel per hour, enough to
>fully process the total fuel allotment (jump and power plant) in about 14
>hours.
>
>Tons:  3000 Std SL Slab  Volume:42000 M3       Cost: 1925.169
>Crew:  80 (321)          High/Mid Psg: 0       Low:  10
>Cargo: 186               Controls: Fib/Bridge  TL:   12
>9 Size                             2 Jump (600 tons fuel, 2pc)
>                                   3 Maneuver (Thrusters, 2254Mw)
>4x Laser Battery(+4)1/8-7-4-3      5 Power (10x 750MW)
>10x Missile Barb (+4) 50/40        680 Fuel (Scoop, Refine 50)
>  w/50 missiles (per user)         0 Meson Screen
>                                   12 Sandcasters (30 each)
>                                   8 Nuclear Damper (15 MW Each)
>                                   A16P5J16 Sensors TL12
>                                   20 Armor  28 Structure
>
>Crew and Berthing Details:
>14 Engineering, 2 Maneuver, 2 Electronics, 16 Gunnery, 20 Screens, 8 Small
>Craft Crew, 200 troops, 44 Command (11 without troops), 12 Stewards (4
>without troops), 3 Medical.  There are 200 bunks for the troops, 45 small
>staterooms for the Command Crew, and 40 Large Staterooms for the rest of
>the crew (double occupancy).  There are 2 Vehicle Shops, 2 Sickbays and a
>50-ton Spacious Hangar for vehicles.  There are 4 streamlined 50-ton
>grapple for the 4 Cutters.
>
>
>
>
Steven T. Charlton
scharlto@rtd.com 
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1014
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1015



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Newbie (but T4)
Distributors
Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
Imperium Games' Web Newsletter
Re: Mileau 0 data
THUDDD Vague Pronouncement-like Thingie...
Re: Beyond the pylons
Re: even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)
Re: ID4 and Americans
Traveller Trivia 
Off-topic discussions
Re: "Professional" skill levels.
Re: Imperium Games' Web Newsletter
Re: Distributors
Re: Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!
Re: Focus of the List
Re: Old foggies quiz

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 00:00:00 +0200
From: n.violet@krypta.aball.de (Norman Violet)
Subject: Re: Newbie (but T4)

Hello Kenneth!

d>I'm using T4--but my campaign is set in the CT 1100's era.  And, I
d>still use a lot of CT items--rules and background.

d>T4 is very compatible with CT.  In fact, T4 is just a modernization
d>of CT, the same way MT was a modernization of the original game.
d>TNE, of course, was almost an entirely new system.

Ah, that sounds fine. Do you think it is a good idea to buy T4? I read all  
those discussions here, but I think it's too much comparing to MT and TNE in  
it to understand it (now).
By the way: I haven't carefully looked for MT, TNE or T4, but I found  
nothing. I hope IG has translated and shipped these to Germany also <g>.

d>I find it easier to use T4 as my core rules set, but I don't hesitate
d>to use CT or MT when I have a particular topic not yet covered in T4
d>rules.

That's one of my fears: I purchase a newer edition of Traveller and ... find  
other lacking features and new inconsistencies.

Example: What about learning of new skills and skill levels?

Learning (in CT) was quite difficult (and very time expensive), and  
nevertheless there was the skill level maximum (INT + EDU).

d>Example--there is no Shotgun group hits rule in the T4 basic rules,
d>so I'm using the one from CT.

As I like the concepts and ideas in Traveller so I hate these things ...

Is there a kind of index in T4 to find specific rules faster?

d>Keep in mind that T4 is in its infancy.  The main book is meant to be
d>a basic book.  Other supplements will add more detail to the rules
d>system as the game grows just like Book 4 (and others) did to the
d>first three books of CT.

Oh? I never had seen a Book 4 (which name?). I own Book 1 to 3, a imperial  
atlas and a adventure, that's all.

What's covered in this and what do you expect: How many add-on books one had  
to buy to have all important rules? (Last but not least it's a question of  
money to me)

d>As for my Shotgun rule, Greg Porter told me that a Shotgun rule would
d>be covered in the Emperor's Arsenal due out in a month or so.

Plus shipping and translating time for me <g> (Of course I understand  
english, maybe far more better than writing on my own, but it's still a  
difference, so I like to have it in german - except, when it's very  
expensive compared to the english books (in Germany books are expensive!)).


Thank you for answering my mail,
bye

Norman



d>My suggestion?  Change the title of your post to:
d>
d>		Newbie (but T4)

? Perhaps now my lesser english skill strikes back? I meant 'new to the game  
and new here in the TML, but clinging to the classic rules'.


greetinx, Norman

email n.violet@krypta.snafu.de

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 00:00:00 +0200
From: n.violet@krypta.aball.de (Norman Violet)
Subject: Distributors

Hello traveller !

Because of my long absence (to other realms of fantasy), two short  
questions:

(Classic) Traveller was sold by Gamer's Workshop Designers and today  
Imperium Games sells T4, is that right?

Can someone give me an email address of someone (from Imperium Games?) who  
can answer the following question? Who is the publisher of T4 in germany?  
(like Fantasy Produktion, Duesseldorf was it for CT). (I asked altavista and  
similar things but I didn't found anything that has to do with publishing  
Traveller articles in germany.)




 
Bye,
Norman
 
(Mfg, man liest sich wieder, Gruss an die/den Freundin/Freund...)
 
Random-Cookie:
If you eat yogurt you'll have lots of culture.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 17:10:28 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

> I created something similar along these lines shortly after TNE came
> out, but before T4.  
> My system was originally based on the idea the armour would subtract a
> number between 0 and 6 from each six-sided damage die rolled in the
> attack.  This was superior to the current system but proved to involve
> too much math during playtesting.

James, I understand that the Emperor's Arsenal is bringing back 
penetration stats for weapons.  I'm not a hundred percent on this, 
but if it is in the EA, this might give us some additional ideas on 
this or even solve the problem for us (if you don't like the ideas 
that have been posted so far.).

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 23:51:38 GMT
From: Eamon Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Imperium Games' Web Newsletter

I got this through e-mail today, and once again it has dented my 
loyalty to IG. I hope people don't mind me repeating whole sections 
of the newsletter, but I needed to keep the context of my comments 
right:

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>1.      CITIZENS OF THE IMPERIUM
>        Details of CITIZENS OF THE IMPERIUM will be announced in the
>        next week.  The service will be activated shortly after that.

About time! Will our purported 10 percent discount on all T4 products 
be on top of other discounts - or will CotI be another waste of money?

>2.      SHIPPING CHARGES LOWERED!
>        Shipping charges for orders in the USA, and Canada have been
>        completely eliminated.  International orders have been 
>              lowered to 5.00 dollars.

I'm not going to buy any more of your stuff on spec, I'll wait for the 
list to advise me about the sensibility of buying a given product.

>7.      THE DELUXE EDITION RULEBOOK
>        The release date of the Deluxe Edition will be announced in  
>         two weeks.  We're currently sizing the print run, as only   
>          enough will be printed to fill the Internet Pre-Orders.  We 
>          appreciate the feedback from the customers.  Even If you've 
>          sent us an email   that you would like this product, now is 
>          the time to point your browser to our online order page and 
>          send your order.  We need your orders NOW to guarantee your 
>          copy.
               
Sign up for a product before seeing it - are we getting that thick? Is 
that what you think we are?

>8.      NO DELUXE EDITION SOFTCOVER
>        There have been inquiries about a softcover of the Deluxe
>        Edition.  There will be no softcover version of the Deluxe
>        Edition.

If this deluxe edition is such an improvement on the T4 rulebook why 
arn't you bringing it out in softback and distrubuting it???



>11.     6 MONTH PRE-ORDER
>        The Pre-Order plan is swinging into action!  We're updating  
>         the order form to include this option.  When you sign up you 
>         will automatically get every Feature and Supplement (not    
>          including the JTAS) before they're made available in the   
>      stores.
>
>        The Pre-Order plan also saves you money in two ways.  Your
>        credit card will only be charged for each item as it is      
>      shipped, so you don't have a big lump sum to pay up front.  
>       In addition, subscribers will get each product at an 
>       ADDITIONAL DISCOUNT!
>
>        List Price            Pre-Order Price         You Save!
>          29.95                 26.95                  3.00
>          22.95                 20.00                  2.95
>          12.95                 11.00                  1.95
>
>        If you sign up for the Internet Pre-Order plan prior to March 
>        15, you will get a special free mini-adventure by Marc 
>        Miller, which will only be available to those Pre-Order 
>        Subscribers who sign up before March 15, 1997.
        
Sod your discount! If you cared about the people you've dissapointed 
with your shoddy work on T4 you'd put this free mini-adventure on your 
website! (This is in relation to IG BTW, not Marc Miller)

I've bought almost all the T4 books so far, excepting Starships, and 
that was because I had a chance to look at it beforehand. I've just 
shelled out  33 pounds (about 50 dollars) for First Survey and Milleau 
0 from a local mail order shop, in order to keep them stocking T4. I'm 
fed up.

IG has rewarded my loyalty to Traveller by screwing me again and again 
- - they'd better get their act together damn fast, and start treating 
Traveller fans with respect or they're heading nowhere, and maybe 
that's where they should head. They're on 'strike 2' with me, they'd 
better not reach 'strike 3'.

I hate to sign off in caps but -

STOP SCREWING YOUR CUSTOMERS!!! APOLOGISE FOR THE SHIT YOU'VE PUT US 
THROUGH!!!!!

Eamon, a polite chap pushed too far.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 17:57:34 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Mileau 0 data

SirBStard@aol.com wrote:
>
>      This looks to me like the Chanestin got pasted. Cleon and the troops
> probably faced some determined resistance so they flattened everything.
>  Note- No Government and No Law with only a few people left. Those that were
> able probably left the devestated Keshi. The low tech level would also be
> accounted for by large scale destruction. Bombed them back to the seventies;
> oh no not pastel green disco shirts, this could be *worse* then the stone
> age. :)

Let me guess; their new planetary anthem is an old Solomani song
called "Stayin' Alive".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:00:21 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: THUDDD Vague Pronouncement-like Thingie...

	OK... everyone, given that someone signing his post "Pestilence"
(yeek) has posted the FF&S definitions of docking rings, external grapples,
etc, read them and govern yourselves accordingly.  People voting are free
to be merciless to anyone misusing them.

	Secondly: with regards to posting designs to the list: all fine and
dandy, but if you don't send them to me I won't collate them and repost
them for the judging process.  So, all of you who have been posting to the
list, resend them to me at <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 19:02:41 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Beyond the pylons

Someone wrote
> 
> >> No, they just thwew them woughly to the fwoor.
> >>
> >> Wewease Bwian!
> >
> >ROFL! (It's twue, it's twue!)

WOFWOW
(Wowwing on the Fwoor, Waughing out Woud)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 19:08:41 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> And everybody was right, the US remained independent, trade resumed between
> the US and Europe, the British cut back on support for the Indian Nations
> in our south and midwest, and Canada stayed a British Colony..just what
> everybody wanted.  Everybody except the Indian Nations, that is.

There was an attempt to free Canada from the British yoke: the Mackenzie-Papineau 
Rebellion, but it was alas quashed by the forces of tyranny

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 19:15:38 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

K.C. Komosky wrote: 
>York (aka Toronto, aka the asshole of Canada) was the capitol of Upper (not lower) 

TO is not the asshole of Canada. It just acts like one. Winnipeg on the other hand...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 18:26:08 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Subject: Traveller Trivia 

Heres some assorted Traveller Trivia

from the cover of Fifth Frontier Wars:
Look at the kill markings on the nearest fighter. 

From Book 9: Fighting Ships
take the picture of the Tigris class DN
what does it remind you of when you paint it bright yellow

From Murder on Arcturus Station or Research Station Gamma
the safe combination holds a special significance, what is it?

from TNE: Various Places
where does the name Mary Ellen Carter come from?

answers and more oddities later

The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:59:28 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Off-topic discussions

>Folks this is the Traveller Mailing List. Not the Blackmoor List. Or the
>History of RPG List. Or the ID4 List. Or the Babylon Five List. Or the
>I'm Damn Proud to be American/I Hate All Americans Lists!
>
>Can we please get back to the subject of the list? Traveller? I mean it's
>fine if we discuss Star Wars or Babylon Five or Starship Troopers--as it
>relates to Traveller. But all the Blackmoor, ID4 and discussions of the
>"...rockets red glare..." is making the CONSIM list (which is infamous
>for topic drift) look like it really sticks to the topic of conflict
>simulation games.

So, explain to me how Babylon 5 is related to Traveller? or Star Wars?
Oh, they fit under the heading "science-fiction". A broad category, but it
works. Of course, the category "roleplaying games" also includes Traveller,
as well as Blackmoor and even the general history of the hobby. Seems to me
to be an equally broad category.

ID4 stretches that category a bit, and the exchanges between our German
members and the Americans who chose to reply to them are completely
unrelated. I agree with you about those. Especially where they get insulting.

All threads die eventually. yes, even the extremely tedious but unarguably
Traveller-related Task System thread will one day be history. Some of these
threads started as a way of getting AWAY from that topic.

I myself see NOTHING Traveller related about lists of why Vader would kick
Q's butt or whatever the Star Wars/Star Trek thread is this time around. But
it happens, and no one complains about that. SOMETIMES, we talk to each
other just to find out what each other is like. I can accept that. I think
you will probably have to, too.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 18:34:06 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: "Professional" skill levels.

 
> During the recent task debate, many people made a point about Traveller
> stating that anyone with Medical-3 being a doctor.  As someone who has had
> far to much contact with the medical world recently, may I point out that
> there is much more to being a doctor than simple medical knowledge.
 
True enough.  Lots of stuff ends up being what you've done before,
not what inherit ability you have (true in any field in my
experience).  If you never saw a given proceedure, or haven't
studied it you would be skating on thin ice.

> Personaly, I'd shy away from calling any PC a doctor unless he had, in
> addition to Med-3, skills in Biology, Chemistry, and Research.  From my own
> experiences, these skill are what seperates doctors from other medical
> professionals, such as nurses and EMTs.
 
Well, various traveller rules have called med-3 a doctor, but there
were also physician carrers.  If they didn't do med school as a
career, I wouldn't call 'em a doctor.  I would suggest a grouping of
medical skills so that medic (EMT), nursing, medicine, and surgery
were separate since to do otherwise would be like having a
"Spaceship" skill instead of engineering, pilot, etc. (or every
little sub-type of firearm, for that matter).

You might allow medics and nurses to get Medicine and Surgery
skills, but only to level 2 under any normal circumstances.  That
way you could get a sugical nurse who is forced to try something
beyond his training in a pinch (he's seen it before, even helped
many times, so he knows what's going on).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:03:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games' Web Newsletter

On Sun, 2 Mar 1997, Eamon Watters wrote:

> >1.      CITIZENS OF THE IMPERIUM
> >        Details of CITIZENS OF THE IMPERIUM will be announced in the
> >        next week.  The service will be activated shortly after that.
> 
> About time! Will our purported 10 percent discount on all T4 products 
> be on top of other discounts - or will CotI be another waste of money?

Hi Eamon,

I'll try to get an answer to the above for you tomorrow.  I'll answer the 
rest as best as I can right now.


> >2.      SHIPPING CHARGES LOWERED!
> >        Shipping charges for orders in the USA, and Canada have been
> >        completely eliminated.  International orders have been 
> >              lowered to 5.00 dollars.
> 
> I'm not going to buy any more of your stuff on spec, I'll wait for the 
> list to advise me about the sensibility of buying a given product.

Hmmm.  I don't see the relation between your statement and the decreased 
shipping charges.  We told IG, loud and clear, that their shipping 
charges were too high.  So they eliminated the shipping charges to the US 
and Canada, and decreased the charges by 50% to all other nations. I see 
nothing to be upset about in this regard.


> >7.      THE DELUXE EDITION RULEBOOK
> >        The release date of the Deluxe Edition will be announced in  
> >         two weeks.  We're currently sizing the print run, as only   
> >          enough will be printed to fill the Internet Pre-Orders.  We 
> >          appreciate the feedback from the customers.  Even If you've 
> >          sent us an email   that you would like this product, now is 
> >          the time to point your browser to our online order page and 
> >          send your order.  We need your orders NOW to guarantee your 
> >          copy.
>                
> Sign up for a product before seeing it - are we getting that thick? Is 
> that what you think we are?

Believe it or not, there are some folks who will buy anything with the 
word "Traveller" on it.  Also, some of us believe IG has cleaned up their 
act, and the product quality is improving.  For that sort of person, 
committing to the purchase of products in advance of their release is not 
onerous.  As a reward, IG is offering a discount for doing so in the case 
of pre-ordering 6 (if I recall correctly) products in advance.  In the 
case of T4 Deluxe, they really haven't a better way to judge demand than 
to ask for firm commitments (read: orders) from customers, since it is 
internet-only.  Finally, in the case of T4 deluxe, we have a good idea 
what we'll be getting.  It will be T4, edited better, and with errata 
fixes by Marc Miller (i.e., the task system he's been discussing on the 
list).  I don't think their asking for pre-orders of T4 is an unreasonble 
step, given the circumstances.

But, in the end, it is an individual decision.  If you are uncomfortable 
with placing pre-orders at this time, that's OK.  Perhaps, in time, IG 
will win your confidence.


> >8.      NO DELUXE EDITION SOFTCOVER
> >        There have been inquiries about a softcover of the Deluxe
> >        Edition.  There will be no softcover version of the Deluxe
> >        Edition.
> 
> If this deluxe edition is such an improvement on the T4 rulebook why 
> arn't you bringing it out in softback and distrubuting it???

As I understand it, this is a product only for the internet community 
(much like BTRC's Guns, Guns, Guns hardcover, which was also 
internet-only).  At some point in the future, IG will release a 
bug-squashed edition of T4 (softback, hardback, I don't know which at 
this point) to the general public, and it will be called "Marc 
Miller's Traveller."  This internet version will be "Deluxe Edition" - we 
get it sooner than anyone else, and it is a small print run, so the 
collectability is increased.

Again, this is as I understand it at this point - I'll try to find out 
more tomorrow.

[snipped extended quote]
> >        If you sign up for the Internet Pre-Order plan prior to March 
> >        15, you will get a special free mini-adventure by Marc 
> >        Miller, which will only be available to those Pre-Order 
> >        Subscribers who sign up before March 15, 1997.
>         
> Sod your discount! If you cared about the people you've dissapointed 
> with your shoddy work on T4 you'd put this free mini-adventure on your 
> website! (This is in relation to IG BTW, not Marc Miller)

IG does care about its customers.  That is why they have solicited our 
criticisms, that is why they have taken those criticisms to heart and 
changed their policies, and planned to make huge changes in the next 
printing of Starships.  That's why Marc is fixing T4's task system.  They 
don't seem to be behaving irresponsibly.

They're trying to make up for the errors brought about by the previous 
management.


> I've bought almost all the T4 books so far, excepting Starships, and 
> that was because I had a chance to look at it beforehand. I've just 
> shelled out  33 pounds (about 50 dollars) for First Survey and Milleau 
> 0 from a local mail order shop, in order to keep them stocking T4. I'm 
> fed up.
> 
> IG has rewarded my loyalty to Traveller by screwing me again and again 
> - they'd better get their act together damn fast, and start treating 
> Traveller fans with respect or they're heading nowhere, and maybe 
> that's where they should head. They're on 'strike 2' with me, they'd 
> better not reach 'strike 3'.

I hate to see that you feel you've been shoddily treated by IG.  The 
folks that put together the shoddy products are no longer associated with 
Traveller.  IG has offered special discounts and special offers to 
the internet community.  IG has changed their shipping costs policy.  
They're changing the things that we don't like about T4.  They're 
bringing in new editors, typsetters, graphic designers - all as WE 
requested.  Heck, they even have some new designers working on products 
for them.

To me, that constitutes a good faith effort, showing that they care about 
their customers.

It's obvious you feel differently.  I hope IG can someday win you back as 
a customer.


> I hate to sign off in caps but -
> 
> STOP SCREWING YOUR CUSTOMERS!!! APOLOGISE FOR THE SHIT YOU'VE PUT US 
> THROUGH!!!!!
> 
> Eamon, a polite chap pushed too far.


Thanks for listening,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:27:58 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Distributors

In a message dated 97-03-02 19:13:52 EST, you write:

> 
>  Can someone give me an email address of someone (from Imperium Games?) who
 
>  can answer the following question? Who is the publisher of T4 in germany?
 
>  (like Fantasy Produktion, Duesseldorf was it for CT). (I asked altavista
and 
>  
>  similar things but I didn't found anything that has to do with publishing
 
>  Traveller articles in germany.)
>  
>  
>  
>  
There is not yet a publisher of T4 in German. Do you mean a distributor in
Germany?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 22:43:11 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!

Eris Reddoch, one of the dreaded Four Horseman of the Traveller Heretics
writes: 

> > >   Iceberg, heck this is ICEFIELD lettuce. Maybe the have one heck of a 
> > >large hydroponics facility.
>
> >    Still doesn't fly Keith.  Any planet orbiting around a M9d is going to
> > be so cold that it wouldn't have a type 4-9 atmosphere. 
>
>To make this one fly, you have to resort to some creative
>planetology.  <G> Hum, let's see...SHORTS is an Earth sized moon orbiting a
>Brown Dwarf in orbit 0 of the M9d.  The dwarf and the star still don't
>supply enough heat for the moon, but the interaction of tidal forces keeps
>the moon's core hot..hot enough to maintain an atmosphere, a dense CO2 rich
>atmosphere, through volcanism...and the shear perversity of Gaia.  

   Still doesn't work.  How did that brown dwarf get into orbit 0?  The
M9 white dwarf was at some point in its history a red giant (that is the
way most stars evolve--proto star to main sequence to red giant to white
dwarf), and during that phase of the star's life, orbit 0 would have
been inside the star, thus the brown dwarf would have been vaporized,
along with its moon.

   Now you could argue that the brown dwarf and the moon formed *after*
the red giant phase, from debris left over out of the planetary nebula
transition from red giant to white dwarf (there is some evidence to
suggest that planetary formation is possible during that time as
evidenced by the detection of a gas giant/brown dwarf circling a pulsar
found last year), but I don't think you're going to get any one to buy
off on a brown dwarf forming so close to the collapsing star.

   If Shorts exists at all, it would be as a moon of a brown dwarf that
circles an M9 *main sequence star* in orbit 0.  Planetary technonics
alone would be insufficent to keep the planet warm with fluid water
oceans and a breathable atmosphere.  No, much of Shorts would be covered
with a vast icefield, and the atmosphere above the icefields would be
very thin (trace in Traveller terms) and consist mostly of oxygen (from
the disassociation of water molecules), and perhaps some methane, carbon
dioxide, and smaller amounts of other components.

   So how could Shorts still be rated as Agricultural?  It's a stretch
(since it is so much easier and *cheaper* to grow things on a more
Earth-like world), but let's assume that while the surface of Shorts is
a frozen, barren, nearly airless wasteland, underneath the icefields is
another entirely different world.  Vulcanism provides enough heat to
create vast lakes and even an ocean or two of liquid water underneath
the frozen icefields.  As an experiment many years ago, Imperial
engineers drilled a number of tunnels through the ice, and created
pockets filled air in several locations between the liquid oceans and
the frozen icefields.  Later, floating colonies were established in the
pockets, and methods for recycling the air the colonists was breathing
were established.  The "Shortsean" colonial government soon became
reknown as being one of the most just and democratic in the Universe (or
"Shorts becomes reknown as a place you can obtain a new identity and
start over if you have criminal trouble on other worlds", or "The
floating habitats on Shorts were taken over by the Imperial government
and turned into a penal colony", etc.).  Many more colonists came in
(were brought in) over the years, and the population grew.  Light for
the colonies is provided by vast banks of (fill in your favorite
artifical light source here), and there is enough light and geothermal
heat that it is possible to grow a variety of hydroponic crops.  These
have been genetically engineered to thrive in the cold (temps outside
the climate controlled floating colonies aren't exactly like the rain
forests of Brazil--too much heat and the air pockets could be
compromised), artifically lit conditions.  Because of a combination of
materials in the native water, (fill in your favorite vegetable here)
grows particularly well, and much of the annual crop is exported to
other worlds.

   The above explanation still doesn't work for the world listed in
First Survey though.  That's why I say it would be much easier to just
change the star and keep the main world stats and descriptions "as is".

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 23:02:52 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

Frederick Paul Kiesche III writes: 

>Folks this is the Traveller Mailing List. Not the Blackmoor List. Or the 
>History of RPG List. Or the ID4 List. Or the Babylon Five List. Or the 
>I'm Damn Proud to be American/I Hate All Americans Lists!

   Those topics (and many, many others) invariably come up as someone
makes a reference to something outside the realm of the game for
comparison sake.

>Can we please get back to the subject of the list? Traveller?

   I've been working back toward that...

>Could we take all the discussions of politics, movies and whether 
>Commander Ivonava or BS:G's Aethena would make a better love mat off 
>line? 

   Certainly, since Athena beats Ivanova so badly in that department,
there should be no discussion.  Oh I suppose if you like an **older**
woman who has latent telepathic abilities (potentially being able to
read your mind), Ivanova's for you, but Athena is the clearly the
superior mate.

>Discussing relativistic rocks for the umteenth time is less tedious 
>than some of this stuff!

   Discussing the combination on Strephon's personal safe at the
Imperial Palace is more stimulating than relativistic rocks.  Problem
is, there are no true babes in Traveller (characters, not players). 
There was the "Lady In Black" on the cover of TNE, but she turned out to
merely be a psionic projection.  Shoshanna Dahnara-Avila from Children
of Earth vaugely resembles a 40-something Phoebe Cates, but unless you
have been following events in Traveller Chronicle, you won't know about
her either.  No, I fear that the Traveller universe is in general a
truly male dominated culture where the women are only mildly attractive
and stay out of the way.  No wonder Norris was AC only.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 23:33:20 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Old foggies quiz

My LBBs are copyright 1977 with no reprint data so I assume they're of the
first decanting.  They say 3D+3 (from the back of vol. 1)  

I'm one of those who moved on to MT, then to TNE, and now to T4, all without
looking back (very much).  Going through the 1977 vols these last couple of
days really brought back some memories - old ones!

- - Bill

<cut...)
>
><< >What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?
>Don't know...The Traveller Book has it as 3D. >>
>
<more cut...>

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1015
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1016



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Focus of the List
Re: Beyond the pylons
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: 
External grapples yet again
Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
"Victoria's" Origins
Oxygen supply
Re: Newbie (but T4)
Re: Blunt Trama Damage
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
SSDS Docking Rings and Crew - Official Answers requested.
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
[none]
Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 21:04:00 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

At 11:02 PM 3/2/97 -0500, Harold D. Hale wrote:
>... No, I fear that the Traveller universe is in general a
>truly male dominated culture where the women are only mildly attractive
>and stay out of the way.  No wonder Norris was AC only.

Given it's GDW-inspired heavily military background, this isn't too
surprising.  OTOH, I think the IG crew would do very well to do things that
will engage women *players* such as making attractive women in the game (no
battledress bikinis, please).  I think there is _plenty_ of room for
positive, strong female roles in Traveller, whether in art, NPCs, or as PCs
- -- think of Athena, Ivanova, Sarah Conner, and maybe Ripley as archetypes.  

Personally, while Ivanova is just a bit too fatalistic for me, I think she
(and the rest of the B5 crew) would fit into a Traveller campaign just fine.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 00:07:54 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Beyond the pylons

...
>WOFWOW

Is this some sort of Vargr saying?

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 07:19:07 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 03/01/97 at 12:06 AM,  CardSharks@aol.com said:
> 
> > > >The USofA being one of the few, if not the only,
> > >  >country to mention things being blown up in its national anthem.
> 
> > What about the Marseillaise (?) and its line about watering our fields
> > with the blood of our enemies.
> 
> Marc, there's no doubt that the French are as blood-thursty a lot as we
> are! As are the English, German, Spanish, Danish...and even our Swedish
> friends. Did I miss anybody? :->
> 

Well, Austria HAS sometimes been quite bloodthirsty in the past during
it's monarchy times. But most of the times, Austria's motto was "tu
felix austria nube", which means "Thou happy austria marry!" or so (my
latin to english converter [TL 1] is a little broken ;-)
This motto discribes, that Austria's monarchs used to gain land by
marrying their children to other monarchs or influential people.

Still there are SOME austrians, which play this trick. Just think of
Arnold Schwarzenecker. :-)

CyA
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:35:59 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: 

>Hmm... Every Baseball, Hockey and Basketball game I've been too has a singer
>do it with taped accompanyment. Footbal games are another matter.

There are actually some humans living outside of USA where your national
anthem is only played when you win the gold (which happens fairly
regularly).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 23:28:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: External grapples yet again

For what it's worth, I like Mark Clark's idea on handling grapples in
QSDS.  For those who missed it, the gist is:

The tabulated volume and area from QSDS are deducted from the base hull
values.  Required drive sizes, fuel tankage, and so forth are determined
using the lowest standard QSDS hull size greater than or equal to the
*combined* size of carrying ship plus all carried craft.

For example, an 800-ton ship carrying three 50-ton cutters on external
grapples would have a total effective volume of 950 tons.  The lowest
entry greater than or equal to this in QSDS is 1000, so 1000 tons would be
used for all drive/fuel calculations and so forth.

I'm interested to hear what other people think about this.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 07:41:39 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

On Sun, 2 Mar 1997 17:10:28 +0000, you wrote:

> James, I understand that the Emperor's Arsenal is bringing back=20
> penetration stats for weapons.  I'm not a hundred percent on this,=20
> but if it is in the EA, this might give us some additional ideas on=20
> this or even solve the problem for us (if you don't like the ideas=20
> that have been posted so far.).

When I got my copy of T4 and got to the combat section, I came across
a little sentence that stated "Because the dice code for ranged combat
tasks is dependent on distance rather than weapon type, it is
theoretically possible for a character to hit a target at 1500 meters
with a pistol, though very unlikely."  Needless to say, I quickly put
the book away and began working on my own combat system once again  :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 97 05:06:29 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: "Victoria's" Origins

Greetings:

A recent posting stated that Victoria (in the Spinward Marches) was based 
on a book by John D. MacDonald (author of many mystery novels). According 
to JTAS#2, it is based on "Prisoners of the Sky", by C. C. MacApp, Lancer 
Books, 1969. Was this a pen name for MacDonald?

Thanks.

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to 
vote."

Ambassador Kosh
BABYLON FIVE

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 11:22:28 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Oxygen supply

Hi!

I've already got CSC (2 days after ordering!!) and am missing something
(maybe I just read over it):
How much does an (exta or reserve) Oxygen-suppy i.e for a EVA-suit or a
survival tent cost, and what would the specs look like?

Any ideas?

CYA
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 04:34:19 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie (but T4)

> Hello Kenneth!

Hello Norman!


> Ah, that sounds fine. Do you think it is a good idea to buy T4?

If you like Traveller, I'd say, yes, it is a good idea to buy T4.

T4 does have its problems, but it is also my system of choice right 
now.  There is something to be said for having a current game.  I've 
tried the conversion route before, and it takes a lot of time, and 
this time commitment doesn't go away.  You are always converting 
something.  For time reasons, I prefer to stay as close to the 
published rules as I can.  I only fix the things that absolutley need 
it.

Given this, my T4 game is using the basic rules as written in T4, 
but I've changed a few things here and there that I thought were 
broken.

The best advice I can give you is that I bought it, and I'm glad I've 
got the core book even with its problems.

The other supplements?

Starships:  
All you are getting here of any value is the SDDS--the 
Standard Ship Design System.  If you  like to design ships, and you 
don't mind paying $25 for it, then you might want to get this book.

I, personally, think it is one of the two poorest supplement yet put 
out for T4.  If you just want the design system, go to the Wildstar 
web page and download the latest version for free.



Central Supply Catalog:
Although small, this is a good book.  You get info on equipment, 
armor, robots, computers, and a vehicle design book.  In my opinion, 
it is one of the best T4 supplements yet produced.



Aliens Archive:
Another good book if you want to have some very "alien" aliens in 
your campaign.  This book has some problems, but I like it OK.  You 
can even use the races as player characters, in case a player wants 
to play something different.



First Survey:
All you are getting in this book are the maps for 9 sectors in and 
around Core.  This is the other half of the two poor T4 supplements 
that I mentioned above under Starships.

If you've already got maps, then I'd say pass on this one.  If you 
don't, ask yourself if $25 is too much for 9 maps.  Maps are a 
necessity, in my opinion, but that price hurts.



Milieu 0:
I haven't had time to digest this one yet--it is packed with 
information, but it looks like it is going to be a good one on first 
inspection.  If you want to play in the M0 time period, this will 
give you campaign background information.



> That's one of my fears: I purchase a newer edition of Traveller and ... find  
> other lacking features and new inconsistencies.

Well, T4 does have its problems.  I'm sure if you stay tuned to this 
list, you will have your pick of ways to fix things that are 
considered broken.

But don't kid yourself.  You will find some features lacking, and you 
will find inconsistencies.  but, you will also find some very good, 
easy to play rules.

I wish that I could say that T4 is 100% great, but I can't.  Adding 
to that though, I'd say that T4 is getting better, and my hope (and 
faith) is that the game will just keep getting better.

Besides, your CT stuff is VERY compatible with T4.  You should be 
able to use supplements from both games.  I do.

> Example: What about learning of new skills and skill levels?

In my opinion, the experience system is broken in T4.  I will be 
working on a fix after I've nailed out a new task system.  My opinion 
on how to fix the xp system may or may not interest you, but you will 
be able to find it here on the TML when I propose it.


> Is there a kind of index in T4 to find specific rules faster?

Actually, yes, in the main book, there is.  I was quite surprised at 
how complete it is too.

Also, if you choose to get T4, you will find a lot of the same things 
from CT in T4 VERBATIM.  Several chapters are just lifted from the 
Traveller Book or Books 1-3.

When I said that it was very compatible, I meant it.


> Oh? I never had seen a Book 4 (which name?). I own Book 1 to 3, a imperial  
> atlas and a adventure, that's all.

You've miss a lot of cool supplements for CT, then.  Book 4 is called 
Mercenary.  Great Book!

Book 5 is High Guard, for Naval characters.  Book 6 is Scouts.  Book 
7 is Merchant Prince, for Merchant characters.  And the last book is 
Book 8 Robots.

Each of these books had extended character generation and special 
rules specific to that career.

Book 4 includes mucho info on weapons, large scale combat, recruiting 
and running merc outfits, etc.

Book 5 has a starship design system and a more advanced ship combat 
system from that in Book 2.

Book 6 has all you ever wanted to know on generating worlds and 
stars systems.

Book 7 has an extended trade system, and Book 8 includes robot design 
and use for Traveller.

Many of these topics are covered in the main T4 book, and if you 
already don't have those CT book, it might be cheaper for you to buy 
T4.

> What's covered in this and what do you expect: How many add-on books one had  
> to buy to have all important rules? (Last but not least it's a question of  
> money to me)

I'd get the T4 main book for sure, and I'd get the Central Supply 
Catalog to supplement the equipment list in the basic T4 book.  The 
rest depends on what you want to do in your campaign.

Look at the descriptions that I've provided above for the T4 products 
currently in release.  Decide which ones will fit in your campaign.

If you are not going to be designing ships, then don't buy Starships. 
 If you want to have a lot of aliens in your campaign, then do get 
the Alien Archive.

Are you going to be playing  in the year 0?  If so, you might want 
Milieu 0, but if you are running a campaign in a different era, then 
this might not be a good choice.  Although I'm running my campaign in 
the 1100's, I like the info I've seen so far in M0.

In sum, get the main book and the CSC, then pick and choose the 
supplements that best suit the type of game that you want to run.

 
 I meant 'new to the game  
> and new here in the TML, but clinging to the classic rules'.

I knew what you meant, Norman.  The innuendo was to get T4.

You said "Newbie (but CT)"

I said, as a suggestion that you should switch to T4, that the title 
of your post should be "Newbie (but T4)"

Lastly, Norman, if you have any additional questions about any of the 
supplements (from any version of Traveller--I have the bulk of them), 
or just have some additional questions, then feel free to e-mail me 
in private.

I'd be glad to help a new Traveller player out in any way I can.

Welcome to the list!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:44:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Blunt Trama Damage

In mail you write:

> Blunt trama should be applied only when the round DOES NOT penetrate. 
> Think about it.  Your wearing a diplo vest(av=3) and you get hit by a
> revolver slug(dv=2).  the round does not penetrate, but you still feel
> the "whomp" of the slug.  2 points blunt trama.  You take a 6d rifle
> shot, the round is going to penetrate, but the velocity is slowed down
> reducing from 6dice to 3dice, but as the shot rips trough your vest and
> into you, there will be no "whomp", no blunt at all, so ignore it.

Nope. If the round is slowed enough to reduce damage, then the removed
energy *has* to go somewhere. The flexible armor spreads it over an
area, such that you only get 1 point of damage for each die removed. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 13:54:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 97-02-26 15:53:42 EST, Doug Berry writes:
>
> << Once again stellar type seems to have been randomly assigned without
> regard
>  for the world.  the worst case I've noticed so far is an Agricultural world
>  orbiting a M9d.  Gives new meaning to the term "iceberg lettuce."
>   >>
>
>    Iceberg, heck this is ICEFIELD lettuce. Maybe the have one heck of a large
> hydroponics facility.

Or they raise a native plant that uses ethyl alcohol as an anti-freeze.
Picture something like 150 proof raspberries. They'd selll *real* well
on the luxury market. 

Or, for that matter, there's nothing that says that "agricultural
products" have to be *edible*. They can be starting points for
producing drugs, fibers, even plastics.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 14:34:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

In mail you write:

> What Dominic said:
>
> He said, basically, that the blunt trauma rule is broken, and after 
> hearing his explanation, I agree.
>
> How?  Take this example.
>
> Jack's not wearing any armor.  He gets hit by a big game rilfe, which 
> does 6D damage.  Due to the maximum damage rule, he only takes 3 D6 
> damage.
>
> For comparison, let's say that Jack is wearing Diplo armor (flexible 
> AV3).  He gets hit by the big game rifle.  He takes 3 D6 +3 damage.
>
> Why the +3 damage?  It is because of the blunt trauma rule that says 
> a character takes 1 point of damage for every damage die negated by 
> flexible armor.
>
> As Dominic has said, therein lies the problem.  Under T4 as written, 
> a character with no armor takes (or could take--depending on how the 
> dice are rolled) less damage than a character with armor.

Which is *exactly* what happens in real life! A bullet that goes thru
does *less* damage (unless it hits something vital). A bullet that is
stopped by flexible armor (a kevlar vest or the like) will cause
*extensive* damage. Broken ribs and the like.

That's why using flexible armor against anything much heavier than
*pistol* rounds is a *bad* idea. It spreads energy that would have gone
into going *thru* into impact energy. So instead of a deep puncture
wound, with shock trauma around it, you get the equivalent of dropping
a big rock on the character.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 97 19:53:23 
From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Subject: SSDS Docking Rings and Crew - Official Answers requested.

  I have a couple of questions about values and Formulae in SSDS as
printed in Starships. I sent the first couple of these off last week, but
didn't get any reply, so I have put them in again. Wildstar and Dave, I
would appreciate any advice you can provide.

1) Looking over the designs submitted for the first THUDD competition
(including mine), I have noticed something of a discrepancy in the crew
rules - specifically the steward and medic types.

QSDS (T4 p95) says that 1 Steward and 1 Medic are required if there is a
single high passenger.
Stewards: 1 steward per 8 high psg/cmd crew, and 1 steward per 50 mid
psg/other crew. Fractions rounded UP.
Medics: 1 medic per 120 people, and 1 medic per 20 low berths. No rounding
is mentioned.

SSDS (Starships p74) says that the requirement is rounded down, unless it
is less than 1, when it  becomes part of the duties of the Misc crewmember,
if any. So 1 high passenger, no command and no mid passengers do not need
a steward, or a medic.

2) The other problem is that the steward requirement is calculated per 100
mid passengers in SSDS, and per 50 mid passengers in QSDS. Which one is
right?


3) Whilst writing SAL, I tried to reverse engineer the price values for
Docking Rings on p103 of starships. I couldn't work out how it was done.
Going back to FFS, it seems (it isn't definitive) that they should be
handled the same way as hangers and have launch ports installed. The quoted
surface area backs this up as how it was done. If that is the case then the
price should be caluclated as [0.0002xVol + 0.0001xSurfArea] where Volume
is in Cubic Meters and Surface Area is in Square Meters. The following
table shows what the prices should be in that case.

 Small Craft    Recalculated
 Displacement      Price
          10        0.08
          20        0.13
          30        0.18
          40        0.23
          50        0.27
          60        0.31
          70        0.36
          80        0.41
          90        0.45

Thanks,
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:50:21 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

Zhodani agents report that SirBStard@aol.com wrote:

- ->  -> Marc, there's no doubt that the French are as blood-thursty a lot as we
- ->  -> are! As are the English, German, Spanish, Danish...and even our Swedish
- ->  -> friends. Did I miss anybody? :->
- ->  Why, we Germans are only out for Unity, Right and Freedom and that 
- ->  these are the goals we should all strive for for the better of our 
- ->  land... I can see nothing bloodthirsty in that...! 
- ->       Maybe right now but that can change. See the recent events with the L.
- -> Ron Hubbard set and their little faith popular with some American actors.
But that is another story entiely: When an organization bent on 
world domination dons the robes of a religion, should we treat it as 
one or should we not rather try and stop them now? 

- -> They have been having some trouble in Bavaria I hear.
- ->     So lets cut the garbage. No nation is purely for "Unity, Right and
- -> Freedom", and everyone of them has done some killing. It's a governmental
Of course, but I was just quoting from ou
- -> work of Satan. And you know what happens to those who traffic with the devil
- -> -- they get burned at the stake. :o
Well, we're lucky in that respect: I just saw a documentary on 
rock-music in Egypt, how it's seen as devils worship and how those 
who go to those dicos or parties are treated by the government! Sad, 
sad story!
- -> 
- ->  Wink Wink - Nudge Nudge, say no more :)
Look, are you insinuating something?
Just my 2 EuroCents,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 06:55:31 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!

Zhodani Agents report Harold D. Hale said:
>
>   If Shorts exists at all, it would be as a moon of a brown dwarf that
>circles an M9 *main sequence star* in orbit 0.  Planetary technonics
>alone would be insufficent to keep the planet warm with fluid water
>oceans and a breathable atmosphere.  No, much of Shorts would be covered
>with a vast icefield, and the atmosphere above the icefields would be
>very thin (trace in Traveller terms) and consist mostly of oxygen (from
>the disassociation of water molecules), and perhaps some methane, carbon
>dioxide, and smaller amounts of other components.
>
[Snip of Ag rationalization for Shorts]
>
>   The above explanation still doesn't work for the world listed in
>First Survey though.  That's why I say it would be much easier to just
>change the star and keep the main world stats and descriptions "as is".

How about native plantlife which doesn't require a 'normal' earthlike
environment, but which is, by an odd quirk, wholly compatible with human
biology and quite edible?

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://www.visi.com/~danger/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:19:18 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

>Or they raise a native plant that uses ethyl alcohol as an anti-freeze.
>Picture something like 150 proof raspberries. They'd selll *real* well
>on the luxury market.

A native plant that is based on water on an ice only world? Remember that
it is not a terran plant genetailored to this planet, it has to have
evolved on it. This leads to the conclusion that the "oceans" also have
anti-freeze 150 proof in them.

Think about that. You need to distill out the alcohol from the drinking
water in order not to get drunk. Barfly heaven.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:20:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: [none]

From the Commadner at the office
(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)

This a quote from TML Digest#1014
this stupid mailprog(Microsoft) thing at work wond do the ">" quotes, and 
I'm not gonna manualy put them in! :)


Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 14:22:24 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: re: Blunt Trama Damage

> I have been looking over this thread and have been thinking.
> Blunt trama should be applied only when the round DOES NOT penetrate.
> Think about it.  Your wearing a diplo vest(av=3) and you get hit by a
> revolver slug(dv=2).  the round does not penetrate, but you still feel
> the "whomp" of the slug.  2 points blunt trama.  You take a 6d rifle
> shot, the round is going to penetrate, but the velocity is slowed down
> reducing from 6dice to 3dice, but as the shot rips trough your vest and
> into you, there will be no "whomp", no blunt at all, so ignore it.

I think the "whomp" is on your chest when you are hit.

If you do it this way, you get in a situation where having armor will
increase your chance of being damaged.  That's what we were trying to
fix with the blunt trauma rule.

If you are hit with a 4D6 gun while wearing AV3 flexible armor, under
your system, you'd take 1 D6 of damage.

But then again, lets say, wearing the same armor, you are hit with a
3 D6 round.  Under your system, the character would take a solid 3
points of damage.

In many cases, that 3 points will be more damage than what you would
have taken if the round had penetrated.

> Take it from someone with personal experience in wounds, blunt trama
> makes bruises, but penetration friggin hurts! :)

Which your explanation doesn't support, given my example above.

If you don't really like my basic blunt trauma fix, try Glenn Grant's
or Mike Sellers' more advanced fixes.  Both of those are good ideas.

Thanks, Commander X,

Kenneth.
___________________


Ah, I see your point.   A flat number for blunt, while the penetration is a 
random effect.  There's a quick fix for that.   Make the blunt damage random 
too.   In your example, for example(<G>),  the penetrated round would do 
1d6.  and the MAXIMUM blunt dammage would be 3.  So, make the blunt damage 
1d3.  Likewise for all blunt trama effects.  It should be only a maximum. 
(i.e. 1dBTN where BTN=Blunt Trama Number).

Hope this helps.
The Commander.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:00:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)

On Sun, 2 Mar 1997, Colin Hollands wrote:

> match, about who does what best/worst and just state that their isn't a
> single country that has a clean sheet, somewhere in their background is
> some sort of nastiness that they would rather forget, and it is human
> nature to forget the 1000 good things and remember 1 terrible thing that a
> person or nation has done, 

The U.S. is exceptionally good at getting away with this partticular
tactic.

>and it is another fact that the majority of
> Wars/conflicts/represive behaviour throughout history have been ostensibly
> over Religion.
>

I was going to take issue with this until I realized thatyou said
"ostensibly".  If one looks closely, it usually seems that the religious
aspect is merely an excuse for an economic one.
 
> to cite a few
> 
> Richard the Lionheart against the heathen (to Christians) saracens
And to preserve the silk trade with the far east.

> Charles I against the Scots 1638-40 trying to force them to use a new
> prayer book and failed.
Incidentially attempting to conquer an economic region, something they
accomplished later on.

> The Spanish inquisition in Europe
Which could arguably have made the church one of the richest entities in
Europe by siezing the assets of the accused.

> The Conquistadors in Central/South America
Blantant search for the gold of the aztecs and incas, and colonial
exploitation of the "New World".

> The New world settlers trying to convert the native american indians
So they could settle peacefully on their new land

> The Jews and the Arabs who've been fighting for millenia
Over the land in the region.  Ok, this may be a truly religious or perhaps
"cultural" conflict. 

> The Romans throwing Christians to the Lions 
And keeping the remaining slaves from revolting (well, it didn''t work all
the time).

> 
> The list goes on.....
> 
It sure does, more examples of economic conflict;

The American Civil War
The American Revolution
WWI
WWII
The Gulf War
The Vietnam War

Now, I'm not denying that there are not major other factors affecting the
motives of the citizens and fighters in these conflicts, but itcan be
argued that the primary motivation of the leaders in these conflicts were
economic considerations. 

> So much for peace and goodwill to all men (providing they are
of the same
> Relegion,race,creed,colour etc etc)
> 
And provided they don't have something someone else wants.

> **** for god sake get off the soap box ****

Me Too

Obligatory Traveller Reference;

I figure the Zhodani in 1100 are starting to run out of natural resources
and looking towards the Spinward Marches for more.  Oh and we all know
what motivation the Aslan have for moving into places.

Pete

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1016
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1017



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Q&A with Tim Brown
Q&A Addendum
missing Web page.
Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)
Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)
Geonee Setting 1: Milieu Zero (LONG)
Re: Q&A with Tim Brown
Re: Relativistic travel (was Re: Focus of the List)
Re: T4 Gripes
Re: T4 Gripes & A Better Task System
Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)
re: stars in FS (was re:Re: Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!)
In cyberspace everyone can hear you scream!
Re: Q&A with Tim Brown
Blunt Trauma
Re: T4 Gripes & A Better Task System
Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)
Re: Duck Soup
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Jump Space: Hot and Heavy!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:21:08 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Q&A with Tim Brown

Hi folks,

Over the weekend, the Web Newsletter generated a lot of questions.  Tim 
spared a few minutes from his busy schedule to answer a few:

Q.  Which German Distributor handles T4?

A.  FanPro


Q.  What is "Gateway" as listed in the 97 product list?

A.  It's the second half of the 2-part "The Long Way Home" from CORE


Q.  FF&S and Naval Archetect's Manual are both listed.  I thought they 
were the same products?

A.  FF&S will be the updated FF&S product.  Naval Archetect's Manual 
happens to share a similar name with the name used on GDW-Beta as a 
working product title for the updated FF&S.  So, on IG's web site, "FF&S" 
refers to the updated FF&S product.  Naval Archetect's Manual refers to a 
product that will provide instructions for using ships designed with FF&S 
in Traveller games (i.e., how to make deckplans, how ships are run, etc.).


Q.  What is "Aliens Hardback 1"?

A.  The details haven't been completely decided yet.  But, it will 
include Vargr and Aslan, at the least.  It may include 1 or 2 more Alien 
races.  It depends on how much space the other two take up.  But, they 
want to do a very detailed job on each alien race, so they're not going 
to skimp and put 8 aliens in one volume and so on.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:23:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Q&A Addendum

Hi,

I forgot one:

Q.  If Deluxe Traveller is just for the Internet, and there will be no 
softbound version, will a bug-fixed version of T4 ever be in the stores?

A.  Yes.  The web newsletter didn't state it clearly, but the 
Internet-only version is one that is signed, numbered, and stamped (as 
mentioned previously in correspondence from IG).  Eventually, Deluxe 
Traveller will be in stores (in hardbound only!) too, but the ones that 
go to stores won't be signed and numbered, and they will be from a 
different print run.  Thus, those who purchase the internet-only version 
will have a special collectible.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 22:50:57 +0800
From: "Benjamin Barton" <aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
Subject: missing Web page.

what happened to David Golden web page at
http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Traveller.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:16:02 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)

Zhodani agents report that Peter  H. Brenton wrote:

- -> Obligatory Traveller Reference;
- -> 
- -> I figure the Zhodani in 1100 are starting to run out of natural resources
- -> and looking towards the Spinward Marches for more.  Oh and we all know
- -> what motivation the Aslan have for moving into places.

Well,, I alway figured, that they felt they were just protecting 
themselves from imperial imperialism (pardon the pun), which they 
felt was getting dangerously close to their borders.
They themselves, were never out for conquest, only for relative 
stability of their sphere. Maybe they also felt that their caste 
system was threatened by the imperial way of life!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:32:45 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)

In a message dated 97-03-03 09:58:22 EST, you write:

> I figure the Zhodani in 1100 are starting to run out of natural resources
>  and looking towards the Spinward Marches for more.  Oh and we all know
>  what motivation the Aslan have for moving into places.

Zho in 1100. Long term efforts to keep the (bigger) Imperium out of their
economic back yard.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:39:53 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Geonee Setting 1: Milieu Zero (LONG)

        Dear TMLers,

        Continuing with the tradition <G> of sporadic Geonee posts, here it
is, the third Geonee setting that I am posting, that also happens to be
(chronologically) the first. UWPs are from FS, used with permission (thanks,
Marc!). I also enclose one excerpt from the Geonee Timeline that is related
to the setting. You can find the whole, revised timeline at the Geonee
Online Sourcebook, http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/geonee/index.html

        Comments are extremely welcome.

        Carlos the Geonee maker. ;-)

================================================================================
Setting 1: Milieu Zero & The Second Geonee Confederation
================================================================================

UWPs from First Survey, used with permission.
The author recognizes copyrights and trademarks from Far Future Enterprises.

Allegiance: Gc: Second Geonee Confederation

Duuir		0928	A100155-C	Lo Va    614 Gc  M1V M8D
	(Local name: Rigaal). The Confederacy has sponsored the
construction of extensive shipyards at this system, which is the primary
supplier of military and exploration ships for the Geonee Navy and its
individual worlds and nations. The starport authorities enjoy a fair amount of
autonomy, although the key positions are almost always in hands of Geonee
noble families.

Inkhuug		1027	B686422-9	Lo         421 Gc   F3V
	(Local name: Hiponee). This heavenly planet was one of the signers
of the original Second Confederacy. In -45, a bloody Civil War was followed
by the decision to remove the native surviving population to Dreva, and the
planet was declared reserved for the Geonee nobility. Nowadays, the planet
is kept as noble residence and world affairs are managed by the assembly of
all residents.

Lalii		1028	E300588-4	Ni Va     510 Gc   F1V M6D
	(Local name: Dreva). The population is primarily composed by
former inhabitants of Hiponee (Inkhuug) ant their descendants, after their
forced migration. They are ruled by a bureaucratic, autonomous system, but
the Confederation keeps strong restrictions on the available technology.

Lagna		1029	B1108BB-E	Na         131 Gc  G3V M8D
	The planetoid belts of this system are full of valuable resources, and
they are the main source of ores of the Confederation. Lagna is also home to
most of the Confederation Research facilities, including the central offices of
ADRAT, the Association for the Development and Retrieval of Advanced
Technology, an organization sponsored by the confederation and fully
devoted to research, diffusion and retrieval of advanced technological
knowledge.
	Lagna is ruled by a former industrial family which joined the nobility
ranks when the Confederation was established. The present dictator, Count
Ar-Ganaal, has occasionally used foreign mercenaries to keep the local
population subdued.

Duundam E.	1130	B110344-B	Lo          514 Gc  F3V
	(Local name: Stenardee). The Confederation maintains a small
colony in this world for strategical and commercial reasons.

Vluuper Pim.	1131	C567333-6	Lo          710 Gc  F4V M7D
	(Local name: Ashavakuna). The native life of this world is hostile and
non-edible to humans. Nevertheless, a small group of colonists is struggling
against the environment and developing an agricultural exploitation in this
world.

Kiimda		1328	A100366-D	Lo Va     603 Gc  G0V
	(Local name: Tlasov). This is not one of the "traditional" 8 Geonee
worlds. In -78, the Confederation Navy moved to this low population system
and occupied it. Since then, many civil shipyards and pollutant industries
have moved here from Lagna, Shiwonee and Hiponee. The world is under
the direct authority of the Confederation.
	Most of the Geonee civilian starships are constructed here.

Muusha		1330	D443244-6	Lo Po     224 Gc  G2D M6D
	(Local name: Prindee). This unappealing world holds one
Confederation outpost.

Asadug		1430	BA86A77-C	Hi          433  Gc  F7VI M9D
	(Local name: Shiwonee). Shiwonee is the homeworld of the Geonee
minor human race. It's high gravity (1.3 G) and its geological hyperactivity
(frequent earthquakes and large number of active volcanoes) make it
somewhat inhospitable. Moreover, clymatic cycles that turn all regions
uninhabitable on a regular basis make things even worse.
	Nevertheless, both advances in wheather control and the
construction of extensive orbital facilities have led to a demographic
explosion in the last centuries.
	The planet is balkanized: the planetary surface is divided between
noble states and almost democratic nations. Almost all orbital cities are
autonomous.
	Shiwonee is the capital of the Second Geonee Confederation,
established in -190 to coordinate the efforts of the Shiwonee nations and
other Geonee worlds on two main fronts: interstellar exploration and
colonization, and technological research.
================================================================================
Excerpts from the Geonee Timeline
================================================================================

	From the Vilani occupation to the Second Confederation

- -4,700 	Revolt against Vilani rulers bloodly crushed. Forquee nuked.
- -4,100 	Several former Geonee colonies depopulated. All Geonee worlds except
        Shiwonee, Prindee, and the Stenardee Cluster re-colonized with Vilani
        humans. Geonee minorities (sometimes large) survive at many worlds.
- -2,230 	Geonee welcome Solomani as liberators, participating in the war against
        Vilani.
- -2,200 	Geonee Autonomy granted in the Rule of Man.
- -1,776 	Long Night: Rigaal, Dreva, Ashavakuna, Prindee and Stenardee population
	extinguished. Rest of Geonee worlds fall to TL 5.
- -410	First orbital city constructed in Shiwonee (TL 9)
- -320	Shiwonee experiences steady population growth as wheather control starts.
- -250 	Geonee worlds (Hiponee, Lagna, Shiwonee) re-contact each
	other. Small base established in Prindee.
- -190 	Second Geonee Confederation established. Nobility system developed.
- -180	Small colonies established in all empty worlds in the Stenardee cluster.
- -175	Confederation sponsors the Association for the Development and Retrieval
        of Advanced Technology (ADRAT). ADRAT "Technical Schools" established at
        several	worlds in Massilia.
- -150 	Sylean Scouts re-contact the Geonee.
- -95	Geonee Embassy and ADRAT office established at Sylea.
- -81	Confederation Embassy established at Llyrn (0931).
- -78	Tlasov (1328) and Nindaro (1428) occupied.
- -73	Llyrn signs Commercial Treaty with the Confederation.
- -62	Geonee navy raids Garency (1133), a commercial rival.
- -48	Tlasov starport upgraded. Many shipyards from Lagna and Shiwonee move to
	Tlasov.
- -45	Hiponee Civil War
- -42	Geonee nobles declare Hiponee reserved. Forced migration to Dreva.
	Hiponee industries moved to Tlasov.
- -38	Pohkrow Campaign: Pohkrow (1629) and Bisks Planet (1630) conquered.
- -37	Some heavy pollutant industries move to Tlasov from Shiwonee.
- -34	Nindaro Rebellion: Nindaro becomes independent with Sylean economic help.
	Pohkrow and Bisks Planet occupation ends.
	Sylean merchants imprisoned in Shiwonee.
- -30 	Geonee Confederation signs Free Trade accordment with Sylean Federation
0 	Geonee Confederation refuses to join Third Imperium. Commercial conflicts
        and military skirmishes follow for decades.
3	Nindaro joins the Third imperium.
80 	Pacification Campaigns: Geonee defeated and incorporated into the 3rd 
        Imperium. Tlasov becomes independent and is declared subsector capital.
============================================================================
=====
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:47:17 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Q&A with Tim Brown

Zhodani agents report that Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

- -> Q.  Which German Distributor handles T4?
- -> A.  FanPro
Oh no! German Travellers, prepare for even steeper prices! I just 
hope they aren't the only distributors!
- -> 
- -> Q.  What is "Gateway" as listed in the 97 product list?
- -> 
- -> A.  It's the second half of the 2-part "The Long Way Home" from CORE
Will this Edition be basically the same than the earlier release? 
What will be the differences? Just the layout? Or, asked differently, 
will I have any benefits from buying it again?
- -> 
- -> product that will provide instructions for using ships designed with FF&S 
- -> in Traveller games (i.e., how to make deckplans, how ships are run, etc.).
I hope it discusses how to make USEFUL deckplans, opposed to the ones 
in Starships ;-)

- -> Q.  What is "Aliens Hardback 1"?
- -> A.  The details haven't been completely decided yet.  But, it will 
- -> include Vargr and Aslan, at the least.  It may include 1 or 2 more Alien 
- -> races.  It depends on how much space the other two take up.  But, they 
- -> want to do a very detailed job on each alien race, so they're not going 
- -> to skimp and put 8 aliens in one volume and so on.
But why publish it as hardback? Shouldn't they rather look at the 
price and do a softcover. Another problem i have with this design, is 
that so much has been done on these races, wouldn't most of it be a 
repeat performance of what went before (especially those 
DGP - products, which will prove hard to top!). The choice of race is 
unfortunate, as well, since Aslan and Vargr have been done very well 
already so many old times won't feel the need to buy even more on 
them. I would, however, be very keen on buying data on lesser 
developed races, such as Zhodani, Droyne, K'kree, Hiver and the like.
They would be much more useful, than "yet another Vargr, Aslan book"! 
I would gladly buy those!

Another unrelated point: I just noticed that M:200 is not included in 
the schedule anymore :-(



Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 11:18:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Relativistic travel (was Re: Focus of the List)

   Hi.

> From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>

> How about relativistic travel in-system?  For example, if I wanted to have
> Our Heros travel from, say, Earth to Pluto without using some sort of
> microjumps, how fast (their perceived time) could they get there without
> noticeable relativistic effects?  I have the Lorenz transformation around
> here somewhere, but haven't dug it out.

   Yes, I have done these calculations before. The shipboard time can be
   found by the equation

   T = Sqrt(4D/A).

   It's the same regardless of the maximum velocity of the ship at
   the turnaround point.

   Well, that's easy. My question is: What is the formula for the time
   in the reference frame of the planets? I tried to work this out once,
   and bogged down.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 03:24:25 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: T4 Gripes

John R. Snead wrote:

> ...However, skill level 3 is enough to become a
> licensed physician and I see no reason at all to change the meaning of
> skill levels...   

I've changed that to level 6, level 3 is too easy to attain in
generation

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 03:31:54 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: T4 Gripes & A Better Task System

Peter Newman wrote:

> A New Task System for Traveller:
> 
>         Dice Rolling Procedure:  Roll 2d6 for all tasks.  On a natural roll of
> 2 or 12 roll more dice.
> 
>         On any roll of 12 you  roll 1 more d6 and add its result to your total,
> if it is a 6 you roll another d6 and add it to your total, keep rolling
> as long as you get sixes.


This is very close to the system I am using, except I divide the
attributes by 4 to get a modifier.

However, let me express my great admiration of your system ;)


Could I have a roll call of any ref who is using the T4 system *as is*?

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:39:39 -0600
From: "David Reed" <david@techrefuge.com>
Subject: Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)

I always forget to turn off my "official" persona...  So I'll have to
forward this late in the debate, and agree (with someone actually) with
CommanderX.

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
> Date: Saturday, March 01, 1997 7:51 AM

I don't know why, but I always seem to be disagreeing with Ken.  ;-( 
Sorry!

Well, not really.  Heh.

> What Dominic said:
> 
> He said, basically, that the blunt trauma rule is broken, and after 
> hearing his explanation, I agree.
[example snipped]
> The max damage rule states that a character cannot take more than 3 
> D6 of damage (certain things break this rule--explosions, automatic 
> fire, shotguns).  This should include blunt trauma damage.

Rounds which penetrate armor SHOULD NOT deliver blunt trauma in addition to
the penetrating damage.  If the round penetrates, the left over energy is
generally enough to slice through without significant resistance.

Rounds which do not penetrate but are stopped FULLY by armor should deliver
blunt trauma.

Having worn/been-trained-heavily-in-the-use-of kevlar body armor (I
wear/wore a Class IIIa Armadillo vest: it's in the closet...), this is all
based on live tests of non-penetrating rounds which I have witnessed (those
guys at Second Chance are NUTS!) and autopsy photos of penetrating rounds
which I was "treated" to ("Yes, Sgt. I will never trust my life to my
vest...").  Thank Yaskodray, I was never Irish enough to find out first
hand.

> Ken's fix for blunt trauma:
> 	
> 	The max damage rule cannot be broken by blunt trauma.

It shouldn't really apply.  If that M-16 (firing .223) penetrates my vest,
and it will - i.e. it misses the Class IV ballistic steel trauma plate -
the blunt trauma is the last thing I'm going to be worrying about: it being
insignificant in comparison with the penetration/tumble damage.  However, I
will notice the blunt trauma from the .357 magnum that it stops completely!
(Nasty purple bruises, even through a Class IIIa, though not as bad as it
would be through a Featherweight Class II.)  And for disablement or healing
purposes the blunt trauma probably won't have much effect over and above
the more nasty wound...

As for armor that does not stop penetration being more wearer friendly than
armor that does stop the round, YOU GUYS FORGOT MATERIALS!  An armor level
of THREE has got to be RIGID -- that means ZERO transfer of energy to the
wearer without penetration -- and yes, the spent energy does go somewhere,
into heating the armor, chipping the paint, etc.

Second Chance(r) makes a rigid Class IV "suit" for the Coast Guard
(complete with a self-inflating life preserver) in a very stylish safety
orange: and having witnessed a test on it with a non-penetrating 5.45Bloc
(AK round), the wearer suffered NO bruising or damage or any kind (neither
to the chest with 3 rounds, nor to the groin with 2 round).  The test
"dummy" wasn't up for trying a penetrating round...  We suggested depleted
uranium, discarding sabot .50BMG, but he wasn't having any.  ;-)

Do you really think that someone wearing combat armor is going to take ANY
blunt trauma?  Nope.  Inertial compensators, padding, etc. will stop the
blunt trauma.  Only flexible armors are susceptible to it, and probably
being feasible about armor level 2.  And even most flexible armors (Class
IIa and above) will stop the average handgun round (.45ACP, 9mm) with
little or no blunt trauma to the victim.
</rant>
 
BTW, who's original ideas were these:

1.  Roll all damage dice for unarmored chars and use the highest 3?
2.  Roll all damage dice for armored chars and stop the highest first?

I always like to give credit!
__________________________________________________________________________

David Reed  ***  david@techrefuge.com   ***   May Microsoft be with you...
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:05:47 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: stars in FS (was re:Re: Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!)

>>To make this one fly, you have to resort to some creative
>>planetology.  <G> Hum, let's see...SHORTS is an Earth sized moon orbiting a
>>Brown Dwarf in orbit 0 of the M9d.  The dwarf and the star still don't
>>supply enough heat for the moon, but the interaction of tidal forces keeps
>>the moon's core hot..hot enough to maintain an atmosphere, a dense CO2 rich
>>atmosphere, through volcanism...and the shear perversity of Gaia.  

>   Still doesn't work.  How did that brown dwarf get into orbit 0?  The
>M9 white dwarf was at some point in its history a red giant (that is the
>way most stars evolve--proto star to main sequence to red giant to white
>dwarf), and during that phase of the star's life, orbit 0 would have
>been inside the star, thus the brown dwarf would have been vaporized,
>along with its moon.

Does "M9d" really indicate a M9 "white" dwarf? There's no such animal;
the universe isn't old enough for white dwarfs to have cooled down to M9
temperatures. (The coolest white dwarf I personally know of is 5000 K or so,
though I'm not a white dwarf specialist.)

On the other hand, a brown dwarf could happily survive inside the envelope of
a red giant. It would tend to accrete mass (which makes it spiral inward,
and might make it turn into a star, though it's not clear how easy that is 
to do.) A brown dwarf in the innermost orbit of a white dwarf is perfectly
plausible - my PhD thesis advisor spent several years looking for them.
(Never found one, but presumably that's because brown dwarfs are inherently
rare.)(He thought he found one - G29-38, a white dwarf with a huge IR excess -
but the IR excess turned out to be caused by dust. No-one actually knows
where the dust comes from - dust should only last a few million years in orbit
around a white dwarf. Of course, we all know that it's simply the remnamts
of a planet destroyed by the Ancients...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:18:15 GMT
From: Uri Charalgun <lord.ainacs@MAILHOST.NET>
Subject: In cyberspace everyone can hear you scream!

As an CT-ref and player since 1979 I doubted the bringing of MT. It was an
economic-boosting move that had to compensate the loss of buyers and when
Strephon was "killed", the CT died with him. TNE was a last try to give
life to the best RPG ever made, but it was a failure and in 1990 I boxed
all Traveller material in the attic.
Last fall I moved and the box was opened and I made a nostalgic plunge into
the riches of the box. Now I hear something about mr Miller and T4 and I
wonder if this is it. Am I able to relive that decade of imagination? Can
my crippled character Earl Miller return to the Spinward Marshes? Is there
any reason not to return to Glisten? Can he ever find his loved one
Lorraine Messandi, the girl he rescued from the feared Snicker-snackers?
Where do T4 start and is it like the CT?
Only you can answer it for me!

daLord

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 11:24:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Q&A with Tim Brown

On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> Will this Edition be basically the same than the earlier release? 
> What will be the differences? Just the layout? Or, asked differently, 
> will I have any benefits from buying it again?

The IG Edition of TLWH will be produced in 2 parts.  It will be updated 
by the original authors (David Burden and Andy Lilly) so that it fits 
with the current sector map as presented in First Survey.  Other than 
that, no changes are currently planned.


> But why publish it as hardback? Shouldn't they rather look at the 
> price and do a softcover. Another problem i have with this design, is 
> that so much has been done on these races, wouldn't most of it be a 
> repeat performance of what went before (especially those 

It won't be a repeat performance for everyone though - IG has this crazy 
idea that they're reaching out to NEW customers with T4!  =)  As for why 
do it in hardback, I'm told the cost difference of doing a book that is 256 
pp in hardback vs. softback is minimal, so why not do it hardbound? (BTW, 
the same reasoning was applied in the case of T4; that's why there won't 
be any more softbacks after the current inventory is sold.  Every copy of 
T4 produced in the future will be hardbound.  The internet-preordered 
ones will also be signed and numbered, etc.  But all will be hardbound.)


> Another unrelated point: I just noticed that M:200 is not included in 
> the schedule anymore :-(

Which, IMO, is a good thing.  It's better to spend some time exploring 
and further developing M:0 before bringing out another milieu.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:20:30 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Blunt Trauma

After reading Commander X and Ken's exchange on blunt trauma, I have a
suggestion. I think Cmdr X's idea of having the attack do 1/2 damage only as
blunt trauma is a good idea. This if your armor absorbs 3d of hits, you will
take 1.5 dice (or you can always round down if you don't want to deal with
half-dice). This eliminates the "damage plus blunt trauma is more than damage" 
problem. Another option would be to take blunt trauma only on the roll of
certain numbers-say for every 6 rolled on damage, take 1 pt. blunt trauma.
(This is the way GURPS does it). I prefer the first option myself.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 04:35:00 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: T4 Gripes & A Better Task System

ok.... I am much more than a week behind on my mail, please ignore my
previous posts, I have gotten into the bad habit of replying immediately
when I read. Unfortunately I was replying to a very old message. 
Damn, do I feel stupid or what.

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:48:54 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)

>From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>

>"ostensibly".  If one looks closely, it usually seems that the religious
>aspect is merely an excuse for an economic one.

>> The Conquistadors in Central/South America
>Blantant search for the gold of the aztecs and incas, and colonial
>exploitation of the "New World".
>
>> The New world settlers trying to convert the native american indians
>So they could settle peacefully on their new land

        IMHO, nobody in this list can say that I am heat-headed nor usually
speak with anger, and I have never entered in a discussion that is not
Traveller in content, but this is a bit too much. Forgive me, but the
partial view you have of history astonishes me. So, the Spanish were
exploting the new land and the English were pacefully settling in? Then,
could you explain why there is a high percentage of native american people
on Central and South america, while they are almost extinguished in north
America.
        Nuff said.

        Carlos.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Duck Soup

In-Reply-To: <970228214552_-2008736299@emout07.mail.aol.com>

> >First though, I have to finish work on my
> >Traveller version of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"....
> 
> Harold, I now know the true meaning of fear.
> dsf.

"It's just a (miss)jump to the left..."

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

In-Reply-To: <199702281854.KAA27719@mom.hooked.net>

<< Might I point out that since this was written during the bombardment of Ft.
McHenry by the Royal Navy, it actually shows the *British* fondness of
blowing things up.  Also, since they couldn't even drop the flagpole, it
shows a certain lack of competence. >>

Maybe they were just aiming at more militarily significant targets...

<<you can't beat the French >>

"beating the French" used to be our national sport...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 97 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Jump Space: Hot and Heavy!

In-Reply-To: <199702280705.CAA12914@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

<< During the next week this "fuel", dissipates slowly into hyperspace
thinning the surrounding shell.  After about 1 week (and it varies because
more or less "fuel"..of varying purity is injected, the "fuel" dissipates
at slightly different rates, and the local conditions of hyperspace are
never really known) the shell has thinned to the point where the ship POPS
out of hyperspace and back into normal space. >>

Good idea, but it doesn't really fit with canon (which says the 'fuel' 
really *is* fuel).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1017
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1018



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage
In-system campaign: economics?
Star Wars
Latest IG Update: lingering Q
Re: Blunt Trauma
Re: Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)
The Commander's Quick and Dirty Wound Sy
Re: [T97#1012] Glenn's D66 Task System
Re: Star Wars
Re: Blunt Trauma
Re:  Q&A with Tim Brown
Re: Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)
Re: SSDS Docking Rings and Crew - Official Answers requested.
Re: Q&A with Tim Brown
Re: missing Web page.
Re: Latest IG Update: lingering Q
Re: Q&A with Tim Brown
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1017
Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)
Re: Latest IG Update: lingering Q

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 18:28:15 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Fix:  Blunt Trauma Damage

On Sun, 2 Mar 1997 14:34:01 PST, you wrote:

> Which is *exactly* what happens in real life! A bullet that goes thru
> does *less* damage (unless it hits something vital). A bullet that is
> stopped by flexible armor (a kevlar vest or the like) will cause
> *extensive* damage. Broken ribs and the like.

Actually, the purpose of body armour isn't to *reduce* damage, as much
as change the *nature* of the wound.  Rounds which penetrate naturally
cause massive internal and external bleeding (ie: difficult to treat
before the patient goes into shock).  Body armour that spreads the
energy out over a larger section of the victim virtually eliminates
external bleeding, while greatly reducing the chances of internal
bleeding.  Because of this, the victim has a much higher probability
of surviving the attack, even though s/he has been subjected to the
same amount of kinetic energy.  It still feels like you've been hit
with a sledgehammer, though, but the type of wound isn't as life
threatening (barring the chances of fractured ribs puncturing a lung
or something like that).

The problem here is that most RPGs don't differentiate between these
two types of injuries very well at all.  :(

> That's why using flexible armor against anything much heavier than
> *pistol* rounds is a *bad* idea. It spreads energy that would have gone
> into going *thru* into impact energy. So instead of a deep puncture
> wound, with shock trauma around it, you get the equivalent of dropping
> a big rock on the character.

As you stated, a bullet that completely penetrates a target transfers
less kinetic energy than one that comes to a stop within the victim
(it is still moving, after all).

This is another problem with a lot of RPGs... armour piercing bullets
usually end up doing more damage than standard ammunition, instead of
less (on average).  :(

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 11:21:25 -0800
From: cwebb@mail.ctainforms.com (Christopher E. Webb)
Subject: In-system campaign: economics?

The discussion last week about in-system campaigns raised a question with me:

What would freight and passenger charges be for in-system transportation?  It
seems a little steep to charge KCr10, for example, for a flight from a world
to one of its satellites.  Has anyone worked on prices for in-system transport?

I am assuming a heavily colonized star system -- multiple worlds area settled,
etc, but that interstellar travel is also available.

Any ideas are appreciated.

Christopher Webb
cwebb@mscomm.com     
http://www.mscomm.com/~cwebb

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:57:15 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Star Wars

[If you will forgive an old fart a few reminisces, Please}

With the re-release of the revised Star Wars Trilogy, I am reminded of the
day Marc and I drove to Lombard (suburb of Chicago) to catch the opening, as
the film would not be in Bloomington-Normal for another week. 

I should mention at this point, that Traveller was largely written, and we
had run a few play-test sessions among trusted friends who could keep their
mouths shut. The sessions were electric with excitement, and we knew we had a
winning game.

We had dinner with Marc's mother (who lived in Lombard), then went to the
theater and waited in line for tickets. There were five theaters in the
multiplex, and four of them were showing Star Wars (the other film was _Gone
in 60 Seconds_ a deservedly forgotten piece of junk). All ten ticket counters
were selling Star Wars tickets -- there was a sign posted saying that anyone
who wanted tickets to the other film should ask the manager -- he had no
takers that I saw.

Marc said to me as we waited in the lobby, literally wall-to-wall with
people: "I know this is going to be great, and you know this is going to be
great, but who told all these other people?

We sat down, the theme music began, and the text began to scroll up the
screen, like a 30s serial -- I thought to myself "This is goping to be _very_
very good or _very_ very bad." Tatooine appeared on screen, the little
starship appeared on screen, and then the star destroyer began unrolling from
overhead. A few seconds later, I had no doubts about the movie whatsoever,
and spent the next two hours totally absorbed.

One further anecdote will illustrate the effect the movie had upon us:

At the scene where the Millenium Falcon went into hyperspace for the first
time, I found myself suddenly on my feet, yelling wildly. I then stopped and
looked sheepishly about, only to see the rest of the movie-goers, all on the
feet and looking around with the same expresion on their faces. We had just
given a movie special effect a standing ovation -- something I have NEVER
seen before ... or since. 

As we were driving home, Marc and I talked. I forget what I said, and I
forget everything he said except one thing: "Loren, Traveller _IS_ Star
Wars." And he was right.

Nostalgia mode off.

 Haec Olim Meminisse Juvabit

Loren Wiseman
    GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 12:39:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Latest IG Update: lingering Q

Joe,

     Thanks for your latest IG update, which clears up (at least for me) a lot
of the vagueness from the most recent Official IG Announcement.  However, I
still have one question.  I went to the IG site and saw that the Traveller
Deluxe edition is now being offered for $30, but no sign or mention of the $10
discount originally offered to those of us who've already shelled out big bucks
for the 1st edition.  Has this offer evaporated?  I surely hope not because,
especially in the wake of dropping $23 on a collection of blank maps, that $10
WILL make the difference between whether I order this book or not.
    I'd like some sort of clarification one way or the other here.

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:32:26 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma

 Another option would be to take blunt trauma only on the roll of
> certain numbers-say for every 6 rolled on damage, take 1 pt. blunt trauma.
> (This is the way GURPS does it).

That's a cool idea!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:32:27 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)

> I don't know why, but I always seem to be disagreeing with Ken.  ;-( 
> Sorry!

That's just because you haven't seen the light!:)


> Rounds which penetrate armor SHOULD NOT deliver blunt trauma in addition to
> the penetrating damage.  If the round penetrates, the left over energy is
> generally enough to slice through without significant resistance.

You are not disagreeing with me, here.  You are disagreeing with the 
T4 blunt trauma rule as it is written.

I was just trying to fix it and stay as close to the printed material 
as possible.  I don't try to make up rules for the sake of making up 
rules.  I really want to play the game as close to the printed rules 
as possible.

Some GMs like to do a lot of work to alter the main rules of the 
games they play.  I just fix things that I can't live with as is.


> > Ken's fix for blunt trauma:
> > 	
> > 	The max damage rule cannot be broken by blunt trauma.
> 
> It shouldn't really apply. 

Again, I just wanted to fix the blunt trauma rule--not eliminate it 
as you are suggesting (for characters in armor).

My intent was to have armor protect you--not have a system where you 
stand to get more damage because you are wearing armor as Dominick 
has pointed out.

If you wear armor, you should take less damage than a character with 
armor.  To me, that's common sense.


> As for armor that does not stop penetration being more wearer friendly than
> armor that does stop the round, YOU GUYS FORGOT MATERIALS!  An armor level
> of THREE has got to be RIGID

Look at your book.  Some material are flexible, and some are rigid.  
Diplo armor, for example, is flexible and does have an AV of 3.

It sounds to me like you have a problem with the descriptions of the 
armor types in the T4 book and the way they handle blunt trauma--not 
my fix for those rules.

> Do you really think that someone wearing combat armor is going to take ANY
> blunt trauma?  Nope.  

Combat armor, which they have not printed stats yet for T4, would be 
rigid armor, and therefore it would not have blunt trauma damage 
applied to it.

T4 pg. 57:  Rigid armor does not allow blunt trauma damage to be 
applied to the character.

I don't have a problem with that.  What everybody's been talking 
about is blunt trauma damage with FLEXIBLE armor.


> BTW, who's original ideas were these:
> 
> 1.  Roll all damage dice for unarmored chars and use the highest 3?
> 2.  Roll all damage dice for armored chars and stop the highest first?

You can look to Mike Sellers, Glenn Grant, and Eris Reddoch for 
those.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:21:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: The Commander's Quick and Dirty Wound Sy

Ok, just to trow this log on the fire and see what happens, I have taken my 
house rules for wounding and consolidated them into this little system. 
 Submitted for your approval, or flames :), I present to you the

 "Commander X Quick and Dirty Wound System"

and now, Number one, the larch....ahem....

Ok heres the system.

If you unarmored, you take full damage up to 3d, 4d for shotguns.  (I 
personaly like this for the bullets,but  for lasers, plasma and explosives, 
no cap.  These weapons should be feared, why else would they be outlawed on 
an average 90% of all Imperial worlds, considering law level 0 or 1?)

Flexable armour gives LIMMITED protection. subtract dammage by the armour 
vaule, anything left over you get.

If there is none left over, i.e. full absorbtion, then take the damage dice, 
drop the d6's and make those points the maxium posible blunt damamge points, 
i.e. if a vest stops a 2d6 round completely, the character takes 1d2 damage.

Ridgid armour gives the MOST protection, if the round doesn't penetrate, no 
dammage, if it does penetrate, apply the remaining dice accordingly.

Moral of the story, you can kill normal folks with your .45, might need a 
M16 for the soldiers in balistic weave and kevlar, and if you see an 
Imperial Marine in Battle Dress and you dont have a plasma thrower, RUN! 
=:-0

Please remember, this is mearly a suggestion, I personaly believe it is the 
simplest meathod to remeber personaly.  If you want to use it in your game, 
go right a head, if not, thats your perogative.  As I like to say, "It's 
your thing, do what you wanna do..."

This has been another message brought to you by X-TEK industries, makers of 
the Combat Hoverboard and coming soon.....The Happy Fun Ball!  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 17:33:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1012] Glenn's D66 Task System

pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant) wrote...

T::>             The D66 Task System
 ::>                    v2.0
 ::>          A simple task roll system
 ::>   compatible with Marc Miller's Traveller (T4)

Glenn, would you please write a few paragraphs describing what you felt
was wrong with the standard task system, and why you decided to follow
these lines for your "fix"?  If you e-mail them to me, I'll put them up
in the Rules and Analyses area of Freelance Traveller.

========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                    jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Optical mice have no balls!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 15:43:22 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star Wars

On Mon, 3 Mar 1997 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> [If you will forgive an old fart a few reminisces, Please}
> 

> We sat down, the theme music began, and the text began to scroll up the
> screen, like a 30s serial -- I thought to myself "This is goping to be _very_
> very good or _very_ very bad." Tatooine appeared on screen, the little
> starship appeared on screen, and then the star destroyer began unrolling from
> overhead. A few seconds later, I had no doubts about the movie whatsoever,
> and spent the next two hours totally absorbed.

You mean your REMEMBER anything that happened after that star destroyer
started 'unrolling'? All I remember is a blur of wonder after that, almost
like a dream.  It wasn't until the second or third time I saw it that I
started rationally thinking...'Ok, this is a movie...', and this was at a
time when films and film-making were huge parts of my life.

I have a friend who saw the movie something like 17 or 18 more times, just
trying to recapture the feeling he had in those first few seconds of the
film. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 14:50:57 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma

At 02:32 PM 3/3/97 +0000, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> Another option would be to take blunt trauma only on the roll of
>> certain numbers-say for every 6 rolled on damage, take 1 pt. blunt trauma.
>> (This is the way GURPS does it).
>
>That's a cool idea!

Yeah, sounds pretty cool.  So would you do something like this?

"Kenneth" (not his real name :) ) is feeling invulnerable in his flex armor
with AV 3.  "Marc" (say) sizes him up in the crosshairs of his 6D
Bandersnatchi gun.  To figure damage, Marc rolls six dice: 6 6 5 3 3 1.
Kenneth removes the _lowest_ three dice from consideration due to the
armor, and then takes 7/7/5 in damage, having added in the 2 pts for trauma
damage.  Then, in the tradition of Traveller players everywhere, he calls
for a medic and a Big Gulp break. :)

Sound plausible?  
- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:07:35 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re:  Q&A with Tim Brown

> But why publish it as hardback? Shouldn't they rather look at the
> price and do a softcover. Another problem i have with this design,
> is that so much has been done on these races, wouldn't most of it be
> a repeat performance of what went before (especially those DGP -
> products, which will prove hard to top!). The choice of race is
> unfortunate, as well, since Aslan and Vargr have been done very well
> already so many old times won't feel the need to buy even more on
> them. I would, however, be very keen on buying data on lesser
> developed races, such as Zhodani, Droyne, K'kree, Hiver and the
> like. They would be much more useful, than "yet another Vargr, Aslan
> book"! I would gladly buy those!

Excuse me, but IG is not marketing this game exclusively to those of
us with a long history in Traveller.  The newbie going to the game
store doesn't even know the Aslan and Vargr exist. I can't imagine
Traveller without these races, can you?  But that is how Traveller
would be presented to new players if IG does not issue "yet another
Vargr/Aslan book"!  If it is not of use to you, don't buy it. 

I look forward to the new product, because then new players that Stu
and I are trying to lure to the game will have reference of their own
to the data, without having to borrow virtually irreplaceable copies
of "old" material.  I also look forward to char gen systems that are
completely compatible to T4 without having to tweak and adjust.

Just my .02Cr

Suz 

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 15:09:07 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)

After reading the various messages on "Blunt Trauma" I thought that
I'd contribute how I understood the rules.

1) Each point of "flexible" armor reduces one die of damage to one
point.

2) The maximum damage done to a human is 3 "dice" of damage.

This means:

	base damage	vs armor	acutal damage
	1D		flex 1		1 point
	2D		flex 1		1D + 1 point
	3D		flex 3		3 points
	4D		flex 3		1D + 2 points
	5D		flex 3		2D + 1 point
	6D		flex 3		3D

Note that once your damage dice equals your armor +3, your armor
doesn't do you any dang good.

Also, I do not roll any dice except those that do damage.  Otherwise
you're effectively violating the maximum damage rule.  The average
of 3D is 11.5, the average of 4D drop one is 13.5.  That's a fair
chunk more damage on an average roll.  The 5D drop two is higher 
still.  

Just my 2Cr

Douglas McCorison

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 18:43:33 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS Docking Rings and Crew - Official Answers requested.

James Dempsey wrote:
> 
>   I have a couple of questions about values and Formulae in SSDS as
> printed in Starships. I sent the first couple of these off last week, but
> didn't get any reply, so I have put them in again. Wildstar and Dave, I
> would appreciate any advice you can provide.

	Hopefully, Wildstar can give you definitive answers. I'm back at my
parents in Virginia, away from my reference, and it'll be a while before
I can get to them (my mom broke her back Saturday).
 
> 1) Looking over the designs submitted for the first THUDD competition
> (including mine), I have noticed something of a discrepancy in the crew
> rules - specifically the steward and medic types.
> QSDS (T4 p95) says that 1 Steward and 1 Medic are required if there is a
> single high passenger.
> Stewards: 1 steward per 8 high psg/cmd crew, and 1 steward per 50 mid
> psg/other crew. Fractions rounded UP.
> Medics: 1 medic per 120 people, and 1 medic per 20 low berths. No rounding
> is mentioned.
> 
> SSDS (Starships p74) says that the requirement is rounded down, unless it
> is less than 1, when it  becomes part of the duties of the Misc crewmember,
> if any. So 1 high passenger, no command and no mid passengers do not need
> a steward, or a medic.

	We were trying to ensure you could run small starships on minimal crew,
which is why SSDS had the round down requirement ...
 
> 2) The other problem is that the steward requirement is calculated per 100
> mid passengers in SSDS, and per 50 mid passengers in QSDS. Which one is
> right?

	Dunno at the moment.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 18:32:04 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Q&A with Tim Brown

> The choice of race is 
>unfortunate, as well, since Aslan and Vargr have been done very well 
>already so many old times won't feel the need to buy even more on 
>them. I would, however, be very keen on buying data on lesser 
>developed races, such as Zhodani, Droyne, K'kree, Hiver and the like.
>They would be much more useful, than "yet another Vargr, Aslan book"! 
>I would gladly buy those!

But, please remember that there are many of us "old timers" who don't have
all the materials you may have personally. Due to my age and financial 
circumstances back when I began playing CT, I was not able to collect all
of the published materials. And when my friend and I sat down to try and
puzzle out the rules for the MegaTraveller books he bought, it turned me so
off Traveller that I didn't buy anything else related to the game until I heard 
about T4 being produced.

And if the main idea of T4 is to also attract new blood into the game so that
it is not just a game for "old timers", I dare say that they won't have much
material from the old days either <g>. So why shouldn't the first major aliens
supplement cover the major 2 aliens in the game?

I will agree with your statement regarding hard- vs soft-cover pricing, I think
they would have noticed a *few* complaints regarding prices voiced on the
list, and realize that a soft-cover (cheaper) version would be nice for those
of us with families now who can't always justify dropping 30 or 40 bucks on
a game book. (It's the part I hate about being an "old timer" the most--getting
older...) <g>


**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 18:47:33 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: missing Web page.

Benjamin Barton wrote:
> 
> what happened to David Golden web page at
> http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Traveller.html

	My internet provider decided only business customers really deserved
any services, so I'm in the process of moving to a new provider. Given
there were 7-8 megs worth of stuff, and I had my (old) email address
hardcoded, it's going to take me a while to get the whole thing over,
especially since I'm dealing with family problems. The new URL is

	www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Traveller.html

	I project another couple of weeks before I get everything over.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:48:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Latest IG Update: lingering Q

On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Trent Smith wrote:

>      Thanks for your latest IG update, which clears up (at least for me) a lot
> of the vagueness from the most recent Official IG Announcement.  However, I
> still have one question.  I went to the IG site and saw that the Traveller
> Deluxe edition is now being offered for $30, but no sign or mention of the $10
> discount originally offered to those of us who've already shelled out big bucks
> for the 1st edition.  Has this offer evaporated?  I surely hope not because,
> especially in the wake of dropping $23 on a collection of blank maps, that $10
> WILL make the difference between whether I order this book or not.
>     I'd like some sort of clarification one way or the other here.

I spoke to Lauren of Imperium Games about this, and this is what I was told:

When placing your order, if you've previously purchased T4, just subtract 
$10.00 per copy on the order.  

If you have any additional questions along these lines, please email IG (see 
their web site for the address).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 18:53:23 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Q&A with Tim Brown

>It won't be a repeat performance for everyone though - IG has this crazy 
>idea that they're reaching out to NEW customers with T4!  =) 

This was my argument, in addition to the fact that a lot of us old customers
don't have everything. BTW, have you heard anything further on the idea being
kicked around at one point about a CD-ROM w/ all the old stuff on it?

>As for why 
>do it in hardback, I'm told the cost difference of doing a book that is 256 
>pp in hardback vs. softback is minimal, so why not do it hardbound? (BTW, 
>the same reasoning was applied in the case of T4; that's why there won't 
>be any more softbacks after the current inventory is sold.  Every copy of 
>T4 produced in the future will be hardbound.  The internet-preordered 
>ones will also be signed and numbered, etc.  But all will be hardbound.)

Didn't realize it would be so large, I was expecting something more along the
lines of Alien Archive or CSC. 256 pages makes it a much easier purchase
to justify to the wife <g>.

>
>> Another unrelated point: I just noticed that M:200 is not included in 
>> the schedule anymore :-(
>
>Which, IMO, is a good thing.  It's better to spend some time exploring 
>and further developing M:0 before bringing out another milieu.

Agreed, I think a large part of the complaints that have surfaced on this list
over the last 7 months have been due to IG rushing products to meet some
damn fool schedule, e.g. Starships' "ships designs pulled out of the editor's
ass", First Survey not matching M0, etc. It is definitely time that they 
started slowing down a little bit to avoid pissing off their customers. I talked
to 2 fellow T4 players in my FLGS this weekend who were sorely PO'd about
the discrepencies in M0/FS. What good will putting out a product in time to
meet a schedule do if no one trusts it enough to buy it?

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 19:08:31 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1017

>Forgive me, but the
>partial view you have of history astonishes me. So, the Spanish were
>exploting the new land and the English were pacefully settling in? Then,
>could you explain why there is a high percentage of native american people
>on Central and South america, while they are almost extinguished in north
>America.
>        Nuff said.

CAN WE PLEASE GET ALL THE POLITICAL WEENIE-WAVING OFF 
THE DAMN LIST!? I don't care whose government is better or worse unless
we are talking about the Imperium vs the Zho! I don't care whose religion is
better or worse unless it's related to the Hresh vs the Vilani! Can we please
get back to discussing 0.1c rocks, broken thrusters, hell even corndogs,
just so long as it is RELATED TO TRAVELLER!!!

If I wanted this stuff I'd read usenet and their "WHY ALL [insert ethnic group/
religion/nationality here] SUCK" postings...

Sorry for the blowup, but the last two weeks signal to noise ratio has gone WAY
too far in the wrong direction....

(Now going back into mostly-lurking mode)
(And I'm someone who hates ALL CAPS and !!!!! with a passion too, so I 
must be upset....)
.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 16:12:25 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)

At 09:04 PM 3/2/97 -0800, you wrote:

>Given it's GDW-inspired heavily military background, this isn't too
>surprising.  OTOH, I think the IG crew would do very well to do things that
>will engage women *players* such as making attractive women in the game (no
>battledress bikinis, please).  I think there is _plenty_ of room for
>positive, strong female roles in Traveller, whether in art, NPCs, or as PCs
>-- think of Athena, Ivanova, Sarah Conner, and maybe Ripley as archetypes. 

Honor Harrington comes to mind, as does Friday.

I'm curious as to how many of you have female players/GMs in your group.
I've always gamed with women, and have found them to be great role-players.
Traveller does seem to be lacking a strong female presence, but makes up for
it by not suffering from the chainmail bikini syndrome. 

It seems to me that IG could make some great strides in gaming by making
some of the major NPCs female.. I noted that all the movers and shakers in
M0 are men, so I've decided that the Big Noble in my version of Fornast
Sector will be a Duchess.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 16:12:28 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Latest IG Update: lingering Q

At 12:39 PM 3/3/97 -0800, Trent Smith wrote:
>However, I
>still have one question.  I went to the IG site and saw that the Traveller
>Deluxe edition is now being offered for $30, but no sign or mention of the $10
>discount originally offered to those of us who've already shelled out big bucks
>for the 1st edition.  Has this offer evaporated?  I surely hope not because,
>especially in the wake of dropping $23 on a collection of blank maps, that $10
>WILL make the difference between whether I order this book or not.
>    I'd like some sort of clarification one way or the other here.

I also find myself wondering about the discount.  It will make the
difference between my ordering it, and waiting until it hits the stores.

When it comes to the signed special editions, I really don't give a damn
about what bells and whistles are attached to the printing.  You could
release a version on fine linen paper, bound in engraved copper covers, and
unless the game inside works, and is reasonably bug-free, it won't be worth
my money.  All I want is a well designed, properly play-tested game, not an
assurance that Marc Miller's blood was added to the ink, and that with every
fifth copy a special "Girls of the Third Imperium" folio has been added.

Now for my question:  I do not, for various reasons, have a credit card.
The IG website swears that I can pre-order with a money-order.

ha.

Can I pre-order products, and then send them a MO fro the proper amount?  I
have done business like this before; usually the company sends email with
the invoice and order number, and I snail mail them a MO with the correct
information.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1018
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 4 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1019



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Star Wars
Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)
Re: Blunt Trauma Damage
Re: Latest IG Update: lingering Q
Re: Q&A with Tim Brown
Re: Focus of the List
Re: All things Nastiness
Re: External Grapples and QSDS
Computer programs...
Re: Computer programs...
TML archive?
[TML] Referee's Screen
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #10180
Re: Jump Space: Hot and Heavy!
re: stars in FS (was re:Re: Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!)
Wome in Traveller
Re: Blunt Trauma Damage
Re: Blunt Trauma
Re: Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)
More Alien Book/newbie debate

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:54:11 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Star Wars

At 07:57 PM 3/3/97 +0000, you wrote:
> <snip>
>As we were driving home, Marc and I talked. I forget what I said, and I
>forget everything he said except one thing: "Loren, Traveller _IS_ Star
>Wars." And he was right.
>
>Nostalgia mode off.
>
> Haec Olim Meminisse Juvabit
>
>Loren Wiseman
>    GDW Emeritus
>
>
>

Which implies that Cleon is ....

Is the Third Imperium what happens when Luke & Han fail to destroy the Death
Star?

Much of the discussions I have read lately imply that most players are in
favor of the Imperium and Cleon.  Should we look for or develop some
materials on those groups who would prefer the Sylean Federation remain a
federation instead of merrily assuming you can inherit the right to rule? 

Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy? 

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 01:00:54 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> 
> >From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
> 
> >"ostensibly".  If one looks closely, it usually seems that the religious
> >aspect is merely an excuse for an economic one.
> 
> >> The Conquistadors in Central/South America
> >Blantant search for the gold of the aztecs and incas, and colonial
> >exploitation of the "New World".
> >
> >> The New world settlers trying to convert the native american indians
> >So they could settle peacefully on their new land
> 
>         IMHO, nobody in this list can say that I am heat-headed nor usually
> speak with anger, and I have never entered in a discussion that is not
> Traveller in content, but this is a bit too much. Forgive me, but the
> partial view you have of history astonishes me. So, the Spanish were
> exploting the new land and the English were pacefully settling in? Then,
> could you explain why there is a high percentage of native american people
> on Central and South america, while they are almost extinguished in north
> America.
>         Nuff said.
> 
>         Carlos.
- --It does have to be said that the main reason that there are very few
Native Americans in North America is the fact that the US did it best to
wipe them out.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:36:00 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma Damage

David Reed says,

>> Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>> The max damage rule states that a character cannot take more than 3 
>> D6 of damage (certain things break this rule--explosions, automatic 
>> fire, shotguns).  This should include blunt trauma damage.
>
>Rounds which penetrate armor SHOULD NOT deliver blunt trauma in addition to
>the penetrating damage.  If the round penetrates, the left over energy is
>generally enough to slice through without significant resistance.
>Rounds which do not penetrate but are stopped FULLY by armor should deliver
>blunt trauma.

Excellent point.

[Interesting horses-mouth stuff about flex armor deleted]

>BTW, who's original ideas were these:
>1.  Roll all damage dice for unarmored chars and use the highest 3?
>2.  Roll all damage dice for armored chars and stop the highest first?

>I always like to give credit!

Sounds like something I said, though actually my actual suggestion was:

1. Unarmored PC takes the highest 3D of the full number of dice.
2. Flexible-armor absorbs its rating in hit dice; roll only the remaining dice.

But whatever - your point is well taken: if the round penetrates the armor,
there should be NO blunt force damage. How about this, then:

1. If the weapon's damage rating is equal to or lower than the rating of
the armor, the hit dice are absorbed and the PC receives 1 point of blunt
force damage per die absorbed. However:

2. If the weapon's damage rating is higher than the flex armor, the round
penetrates and thus the armor has NO effect. Character takes full damage,
up to the 3D limit.

Sound realistic? It'll do, at least until the penetration rules appear in
_Emperor's Arsenal_.

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:06:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Latest IG Update: lingering Q

On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> 
> I also find myself wondering about the discount.  It will make the
> difference between my ordering it, and waiting until it hits the stores.

Just to re-iterate: Lauren said the $10 discount is still on.  
Apparently, one just fills in that amount on the order form.  If further 
questions arise,email IG directly for information.

> Now for my question:  I do not, for various reasons, have a credit card.
> The IG website swears that I can pre-order with a money-order.

I'd suggest emailing IG to ask about it.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:12:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Q&A with Tim Brown

On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Paul D. Owensby wrote:

> This was my argument, in addition to the fact that a lot of us old customers
> don't have everything. BTW, have you heard anything further on the idea being
> kicked around at one point about a CD-ROM w/ all the old stuff on it?

No. But email Dave Bullock (webmaster@imperiumgames.com if I recall 
correctly).  It's his product proposal - he probably has the latest info 
on it.


> Didn't realize it would be so large, I was expecting something more along the
> lines of Alien Archive or CSC. 256 pages makes it a much easier purchase
> to justify to the wife <g>.

I was expect 112 pages, too.  Apparently, they want this to be the final, 
comprehensive resource on Aslan and Vargr.  =)

> Agreed, I think a large part of the complaints that have surfaced on this list
> over the last 7 months have been due to IG rushing products to meet some
> damn fool schedule, e.g. Starships' "ships designs pulled out of the editor's
> ass", First Survey not matching M0, etc. It is definitely time that they 
> started slowing down a little bit to avoid pissing off their customers. I talked
> to 2 fellow T4 players in my FLGS this weekend who were sorely PO'd about
> the discrepencies in M0/FS. What good will putting out a product in time to
> meet a schedule do if no one trusts it enough to buy it?

The goal of Tim Brown (project coordinator for T4) is to get to a point 
where each project is alloted 6 months, by the end of this year (but 
maintaining the 1 book a month scheduling idea - thus, you have six 
designers/design teams working at any one time).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 18:03:33 -0800
From: "Wes Payne" <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

Thus spake "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>:

> Frederick Paul Kiesche III writes: 
> 
> >Folks this is the Traveller Mailing List. Not the Blackmoor List. Or the

> >History of RPG List. Or the ID4 List. Or the Babylon Five List. Or the 
> >I'm Damn Proud to be American/I Hate All Americans Lists!

[snip]

>    Discussing the combination on Strephon's personal safe at the
> Imperial Palace is more stimulating than relativistic rocks.  Problem
> is, there are no true babes in Traveller (characters, not players). 
> There was the "Lady In Black" on the cover of TNE, but she turned out to
> merely be a psionic projection.  Shoshanna Dahnara-Avila from Children
> of Earth vaugely resembles a 40-something Phoebe Cates, but unless you
> have been following events in Traveller Chronicle, you won't know about
> her either.  No, I fear that the Traveller universe is in general a
> truly male dominated culture where the women are only mildly attractive
> and stay out of the way.  No wonder Norris was AC only.

Of course, this beats the other end of the spectrum, the lurid, pulpy
"Overbusty Naked Amazon Space-Bimbos" atmosphere.  We're darn lucky in that
regard.  Go into any comics shop and take a look at the current stuff -- if
it's not some muscle-encrusted Rambo clone, it's a silicone-enhanced Barbie
Doll with just enough lint on to cover the naughty bits.  That's fine if
you've got a thirteen-year-old set of gonads and the hormones to go with
them, but I, for one, would like to have rulebooks that open easily to each
and every page, even after heavy usage.

I can deal with Plain Janes in my Traveller rulebooks.  I've got Playboy
Newsstand Specials for the 'other stuff'...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 18:16:12 -0800
From: "Wes Payne" <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness

Thus spake "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>:

[major snippage]
 
> Obligatory Traveller Reference;
> 
> I figure the Zhodani in 1100 are starting to run out of natural resources
> and looking towards the Spinward Marches for more.  Oh and we all know
> what motivation the Aslan have for moving into places.

It turns out that the FFW was, more or less, a Zhodani reaction to Imperial
expansionism.  If your theory is correct, then why did the 'Joes' not take
advantage of the Rebellion and swallow up the Spinward Marches?  No, future
history (hah!) indicates that the Zhodani's major kick was containment of a
giant, cheesy load of notorious liars and emotional cripples.

In view of that perspective, the Exodus of 1202 had to be doubly
embarrassing for them...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:35:01 -0800
From: "Wes Payne" <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: External Grapples and QSDS

Thus spake Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>:

> FF&S excerpt:

[snip]
 
> If we insist on supporting external grapples (and partly-external docking
> rings) in QSDS, option 2 does less damage to the overall consistency. 
The
> cost differences for the slightly smaller hull is usually trivial, and we
> can always handwave additional 'standard' hulls into existence.

Well, I may be a day late and a dollar short on this, but here goes:

According to FF&S (for what it's worth), craft in docking rings are
internal, but there's not one extra cubic centimeter of space available for
maintenance access and the like (as compared to the extra space that
hangars make available for these purposes).  At least that's the way it was
treated in the TNE ship designs.  The Mercenary Cruiser, as presented in
TNE (and earlier flavors as well, I think), had two cutters which were
internal (even though their back ends stuck out a little ways), and there
was internal space set aside for storing the extra modules as well.  Of
course, this means that such sundry tasks as changing modules become a
royal pain in the patoosh, and forget about doing that while maneuvering.

What does this mean now?  It means that you don't have to do any
handwringing about how QSDS deals with (or doesn't deal with) grapples,
because you don't need them for the cutters.

Of course, this brings up some interesting questions about how the cutters
and modules are handled.  First of all, you definitely would want to launch
the cutters before landing the merc. cruiser itself on any surface, since
its thruster-down orientation would absolutely prohibit any launch or
recovery.  Module exchange would have to go something like this:

1.  Launch cutter.
2.  Cutter releases module (keep that puppy tethered!)
3.  Recover cutter.
4.  Install new module.
5.  Launch cutter.
6.  Recover old module and place it in storage area.
7.  Recover cutter.

I had to do a floor plan for one in my TNE campaign, since I didn't have
access to any existing floorplans, and they'd probably be at variance with
the TNE version of that ship anyway (as it was, I wound up discarding the
'standard' design in favor of my own).  Since the decks were perpendicular
to the line of thrust, and the cutters docked with what was the 'rear' of
the cruiser in flight (or the bottom while landed), the cutters were also
perpendicular to the usual deck orientation, as were the storage spaces for
the extra modules -- they were 'below' the cutters from their POV, but
'beside' them from the cruiser's POV.  Going from one orientation to the
other involved using a large section of deck which rotated inside a
cylinder and performed the 90-degree rotation (while standing on it, your
'world' moved, but you stayed rock steady).

The last bit of useful information:  Proper mission planning is critical. 
You can't expect to have time to change out the cargo/fuel pod for the
laser and missile pod during combat...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:53:15 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Computer programs...

I know that Wildstar's page has some info about 'Project Dulinor', I know
there's a java-based subsector/sector viewer, and I know Core is working
on some stuff...  But I'm curious to know if anybody else has done any
work on Traveller computer programs for their own use.  And, if so, what? 
Or, alternately, what people would find useful.  I have my own ideas about
what's useful, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with
anybody else...

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://www.visi.com/~danger/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 20:53:50 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Computer programs...

At 08:53 PM 3/3/97 -0600, danger@visi.com wrote:
>I know that Wildstar's page has some info about 'Project Dulinor', I know
>there's a java-based subsector/sector viewer, and I know Core is working
>on some stuff...  But I'm curious to know if anybody else has done any
>work on Traveller computer programs for their own use.  And, if so, what? 
>Or, alternately, what people would find useful.  I have my own ideas about
>what's useful, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with
>anybody else...

I asked about this recently on the list, and didn't get much response.  I'm
not sure what's happening with Project Dulinor currently -- anyone know?

I downloaded the Alpha software on Wildstar's page; looks like some
interesting stuff.  Where's the Java applet though?  

And, um, who or what is CORE?  I've seen many references on the list, but
no definitions (we really need a FAQ...).
- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:03:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: TML archive?

I seem to recall that the TML is archived on the web somewhere, but a bit
of poking around has yielded no clues as to where.  Could someone please
enlighten me?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:27:19 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: [TML] Referee's Screen

IG's website now lists the T4 Referee's Screen.  I've not yet seen it.  Any
comments/observations from anybody as to content and usefulness?  Tx! - Bill

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 01:27:04 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #10180

>Now for my question:  I do not, for various reasons, have a credit card.
>The IG website swears that I can pre-order with a money-order.
>
>ha.
>
>Can I pre-order products, and then send them a MO fro the proper amount?  I
>have done business like this before; usually the company sends email with
>the invoice and order number, and I snail mail them a MO with the correct
>information.

I have a similiar problem, in that I have several credit cards, but do not feel 
comfortable sending the numbers over the 'net, especially to a site that makes
Netscape begin screeching about being unsecured. I would rather give my money
straight to IG though, instead of my Not-so-FLGS. Can orders be sent by 
snail mail or telephone? Or can I send my CC number via snail mail or 
phone and then order using the website?

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 23:23:46 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jump Space: Hot and Heavy!

On 03/03/97 at 06:03 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

> << During the next week this "fuel", dissipates slowly into hyperspace
> thinning the surrounding shell.  After about 1 week (and it varies
> because more or less "fuel"..of varying purity is injected, the "fuel"
> dissipates at slightly different rates, and the local conditions of
> hyperspace are never really known) the shell has thinned to the point
> where the ship POPS out of hyperspace and back into normal space. >>

> Good idea, but it doesn't really fit with canon (which says the 'fuel' 
> really *is* fuel).                       -------

Geeze Louise, Andrew!  I'll have to sic my heretic army on you.  <g>

Seriously, the way I do things doesn't always follow <yuck--petooo> canon,
and I'm happy with it.  If others do things differently then that's fine
too. 

BTW, did you notice (or maybe I left it out) that the quantity of 'fuel' is
10% of ship volume regardless of jump distance?  Did I mention that the
distance a ship can jump is related to sensor quality (and operator skill),
not the size of the jump drive?
<mumble, grumble, take that canon of yours and shove it in a cannon
and...mumble, mumble ;->


Eris,
 the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 02:13:55 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: re: stars in FS (was re:Re: Iceberg Lettuce and the Scum Suckers!)

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes: 

>Does "M9d" really indicate a M9 "white" dwarf? There's no such animal;
>the universe isn't old enough for white dwarfs to have cooled down to M9
>temperatures. (The coolest white dwarf I personally know of is 5000 K or so,
>though I'm not a white dwarf specialist.)

   My understanding is that there is one known M type white dwarf, and
that one is a borderline K.  Actually, I believe many professional
astronomers now use a different classification scheme than the old
"OBAFGKM" scale (one based on the composition of the white dwarf),
though the old scale is still popular with amateur astronomers.  But you
are correct, the age of the Universe tends to disallow such dim white
dwarfs, particularly in our part of the galaxy.

>On the other hand, a brown dwarf could happily survive inside the envelope of
>a red giant.

   How?  You would expect that as the main sequence star gradually
expanded outward into the red giant phase, putting the brown dwarf ever
closer to the surface of the star, that the temperatures would rise to
the point that the brown dwarf would gradually dissolve.  Also, once the
star and the brown dwarf make contact, any remaining mass left over from
the brown dwarf should be absorbed by the star, perhaps even very
briefly extending the star's period on the main sequence (think of it as
the ultimate vampire movie--the star draws hydrogen from the "victim"
until its life force is extinguished).  At any rate, let's assume that
the brown dwarf survives all that somehow.  How does it survive the
transition from red giant to white dwarf?  Red giants never die
peacefully.  There's shelling of outer layers, and all sorts of other
violence occurring that should chew that brown dwarf into pieces in
short order.

>A brown dwarf in the innermost orbit of a white dwarf is perfectly
>plausible - my PhD thesis advisor spent several years looking for them.

   One possibility I'll have to give you, courtesy of the latest in
astronomical theory (which means its far from proven): a brown dwarf
that started out in a farther orbit, survived all the violence, but is
now gradually spiraling in toward the white dwarf (this would also
explain the prescence of the moon "Shorts").  "Shorts" is not going to
be a pleasent place to live a few million years from now (give or take a
few million years) as the brown dwarf finally finishes it death dance
and goes up in a big ***bang*** when it finally makes contact with the
white dwarf.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:26:49 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Wome in Traveller

I don't know much about Wome, except that it's a city in Itawy...as for 
women, however: 
I spoke to a LTP (lady Traveller player) recently on this subject, and 
she said that one of the things that she liked about Traveller was the 
fact that whether a character was male or female was basically 
irrelevant. Gender is just a detail that you tack on at the end for 
colour, if you like...in fact, recently I had some players encounter a 
human NPC who was neither male nor female, just as a red herring. 

As for the lack of female characters in Traveller - I think that T4 is 
fixing up the balance. The Milieu Zero book introduced a couple of strong 
female characters, both in the current setting and the past history of 
the Imperium. For example, the last governor of the Rule of Man on Sylea, 
Cleon's nemesis for many years in the Sylean Grand Senate, and of course 
there has always been the Empress Arbellatra, who wiped the floor with a 
whole bunch of brawling Barracks Emperors at the end of the Civil War. 

For those that haven't played with a 'girl player' before - I thoroughly 
recommend it, but you'd better be prepared for quality character interaction 
rather than plain old combat rolling. 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...

"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:13:09 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma Damage

> But whatever - your point is well taken: if the round penetrates the armor,
> there should be NO blunt force damage.

Well, bless my horses.  Do you know that T4 actually addresses this 
wasted kinetic energy point in one sentence on pg. 57?

Yep, that's right.  It says, "higher damage attacks (meaning more 
than 3 D6 of damage for a single attack) tend to punch right through 
their target, wasting the extra energy.

Food for thought in this blunt trauma discussion.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:13:10 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma

> "Kenneth" (not his real name :) ) is feeling invulnerable in his flex armor
> with AV 3.  "Marc" (say) sizes him up in the crosshairs of his 6D
> Bandersnatchi gun.  To figure damage, Marc rolls six dice: 6 6 5 3 3 1.
> Kenneth removes the _lowest_ three dice from consideration due to the
> armor, and then takes 7/7/5 in damage, having added in the 2 pts for trauma
> damage.  Then, in the tradition of Traveller players everywhere, he calls
> for a medic and a Big Gulp break. :)
> 
> Sound plausible?  

If I were planning to use this rule (I'm going to use my original 
blunt trauma fix), I do it this way.

K gets hit by M with a 6D gun.  M rolls only 3 D6 because the armor 
negated the other 3 dice.  

If any 6's are rolled in the 3 damage dice, they count as damage and 
they add one point each for blunt trauma.

	A roll of 6-1-5 would yield 12 pts of damage +1 pt of blunt trauma.

	A roll of 6-6-6 (yikes!) would yield 18 + 3 pts of damage.

That is, if I were to play this rule.  I think that it is neat, but 
it is not for me.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:13:08 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)

> After reading the various messages on "Blunt Trauma" I thought that
> I'd contribute how I understood the rules.
> 
> 1) Each point of "flexible" armor reduces one die of damage to one
> point.
> 
> 2) The maximum damage done to a human is 3 "dice" of damage.
> 
> This means:
> 
> 	base damage	vs armor	acutal damage
> 	1D		flex 1		1 point
> 	2D		flex 1		1D + 1 point
> 	3D		flex 3		3 points
> 	4D		flex 3		1D + 2 points
> 	5D		flex 3		2D + 1 point
> 	6D		flex 3		3D

This is not how I read the T4 rules.  They give a clear example on 
pg. 57 dealing with a cutlass (dam 3D) and mesh armor (flexible armor 
AV 2).  The problem is that this example is unclear in that it can be 
used to support both of our very different readings of the blunt 
trauma rule.

One of my players read it the way you did, and I explained to him why 
that reading must be faulty.

To explain this, let's look at your example above.  The rule on pg. 
57 says that "if the armor is flexible, each negated die is treated 
as a single wound of one point."

Clearly, in your 6D example above, you are not giving one point of 
damage for each negated die.

In your example, the flex 3 armor has negated 3 dice from the 6D 
weapon, so by definition of the rule, you should add +3 damage points 
to the character.

They just didn't make it clear that these blunt trauma points are in 
addition to the 3 D max damage rule.  There's were the confusion is.

But, as I told my player, I could see that interpretation as an 
optional rule fix designed to cure the problem with blunt trauma.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:25:16 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: More Alien Book/newbie debate

With reference to your message with the subject:
   "Re: Q&A with Tim Brown"
- -> The IG Edition of TLWH will be produced in 2 parts.  It will be updated 
- -> by the original authors (David Burden and Andy Lilly) so that it fits 
- -> with the current sector map as presented in First Survey.  Other than 
- -> that, no changes are currently planned.
Any chance of getting an update, maybe just a small page that notes 
what has been changed and how! 
- -> 
- -> > But why publish it as hardback? Shouldn't they rather look at the 
- -> > price and do a softcover. Another problem i have with this design, is 
- -> > that so much has been done on these races, wouldn't most of it be a 
- -> > repeat performance of what went before (especially those 
- -> 
- -> It won't be a repeat performance for everyone though - IG has this crazy 
- -> idea that they're reaching out to NEW customers with T4!  =)  As for why 
Still, the information is already out there! If you look, you can 
find it. Over here, many stores still stock the MT Alien supplements 
(sadly, this can't be said about The Flaming Eye by DGP- i should 
have bought it when i saw it-doh!)
Even if reaching out to newbies, which i think is very good and which 
i appreciate a lot, shouldn't they try to maximise their sales 
probabilities? To that goal, it would be better to do something 
everyone would want. I for my part was very disappointed when DGP 
cancelled their Traveller support which meant the end for the Alien 
Sourcebooks. I wanted to see more on the other races, too, badly so!
I just don't feel it's wise to to a third version of those handbooks, 
esecially considering the quality of the predecessor. Additionally, 
won't DGP rerelease the old stuff anymore (any news on that, 
anyone??). Because if they will, it means that we WILL have duplicate 
manuals out there with duplicate info!
- -> do it in hardback, I'm told the cost difference of doing a book that is 256 
- -> pp in hardback vs. softback is minimal, so why not do it hardbound? (BTW, 
- -> the same reasoning was applied in the case of T4; that's why there won't 
- -> be any more softbacks after the current inventory is sold.  Every copy of 
- -> T4 produced in the future will be hardbound.  The internet-preordered 
- -> ones will also be signed and numbered, etc.  But all will be hardbound.)
If that is so, then i guess it's o.k.! Some time ago, there was a 
German product, which reprinted all the old GDW Alien Modules in 
Hardback and one book. Although i only saw it once, i liked it a lot!
 > 


- -> > Another unrelated point: I just noticed that M:200 is not included in 
- -> > the schedule anymore :-(
- -> 
- -> Which, IMO, is a good thing.  It's better to spend some time exploring 
- -> and further developing M:0 before bringing out another milieu.
Maybe so, but choice is a good thing, too!  
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----


Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1019
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 4 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1020



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Patrol Cruiser and Launch
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Subject: Heresy
TML Archive and stuff
Brown Dwarfs in Close Orbit
Traveller on IRC
Off-topic: credit cards over the Net
Re: Q&A with Tim Brown
RC World Write up:RA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 13:34:10 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Patrol Cruiser and Launch

	Here is a re-designed versions of 400-ton Patrol cruiser and
	30-ton launch. I made these because there appeared to be major
	errors in the Patrol Cruiser found in T4 rulebook. T4 PC is
	listed as having only 200-ton displacement, but some of the
	values show that it actually uses 400-ton hull.

	The Whippet-Class Patrol Cruiser is basically a TL-12 T-plate
	version of the PC found in Brilliant Lances. However the
	Whippet has much thicker armor than the original PC.

	The 4G thrust rating, long range sensors, two MDFs and long
	range weapons allows Whippet to "stand off" many potential
	TL-12 pirate ships. ("Standing off" means firing and hitting
	from ranges beyond enemy's weapon range. This works least in
	Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider starship combat systems,
	but I haven't tried T4 ship combat.)

	The date is given both in BL and T4 (W)USP formats.

- ---

Whippet-Class Patrol Cruiser

General Data
Displacement: 400 tons			Hull Armor: 80
Length: 66.1 meters			Volume: 5600 m3
Price: MCr 577.4   			Target Size: S
Configuration: Airframed Needle     Tech Level: 12
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 7813.6 / 7616.9

Engineering Data
Power Plant: 865 MW Fusion Power Plant, 1 year duration (129.75 m3)
Jump Performance: 3 (1680 m3)
G-Rating: 4G Thruster plate (196 MW/G),
	Auxiliary 1G High Efficiency AG (56 MW/G)
G-Turns: Unlimited
Maint: 276

Electronics
Computer: 3xTL-12 Fibre-optic computer (0.8 MW)
Commo: Maser (Unlimited; 0.6 MW), Radio (10 hex; 10 MW)
Avionics: Imaging EMS, IGS positioning, 160 km/h NOE
Sensors: AEMS (10 hex; 27.5 MW), PEMS Folding array (6 hex; 0.25 MW)
ECM/ECCM: EM Masking (5.6 MW)
Controls: No bridge, 7 normal workstations

Armament
Offensive: 2xLTR-121-10-2 (3.361 MW; No crew),
	2xMissile Turret (0.15 MW; 1 crew),
	56 m3 (4 tons) missile magazine (8 space combat missiles)
Defensive: None
Master Fire Directors: 2xTL-12 (4 Diff Mods; 10 hex; Msl 10 hex;
	3.25 MW; 1 crew)

Accommodations
Life Support: Extended (0.7276 MW), Gravitic Compensators (18.19 MW)
Crew: 12 (2xManeuver, 1xElectronics, 1xEngineer, 4xGunnery,
	3xMaintenance, 1xCommand)
Crew Accommodations: 6xSmall Stateroom (0.5 kW), 1xBunk
Passengers: None
Passenger Accommodations: None
Cargo: 280 m3 (20 tons), 1 Large Hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1x30-ton minimal hangar
Air Locks: 4

Notes
Total Fuel Tankage: 1809.75 m3 (129.3 tons).
Fuel scoops (10% of ship surface), fills tanks in 0.81 hours
Fuel purification machinery (1.2MW), 54.29 hours to refine 1809.75 m3.
Price and mass includes one fully loaded 30-ton launch.


Launch

General Data
Displacement: 30 tons			Hull Armor: 30
Length: 27.87 meters			Volume: 420 m3
Price: MCr 26.3				Target Size: VS
Configuration: Streamlined Needle	Tech Level: 12
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 413.5 / 342.9

Engineering Data
Power Plant: 52 MW Fusion Power Plant, 1 year duration (7.8 m3)
Jump Performance: 0 (0 m3)
G-Rating: 4G Thruster plate (10.5 MW/G),
	Auxiliary 1G High Efficiency AG (3 MW/G)
G-Turns: Unlimited
Maint: 14

Electronics
Computer: 2xTL-12 Standard computer (0.4 MW)
Commo: Maser (Unlimited; 0.6 MW), Radio (1 hex; 1 MW)
Avionics: Imaging EMS, IGS positioning, 160 km/h NOE
Sensors: AEMS (0.01 hex; 5 MW), PEMS (1 hex; 0.03 MW)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: No bridge, 2 normal workstations

Armament
None

Accommodations
Life Support: Extended (0.0808 MW), Gravitic Compensators (2.02 MW)
Crew: 2 (1xManeuver, 1xElectronics)
Crew Accommodations: Cockpit
Passengers: None
Passenger Accommodations: None
Cargo: 280 m3 (20 tons), 1 Large Hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: None
Air Locks: 1

Notes
Total Fuel Tankage: 7.8 m3 (0.6 tons).

- ---

Whippet-Class Patrol Cruiser (Starship-V2)

Tons: 400 (Needle AF)	Volume: 5600 m3		Cost: 577.42 MCr
Crew: 12    		High/Mid Pass: 0  	Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 20 tons		Controls: Fib		TL: 12

8[10] Size  			3 Jump Drive (40 tons/Pc Fuel)
2x LasTurr (+4) 1/38-38-25-14	4 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 784 MW)
1x Twin MissTurr (+4) 4/4	4.3 Power Plant (865 MW)
w/ 12 Guided DetLas 1d3 6G12	129.3 Fuel (Scoop 160, Refine 2.4)
      				0 Meson Screen (0 MW)
      				0 Sandcasters (0 cans)
1x min hangar (30-ton Launch)	0 Nuclear Damper
      				10A 4[6]P 0J Sensors/EM Masking
      				30 Armor, 14 Structure

Crew: 2 Maneuver, 1 Electronics, 1 Engineer, 4 Gunnery, 3 Maintenance,
	1 Command
Accom: 6 small staterooms, 1 bunks
Average density: 1.4 ton/m3.
Notes: Price includes one 30-DT launch,
Weapons: 2 missile capable MFDs, 2 laser turrets (LTR-121-10-2),
2 missile turrets, 4 DT missile magazine.

Folding PEMS sensor has range 4 when antenna is folded down, and
range 6 when the antenna is opened. When the large (90 m diameter)
antenna is opened, the ship is considered to have size 10 

If accelerations is limited to 3G, lasers can be powered to ROF 100.
Lasers can be fired as two separate MFD-controlled turrets,

2x Laser turret (+4) 1/38-38-25-12 (ROF 10)
2x Laser turret (+6) 1/38-38-25-12 (each powered to ROF 100)

or as one MFD-controlled twin battery, while the other MFD is used to
control missiles

1x Laser Battery (+4) 1/38-38-25-12 (ROF 10)
1x Laser Battery (+7) 1/38-38-25-12 (powered to ROF 100)

Cargo hold may be fitted with up to 10 modular staterooms. Patrol
cruisers used by customs service have usually 5 extra staterooms
to house the customs inspection boarding party.  


Launch

Ship or Class Name and Type (Starship-V2)

Tons: 30 (Needle SL)	Volume: 420 m3		Cost: 26.324 MCr
Crew: 2			High/Mid Pass: 0  	Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 20 tons		Controls: Std		TL: 12

7 Size			0 Jump drive
0 Fire Control		4 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 42 MW)
      			3.5 Power Plant (52 MW)
      			0.6 Fuel
      			0 Meson Screen (0 MW)
      			0 Sandcasters (0 cans)
      			0 Nuclear Damper
      			0.01A 1P 0J Sensors
      			15 Armor, 4 Structure

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics
Accom: Cockpit
Average density: 1 ton/m3.
Notes: The unusual "15 Armor" comes from the BL armor value "AV 30".
Cargo hold may be fitted with up to 186 restricted seats, 112 cramped
seats, 80 adequate seats, 40 roomy seats or 20 bunks.



        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 08:15:04 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

Dane "Danger" Johnson writes:

>How about native plantlife which doesn't require a 'normal' earthlike
>environment, but which is, by an odd quirk, wholly compatible with 
>human biology and quite edible?

and Leonard Erickson writes:

>Or they raise a native plant that uses ethyl alcohol as an anti-freeze.
>Picture something like 150 proof raspberries. They'd selll *real* well
>on the luxury market. 
>
>Or, for that matter, there's nothing that says that "agricultural
>products" have to be *edible*. They can be starting points for
>producing drugs, fibers, even plastics.

   But even assuming that such a world exists, why go to all the
trouble, when it is so much easier (and less expensive to harvest) to
just throw some seeds into the soil on a more habitable world and wait
for them to sprout?  Even the "alcohol plants" would be much easier to
simply genetically engineer for warmer temps and take to another world
to grow.

   Making money at farming is difficult enough as it is, even in the
56-58th century.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 09:30:20 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Subject: Heresy

Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)

>> Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->
>> 
>> Welcome to the outer darkness.
>> 
>> Eris

Count me among the Heretics then...Designers should be able to use whatever
dice they see fit, within reason. (Besides, I thought the TML creed was
"Background Uber Alles, mechanics be d*mned).


Loren Wiseman
    GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 09:34:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: TML Archive and stuff

Somebody asked about the location of the TML archive...
ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/MailingListArchive/Traveller/

Also, someone said 'What Java Subsector Viewer?' and I'd just like to say
"Oh! Ooooh! Overhere!!" :
http://www.magmacom.com/~ehenry/traveller/viewer.html

With the new black'n'red style.

Enjoy!
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 09:58:50 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Brown Dwarfs in Close Orbit

>   One possibility I'll have to give you, courtesy of the latest in
>astronomical theory (which means its far from proven): a brown dwarf
>that started out in a farther orbit, survived all the violence, but is
>now gradually spiraling in toward the white dwarf (this would also
>explain the prescence of the moon "Shorts").  "Shorts" is not going to
>be a pleasent place to live a few million years from now (give or take a
>few million years) as the brown dwarf finally finishes it death dance
>and goes up in a big ***bang*** when it finally makes contact with the
>white dwarf.

Based on the fact that we have actually seen a really big planet,
fairly close to its star, in the case of 51 Peg. Some theorists have
modified the theory to suggest that the planet will eventually stop
spiraling in and come to a stable orbit.  There reason they came up
with this theory, is that it is kind of hard to believe that in all the
stars we have ever looked at, the first planet we discover is just
moments (astronomically speaking) away from plunging in to the star.  

Personally, I think the theorists like coming up with theories to fit
incomplete data sets.  But then again, I am an observer.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is yellow, smooth and deadly?
A:Shark infested pudding.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:11:36 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Greetings!

Ok, lets see if I can get everything right this time!

Topic   Ecology 101
Speaker:  Craig Berry
Date:  Thursday, March 6, 1997
Time:  7:00pm CST
Place:  IRC, www.imperiumgames.com, port 6665 or 6666

Bring your knowledge, questions or attention span as appropriate.  

As always, if you need help getting online with us, please email me.  
I will do whatever I can to help you join us.

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 07:23:26 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Off-topic: credit cards over the Net

Note: this message is mostly not about Traveller

At 01:27 AM 3/4/97 -0500, Paul D. Owensby wrote:
>I have a similiar problem, in that I have several credit cards, but do not
feel 
>comfortable sending the numbers over the 'net, especially to a site that
makes
>Netscape begin screeching about being unsecured. 

This is a personal decision, of course, but I've really changed my feelings
on this.  Of course you should always be careful with your credit card
number, but I don't think there's any reason to focus on sending it over
the net as a particular point of exposure.  It is possible to sniff email,
and slightly more difficult to sniff Netscape messages, but it's just a
whole lot easier to get CC numbers other lo-tech ways -- from restaurant
employees or their garbage, for example.  

We routinely took CC orders from thousands of people over the Net where I
used to work, and we did not have a -single- case of a number being stolen,
despite a relatively high percentage of disgruntled hackers in the
population (who made their presence known in other ways).  In fact, the
only problem we had was from the other direction:  I would emphasize to IG
that they should *DEFINITELY* have a CC number checker so that they do not
ship orders made with fraudulent numbers.  We saw many more of those than
we had expected.  

I would rather give my money
>straight to IG though, instead of my Not-so-FLGS. Can orders be sent by 
>snail mail or telephone? Or can I send my CC number via snail mail or 
>phone and then order using the website?

This last option might be possible (I don't know how IG is handling this),
but if it's not, understand that it is *far* more labor-intensive (and thus
expensive) to take an order over the phone than it is to take one over the
web.  


ObTrav:  how do you handle this sort of situation in your game?  Do you
assume perfect encryption?  What if I'm Soc15 but my wealth is in another
system several jumps away?  I played in one campaign that had banks
(effectively ATMs) built as standard issue into most starships; you'd load
them up from a master account while in port, and then have to live off of
that (fairly secure) money until you got back.  This situation came up a
lot historically, btw, which is why "letters of credit" from one bank to
another (from London to Florence, say) were such a big deal.

Anyone for "Count of Monte Christo", T4-style?  Probably some good
adventures in that. :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:30:21 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Q&A with Tim Brown

Zhodani agents report that Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

- -> Perhaps, after Andy and David go through the process, they will share 
- -> that with us.  But it's up to them and IG, really.
Oh, I hope i hope i hope i hope!!
PleasepleasepleaseAndyareyoureadingthis?

- -> Vargr play a large role in M0, and Aslan play a big role in M200.  Thus, 
They do? Oh i can't wait to hold the book in my hands (only 20 days 
till i can go home ;-)
- -> the first Aliens hardback deals with them.  It is support material for 
- -> the first two Milieu books.
Put this way, it's logical! I can relate to that, not agree with it, 
but understand it!
- -> 
- -> Following that, there will be approximately 2 more Aliens hardbounds, 
- -> perhaps more.  Each will detail 2-3 of the most important alien races in 
- -> Traveller (Hivers, K'Kree, etc.).  Detailing those races now, during the 
- -> M0 era, doesn't make as much sense.
Oh'frabjous joy-calloh-callay!
Just tell IG i can't wait! Gimmegimme!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 10:39:52 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: RC World Write up:RA

 
Hi,

Here is a write up on the world Ra, set in the Reformation Coalition circa 1202.
It is by John Muir Macphearson, Paul Walker, Rich Ostorero and myself.
If you are playing in the Old Expanses at an early time, it gives a bit
of history about the world that might be useful.  If you play in a
totally different part of space or time, you could use some of the
holidays at the end on different planets.  There is room for
improvements and additions, so feel free to comment.
The one thing that is missing, is an extended system write up. I find
making those up really boring, and never got around to it. Anyone out
there want to do it. Please!

Lewis Roberts

PS. If you missed the previous write ups check out:
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger/trav.htm
for more write ups by the same crew of hooligans.
 
- -------------------------------------------- 
Ra E68659A-6
          Size: Medium  D=9600km                Atmosphere: Dense
          Hydrographics:60%                     Population: 200,000
          Government: Impersonal Bureaucracy    Law Level: High
          Tech Level: 6 (Circa 1950)            Star port: Frontier
      

Geography:
    Port Adrian is the world's capital and is located at the south end of the 
Straits of Rickett, an 800km gap between the south coast of Seabridge Peninsula
and North Bannon Continent. (30 deg above equator, temperate year round)
Seabridge Peninsula is 5000km from north to south. The other major continent
is named Bannon and is 16,000 km from pole to pole.  

History
	Before the Rebellion, Herring was owned by Cirrino Stronglia.  He
ran a back to nature, survivalist training center.  For employees, he
hired members of his family, figuring that he could trust them, and that
they would more loyal than strangers.  About fifty family members came to 
help. They started bringing in small groups of off worlders to train in 
survival skills, including small arms training, wilderness survival, hunting,
and fishing. The family didn't have enough resources or manpower to be self
sufficient, almost all raw materials were shipped in from off world.  They were
able to grow a fair amount of food in a large garden, but still shipped in
some foodstuffs. 
	During the Rebellion, the family saw an upswing in business, but 
towards the onset of the Hard Times, business began to dry up. The family
began to worry about their survival, and to supplement their income, they
allowed several starmerc groups to base themselves on the planet.  The 
starmercs started constructing a small primitive landing field for their 
ships. This still serves as the planet's only starport. It is at the
southern end of the Port Adrian helioport.  It During the last stages of
Hard Times, refugees started to land on the planet, at first it was a 
trickle, when Virus struck it became a flood, as over three quarters of a 
million people landed on the planet. The Stronglia family at first resisted 
letting the refugees land on the planet, but many were coming in ships that 
were failing and had no where else to go.  Unscrupulous merchants would land 
in the far reaches of the planet, and disgorge their hordes.  Others would 
promise only to refuel, but then release hundreds if not thousands of 
refugees.  
	The family debated on what to do, some members suggested hiring the 
starmercs to wipe out refugees or shoot down any incoming ships, but
calmer minds prevailed.  The family decided to hire the starmercs as a
security force, and to settle the refugees across the planet. This would
allow them to start to grow their own food, and lessen their impact on
any one area.  They also hired a company from Keipes to manage the refugees.
The company was payed off with the starport concession and short term 
mineral rights on the system's far planets. These showed some promise of 
being profitable for the production of radioactives.  The company was given 
wide latitude and told to do whatever it took to save as many of the 
refugees as possible.  The most immediate problem was that there was no 
food for the thousands of refugees.  In the first year, over 400,000 of them
starved to death.  In the second year, another two hundred thousand starved.
In the the third year, enough farmland was under use that the surviving
population of 150,000 was able to survive.
	Virus missed the planet on its first sweep through the sector, but 
several months later, a Vampire fleet jumped into the system. The
starmercs tried to fight them off, but were defeated.  After the Vampires 
had infected the surviving starmerc ships, they ignored the planet and 
jumped out of the system.  
	In 1140, pretty much everyone had finally conceded that the rest of the
universe was either dead or so badly destroyed that they weren't coming	back
to Herring any time soon.  The Stronglia family decided to create a formal
government, and to turn the surviving starmercs into a permanent army.
The family drew up a constitution and presented it to the refugees.  The
refugees were able to comment on the document, but only a few minor wordings
were changed. 
	The constitution set up the present system of government. It also set up
a legal system.  Accused citizens do not have many civil rights; they have no
right to consul, no right against self incrimination, no right to bond, and
are considered guilty until proven innocent.  The accused are often 
physically interrogated.  The rules of evidence are also rather lax. Trials 
are held before a panel of three judges, who question the prosecutor and any
witnesses that the defense or prosecution may have brought forth.  The 
guilty are sentenced to long prison sentences, where they are forced to do 
manual labor.  The death penalty is almost never applied, which is unusual 
for a world with such a high law level. It is only applied to the most 
heinous murders. This legal system doesn't apply to members of the Stronglia
family.  They can only be charged with capital crimes, and a panel of family
members judges the cases.  The death penalty is never applied to a Stronglia.
	The bureaus and the Stronglias set up 13 different communities. From
ten to twenty thousand people live in each community.  Originally each
community tended to be made up of people from one planet, but in the seventy
years there has been some mixing.  The towns are connected by a small two
lane highway.  Each town has unlimited use of the surrounding 2500 square
kilometers.  If they want to make use of any land beyond this, they must
petition the Stronglia family.  The towns do trade among themselves, each 
town has an agricultural specialty.  Sendegon makes excellent dewmelon wine.
While Leftbridge makes sugar and candy from the sap of the carbi vine. Port
Adrian catches dozens of different varieties of seafood. The towns have a 
center which is composed of the original buildings, that were built to house
the refugees.  These were hastily constructed and are falling apart.  The 
Bureaus are starting a new program tearing these down and turning the land
into public parks.  Most residents live in small single family houses. Each
house has a small yard.  There is a sense of community and most residents
know most of their neighbors personally.

Stronglia Family
    There are currently some 250 members of the Stronglia family, they all
use the family name as their surname.  Members of the family are usually
addressed with the honorific Kel for male members of the family or Kela
for female members. Most of the family lives on the family estates several
hundred kilometers north of Port Adrian.  The family estates are very
modest, they centered around the 80 year old main house.  This house was
built by Cirrino Stronglia, and has been in use since then.  The Stronglias
make a living by running a trading corporation which trades between the
different cities.  It is the largest such company, the Stronglias make a
point of not using their power to help the company. It really doesn't need
the help, it was the first trading company established and has built up 
an insurmountable lead on the competition.  The Stronglias also receive
a small amount of money from the thirteen communities, as a rent for
being allowed to live on the planet.  This tax amounts to about 2% of the
gross domestic product. 
    The Stronglia family is run by a council of all members of the family
over 60 years old.  The younger Stronglias have always complained about this,
feeling that they were shut out.  To help alleviate these feelings, in 
1197, the family allowed the younger members to appoint one of their own
to join the council.  They choose Kela Doreen Stronglia, a 31 year old 
who was filled with visions of the changes he could make, once getting in
a position of power.  So far he has been extremly bored with the council, 
because they really don't do all that much.  It is only in a time of crisis
that they are called on to act, otherwise the members tell dirty jokes,
play canasta and finish off the meeting with a good meal.  The council
meets about once a month. 
     The family has access to a fair bit of relic technology.  They have
several hundred small arms, mostly Imperial gauss weaponry. Two grav 
speeders have been kept operational, are are used in emergencies.  They
also have many miscellaneous consumer items, such as sonic massagers,
holovid games, microwave ovens, gravometric exercise equipment, and
an automed. 

Government
	Each of the thirteen communities sends representatives to the Planetary
Assembly.  An assemblyman is awarded for each 2100 residents.  This number
fluctuates, so that at anyone time, there are only 200 assemblymen.  The
assemblymen are popularly elected by the towns.  Assemblymen serve a three
year term, and can serve an unlimited number of terms. The assemblymen 
select one of their number to be the world's representative to the 
Reformation Coalition's Assembly of World.  The Stronglia Family selects
one of the Assemblymen to be Planetary Governor.  The current governor is
Manjit Bryce, who has served four consecutive terms as governor. The 
Planetary Assembly can vote to remove the governor from office with a 90% 
majority of the Assembly.  The Stronglias must then select a new governor.  
So far, this has never happened.  
	The Stronglia family also selects one of their own members to be the 
Chairman of the Assembly.  The Chairman has a veto over all declarations
that the Assembly makes.  No means are provided to override this veto.
The Chairman also has the ability to dissolve the Assembly and call for new
elections.  So far this has only happened once, when 37 of the assembly-
members were arrested on corruption charges. 
	The Assembly does not have a great deal of power.  It is able to pass
non-binding resolutions on any topic. It also has the ability to pass 
suggestions to the bureaucracy and the military.  All resolutions must be 
passed by a 75% majority.  In general the Assembly is a place for the 
people's representatives to talk about problems and discuss possible solutions.
These solutions are sometimes listened to, but often ignored.
	The real power in the government is the bureaucracy.  The Bureaus as
as they are called, were set up during the Hard Times that followed the 
Rebellion. The Bureaus are concerned with the welfare and well being of 
populace, but they assume that they know what is best for the populace. 
With dozens of different cultures being represented on the planet, someone
is always grousing and complaining.  The Bureaus are in charge of pretty
much everything except for religion.  The Bureaus run the schools, but tend
to stay away from the teaching of moral values, and the like, leaving that
to the parents and religious figures.  
    To many outsiders Ra seems a repressive planet, with a government that
ignores the will of the people.  Several groups from other planets in the
Coalition have tried to launch a democracy movement. The most visable of
these has been the efforts by the Blue & White party from Aurora.
So far these efforts have not borne fruit. One reason is that the 
government does not appreciate outsiders involving themselves with 
internal politics, the other is that the residents do not see democracy
as the ideal model of government.  They realize that Ra is not perfect, 
but it is better than what mob rule would turn it into.  Ra is firmly 
a member of the Federalist bloc, believing that each world is an isolated 
case, shaped by circumstances unique to the planet. Each world should be
allowed to determine the form of government and social structure that 
suits it best.  Kel Lucas Stronglia, the Assemblyman from Ra often 
critises other more interventionist Federalists, who want to interfere
in the internal affairs of other planets.

Seabridge Nest
	A nest of 500 hivers has settled on Ra.  They settled on Seabridge 
Peninsula, and have taken this as the name of their nest.  The nest is 
primarily interested in sharing agricultural expertise with the Coalition.
They have stated genetically engineering plant species for some of the
harsher planets in the RC, such as Phoebus.  The government of Ra, has
established a reserve around the nest to protect the Hiver larvae from 
human interference.  Penalties for broaching the enclave are fairly severe.
The nest is protected by the Company A of the 515th Ra Military Police.
The hivers have seeded the area with predators from the hiver homeworld
in order to keep the larvae population in check.  M. Dina is the head of
the project. 
	The nest was founded in VIII/1200. In exchange for the use of the land,
the hivers have given the Stronglia family a sizable cargo of high tech 
industrial goods. The Stronglia family sold these, to purchase two TL-12
System Defense Boats from Aubaine. These have subsequently been named Asp
One and Asp Two.  They also purchased a pair of weather satellites to provide
weather forecasts.  The hivers also supply a handful of technical advisors
to assist in helping the residents of Ra increase their tech level. In early
1202 the nest was attacked with a biological weapon of Solomani origin.  The 
renegade Dawn League scout, Vega Norn is suspected in the attack. She is 
also suspected in the firing of a nuclear warhead at the surface.  The 
target was an uninhabited island in the north. No casualties were reported, 
but a RCES crew was in the area. Several hundred of the hivers died from the
biological weapon which is believed to be Folgorex II.  This has severely 
handicapped their work, and it is unknown when and if they will be able to 
resume their work.
	The nest is supplied with state of the art hiver technology.  This includes
many expert system robots.  Thus ironically, a low tech world like Ra, is 
one of the few places in the RC where you can find large numbers of high 
tech robots.   The nest also has a state of the art passive electromagnetic
sensor array in orbit.

Society
     Since the refugees were from so many different worlds, they brought
different customs, religions and tastes to their adopted world.  This
heritage is still present on Ra.  Ra has dozens of different holidays, festivals
and other ceremonies, that a fraction of the population follows.  The blending
of culture has given Ra a very exotic air, as dozens of cultures merge into
something unique.
      The L'Steich refugees still celebrate the Feast of St Vladimir, a four
day festival celebrating the salvation of the early colony on L'Steich. The 
colony experienced a horrible first growing season, and mass starvation was 
imminent, when Vladimir Lukin arrived in system. His free trader had
malfunctioned and he needed some spare parts to fix his jump drive.
Luckily he was shipping luxury food items to Terra. He saw the 
desperate straits the colonists were in, and donated his entire cargo 
to the colony.  The Colonists celebrated with a great feast.  From then
on their fortunes looked much brighter.  To this day, the feast is
held on the 10th through the 14th of the ninth month of the year. It is 
celebrated with parades and feasts where the whole neighborhood joins in.
Of course historical events don't resemble the myth of St Vladimir,
but when did that stop a good holiday.
      The residents of Blackstone celebrate the Night of a Thousand Faces,
where the entire community dresses up in fanciful costumes and engage in
a wild party.  During this night, almost all social restrictions are relaxed
 and the people let themselves go wild.  Different groups in the city put
on block parties, and residents go from party to party, partaking of alcohol,
narcotics, hallucigens and other drugs.  Many people engage in sexual 
behavior that they normally wouldn't dare do.  In the last few years, the
festival has attracted alot of attention from the other communities on the
planet. Many residents of other cities have started to come to partaking in
the festivities. While other more conservative residents, particularly the 
community of Greenwillow have condemn the festival as a hedonistic ritual
that should be eliminated before it contaminates further generations.
     While Port Adrian is the capital of the planet, it is primarily
populated with refugees from the asteroid world of Kruyter. One of their
holidays is Equality Day. Mona Biel was a vocal supporter of minority and
women's rights.  In 432 the corporate dictatorship which ruled Kruyter at
that time executed her for her anti-government rhetoric.  The populace was
outraged and rose up and overthrew the government.  Ever since the date of
her death has been a national holiday.  Most people celebrate the holiday
by taking the day off, and spending time with their family.  There are also
lectures by prominent thinkers of the day. They give speeches on the status
of  to equality in the world today.
     The Corrigian residents of Sendegon and Le'Fleiago celebrate the 
end of a deadly plague on the Festival of the Blessed Lady.  In -1500
a plague was ravaging the city of Belcoh. A mysterious woman appeared
and went through the populace healing the sick and raising the dead.
By dawn she had vanished, never to be heard of again.  A religion sprang
up around her.  On the day of the festival, the believers go to church
and pray.  On the day of the festival, the believers light their homes with 
white candles.  On Corrig there was a large shrine dedicated to the Lady.
It purports to have holy relics that were actually touched by the Lady 
herself.  Many in the community want to bring the shrine to Ra. They are
trying to organize a mission to do so.  They  have gotten permission from
the Stronglias and the Assembly of Worlds. They are currently trying to
raise funds.
      The residents of Kelogogianolk celebrate Holy Rites every 15 standard
months.  The Rites is a week of parties and wild abandon, followed by 
three days of contrition. This contrition usually involves fasting,
praying and physical castigation.  The Rites are supposed to balance the
soul, by purging the soul of urges that people are filled with.  Most other
residents of Ra, think the holiday is rather bizarre.
     The cities of Greenwillow and Hazardville celebrate one of the more
fun holidays, Minlidno Day.  Minlidno was the planetary symbol of Bestor.
She was a Keltara.  Keltara are a species of large arboreal animal native
to Bestor.  They are very gentle animals, eating fruits and leaves.  
Almost all humans find them extremly cute and adorable. They are covered 
with a beautiful golden fur, with large brown spots.  Keltara live for
several hundred years.  Minlidno was a orphaned as a cub, when a forest
fire killed her mother and father, and destroyed her habitat.  She was
found by a firefighter and brought to the local zoo.  Keltara hardly ever
survive in captivity, but Minlidno not only survived, but thrived.  She
was extremly friendly towards humans. Soon the entire planet had fallen
in love with her.  Minlidno died of old age, the year before the Collapse.
On the date of her death, people dress up and celebrate her life. They
either dress up in full Keltara costumes, or just wear something with
a Keltara fur pattern on it.  There is also a giant parade down the main
street in each of the cities.  There are floats, giant inflated balloons,
holographic displays, clowns and marching bands.  It is a very fun holiday.
     The Red Tide Fete celebrates the start of the fishing season on Welch.
It is celebrated every 7 standard months. (A year on Welch.)  Originally
it was celebrated with a large feast and story telling by the elders of the
community. The holiday is slowly dying, the current generations have not
ever seen Welch, and don't understand the significance of the holiday. They
are treating it as an excuse to take the day off.  
     Bolo Ball is the obsession of anyone descended from refugees from 
L'Steich. On Ra, the game is purely amateur, on Balder the game has professional
teams. Fans on Ra, feel that Baldur has corrupted the purity of the game.
Fans on Baldur don't really care what the fans on Ra feel, they just want
to watch a good game.  On Ra, almost a third of the L'Steich population plays
in a league. On opening day, the teams parade around town, boasting of what
they will do in the upcoming season.  They also talk to the fans, teach a 
few tricks to the youngsters.  Most people have a picnic dinner.  The night
ends with a fireworks display.
     The one holiday that is celebrated world wide is Remembrance Day.  This
day is dedicated to remembering those who died in the Collapse.  It is a
very solemn holiday.  Everyone has the day off, except for emergency 
personal.  Many churches hold special services to pray for the dead.  
The Governor gives a speech, and lays a wreath at the Remembrance Obilisk,
located in Port Adrian. The Obilisk is a obelisk of black obsidian sited
on a disk of white marble.  The obelisk is 200 meters tall, and the disk
is 500 meters in radius.  Many people lay flowers at the base of the 
Obilisk.  Remembrance Day is celebrated on the last day of the sixth
month of the standard calendar.  
	 The Sandpeople of Bolton tell stories of the immense wealth that their
ancestors left behind on the homeworld.  A group of them has tried to get 
the Assembly of Worlds to grant them a deed to the planet, so as to prevent 
anyone else from recovering the treasures.  They are also trying to raise 
capital to finance a recovery mission.  They are a rather poor community 
and have so far been unable to launch a mission. 
     The cuisine of Ra, is also quite varied.  Food in the communities 
with refugees from L'Steich, tends to be most vegetarian. There was very
little room on L'Steich for raising animals, so the people mostly ate
vegetables.  They came up with hundreds of ways to serve vegetables, and to
make them succulent and savory.  Now that they have access to more meat, 
the chefs still make vegetables their specialty, using meat as an accent.
     Kelogogianolk food is extremly hot and spicy. They brought several 
spice plants from Reagan, and they have found a few more on Ra.  Most 
other Ra residents won't even touch the stuff, except for a few hardy
souls with cast iron stomachs. 
      
Communities                           Original Planet(s) 
Greenwillow                            Bestor
Le'Fleiago                             Corrig/L'Steich
Harrington                             Dono (Enkidu)
Karachiko                              L'Steich
La Sienda                              L'Steich
Kelogogianolk                          Reagan
Blackstone                             Welch
Hazardville	                       Bestor
Bolton                                 Sand/L'Steich
Crackton                               Dono (Enkidu)
Sendegon                               Corrig/Junak
Leftbridge                             Dono/Heppling (Enkidu/Baldur)
Port Adrian                            Kruyter

References: Death of Wisdom
            Path of Tears
            
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1020
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 4 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1021



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)
Re: In-system campaign: economics?
Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)
Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Star Wars (Garry's response to Loren)
M0: Missing Pieces
re: stars in FS (long)
Star Wars II
Re: ID4 and Americans
Snub Pistols, Battle Dress and Sand Casters
Re: even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)
Re: even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Latest IG Update: lingering Q 
Alien Supplements
Re: Blunt Trauma
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Task System

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 10:35:15 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)
> 
> >> Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->
> >>
> >> Welcome to the outer darkness.
> >>
> >> Eris
> 
> Count me among the Heretics then...Designers should be able to use whatever
> dice they see fit, within reason. (Besides, I thought the TML creed was
> "Background Uber Alles, mechanics be d*mned).
> 
> Loren Wiseman
>     GDW Emeritus

	Hey, are any of the Horseman slots still available? Loren certainly
deserves to be a major heretic! I think I've been named Famine, and
wasn't Harold Death? or War? I dunno...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:33:39 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

Zhodani agents report that GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

- -> Re: A dice by any other name (was: I don't get it)
- -> 
- -> >> Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->
- -> >> 
- -> >> Welcome to the outer darkness.
- -> >> 
- -> >> Eris
- -> 
- -> Count me among the Heretics then...Designers should be able to use whatever
- -> dice they see fit, within reason. (Besides, I thought the TML creed was
- -> "Background Uber Alles, mechanics be d*mned).
It once was! :-(
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:47:00 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)

On  3 Mar 97 at 16:12, Douglas E. Berry spewed:

> I'm curious as to how many of you have female players/GMs in your
> group. I've always gamed with women, and have found them to be great
> role-players. Traveller does seem to be lacking a strong female
> presence, but makes up for it by not suffering from the chainmail
> bikini syndrome. 

Hmm.  Well, obviously there's a female in my RPG group now.  <G>  
OTOH, come to think of it, there was semi-regularly before I met Suzette.  
As a matter of fact, way back in the old days, when 
RPG's were printed on Stone Tablets, and I actually used to play 
in (and more infrequently run) AD&D, before I gave it up for the one 
true faith, it seems like the groups generally had at least one (or 
more) women involved.

Overall, I think Traveller has a decent record about this.  Yes, 
there was a strong military bent about certain aspects of Traveller 
(and it got a little more so as time went on).  Nonetheless the lack of strong 
sexual flavor, and the absurd "chainmail bikini" syndrome present in 
many RPG's, made it a natural, IMO, for a mixed gaming group.  BTW, I 
can recall several DGP adventures that featured female characters and NPC's.  
GDW's Knightfall, for one, featured 2 Vilani females, and a female Vargr.  OTOH, 
the core of science fiction and RPG's fan base are both predominantly male, 
which would explain the predominance in Traveller, I suppose.  

Come to think of it, in all the years that I've visited FLGS's, I think 
I've seen about 3 women:  my wife, the wife of the owner of one of the 
shops I frequent, and Liz Danforth, who used to hang out at Flying Buffalo 
all the time when they used to actually run a game store here in 
Scottsdale, AZ.

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Official USENet Product Infoperson  Imperium Games
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 11:06:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: In-system campaign: economics?

   Hi.

> From: cwebb@mail.ctainforms.com (Christopher E. Webb)

> What would freight and passenger charges be for in-system transportation?  It
> seems a little steep to charge KCr10, for example, for a flight from a world
> to one of its satellites.  Has anyone worked on prices for in-system transport?

   I always used the charter rules given in Book 2 (I assume they are in
   T4 also) for nonstarships. The customer then pays the charter cost by
   the day for the fraction of the cargo space he needs.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 11:40:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)

   Hi.

> From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@pop.goodnet.com>

   > OTOH,  the core of science fiction and RPG's fan base are both
   > predominantly male,  which would explain the predominance in
   > Traveller, I suppose.  

   I think the science fiction connection is a strong one here. In the
   fantasy RPG's I've played in, there have always been women players. I
   think this is because many women like Tolkien and other fantasy
   writers, so they are attracted to Fantasy RPG's despite the chainmail
   bikinis. Very few women read science fiction, however, (with the
   possible exception of Michael Chrichton), and in the 18+ years I
   have been playing Trav, I have only seen three women play.

   Not that that bothers me very much. I kinda enjoy the clubhouse feel
   most Traveller games have, and the complete absence of sexual
   jockeying that enevitably goes on in mixed groups. And despite some
   assertions to the contrary on this list, I have never noticed that a
   perference for role-playing (as opposed to combat) broke down along
   sexual lines in either my D&D games or in my (limited,
   female-wise) Traveller games. Insofar as there is a breakdown,
   it follows lines of experience with RPG's, which women often lack.
   I've noticed that newbie women in RPG's often model their characters
   after comic-book superheroines, while newbie men seem to prefer a
   Harrison-Ford-style action hero/rogue.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 09:01:58 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)

At 08:47 AM 3/4/97 -0800, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>Overall, I think Traveller has a decent record about this.  Yes, 
>there was a strong military bent about certain aspects of Traveller 
>(and it got a little more so as time went on).  Nonetheless the lack of
strong 
>sexual flavor, and the absurd "chainmail bikini" syndrome present in 
>many RPG's, made it a natural, IMO, for a mixed gaming group.  

Well yeah, but I think you may be minimizing the military nature of CT at
least.  My wife, an avid RPGer (though no chainmail bikinis :) ) was
somewhat turned off by the "boys" nature of having to know what ACR,
claymore mine, FGMP-15, battledress, etc., meant.  Boarding actions she was
into. :)  Still, I think with the almost military-only character generation
and adventure generation, it's all too easy to have Traveller campaigns
resemble "The Guns of Navarone."  We may not need to have them become
"Sleepless in Seattle," but something in the middle (Aliens? B5?) is in
order.  

This is one reason I made the "scientist" chargen tables (which, yes, I'm
still looking for.  I'm down to the boxes we haven't unpacked in several
moves...).


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:24:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

I applaud the creative imaginations which have come up w an explanation as to
how an Agricultural planet could exist around an M9 star. These sorts of
explanations work great for exceptions but it definitely should not be a
common occurrence. I prefer to change the star (I'm a heretic. I can do these
things), unless I've got something handy to explain it.

I've interpreted the trade classification of Agricultural to mean a planet
capable of exporting large amounts of food (Agricultural products accepted).
Maybe the occasional subterranean oasis does warrant such as a
classification. I would think that the economics of the enterprise make it
impractical and only performed only for exceptional circumstances (create
your own).  I do accept that it's possible (see January issue of Discover:
"Cave-Dwellers in Romania"), but very rare at best.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 09:34:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Star Wars (Garry's response to Loren)

Garry Ward wrote:

>Which implies that Cleon is ....
>
>Is the Third Imperium what happens when Luke & Han fail to destroy the Death
>Star?
>
>Much of the discussions I have read lately imply that most players are in
>favor of the Imperium and Cleon.  Should we look for or develop some
>materials on those groups who would prefer the Sylean Federation remain a
>federation instead of merrily assuming you can inherit the right to rule?
>
>Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy?

He should be neither.

One of the great historical things about Traveller is that there never were
clear heroes and villains. Just ambiguities.

Remember how the Zhodani were thought to be this insidious evil? And then
once you got to know them, they weren't that bad. They just did
things,...differently.

The Imperium/Sylean conflict should be no different. Let the players
choose. Ref's shouldn't choose for them!

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:48:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: M0: Missing Pieces

Hi folks,

Here's something that was cut from Milieu 0, but which we had in the 
original manuscript (i.e., someone down the line cut it).  David Burden 
prepared these maps of the Imperium as it expands.  Hope it proves helpful.

Here they are in all their ASCII glory!



Sylean Federation -30
- ----+----+----+----+----
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
- ----+----+----+----+----   V-Vland
....|....|.SSS|SSSS|S...   D-Deneb
....|....|.SVT|T...|.S..   A - Antares
.D..|....|S.T.|.T..|..A.   C - Capital
....|....|S..T|..TT|..S.   L - Libert
- ----+----+----+----+----   
....|....|S..T|..F.|T.S.
....|....|S..T|.FCF|T.S.   F - Federation/Imperium Border
....|....|.S.T|....|T.S.   T - Trading extent
....|....|..S.|TTTT|T.S.   S - Scouting extent     
- ----+----+----+----+----
....|....|...S|....|..S.
....|....|....|SSSS|SS..
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
- ----+----+----+----+----
....|....|....|L...|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
- ----+----+----+----+----


Imperium - Year 0
- ----+----+----+----+----
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
- ----+----+----+----+----   V-Vland
....|...S|SSTS|SSSS|SS..   D-Deneb
....|..S.|.TVT|....|..S.   A - Antares
.D..|.S..|T..F|TTTT|..A.   C - Capital
....|.SSS|T..F|F...|T..S   L - Libert
- ----+----+----+----+----   
....|...S|.T..|FFFF|.T.S
....|..S.|.T..|FFCF|.T.S   F - Federation/Imperium Border
....|.S..|.T..|FFFF|.T.S   T - Trading extent
....|S...|.T..|FFFF|.T.S   S - Scouting extent     
- ----+----+----+----+----
....|S...|..T.|....|T..S
....|S...|...T|TTTT|..S.
....|.S..|....|....|.S..
....|..SS|SSSS|SSSS|S...
- ----+----+----+----+----
....|....|....|L...|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
- ----+----+----+----+----

Imperium - Year 20
- ----+----+----+----+----
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|..SS|SSSS|SSSS|....
....|.S..|....|....|SSS.
- ----+----+----+----+----   V-Vland
....|SS.T|TTFT|TTTT|TTTS   D-Deneb
...S|...T|TFVF|FFFF|FFTS   A - Antares
.D.S|SSSS|TF..|....|..AS   C - Capital
....|...S|TF..|....|..FS   L - Libert
- ----+----+----+----+----   
....|...S|T.F.|FFFF|.FTS
....|..S.|T.F.|FFCF|.FTS   F - Federation/Imperium Border
....|.S.T|..F.|FFFF|.FTS   T - Trading extent
....|S..T|..F.|FFFF|.FTS   S - Scouting extent     
- ----+----+----+----+----
....|S..T|..F.|....|F.TS
....|S...|T..F|FFFF|.TS.
....|.S..|.TTT|.TTT|TS..
....|..SS|SSS.|T..S|S...
- ----+----+----+----+----
....|....|...S|LSS.|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
....|....|....|....|....
- ----+----+----+----+----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 09:43:36 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: stars in FS (long)

"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net> writes
>>Does "M9d" really indicate a M9 "white" dwarf? There's no such animal;
>>the universe isn't old enough for white dwarfs to have cooled down to M9
>>temperatures. (The coolest white dwarf I personally know of is 5000 K or so,
>>though I'm not a white dwarf specialist.)

>   My understanding is that there is one known M type white dwarf, and
>that one is a borderline K.  Actually, I believe many professional
>astronomers now use a different classification scheme than the old
>"OBAFGKM" scale (one based on the composition of the white dwarf),
>though the old scale is still popular with amateur astronomers.  But you
>are correct, the age of the Universe tends to disallow such dim white
>dwarfs, particularly in our part of the galaxy.

Correct, white dwarfs are usually classified with something other than
OBAFGKM - mostly classified instead based on temperature and composition.
Still, it's a convienient shorthand - I don't object to Traveller's use
of it. Nor even to there being an M white dwarf...but an M*9* is really red - 
there's only a handful of M9 stars known at all. Much cooler than an M0, 
far too cool to be a white dwarf.

>>On the other hand, a brown dwarf could happily survive inside the envelope of
>>a red giant.

>   How?  You would expect that as the main sequence star gradually
>expanded outward into the red giant phase, putting the brown dwarf ever
>closer to the surface of the star, that the temperatures would rise to
>the point that the brown dwarf would gradually dissolve.  Also, once the
>star and the brown dwarf make contact, any remaining mass left over from
>the brown dwarf should be absorbed by the star, perhaps even very
>briefly extending the star's period on the main sequence (think of it as
>the ultimate vampire movie--the star draws hydrogen from the "victim"
>until its life force is extinguished).  At any rate, let's assume that
>the brown dwarf survives all that somehow.  How does it survive the
>transition from red giant to white dwarf?  Red giants never die
>peacefully.  There's shelling of outer layers, and all sorts of other
>violence occurring that should chew that brown dwarf into pieces in
>short order.

Let me put it this way: the second-best brown dwarf candidate currently
known, GD165B, is a companion (at about 50 AU) to a white dwarf.
There's no particular reason why the brown dwarf would dissolve. The outer
layers of the red giant's atmosphere are only a few thousand kelvin. 
The outer atmosphere of the brown dwarf would heat up to the same
temperature - which is far short of what would be needed for the brown
dwarf atmosphere to start sublimating off. Brown dwarfs are small, and
dense, with very high surface gravity; there's no reason why they can't hold
onto their atmosphere in multi-thousand-kelvin conditions (and, in fact, very
young brown dwarfs may well naturally have surface temperatures of 3000K or
more.) 

How expect the star to suck mass off the brown dwarf? Again, because the
brown dwarf is massive, its surface gravity is very high. Because the 
red giant is thin and wispy, its surface gravity is very low, even though
its total mass is higher. Mass transfer will actually go the other way - the
brown dwarf will accrete mass from the red giant (classic common-envelope 
binary), possibly (though not necessarily) enough to push it over the line
into starhood. It will also spiral inward (it's gaining mass but not 
angular momentum so its orbit has to contract.) If it started out too
close, it will hit the core of the red giant, which admittedly would
be catastrophic. But if it started out just right, by the time the red giant
phase is over it could stop just short of the white dwarf (or moderately-
far-away...) (Brown dwarfs outside the red giant envelope spiral outward,
since they don't gain mass and the red giant has lost it; the net effect
is that there's a gap in allowed orbits around the white dwarf, from
about 3 AU to about 10 AU.) 0-3AU and 10-infinity are allowed. 

Finally, the transition from red giant to white dwarf isn't violent in
any sort of way that would chew the brown dwarf into pieces. (What do
you think it's doing - flinging huge chunks of star off into space like
a Star Trek special effect?) The gas comes off relatively quickly by
astronomer standards, but slowly by human standards, and will just pass
the brown dwarf harmlessly by. Binary stars survive their more-massive
partners supernovae, after all...

>>A brown dwarf in the innermost orbit of a white dwarf is perfectly
>>plausible - my PhD thesis advisor spent several years looking for them.

>   One possibility I'll have to give you, courtesy of the latest in
>astronomical theory (which means its far from proven): a brown dwarf
>that started out in a farther orbit, survived all the violence, but is
>now gradually spiraling in toward the white dwarf (this would also
>explain the prescence of the moon "Shorts").  "Shorts" is not going to
>be a pleasent place to live a few million years from now (give or take a
>few million years) as the brown dwarf finally finishes it death dance
>and goes up in a big ***bang*** when it finally makes contact with the
>white dwarf.

I have no idea why you think the brown dwarf will keep spiralling in once
the red giant phase is over. Whatever orbit it ends up in (probably a very
circular one, but that's irrelevant) will be stable. Neither object is 
losing mass. Orbits are, in the absence of external perturbations, stable
forever.

Listen - I have a PhD in astronomy, my thesis was a brown dwarf search,
I've looked for white/dwarf brown dwarf binaries using the largest
telescope in the world - I know what I'm talking about.

Bruce
(irritable - it's been a long week.) 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:00:27 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Star Wars II

>From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Star Wars
>
>At 07:57 PM 3/3/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> <snip>
>>As we were driving home, Marc and I talked. I forget what I said, and I
>>forget everything he said except one thing: "Loren, Traveller _IS_ Star
>>Wars." And he was right.
>>
>>Nostalgia mode off.
>>
>> Haec Olim Meminisse Juvabit
>>
>>Loren Wiseman
>>    GDW Emeritus

>Which implies that Cleon is ....

At the time of Marc;s statement, Cleon, Strephon (indeed, the whole
background we all know and love) had not yet been thought of.

>Is the Third Imperium what happens when Luke & Han fail to destroy the Death
>Star?

In a word, no. Marc was referring to the general ambience of movie and game.
He did not mean that Emperor Green-face and Cleon Z. were one and the same.
If you need to use "Good-Guy/Bad-Guy" labels, Cleon is a Good-Guy.

Loren Wiseman
    GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 97 18:10 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

In-Reply-To: <A3CB8F62FB9@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>

<< Why, we Germans are only out for Unity, Right and Freedom and that 
these are the goals we should all strive for for the better of our 
land... I can see nothing bloodthirsty in that...! >>

"Don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with 
it..."

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 10:13:37 -0800
From: Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>
Subject: Snub Pistols, Battle Dress and Sand Casters

Our group is transitioning from CT to T4, and the snub pistol used to be
the best shipboard weapon, and a great close range weapon with the
option of HE, HEAP, and Tranq. rounds.  I cannot find anything equivalent
in the T4 system.  Why was such a flexible weapon dropped? Any
suggested replacements?

The conversion of Battle Dress (the powered version) from CT to
T4 has resulted in a huge upgrade of the armor, from "to hit" minuses to
virtual immunity to most small arms.  Any suggestions that might be more
palitable to our referee?

Also, the ship combat system has changed substantially.  We're
confused with the sandcasters.  The T4 rules seem to imply that you are
able to detect the number os lasers trained on your ship, and fire the
sand casters accordingly.  How do you know how many lasers the
enemy will fire?  Also, do you have to manuver around your own
sandcasters to fire your lasers?  I assume so.  Must the sandcasters be
controlled like missles after they're fired?  And finally, I assume that
launched sand casters will not remain with the ship if it accellerates.  Is
this true?

By the way, does anyone know what happened to Dave Golden's web
site?  I havn't been able to access it lately.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 97 18:11 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970301103350.006e0834@pop.ricochet.net>

<< Okay, there's gotta be a Traveller tie-in here someplace.  Maybe a fiercely
independent world made up of the descendants of those who settled it while
fleeing from "civilization" and an earlier war (like Oregon)?  Hmmm.  Could
add some depth to a campaign. >>

How about all the people who didn't agree with nasty old Cleon turning their 
nice little Federation into an evil Empire?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 97 18:11 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: even further afield... (was Re: ID4 and Americans)

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970301103350.006e0834@pop.ricochet.net>

<< Okay, there's gotta be a Traveller tie-in here someplace.  Maybe a fiercely
independent world made up of the descendants of those who settled it while
fleeing from "civilization" and an earlier war (like Oregon)?  Hmmm.  Could
add some depth to a campaign. >>

How about all the people who didn't agree with nasty old Cleon turning their 
nice little Federation into an evil Empire?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 97 18:10 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

In-Reply-To: <A6E2C9134CF@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>

<< -> work of Satan. And you know what happens to those who traffic with 
the devil
- -> -- they get burned at the stake. :o
Well, we're lucky in that respect: I just saw a documentary on 
rock-music in Egypt, how it's seen as devils worship and how those 
who go to those dicos or parties are treated by the government! Sad, 
sad story! >>

It's worse than that: the police are raiding houses and carting 
teenagers off to prison, just for listening to rock music.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:38:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Latest IG Update: lingering Q 

It appears there was a miscommunication yesterday.  Here's a correction 
on the $10 discount issue, straight from Lauren:

> The customers should not be subtracting themselves for the deluxe.
> Ask them to read the website where we we have everyone on file
> if they ordered over the internet and we will give them a discount
> automatically and anyone who ordered in a store can e-mail me.  Thanks. 

Sorry for any confusion.

- -Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:52:43 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Alien Supplements

Someone said:

>- -> It won't be a repeat performance for everyone though - IG has this crazy 
>- -> idea that they're reaching out to NEW customers with T4!  =)  As for why 

Then Someone Else Said:

>Still, the information is already out there! If you look, you can 
>find it. Over here, many stores still stock the MT Alien supplements 
>(sadly, this can't be said about The Flaming Eye by DGP- i should 
>have bought it when i saw it-doh!)

Why the heck haven't you replied to any of the requests I've seen on the TML?
I am looking for a copy of Solomani and Aslan, and I would even consider
paying the shipping from Germany if the price was right.

There may be many over there, but on this side of the Atlantic, I have had a
very VERY hard time finding any of the alien supplements for MT or CT!

Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:52:47 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma

I really haven't been keeping up with this, and I don't have time to get
involved, and if this has already been suggested, I apologize to the
originator, but...

What if every die of damage that is a six that is blocked by armor is
counted as blunt trauma damage of one point.

Then...

I hit with a 6D weapon and the armor is 3D, I roll 6 6 5 3 1 1 then there is
6 6 5 of Damage and no Blunt Trauma (above the penetration damage).  If I
roll 6 6 6 6 3 1 of damage, then there is 1 pt of blunt trauma (above the
penetration damage).

If I hit with a 3D weapon and the armor is 3D, I roll 6 3 2 then there is no
penetration damage and 1 pt of Blunt trauma (the 1 six).  If I roll 5 3 2,
then there is no damage at all.

For more deadly combat, lower the six to a five or four.

Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:44:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 08:15:04 -0500
> From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
> 
>    But even assuming that such a world exists, why go to all the
> trouble, when it is so much easier (and less expensive to harvest) to
> just throw some seeds into the soil on a more habitable world and wait
> for them to sprout?  Even the "alcohol plants" would be much easier to
> simply genetically engineer for warmer temps and take to another world
> to grow.

This is a can of worms it's best not to open.  One of my major problems
with the Traveller background is how truly low-tech underlying industries
like manufacturing and information processing are.  If we avoid sinking
into a downward social/ecological spiral in the near future, within a
century or two we should be quite capable of synthesizing any desire
material or product directly from raw feedstock of appropriate elemental
abundances.  You want an alcoholic raspberry?  Synthesize one.

There will no doubt continue to be luxury markets in organically grown or
"low-tech" manufactured goods, just as there are today; but the bulk of
material needs will be satisfied using synthesis, relying only on rocks,
seawater, and (perhaps) sunlight as raw materials.

In a society with this technology, large-scale shipping of goods between
star shystems makes no sense at all.  Why schlepp 10,000 tons of Fubar
Root across two parsecs, when you can synthesize the same amount at your
destination from a few carloads of wet gravel?

The Traveller background is basically (basically!) 20th-century society,
with our cultural and economic underpinnings, and star travel grafted on
top.  This is probably the only way it can work as a game; players need to
be able to mostly rely on their real-world knowledge to understand the
game world; otherwise, you'd need a year-long intro course just to know
what was up in the game world, what the assumptions are.  A real 57th
century human society would likely be as incomprehensible to us as
downtown LA would be to Gilgamesh.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:52:46 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Task System

Someone already mentioned this, and I'm thinking of playing around with it
for a bit to see how I like it, but I think it would fix many problems if
you doubled the skill numbers.

We all pretty much agree that a professional/expert is somewhere between a
T4 skill of -3 and -4.  Well, double the skill level and you get a skill of
- -7, the same average as the attribute(stat).

The difficulty rolls would then be paterned around the normal difficulty for
an average professional.  Part of the playing I want to do is see how viable
this is with the 1D/2D/3D/4D/5D/6D system.

I think this idea has merrit, and as someone posted, by choosing 2 skills
during char gen instead of doubling the number at the end, the character
could be better detailed.

Just a thought.

Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1021
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 4 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1022



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller on IRC
THUDDD Proclomation
Re: Blunt Trauma
Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)
Off-topic: Credit Cards
Re: Traveller on IRC
Re: Off-topic: credit cards over the Net
Honest Review of Milieu 0
Cleon a "good guy"?
Re: Task System
Re: Heretics and the Four Horsemen
THUDDD Future Rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:59:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller on IRC

> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:11:36 +0000
> From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
> 
> Ok, lets see if I can get everything right this time!

Not quite... :)

> Topic   Ecology 101
> Speaker:  Craig Berry
> Date:  Thursday, March 6, 1997
> Time:  7:00pm CST

Nope, 7:30pm CST (=5:30 PST, 8:30 EST)

I may be a few minutes late; if so, talk amongst yourselves. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:52:49 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: THUDDD Proclomation

This is an official THUDDD Proclomation

As such it will not be official until THUDDD becomes my animal which will be
April 1, 1997 (when the first competition will start).

Grapples and Docking Ring Issues:

Definitions:
  Docking ring:  A docking ring is an area within the hull that is nearly
the exact shape and size of the carried craft.  Grapples are installed as
part of this indentation to hold the craft in place.  The craft takes away
from the internal volume of the ship.  For an example, see the Disney movie,
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, the small rowboat used an example of a docking
ring.
    ____________
   /         ___|  ___
  |         |___  |___| 
   \____________|

  Grapples:  Grapples are simply latches and tethers that are used to hold a
carried craft to the parent ship and connect it to that parent (for fuel,
passenger and data transfer, etc).  Grapples do not necessarily hold a craft
within the existing hull area of a parent ship.  The carried craft does not
take away from the internal volume of the ship.  For an example, consider
the typical long boat carried on early wooden sailing vessels, they hang
next to the actual hull, but are not allocated a place within the ship.
    _____________
   /             |
   \_____________|
        c:::


  QSDS does not really allow for Docking Rings.  QSDS takes a prebuilt hull
and fits it with standard parts, and as such, there are no areas where the
indentation can be made for a docking ring.  For practical purposes,
however, assume that this can be done and that the docking ring area is
available (hollowed out) within the hull.  While in reality, the price
involved would not allow the discounted rate, for game purposes, don't worry
about this.

  The size of the hull and Jump/Maneuver Drive selection is an issue.  When
using a docking ring, the volume needed for a carried craft would need to be
allowed within the existing hull, and the selections for Jump and Maneuver
Drives (and anything else based on hull size) would reflect the hull size
chosen initially.  When using grapples, on the other hand, the volume for
the carried craft would be in addition to the existing hull.  The Jump and
Maneuver Drives (and anything else based on hull size) would reflect the
hull size initially chosen PLUS the size of the carried craft.

Examples:

  800 Dislacement Ton Merc Cruiser with three 50 Displacement Ton Cutters In:

  Docking Rings:  The Jump and Maneuver Drives (and anything else selected
based on the total volume of the ship) would be chosen based on 800 Disp
Tons.  Everything designated to be a part of the ship (apart from the
cutters) would need to fit within 650 Dips Tons because 150 Disp Tons is
allocated for the Cutters.

  External Grapples:  The Jump and Maneuver Drives (and anything else
selected based on the total volume of the ship) would be chosen based on 950
Disp Tons.  Everything designated to be a part of the ship (apart from the
cutters) would need to fit within 800 Disp Tons and the Cutters would be an
additional 150 Tons that would be jumping and maneuvering with the ship.

Any Questions?

Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 19:06:48 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma

On Mon, 03 Mar 1997 14:50:57 -0800, you wrote:

> "Kenneth" (not his real name :) ) is feeling invulnerable in his flex =
armor
> with AV 3.  "Marc" (say) sizes him up in the crosshairs of his 6D
> Bandersnatchi gun.

Are you sure that a weapon capable of only 6D damage would really be
called a "Bandersnatchi Gun"?  :P

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:18:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Off Topic Warning)

On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Neil Simpson wrote:

> Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> > 
> > >From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
> > 
> > >"ostensibly".  If one looks closely, it usually seems that the religious
> > >aspect is merely an excuse for an economic one.
> > 
> > >> The Conquistadors in Central/South America
> > >Blantant search for the gold of the aztecs and incas, and colonial
> > >exploitation of the "New World".
> > >
> > >> The New world settlers trying to convert the native american indians
> > >So they could settle peacefully on their new land
> > 
> > exploting the new land and the English were pacefully settling in? Then,
> > could you explain why there is a high percentage of native american people
{snipped a bit}
> >         Carlos.
> --It does have to be said that the main reason that there are very few
> Native Americans in North America is the fact that the US did it best to
> wipe them out.

Mea Culpa, sarcasm mode should have been set to 'on'.  Especially since
I'm a yankee by birth.  (A Northeasterner that is, not a baseball player)
and descended from a Passamaquoddy (The family still doesn't talk about
that though - not the older folks at least).

Many many Native American people were killed by guns in the hands of
settlers in New England and Virginia colonies, as well as later in
just about every other region of the U.S. settled by Anglican descended
settlers.  They were conquistadors and exploiters just like the Spainish.
Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

In defense of all the invaders, many of the deaths caused by them were due
to germs and viruses brought over which the natives of the American
continent had no resistance to.  While not forgiving those who took land
from the Native people, to their credit some of the people who came had no
trouble with the Indians and indeed got along well with them.  The
traditional 'pilgrims' being, originally, in this group. 

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 97 14:29:10 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Off-topic: Credit Cards

Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> wrote:
> At 01:27 AM 3/4/97 -0500, Paul D. Owensby wrote:
> > I have a similiar problem, in that I have several credit cards, but do not
> > feel comfortable sending the numbers over the 'net, especially to a site
> > that makes Netscape begin screeching about being unsecured. 
> 
> This is a personal decision, of course, but I've really changed my feelings
> on this.  Of course you should always be careful with your credit card
> number, but I don't think there's any reason to focus on sending it over
> the net as a particular point of exposure.
> Anyone for "Count of Monte Christo", T4-style?  Probably some good
> adventures in that. :)


It's _possible_ for someone equipped with a "sniffer" program to extract
credit card numbers from the network packets flying by.  It's not easy, but
it's possible (and, IMHO, it'll happen one of these days).

On the other hand, sending your credit-card number over the 'net is at least
as safe as charging something at a store or restaurant (particularly if you
don't personally destroy your carbon paper).

The main reason for wanting secure servers and transactions is to protect
the credit-card company and/or seller from loss.  IF someone "steals" your
number, you can dispute the charge when it appears on your bill - and have
a good chance of winning, since the seller doesn't have your signature on the
charge slip (they can't prove that YOU did indeed make the charge).  Either
the credit-card company or the seller would have to take it on the nose,
and they don't want to do that.

With a secure server, the vendor can prove that the request did indeed come
from the cardholder - protecting themselves and the credit-card issuer from
the possible loss if the charge is disputed.  This also protects you from
the hassle of disputing the charge.

> ObTrav:  how do you handle this sort of situation in your game? 

See below.

> Do you assume perfect encryption?

No, but I assume Pretty Darn Good (PDG) encryption; I extrapolated based on
what was theorized about public-key and trapdoor crpytography at the time
(late seventies); most of it seems to have become possible in the last few
years.

> What if I'm Soc15 but my wealth is in another system several jumps away?

Hopefully you brought your Credit Card with you, with a lot of money on it.
If not, get an X-boat to message your bank, and have them transfer you some
funds (and be prepared to wait several months).

> I played in one campaign that had banks (effectively ATMs) built as
> standard issue into most starships; you'd load them up from a master
> account while in port, and then have to live off of that

I did something similar, except that they were credit-card sized pieces of
plastic and silicon that did the same thing - "smart cards".

In my campaigns, a "Credit Card" (actually a debit card in modern
terminology, but back in '78 I didn't even have an ATM card yet) was
a credit-card-sized computer, with a display, a few buttons, and a socket
(rather like a modern-day PCMCIA card, but with a display and buttons on
top).  One of the buttons was actually a fingerprint scanner (in most
models).

The card itself contained a running balance (which could be displayed by
touching a button) of the money it carried.  THe money was actually "in" the
card - but it's the custom to "clear your card" periodically.  If the card
is lost or stolen the money is gone - BUT you can return to the issuing bank
and request an audit of the card - this will take a while, but eventually
you'll get your money back.  The more recently you've "cleared your card",
the quicker this audit process will be.

To use it, the character would drop the card into a terminal (every starship
had at least one, and practically every bank and business in a starport
or on TL-10+ worlds had one too).  Then you'd ring up the transaction on the
terminal, and the user would transfer money to or from the card by punching
his or her password and pressing "execute".

Banks and moneychangers could use the terminal to issue you cash for a stay
on a world that was too low-tech to accept credits; and everyone carried a
little cash in small denominations for small purchases.  But most
transactions over about Cr 100 were electronic (people who made large cash
purchases were considered suspicious - or possibly even automatically
criminal - depending on the law level of the place.

Inside, encoded with a fairly-secure* public-key cryptography scheme, the
card contained data about the user (name and all that stuff, plus several
ways of identification: a password, fingerprints, a retina scan, and a DNA
scan).  Also in there was a beginning balance and a transaction record; each
transaction encoded with the responsible authority's public key, and
validated with the card's public key.

* Estimated to take over a century to solve with a Model-9 computer.  If you
  could afford the hundred-odd Model-9s it would take to crack the card in
  a reasonable amount of time, you were either a government (in which case
  the Imperial Navy would be paying you a visit Real Soon Now), or were 
  wealthy enough that scamming credit cards is small potatoes.

The card's computer could validate transactions with the user's private key;
the private key was only "unlocked" when someone gave the correct password
and punched the "execute" button with the correct thumbprint.  This recorded
another transaction in the card's database, and adjusted the running
balance.

When a card is "cleared", it's taken to a participating bank and the owner
unlocks the card for audit (if the card has been lost or stolen, the owner
fills out a lot of paperwork, and gets thumbprint, retina, and DNA scans
taken, and then waits for the issuing bank to come up with their copy of the
card data).  The bank reads out all of the transactions, and (checks them
against its database; the initial balance of the card is updated, and the
rest of the transactions are erased from the card (they're retained in the
bank's database).  In the case of a lost or stolen card, the bank relies on
the records in its database to compute what the cards balance should have
been when it was stolen.

Terminals have a database of stolen cards (updated by planetary comm-net,
and by x-boat for offworld banks); they'll refuse to process a stolen card,
and may well cause an alarm.  After a waiting period (so that the bank can
collect all of the transactions made between the time the card was last
cleared and when the loss/theft was reported), the bank will compute the
proper final balance, and issue a new card.

The waiting period can be long, particularly if the card was last cleared on
a different world, or if enough time has passed to make a trip offworld and
return before the loss/theft was reported.

Experienced interstellar travellers "clear their card" with a world's
premier bank immediately on arrival, and again immediately before departure.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 12:18:30 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller on IRC

At 10:59 AM 3/4/97 -0800, Craig Berry wrote:
>> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:11:36 +0000
>> From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
>> 
>> Ok, lets see if I can get everything right this time!
>
>Not quite... :)
>
>> Topic   Ecology 101
>> Speaker:  Craig Berry
>> Date:  Thursday, March 6, 1997
>> Time:  7:00pm CST
>
>Nope, 7:30pm CST (=5:30 PST, 8:30 EST)
>
>I may be a few minutes late; if so, talk amongst yourselves. :)

Can you give us a little background about what you mean by "Ecology 101"?


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:56:52 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Off-topic: credit cards over the Net

I agree with Mike, send your credit card number over the net is actually
far less dangerous than just about any other fashion.

My wife made some mail order purchases over the phone about a year ago, or
so, and got to chatting with the order taker on the other end. 

Turns out he was a prisoner in the texas state penitentiary system,
apparently they had bid and won numerous contracts for phone order
fulfillment with a number of companies.

Given that prisons are one of the major centers of credit card fraud in
the US, my mind still reels at this one...I'll take my chances with the
hackers any old day.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:02:21 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Honest Review of Milieu 0

I've been holding off reviewing M0 because it has taken me a while to 
digest the book--a testament to just how much information is in this 
thing.

Hold your popsickles, M0 is a good background book.



Strengths:
As I just eluded, M0's major strength is the wealth of information 
you get in it.  Just look at these topics that are covered:

	* How the formation of the Imperium came about after the Long Night.

	* Cleon's role in the formation of the Third Imperium.

	* A dialog on the expansion process that the 3I uses to grow.

	* Contact procedures for worlds--from first contact to full 
	integration into the 3I.

	* Things that have gone wrong for the 3I.

	* The creation and role of the Scouts in the 3I.

	* The role of the Imperial Navy.

	* The role of the Imperial Army.

	* The role of the Imperial Marines.

	* Problems of expansion.

	* Power structures and politics in the year 0.

	* Specific info about Sylea.
	
	* Structure of the 3I.

	* Structure of the Vilani Confederation.

	* Intelligence agencies in the year 0.

	* Megacorporations in the year 0.

	* Other companies in the year 0.

	* The Imperial Moot and Nobles.

	* Types of nobles and the Orders of Knighthood.

	* The AAB:  The Vilani Repository of All Knowledge.

	* Referee's info for gamemastering games in the year 0.

	* Sample patron encounters.

	* Year 0 Library Data.

	* Core sector complete ref's data.

	*How the TAS was started.

And there's much, much more.

This book is crammed with info.  It's 110 pages, and there are very 
few pictures.  There's not even that much spacing between sections 
of text--you are basically getting two full columns of background 
material with every page.

Damn.  Just that alone gives it a winning review in my book.  I'd 
compare M0 to the old DGP supplements that everybody loves.  
Remember the Starship Operator's Manual?  Remember how it told you 
everything you wanted to know about how a starship operates?  Well, 
M0 does this for the Milieu 0 campaign.

And another nice perk is that within the sections of text, there are 
adventure ideas on how to use the information presented in a game.

Although I agree with another poster that these adventure hooks 
should have been somehow seperated from the text in a shaded box or 
something, it is great to have them in there.

Nice job guys.



Weaknesses:
I purposely noted the good stuff first, because I don't want these 
negatives to alter the perception that M0 is not a good buy.

But, I do have a few gripes, abeit that some of them are small, 
about M0.  I'll list these in order of appearance in the book.



Art:   Chris Foss is at it again.  The cover pic actually looks very 
Traveller, but it is another one of Chris' bulbous, blimp looking 
space craft dominating the scene.  I sure wish he would draw more 
Traveller looking ships.  At least I can accept this one as a lower 
tech (appropriate to M0) flying craft.  Besides the ship, though, 
the ground scene is extemely Traveller.

The back pick is another one of those domed cities on an asteroid 
pic.  It' OK.  

Eventhough the outside on this supplement is acceptible, the inside 
is, for lack of a better term, crap.  There are 11 B&W ink sketches. 
 A couple of them look like Traveller, but there are two that are 
definitely Robotech (pg 14, pg. 35), one that is definitely D&D (pg. 
43), one that is definitely Car Wars (pg. 85), and one that is 
definitely Judge Dredd (pg. 76).  Of the other 6 remaining, there 
are only that are any good as Traveller pictures  (pg. 27; pg. 65; 
pg. 94). 	

IG has got to get another artist.



Layout:  As with most of the T4 supplements so far, the layout of the 
book is amateurish.  This ones seems more so than that the others.

I can't wait until IG hires that professional graphic designer.



Core Map:  This is another one of those minimal information maps that 
we are continuing to see in T4.  Man, I hate those.  I mean, why have 
a map at all if there is no information on it?  Just to show the 
players where the stars are located?

You can do that with the sector data.  If this trend is to continue, 
I suggest making everybody happy by doing one of two things.  Either 
print a complete map and a blank map for refs to photocopy and detail 
as they see fit (for thier players), or take one more page and print 
two maps--one for the players that only shows star locations, one for 
the referees with complete information.



Rumors:  There are 7 pages of rumors.  That's right--7 pages, two 
columns, gleaned from right here on the TML.

This is a total friggin waste of space.  I actually like rumors.  The 
add flavor to a compaign, but their right place is in an adventure 
module.  I don't know of too many GMs who would actually take these 
three or four lines and write an entire adventure from them.  Maybe 
one or two very, very, very creative GMs with nothing but time on 
their hands would do this, but I really doubt enough will to warrant 
the use of 7 pages in this book.  Bad decision--whoever made that 
one.

What I would have done with this space is one of two things.  I would 
have provided TNS news articles for use in campaigns (a much better 
idea than rumors), but that's only if this type of idea had to be in 
the book.

If I really had my way, I would have put some game rules specific to 
M0 here.  Above, I compared M0 to DGP's SOM.  One thing the SOM had 
that M0 doesn't is a couple pages of rules specific to the content of 
that supplement.

M0 does have a rule of two in amongst the pages, but there could have 
been more here.  What?  I dunno.  Maybe ship encounter tables 
specific to the Core sector or the Sylean system.  Maybe a map of 
Sylea.  Maybe rules for encountering specific types of races, or even 
a new alien race.  Maybe Imperial Navy hailing procedures.  Maybe a 
section of Imperial Naval, Marine, Scout, and Army equipment.  A 
drawing of a M0 soldier with the specific gear pointed out would be 
nice.  Maybe they could have given us never before seen information 
on starports.  Since a major mission of the 3I is expansion, 
detailing the major functions included in a starport, and rules for 
establishing starports, would have been a good use of the space.

The point is, a lot more relevant information could have been place 
on the 7 pages that the rumors took up.


What's missing in M0?  I expected to find a graphical representation, 
like the shaded maps in the MT Referee's guide showing the wars of 
the Imperium, printed inside M0 detailing the expansion of the new 
Third Imperium.  I would have liked 3-5 maps showing the different 
growth stages the Imperium goes through in between the year 0 and the 
year 200 when the next milieu starts.



Summary:
All in all, though, the M0 book is a good buy just because it 
contains so much information.  It is not a real gaming resource in 
that it has very few rules.  What it does have is tons and tons of 
background information on the M0 milieu.

How useable is this?  Well, I like reading Traveller background 
material, so for me, it's good stuff.  If you don't like reading 
Traveller history, politics, and Library data, then this book is 
definitely not for you because that's all M0 is--a very good book of 
3I background and history.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:23:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Cleon a "good guy"?

> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:00:27 -0500 (EST)
> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
> >Is the Third Imperium what happens when Luke & Han fail to destroy the Death
> >Star?
> 
> In a word, no. Marc was referring to the general ambience of movie and game.
> He did not mean that Emperor Green-face and Cleon Z. were one and the same.
> If you need to use "Good-Guy/Bad-Guy" labels, Cleon is a Good-Guy.

I very, very, VERY strongly doubt that Cleon is unambiguously a "good
guy."  People with enough ambition, willpower, and political smarts to
become emperors ruling billions of people are very seldom motivated only
by sweetness and light.  Men and women who get to the top are most
commonly driven by the simple desire for *power*, pure and simple, and
inevitably have to engage in some dirty deeds along the way, if only to
counteract dirtier ones by their opponents.

I cannot imagine that Cleon's assumption of autocratic power went
unprotested.  I am certain there were widespread demonstrations all over
Sylea and beyond -- especially at the universities -- decrying Cleon's
single-handed destruction of a fine republican tradition, and accusing him
of being a dictator and worse.  I'm also quite sure that Cleon had his
security forces ready to contain any riots that started, using deadly
force if necessary.

We tend to forget that it's hard to judge how someone will be seen by
history from the viewpoint of the start of their career.  At the very
beginning, Hitler was an able, dynamic, passionately committed leader,
whose primary aim was Germany's economic and social recovery from the
chaos of reparations payments and ineffectual government (look up "Weimar
inflation", and find out why Hitler was welcomed with open arms).

On the other side of the equation, Lincoln, while running for President,
repeatedly reassured audiences that he entirely supported slavery, and had
no intention of pressing the South on this issue; this won him the
critical support of big business and the South.  When he went to war to
prevent the South's secession, he did so without a shred of Constitutional
support for doing so; after all, why shouldn't states be permitted
voluntary withdrawal from a voluntary federation?  This point was made
heatedly in Northern as well as Southern newspapers at the start of the
Civil War.

Needless to say, we now see Hitler as a villain, and Lincoln as a hero;
but in neither case could you tell which was coming from their origins.
We must, from the point of view of early Milieu 0, have the same
perspective on Cleon.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:12:53 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Task System

> Someone already mentioned this, and I'm thinking of playing around with it
> for a bit to see how I like it, but I think it would fix many problems if
> you doubled the skill numbers.
> 
> We all pretty much agree that a professional/expert is somewhere between a
> T4 skill of -3 and -4.  Well, double the skill level and you get a skill of
> -7, the same average as the attribute(stat).
> 
> The difficulty rolls would then be paterned around the normal difficulty for
> an average professional.  Part of the playing I want to do is see how viable
> this is with the 1D/2D/3D/4D/5D/6D system.

Paul, I thought that you might want to know that I have already tried 
this as KBv2.0, and it didn't work.  Doubling the skill gives you a 
target number way too high--espeically at the low end.

Ex--
You have skill-3 and Stat-7?  You think that you are pretty average, 
huh?  

Well, that would give you a target number of 13.  Easy rolls are 
100%.  Average rolls are 100%, and you are way above average for 
Difficult.

I've already moved on to another idea for KBv2.0.  Results, so far 
are good, but I have to fix one snag.  I'm close to posting what I've 
got.

Kenneth.
(Just thought that I'd save you some time)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:58:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Heretics and the Four Horsemen

>David J. Golden wrote:

>	Hey, are any of the Horseman slots still available? Loren certainly
>deserves to be a major heretic! I think I've been named Famine, and
>wasn't Harold Death? or War? I dunno...

As a devout TNE player, I think I qualify.

Can I be Pestilence? I think it fits my personality quite well! <g>

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:00 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: THUDDD Future Rules

Here are a few rules to take into consideration for when I get THUDDD in
April. Watch for some more rules clarifications and such soon.

First things First, a few small modifications to the Wildstar Standard USP:

>Ship or Class Name and Type (Design System)
>
> Tons: ### Std (Config)   Volume: ###### m^3    Cost: #### MCr (####MCr)
> Crew: ####        High/Mid Pass: ##/##          Low: ##
>Cargo: ## Std           Controls: Type (Bridge)   TL: ##
>
>## Size                               ## Jump Drive (## Std/Pc Fuel)
>                                      ## Maneuver (Type, ## Mw)
>##x BatteryName (##) #/##-##-##-##    ## Power Plant (#x ##Mw)
>##x BatteryName (##) ##/##            ## Fuel (Scoop ##, Refine ##)
> w/ ## MissileName #/# #G##           ## Meson Screen (## Mw)
>                                      ## Sandcasters (#### Cans)
>##x SpecialFacility (##std ea)        ## Nuclear Damper
>##x LaunchFacility (Craft)            A# P# J# Sensors (# Stealth/Cloak)
>##x HangarFacility (Craft)            ## Armor, ## Structure
>
>Crew Detail: ## Command, ## Sensors, ## Gunners, ## Engineer, ## Steward
>             ## Troops, etc as needed ...
>
>Notes: Explanations and details of the above as needed.
>
>Additional comments and description in additional paragraphs.
>
>USPs and comments for carried craft follow.
>
>Design Sequence numbers are listed last if they are included.
>

Ok, the additions:

1. The total cost is listed first with the discounted cost (if applicable)
in parenthesis following it.

2.  The Special Facilities (ie, Sick Bay, Science Lab, Mechanics Shop)
should also be in the area with the carried craft and such.  The tonnage per
unit is included afterwards.

3. Finally, the official addition of the design sequence.

Now, have some...

THUDDD Design Expectations and Standards:

The following issues have risen thus far, and more are sure to come up.
Check here often for the most current rulings. (Rulings on current 
issues will be posted to the TML as well.)

Required Crew:  When figuring the crew requirements for a ship, assume
the ship is operating at full level (See Economic Notes Below).  This 
means all positions necessary must be filled.  YOU MUST HAVE A SEPERATE 
PILOT AND ASTROGATOR FOR SHIPS WITH BOTH JUMP AND MANEUVER DRIVES.

Economic issues:  For ships that are designed for shipping or
transportation, the comments following the USP Notes MUST include a 
economic breakdown in the following format:


Down Payment:
		      O P E R A T I N G   L E V E L
          |     Full     |   Standard   | Maintenance  |    Special   |
- ----------|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
INCOME    |              |              |              |              |
    Cargo:|              |              |              |              |
Passenger:|              |              |              |              |
     Mail:|              |              |              |              |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
TOTAL INC:|              |              |              |              |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
EXPENSE   |              |              |              |              |
  Payment:|              |              |              |              |
     Fuel:|              |              |              |              |
 Life Spt:|              |              |              |              |
    Maint:|              |              |              |              |
 Berthing:|              |              |              |              |
 Salaries:|              |              |              |              |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
TOTAL EXP:|              |              |              |              |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
  Revenue:|              |              |              |              |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
Notes:


All figures are to be calculated based on an annual period.  For the 
sake of simplicity, assume one standard trip takes 2 weeks, 12 months 
per year, and 52 weeks per year.  For income, assume 25 trips per 
year (one week is spent in annual maintenance).

Operating Levels:
  Full - As the name implies, this assumes a full cargo hold and full 
passenger register.  For the expenses, assume fuel is scooped (if ship
is equipped with purifier) and that berthing is only one week.
  Standard - This level assumes 80% of the cargo hold is full and 80%
booking for passengers.  For expenses, assume 5 trips the fuel must be 
purchased (if ship has purifier for the other trips) and that for 5 
trips, the berthing is one extra day (5 days total).
  Maintenance - This level assumes 20% of the cargo hold is full and 20%
booking for passengers.  For expenses, assume 20 trips the fuel must be
purchased (if ship has purifier for the other trips) and that for 20 
trips, the berthing is one extra day (20 days total).
  Special - If there is some optimized level for your vessel, then 
enter the figures here and explain the details of the level in the 
notes area.

Amounts:
  Down Payment: 20% of the discounted price is the down payment amount.
Down payments must also be paid for Subsidized starships.
Income:
  Cargo:  If A Broker/Trader position is included in the crew (as a 
permanent member of the crew) then use 2000Cr to reflect the advantage 
of speculative trading.  If only a Broker/Trader Salary is included 
(indicating a Broker/Trader hired at each world) then use 1500Cr to 
reflect the advantage of partial speculative trading (the lower amount 
is to reflect that the person at the selling world is different than 
the person at the buying world).  Finally, if no Broker/Trader
allowance is made, use 1000Cr for standard cargo rates.
  Passengers:  All passengers are allotted an amount of cargo space 
relevant to the type of passage they have purchased.  Lo passengers are
given 0.1 std of storage under their bunk.  Mid Passengers are given 
0.5 std of cargo area. Hi passengers are given 1.0 std of cargo area.  
Working passengers are allowed what room they have in their quarters 
or bunk.  The area for Hi and Mid passengers will need to be subtracted
from the total cargo volume before cargo income is computed.  Hi 
Passengers Pay 10,000Cr, Mid Passengers Pay 8,000, and Lo Passengers pay
1,000Cr.  Normally (passenger liners being the exception) a ship will 
not carry more than its displacement tonnage divided by 20 (Dt/20) 
passengers.
  Mail:  Only Subsidised Merchants are allowed to carry mail.  They 
must be armed, have a gunner as part of the crew, and allocat 5 std. 
for mail.  The payment for mail (regardless of the amount sent) is 
5,000Cr per std. or a total of 25,000Cr.  The payment is made regardless
of whether the mail is available or not.

Expenses:
  Payment: The standard ship payment is 1/240th of the ships discounted 
price per month.  The exception is for subsidized ships which pay half 
of their total income to the government that subsidized the vessel.
  Fuel:  The prices for fuel are standardized throughout the Imperium at
500Cr per std. for refined fuel and 100Cr per std. for unrefined fuel. 
Unless a ship is equipped with purification equipment, it MUST use 
refined fuel in order to get an Imperial Certification (and any ship
designed to carry passengers or cargo will need Imperial Certification
in order to get business).
  Life Support:  The cost for life support cleaning and restocking is 
2000Cr per occupied stateroom per trip and 100Cr per occupied lo berth 
per trip.  Double Occupancy requires twice this amount.
  Maintenance:  Annual maintenance costs are 0.1% of the purchase price
of the ship.  This includes the berthing costs for that week.
  Berthing:  Berthing costs are 100Cr for landing and six days stay and
100Cr for each additional day.  Each trip requires berthing fees for at
least six days.
  Salaries:  Crew salaries are paid per month.  Assume all crews are at
skill level-2.  Crew Salaries are as follows:
   Command         Leadership     -2     6,600Cr
   Pilot           Pilot          -2     6,600Cr
   Navigator       Astrogation    -2     5,500Cr
   Engineer        Engineer       -2     4,400Cr
   Sensors         Sensors        -2     3,300Cr
   Communicat.     Comm           -2     3,300Cr
   Broker          Broker         -2     3,300Cr
   Trader          Trader         -2     3,300Cr
   Medic           Medical        -2     2,200Cr
   Steward         ?Steward?      -2     2,200Cr
   Electronics     Electrician    -2     2,200Cr
   Maintenance     Mechanical     -2     2,200Cr
   Gunner          Gunner         -2     1,100Cr
   Screens         ScreenType     -2     1,100Cr
   Ship Troops     Weapon/Tactics -2     1,100Cr
  If a crew member is performing more than one Job, he will get paid at 
the higher of the two rates.  Ex:  Steward/Gunner will get 2,200Cr.


This information will eventually make it to the official THUDDD web pages at
my web site, but for now, cut it, print it, save it.  Also, this info is not
to be construed as a "new" economic rules set, these are simply assumptions
to make and standards to use to ensure that we are comparing apples with
apples in our ship design competition.  I will try to post a design using
the newer format and the Economic considerations later.

More later,

Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1022
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 4 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1023



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Women in Trav
Please help, I need to contact DGP
Re: Alien Book
THUDD Competition - Aurelian Industries Reworked Entry (Long)
Femail Gamers
Re: Jump "fuel"
errata for CT
acceleration in post-CT rules
I must leave ...
Re: Skill Acquisition Extension
Re: Heretics and the Four Horsemen
Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
Re: Heretics and the Four Horsemen
Re: THUDDD Proclomation
Re: Focus of the List
Re: Star Wars
Re: Kenneth Bearden's Review
Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
Ecology 101 -- what it's about (was Trav on IRC)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:02:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Women in Trav

Stuart Dollar wrote:

>>GDW's Knightfall, for one, featured 2 Vilani females, and a female Vargr.

Yeah, but the captain of their ship, the Gimuqshabika, was a man. So much
for liberated roleplaying! <g>

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 14:10:57 -0800
From: KevinC <kevinc@cnetech.com>
Subject: Please help, I need to contact DGP

I need to contact the current owner of DGP, to find out the copyright
status of the 2300AD articles that appeared in Travellers Digest
magazine.  Did DGP buy all rights, or just first publication?

I believe the new owner of DGP is Roger Sanger ( hope I spelled it
right), does anyone know his email address, or how to contact him?

On my fan web page for 2300AD( see my sig for the URL), I am creating an
archive of out-of-print 2300AD related articles, after getting
permission from the copyright holders ( plus Tantalus Inc.'s net
disclaimer).

KevinC
kevinc@cnetech.com
Pentapod's World     http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 17:22:55 -0800
From: John Watts <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

>Excuse me, but IG is not marketing this game exclusively to those of
>us with a long history in Traveller.  The newbie going to the game
>store doesn't even know the Aslan and Vargr exist. I can't imagine
>Traveller without these races, can you?  But that is how Traveller
>would be presented to new players if IG does not issue "yet another
>Vargr/Aslan book"!  If it is not of use to you, don't buy it.

I agree, but yet humbly disagree.  It would seem to me that attracting 
both groups is in order here.  I would suggest a book along the lines of 
Vargr/Minor races of the Early Third Imperium.  I dont see the Aslan 
being someone to be dealt with ( I have yet to get hold of M:0 or FS, so 
maybe I'm speaking from ignorance here ) at this time.  The minor races 
of this area are BEGGING to be dealt with.  At best on most of the races, 
we have a page or so from an old JTAS ( except of course the Geonee with 
their online sourcebook ( authors name and URL forgotten ) which is 
great ).  

The minor races cannot be found by the new player ( or the casual player 
for that matter.... have you ever tried going to a con and finding back 
issues of JTAS?  would you want a new player to try and do this? ).  How 
many new players know about Ael Yeal??

Further, this would increase the attractiveness of the product to us " 
older " ( hey I'm 26 dammit ) players.  I have no real desire to buy a 
book with a retread ( or worse yet changes ) of the old material.  
However, a partial retread with expansion of the old JTAS minor races 
would be a treasure.

Just my opinion.... I could be wrong.




- -- 
"*#%& the censors!!!!"

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 97 10:51:30 MS
From: Steve Charlton/IFSNA <Steve_Charlton@Avalon.COM>
Subject: THUDD Competition - Aurelian Industries Reworked Entry (Long)

Due to an overanxious PR intern, the previous posting of these designs went out 
before the jumpr drives had been upgraded to support the additional volume from 
carried small craft.  The following versions are correct, and as usual the 
costs do not include small craft.

In response to the recent Imperial RFP, "Armed Paramilitary Transport (Light)", 
Aurelian Industries submits the following tender:

Gladius-class Light Paramilitary Transport
This vessel is designed to transport a small force (up to 47 troops) into a 
potentially-hostile landing zone, either directly or via the carried 30-ton 
Ship's Boat.  The vessel is armed with an array of missile and laser weapons, 
allowing the ship to support a landing operation, defend a landing zone from 
approaching ground or aerospace forces, or even destroy light to moderate space 
defenses.  This vessel is also quite suitable as a exploration ship, allowing a 
group of trained scouts or observers to get into a dangerous area without 
needless risk.

The Gladius features a 10-ton minmal hangar deck for any vehicles used by the 
platoon, which doubles as a centralized meeting room for the troops and crew.  
There is also a machine shop to aid in the repair of the unit's vehicles, 
weapons or equipment after action, as well as a fully-equipped 2-bed sickbay.  
There are also five low berths to aid in getting seriously wounded troops to a 
proper hospital, or for securely transporting important prisoners.  In 
addition, there is more than 11 tons of cargo space available for carrying 
additional supplies.  To aid in long-range expeditions, the ship is equipped 
with fuel scoops, and carries an on-board fuel purifier capable of processing 
10 tons of fuel per hour, enough to fully process the total fuel allotment (ju
mp and power plant) in about 13 hours.

Tons:  600 Std SL Slab   Volume:8400 M3        Cost: 423.66375 MCr
Crew:  25 (74)           High/Mid Psg: 0       Low:  5
Cargo: 10                Controls: Fib/Bridge  TL:   12
8 Size                             2 Jump (140 tons fuel, 2pc)
                                   2 Maneuver (Thrusters, 308MW)
2x Laser Battery(+4)1/4-4-3-2      3 Power (5x 200MW)
4x Missile Barb (+4) 20/16         151 Fuel (Scoop, Refine 10)
  w/20 missiles (per user)         0 Meson Screen
                                   3 Sandcasters (30 each)
                                   2 Nuclear Damper (15 MW Each)
                                   A10P4J10 Sensors TL12
                                   10 Armor  15 Structure

Crew and Berthing Details:
3 Engineering, 2 Electronic, 2 Maneuver, 6 Gunnery, 5 Screens, 1 Small Craft 
Crew, 40 troops, 10 Command (3 without troops), 4 Stewards (2 without troops), 
1 Medical.  There are 40 bunks for the troops, 10 small staterooms for the 
Command Crew, and 12 Large Staterooms for the rest of the crew (double 
occupancy).  There is a Vehicle Shop, a Sickbay and a 10-ton Minimal Hangar for 
vehicles.  There is a streamlined 30-ton grapple for the Ship's Boat.  Jump 
drive size and fuel requirements were caluculated on a 700 ton hull, due to the 
external craft.

Please address all questions and correspondence regarding this vessel (and 
other Aurelian Industries products) to

Linus Ishigli, MarCom Director
Aurelian Industries
Aurelian, Capital, Core
scharlto@avalon.com (weekday)
scharlto@rtd.com (weekend)
NOTE:  Actual construction figures for all vessels available upon request 
(spreadsheet)



Also presented for comparison are the other two Paramilitary Starships 
available from Aurelian Industries.  While these are generally out of the price 
range of most start-up mercenary companies, they are very popular with some of 
the more well-established organizations,and even with some smaller new members 
of the Imperium looking to build up a military capacity beyond their planetary 
defense forces.


Claymore-class Medium Paramilitary Transport
This vessel, like the Gladius, is designed to transport a small force (up to 58 
troops) into a potentially-hostile landing zone, either directly or via the 
carried 50-ton Cutter.  This ship is a larger and upgunned version of the 
Gladius, with an upgraded sensor suite and twice the firepower of the Gladius.  

The Claymore features a 10-ton spacious hangar deck for any vehicles used by 
the platoon, which doubles as a centralized meeting room for the troops and 
crew.  There is also a machine shop to aid in the repair of the unit's 
vehicles, weapons or equipment after action, as well as a fully-equipped 2-bed 
sickbay.  There are also five low berths to aid in getting seriously wounded 
troops to a proper hospital, or for securely transporting important prisoners.  
In addition, there is more than 19 tons of cargo space available for carrying 
additional supplies.  To aid in long-range expeditions, the ship is equipped 
with fuel scoops, and carries an on-board fuel purifier capable of processing 
10 tons of fuel per hour, enough to fully process the total fuel allotment 
(jump and power plant) in about 22 hours.

Tons:  1000 Std SL Slab  Volume:14000 M3       Cost: 810.42225
Crew:  41 (101)          High/Mid Psg: 0       Low:  5
Cargo: 19                Controls: Fib/Bridge  TL:   12
9 Size                             2 Jump (220 tons fuel, 2pc)
                                   3 Maneuver (Thrusters, 756Mw)
4x Laser Battery(+4)1/4-4-3-2      4 Power (11x 200MW)
8x Missile Barb (+4) 40/32         243 Fuel (Scoop, Refine 10)
  w/40 missiles (per user)         0 Meson Screen
                                   6 Sandcasters (30 each)
                                   4 Nuclear Damper (15 MW Each)
                                   A16P5J16 Sensors TL12
                                   10 Armor  18 Structure

Crew and Berthing Details:
5 Engineering, 2 Maneuver, 2 Electronics, 12 Gunnery, 10 Screens, 1 Small Craft 
Crew, 50 troops, 14 Command (6 without troops), 4 Stewards (2 without troops), 
1 Medical.  There are 50 bunks for the troops, 15 small staterooms for the 
Command Crew and Medic, and 18 Large Staterooms for the rest of the crew 
(double occupancy).  There is a Vehicle Shop, a Sickbay and a 20-ton Spacious 
Hangar for vehicles.  There is a streamlined 50-ton grapple for the Cutter. J
ump drive size and fuel requirements were caluculated on a 1100 ton hull, due 
to the external craft.


Lochaber-class Heavy Paramilitary Transport
Designed for the large corporate security force or small government, the 
Lochaber is the powerhouse of the Paramilitary Transport line.  Displacing 
three times the volume of the Claymore, the Lochaber's armament is 
proportionally greater, and features a high-powered Particle Accelerator gun.  
This vessel is designed to transport a reinforced company of 230 troops, either 
directly or via its four carried 50-ton Cutters.  While larger and more heavily 
armored than its small cousins, the Lochaber is equipped with the latest in 
Sylean thruster technology, allowing it to reach the same speeds as the other 
vessels.  

The Lochaber features a 50-ton spacious hangar deck for any vehicles used by 
the unit, which doubles as a centralized meeting room for the troops and crew.  
There are also two machine shops to aid in the repair of the unit's vehicles, 
weapons or equipment after action, as well as a fully-equipped 4-bed sickbay.  
There are also ten low berths to aid in getting seriously wounded troops to a 
proper hospital, or for securely transporting important prisoners.  In 
addition, there is more than 140 tons of cargo space available for carrying 
additional supplies.  To aid in long-range expeditions, the ship is equipped 
with fuel scoops, and carries an on-board fuel purifier capable of processing 
50 tons of fuel per hour, enough to fully process the total fuel allotment 
(jump and power plant) in about 14 hours.

Tons:  3000 Std SL Slab  Volume:42000 M3       Cost: 1944.01275 MCr
Crew:  80 (321)          High/Mid Psg: 0       Low:  10
Cargo: 140               Controls: Fib/Bridge  TL:   12
9 Size                             2 Jump (600 tons fuel, 2pc)
                                   3 Maneuver (Thrusters, 2254Mw)
4x Laser Battery(+4)1/8-7-4-3      5 Power (10x 750MW)
10x Missile Barb (+4) 50/40        720 Fuel (Scoop, Refine 50)
  w/50 missiles (per user)         0 Meson Screen
                                   12 Sandcasters (30 each)
                                   8 Nuclear Damper (15 MW Each)
                                   A16P5J16 Sensors TL12
                                   20 Armor  28 Structure

Crew and Berthing Details:
14 Engineering, 2 Maneuver, 2 Electronics, 16 Gunnery, 20 Screens, 8 Small 
Craft Crew, 200 troops, 44 Command (11 without troops), 12 Stewards (4 without 
troops), 3 Medical.  There are 200 bunks for the troops, 45 small staterooms 
for the Command Crew, and 40 Large Staterooms for the rest of the crew (double 
occupancy).  There are 2 Vehicle Shops, 2 Sickbays and a 50-ton Spacious Hangar 
for vehicles.  There are 4 streamlined 50-ton grapple for the 4 Cutters.  ump 
drive size and fuel requirements were caluculated on a 3200 ton hull, due to 
the external craft.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 22:41:25 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Femail Gamers

In my wednesday group we have 8 players 3 are femail, however 1 of the
girls is playing a male character and 2 men are playing femail characters
just for a change. 

But i do agree that there are not enough femail RPGers around, all though
there seems to be more now than 10 years ago.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 23:54:52 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump "fuel"

Andrew Boulton writes:
><< During the next week this "fuel", dissipates slowly into hyperspace
>thinning the surrounding shell.  After about 1 week (and it varies because
>more or less "fuel"..of varying purity is injected, the "fuel" dissipates
>at slightly different rates, and the local conditions of hyperspace are
>never really known) the shell has thinned to the point where the ship POPS
>out of hyperspace and back into normal space. >>
> 
>Good idea, but it doesn't really fit with canon (which says the 'fuel' 
>really *is* fuel).

Actually it fits... well, not _perfectly_, but a lot better than any other
explanation I've seen. There's one CT rule in particular which allows a
ship to charge it's capacitors with the energy absorbed by a black globe.
But the ship can only jump, even after its capacitors are fully charged,
if it has a full load of "fuel".

So apparently _none_ of it is used for power generation nor coolant, 
_Starship operator's Manual_ to the contrary notwithstanding. (Which is all 
to the good, because if it was used for power and coolant then there are 
several better ways to do it (You can, for example, carry more hydrogen as
water than as LHyd and you could use the oxygen for coolant to boot)).

And there's a perfectly good reason why it's called fuel: it can be used
interchangably as power plant fuel and "jumpspace entry mass". So people
tend to call it fuel. Only technicians and nitpickers call it entry mass.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 00:00:00 +0200
From: n.violet@krypta.aball.de (Norman Violet)
Subject: errata for CT

Hello traveller !

I don't think that there is a errata for CT books?


Great thanks!

Bye,
Norman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 00:00:00 +0200
From: n.violet@krypta.aball.de (Norman Violet)
Subject: acceleration in post-CT rules

Hello travellers !

Is the maximum acceleration of starships still limited to 6g as in CT?

Because of what? Lacking technology for anti-grav compensators to protect  
the crew? Then why no rockets exist which can accelerate with 10g or more?

Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter (jets)  
pilots about the same.


Bye,
Norman

If this is timesharing, give me my share right now.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 00:00:00 +0200
From: n.violet@krypta.aball.de (Norman Violet)
Subject: I must leave ...

Hello!

I just recently subscribed here and now I must leave you again!

Technical problems (too many mails here! In early '96 there were much fewer  
mails here, of course then there were two seperate lists (xboat and  
traveller)) .....

If there are any answers to my questions, please send them directly to

n.violet@krypta.aball.de

so that all anger (to me) was not for nothing.

I wish I could stay ...



Bye,
Norman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 00:00:00 +0200
From: n.violet@krypta.aball.de (Norman Violet)
Subject: Re: Skill Acquisition Extension

Hello Traveller!

"aramis # asylumbbs.com" wrote ...

a>Note: I found no statements granting a skill for being promoted in any of
a>the CT or MT Adv CGen rules. If this is correct, then Adv Gen is highly
a>abused, as EVERYONE I know using Adv.

In the first CT book it is definitly noted, and even in the second book it  
is, but hidden in someone ...:

(I have a translated version, so I can't give you the number of the pages -  
in addition I must guess the chapter names)

- - In the chapter 'characters', 'the mission' it's noted, that scout  
characters get one new skill per obtained promotion.

 - In the appendix for character generation every 'to-do-list' for the  
generation reads:

        2) play mission
                a) survive?
                b) promotion
                c) skills check. Determine the skills for this check and/or
                   for being promoted.

- - In the last paragraph of 'characters' a generation sample (the subengineer  
Theo Genisand) reads for example: 'Genisand has obtained three skills in his  
first year (for being promoted to M1, for the positiv skill check and for  
getting his commision to O0).

These three examples should show that your aren't correct, but indeed it's  
quite well hidden.


Bye,
Norman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 15:39:00 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Heretics and the Four Horsemen

At 01:58 PM 3/4/97 -0800, Chris Griffen wrote:
>>David J. Golden wrote:
>>	Hey, are any of the Horseman slots still available? Loren certainly
>>deserves to be a major heretic! I think I've been named Famine, and
>>wasn't Harold Death? or War? I dunno...
>
>As a devout TNE player, I think I qualify.
>
>Can I be Pestilence? I think it fits my personality quite well! <g>

Then I will be the FIFTH horseman: Don Quixote, Eternal Tilter at
Windmills.  Fits my personality too. :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:19:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

 
> Is the maximum acceleration of starships still limited to 6g as in CT?
 
No.

> Because of what? Lacking technology for anti-grav compensators to protect  
> the crew? Then why no rockets exist which can accelerate with 10g or more?

It is related to g-compensation as you suggest.  
 
> Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter (jets)  
> pilots about the same.

And traveller ships could do this as well, but only for similar
periods of time.  The grav-comp limits are for continuous use,
transient g-loads higher than comp by 6gs or so would be possible if
you had the drive to do it.
 
Turns in the various space combat systems are as short as 20
minutes, but still long compared to the few seconds a fighter pilot
has to deal with a load of 6 gs.  Some clearer rules about just what
can and can't be done isn't a bad idea, though.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:20:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

 
> Is the maximum acceleration of starships still limited to 6g as in CT?
 
No.

> Because of what? Lacking technology for anti-grav compensators to protect  
> the crew? Then why no rockets exist which can accelerate with 10g or more?

It is related to g-compensation as you suggest.  
 
> Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter (jets)  
> pilots about the same.

And traveller ships could do this as well, but only for similar
periods of time.  The grav-comp limits are for continuous use,
transient g-loads higher than comp by 6gs or so would be possible if
you had the drive to do it.
 
Turns in the various space combat systems are as short as 20
minutes, but still long compared to the few seconds a fighter pilot
has to deal with a load of 6 gs.  Some clearer rules about just what
can and can't be done isn't a bad idea, though.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 16:26:55 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

At 12:00 AM 3/4/97 +0200, Norman Violet wrote:
>Hello travellers !
>
>Is the maximum acceleration of starships still limited to 6g as in CT?
>
>Because of what? Lacking technology for anti-grav compensators to protect  
>the crew? Then why no rockets exist which can accelerate with 10g or more?
>
>Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter (jets)  
>pilots about the same.

Is that true?  I thought no humans currently could function at more than
about 3g, even with a g-suit.  Anyone know for sure?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 16:36:45 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Heretics and the Four Horsemen

At 01:58 PM 3/4/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>	Hey, are any of the Horseman slots still available? Loren certainly
>>deserves to be a major heretic! I think I've been named Famine, and
>>wasn't Harold Death? or War? I dunno...

>Can I be Pestilence? I think it fits my personality quite well! <g>

Hey!  Here I sit on disability because of cancer, multiple cases of
pneumonia, shingles, and many other little secondary infections, and YOU
want to be Pestilence?  I don't think so, healthy-boy!

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 00:47:57 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Proclomation

At 06:52 PM 3/4/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>Grapples and Docking Ring Issues:
>
> <snip>
>
>  QSDS does not really allow for Docking Rings.  QSDS takes a prebuilt hull
>and fits it with standard parts, and as such, there are no areas where the
>indentation can be made for a docking ring.  For practical purposes,
>however, assume that this can be done and that the docking ring area is
>available (hollowed out) within the hull.  While in reality, the price
>involved would not allow the discounted rate, for game purposes, don't worry
>about this.
>
><snip>
>
>Any Questions?
>
>Paul {tiger}
>tiger@goldinc.com
>http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger
>
>

I don't know if this has been suggested, what about making the 50 ton and
100 ton bays in the design tables plug compatable with standardized 50 and
100 ton docking ring inserts?

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:58:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

In a message dated 97-03-02 23:33:52 EST, you write:

>there are no true babes in Traveller (characters, not players).

We have been running into "babes" galore. All the ones who aren't stuck up
are heavily armed. Maybe this is your sort of thing...
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 20:09:24 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Star Wars

> <snip>...
>Which implies that Cleon is ....
>
>Is the Third Imperium what happens when Luke & Han fail to destroy the Death
>Star?
>
>Much of the discussions I have read lately imply that most players are in
>favor of the Imperium and Cleon.  Should we look for or develop some
>materials on those groups who would prefer the Sylean Federation remain a
>federation instead of merrily assuming you can inherit the right to rule? 
>
>Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy? 
>

This would be interesting - one or more source books detailing the campaigns
of conquest from the *other* side... Remember how cool it was to trash the
Imperium in GDW's old game of the same name?  After all, history is merely
what happened as retold by somebody with an ax to grind and all we've read
so far has been written by Imperium historians...


- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:04:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Kenneth Bearden's Review

Kenneth:

Thanks for the in-depth review. I admit that when I perused M0 at a nearby
gaming store in Palo Alto and I was severely underwhelmed by the poor
formatting and layout. The interior art did little to win me over.

Since I was on my lunch hour, however, I didn't get the chance to really
read the darn book, so I couldn't judge the quality of the content. I was
ready to dismiss this as another shoddy product and move on, but you've
sold me. I'll buy it based on content with the hope that future products
will show improvement in other areas.

Too bad my holdout for my beloved TNE game mechanics will go unrequited,
but I'm willing to shell out my hard-earned cash for well-written
background material. What can I say? I'm a Traveller-history-phile.

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 20:06:26 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

At 12:00 AM 3/4/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Hello travellers !
>
>Is the maximum acceleration of starships still limited to 6g as in CT?
>
>Because of what? Lacking technology for anti-grav compensators to protect  
>the crew? Then why no rockets exist which can accelerate with 10g or more?

        In TNE and T4, there are no "arbitrary" limits on how fast anything
can accelerate, only what the crew can tolerate. Therefore, if you have a
10G drive, but only 6G compensation, if your crew can tolerate 4G, you're
fine. But they can't for very long.

>Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter (jets)  
>pilots about the same.

        Certainly, for seconds (fighters), to tens of seconds (shuttle). But
not for extended periods of time. I have a reference at home somewhere which
gives various levels of acceleration and how long you can tolerate it.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:06:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Ecology 101 -- what it's about (was Trav on IRC)

> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 12:18:30 -0800
> From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
> 
> Can you give us a little background about what you mean by "Ecology 101"?

Basically, I want to follow on from Doug's "Planetology 101."  He showed
us how to create a ball of rock with the right gravity, atmosphere,
temperature, and so forth; I'm hoping to follow on with how to put in
consistent flora and fauna.  My major points will be:

- - What is life?
- - Where life comes from
- - The biosphere as a whole
- - Biomes (communities)
- - Creatures

Basically, a general-to-specific pass through the subject.  I'm willing to
follow up on side topics and specific questions that come up at the time,
of course.  The overall goal is to convey how life both shapes and is
shaped by its planet, and how to make the life on your worlds consistent
and 'believable'.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1023
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1024



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0
A Problem with First Survey
Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)
Re: In-system campaign: economics?
Re: Off-topic: credit cards over the Net
Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Subject: Heresy
Federation forever, Imperium never!
Re: Task System
Re: Task System
Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)
Re: Focus of the List
Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Federation forever, Imperium never!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 17:18:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0

     I agree with most points of Kenneth's Milieu 0 review, positive and
negative, except for a couple of quibbles.

First, he says it's "not really a gaming resource" because it doesn't have much
of any rules info, but I don't really agree with that (well, the former part,
the latter's a statement of fact) because of all the great adventure hooks.  I
have no doubt that if and when I run a Milieu 0 campaign I will use lots of
this stuff, much moreso than the SOM, which pretty much just sat and gathered
dust after I read through it.  Perhaps some more rules-y stuff would have been
appropriate, but I think that claiming it's not really a gaming resource is
going way too far.

Second, the rumors.  Yes, 7 pages was too much.  Yes, the space could have been
used much more effectively.  However, I was entertained by a lot of these and
if/when I run a Milieu 0 campaign I definitely plan to intersperse them
liberally with "real" rumors-- as background, curiosities, red herrings, and,
if the players actually decide to follow things up, maybe even real
(improvised) adventures.  Therefore, I don't consider it a total waste of
space, and I'd even go so far as to say that I'd like to see a "Rumors" section
in future issues of JTAS (about a half-dozen or so per issue, in addition to
more "official" TNS-type entries--but no more than a single page between them!)

Overall, though, a very fair and honest review with which I largely agree.

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:14:00 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>
Subject: A Problem with First Survey

Let me start this letter off by saying that I am a fan of Imperium Games, and for
the most part I have been quite happy with the T4 products. But I have discovered
a problem with First Survey that, well, makes me a bit upset.

If someone else has discovered this problem and posted it, I apologize for
repeating the issue.

Open your copy of First Survey and look at the UWPs in the Referee's section.
Here's the first couple...

C474000-5
A8C3988-B
C356000-6
B541111-6
E864466-4
E879000-5
B354ACC-B

At first glance, no problem. But if you look close you can see that the government
and law level values (for the UWP impaired, the 6th and 7th values) are identical.
In fact, as near as I can tell, the government and law level values for every planet
in First Survey are identical.

Since government is 2D6-7+Population, and Law Level is 2D6-7+Government, it
would take a roll of 7 for every Law Level roll for this to happen. Which is effectively
impossible.

Thus, we either have a problem with the method the UWPs were made (I assume a
computer program) or a severe data-entry/editing problem.

In short, this makes First Survey of little practical use - this book of UWPs and
maps becomes a book of maps, for all intents and purposes.

I am not a businessman. I do not know what it would take for IG to fix this. And
like I said, I like IG...but this is a bit unacceptable.

Anyone else find this problem? Comments?


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@netins.net - http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/   |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 17:10:11 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 09:04 PM 3/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
  I think there is _plenty_ of room for
> >positive, strong female roles in Traveller, whether in art, NPCs, or as PCs
> >-- think of Athena, Ivanova, Sarah Conner, and maybe Ripley as archetypes.

...and from the world of gaming, as self-referential as it may seem, how
about BattleTech's Natasha Kerensky?
> 
> Honor Harrington comes to mind, as does Friday.

Put in my vote for Cordellia Naismith. HH and Friday may be able to mop
up the galaxy with the mother of Lord Miles Vorkosigan in a
fist/knife/gun/starship fight, but underestimating Cordellia is a _bad_
idea, as a certain Lord Vordarian found out :)

> 
> I'm curious as to how many of you have female players/GMs in your group.

Zero. Nada. None. Zilch.

> I've always gamed with women, and have found them to be great role-players.

One of the best around here runs Werewolf. We're always arguing about
how much fun we could have if we were to play one another's game...but
she's a pagan Earth Mother who loves the spiritual element of _Werewolf:
The Apocalypse_, and I'm more sf-oriented. One of these days....

> Traveller does seem to be lacking a strong female presence, but makes up for
> it by not suffering from the chainmail bikini syndrome.

Gotta agree with that...I thought that the two TNE novels were a big aid
in addressing this problem, since the protagonist was female, as were
most of the spacers aboard RCS _Hornet_.

> 
> It seems to me that IG could make some great strides in gaming by making
> some of the major NPCs female.. 

I call this a "lost opportunity."

> I noted that all the movers and shakers in
> M0 are men, so I've decided that the Big Noble in my version of Fornast
> Sector will be a Duchess.

In the Follies, one of the Emperor's major backers (and the "Big Noble")
is Duchess Mari Norstander, former SFN Captain and current First Space
Lord of the Imperium. The de-facto religious dictator of the world I
call "Stellis" is likewise female, as is one of the Ardin Empire's most
notorious privateers. There are lots and lots of less notorious female
NPCs serving as everything from scouts to Marines and nurses.

*I* say: AD ASTRA, ladies and gentlemen!

- --Rich Ostorero
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:28:10 -0800
From: "Wes Payne" <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: In-system campaign: economics?

Thus spake Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>:

>> From: cwebb@mail.ctainforms.com (Christopher E. Webb)
> 
>> What would freight and passenger charges be for in-system
transportation?  
>> It seems a little steep to charge KCr10, for example, for a flight from
a 
>> world to one of its satellites.  Has anyone worked on prices for
in-system 
>> transport?
> 
>    I always used the charter rules given in Book 2 (I assume they are in
>    T4 also) for nonstarships. The customer then pays the charter cost by
>    the day for the fraction of the cargo space he needs.

Those charter rules also appeared in the TNE rulebook and, so far as I
know, have remained consistent throughout all incarnations of Traveller
(except maybe T4 -- I don't own it and therefore can't say).  Of course,
you're probably jumping up and down right now, screaming "Yeah, but what
the heck ARE THEY??"  Here's what TNE said (page 224):

"Nonstarships charter for Cr1 per displacement ton per hour, usually with a
12-hour minimum.  Charter price for a starship is computed based on that
particular starship's revenue-generating capacity.  Starships are chartered
in two-week blocks; the charge for chartering a starship is Cr900 per ton
of cargo hold, plus Cr9000 per high passage berth and Cr900 per low passage
berth.  The owner of the starship being chartered pays all overhead
expenses and supplies a crew for the trip."

Since many in-system transfers are handled via jump drive (at least in TNE)
due to the time required to cross such distances in normal space (this may
have changed in T4 with the advent of reactionless thrusters which don't
require on-board reaction mass), which means that you will be tying the
ship up for the same amount of time that an interstellar trip would take. 
Since no distinction is made in price between interstellar jumps of
different length, it seems logical that in-system jumps wouldn't cost any
different, either.

Once again, reactionless thrusters change the dynamics, and thus the
economics, of this a little bit, so I'll have to defer to somebody who
actually owns (and uses) T4.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:35:25 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Re: Off-topic: credit cards over the Net

Zhodani Agents report Mike Sellers said:
>At 01:27 AM 3/4/97 -0500, Paul D. Owensby wrote:
>>I have a similiar problem, in that I have several credit cards, but do not
>feel 
>>comfortable sending the numbers over the 'net, especially to a site that
>makes
>>Netscape begin screeching about being unsecured. 
>

Imperium Games could possibly generate a PGP key which would allow people
to send in encrypted orders through e-mail...

>ObTrav:  how do you handle this sort of situation in your game?  Do you
>assume perfect encryption?  What if I'm Soc15 but my wealth is in another
>system several jumps away?  I played in one campaign that had banks
>(effectively ATMs) built as standard issue into most starships; you'd load
>them up from a master account while in port, and then have to live off of
>that (fairly secure) money until you got back.  This situation came up a
>lot historically, btw, which is why "letters of credit" from one bank to
>another (from London to Florence, say) were such a big deal.
>
>Anyone for "Count of Monte Christo", T4-style?  Probably some good
>adventures in that. :)

Well, that's a "drop of the hat" if I ever heard one :)

Patron 14753, Banker

You are approached by a well-groomed middle aged man dressed for business. 
He identifies himself as a banker with First Sylean, an important and well
known bank with branches throughout the Imperium.  He wishes you to
transport an Imperial Credit Transfer Pod to a branch of Solomani
Creditors Gmbh. on the next world in your itinerary.  He explains that
under normal circumstances such a credit transfer would be accompanied by
an agent of the bank, but that the local branch is having staffing
difficulties and they were unable to spare any of their personale.

The pod itself is a flat black computer with a prominently placed golden
Imperial sunburst and a set of standard data-ports.  The banker explains
that the pod uses a special set of encryption algorithms to electronically
transfer credits into and out of it's storage, allowing banks to move
funds securely from one planet to another.  Duplicate records of such
transfers are kept at the local offices of the Imperial Reserve Bank so
that in the event of the loss or destruction of a transfer pod the credits
can be reissued. 

1.  Everything is as explained, and the transfer occurs uneventfully.

2.  The man is in fact not an agent of the bank.  The Imperial Credit
Transfer Pod has been specially constructed to transfer a large number of
'phantom' credits into his own account at Solomani Creditors.  His forged
pod, however, is far from perfect and is quickly detected as false by
agents of the receiving bank.  The player characters are accused of
forgery!

3.  The man is an agent of the bank, as he represented.  However, a band
of pirates and/or ne'er-do-wells have learned of this un-escorted funds
transfer and attempt to steal it from the players en-route to their
destination.

4.  Half way through Jump, someone notices that the Transfer Pod is
missing.  Who saw it last?  Did you forget to bring it on board?  Did one
of the passengers make off with it?  Clearly, this is best used if the
players fail to hide the unit, instead leaving it in a lounge, desk, or in
the Ship's Locker.

5.  A short time after the players have taken the pod into custody they
are approached by a man in a rumpled greatcoat.  He offers the players
MCr2 for "the item".  He will answer no questions about himself or his
intentions, simply repeating, "2 MCr.  Are you interested?"  He will
continue to hang around the PCs until their ship leaves port.

6.  Upon arriving at their destination world the players discover that
the last branch of Solomani Creditors on this world closed it's doors five
days ago.  No local representatives remain to collect the pod, and there
are no local branches of First Sylean to return it to.

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://www.visi.com/~danger/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 21:36:57 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

Garry Ward wrote:
>
> Much of the discussions I have read lately imply that most players are in
> favor of the Imperium and Cleon.  Should we look for or develop some
> materials on those groups who would prefer the Sylean Federation remain a
> federation instead of merrily assuming you can inherit the right to rule?
> 
> Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy?

Have you *really* looked over the tactics his so-called "School of
Contact" uses to bring planetary systems into the Imperial fold? This
guy deliberately _causes_ wars in order to loot a world's wealth while
spouting in Article One of the Warrant of Restoration that "the purpose
of the Imperium shall be...to bring the rule of law to the spaces
between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is
contemplated,
except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial law."

In Cleon's eyes, "Even the negative aspects of war can be driven
beneficially" (see M0, page 17). Stage 4 of the Zhunastu School's
"Stages of Contact" goes on to state that "The only negative aspect of
war that has no benefits is population depletion."

In short, he does what's expedient to getting his way rather than what's
truly beneficial for everyone. Sorry, I'm sticking with the Zhos.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 19:30:45 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

On 03/04/97 at 10:35 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:

> > Count me among the Heretics then...Designers should be able to use whatever
> > dice they see fit, within reason. (Besides, I thought the TML creed was
> > "Background Uber Alles, mechanics be d*mned).
 
> > Loren Wiseman
> >     GDW Emeritus

> 	Hey, are any of the Horseman slots still available? Loren certainly
> deserves to be a major heretic! I think I've been named Famine, and
> wasn't Harold Death? or War? I dunno...

I drew Death, but I'll let Loren have the honor.  I'll just be Chaos...I've
got the name for it. ;->

Eris,
    the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 19:26:55 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

On 03/04/97 at 09:30 AM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:

> >> Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->

> Count me among the Heretics then...

"Welcome, welcome! Muhahahah"

>...Designers should be able to use whatever dice they see fit, > within
reason.  

Loren, I firmly agree!  Actually, they should be free to use dice "without
reason"...of course, we buyers are free not to buy into it too. ;->

> (Besides, I thought the TML creed was "Background Uber Alles,
> mechanics be d*mned).

Hee!  You're falling into a bad crowd then, because we've been known to
play fast and loose with the background too. ;->


Eris,
    the Heretic

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 20:02:57 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Federation forever, Imperium never!

On 03/04/97 at 06:11 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

> << Okay, there's gotta be a Traveller tie-in here someplace.  Maybe a
> fiercely independent world made up of the descendants of those who
> settled it while fleeing from "civilization" and an earlier war (like
> Oregon)?  Hmmm.  Could add some depth to a campaign. >>

> How about all the people who didn't agree with nasty old Cleon turning
> their  nice little Federation into an evil Empire?

So, run a campaign where Cleon fails in his unification campaign and the
3rd Imperium never forms.  The Sylean Federation could remain the strongest
state in the sector, but only be one of many political organizations
throughout...Known Space...I guess that's what we call it.

I've been running all my campaigns in a non-Imperium universe for several
years, and I think I'll keep playing there.  The main protagonists in the
sector are The Confederated Stars of Argent (CSA), The Zeristu Empire, and
the borderland systems along Quental Main.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 20:41:59 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Task System

On 03/04/97 at 12:52 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com> said:

> We all pretty much agree that a professional/expert is somewhere between
> a T4 skill of -3 and -4.  Well, double the skill level and you get a
> skill of -7, the same average as the attribute(stat).

> The difficulty rolls would then be paterned around the normal difficulty
> for an average professional.  Part of the playing I want to do is see how
> viable this is with the 1D/2D/3D/4D/5D/6D system.

> I think this idea has merrit, and as someone posted, by choosing 2 skills
> during char gen instead of doubling the number at the end, the character
> could be better detailed.

I *think* that was suggested as a joke, but I liked it then, still like it. 
<g> 

I'm experimenting with all kinds of things.  

I'm trying 6 skills / 4 year term rather than 4...but only rolled not
picked.  ;-> Increasing the number of skill chances helps offset the
characteristic advantage directly.

I'm also tinkering with expanded skill tables (11 choices rather than 6)
using 2d6 for the rolls. I think one of the reasons skills get too high is
that there are too few of them to pick from.

Another idea I'm playing with is setting up suites of skills for different
careers.  The PC's get the suite, and just the suite during their first
term or two.

And I'm still using my Aptitude idea. ;->


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 97 21:54:16 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Task System

On 03/04/97 at 03:12 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> You have skill-3 and Stat-7?  You think that you are pretty average, 
> huh?  

> Well, that would give you a target number of 13.  Easy rolls are  100%. 
> Average rolls are 100%, and you are way above average for 
> Difficult.

Not when Average is 3d! 
                        
Task       Dice      Target:  13   
==========================================
Auto        1d       auto
Easy        2d      100% - SF(3%)  = 97%
Average     3d       84% - SF(7%)  = 77%
Hard        4d       44% - SF(13%) = 31% 
Formidable  5d       15% - SF(20%) = Not Likely, but not 0%!
Staggering  6d        3% - SF(26%) = Forget it! 
Impossible  10d+                     Ha! Ha! Ha!

Actually, Impossible is just plain impossible, but I added it for kicks.  I
also changed Difficult to Hard, and Simple to Easy..just for kicks!  ;->

Seriously Ken, getting the skill levels up one way or another isn't a
problem.  It's the *low end* we have to worry about.  Take the PC with an
Attribute of 2 + Skill-1 = let's say 2 + (2*1) = 4...

              4
=========================              
Auto       67 - 0 = 67%
Easy       17 - 3 = 14%
Average    2 - 13 = Nope
Hard      0.1 - 20 = Ha!

Getting balance is a problem, as you can see, but to be frank I don't have
a problem with an Attribute 2 PC being a total yutz.  If he gets up to
skill 3 or 4 he can function adaquately in that area anyway.  With my
Aptitude idea the skill goes up on average by 2, and with a high Aptitude
it goes up by 3 each time!  


Eris 

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 23:34:15 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)

Neil Simpson writes:

>- --It does have to be said that the main reason that there are very few
>Native Americans in North America is the fact that the US did it best to
>wipe them out.

  No, or the US *would* have.  The primary cause of premature death in
Native Americans between 1500 and 1900 wasn't whiteman's bullets--by far
and away the primary cause was disease.  It is estimated by reputable
scholars that as much as a quarter to a third of the native population
died in the first centuries after first contact from diseases ranging
from smallpox to whooping cough (these diseases were unknown to Native
Americans thus they had no immunity).  In some cases whole tribes were
wiped out (we know this because of the diaries of priests and
Conquistdors who noted that certain tribes disappeared).  Native
Americans do get one revenge though if I recall my history correctly:
they gave syphilis to Europeans in return. 

   In addition to disease, Native Americans killed each other too.  Wars
had taken place between native peoples for thousands of years prior to
the white man's arrival.  The colonial powers (Spain, France, Britain,
Holland, etc.) recognised this fact and created alliances with various
tribes to use them to fight rival powers and the rival powers' tribal
allies.  One of the decisive factors in the French and Indian War (the
American name for the conflict, the European name is the Seven Years'
War) was the fact that the British were able to recruit the Iroquois
Confederation (a power tribal alliance located in what is now northern
New York state) as allies.  With the muscule of the Iroquois behind
them, the British had a much easier time of it in the North American
interior and were able concentrate on taking Canada instead of worrying
about the frontier of their own colonies (incidentially, the Americans
were able to split the Iroquois Confederation during the American
Revolution and keep it from being a major factor during that war).  In
later history, we see that the Americans were very successful at
exploiting the rivalries between the various tribes, thus keeping them
from forming any kind of grand alliances against them.  This didn't stop
some trying however.  Tecumseh, a Shawnee chief of the latter 1700s and
early 1800s, was able to bring together an alliance of tribes that
ranged from Wisconsin to southern Georgia.  Only an pre-emptive attack
by American forces at Tippecanoe prevented the embryonic alliance from
becoming a serious threat.

   So what the hell does this have to do with Traveller?

   Substitute the Third Imperium for the Americans.  By exploiting
rivalries between various rival pocket empires, by negotiating treaties
with locals to secure economic and political gains in various regions
(securing some areas as "autonomous districts" under Imperial control if
necessary), only to break those treaties later if circumstances
warranted, and by open warfare to bring worlds into line, the Third
Imperium was able to bring under its boot heel a large chunk of the
space that was formerly occupied by the previous versions of the
Imperium.  While not always successful (the Julian War don't exactly go
as planned), the Third Imperium had by in large a very good run as
empires go.

   Of course the Fourth Imperium was able to surpass the Third in a
number of respects, but that's another story for another day.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 23:50:31 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

Wes Payne writes:

>>    No, I fear that the Traveller universe is in general a
>> truly male dominated culture where the women are only mildly attractive
>> and stay out of the way.  No wonder Norris was AC only.
>
>Of course, this beats the other end of the spectrum, the lurid, pulpy
>"Overbusty Naked Amazon Space-Bimbos" atmosphere.

   True, but I see no reason why an attractive woman can't run a
starship (the Vilani woman on the cover of V&V wasn't bad) or even rule
the Imperium.  No one says that attractiveness has to be a prerequisite,
it would just be nice to see more often.

>Go into any comics shop and take a look at the current stuff -- if
>it's not some muscle-encrusted Rambo clone, it's a silicone-enhanced Barbie
>Doll with just enough lint on to cover the naughty bits.  That's fine if
>you've got a thirteen-year-old set of gonads and the hormones to go with
>them, but I, for one, would like to have rulebooks that open easily to each
>and every page, even after heavy usage.

   Well I'm 33 years old, and pictures of silicone enhanced Barbie Dolls
*still* appeal to me (but then my gonads still work...a joke OK?).  Of
course if there's nothing but fluff for a game behind the Barbie Dolls
I'm not interested in purchasing it either.

>I can deal with Plain Janes in my Traveller rulebooks.  I've got Playboy
>Newsstand Specials for the 'other stuff'...

   Pictures of Pamela Anderson or Jenny McCarthy look alikes in
skin-tight jump suits on the covers of games *sells*.  Sells better than
Foss art, sells better than majestic landscapes with Traveller Correct
starships floating by in the distance.  Sells better than even cool
looking aliens.  While *we* won't buy a game on the basis of T&A
content, a lot of 13-20 year olds *would*.  Something to think about
when you are trying to rebuild the fan base of Traveller.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 20:43:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 16:26:55 -0800
> From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
> 
> At 12:00 AM 3/4/97 +0200, Norman Violet wrote:
> >Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter (jets)  
> >pilots about the same.
> 
> Is that true?  I thought no humans currently could function at more than
> about 3g, even with a g-suit.  Anyone know for sure?

Yes, it's true -- but only for brief (< 1 minute) intervals.  Agile
fighters like the F-18 can routinely pull 9g turns, and pilots (in
g-suits, with lots of training) don't pass out.  No trained military pilot
would pass out in a 6g turn.  They'd hardly even notice 3g.

There was a wonderful case a few years back (1990ish, I believe?) in which
a congressman was taken up for a ride aboard a Navy fighter, probably an
F14.  He persuaded the pilot to do some maneuvers...and promptly passed
out when the g-loads passed about 5.  The panic-stricken pilot immediately
made an emergency landing, fully expecting to be cashiered under the wrath
of an angry congressman.  The congressman, who'd woken up on the way back
to the field, merely climbed shakily out of the plane, shook the pilots
hand, and said (with the press on hand) "It was clearly a case of a 6g
congressman in a 9g airplane."  Imagine the pilot's relief! :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 00:11:18 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

Famine (the heretic formerly known as David J. Golden) writes:

>  Hey, are any of the Horseman slots still available? Loren certainly
>deserves to be a major heretic! I think I've been named Famine, and
>wasn't Harold Death? or War? I dunno...

   I am War.  D20 user and now ace X-Wing pilot....

   I believe all the other slots are taken up, but that doesn't mean
that we don't need official Minions to help us spread our heresy to the
four corners of the Earth. <insert evil laughter here>

Volker A. Greimann writes:

>Loren Wiseman writes:
>
>- -> Count me among the Heretics then...Designers should be able to use whatever
>- -> dice they see fit, within reason. (Besides, I thought the TML creed was
>- -> "Background Uber Alles, mechanics be d*mned).
>
>It once was! :-(

   I'm afraid I tend to agree with Volker.  In fact I was about to
suggest a seperate TNE mailing list anyway for those of us who know the
ending of the movie "Third Imperium", and would like to discuss the
future of the Traveller universe from the year 1130 or so forward beyond
the premature end of the TNE storyline.  It would be a much more
productive forum without having to hear Yet Another Lecture on why Virus
sucks as a plot device, why the TNE game mechanics stink, why the
Reformation Coalition are Nazis, or why TNE isn't Traveller for the
umpteenth time.

   Is anyone else interested?  What would be involved in getting this
done?  I'm not suggesting that people abandon this list, just something
additional for us heretics.

Regards,

War (the heretic formerly known as Harold D. Hale)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 21:17:19 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Federation forever, Imperium never!

At 08:02 PM 3/4/97 -0600, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>I've been running all my campaigns in a non-Imperium universe for several
>years, and I think I'll keep playing there.  The main protagonists in the
>sector are The Confederated Stars of Argent (CSA), The Zeristu Empire, and
>the borderland systems along Quental Main.

Along these lines, what have you all done with the Black Curtain?  Is there
any canonical info on it, or is this homebrew only?  I've got a couple of
...interesting... worlds and I need a good, strange, out of the way place
to put them.

Thanks.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1024
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1025



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Small Fast Ship Design
Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0
Re: Task System
Re: Task System
re: stars in FS (long)
Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0
Re: Brown Dwarfs in Close Orbit
Digest archive broken?
Re: RC World Write up:RA
Re: Off-topic: credit cards over the Net
Cleon the Good
Re: Cleon a "good guy"?
Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)
Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Cleon the Good
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Planet building and ecology...
Re: "Victoria's" Origins
Re: Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Relativistic travel (was Re: Focus of the List)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 21:13:58 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: Small Fast Ship Design

<Role-playing Setup Begins>

What's Hot by Mosaic Tapestry for the Smuggler News Report
Byline: Rotaer

I recently had the pleasure of a test run in the new maxThrust joyRider 
from the Space Vehicle Division of Worcester Yards on Rotaer. Quite a run 
it was too. This beauty, first out of the yard, was piloted by Sir Harry 
Worcester. Sir Harry is the acknowledged bastard son of the Right Honorable 
Bernard Lord Worcester, Baron of Rotaer. Sir Harry recently took possession 
of the first Sybarite class yacht from the Starship Division of Worcester 
Yards. A fine vessel in itself and the subject of my next report.

This twelve meter long power house is capable of moving 29 cubic meters of 
cargo to orbit, or safe jump range, at 6Gs of acceleration. Empty she can 
make 7.36Gs with no problem at all. Built for a crew of two and weighing in 
at just over 27 tonnes this one is a slick speed demon. At a cost of 
2,190,185 ImpCr every successful operation should be able to afford one. 
For those of you running the kind of operation that needs this speed the 
room in the hold this monster takes up might pay for itself in just a few 
good runs.

On my run Sir Harry's excellent piloting netted us a 20% improvement in 
flight time while wringing an additional 10% out of the thruster plate 
systems. The expected 2 hour 34 minute 41.5 second flight to 100 planetary 
diameters off Rotaer was cut to 1 hour 59 minutes 04.9 seconds. A savings 
of 35 minutes 36.6 seconds.

I'll be along on Sir Harry's next run so my next report will include notes 
on the maxThrust joyRider in action.

<Role-playing Setup Ends>

maxThrust joyRider
Space Vehicle Division
Worcester Yards Rotaer

3.33Td                               46.62m^3 
                             2.190185MCr
1 pilot                              1 passenger
27m^3 cargo                          flight controls 
                      TL13

6 size rating 
                                                             6G thruster 
plates
 
                                                                          6 
power plant rating
 
                                                                          
  0.003kl fuel
0 armor 
                                                                   1 
structure

Notes - 24 hour flight endurance, flight computer and avionics, airframe 
design, 3000km radio, 2 crewstations, 4+ MW power surplus, 2 5MW fusion 
power plants

Designer notes - this uses the smallest thruster plate power plant 
technology available at TL13.

Notes on the news article - flight time calculations are based on DGPs 
_Starship Operators Handbook_.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 23:05:09 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0

>      I agree with most points of Kenneth's Milieu 0 review, positive and
> negative, except for a couple of quibbles.
> 
> First, he says it's "not really a gaming resource" because it doesn't have much
> of any rules info, but I don't really agree with that (well, the former part,
> the latter's a statement of fact) because of all the great adventure hooks.  I
> have no doubt that if and when I run a Milieu 0 campaign I will use lots of
> this stuff, much moreso than the SOM, which pretty much just sat and gathered
> dust after I read through it.  

Thanks for the comments, Trent.  I think that we have a fundamental 
opinion difference here, and like you said, our opinions of M0 are 
pretty close except for a few quibbles.

Unlike you, I continue to use the SOM.  It has some great rules for 
detailing starship operations in the back of the book, and just about 
every time the players decide to do space operations, I refer to this 
book and its rules.

As far as the majority of the SOM, you are right.  It is great 
technical starship information, but once you read it, you've pretty 
much got it down.  You only refer to the book for details from there 
on out.

M0 is exactly like this, except it doesn't have the rules to refer 
to.  Like you did with the SOM, I expect to read M0, enjoy the 
reading, and place the book with my other gameing stuff rarely to be 
opened again.

Oh, sure, I'll check for details here and there, but like the SOM, 
I'll use M0 as an encyclopedic reference after the initial reading.  
I may refer to it while creating a campaign or adventure, but I don't 
think the book will have a major impact on the play of the game the 
way the SOM did.

That's what I mean when I say I consider a good book--but for 
Traveller history, not as a gaming resource.

> Second, the rumors.  Yes, 7 pages was too much.  Yes, the space could have been
> used much more effectively.  However, I was entertained by a lot of these and
> if/when I run a Milieu 0 campaign I definitely plan to intersperse them
> liberally with "real" rumors-- as background, curiosities, red herrings, and,
> if the players actually decide to follow things up, maybe even real
> (improvised) adventures.  Therefore, I don't consider it a total waste of
> space, and I'd even go so far as to say that I'd like to see a "Rumors" section
> in future issues of JTAS (about a half-dozen or so per issue, in addition to
> more "official" TNS-type entries--but no more than a single page between them!)

I agree.  As I said in my review, I like rumors.  I just didn't think 
that the place for them was in the M0 book.  That 7 pages could have 
been used much more effectivly for something else.

In the review, I said that the proper place for rumors is adventure 
modules.  You suggest that the JTAS is a good place.  I couldn't 
agree more.  Adventures and magazines is where these things should 
be--not taking up valuable space in the campaign supplement.

 
> Overall, though, a very fair and honest review with which I largely agree.
> 
> Trent Smith

Thanks, Trent.  And I want to add that, although Trent and I are 
talking about what I consider some of the negatives of M0, I do 
recommend the book.  What you get by far out weighs what you don't 
get.

Kenneth.
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 23:25:24 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Task System

> And I'm still using my Aptitude idea. ;->

I've always liked your aptitude idea.  I even played with it before 
coming up with KBv1.1.

There are two reasons why I didn't use it in my task system fix.
One is that it added a lot of complexity to a very simple task 
system.  I wanted to keep that simplicity.  

The second reason is that the idea strays too far, in my book, away 
from the T4 rules as written.  I keep saying that I want minimal rule 
fixes, and that those fixes should be simple and as close to the 
original rule as possible.

If Marc was convinced and decided to incorporate aptitudes as even an 
optional rule for T4, I'd take a much closer look at it.

I don't want to be playing a unique system that only I, and maybe a 
few other people here on the TML, are using.  Like Glenn Grant's D66 
system.  I didn't even look at that closely because I know that it is 
not what I want.  It is just too far away from the T4 rules.

I may appreciate your hereticness, and even admire it, but I like my 
games to be close to the real thing.

Kenneth.
	--the believer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 23:25:23 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Task System

> Not when Average is 3d! 

Yeah, Eris, I tried this too.  But the double skill + stat method is 
not giving enough good numbers across the board in all difficulties.

I usually start with an average character when I test a task system.  
If I like those numbers, I test a very weak character and a very 
strong character.

If both of those give good numbers too (which is usually not the 
case--either the low end or the high end usually give me 
problems--Damn those 6 sided dice), I'll test random combinations of 
skill and attribute to see if they make sense.

I am on to a very good idea right now, but I'm having trouble with 
the low end.  The target numbers are high enough to give me good 
percentages at the high end, but the low end is way too easy.

It is a heck of a delimma, and it is going to be difficult to beat 
KBv1.1.

That system had some awkward math, but the number always turned out 
great.

We are trying to have our cake and eat it too with a task system, 
based on 6 sided die, that will give us good numbers and be truly 
simple to play.

What I want is the numbers involved in KBv1.1, the simplicity of just 
adding two numbers together to get the target number like in T4, and 
to use just whole die in the difficulty system.

THAT is a tall order.  I'm happy to say that I am very close to an 
answer, but I've got to lick this low end problem.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 02:33:00 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: re: stars in FS (long)

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes: 

   First, whoa there chief!  We're on the same side.  Don't shoot me up
too bad, OK?  You're getting MHO based on all the reading I've done in
Astronomy texts, the Internet, and various scholarly journals.  I made
it clear on this mailing list that I'm not the Voice of God on the
subject, though I know a lot more than the average Traveller player.
<yikes!>

>Correct, white dwarfs are usually classified with something other than
>OBAFGKM - mostly classified instead based on temperature and composition.

   Maybe you're the correct person to answer this question: I have
noticed that among the white dwarfs we can detect out to 50 ly, that the
*vast* majority are either DA type or DK type.  Is this because of some
freak occurance (just a really bad sample in the local area), or is it
because those kind of white dwarfs have the most common composition
(which would mean the white dwarfs we can see are actually a good
representation of the population at large)?

>>On the other hand, a brown dwarf could happily survive inside the envelope of
>>a red giant.
>
>Let me put it this way: the second-best brown dwarf candidate currently
>known, GD165B, is a companion (at about 50 AU) to a white dwarf.
>There's no particular reason why the brown dwarf would dissolve. The outer
>layers of the red giant's atmosphere are only a few thousand kelvin. 

   OK, let me restate my position.  I am talking here about a main
sequence star starting to exit the main sequence (running out of
hydrogen) and a brown dwarf in orbit 0.  As the main sequence star
begins to expand, wouldn't the temperatures and gravity still be
significant enough at orbit 0 to severely damage or destroy a brown
dwarf?  I understand that this would not be the case at orbit 4 or
beyond, and may not be the case at orbit 3 (depending on the mass of the
star).

>Mass transfer will actually go the other way - the brown dwarf will accrete 
>mass from the red giant (classic common-envelope binary), possibly (though 
>not necessarily) enough to push it over the line into starhood. It will also 
>spiral inward (it's gaining mass but not angular momentum so its orbit has 
>to contract.) If it started out too close, it will hit the core of the red 
>giant, which admittedly would be catastrophic. 

   I think this is what I was trying to get at. 

>But if it started out just right, by the time the red giant
>phase is over it could stop just short of the white dwarf (or moderately-
far-away...)

  I wasn't aware that common-envelope binaries could evolve in such a
fashion.  My understanding was that once two stars merged, their cores
eventually ending up in very close orbit of each other.  Then again we
are talking about a brown dwarf, not another star.

>Finally, the transition from red giant to white dwarf isn't violent in
>any sort of way that would chew the brown dwarf into pieces. (What do
>you think it's doing - flinging huge chunks of star off into space like
>a Star Trek special effect?)

   Violent is a relative term.  What wouldn't disturb a star-sized mass
all that much might be devastating to something 2 to 80 Jupiter masses,
particularly in a close orbit.  That was my assumption though certainly
I'd listen to someone such as yourself who had a different opinion and
has worked out the mathemathics of it all.

>I have no idea why you think the brown dwarf will keep spiralling in once
>the red giant phase is over. Whatever orbit it ends up in (probably a very
>circular one, but that's irrelevant) will be stable.

   I was working from the theory that the brown dwarf was gradually
losing angular momentum, and thus would eventually spiral in in a
similar fashion to a white dwarf binary pair).  Assuming that at some
point things were to stabilize, then you are right.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 01:19:42 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0

Stuart L. Dollar has brought something to my attention.  He noted 
that Ashe Marler did some of the illustrations in the M0 book along 
with Chris Foss.

Since I dogged the interior art, it is only fair that I bring 
attention to this.

I can't tell which pictures are Ashe's and which are Chris', but I 
detailed in my review which ones I thought were Traveller like.

I can see Chris' boxed "F" on some of the interior illos, but some 
have been cropped too close to see the authors' name.

Whatever the case, I only liked 3 of the 11 interior illos, and my 
review of that work stands, whoever did the art.

I just want good Traveller pictures in my game material.  I don't 
care who does it, as long as it is good.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 02:52:34 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs in Close Orbit

Lewis Roberts writes:

>>   One possibility I'll have to give you, courtesy of the latest in
>>astronomical theory (which means its far from proven): a brown dwarf
>>that started out in a farther orbit, survived all the violence, but is
>>now gradually spiraling in toward the white dwarf (this would also
>>explain the prescence of the moon "Shorts").  "Shorts" is not going to
>>be a pleasent place to live a few million years from now (give or take a
>>few million years) as the brown dwarf finally finishes it death dance
>>and goes up in a big ***bang*** when it finally makes contact with the
>>white dwarf.
>
>Based on the fact that we have actually seen a really big planet,
>fairly close to its star, in the case of 51 Peg. 

   But 51 Peg is a G main sequence star, not a white dwarf.  The planet
in question could have also theoretically just been "born" there right
where it is today.  If so, what we think we know about how solar systems
are formed could be wrong.

>Some theorists have modified the theory to suggest that the planet will 
>eventually stop spiraling in and come to a stable orbit.  There reason 
>they came up with this theory, is that it is kind of hard to believe that 
>in all the stars we have ever looked at, the first planet we discover is 
>just moments (astronomically speaking) away from plunging in to the star.  

   Having not been there to see how the 51 Peg system evolved, we may
never have the right answer.  If the theory about it forming in its
existing orbit is correct, then it won't be plunging into the star
anytime soon.

>Personally, I think the theorists like coming up with theories to fit
>incomplete data sets.  But then again, I am an observer.

   Anyone attempting to create charts to generate star systems for
Traveller is coming up with a theory to fit an incomplete data set.  You
know you could be proven wrong with the next Hubble observation, but
something has to be done.

   And besides, if the theorists didn't come up with all those neat
theories, what would they do at all those conventions (I mean besides
what they usually do)?  :-)  

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 00:17:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Digest archive broken?

I notice that the TML archives at

  ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/MailingListArchive/Traveller

stop after #999, back on 2/27.  This looks *very* suspecious to me as a
programmer...I suspect some filename generator is barfing on 4-digit
numbers.  Bob, when you get back, or anyone else with a line to MPGN, can
you look into this?  Thanks in advance...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:28:13 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: RC World Write up:RA

Lewis wrote:
> 
>Hi,
>
>Here is a write up on the world Ra, set in the Reformation Coalition circa
1202.
>It is by John Muir Macphearson, Paul Walker, Rich Ostorero and myself.

<... 
   Very good stuff
...>

This is very precious information, I'll certainly include Ra as an starting
point for adventures

Thanks a lot

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Sligos Marben.
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 04:22:35 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Off-topic: credit cards over the Net

Thanks to everyone for their comments on the pros and cons of using plastic on
the net... I think y'all've convinced me that I should go ahead and send in
my order
now... Plus with all the adventure hooks it has generated, I'm in need of some 
detailed background info! <g>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:40:44 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Cleon the Good

Craig (I think) has hit the nail right on the head: Cleon I is a bustard 
of the first order. If you read the Milieu Zero book fairly closely, 
there are at least two references to people being - er - 'silenced' for 
their opposition to Cleon's policies; and at least one other virtual 
exile. And these were among the high nobility! 

Add to that the very legitimate question mark over where Fusion Plus 
actually came from, and Cleon's started looking quite seedy...and that's 
just from the cleaned-up, official history! 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...

"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:15:58 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Cleon a "good guy"?

Zhodani agents report that Craig Berry wrote:

- -> beginning, Hitler was an able, dynamic, passionately committed leader,
- -> whose primary aim was Germany's economic and social recovery from the
- -> chaos of reparations payments and ineffectual government (look up "Weimar
- -> inflation", and find out why Hitler was welcomed with open arms).
- -> but in neither case could you tell which was coming from their origins.
Well ,not exactly! Hitler had announced what he planned to do before 
he took over in his book! People didn't believe him, but the signal 
were all flashing "bad guy"
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 12:29:41 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)

Harold D. Hale wrote:
>    Of course the Fourth Imperium was able to surpass the Third in a
> number of respects, but that's another story for another day.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Harold
- --Fourth Imperium?By that I assume you mean the result of the alliance
between the Sworan Worlds dominated Solomani Confederation and the
rebuilt Zhodani Consulate(boy, didn`t things go pear shaped for the
Zho`s when the Empress Wave hit?)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 12:29:47 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

David Smart wrote: 
> In short, he does what's expedient to getting his way rather than what's
> truly beneficial for everyone. Sorry, I'm sticking with the Zhos.
- ---Maybe he does have some ideas worth looking at after all.Conquest by
whatever means available and spouting whatever rhetoric you want is the
best way to expand an Empire. There is no such thing as something which
is truly beneficial for everyone.As the old sayimg goes,you can`t make
an omelette without breaking eggs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:25:13 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

Zhodani agents report that Andrew Boulton wrote:

- -> In-Reply-To: <A3CB8F62FB9@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>
- -> 
- -> << Why, we Germans are only out for Unity, Right and Freedom and that 
- -> these are the goals we should all strive for for the better of our 
- -> land... I can see nothing bloodthirsty in that...! >>
Well what i meant was what our hymn said about us!
- -> 
- -> "Don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with 
- -> it..."
Manuel? This smack on head!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 13:56:13 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: Cleon the Good

Michael Barry wrote:
> 
> Craig (I think) has hit the nail right on the head: Cleon I is a bustard
> of the first order. If you read the Milieu Zero book fairly closely,
> there are at least two references to people being - er - 'silenced' for
> their opposition to Cleon's policies; and at least one other virtual
> exile. And these were among the high nobility!
> 
Yes. I play my M0-Campaign (soon to read on Goerans Page) in a Milieu of
blooming secret services (and/or military intelligence), which is up to
treading out any glow of conspiracy by all means. They serve as
"guardians" of the expansion of the 3rd I. They try to consolidate the
reign of the Imperium in the newly conquered regions.

So beware, travellers! ;-)

CyA
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 00:10:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

In mail you write:

>>Or they raise a native plant that uses ethyl alcohol as an anti-freeze.
>>Picture something like 150 proof raspberries. They'd selll *real* well
>>on the luxury market.
>
> A native plant that is based on water on an ice only world? Remember that
> it is not a terran plant genetailored to this planet, it has to have
> evolved on it. This leads to the conclusion that the "oceans" also have
> anti-freeze 150 proof in them.

Nope! The planet would not likely have *formed* as an iceball. And it'd
have taken a long, long, time to cool down. Consider that Europa(?) is
likely mostly ocean under the ice layer.

So life had a long time to evolve with liquid water, and a long time to
adapt to the cold. Red dwarfs have *enormous* lifetimes. So the
"antifreeze" scenario is not at all far fetched.

> Think about that. You need to distill out the alcohol from the drinking
> water in order not to get drunk. Barfly heaven.

Alcohol is too good an energy source. *Something* would have evolved to
"eat" it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:11:56 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Planet building and ecology...

	Did anybody save a transcript from the IRC seminar on
planet-building and if so can they send me a copy?  And could someone send
me a transcript from the upcoming ecology seminar?  They'd be fun to read
once I get a second or two of spare time... come May or so :).

	Danke.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 02:58:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Victoria's" Origins

In mail you write:

> Greetings:
>
> A recent posting stated that Victoria (in the Spinward Marches) was based 
> on a book by John D. MacDonald (author of many mystery novels). According 
> to JTAS#2, it is based on "Prisoners of the Sky", by C. C. MacApp, Lancer 
> Books, 1969. Was this a pen name for MacDonald?

It might be. Or I may have remembered incorrectly. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 03:09:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Blunt Trauma Damage (check your assumptions and materials)

In mail you write:

> Do you really think that someone wearing combat armor is going to take ANY
> blunt trauma?  Nope.  Inertial compensators, padding, etc. will stop the
> blunt trauma.  Only flexible armors are susceptible to it, and probably
> being feasible about armor level 2.  And even most flexible armors (Class
> IIa and above) will stop the average handgun round (.45ACP, 9mm) with
> little or no blunt trauma to the victim.

I'd be rather surprised to find inertial compensators in anything short
of battle dress, and even there, they aren't worth the trouble.
Remember, they are limited to *6* g. That's *nothing* when you are
talking about impacts.

Hit someone in battledress with a 75 mm shell and even if it doesn't
pentrate, he's gonna be in *bad* shape from being bounced around inside
his impervious "can". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 00:15:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

In mail you write:

>    But even assuming that such a world exists, why go to all the
> trouble, when it is so much easier (and less expensive to harvest) to
> just throw some seeds into the soil on a more habitable world and wait
> for them to sprout?

Except they wouldn't. Try getting bananas to grow in the temperate
zone. Or various arctic plants to grow there.

> Even the "alcohol plants" would be much easier to
> simply genetically engineer for warmer temps and take to another world
> to grow.

That wouldn't necessarily be a "simple" job. Besides the plants being a
major fire hazard, the alcohol concentration would tend to be a lot
lower, as the higher temps (and higher atmospheric moisture levels)
will tend to cause absorption of water from the air. Taste and texture
will be a problem too. And at higher temperatures you may have to
radically re-engineer large portions of the plants metabolism to to
temperature effects on various enzymes.

It'd be cheaper to just grow them where the climate is suitable. Or, in
some places, to use special "icehouses" the way we use greenhouses. 

>    Making money at farming is difficult enough as it is, even in the
> 56-58th century.

Never said it'd be easy. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 00:42:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relativistic travel (was Re: Focus of the List)

In mail you write:

> How about relativistic travel in-system?  For example, if I wanted to have
> Our Heros travel from, say, Earth to Pluto without using some sort of
> microjumps, how fast (their perceived time) could they get there without
> noticeable relativistic effects?  I have the Lorenz transformation around
> here somewhere, but haven't dug it out.

Ain't gonna happen. As a rough rule of thumb, c = 1 g for 1 year. So so
to reach 10% of c, you have to accelerate at 1 g for 37 days, 2 g for
18 days, 3 g for 12 days, 4 g for 9 days, 5 g for 7 days, or 6 g for 6
days.

So for a boost to 10% of c (nowhere near relativistic):

g	t	d (AU)
- --	-------	------
1	34d 17h	300
2	17d  9h	150
3	11d 14h	100
4	 8d 16h	 75
5	 6d 23h	 60
6	 5d 19h	 50

Pluto is about 36 AU out....

So even at 6g, you'd have to flip over and start decelerating long
before reaching 10% of c. And since you were accelerating, that means
that the *average* time dilation is far less than the *peak* dilation
(I have the formulas somewhere, but since the peak value is .99498...
why bother?)

I rather expected these results before I even started, as Heinlein in
"Have Spacesuit, Will Travel" had the bad guys make a run out to Pluto
at 8 g, and only take about a week.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1025
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1026



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A Problem with First Survey
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
TNE Mailing List
Re: "Victoria's" Origins
Assorted
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
Shareware
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1024
Re: Cleon a "good guy"?
Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0
Re: Alien Book
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1024
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
re: stars in FS (long)
Re: Snub Pistols, Battle Dress and Sand Casters
Re: Sand Casters
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1023
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1023
Re: Credit Cards (longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 15:47:29 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: A Problem with First Survey

>From: Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>


>In fact, as near as I can tell, the government and law level values for
every >planet in First Survey are identical.
>Since government is 2D6-7+Population, and Law Level is 2D6-7+Government, it
>would take a roll of 7 for every Law Level roll for this to happen. Which
is >effectively impossible.

        Gawd.... that's a real problem. The easiest way to make the data
still usable is to consider that Law level is the most volatile of the UWP
stats and so assume that the Scouts just didn't recorded it. So, we will
have to reroll when using a specific area of space. Fortunately, the reroll
isn't complicated, but it destroys all possibility of *canon* Law levels...
too bad.
        I hope we are getting some explanation from IG. Well, TTYL, I have
to go reroll some Law Levels....

        Carlos

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 07:53:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 03/04/97 at 09:30 AM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:
> 
> > >> Ah! Another heretic leaves the church! ;->
> 
> > Count me among the Heretics then...
> 
> "Welcome, welcome! Muhahahah"
> 
> >...Designers should be able to use whatever dice they see fit, > within
> reason.  
> 
> Loren, I firmly agree!  Actually, they should be free to use dice "without
> reason"...of course, we buyers are free not to buy into it too. ;->
> 

If non six-sided users are heretics, what am I if I don't use *any* dice?

Pagan or Atheist?

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:36:59 -0500
From: "Mark Mueller" <mmuelle@nswc.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

Why use alcohol as an antifreeze??
	Founder (Terra:north Atlantic ocean) creates an antifreeze 
enzyme to prevent freezing.

There is no need to create far fetched explanations. Terra biology 
provides the clue to understanding xeno-biology!

Mark :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 10:07:13 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: TNE Mailing List

>I'm afraid I tend to agree with Volker.  In fact I was about to
>suggest a seperate TNE mailing list anyway for those of us who know the
>ending of the movie "Third Imperium", and would like to discuss the
>future of the Traveller universe from the year 1130 or so forward beyond
>the premature end of the TNE storyline.  

There is already at TNE mailing list, it gets very little traffic.  I
think the last message was several weeks ago.  I think most of the
discussions on TNE take place here on the TML.  You could bring a
discussion there. I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.  

The list is run by listproc@tower.clark.net
I think you can subscribe by sending a subscribe message to the
address. The mailing address of the list is  tne-rces@tower.clark.net

If that doesn't work let me know, and I'll figure out how I subscribed to it. :)


Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is yellow, smooth and deadly?
A:Shark infested pudding.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:29:07 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Victoria's" Origins

In a message dated 97-03-03 08:15:44 EST, you write:

> C. C. MacApp, Lancer 
>  Books, 1969. Was this a pen name for MacDonald?

I've never heard that one. I have had some hint the writer also uses the name
Colin M. Kapps.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:18:49 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Assorted

Craig Berry said:

>The Traveller background is basically (basically!) 20th-century society,
>with our cultural and economic underpinnings, and star travel grafted on
>top.  This is probably the only way it can work as a game; players need to
>be able to mostly rely on their real-world knowledge to understand the
>game world; otherwise, you'd need a year-long intro course just to know
>what was up in the game world, what the assumptions are.  A real 57th
>century human society would likely be as incomprehensible to us as
>downtown LA would be to Gilgamesh.

Our thoughts exactly.

- ------------------------------

Chris Griffen said:

>>David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>Hey, are any of the Horseman slots still available? Loren certainly
>>deserves to be a major heretic! I think I've been named Famine, and
>>wasn't Harold Death? or War? I dunno...
>
>As a devout TNE player, I think I qualify.
>
>Can I be Pestilence? I think it fits my personality quite well! <g>

Lessee, Famine, Plague, Pestilence...what's the fourth one?  Bad Table
Manners?

  Loren Wiseman
   GDW Emeritus 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:24:40 -0500
From: "Mark Mueller" <mmuelle@nswc.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

Sorry About the typo. Flounder the fish not founder.

mark 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:57:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, David Smart wrote:

> In Cleon's eyes, "Even the negative aspects of war can be driven
> beneficially" (see M0, page 17). Stage 4 of the Zhunastu School's
> "Stages of Contact" goes on to state that "The only negative aspect of
> war that has no benefits is population depletion."
> 
> In short, he does what's expedient to getting his way rather than what's
> truly beneficial for everyone. Sorry, I'm sticking with the Zhos.

You fool!  You've succumbed to the evil propoganda of the enemies of the 
Imperium!  Cleon has only the best interests of every member of the 
Imperium at heart.  To him, honor is everything.  Don't believe the 
dishonorable lies you hear about him.  The nobles who were supposedly 
"silenced" have, in fact, simply left Imperial space of their own accord, 
since they were not equipped to deal with the new, honor-based system of 
government.

Of course, the Imperium needs every able-bodied being it can get.  But if 
you're like the dishonorable nobles who fled for the outback, you're 
welcome to join them.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:04:26 -0500
From: "Mark Mueller" <mmuelle@nswc.navy.mil>
Subject: Shareware

How can I get shareware without internet access??

I am looking for survey data,ship design, character creation(or just 
skills list), or any tool a GM would find useful.

Does any one play GO? It is an ancient board game played by the samurai.
StarFleet(Trek) has 3-D chess but I think GO is more in-line with their 
policies. GO would also be the game of choice for Imperial Archdukes.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:09:50 -0700
From: stedee@auto-trol.com (Steven Deemer)
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

Andrew Boulton writes:

> In-Reply-To: <A3CB8F62FB9@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>
> 
> << Why, we Germans are only out for Unity, Right and Freedom and that 
> these are the goals we should all strive for for the better of our 
> land... I can see nothing bloodthirsty in that...! >>
> 
> "Don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with 
> it..."

Right! So that's two Colditz salads, a pickled Goering, and a prawn
Goebbels . . .

Steve Deemer
stedee@auto-trol.com

Wait! I'll do the funny walk!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:15:26 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1024

>>Loren Wiseman writes:
>>
>>- -> Count me among the Heretics then...Designers should be able to use
whatever
>>- -> dice they see fit, within reason. (Besides, I thought the TML creed was
>>- -> "Background Uber Alles, mechanics be d*mned).
>>
>>It once was! :-(
>
>   I'm afraid I tend to agree with Volker.  In fact I was about to
>suggest a seperate TNE mailing list anyway for those of us who know the
>ending of the movie "Third Imperium", and would like to discuss the
>future of the Traveller universe from the year 1130 or so forward beyond
>the premature end of the TNE storyline.  It would be a much more
>productive forum without having to hear Yet Another Lecture on why Virus
>sucks as a plot device, why the TNE game mechanics stink, why the
>Reformation Coalition are Nazis, or why TNE isn't Traveller for the
>umpteenth time.

Harold, I would not like to see another list-split. The last one was born
out of intolerance, and I think intolerance should be fought, not
surrendered to. TNE is part of Traveller just like any other part and should
be able to be freely discussed on this list. CT and MT are no longer the
"official" versions of Traveller, but they are discussed here. TNE should be
too. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if TNE is banned from this
list or if intolerant nastiness continues when it is discussed, then Classic
Traveller and MegaTraveller should be similarly banned; they aren't the
"official" version of Traveller anymore either. I would not like to see this
happen, so I hope people will develop more tolerance. I myself do not use
the TNE rules anymore, preferring the simplicity of T4, but I fully intend
when I get the chance to continue my RCES campaign.

Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 97 11:15:24 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Cleon a "good guy"?

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> wrote:
> I very, very, VERY strongly doubt that Cleon is unambiguously a "good
> guy."

Definitely - you don't get to be Emperor without breaking some
eggs - and heads (and hearts, and businesses, and lives).  I'm sure
that there will be no shortage of people in M0 who can come up with
good reasons why the Third Imperium and its Emperor are definitely
an Evil.

> Needless to say, we now see Hitler as a villain, and Lincoln as a hero;
> but in neither case could you tell which was coming from their origins.

It's worth noting that the official state song of Maryland contains a line
that refers to Lincoln as "the despot".

Not only will there be differences of opinion regarding Cleon, but those
differences may be deep and long-lasting.  Encourage your players to be
open-minded, and perhaps (as referee) show them both sides of the coin.

Even if Cleon is honestly trying to better everyone's lot at the same time
he grabs the throne for himself, not everyone working for him may hold to
the same ideals.  If Cleon is (and he may well be) honest in wanting to
improve conditions for all his subjects; these people will eventually be
rooted out; but a few highly-placed Bad Eggs can make life miserable for
millions of people - and an entire campaign can be centered around obtaining
proof of someone's misdeeds, and getting the appropriate people to pay
attention to it.

While we're talking about Cleon and Evil Emperors, don't forget that _other_
emperor Cleon, Cleon II.  Yes; I mean Cleon the Mad; hopefully more
information will turn up about him in M200 (Porifia shot Cleon II in 245,
which puts him firmly in M200).  For background reading, I suggest some
of the books I read for my Roman History class back in college.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 16:27:51 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0

On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:02:21 +0000, "Kenneth Bearden"=20
>IG has got to get another artist.

Yeah, where is Rob Caswell, Michael Vilardi and Blair Raynolds?

They really had the knack of giving that Traveller feel in their art.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:57:20 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

>From: John Watts <jwatts@catt.com>

>I would suggest a book along the lines of 
>Vargr/Minor races of the Early Third Imperium.  I dont see the Aslan 
>being someone to be dealt with ( I have yet to get hold of M:0 or FS, so 
>maybe I'm speaking from ignorance here ) at this time. 

        This is a great idea. IIRC, DGP covered Vilani, Solomani, Vargr, and
Aslan. The old Alien modules covered much more, but I've never seen them and
I am under the impression that apart from TMLers, nobody has access to them.
So any supplement covering just two of those four races is not going to
appeal the majority of old timers, and yet they are precisely the four most
important races in the Traveller universe. But, apart from specific examples
like the Darrian, minor races have never been covered in specific supplements. 
        Ellaborating on your proposal, I would suggest books with one major
race and one or two minor races. 
        Nevertheless, which minor races can be paired with which major
races? Forgetting about the specific details of M:0 (when Vilani are not
mentioned because everybody is Vilani, and many races are unheard of), there
are some minor races that could be treated in sourcebooks that also covered
a specific major race. For example:

        Answerin: they are in Vland sector, so pair them with the Vilani.
        Vegans: they are in the Solomani Rim, so put them with the Solomani.
        Hhkar: they are surronded by Vargr, so it's obvious...

        But we should focus on M:0 - relevant races at the moment, right?
And, since the focus of M:0 is the "central" area of the imperium, there are
specific races that are becoming of key importance. Marc has recently stated
that the Suerrat and the Geonee are being considered as major players for
game purposes... so maybe it would be good to make a Vargr/ Geonee & Suerrat
supplement, each race taking 1/2,1/4,1/4 of the book.
        (Personally, I think that Vilani/ Suerrat&Geonee would make more
sense, because the Vilani history is the key to the understanding of the
"current" situation in the area of FS, but, for game purposes, putting the
Vargr in the picture soon seems more important)

>The minor races 
>of this area are BEGGING to be dealt with.  At best on most of the races, 
>we have a page or so from an old JTAS ( except of course the Geonee with 
>their online sourcebook ( authors name and URL forgotten ) which is 
>great ).

        Thanks!. I'm glad you like it. I am the author, Scott is the
archivist, and the URL address is (now that you give me the opportunity to
post it again ;-) http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/geonee/index.html
        It is going to be updated soon.
        I continue to develop materials on the Geonee (the ones on the
online sourcebook are, of course, summaries), and I will be obviously very
much interested in seeing them appear on an Alien sourcebook (I am
volunteering, of course!). For the moment being, I am writing a short
article that I will submit to JTAS.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:10:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1024

>I am not a businessman. I do not know what it would take for IG to fix this.
> And like I said, I like IG...but this is a bit unacceptable.

>Anyone else find this problem? Comments?

To be quite frank, the book's a disgrace. The maps are completely unusable.
Whatever happened to the CT/MT/TNE map style, complete with names, symbols
and xboat/xweb routes? I have the old DGP software on my Mac at home and
can generate excellent-looking maps for myself. Why couldn't IG do it?

Has their operation been reduced to a shoestring?

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:18:59 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

>Why use alcohol as an antifreeze??
>        Founder (Terra:north Atlantic ocean) creates an antifreeze
>enzyme to prevent freezing.
>
>There is no need to create far fetched explanations. Terra biology
>provides the clue to understanding xeno-biology!
>
>Mark :-)

Terran organisms adapt from their warm and fuzzy beginnings be it in the
oceans or mud or whatever. If the planet was really cold to start with the
antifreeze HAD to be in the water from the start, otherwise no primitive
organisms could have started being waterbased. Remember that the
environment on a planet has to fit life BEFORE life starts to adapt to
extremes of environment.
As an anology just because we find some organims from Earth that can
survive and reproduce on Mars doesn't mean life can start on Mars.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 12:07:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

   Hi.

> From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>

> Have you *really* looked over the tactics [Cleon's] so-called "School of
> Contact" uses to bring planetary systems into the Imperial fold? This
> guy deliberately _causes_ wars in order to loot a world's wealth while

   [snip]

   Heh. Have you noticed yet how Cleon's political critics seem to die
   untimely and somewhat mysterious deaths? (Read M0 carefully.) He's a
   bad guy, definitely (but no-one can prove anything, of course). Not
   that the Zho's are any better whatsoever, IMHO.

   The empire in M0 seems every bit as evil as the empire in M1100, as
   far as I can tell, and that makes for as many (if not more) fun
   adventure sessions in M0 as in M1100. Remember, in M0, those Syleans
   are in search of lebensraum. "Long live the Thousand-Year Third
   Rei... er, Imperium! Heil Cleon!" 8^)

   Speaking of which... I haven't read M0 completely yet. Has anyone
   noticed any hints of genocidal (or xenocidal) activity yet? (I know
   about the Controlled in AA of course.) 

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:05:28 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: stars in FS (long)

Harold Hale writes

>   OK, let me restate my position.  I am talking here about a main
>sequence star starting to exit the main sequence (running out of
>hydrogen) and a brown dwarf in orbit 0.  As the main sequence star
>begins to expand, wouldn't the temperatures and gravity still be
>significant enough at orbit 0 to severely damage or destroy a brown
>dwarf?  I understand that this would not be the case at orbit 4 or
>beyond, and may not be the case at orbit 3 (depending on the mass of the
>star).

In solar system terms (very roughly - I don't have the exact orbits)

- -if the brown dwarf stars where Mercury is (orbit 0, I guess) it may well
spiral in so far it hits the core and gets eaten

- -if the brown dwarf starts where Venus is (orbit 1? 2?) it will spiral in,
but not hit the core before the red giant phase is over. After the red giant
has lost its atmosphere the brown dwarf will be happily orbiting around
orbit 0 or so. 

if the brown dwarf stars where Mars is it will spiral out as the red
giant loses mass and end up around Saturn or so.

So, the net result is that (for the right initial conditions) you can end 
up with a brown dwarf in a close orbit around a white dwarf star. It's
actually a pretty broad range of initial conditions, because the "spiralling"
is a very slow process.

The process of the red giant losing its atmosphere really is pretty gentle;
the red giant atmosphere is nearly vacuum, and the brown dwarf is 
*extremely* dense - if it doesn't hit the core, it'll survive.
("Gentle" means winds of thousands of km/s, but the density is so low that
it can't possibly affect something as solid as a brown dwarf.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:24:23 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Snub Pistols, Battle Dress and Sand Casters

>Our group is transitioning from CT to T4, and the snub pistol used to be
>the best shipboard weapon, and a great close range weapon with the
>option of HE, HEAP, and Tranq. rounds.  I cannot find anything equivalent
>in the T4 system.  Why was such a flexible weapon dropped? Any
>suggested replacements?

The so called snub pistol was developed during the Civil war for shipboard
use. Prior to the war there wasn't much need for such weaponry as shipboard
combat rarely took place.

Problem solved until Milieu 1100 is released ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:28:58 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sand Casters

>Also, the ship combat system has changed substantially.  We're
>confused with the sandcasters.  The T4 rules seem to imply that you are
>able to detect the number os lasers trained on your ship, and fire the
>sand casters accordingly.  How do you know how many lasers the
>enemy will fire?  Also, do you have to manuver around your own
>sandcasters to fire your lasers?  I assume so.  Must the sandcasters be
>controlled like missles after they're fired?  And finally, I assume that
>launched sand casters will not remain with the ship if it accellerates.  Is
>this true?

<handwaving mode on>
About one in every 100 shots actually hit but the lobe (speaking in
electric engineering terms) of the laser makes it fairly easy to detect
that someone is shooting at you and from where before any shots hit. My
ruling on sandcasters is that you cannot shoot back at the enemy you're
protecting yourself from but others are OK. As a matter of fact, you cannot
even track the enemy with your sensors while the sandcasters are working.
<handwaving mode off>


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 97 07:07:17 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1023

	
>Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 16:26:55 -0800
>From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
>Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
>
>At 12:00 AM 3/4/97 +0200, Norman Violet wrote:
>>Hello travellers !
>>
>>Is the maximum acceleration of starships still limited to 6g as in CT?
>>
>>Because of what? Lacking technology for anti-grav compensators to protect
 
>>the crew? Then why no rockets exist which can accelerate with 10g or
more?
>>
>>Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter
(jets)  
>>pilots about the same.
>
>Is that true?  I thought no humans currently could function at more than
>about 3g, even with a g-suit.  Anyone know for sure?
>
It's not (entirely) true.  The confusion here is in the distinction between
constant G-forces and instantaneous G-forces.  Yes, fighter pilots must
learn to deal with extremely high g-forces, often as high as 7 to 9 gees. 
However, forces this high are only ever encountered in extremely high-g
combat maneuvers, and never for more than a few seconds at a time.  The
G-forces endured by shuttle crews at liftoff are not usually higher than 2
to 3 gees, and this can be tolerated for longer periods.  Although liftoff
forces for the crews usually last for only a few minutes.




- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 97 07:07:17 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1023

	
>Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 16:26:55 -0800
>From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
>Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
>
>At 12:00 AM 3/4/97 +0200, Norman Violet wrote:
>>Hello travellers !
>>
>>Is the maximum acceleration of starships still limited to 6g as in CT?
>>
>>Because of what? Lacking technology for anti-grav compensators to protect
 
>>the crew? Then why no rockets exist which can accelerate with 10g or
more?
>>
>>Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter
(jets)  
>>pilots about the same.
>
>Is that true?  I thought no humans currently could function at more than
>about 3g, even with a g-suit.  Anyone know for sure?
>
It's not (entirely) true.  The confusion here is in the distinction between
constant G-forces and instantaneous G-forces.  Yes, fighter pilots must
learn to deal with extremely high g-forces, often as high as 7 to 9 gees. 
However, forces this high are only ever encountered in extremely high-g
combat maneuvers, and never for more than a few seconds at a time.  The
G-forces endured by shuttle crews at liftoff are not usually higher than 2
to 3 gees, and this can be tolerated for longer periods.  Although liftoff
forces for the crews usually last for only a few minutes.




- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 19:30:49 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Credit Cards (longish)

>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

>In my campaigns, a "Credit Card" (actually a debit card in modern
>terminology, but back in '78 I didn't even have an ATM card yet) was
>a credit-card-sized computer, with a display, a few buttons, and a socket
>(rather like a modern-day PCMCIA card, but with a display and buttons on
>top).  One of the buttons was actually a fingerprint scanner (in most
>models).
>
>The card itself contained a running balance (which could be displayed by
>touching a button) of the money it carried.  THe money was actually "in" the
>card - but it's the custom to "clear your card" periodically.  If the card
>is lost or stolen the money is gone - BUT you can return to the issuing bank
>and request an audit of the card - this will take a while, but eventually
>you'll get your money back.  The more recently you've "cleared your card",
>the quicker this audit process will be.

        In my campaigns, debit cards containing money also play a role, but
it is rather limited for several reasons: for instance, the number of people
that regularly travel to places they have never been before is minimal,
regardless of the fact that the PCs are almost always among them... so, why
would banks make life so easy to these travellers, specially when they are
rarely good customers? OTOH, it would be rather risky to carry large amounts
of money which are physically on one small debit card... On the third hand
<G>, low-tech worlds will not be prepared to handle debit cards properly,
and sometimes you wnat to travel to them...

        I assume that there are several types of banks, ranging from
one-world-only banks to Bank Hortalez et Cie (Imperium-wide). In order to
avoid carrying large amounts of money, I assume that large banks have
developed appropiate systems for good customers. Let me describe the one
used by Bank Hortalez et cie, and that my players have used from time to time.

        1) A loyal customer goes to his local office, where he has a (large)
amount of money, and says that he wants to securely transfer a quantity X.
Say X=100,000 Cr. He is travelling to some world, but is not sure if he is
using the money in this world, or in another, or if he would change his
mind... he wants the benefits of a debit card, but does not want to risk the
possibility of it being stolen.

        2) He decides a "distance" for the money, that is locally defined
depending on the typical travel times, etc. Roughly:

        Distance A.......... up to 3 parsecs
        Distance B.......... up to 8 parsecs
        Distance C.......... up to 40 parsecs

        3) The bank issues a check or set of checks for X=100,000 Cr. The
money at the local bank (the real 100,000 Cr.) are blocked for...

        Distance A.......... 8 weeks
        Distance B.......... 20 weeks
        Distance C.......... 100 weeks

        The checks (identified with the character's ID, fingerprints,
retinal scan, whatever) are stamped with the coresponding expiry date.

        4) The bank charges some cost, based on the amount X.

        Distance A........... 1%
        Distance B........... 2%
        Distance C........... 4%

        4) The customer travels around and can freely convert the checks
into money in any Hortalez et Cie bank during

        Distance A........... 6 weeks
        Distance B........... 16 weeks
        Distance C........... 80 weeks

 the specified time, and in the specified area. When he does so, the bank
where he does the change sends the info to the original one. The difference
between the blocking time and the disposal time makes it possible to avoid
risks on the part of the bank.

        5) The blocking time ends, the remaining checks become invalid and
the original bank sums up the received checks and substracts them from the
100,000 Cr. The remaining Cr. are de-blocked.

        And that's it. This system can have problems, but not more than the
usual ones... my players used it in some campaigns, and were never tempted
to do obscure maneuvers...

        Btw, Wildstar, are we two the only Matsumoto fans around here, or
there are more? ;-)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1026
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1027



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav
Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1024
Re: All things Nastiness
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0
Re: Alien Book
Re: Alien Book
Traveller Digest #1018 - 1020 Comments
RE: Iceberg Lettuce
Geonee Online Sourcebook
Re: Intolerance
Re: Aliens books
Re: Planet building and ecology...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 19:01:57 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav

No wonder there's so few female players in Traveller when most listers
aren't even able to spell these words correctly: Female, Women.

BTW Weird is spelled weird not wierd as most(?) yanks seem to think.



All this should be taken in with with a bit of a smile ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:55:00 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

>        Certainly, for seconds (fighters), to tens of seconds (shuttle). But
>not for extended periods of time. I have a reference at home somewhere which
>gives various levels of acceleration and how long you can tolerate it.

WOW! Could you plase post it to the list. Most assumptions made on
G-tolerance is related to fighter pilots and NASA guys ie short time
periods. The organs in the body due to different densities will start to
move around for instance which may be dangerous.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:53:03 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0

>On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:02:21 +0000, "Kenneth Bearden"
>>IG has got to get another artist.
>
>Yeah, where is Rob Caswell, Michael Vilardi and Blair Raynolds?
>
>They really had the knack of giving that Traveller feel in their art.

Blair is still out there, just coming back into some art after a long
hiatus. He's doing some work for a company called Blue Planet which is
publishing out of my home town here in Columbia, MO.

look at http://www.biohazardgames.com for a taste of what they're doing.

- -Joe

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 12:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1024

   Hi.

> From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)

> Harold, I would not like to see another list-split. The last one was born
> out of intolerance, and I think intolerance should be fought, not
> surrendered to. 

   I disagree; intolerance was not the mother of the xboat list. The TML
   never once discouraged or banned discussion of CT. Xboat merely
   created a channel where the signal-to-noise ratio of usable CT
   information could remain at pre-TNE levels; to do this, it was
   necessary to make a separate list.

   TNE is part of Traveller just like any other part and should
> be able to be freely discussed on this list. CT and MT are no longer the
> "official" versions of Traveller, but they are discussed here. TNE should be
> too. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if TNE is banned from this
> list or if intolerant nastiness continues when it is discussed, then Classic
> Traveller and MegaTraveller should be similarly banned; they aren't the
> "official" version of Traveller anymore either. 

   Hmm. Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't noticed any move to
   ban anything from this list except D&D and political weenie waving.
   And this attempt at censorship wasn't motivated by any anti-D&D
   intolerance or by any desire to stifle political discourse. It was
   merely an attempt to keep the Traveller signal coming in clear.

   If I missed something, and there have been attempts to ban TNE from
   the list (I confess --- I don't read all the messages), then I agree
   with you. Otherwise, I think you are attacking a straw man.

   If TNE players want to have their own list in addition to the TML,
   then I don't think they should be prevented from making it. I enjoyed
   having the xboat around in the TNE days, and I wouldn't deny anyone a
   similar luxury. Not that I'm lobbying for the creation of such a
   list. I probably would not subscribe to it if it were created, but I
   won't lobby against it either.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 97 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970302113324.006cb440@london.mis.slb.com>

<< The Spanish inquisition in Europe >>

Well, I didn't expect that...!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 97 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

In-Reply-To: <3318E514.6433@siscom.net>

<<    Still doesn't fly Keith.  Any planet orbiting around a M9d is going
to be so cold that it wouldn't have a type 4-9 atmosphere.  Having a
type 4-9 atmosphere is a prerequisite for a planet to be classified as
Agricultural according to Book 6, MT, and TNE. >>

Terraforming? Volcanism and/or meteor strikes warming it & thickening the 
atmosphere? Tidal forces? Ya just gotta be more creative...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:01:07 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Honest Review of Milieu 0

> Yeah, where is Rob Caswell, Michael Vilardi and Blair Raynolds?
> 
> They really had the knack of giving that Traveller feel in their art.

I agree 100%.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:01:05 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

>         This is a great idea. IIRC, DGP covered Vilani, Solomani, Vargr, and
> Aslan. The old Alien modules covered much more, but I've never seen them and
> I am under the impression that apart from TMLers, nobody has access to them.

First off, the DGP modules expanded on what was presented in the 
Alien modules.  By design, there isn't much over lap there.  Consider 
the GDW modules an introduction to the race, then consider the DGP 
modules as expanded information on those aliens.

As far as locating them, they are hard to find, but I do run across 
them.  About two months ago, I was at a game store that has some used 
games and ran across near mint copies of Aslan  and the Vargr alien 
modules.  I bought those for one of my players.

I can keep my eye out if you like.  If you let me know, I'll contact 
you if I find more copies of any of the GDW alien modules.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 13:48:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

   Hi.

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>

   > As far as locating them [the DGP modules], they are hard to find, but
   > I do run across  them.  About two months ago, I was at a game store
   > that has some used  games and ran across near mint copies of Aslan 
   > and the Vargr alien  modules.  I bought those for one of my players.

   I rarely see the DGP modules around anymore, but I do see the TNE
   modules quite frequently (the one on the Hivers). Are these any good?
   The CT Hiver module left me wanting more...

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 11:53:55 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Traveller Digest #1018 - 1020 Comments

Have just read my first copies of Traveller Digest...Neat Stuff

Have been a CT fan - player - referee since 1977.

Some thoughts on several of the flowing topics...

CANON --  I don't follow what the Pope says, so why should
I follow what the rule books say?  They're just guidelines.
Players and I have always had fun bending, molding, shaping
the rules to suit our vision of the universe.  Why should I
change now?  Our only limits are our imaginations.  Wasn't
there a famous Terran cadet that changed the "rules" to win
a Starfleet Exercise?

MOUSETRAPS -- that's what I think of the T4 refinements(?) to
weapons' damage.  Keep the rules simple.  Emphasize role
playing.  Realism is for Wargamers (and I'm one of those,
also).  IMO, the best combat system came out of Ashanti High
Lightning.  Roll to hit, roll to kill.  Quick and dirty,
then move on to role playing.

FEMALE PCs -- the best _role_player_ I met and interacted
with was female.  Role playing was more important to her
than combat.  Most young male gamers tend towards the
"Drunk Grunt" syndrome.  I've always discouraged this MO
and required finesse and quality role playing.  This
player's character eventually went on to form her own
mercenary company that built its own Billion Credit
Squadron....after five years of full weekend role
playing.  Okay, maybe I was a little to easy a referee.
I made a few major OOPS! in there somewhere.

As I recall, when I first started with CT, the group
I was with in North Dakota was 50/50 male to female.
Many gamers were husband and wife teams.  And because
of this, my wife even became involved in RPGing.

In response to Wes Payne and the 800T Merc Cruiser.

We solved the cutter problem because we felt the
800T MC was too small for its own good.  We upgraded
to a 1000T High Guard design using two 50T cutters,
adding two additional LSP modules for the cutters
and made them a side to side, slide-in//slide-out design.

Like Wes says,
you need to launch the cutters before a surface landing.
This is just good operating practice and smart to
provide the landing operation a HighGuard.  Proper 
mission planning is critical.  Launching the cutters
after just entering a system may be neccesary, if
not required.

Eric

Educate  --  Lead  --  Serve

The over forty gamer!

              ~~~~~
             (-0 0-)
- ---------oOOo--( )--oOOo---------  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:47:14 -0800
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: RE: Iceberg Lettuce

On Wednesday, March 05, 1997 9:18 AM, anders.backman@aniware.se wrote:
> >Why use alcohol as an antifreeze??
> >        Founder (Terra:north Atlantic ocean) creates an antifreeze
> >enzyme to prevent freezing.
> >
> >There is no need to create far fetched explanations. Terra biology
> >provides the clue to understanding xeno-biology!
> >
> >Mark :-)
> 
> Terran organisms adapt from their warm and fuzzy beginnings be it in the
> oceans or mud or whatever. If the planet was really cold to start with the
> antifreeze HAD to be in the water from the start, otherwise no primitive
> organisms could have started being waterbased. Remember that the
> environment on a planet has to fit life BEFORE life starts to adapt to
> extremes of environment.

I dissagree.  The basic building blocks of life are common, and it
appears that even in the most hostile of enviroments, the chemistry will
occur.  If any sort of life appears on the scene, the first thing that
will happen is that 1) it will change itself to suit it's surroundings
better 2) it will change it's surroundings to suit itself better.

Take the fact that we breathe oxygen, a chemical that will rapidly
combine with other elements to form oxides.  So where'd the oxygen come
from -- it started out as a byproduct of ancient life (blue-green
algae).  Oxygen is not a great chemical for life to have in it's
enviroment, so more modern critters fumbled around and found ways to use
it (aerobic organisms).  

I could see a scenario where our future '150-proof raspberries' had
ancestors that existed near thermal vents on the bottom of our planet's
ancient slushy oceans.  Converting rock to methane (liberating Carbon
from the rocks and Hydrogen from the water) would have provided an
excellent source of energy (food).

Also the released Oxygen would have provided more energy in the
enviroment (aerobic life).  Forms of life would have evolved to produce
a natural antifreeze (CH3CH2OH -- ethyl alcohol), while others (using
this revolutionary antifreeze) migrated up to seek the dim light from
the stellar primary.

Already you see the possibilities for a very diverse, complex ecosystem.
 Critters eat rock, produce hydrocarbons and O2.  Others eat
hydrocarbons, O2 and excrete (or produce) antifreeze.  Some critters
absorb the antifreeze others produce and store it.  Still others use
photosynthesis to live, but need the antifreeze to survive.

A scout survey might be very suprised to find an actual liquid ocean
under the ice _because_ of native life.

Most life would be small (bacteria, algae, plankton) and would be a
source of food for larger critters.  Larger producers (plants) would
take advantage of any niches they could.

> As an anology just because we find some organims from Earth that can
> survive and reproduce on Mars doesn't mean life can start on Mars.
> 

Mars is an odd case.  Life probably never had the chance to radically
alter the enviroment enough to survive.

> 
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 14:11:52 EST
From: galliand@juno.com
Subject: Geonee Online Sourcebook

Just to expand on what Carlos mentioned, I haven't had a chance to update
the Sourcebook yet until the last day or so.  So the more recent stuff
isn't up yet.  BUT, if I'm lucky, I should have the stuff up this
evening.

The new stuff going up is:

The Milieu Zero pocket empire
Geonee starship construction philosophy
QSDS 1.5 version of a Geonee free trader
The updated Geonee timeline

Carlos has been nice enough to let me put the stuff here and start
creating stuff for the page.  I'm the creator of the free trader.  Some
of my plans (which I hope I can work on in the near future) are:

- - Subsector maps for the two sectors where the Geonoee worlds are located
for each era.  First one I plan to concentrate on is Milieu Zero, of
course.
- - Deckplans for the free trader
- - Designs for a Geonee patrol cruiser and a Geonee science vessel/scout.
- - Deckplans for the above ships

I also plan to move the sourcebook to its own web address on my AOL
account.  I'll let you know when that will occur.

Of course, all these will be approved by Carlos first (before I make them
public).

The only problem right now is that the pages are kinda drab.  I need some
artwork, preferrably centered on the Geonee and/or Massilia.  Anyone has
any or is interested in doing something, please let Carlos or me know.

Any comments on the physical layout on the sourcebook should be sent to
me.   Comments on the actual content (except for the free trader) should
be sent to Carlos since he's done 96% of the work there (I'm only the guy
that puts it in HTML).

Thanks

Scott Galliand
Geonee Online Sourcebook archivist.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:23:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Intolerance

Responding to Allan Shock:

>> I would not like to see this
happen, so I hope people will develop more tolerance. I myself do not use
the TNE rules anymore, preferring the simplicity of T4, but I fully intend
when I get the chance to continue my RCES campaign.<<

I agree, Allan, so I hope you take this comment as a tolerant criticism of
the T4 rules, but I think T4 and "simplicity" are oxymorons. The intent was
simplicity, but the result was a task system of dubious results that has
resulted in more complex debates than I ever saw in a discussion of TNE
ship design rules!

I do see your point, though. I'd like to be able to discuss TNE stuff and
post designs here, but knowing many of the participants on this list, I
have the feeling it could result in some fireworks.

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:27:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens books

Responding to Carlos Alos-Ferrer:

>>        Answerin: they are in Vland sector, so pair them with the Vilani.
        Vegans: they are in the Solomani Rim, so put them with the Solomani.
        Hhkar: they are surronded by Vargr, so it's obvious...

Very nice groupings. Yes, this would ensure that some of us old-timers
would buy the books, provided the content is good and the artists make a
better to produce both quality and to better illustrate real "Traveller
art."

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 11:23:03 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planet building and ecology...

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At 08:11 AM 3/5/97 -0500, you wrote:

>	Did anybody save a transcript from the IRC seminar on
>planet-building and if so can they send me a copy?  And could someone send
>me a transcript from the upcoming ecology seminar?  They'd be fun to read
>once I get a second or two of spare time... come May or so :).


Here you go!
>	Danke.

Bitte

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Session Start: Thu Feb 27 17:29:37 1997
*** Now talking in #traveller
> YAY!
*** grayman (tim@ts5067.dialup.premier.net) has joined #traveller
<SuzD> Greetings, All!!!
*** SuzD sets mode: +o shadowcat 
<grayman> rehi
*** sinbadsam (~sinbad@PPP21.fortworth.dfw.net) has joined #traveller
*** Craig (~cberry@ppp100.cinenet.net) has joined #traveller
> Craig!
* shadowcat needs to run an errand for a few minutes
<Craig> Heya!
* shadowcat will be logging
* Doug_B needs a soda....
<BRuadh> Evenong all.
* Craig needs to eat dinner, so won't be saying much for a 
bit...
<sinbadsam> Lo BRuadh
> NOTE:  The part of Doug's fingers is being played tonight by 
the lovely and talented Kirsten M. Berry.  *wave*
<SuzD> Greetings, Craig
<shadowcat> !woeM
<Craig> Hi, Suz!
<grayman> Ahoy all 
* shadowcat waves all 4 paws at Kirsten
<sinbadsam> Giving something else for your fingers??<g>
<Craig> And hello, lovely and talented Kirsten. :)
> shadowcat:  !woeM yerself, says Kiri.
<SuzD> Greetings, Kirsten!
> Can someone give me a timecheck?  The clock has wandered 
away....
* shadowcat will bbiafm
<shadowcat> 19:35 CST
> Alright, then - seats, everybody....
> Welcome to Planetology 101.
* Doug_B rolls a medium-sized planet onto the stage.
*** BRuadh has quit IRC (Leaving)
> This <pointing> is a planet.  If your players are anything 
like the norm, they spend a great bloody amount of time on 
them.
*** BRuadh (BRuadh@max5-wc-ca-46.earthlink.net) has joined #traveller
<shadowcat> one question, are we using any particular version of 
the rules tonight? if at all?
> The trick for the referee is making each world memorable, 
while paying lip-service to scientific accuracy.
> I'm stealing from all the expanded world-generation systems; 
mostly World Builder's Handbook.
<shadowcat> ok
> I want everybody to take a second and take a look around at 
your local environment.
* shadowcat grabs his WBH then
<shadowcat> bbiafm first though
> How much do you weigh?  How warm are you?  What's the lighting 
like?
> These are the basic questions you should answer for every 
world in your game.
> The world we are going to work with is named Uungad Iam, in 
Gushemege Sector.
> The UWP is D76A455-8.
> It orbits an M3v star.
> Let's start with size.  Size 7 gives us a diameter of <flip, 
flip, find> 7000 miles.
> Referring to the web page that you should all have taken a 
look at, there are four types of core.
> Just to keep things simple, we'll say this is a molten core, 
with a planetary density of 1.06
> The first thing we need to figure is the world's mass.  The 
formula for that is
> M = K*(R/8)^3
> for a total mass of .8 (I rounded up).  Everyone with me so 
far?
> On to gravity....
* Craig nods.
> The formula there is  G = M*(64/R^2)
> ...giving our planet a final gravitational pull of 1.04G.
<Craig> Douglas, it might be worthwhile to talk about what units 
you're using...?
> *nod* Good point, Craig....  Since I'm trying to keep this 
simple, everything is considered to be Earth = 1.
> 1G acceleration is 32 feet per second^2.  The density figures 
are based on what Earth's density per cm^3 is.
> If anyone is *very* interested in the hard numbers, the 
sci.astro FAQ has most of them listed.
> 1.04G is close enough to Earth-normal that most people won't 
notice a difference.
> When dealing with different gravities, the most obvious effect 
is the weight that a character can carry.
> Remember when dealing with high gravities that a character's 
*own* weight will increase, and need to be counted against 
encumbrance.
> Any questions on mass or gravity?
> Hearing none, we continue....
> Anyone here *not* have a Traveller sourcebook that covers 
orbital distances and such?
* Craig used to, but someone swiped it...
*** Dave (dbullock@dt4h1n15.san.rr.com) has joined #TRAVELLER
* Craig grins.
> Craig: Don't *even* look north....
<Dave> I take it you guys got in OK without me? :)
<Dave> Doug I JUST got your email...
> Dave: No, we're all locked out.... ;-)
* Doug_B brought a crowbar.
<Dave> LOL
<Dave> well cool  -  I'm glad everything is OK at least
> Returning to our lovely little world, we'll next tackle the 
orbital period.
<shadowcat> Doug brought the crowbar, I brought the C4
> As you'll recall, this planet orbits an M3v, so we'll have to 
cuddle in nice and close for warmth....
> shadowcat: ...and you owe me a new crowbar....
<Dave> <duck>
<Dave> DUCK DUCK DUCK GOOSE
* shadowcat hands Doug a spare, this ones made from crystalIron
> We'll put the planet in Orbit 0, <QUACK!> 0.2 AU out from the 
star.
* Craig hands one to Doug at 0.1c.
> Yeah, he's got speed - but lousy control....
<shadowcat> even for an M3v isnt that a little close?
* Doug_B gives the typist a moment to stop giggling, and 
continues.
* Craig will concede that. :)
<Craig> 'too close' in what sense, shadowcat?
> The given orbital zones for M0 and M5 have a habitable zone at 
0 for the M0, and an outer zone for the M5.
*** Dave has quit IRC (Leaving)
<shadowcat> thats true, never mind
> Trust me, Shadowcat, when we get to temperature, you'll see 
why you wish you could get a little *closer*.
> The formula for orbital period is
> P = square root of (D^3/M)
> <flip, flip...> I come up with .22 standard year, or 81.6 
standard days.
> (Note:  In the previous formula, D is distance in AU, M is the 
mass of the central star.)
> (...but you already knew that, 'cause you had my web page up.)
<Craig> Relative to Sol, in this case...sol=1, that is.
> *nod* Big Brother speak-um truth.
> Don't worry, Craig - I'm planning a "Fuzzy Numbers" night just 
*filled* with the REAL stuff....
> Moving right along - rotation.  How long is the day?
* Craig grins, clears appointment calendar.
> The formula for rotation:  P = (A*4)+5+M/D
> P=rotational period in hours; A=2d6-2; M=mass of star; 
D=distance in AU
> Using a die result of 7, I come up with 30 hours.
> Any questions up to this point?
<Craig> Um, I get 34...(7*4) + 5 + 1...am I missing something?
<grayman> brb
*** BRuadh has quit IRC (No route to host)
> Sorry - 7 was the 2d6 result; (5*4) + 5 + 1 = 30.
* Craig bonks self on head. "Sorry, gotcha."
> ...and it's *still* wrong....  SIX is the number we shall use, 
and the number we shall use shall be six....
> Seven is *right* out.
> ANYway.
> Okay - let's take a look at our world so far.
*** BRuadh (BRuadh@max2-wc-ca-44.earthlink.net) has joined #traveller
> We have:  a decent-sized world, with fairly heavy gravity.  
It's possible that there are a lot of mineral resources to be 
recovered.
> On to the atmosphere....
> The atmosphere type is 6.  This is a standard N2O2 mixture, 
breathable by most normal sophonts.  Just to stay consistent 
with the gravity, we put atmospheric pressure at 1.04 
standard.
> Whenever possible, the atmospheric pressure should be *close 
to* the planet's gravity.  This *seems* to be the way of our 
solar system, and until a better explanation comes along....
> Now, the fun part:  Temperature.
> I didn't put all the temperature charts on the web page simply 
because: a) I'm lazy; and b) that would go WAY beyond "Fair 
Use."
> To determine the temperature, the first thing we need is the 
stellar luminosity.
> In this case, .354 standard.
> Or, 35% as luminous as Sol.
> Next, the orbit factor drawn from WBH - for Orbit 0, 836.345
> Next comes energy absorption:  For a world of this atmosphere 
type and hydrographic percentage, the number is .619
> And finally, the greenhouse effect.  For a Type 6 atmosphere, 
1.10
> Our final temperature is 201.6 Kelvin
> (in other words, -71 Celsius.  Got your snowboots?)
* Craig loves dry-ice snowboarding...
> In a quick digression, the subject of tainted atmospheres.
<sinbadsam> I get 71.56 C
* shadowcat mutters something about brass bra's and blizzards
*** shadowcat sets mode: +o Doug_B 
> (screech of brakes) Lemme run the numbers again.
<sinbadsam> Oopps I meant -71.56 C that is -96.8 F
> There ya go....
> I have always been of the opinion that the taint in "tainted 
atmosphere" can be *anything* that prevents people from going 
outside.
> ...without some form of protection.
<sinbadsam> Definatly at underground civilization
<shadowcat> airborne virii
<shadowcat> or a planet of sentient Polar Bears
> It can be anything from a lack of an ozone layer.... Tiny 
insect pests... (nods at Shadowcat)...
<sinbadsam> Maybe the taint is leaking antifreeze
* Craig nods to Douglas, rolls eyes at shadowcat.
> Cleon would just export Coca-Cola by the metric ton.
> My *point* is (rapping SC on the head), be creative with your 
tainted atmospheres.
* shadowcat watches as the large white bear looking over his 
shoulder flips craig the bird
* Craig grins, nods. Coca-Cola Classic...New Coke...and now, 
Coke Plus!
* sinbadsam slaps Craig around a bit with a large trout
* sinbadsam hands shadowcat pint of Whatney's Red Barrel
* Craig smirks, ducks.
* Doug_B fetches up his conveniently placed planet and drops it 
on Craig's head while he's busy ducking.
* shadowcat accepts and gets a tankard of Tully for his bear
* Craig agrees with Doug's point, apologizes for being 
disruptive, sit down.
* sinbadsam burp!
<Craig> No, no, no, Doug...you drop the *rocks* on the 
*planets*.
<SuzD> hehehe
> brb - the moderator is having a medical moment....
<sinbadsam> Does anyone else use a spreadsheet for this?
*** Doug_B is now known as Kiri
* Craig applauds that lovely morph!
> Had I know he was ignoring his meds for this, I would've 
dropped a couple of rocks on *him*....
> *bow*
<shadowcat> Mikey Bear thinks humans are even sillier than cats
> We now return you to your regularly scheduled game-master.  
Bye!
*** Kiri is now known as Doug_B
<Craig> Wow, that's a high standard to beat!
* Craig sits back down yet again.
> Okay - everyone comfy?
<shadowcat> purrrrrr...
> Now, we have a planet with a hydrographic rating of A.  I 
think I saw Kevin Costner there the other day....
<SuzD> don't blame you, Kiri
* Craig provides obligatory rim-shot.
> This will influence our final view of the planet immensely.
<shadowcat> its Planet NHL
> The image I'm getting is of endless sheets of pack-ice, with 
submersible Zambonis - no, wait - mining platforms working the 
sea bed.
<Craig> Or maybe not Coke, but Miller Ice.
<sinbadsam> Well the Imperium could sell Ice Maker to the locals
<Craig> A la Europa?
> Folks, I used to have to game with this man (pointing)
> Similar to Europa, but near the equator, you might get naked 
ocean.
<Craig> Yeah, like I had to nail you to the chair.
* Craig hmmmms...maybe...
<shadowcat> Doug_B, that or submersibles with scoops/dredges
> (guilty) Okay.  You figure, we also have a fairly dense core, 
which might bespeak lots of volcanic activity.
<sinbadsam> What is axial tilt effect?
<BRuadh> Tran-ki-ki anyone?
* shadowcat is thinking of something closer to IceRigger
> To keep things simple, I dropped axial tilt, but at 
temperatures *this* low, it would require a massive tilt to 
make any discernible difference.
<BRuadh> That's the one!
<sinbadsam> even a 90 degree only warms it to -53.56 C
> All right:  The last major effect we're going to consider 
tonight is lighting level.
> But first, a word about shop safety....
> You canNOT look at ANY sun unprotected without losing large 
portions of your retina.  Even a wimpy little M9v carries 
enough oomph to burn out your eyes.
<Craig> From within the habitable zone or nearby, of course.
<BRuadh> B^)
> Well, yes...if you really want to stare at Sol, I suggest 
Jupiter as a base of operations.
> The formula for determining the level of illumination is:
*** Hop (GmbH@dial197108.wbm.ca) has joined #Traveller
> I = L/R^2  where I is the level of illumination found on Earth 
on a nice sunny day
<SuzD> greetings, hop.
<Hop> yello!
> L is the star's Luminosity, and R is the distance in AU
> Plugging in the numbers  .354/.2^2 we get 8.85
> oops
> no, that's right..
> Dio not go outside without you welder's glasses on.
> (Can anybody tell I took over for Kirsten?)
<sinbadsam> does that mean that it is 8.85 brigher than here on 
Earth?
<BRuadh> B-(
> yes, the general level of illumination is almost nime times as 
powerful
<Craig> Oh, now c'mon...how can heat influx be much lower, but 
light influx much higher?  Something's slipped.
> Of course, sonce it's Hyd: A, Cloud cover is probably going to 
be a major factor in how much light reaches the surface
<sinbadsam> Wait one .354/.2 = 1.77 and 1.77^2= 3.13
<shadowcat> could be greenhouse affect?
<Craig> No, it's .354/(0.2^2)
> I think sinbadsam has it right, I'm to wigged to work my 
calculator right
<Craig> No, he used about an earth-normal greenhouse, yet got 
colder *and* brighter...hrm...
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*** |james14| (twolf@pm3-p34.tfs.net) has joined #traveller
*** Doug_B is now known as Kiri
*** shadowcat changes topic to "Planetology 101"
<Craig> You know what?  I'm beginning to believe the light calc 
and doubt the temp. calc.
> Okay, I've got the keyboard back, and he's taking his meds.... 
 Be with you again in a second.
*** Kiri is now known as Doug_B
* Craig hopes he brought enough for everyone.
*** |james14| is now known as |twolfjr|
> Okay, let's try this again.  
<sinbadsam> ok which is it (.354/.2)^2 or .354/(.2^2)
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*** ChuckM (~cmcknigh@dfw73151.gte.net) has left #traveller
<Hop> sinbad: the latter
<Craig> .354/(.2^2).  Luminosity, modified by inverse square 
law.
> One second while I pull up my original text file....
<Craig> And that's really straightforward, so I tend to believe 
it, rather than the more complicated temp. formula.
> Directly from the original file, I get I = Lstar / R^2
<sinbadsam> Ok thanks
<sinbadsam> The temp is low due most of the "light" is not being 
absorbed
> Therefore, .354/(.004) = 8.85
> Did I get one too many 0's in that parenthetical?
<Craig> I just have trouble believing even an airless mirror 
with 8x earth's solar influx could be that cold.
> Yeah....  .04, not .004
<shadowcat> I agree with Craig, something just doesnt sound 
right
<sinbadsam> If the Hyd % is dropped to about 1 or 2 the temp is 
around +17 C
<Craig> Is this WBH you guys are using?  Methinks the temp rules 
are deeply broken.
> Hrm. *shrug* I'm at a loss; this is the first time I've used 
the illumination formula.  To be honest, I'm as surprised by 
the result as the rest of you.
<sinbadsam> The figures check out via the spreadsheet 
> WBH's been pretty good to me thus far; I've reverse-engineered 
the solar system with it before....
<Craig> And you just can't argue with the illumination formula, 
it's so simple and self-evident...so the temp stuff takes the 
brunt of suspicion.
<sinbadsam> The temp calc may not prperly take into account for 
the heat sink effects of large bodies of water
<Craig> What's the formula used in there?  Leave out 
inclination.  Sorry, don't have WBH myself.  Skip it if it's 
too long to type, of course.
<sinbadsam> =(Greenhouse_Effect*Energy_Absobtion*Orbital_Factor*L
uminosity_Factor)-273.15
<Craig> My guess is an airless shiny rock with 8x earth's solar 
input would be at 350-400 K...and anything with water or 
atmosphere would be *hotter*.
* shadowcat is going to wander off for the night, can somebody 
e-mail him the log?
<Craig> And Energy_Absorption is?
* Doug_B is flipping pages again....
<sinbadsam> energy abs is .619
> Energy Absorption is based on the world's atmosphere and 
hydrographics, and whether or not the world is in a habitable 
zone.
*** shadowcat has quit IRC (My Reality Check Bounced!)
* Craig shrugs...I doubt we can hack this out tonight. Doug, 
want to take this up offline, see if we can puzzle it out?
> Sounds good.
> So, *other* than the illumination factor, you see how doing a 
little work gives you an interesting world.
<Craig> For now, we'll presume we're looking at Planet 
Snowblind. :)
> (Kiri was thinking that, too, Craig....explains why they're 
all living underwater)
> ...and it also gives me an adventure idea.
> ;-)
<sinbadsam> That might not be bad idea
* Craig grins, nods. Precisely.
> ...trying to finish before the Vicodin kicks in, folks...
<sinbadsam> Maybe I will play with a Icebreaker vehicle for this 
type of planet
* Craig shuts up...the label specifically warns against driving, 
operating heavy equipment, or building worlds while on 
Vicodin.
> Taking the time to figure out a few hard-science details will 
give you countless plot ideas, along with making the worlds 
visited seem more than just "another starport."
> There are a couple of good programs, specifically ACCRETE2, 
available on the net that do *most* of this for you.
> I can't remember the URL for Accrete2, but it is on a 
Traveller player's page, so look around.
<sinbadsam> is dos winblows or Mac?
> DOS
> (didn't need a Mac port, didn't think to look for one)
> Any questions, comments, donations, death threats?
<Craig> The source is available too, though I think it's 
FORTRAN, so it might not do you much good unless you've a 
compiler for that and are willing to do some porting.
<Craig> First off, good presentation!
<sinbadsam> Thank you Doug_B
> Thankyou thankyou, I owe it all to my Winchester Mystery 
House experience.
<Craig> Then, my favorite question...where does the oxygen come 
from on worlds like this, or desert worlds, and so forth?
* Craig grins. Hadn't thought of that connection. :)
<sinbadsam> also what is the wind velocity
> On this world, we could presume life starting around volcanic 
vents....
> It could get quite extensive.
> Re: velocity, with *no* mountains to get in the way....  
Probably *fairly* Earthlike, because of the low humidity and 
lack of open water to draw moisture from.
<Craig> Yeah, but chemosynthetic life doesn't make O2.  On 
Earth, anyway.  It's not part of the sulphur/CO2/H2O cycle.
> The Ancients put it there.  Next?
<sinbadsam> ok later then
*** sinbadsam has quit IRC (Leaving)
* Craig nods. "And slower rotation, and less atmospheric heat 
(if you buy the temp. model)"
> Seriously, all it takes is one mutation to start pumping out 
O2.
* Craig laughs! "That Grandfather...such a kidder!"
> Just think of the poor humans he dumped here....  "We'll be 
back, I promise!"
> Craig, a solution to the temperature problem:  Ask your 
daughter.
* Craig ROTFL. "Presenting: The ArfleSnark, a minor human race. 
The word means 'gasping popsicle' in their language.."
* Doug_B and Kiri grin maniacally.
*** Hop (GmbH@dial197108.wbm.ca) has left #traveller
> ROFLMAO *gasp* Oh, you bastard....!
<Craig> I asked her...she said "Make one.  Make an atmosphere.  
Import air from Earth."  (I kid you not.)
> Like I said - the Ancients.
> Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce Lenore Yaskodray 
Berry....
* Craig grins...she thought I was stupid for having to ask. :)
> (...*snort* gasping popsicle....)
> Well, c'mon, Craig - she reads Astronomy Magazine, after all. 
*giggle*
<Craig> My biggest problem with SF planets has always been 
N2/O2 worlds described as 'devoid of life', or clearly 
life-deficient...
* Craig grins, nods.
<Craig> I don't think a lot of people realize that you are 
*not* going to have free atmospheric O2 without a *bunch* of 
life on the world.
> You *do* realize what I'm getting her for her tenth birthday, 
of course.
* Craig raises an eyebrow. "No...?"
> Traveller.  LOTS of Traveller.
<Craig> Have Doug and I put everyone else to sleep?
* Craig sighs..."Yeah, should've guessed. :)"
<SuzD> I'm here
<SuzD> just multitasking
> Regarding O2, I have trouble enough explaining to 
creationists that O2 is a nasty thing that is not found in 
nature.
* Craig nods to SuzD.
<BRuadh> bbiafm
<Craig> Well, this hits the whole interface between what's 
'real world', and what's 'good for gaming'.  N2/O2 worlds in 
abundance is in the second category, I think.  N2/O2 desert 
worlds, and ice worlds, are *definitely* in that bucket.
> Well, I'm going to fall over now....and enjoy my drugs.  (No, 
Craig, he didn't bring enough to share; I'll make him stand 
in the corner.  Once he can *stand,* that is.)
> My players have always enjoyed it more when i stick to 
scientific reality.
> It makes the oddities stand out.
<grayman> Thanks Doug for the info
* Craig will accept that. Gives Doug big hug, Kirsten big hug, 
wishes both well.
> Good nigh...t.
> See y'all next week.
<Craig> Yeah, but most people want a Trekkier universe, mostly 
"Class M" planets.
> That's their problem.  (Kiri's opinion, too)
<Craig> Yeah, of course, but everybody has to find their 
comfort point.  I mean, even WBH or whatever bends 'reality' 
as we know it to make things better for gaming.
> Accrete2 pulls no punches.
<Craig> True. :)  Of course, the author of Accrete2 didn't know 
about 51 Pegasi and friends...
> I'm going to do one of the reserved sectors *entirely* with 
Accrete2....
> :-PbPbPbPb
> You can never get *completely* accurate.  It wouldn't be fun.
<Craig> That's entirely the point I'm making.  Everybody bends, 
you should just be aware of how and where and how much.  
Know you're doing it, and why.
<Craig> How do other folks here handle fleshing out UPPs?
> *nod* Good point...
> UPPs or UWPs, Craig?
<Craig> W.  W.  I was thinking 'Planetary.' :)
> *nod* Oldtimer.... ;-)
> Isn't it nice that we can be old fogeys together?
* Craig grins sheepishly. "Why, back in '80, *everything* was a 
UPP! People, Planets, Pistols, starshiPs...made it a dang 
sight easier to remember, I can tell ya that!"
<Craig> Yeah, weird, isn't it?
> Hope to see you here next week, Craig.... btw - what *is* 
next week's topic, anyway?
* Craig pokes Suz.
* Craig sighs, realizing his gambit to involve someone other 
than Doug and himself in the conversation failed utterly.
> Oh - Craig...I got a *credit* in M0!
* Doug_B is a Rumormonger....
<Craig> It was a cool presentation, dude.  Oh, coolness!  What 
rumor did you spawn?
> Have you looked at it?
* Craig contemplates following up on Doug's talk by doing 
planetary ecologies...hrm...
> Go for it!
> (or Ritual Magik and Traveller.... *grin*)
* Craig laughs...Universal Pentagram Profile, here we come!
* grayman listens in on the rummormongers :)
> It's awake! ;-)
<Craig> Ah, someone *is* listening.
<Craig> No, haven't seen M0 yet... :(
<grayman> I am everywhere 
<Craig> Oh, Douglas, keep forgetting to tell you...I have your 
Trav t-shirt.  It was overnighted from sweet pea, 6 months 
after I ordered it. :)
> I wrote the rumor about the Estimated ProFIt....  (Note that 
*this* was the intended spelling)  She disappeared in 
jumpspace - and people keep getting messages from her....
* Craig glances nervously around the room, looking for grayman.
> COOL!
*** Doug_B is now known as Kiri
* Kiri still thinks it looks better as the Estimated 
Prophet...Grateful Dead reference and all.
<Craig> Did you see my post today with the 1200-AU effect?
<Craig> Yeah, that'd definitely work. :)
> He's off talking to my mom, Craig....  And he's got a 
couple-three dozen messages sitting in his inbox once we're 
done here.
<Craig> I want to run a class-D backwater starport called 
Terrapin Station.
> *grin*
* Kiri is off to talk to her mom, who's having a week....
*** Kiri is now known as Doug_B
<Craig> Ah, gotcha.  I think you and he will like it...it's 
another handwaving attempt on explaining Jump, but ends up 
having a cool adventure-hook side effect.
* Craig waves bye to Kiri, hi to Doug.
> I'm not sure how much handwaving I can take after the great 
task debate
<grayman> I know and its still not over
* Craig gags...I never want to see the word 'task' again.
> AFAIC, it is.. i'm dleted those as fast as they come in.
<grayman> I got 300 emails in 48 hrs from the TML allmost all 
on task
> same here, and they never said anything new!
<Craig> That's why I get the digest...the rate on individual 
emails would just kill me.
> I imagine there were a few digests you just dumped
<grayman> Yea but you can deleat all the ones you dont want to 
read right off the back
<Craig> What's that lovely .sig line?  "It was a typical Net 
happening, a crowd of people pounding away at a greasy spot 
on the ground where there used to be a dead horse."
> exactly.
* Craig nods. "Yeah, it's the one downside of getting the 
digest...when there's something you want to save, it's hard."
> it came down to Ken Bearden(?) vs. the World
<grayman> I thought about writting something about trying to 
drag the dead horse away, by using a south Korean riot(sp) 
police squad but failing , because the people still wantedto 
beat it
<Craig> And the thing is, there didn't need to be this moral 
battle...Ken's system is cool, the T4 one is sorta workable, 
choose as ye will.  What's the conflict?
* Craig grins...more like in our case the riot cops give into 
temptation and join in on the horse-beating.
> I like the new stuff Marc is doing, more MTish, and I don't 
mind half-dice.. guess I'm a mutant
<Craig> Am I the only one who winces at Marc's grammar and mail 
formatting?  I mean, he's god and all, but...
* Craig glances around, hoping this isn't being logged. ;)
<SuzD> I'm logging it <G>
> Now I have the evidence I need!
* Craig d'ohs!
<grayman> I guess I am used to just making up a dificulty and 
number of Dice to go along with what sounds good
> *nod*
> so many people get tied yup with what the rules say.. I've 
never run a game strictly by the book
<grayman> Niether have I 
<Craig> Or rolling some dice then making the dramatically 
necessary thing happen. :)
<Craig> Are you sure that sentence wouldn't be just as accurate 
without the word 'strictly'?
<SuzD> book?  what book?
<SuzD> <G>
> But as to Marc's usage of English, I look at my posts when 
Kirsten isn't around to correct me, and I wince at what I'm 
capable of
* Craig grins.
* Craig sighs, nods. Or me before the morning coffee hits.
<SuzD> Email is one of the easiest places to mess up with 
grammar, etc.
<SuzD> often, people just whip off a post and never even read 
through it once
> That's why I'm hoarding pennies for Eudora Pro, since it at 
least has a spell-checker
<Craig> I know, I know, and I shouldn't care...just Marc is 
almost legendary, you expect words graven in marble somehow. 
:)
* Craig has far too often been guilty of *that* special sin.
<SuzD> so does Pegasus mail, and its freeware
> Where can I find it?
<SuzD> hang on
<Craig> So, Douglas asked earlier what next week's topic is...?
> Sex in Traveller?
<SuzD> give me one <G>
<SuzD> you and Kiri going to lead that one too, Doug?
<Craig> Nah...that went out with TNE, remember? :)
* SuzD asks with an arched eyebrow
> *grin*
> I don't know, Thursday is Kiri's queer bingo night
<SuzD> URL:  http://www.pegasus.usa.com/
<SuzD> I love pegasus.
> thanks
<Craig> I'd suggested Ecology 101 earlier, as a natural follow-on for tonight.
<SuzD> Ok, you leading it, Craig??
<Craig> Pegasus work on Win3.1, or just 95?
<SuzD> there is a version for 3.1
* Craig shrugs, grins. "I could be persuaded. :)"
<SuzD> great, you're hired <G>
<SuzD> I only pay with virtual hugs, tho <G>
> They're worth it, though
<Craig> "One potential prob...5:30 PST is right at the edge of how fast I can
get home from work, so I could be a few minutes late.  Would that be OK?
* SuzD blushes
<BRuadh> back
> re
<SuzD> Craig, we *never* start at 5pm pacific
* Craig smiles. "My favorite form of payment."
<SuzD> or 5:30
<SuzD> 6pm pacific can be arranged.
<Craig> I think aiming for 5:30 to keep it consistent is fine...it'd be no
later than 5:45 at the outside, and likely could make 5:30.  Just wanted to
warn of the chance.
> Just as long as we're done before Babylon 5 starts
<BRuadh> speaking of which.
* Craig laughs! "Gotta keep your priorities straight. :)"
<Craig> I'm missing The Simpsons for this.  *Two* of 'em.  I 
hope you're impressed, Doug.
* Craig grins.
> C'mon.. Bart vs. Me?  No contest!
<SuzD> Ok, I'll list it as 5:30 pacific, and if you're late, no 
biggie.
<Craig> Yeah, how can you tell 'em apart? :)
> My haircuts were much worse
* SuzD ducks into a corner
<Craig> Coolness.  This'll be fun.  Then after that somebody 
can do society building.  It makes a natural sequence.
<SuzD> yeah.
* Craig considers, nods. "Not much. But worse."
<SuzD> I'll have to work on that one.
> We touched on society building a few weeks back, but it 
wasn't that deep
<SuzD> I won't be here the last week of march
<Craig> As in you giving it?  Coolness!
<SuzD> out of town on business
<SuzD> um, no, I meant on finding someone to give it.
<Craig> What was the topic at the time?
<SuzD> I did Play by IRC <G>
<Craig> Ah.  Delegation.  You a manager? :)
<SuzD> yup
<SuzD> and Den Mother <G>
<Craig> I *knew* it!
* Craig grins...good combo.
> "planet Building"  tried to cover too much aream which is why 
i did tonight.. just focus on the physical aspects of a world
<SuzD> I kind of got side-stepped into it.
<SuzD> right.
<Craig> Have any sustained pbem or pbirc games come out of 
this?
<SuzD> can't cover too much
<SuzD> yes.
<SuzD> TLWH is on Wed nights
> You saw that TLWH got reviewed in Arcane?
<SuzD> Stu's Reaver's Deep game has been postponed a couple of 
weeks because of CORE commitments, but the players keep 
clamoring for more
<Craig> Oh, that started here?  I didn't know.  Guess I need to 
read more carefully.  Except for the task-system posts. :)
<SuzD> Afaik, Twolf's game on Mondays is still going
<BRuadh> yes it is.
<SuzD> I started my PBeM game only with people I dragged in off 
of here, or by recommendation from people here
<grayman> Yes it is and those crooks are toast when I get to 
them
<SuzD> I hear they got off with a rather large chunk o change, 
grayman <G>
<BRuadh> Stand in line, Greyman!
> still prefer ftf gaming
<grayman> Yea but we know were they are I think
<Craig> Otherwise, you have to order *so many* pizzas...
<SuzD> Maybe when the kids get older, I'll be able to do that 
again
* SuzD looks wistful
<SuzD> I like PBeM
<SuzD> Its convenient
*** james14 (twolf@pm3-p15.tfs.net) has joined #traveller
<Craig> Hey, Doug, you won the three bonus points! (Just got 
TML digest)
*** james14 (twolf@pm3-p15.tfs.net) has left #traveller
<SuzD> you don't have to worry about schedule conflicts
* Craig . o O (Guess James14 didn't like it here...)
<SuzD> and you can get really detailed with character 
development
> yeah, but it's the contact with other people that makes 
gaming for me
<grayman> That is true Suz 
<SuzD> I think he was looking for his dad
<SuzD> Doug, what do you think I live online for?
* Craig grins...reminds me of an old Dixieland song.
<SuzD> can't get out, so here I am <G>
<SuzD> its a sad existence, but its better than nothing :-)
<Craig> Suz, how old is/are your kid(s)?
> For me these days, it's the same thing.. I'm either 
contagious, drugged, or in pain..
<SuzD> one will be 4 in April, the other is 14mths
> I really, really love having cancer
<Craig> Poor kid...any signs of improvement?
* SuzD hugs Doub_B
<SuzD> er, Doug_B
<Craig> Wow.  My 6.5 year old is hanging over my shoulder as I 
type. :)
<SuzD> I do that every time
> Little people!  My favorite kind!
> hi norrie!!!!
<Craig> Nori says "Hi!!!!!!!"
<BRuadh> My 16 month old loves to hang on my chair as I type.
> Craig:  slowly.  I've decided to take disability and spend 
the year dead for tax purposes
<Craig> Kids can sense focused attention...and it draws 'em 
like a magnet.  Cats are the same way.
* SuzD waves hi to Norrie!
> Suz:  Nori is the future Ruler of the Planet.
<Craig> :: sighs, nods.  "Kid, I think you've chosen well.  
I've been back and forth on that question, and I really 
think that'll be the best route for you."
<Craig> Nori waves back!  Loudly!
<Craig> Sorry about that :: -- I'm losing track of what part of 
the Net I'm on. :)
> been MUCKing about, have we?
<SuzD> earth to grayman
* Craig grins, nods.
<grayman> Yea
<Craig> Suz, please...*Sylea* to grayman.
<SuzD> sorry <G>
<SuzD> Sylea to grayman
<SuzD> incoming comm message, sir
<Craig> *thwap*
<Craig> Sorry, 'Holy Grail' image just leapt to mind. :)
> What is the sound made by a realtivistic rock hitting the 
Latex Planet of Pleasure?
* Craig whips out NearCeeRock, his spreadsheet for planetary 
assaults...clickety clickety...
> Craig, that's my mail announcemnt..Message for you sir!
<Craig> The sound, according to my calculations, is...SprrRRROOO
NK!
<SuzD> Doug_B, the soundbyte from Python?
<SuzD> we used to have that as ours, too <G>
* Craig laughs! "Perfect!"
<BRuadh> Been fun tonight, but gotta go.
<SuzD> nite, Brian
<SuzD> gone afk
<Craig> The creepiest I've ever heard is HAL's "There is a 
message for you" from 2010.
<grayman> nite
<Craig> See ya!
> Everybody loves it.. Kirsten is currently using Dana scully 
saying "have you checked your email this morning, Mulder?"
> She was using the HAL message before that
*** BRuadh has quit IRC (Leaving)
* Craig chuckles. "Might've guessed. Did you see my Nancy 
sonnet that mentioned them?"
> Yes!  I forwarded it onto the Duchovnik Mailing List
* Craig is stunned. "And? I'm almost afraid to ask. I mean, how 
would they understand the context?"
> I keep imag8ining picking her up some dark morning, and 
pointing out the distinct lack of twelfth planets in the 
morning sky
* Craig snickers.
> I gave the basic backround on Nancy and the Zetas (opening 
for Bob Dylan)
<Craig> There's a college band by that name at Northwestern 
now, I'm told.
<Craig> I gotta run along pretty quick...few minutes or so.
> I love it!  
> Me too.. DS9, B5, sleep
<Craig> The three components of life. :)
> You should hang out here more often
<Craig> I will.  Any action at non-scheduled times?
> sometimes.. I usually wander by arounf 6 or 7 to see if 
anybody is home
> night all
> night Nori!
<Craig> G'night!  And to Kiri too!
Session Close: Thu Feb 27 19:59:53 1997


- --=====================_857618583==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

- --=====================_857618583==_--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1027
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1028



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Another review of M0
Re: Alien Book
Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Intolerance
Background Uber Alles...
M:0 FS data and FNORD!
Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav
TNE Hiver Book
Re: Snub Pistols, Battle Dress and Sand Casters
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 14:43:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Another review of M0

   Hi.

   I bought M0 last week and have read about a quarter of it, but I
   thought I'd go ahead with a premature review.

   IMHO, this is the best SINGLE campaign resource for Traveller since
   "The Traveller Adventure", and maybe the best ever. Every page is
   chock full of adventures, rumors, and seeds for the enigmas, gimmicks
   and patrons that every campaign needs to be fun. An amazing amount of
   creativity went into every paragraph of this sourcebook, my
   compliments to the authors!

   Every Traveller referee will find too much campaign grist for his
   mill possibly use all of it. Whether you want to portray Cleon as a
   great spiritual leader in a culteral revival, or as the worst serial
   killer on Sylea, you'll find information to support your campaign
   direction in M0. Whether you want your characters pushing the
   boundaries of known space or engaging in trade wars on Sylea, you'll
   find adventure layouts in M0. Whether you want your focus to be
   military adventures in hostile territory or romance and intrigue in a
   provincial palace, you'll find characters and situations to fit your
   bill in M0.

   Quite simply, the scope of this book blows me away. I compared it to
   "The Traveller Adventure"; Kenneth compared it to the SOM; both
   comparisons, though, are quite weak. Trav has never seen anything
   quite like this before.

   FLAWS: The previous reviewers mentioned that this book had flaws, but
   they only scratched the surface. M0 is filled with flaws, so many
   flaws that it will be almost useless as a source for canon. (It is
   too self-contradictory or just plain silly in some respects to make
   for good canon.) But as a source for IDEAS, for prods to a referee's
   writers-blocked mind, for adventure situations and characters, these
   flaws do not make M0 a bad buy. It's THAT good.

   The flaws come in three types:

   1) Typos. Too many to mention, no page in M0 is free of them. If this
   book was edited, the editor's copy never reached the printers.

   2) Inconsistency. As has been previously noted, the map and the text
   do not agree. Either the map must be altered to fit the text (my
   suggestion), or the text must be altered to fit the map.

   3) Silly ideas. In a book with so many imaginative ideas, some
   fraction of them are bound to be stupid or silly. Fortunately, these
   ideas are easy to ignore. The rumors section is particularly cursed
   with silly ideas; on the other hand, it is also particularly blessed
   with good ones.

   I won't go into detail about which ideas are the silly ones, because
   different people will have different opinions about which ones are
   silly or useless. Also, if you are running a comedic campaign, some
   of the stupidest ideas will be the real gems for you. (If the
   "Murphy's Rules" column is still in existence, it has some real
   fodder in this sourcebook. 8^)

   Conclusion: This is a great book. Each referee will have to make some
   decisions about which parts of it to ignore, but there'll still be
   plenty of good stuff left over when he's done.

   -Rob

   P.S. M0 is a book that screams to be annotated. If you don't mind
   marking up your books (I normally do, but I'll make an exception in
   this case), then M0 will be more usefull to you than it might be
   otherwise.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:48:07 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

>    I rarely see the DGP modules around anymore, but I do see the TNE
>    modules quite frequently (the one on the Hivers). Are these any good?
>    The CT Hiver module left me wanting more...

I was talking about find the GDW Alien Modules in my post.  I haven't 
seen the DGP modules since I bought mine way back when they came out.

As far as the quality of the Alien Modules, I've liked them all.

The GDW CT ones are great.  The DGP MT ones were are even better. 
 
The TNE one?  I've got it, but I haven't used it.  I bought what I 
could of TNE, but I just didn't like the game.  I haven't 
incorporated Hivers into my campaign yet, so I haven't paid much 
attention to it.  I bought it within the last year, and it has just 
been sitting there.  

I expect I'll look at it in more depth when I get around to exposing 
my players to the Hive.

If you have additional questions about it, e-mail me in private.  
I'll do what I can to look through the book for you and explain 
what's in it.

Kenneth.
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:38:57 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

A few weeks ago, Marc indicated to the list that he was not happy 
with the T4 task system.  This sparked off the task system debate.

Marc wanted to, like many of us, get rid of the 1/2 die as a 
difficulty dice code.  I couldn't agree more.  I've never liked the 
half die.  KBv1.1 used them because the T4 system uses them, and I 
wanted KBv1.1 to be as close to the original system as possible and 
still fix the two problems it has.

Marc's tinkering with the task system told me that the door was open 
to tinker with an improved version of KBv1.1.  Although the system 
give some good numbers and fixes the problem of high attributed 
characters dominating the game (when another character has much more 
skill than the high attributed character), KBv1.1 still has some 
problems.

These problems are small in my book, but as long as a revised edition 
of T4 is being written, we might as well fix these two little 
problems as well.

What are the problems with KBv1.1?  First, it uses the half die, 
albeit in only two categories--Easy and Difficult.  Everybody, it 
seems, would rather get rid of these pesky little dice.

The second problem with KBv1.1 is the awkward math.  Many people 
don't find it a problem to halve something, double something, and add 
those two values together, but as some have said, this is bothersome, 
especially in the middle of combat when a character's stats go down 
and the target number has to be refigured.

Although I'm willing to live with these two small problems in order 
to gain the benefits that KBv1.1 has instituted in my game, if there 
was a way to eliminate these problems and still have the numbers that 
KBv1.1 gives us, I'd be all for it.

That was my goal in designing KBv2.0.  I wanted a system that would:

	* Eliminate the half die--only use whole dice as difficulty codes.

	* Require only simple addition, like the T4 system, during combat.

	* Provide the adjusted numbers that KBv1.1 gives us (i.e. fix the 
	problem in the T4 system where the higher difficulties are too easy 
	to hit).

	* Provide, like KBv1.1 does, a benefit to having high level skill 
	(the old Pilot-1/Dex-10 vs Pilot-4/Dex-6 so-who-should-fly-the-ship 
	problem)

These are some lofty goals, and, I can tell you, that this has not 
been easy to achieve.  I've played around with several ideas in the 
last couple of weeks.  It's required a lot of thought, number 
crunching, and testing.

But, I think that I've licked the problem and accomplished all of 
these goals.

I introduce to you...

				KBv2.0

As with all of my rule fixes, I try to keep game mechanics as simple 
as possible while still providing the desired result.  KBv2.0 is no 
different.  

KBv2.0 consists of only two changes to the T4 rules.  One is a change 
in the difficutly codes, the other is a change in the way target 
numbers are calculated.  Simple, simple, simple.



1)  THE DIFFICULTY CODES:

Change the difficutly codes to match these.  Notice that I am only 
using whole dice--no more half die!

	Easy:  		2D/Auto
	Average:		3D
	Difficult:		4D
	Formidable:	5D
	Staggering:		6D
	Impossible:	7D



2)  TARGET NUMBER:

Calculating the number in combat is as simple, like T4, as adding two 
number together.  

There is a peliminary step that is necessary to increase the impact 
skills have on the target number.  This should be done only once and 
written on the character's page next to his skill--say in the area 
that you record the governing attributes for each skill the character 
has.  This will not need to be calculated again unless the 
character's skill increases.

	Preliminary step.

	Multiply all skill levels by 3.  Record this number next to the 
	skill on the character's sheet.  This new number will be referred to 
	as the character's experience score or number.

The experience score is used as a base number when determining the 
target number for a task.  Since skills are not effected by combat, 
this number will never change.  The only way it can change is if the 
character goes up in skill level.  If that happens, you simply 
repeat the preliminary step.



TARGET NUMBER CALCULATION:	

A character's target number is calculated by adding the experience 
score to the character's governing characteristic for that skill.

	Experience + Attribute = Target Number

It's as simple as that.  You've already calculated the character's 
experience score, so the target number is a simple matter of adding 
this number to the attribute--just like in T4.

As the character's attributes goes down due to wounds, it is a simple 
matter to recalculate the target number.



SUMMARY:

And that's all there is to KBv2.0--just two changes.  Change the dice 
codes for the difficulty categories and change the target number 
calculation to the sum of experience and attrubute.

I still have to figure out a few periphial issues, like how to 
calculate SS and SF based on this system, but the basics are solid.  
I've done extensive number crunching to ensure that the percentages 
come out close to the way they did under KBv1.1. 

I used KBv1.1 as the model instead of the T4 system becuase KBv1.1 
solved a basic problem in T4--the high percentages of success on the 
high end of the difficulty scale.

I'm not going to list a lot of numbers here.  I will be doing that 
later as I'm sure that I am going to have to defend KBv2.0 to some of 
you before it is accepted.

What I'm interested in here is to see if all of you are comfortable 
with the mechanics involved with KBv2.0.  It's simple addition, but 
you never know.  I can guarrantee that somebody here on the TML will 
have a problem with it even though it solves all problems.

For comparison purposes, though, here's a somewhat average character 
and the numbers he would generate under both systems.

	Plain Jane
	Stat-7
	Skill-2

				KBv1.1 (TN 8)			KBv2.0 (TN 13)
Easy					94.44%				100%
Average				72.22%				82.41%
Difficult				42.59%				44.37%
Formidable				25.93%				15.2%
Staggering				  5.4%				  3.59%
Impossible	 			  0.72%				  0.62%


You couldn't ask for better numbers than that--especially when you 
are dealing with 6 sided dice.  The KBv2.0 system is more generous at 
the low end and less forgiving at the high end, but I kinda like this 
shift.  It makes Average skills a little easier with the trade 
off being that Staggering tasks are a little harder.  I have no 
problem with that at all.

OK, hit me with your comments!

Kenneth.


	

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:01:51 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Intolerance

> I do see your point, though. I'd like to be able to discuss TNE stuff and
> post designs here, but knowing many of the participants on this list, I
> have the feeling it could result in some fireworks.

Fireworks are not always bad.  Whenever you have a group of 
opinionated people together talking, you get disagreements.

Heck, whenever you have a group of people together--strike the 
opinionated part--talking, you get disagreements.

That's what this list is all about, isn't it--to discuss differing 
views of Traveller in all its forms?  

When I get into a disagreement with someone here on the list, there 
is one of two outcomes for me.  We agree in the end or we disagree.

I've gone into some very strong debates with the intention of 
changing the other guy's mind--and I got my mind changed.

I always try to keep an open mind to what the other person is saying. 
 My opinion is not always the best one.  And that's why I'm here--to 
share ideas with fellow people who like Traveller.

I guess I'm saying all this because it seems, from your post, that 
you are afraid of offending somebody here on the list.

I'm not advocating belligerency, mind you, but you should state 
what you think.  

One thing that is true here on the TML--no matter how many people 
agree with you, there are always those who don't.

But, that's not a negative to the TML.  It is one of the good things.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:04:10 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Background Uber Alles...

>
>Count me among the Heretics then...Designers should be able to use whatever
>dice they see fit, within reason. (Besides, I thought the TML creed was
>"Background Uber Alles, mechanics be d*mned).
>
>
>Loren Wiseman
>    GDW Emeritus

Hmmm... When do we get back the REAL traveller Background: 1050-1115???



William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:30:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: M:0 FS data and FNORD!

Quoting from the TML somwhere....

"Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 15:47:29 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: A Problem with First Survey

>From: Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>


>In fact, as near as I can tell, the government and law level values for
every >planet in First Survey are identical.
>Since government is 2D6-7+Population, and Law Level is 2D6-7+Government, it
>would take a roll of 7 for every Law Level roll for this to happen. Which
is >effectively impossible.

        Gawd.... that's a real problem. The easiest way to make the data
still usable is to consider that Law level is the most volatile of the UWP
stats and so assume that the Scouts just didn't recorded it. So, we will
have to reroll when using a specific area of space. Fortunately, the reroll
isn't complicated, but it destroys all possibility of *canon* Law levels...
too bad.
        I hope we are getting some explanation from IG. Well, TTYL, I have
to go reroll some Law Levels....

        Carlos"

Hmmm....Looks like "You're not cleared for that information" applies to the 
First Survey as well.   We can clearly see the Illuminati like conspiracy 
going on behind the Iridium throne.  Are we sure "Evil Stevie" isn't pulling 
some strings?  FNORD!
);-{>  <---- The Devil you say!

(Just a joke kids, I KNOW there's nothing going on between IG and the other 
guy....or is there!  MUhahahahahahaaaa!)
:-)

Just some more insanity brought to you by X-TEK Industries.
Commander X at the office
(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:22:17 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

In the T4 rulebook, it mentioned that someone using Fencing would have an
advantage over someone using Blade Combat (or, presumably, Melee Combat 
as well).  In reality -- or, at least, in the Society of Creative
Anachronism (SCA) -- a fencer has a major *dis*advantage against other
fighters: *shields*!

In reality, someone using sword-and-shield (or weapon-and-shield) will
kick ass against an equally skilled opponent using just a sword; he will
usually score well against a moderately better opponent.  

I have yet to see *any* version of Traveller which takes this into
account.  Another disadvantage to the fencer is the relative strength of
the blades.  Consider the following example:

Sir Fop: "I parry your clumsy slash!"  

<SFX: broadsword shatters sabre>

Thonk the Uncivilized: "<grin>... <slash!><slash!><slash!>... Are you dead
yet?"

Sir Nebbish: "I say, that's not terribly sporting of you."

Thonk: "<shield-punch>... If you hurry, the dentist can salvage most of
those teeth I just knocked out."

The only real disadvantage for someone using a shield is the fact that he
can't see through it.  When he uses it to block an upper strike, he's
momentarily blind (to his opponent).  But, in a SFRPG, a star-faring
barbarian can have a shield crafted from a transparent metal or
high-strength ceramic to get around this.  To be even more clever, he
could have it coated to be one-way transparent (I can see you, but you
can't see me...).  

The main reason I even mention this is because of the "history" of
barbarian PCs and NPCs in my campaign; many of them worked as bodyguards
and professional champions for their patrons.  Which leads me to my last
point.  

In T4, mention is made of the nobles' /code duello/.  If a noble were in a
situation where he was incapable of defending himself, he would need the
services of a champion.  Thus, I postulate that the Imperial (nee Sylean)
Marines are the historical descendents of the nobles' /huscarles/, their
fighting men on retainer, and that they have traditionally been used as
champions for indisposed nobles.  This gives an elegant explanation for
the automatic skill Long Blade-1 that is in keeping with the background
presented in T4.  

Rebuttals?  Agreements?  Suggestions?

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 13:34:34 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

At 07:53 AM 3/5/97 -0600, Pete wrote:

>> >...Designers should be able to use whatever dice they see fit, > within
>> reason.  
>> 
>> Loren, I firmly agree!  Actually, they should be free to use dice "without
>> reason"...of course, we buyers are free not to buy into it too. ;->
>
>If non six-sided users are heretics, what am I if I don't use *any* dice?
>
>Pagan or Atheist?

Damned.

Doug, who has the best claim to being Pestilence.. a medical file at
Stanford Medical Center that fills two 3" binders!

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 13:34:26 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav

At 07:01 PM 3/5/97 +0100, you wrote:
>No wonder there's so few female players in Traveller when most listers
>aren't even able to spell these words correctly: Female, Women.

You are invited to join me some morning to partake in the Ritual Downing of
the Damn Pills, and then try to type coherently.  Oh, yeah, add in itching
from the shingles that never stops.  I think I'm doing pretty good just to
remember what Traveller *is* at this point.

>All this should be taken in with with a bit of a smile ;)

On this much vicodin, I don't do much else :)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:33:59 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: TNE Hiver Book

Robert Flammang wrote:
   I rarely see the DGP modules around anymore, but I do see the TNE
   modules quite frequently (the one on the Hivers). Are these any good?
   The CT Hiver module left me wanting more...

I liked the TNE Hiver&Ithklur book.  It presented an interesting view of the
hivers.   It looked at the Hivers from different viewpoints, rather than
just saying Hivers are one way or the other.  This works well with the
Hiver's Manipulation. I think it compliments the CT module really well.

The Ithklur are the part that most people hated.  The Ithklur write up
involves many 20th Century jokes.  It says the Ithklur play Calvin-Ball.
Personally I dislike the use of 20th century references. But one of my 
players loves it and she is quite happy playing an Ithklur.  

I think you can just ignore all the jokes and 20th century refernces and
be left with a very interesting alien race.  

Some of the things that were standard in the CT modules, aren't in the TNE
module. There are no examples of alien ships.  There isn't a sector of the
Hive Federation.(Actually there wasn't one in the CT module either)
Dave Nielson gave his reasons for these and I can see his points.  

I'd recomend buying the book if you want more on the hivers.  Just beware of the
jokes in the Ithklur.
Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 13:34:31 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Snub Pistols, Battle Dress and Sand Casters

At 10:13 AM 3/4/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Our group is transitioning from CT to T4, and the snub pistol used to be
>the best shipboard weapon, and a great close range weapon with the
>option of HE, HEAP, and Tranq. rounds.  I cannot find anything equivalent
>in the T4 system.  Why was such a flexible weapon dropped? Any
>suggested replacements?

I'm currently tweaking a couple of snub pistol designs using 3G3.. when
their done, I'll post them to my weapons pages:

 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/guns.html

>The conversion of Battle Dress (the powered version) from CT to
>T4 has resulted in a huge upgrade of the armor, from "to hit" minuses to
>virtual immunity to most small arms.  Any suggestions that might be more
>palitable to our referee?

Well, don't mess with the Marines comes to mind...  Seroiously, BD is
supposed to be the ultimate expression of military technology.  You just
aren't going to do much to a Marine in BattleDress unless you have some
access to militarygrade firepower yourself.

You could try for a Spectaular Sucess, and say you were aiming for a joint
or visor, but I'd recommend against that, since while your shooting at him,
he's shooting at you, and he doesn't need a SS to kill you.

There is always Arameth Gridlore's suggestion:  "Wait until he takes off his
helmet, and brain him with a rock!"


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 13:34:29 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

At 06:02 PM 3/5/97 GMT0, Andrew wrote:

>Terraforming? Volcanism and/or meteor strikes warming it & thickening the 
>atmosphere? Tidal forces? Ya just gotta be more creative...

My problem is that I'm a planet-head.  Some people tinker with starships, I
tinkers with ecosystems.

All of the above solutions are nice, but they still don't avoid the fact
that a world orbiting a very dim, cool star is supposedly producing enough
Agricultural products to make them the planet's primary export.

What I'm really bitching about is that Traveller has always assaigned
stellar types at random.  It becomes very hard to explain a world with a
population in the tens of billions orbiting a nightmare like a type-A star,
or the above Ag world orbiting something one step ahead of stellar extinction.

So now I have to go through FS and fix the stars, fix the planets that had
been a threat to the Sylean Federation, fix Vland, and use the maps that Joe
kindly posted (thanks Joe!) to figure out where the Imperium actually is in
Year 30 or so.  For this I paid ~20 bucks?

I am almost tempted to just chuck it all and start designing Fornast Sector
exclusively.  While FS does a lot of the work for me, it leaves so much to
be desired.  Personaly, I'm happy that M:200 has been delayed.  I'd really
like to see M:200 become the first release of 1998, with 1997 devoted
exclusively to M:0 support in JTAS, adventures, etc.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 15:23:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> 				KBv1.1 (TN 8)			KBv2.0 (TN 13)
> Easy					94.44%				100%
> Average				72.22%				82.41%
> Difficult				42.59%				44.37%
> Formidable				25.93%				15.2%
> Staggering				  5.4%				  3.59%
> Impossible	 			  0.72%				  0.62%

Pardon this damn Pegasus Mail program.  Somehow, the columns look 
great when I write a post, then I send it, and it comes out looking 
like this.

If you look hard, you can see that the first column is the KBv1.1 
numbers, and the second column is the KBv2.0 numbers.

Sorry,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:51:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 97 18:02 GMT0
> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
> 
> In-Reply-To: <3318E514.6433@siscom.net>
> 
> <<    Still doesn't fly Keith.  Any planet orbiting around a M9d is going
> to be so cold that it wouldn't have a type 4-9 atmosphere.  Having a
> type 4-9 atmosphere is a prerequisite for a planet to be classified as
> Agricultural according to Book 6, MT, and TNE. >>
> 
> Terraforming? Volcanism and/or meteor strikes warming it & thickening the 
> atmosphere? Tidal forces? Ya just gotta be more creative...

Of course, any one world, no matter how exotic or improbable its UPP and
stellar type, can be hand-waved into semi-credibility.  I think what
people (including myself) are objecting to is that (throughout the history
of Traveller) a good quarter or more of all worlds end up in this
category.  This rather strains the suspension of disbelief.

Most small cold worlds are going to be airless or at least have
unbreathable atmospheres (Titan is an example of the latter case).  Most
very hot worlds are going to be airless or at least have unbreathable
atmospheres (Mercury and Venus, respectively).  As I'll be discussing
tomorrow night, an N2/O2 atmosphere (codes 2-9) is *very* unstable;
without some mechanism to continuously replenish it, the O2 disappears in
a geological instant.  The only mechanism we currently know of (in theory
as well as in practice) that can maintain a breathable atmosphere is a
biosphere operating on the carbon/liquid-water/oxygen model; and that
model severely restricts the temperature range in which you'll get
breathable atmospheres.

The occasional 'special case' world adds spice to a setting; if too many
worlds require special pleading, it becomes a bit comical.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 13:24:42 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins

A few years ago, I called Steve Jackson Games' old Illuminati BBS and
happened upon a text file called "Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies
and Munchkins" which described all gamers as belonging to one of these
four groups, and detailed the various game behavior of each.

This wonderful document is available on the Web at: 

http://www-cui.darnstadt.gmd.de/~stenger/Personal/Rpg/Munchkin/

Included therein were behaviors in specific games -- GURPS, AD&D,
Villans and Vigilantes, Fantasy Hero, Champions, World of Darkness, etc
- -- and for specific genres -- fantasy, science fiction, superheroes,
etc. 

Ob Traveller: However, there are no entries for Traveller, a game that
is every bit as venerable as AD&D.... I think it's time to end this
sorry state of affairs and give Our Favorite Game the Real Men...
treatment.

To set the tone, here's my contribution:

General Opinion:

Real Men: Traveller is what Star Wars should have been, but isn't.
Real Roleplayers: Traveller is what reality should be, but isn't.
Loonies: Traveller is too serious for loonies.
Munchlins: Cool weapons and psionic powers, but the law level gets in
the way....


Favorite Character:

Real Men play Aslan mercenaries.
Real Roleplayers play Human Traders.
Loonies play Hiver Entertainers, Zhodani Rogues or chainsaw duellists.
Munchkins play psionic Ithklur Marines or Virus-infected Hiver Warbots;
whatever gets the most plusses.


Favorite Traveller Adventure/Product (CT)
Real Men: Mercenary (Book 4)
Real Roleplayers: Twilight's Peak
Loonies: "Chainsaw Combat In Traveller" (Space Gamer article)
Munchkins: SORAG (for the grossities)


Favorite Traveller character generation system:

Real Men like CT 
Real Roleplayers like MT
Loonies like TNE (for all the insane character mixes)
Munchkins like T4 for all the skill plusses

Criticisms, additions and other effluvia welcome!!

- --Rich
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1028
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1029



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

TNE Stuff on the Mailing List
Freelance Traveller Notes
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: TNE Hiver Book
Separate Lists
(no subject)
G-loads
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
THUDDD Economic example
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1026
TNE Alien Module 1
T4 Opinions
The module writing competition
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Milieu Zero
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Apology! (was:Re: Planet building and ecology...)
T4: Barbarian Career
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: (no subject)
Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:58:17 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: TNE Stuff on the Mailing List

Hi,
Christ Griffen wrote:
I do see your point, though. I'd like to be able to discuss TNE stuff and
post designs here, but knowing many of the participants on this list, I
have the feeling it could result in some fireworks.


No one should be intimidated about posting TNE stuff.  I have posted numerous
TNE style posts to the TML, and no one has given me grief.  These have included
Ships in Fire Fusion & Steel, world write ups for the Refomration Coalition,
NPC write ups, and rules.  

A few people get upset about Virus, and we probably don't need another argument
about the viability of Virus.  But useful Virus NPCs or Virus organizations
would be really neat.  

I think the reason there is so little traffic on the TNE-RCES mailing list
is that people discuss things here.  That is where I prefer them personally.
All my Traveller in one big package.  :)  

So Chris, PLEASE post your stuff hear, I'd love to read it and I am sure
others would too, and even if people don't use TNE rules, they can steal
ideas from your posts.

Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 16:57:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Freelance Traveller Notes

  The redesign of Freelance Traveller, first pass, is complete,
  and the site is on-line.  The second pass will be based on
  feedback received from those who visit the site.  There are
  some things missing:

        1.      Links to other pages - I'm working on this; my
                intent is to put up links after (a) they've been
                verified as working, and (b) they're verified as
                Traveller links.  If you know of links that
                aren't on the page, feel free to let me know
                about them - I'll check 'em out and add them as
                appropriate.

        2.      Reviews.  I've only got the original T4 review;
                I need more.  I'll accept nonpositive reviews
                that avoid the use of emotionally loaded terms
                like "waste of money".  Say, rather, that "there
                is a strong indication that the asking price
                could be put to better use" or something like
                that - you know, the same kind of obfuscation
                that politicians do on a daily basis.  The
                reason for the change in heart has to do with
                one word - "resource".  The dictionary doesn't
                say anything about it being a synonym for
                "cheering section"; I'd rather have honest but
                polite comments about shortcomings than lose
                credibility by only publishing rah-rah.

                Consider this an official call for reviews of
                all published Traveller products (T4) to date,
                including JTAS 25, but excluding T4 itself,
                which I already have a review for.

  I'm also not perfectly satisfied with the feedback and Q&A
  pages.  If someone knows where I can get a perl-4 or shell
  script that can take the form and sendmail it to me,
  appropriately massaged, I will be very appreciative.  I'm told
  that the Dragonfire server is a Pentium running Linux.  A set
  of man pages for sendmail would be acceptable; I'm a good
  enough programmer to be able to do something with that.

  SUBMISSIONS!  I NEED SUBMISSIONS!  I don't pull stuff off the
  list because it generally takes several digests to get the
  whole thing, and I have a bad habit of losing files
  (organization on my part, not technical deficiencies - I
  refuse to tolerate those).  Not to mention that list stuff
  needs a lot of editing, and that means you have to review it.
  I also don't know how you feel about having me lift the stuff.
  On the rare occasions that I _do_ lift the stuff, I also write
  and ask permission. But it's lots better if you tell me "here,
  you can have this for FT". Remember, FT doesn't have or want
  exclusivity or final publication control.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Seattle Rain Festival - Jan. 1 to Dec. 31

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 14:20:48 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> OK, hit me with your comments!

<KerWHANNnnnnggggg>

What I'd like to see is a set of charts, one for each difficulty,
of skill vs attribute showing % success.

A suggestion for SS/SF: When the number of 6's rolled exceeds the
number of 1's rolled by 2, Spectacular Failure.  When the number 
of 1's folled exceeds the number of 6's by the ordinal of the
task level (1 for easy, 2 for average, 3 for difficult, etc...)
Spectacular Success!  
(NOTE: this was just an idea... no statistical analysis went into 
it.  Intended as a starting point.)

Douglas McCorison

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 17:25:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: TNE Hiver Book

   Hi.

> From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>

   [snip]

> I'd recomend buying the book if you want more on the hivers.  Just beware of the
> jokes in the Ithklur.
> Lewis Roberts

   Thanks for the very prompt review!

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:59:13 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Separate Lists

>   Is anyone else interested?  What would be involved in getting this
>done?  I'm not suggesting that people abandon this list, just something
>additional for us heretics.
>
>Regards,
>
>War (the heretic formerly known as Harold D. Hale)

<Agitator>
YES!!! PLEASE!!! And, while we're at it, I want a CT/MT list...
</Agitator>



William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 23:23:06 -0800
From: Nicholas Wright <xgr52@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: (no subject)

Re: Kenneth vs The Blunt Trauma Rule

IMHO My reading is of the rule does not suggest it is broken in the way
you suggest.

I read thus
1. No weapon does more than 3D damage to a Human. (its a *big game* gun
after all)

2. Thus 6D reduces to 3D for a human target.

3. The unarmoured target takes the full 3D

4a. For a diplo armoured target 3D converts to 3 points damage (1 for
each die stopped but; blunt trauma)

4b. For a rigid armoured target - No damage

Here is where I lose my way a bit: What is the point of rigid armour
with an AV greater than 3 (excepting shotguns etc) if AV3 instantly
deflects all projectiles without harm to the wearer.

OK your shot!



Nick Wright

By the way if Albert is right and Mass increases as speed tends to c
shouldn=92t it be called =93The Speed of Heavy=94?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:47:25 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: G-loads

>>Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter (jets)
>>pilots about the same.
>
>Is that true?  I thought no humans currently could function at more than
>about 3g, even with a g-suit.  Anyone know for sure?
>
Last I heard, the shuttle barely hits 6 G, and for less than 1 minute...

I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE AND FLIGHT SCHOOL that the AVERAGE private pilot
will frequently do sustained 2 and 3 G turns, and that 4 G turns are no
problem (tight circles, on the 20 second range, in a Cessna, generate over
3 G) for short periods.

Jet Fighters can generate upwards of 12 G transient loads, but most wings
are designed for 10-11 G loading. Most military pilots are required to
function at 6 G's for short periods (transient loads). G-suits are standard
issue for jet-jockeys, but aren't needed for 6-G transient loads (T-33
orientation rides for CAP cadets pull 5-6 G maneuvers, and do NOT issue
G-suits).

Apollo-Saturn V missions generated 11 G for 5 minutes, without G-Suits.
Nobody could move, but nobody AFAIK passed out.


William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 17:21:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

   Hi.

> Subj:	Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

> In T4, mention is made of the nobles' /code duello/.  If a noble were in a
> situation where he was incapable of defending himself, he would need the
> services of a champion.  Thus, I postulate that the Imperial (nee Sylean)
> Marines are the historical descendents of the nobles' /huscarles/, their
> fighting men on retainer, and that they have traditionally been used as
> champions for indisposed nobles.  This gives an elegant explanation for
> the automatic skill Long Blade-1 that is in keeping with the background
> presented in T4.  

   This is a very clever and refined alternative to my somewhat
   unimaginative and brutal explanation for the Marine cutlass, which I
   posted here last year. My explanation was that the Marine cutlass was
   used for the same purposes for which the Japanese saber was used in
   WW2: the slaughter of prisoners and the discipline of troops
   (particularly mutinous navy crewmen in the Imperium, not Japan). I
   suppose these two alternatives can be used against each other or
   together, reflecting the referee's view of the Good/Evil Imperium.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:25:54 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: THUDDD Economic example

QuipTech Standard 200 Ton Free Trader (QSDS)

 Tons: 200 Std (SL)     Volume: 2800 m^3    Cost: 60.4 MCr (45.3MCr)
 Crew: 7         High/Mid Pass: 0/10         Low: 0
Cargo: 63 Std         Controls: Civillian     TL: 12

 8 Size                              2 Jump Drive (20 Std/Pc Fuel)
1x CivLaser (0) 1/1-0-0-0            2 Maneuver (T Plates, 112 Mw)
                                     2 Power Plant (1x 200Mw)
                                  42.1 Fuel (Scoop 80, Refine 10)
                                    A1 P3 J0 Sensors 
                                    10 Armor, 9 Structure

Crew Detail: 1x Engineer, 1x Electronics, 2x Maneuver, 1x Gunners, 
             1x Command, 1x Medical

Notes: The Quiptech Standard has a power surplus of 1.39 MW.

Quiptech is pleased to announce the Quiptech Standard Free Trader.
Based on a Streamlined Disk hull, the Standard offers the independent
trader another option for slicing a little more profit by including
a fuel purification plant as a standard option.  Quiptech plans to 
continue the line with a Deluxe and Master Trader models to be introduced
later this year.


Economic Data:

Down Payment:   9.1 MCr
		      O P E R A T I N G   L E V E L
          |     Full     |   Standard   | Maintenance  |    Special   |
- ----------|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
INCOME    |              |              |              |              |
    Cargo:|    1,450,000 |    1,180,000 |      310,000 |    2,380,000 |
Passenger:|    2,000,000 |    1,600,000 |      400,000 |    1,400,000 |
     Mail:|          N/A |          N/A |          N/A |          N/A |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
TOTAL INC:|    3,450,000 |    2,780,000 |      710,000 |    3,780,000 |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
EXPENSE   |              |              |              |              |
  Payment:|    2,265,000 |    2,265,000 |    2,265,000 |    2,265,000 |
     Fuel:|          N/A |       20,000 |       80,000 |       20,000 |
 Life Spt:|      850,000 |      750,000 |      450,000 |      750,000 |
    Maint:|       45,300 |       45,300 |       45,300 |       45,300 |
 Berthing:|        2,500 |        3,000 |        4,500 |        3,000 |
 Salaries:|      356,400 |      356,400 |      356,400 |      396,000 |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
TOTAL EXP:|    3,519,200 |    3,439,700 |    3,201,200 |    3,479,300 |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
  Revenue:|      -69,200 |     -659,700 |   -2,491,200 |      300,700 |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------|

Notes:  The Special Level used the same assumptions as the Standard Level
(See Below) only included a Broker/Trader as a crew member and worked with
a base of 9 passenger staterooms.  It is very plain to see how a 
Broker/Trader in the crew can make a difference between profit and 
bankruptcy. All figures represent one year of operation

Role-Play Off:

I did this as an example of what I was referring to for the THUDDD
economic considerations.  I think the Broker/Trader additional rules 
help make it more easy to judge the ships economic performance.

A few other notes.  I used the QSDS rules for the command crew and 
therefore one was required.  I also counted the Electronics crew as a 
sensor operator since that is what he will be doing.

Well, I guess that's it for now.  Any Questions?

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 17:43:49 -0800
From: John Watts <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1026

>And, since the focus of M:0 is the "central" area of the imperium, there 
>are
>specific races that are becoming of key importance. Marc has recently 
>stated
>that the Suerrat and the Geonee are being considered as major players 
>for
>game purposes... so maybe it would be good to make a Vargr/ Geonee & 
>Suerrat
>supplement, each race taking 1/2,1/4,1/4 of the book.        
I think this is definitely the way to go ( and exactly what I had in mind 
).  LOL. I'm not even sure myself what a Suerrat is.....which I think 
proves the point.

 >       Thanks!. I'm glad you like it. I am the author, Scott is the
>archivist, and the URL address is (now that you give me the opportunity 
>to post it again ;-) 
>http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/geonee/index.html        
I'm just sorry I had forgotten your name Carlos.  BTW, now the URL is 
posted again for those who missed it ( shameless plug )

Shade
- -- 
"*#%& the censors!!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:29:01 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: TNE Alien Module 1

>   I rarely see the DGP modules around anymore, but I do see the TNE
>   modules quite frequently (the one on the Hivers). Are these any good?
>   The CT Hiver module left me wanting more...
>
>   -Rob
<IMHO>
It is fairly well written, BUT IS NOT COMPATABLE WITH the older Hiver's Module.
As for the second half, The Ithklur seem to have been done after too much
Black Adder, Monty Python, and LSD... They seem to be done for humor value
only.

This Ithklur problem is most annoying to me because, for the most viscious
race known, having them running around in "San*klas" (the * is pronounced
as a 'ti' click) hats, red, with white brinm and pompom, simply destroys
any verisimilitude for me. And my player group. Peter Newman seems to be
the sole "Ithklur Apologist" I know.

Back to Hivers: My players sat down, and found 17 direct contradictions
between the CT AM:Hivers and the TNE AM1:H&I about hivers alone. Ithklur
are merely a name under CT. There is enough to get a frim grip on hivers
under H&I, and enough for PC's, but they are subtly different from the race
of the same name under CT, including some biological data.

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:08:11 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: T4 Opinions

>>> I would not like to see this
>happen, so I hope people will develop more tolerance. I myself do not use
>the TNE rules anymore, preferring the simplicity of T4, but I fully intend
>when I get the chance to continue my RCES campaign.<<
>
>I agree, Allan, so I hope you take this comment as a tolerant criticism of
>the T4 rules, but I think T4 and "simplicity" are oxymorons. The intent was
>simplicity, but the result was a task system of dubious results that has
>resulted in more complex debates than I ever saw in a discussion of TNE
>ship design rules!

This constitutes an OPINION. I did not feel that you were attacking me, and
I can understand your opinion. I guess when I said 'simplicity' I was
comparing T4 to TNE and to other games. I do feel that the game overall is
simple. yes, it has bugs and these are being worked out. But the fact that
so many people have ADDED to the rules to fill in those areas that they felt
were lacking shows that it is somewhat simple :) The problem with the task
system may in fact be that it is not detailed enough :)


>I do see your point, though. I'd like to be able to discuss TNE stuff and
>post designs here, but knowing many of the participants on this list, I
>have the feeling it could result in some fireworks.

I have a good friend named David A. Nelson who used to post ship designs
here frquently. he has all but stopped posting and is considering
unsubscribing because he feels that his preference for TNE will not be
tolerated.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:20:01 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: The module writing competition

	Joseph,

	Do you know anything about when and how the winners of Imperium
Games' recent competition will be announced?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 15:28:40 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

I like this much better than KBv1.1.. It's much cleaner and simpler to run.
This should be the basis for the bug-stomped version of T4

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 10:31:31 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Milieu Zero

Something I think that the M0 book was missing (and which I think should 
be a part of *every* book intended to be used as a gaming resource) was 
an index. The material was scattered about enough that even after a 
couple of readings, an index would be very useful. 
Also, having each 'article' written from a particular point of view is an 
excellent innovation (first seen in DGP's aliens modules, I think). There 
was some of this in M0, but I would have liked to see the entire book 
organised in this fashion. 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...

"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:36:17 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

There ought to be rules for shields, if only because the Ministry of
Internal Security undoubtedly equips its "riot-control officers" with
electrified stun-batons (a.k.a. "rabble-prods") and big plastic shields.
Player characters celebrating the restoration of the Imperium (by, for
example, taking a wrong turn on the way to the starport, and getting
caught up in the rioting, mass-arrests, and clouds of skin-staining
puke gas) might end up tangling with Uncle Cleon's shield-toting,
club-wielding enforcers...
                                                          - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 15:28:35 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Apology! (was:Re: Planet building and ecology...)

At 11:23 AM 3/5/97 -0800, I wrote:
>At 08:11 AM 3/5/97 -0500, he wrote:
>
>>	Did anybody save a transcript from the IRC seminar on
>>planet-building and if so can they send me a copy?  And could someone send
>>me a transcript from the upcoming ecology seminar?  They'd be fun to read
>>once I get a second or two of spare time... come May or so :).
>
>
>Here you go!
>>	Danke.

This was *not* supposed to go to the list, mucho apologies to everyone.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:36:57 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: T4: Barbarian Career

I came up with a career format for barbarian characters.  Here it is.  
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbarian

Enlistment:  Homeworld Tech Level 3- required; enlistment is automatic
Injury:      5-; DM +2 if Str 8+; DM +2 if End 8+; DM +2 if Int 8+
Commission:  None
Promotion:   None
Continuance: 11-

1. Physical			4. Social
  1. +1 Str			  1. Charisma
  2. +1 Str			  2. Clandestine
  3. +1 Dex			  3. Instruction
  4. +1 End			  4. Interrogation
  5. +1 End			  5. Intimidation
  6. Athletics			  6. Leadership
2. Mental			5. Career
  1. Camouflage			  1. Blade Combat
  2. Exploration		  2. Bow Combat
  3. Jack-Of-All-Trades		  3. Brawling
  4. Perception			  4. Large Blade
  5. Stealth			  5. Melee Combat
  6. Tactics			  6. Throwing
3. Educational			6. Background
  1. Craftsman			  1. Athletics
  2. Equestrian			  2. Exploration
  3. First Aid			  3. Recon
  4. History or Philosophy	  4. Stealth
  5. Language or Performance	  5. Survival
  6. Tactics			  6. Watercraft

Rank and Service Skills		Skill Eligibility:
All	Survival-1		   1 skill per year
	(One Skill from		  +1 skill per two years
	  Career Table)-1

				Mustering Out Tables
				Die Roll	Cash Table (credits)
				  1		---
				  2		---
				  3		---
				  4		---
				  5		---
				  6		500
				  7		1,000
				Max 3 rolls

				Die Roll	Benefits Table
				  1		Melee Wpn.
				  2		Melee Wpn. or Blade
				  3		Bow
				  4		Bow or Blade
				  5		Blade
				  6		Blade
				  7		---
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments?  

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 15:40:32 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

At 04:22 PM 3/5/97 -0500, Franklin wrote:

<Points aboud Traveller bladed combat snipped>

>The main reason I even mention this is because of the "history" of
>barbarian PCs and NPCs in my campaign; many of them worked as bodyguards
>and professional champions for their patrons.  Which leads me to my last
>point.  
>
>In T4, mention is made of the nobles' /code duello/.  If a noble were in a
>situation where he was incapable of defending himself, he would need the
>services of a champion.  Thus, I postulate that the Imperial (nee Sylean)
>Marines are the historical descendents of the nobles' /huscarles/, their
>fighting men on retainer, and that they have traditionally been used as
>champions for indisposed nobles.  This gives an elegant explanation for
>the automatic skill Long Blade-1 that is in keeping with the background
>presented in T4. 

Consider for a moment what a Marine has to learn in his training.  how to
operate Battle Dress, the maitence and use of weapons ranging from the Gauss
Rifle, to plasma weapons, up to tac missles.  How to sucessfully make a
meterotic re-entry, both in a drop capsule and using a re-entry kit.
Traditions and Regulations of the Naval Serivice.  I hardly think there
would be *time* to teach swordplay!

The Imperial Marines are the Imperium's "ugly solution."  Rather than a
smooth talking diplomat, or a 90,000 ton battleship making a quiet point by
just orbiting your world, when the Marines show up, the party is OVER. 

It seems that given the name, the IM are in fact the decendants of the
Solomani Marines, who are in turn the inheretors of the legacy of the USMC
and the Royal Marines.

I don't doubt that professional duelists would appear, I just don't think
the military establishment would look kindly on a noble who picked fights
and then sent young Marines to cover for him.

For a good look at how a dueling code and professional duelists might work,
read "Field of Dishonor" by David Weber, one of the Honor Harrington novels.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 15:51:22 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: (no subject)

At 11:23 PM 3/5/97 -0800, Nick Wright wrote:

>I read thus
>1. No weapon does more than 3D damage to a Human. (its a *big game* gun
>after all)

You are forgeting to put in "after penetrating armor"

>2. Thus 6D reduces to 3D for a human target.
>
>3. The unarmoured target takes the full 3D
>
>4a. For a diplo armoured target 3D converts to 3 points damage (1 for
>each die stopped but; blunt trauma)

No, 6 damage - 3 armor = 3d damage done to the target.  the arguement is
wether the 3 dice stooped by the armor convert to blunt damage (I say no,
incidently..)
>
>4b. For a rigid armoured target - No damage

6 damage - 3 armor = 3d damage..
>
>Here is where I lose my way a bit: What is the point of rigid armour
>with an AV greater than 3 (excepting shotguns etc) if AV3 instantly
>deflects all projectiles without harm to the wearer.

The reduction to 3d is done only after armor is applied.. thusly, a weapon
with a damge of 6, vs armour 2, would do 4d damage, reduced to 3d because of
blow-through.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 19:11:56 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

At 06:55 PM 3/5/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>        Certainly, for seconds (fighters), to tens of seconds (shuttle). But
>>not for extended periods of time. I have a reference at home somewhere which
>>gives various levels of acceleration and how long you can tolerate it.
>
>WOW! Could you plase post it to the list. Most assumptions made on
>G-tolerance is related to fighter pilots and NASA guys ie short time
>periods. The organs in the body due to different densities will start to
>move around for instance which may be dangerous.

        I'll try to dig it up. I seem to recall somebody posting it to the
TML a few months ago, which is where I got it.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1029
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1030



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The module writing competition
Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav
Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins
Artists...
Re: G-loads
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1028
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins
Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)
Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's
Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)
Re: ID4 and Americans
Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins
Fencing
Re: Apology! (was:Re: Planet building and ecology...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:07:47 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: The module writing competition

On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> 	Do you know anything about when and how the winners of Imperium
> Games' recent competition will be announced?

April Fools' Day, or thereabouts.  I.e., April 1.  Or so says Tim Brown, 
Judge Extraordinaire. [G]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 19:11:43 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

At 04:26 PM 3/4/97 -0800, you wrote:

>>Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter (jets)  
>>pilots about the same.
>
>Is that true?  I thought no humans currently could function at more than
>about 3g, even with a g-suit.  Anyone know for sure?

        G-suited fighter pilots, with proper "g-straining" maneuvers, can
endure 9+G turns, while tracking hostile targets and figuring out how to get
at them, but those only last a few seconds. The shuttle crew goes through
about a minute and a half at around 3-4G, if memory serves. And volunteers
experienced more than either during rocket sled testing. 'Course, they
weren't "functioning."

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 19:11:46 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

At 12:11 AM 3/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>   I'm afraid I tend to agree with Volker.  In fact I was about to
>suggest a seperate TNE mailing list anyway for those of us who know the
>ending of the movie "Third Imperium", and would like to discuss the
>future of the Traveller universe from the year 1130 or so forward beyond
>the premature end of the TNE storyline.  It would be a much more
>productive forum without having to hear Yet Another Lecture on why Virus
>sucks as a plot device, why the TNE game mechanics stink, why the
>Reformation Coalition are Nazis, or why TNE isn't Traveller for the
>umpteenth time.
>
>   Is anyone else interested?  What would be involved in getting this
>done?  I'm not suggesting that people abandon this list, just something
>additional for us heretics.

        Well, two comments on this:

        1. There's a TNE-RCES mailing list out there already, although
there's currently not much traffic on it.

        2. I REALLY hate the idea of splitting the TML again. Frankly, if
there are pinheads out there who will wet their pants because I happen to
discuss something in which they're not interested, let them wet their pants.
You don't hear CT-era campaigners griping about the Milieu 0 stuff, nor MT
campaigners whining about people's custom campaigns, nor the M0 folks
bitching about MT. Face it, folks, there's a wide variety of tastes out
there. I won't go into why I like TNE mechanics here, or how I, as a CS
master's student and working Air Force engineer came to grips with Virus, or
the idiocy of claiming TNE is any more violent than any other incarnation.
But if you close off a line of discussion because of your own narrowminded
preconceptions, well, I won't miss you.

        Can't we all just get along?

- -- Famine, of the Four Horsemen of Traveller Heresy
- -- aka

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:01:04 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav

> BTW Weird is spelled weird not wierd as most(?) yanks seem to think.
> All this should be taken in with with a bit of a smile ;)

Right, but we all have this rule floating around in our heads that we 
learned in school but keep forgetting there are exceptions to.  It 
goes like this:  I before E except after C <G>

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 19:17:57 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins

At 01:24 PM 3/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>A few years ago, I called Steve Jackson Games' old Illuminati BBS and
>happened upon a text file called "Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies
>and Munchkins" which described all gamers as belonging to one of these
>four groups, and detailed the various game behavior of each.

        Stand by for my three-page Traveller contribution, as soon as I get
home and dig it up out of the bowels of my computer ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:42:33 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Artists...

Blair Reynolds has also done work for Pagan Publishing.  He did the cover
to their Call of Cthulhu supplement Delta Green.

Mike Vilardi, though, has been doing work for some marginal game called
Star Battles or something.  I thought it sounded pretty militaristic. :)

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://www.visi.com/~danger/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 16:46:51 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: G-loads

William F. Hostman wrote:
> I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE AND FLIGHT SCHOOL that the AVERAGE private pilot
> will frequently do sustained 2 and 3 G turns, and that 4 G turns are no
> problem (tight circles, on the 20 second range, in a Cessna, generate over
> 3 G) for short periods.
> 
> Jet Fighters can generate upwards of 12 G transient loads, but most wings
> are designed for 10-11 G loading. Most military pilots are required to
> function at 6 G's for short periods (transient loads). G-suits are standard
> issue for jet-jockeys, but aren't needed for 6-G transient loads (T-33
> orientation rides for CAP cadets pull 5-6 G maneuvers, and do NOT issue
> G-suits).
> 
> Apollo-Saturn V missions generated 11 G for 5 minutes, without G-Suits.
> Nobody could move, but nobody AFAIK passed out.

All excellent examples for use in Vehicle combat.  So we could expect 
overloaded Grav bikes...  However, none of these examples is even close 
to the time frame for Starship combat.  Starship combat turns are 20 or
30 MINUTES depending on whose system you use.  So a short combat lasts 
a couple of hours.  So 5G uncompensated can't be used during combat,
they couldn't act to attack, defend, or maneuver.  Locking in a pattern 
for a full half hour would IMO be stupid.  So what's the highest G
that people can stand for a full half hour and 1) be able to move 
effectively and 2) react quickly?

Douglas McCorison

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:50:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1028

Responding to Kenneth Bearden:

>Fireworks are not always bad.  Whenever you have a group of
>opinionated people together talking, you get disagreements.
>
>Heck, whenever you have a group of people together--strike the
>opinionated part--talking, you get disagreements.
>
>That's what this list is all about, isn't it--to discuss differing
>views of Traveller in all its forms?

For some reason, issues of what system you use result in an inordinate
amount of flaming around here. You should have seen the CT/MTers go against
the TNEers about a year ago!

>When I get into a disagreement with someone here on the list, there
>is one of two outcomes for me.  We agree in the end or we disagree.
>
>I've gone into some very strong debates with the intention of
>changing the other guy's mind--and I got my mind changed.
>
>I always try to keep an open mind to what the other person is saying.
> My opinion is not always the best one.  And that's why I'm here--to
>share ideas with fellow people who like Traveller.

I commend you for the above and wholeheartedly agree.

>I guess I'm saying all this because it seems, from your post, that
>you are afraid of offending somebody here on the list.

No, that's not it. It's just that not much comes of the sort of conflict
we're discussing here. Usually ends up in an 'agreement to disagree.' Or
resentment.

>I'm not advocating belligerency, mind you, but you should state
>what you think.

What I think is one thing. The system I'm using is another. Some folks
wouldn't like me taking up bandwidth with TNE stuff when they're more into
T4 and vice versa.

But as far as stating what I think, I'm more than willing.

While on the subject, I will say that I think reverting to the CT rules as
the basis for a new game was a big mistake. TNE's mechanics are simply the
best, most realistic I've ever come across. And the task system is par
excellence. It functions great and is only marginally more difficult to
learn and use than that of MT. And the results are far more realistic
roleplaying.

TNE's problem was the poor background material. The setting was unpopular,
a fact that never seemed to register with the game's authors.
Unfortunately, dislike of the setting sullied peoples' opinions of the
entire game. Sort of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I didn't like the RCES setting either, so I conducted a Regency campaign.

I've been playing the game since 1980, so I played CT and thought it was
fine for the time. But having then played MT and TNE extensively (and I
mean EXTENSIVELY; not just a couple of times but for literally hundreds of
sessions), I found that over the years I matured as an RPGer and so did the
mechanics. Folks complained about the complexity of TNE, but I'm no
gearhead and I didn't have a difficult time with the transition.

I considered shifting to T4, but after the five players I referee (not a
single one of them an engineer or scientist, mind you!) got hold of the new
rules, they gasped and threatened to lynch me if I forced it upon them. By
the time I had finished reading the rules, which suffered from an obvious
lack of playtesting or even a proper amount of thoughtful consideration, I
agreed with them.

>One thing that is true here on the TML--no matter how many people
>agree with you, there are always those who don't.

Or anywhere for that matter.

>But, that's not a negative to the TML.  It is one of the good things.

Only when it doesn't come down to outright flaming.

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:46:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Doctor Vince <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

At 04:22 PM 3/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In the T4 rulebook, it mentioned that someone using Fencing would have an
>advantage over someone using Blade Combat (or, presumably, Melee Combat 
>as well).  In reality -- or, at least, in the Society of Creative
>Anachronism (SCA) -- a fencer has a major *dis*advantage against other
>fighters: *shields*!

<disclaimer>
Not only am I (well I *was*) a sabre fencer, but I also used to routinely
paste SCAdian fencers and stickjocks when we could agree on rules*
</disclaimer>

First problem: Assuming Imperial standard armament development akin to what
we have in the 20th century, show me the unit that routinely kits its
troopers with shields in anything more than archaic full dress. I submit
that they don't. Shields are big, unweildy, and and detract from the amount
of ammunition or the weapons you can carry.

Second problem: Shields are a good equalizer, but no one is going to take on
a barbarian with long blade and shield if he has a pistol or small arm at
hand. If he *doesn't* have a firearm at hand, the fencer can *still* paste
the barbarian, by applying the advantage that fencing gives you, namely
speed and distance. The barbarian is always trying to get up close to you.
All you need to do is keep him at a distance.

While I will submit that hitting someone at the exteme range of your blade
makes for shallow and usually non-life threatening wounds, they hurt like
hell, throw off your opponents attacks, and hinder his movement. That is
usually good enough to allow for an opening to either escape or to do some
*real* damage once the opposing blade is taken care of.

>
>In reality, someone using sword-and-shield (or weapon-and-shield) will
>kick ass against an equally skilled opponent using just a sword; he will
>usually score well against a moderately better opponent.  

Completely untrue. Your barbarian with his 7kg sword is swinging it a *lot*
slower than me with my 2.5 kilo sabre. As he swings, I slice the tendons in
his arm, he drops his heavy and now useless weapon and has to hide behind
his sheild.

I can now stand well out of the way of any clumsy shield punch (which is
most often an untrained desperation maneuver) and cut the leg tendons, the
head, or anyplace else that the shield can't cover. Also, my sabre moves a
hell of a lot faster than his shield, which means I can feint him out of his
shorts and hit anyplace I really choose.


>
>I have yet to see *any* version of Traveller which takes this into
>account.  Another disadvantage to the fencer is the relative strength of
>the blades.  Consider the following example:
>
>Sir Fop: "I parry your clumsy slash!"  
>
><SFX: broadsword shatters sabre>

With proper distance (which is the best parry) you needn't worry about this.
However, with modern alloys your example is still not valid, unless the
steel in the sabre is too brittle. A modern composite blade (akin to Toledo
steel) won't shatter like you suggest.

>The only real disadvantage for someone using a shield is the fact that he
>can't see through it.  When he uses it to block an upper strike, he's
>momentarily blind (to his opponent).  But, in a SFRPG, a star-faring
>barbarian can have a shield crafted from a transparent metal or
>high-strength ceramic to get around this.  To be even more clever, he
>could have it coated to be one-way transparent (I can see you, but you
>can't see me...).  

Again, this is irrelevant given the speed of my attack with the sabre. Your
star-faring barbarian and his nifty shield are still going to assume that I
am committed to one attack, when really I am waiting for my true target. In
fact if you can see me through your shield you might be at a disadvantage,
because you are convinced that there is *no way* I could alter my attack.

>In T4, mention is made of the nobles' /code duello/.  If a noble were in a
>situation where he was incapable of defending himself, he would need the
>services of a champion.  Thus, I postulate that the Imperial (nee Sylean)
>Marines are the historical descendents of the nobles' /huscarles/, their
>fighting men on retainer, and that they have traditionally been used as
>champions for indisposed nobles.  This gives an elegant explanation for
>the automatic skill Long Blade-1 that is in keeping with the background
>presented in T4.  

The Marines are far more than the descendents of your Imperial Noble's
lackeys. They were a corps of free men, trained and devoted to the service
of a government. The Marines are a unit, with esprit, not merely a
collection of professional bodyguards. The reason that they still train with
the cutlass is two-fold:

1) Tradition from ancient wet ship boarding actions.

2) It is still useful to use a long blade in Spaceship combat, because if
you crack a suit, you generally kill your man. However, to this end, light
strong blades are preferred to avoid rotational/angular momentum problems
with a huge windup from a heavy blade. Also you don't need to kill the man
*in* the suit with your blow...you just need to pop it, or slice a hose, or
open a wide gash in the fabric. Hence the sport fencing idea of *any hit is
a kill* holds literally.

At least that's my take on it Franklin... :)

Vince
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Familiarity breeds contempt. People assume I am familiar with everything
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	"The passion of lovers is for death..."
				Bauhaus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for His Infernal Majesty, is :
		drvince@ix.netcom.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 20:22:12 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins

Favourite Ship:

Real Men: Mercenary Cruiser
Roleplayers: Free/Far Trader
Loonies: Famille Spofulam Megaboing(tm) Fusion+ Grav Pogo Stick.
Munchkins: Whatever you can fit the biggest quad-barrelled spinal mount into.

Favourite T4 weapon

Real Men: Broadswords (for their Noble characters)
Roleplayers: Magnum Revolvers (for their Free Trader Captains)
Loonies: Bats.
Munchkins: FGMP-15s (!).


	That's my contribution: gottagetbacktothegrind...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 20:30:02 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)

Harold D. Hale wrote:

>   No, or the US *would* have.  The primary cause of premature death in
> Native Americans between 1500 and 1900 wasn't whiteman's bullets--by far
> and away the primary cause was disease.  It is estimated by reputable
> scholars that as much as a quarter to a third of the native population
> died in the first centuries after first contact from diseases ranging
> from smallpox to whooping cough (these diseases were unknown to Native
> Americans thus they had no immunity). 

I have seen estimates at 90% casualties. The Central American (spanish contacted) Indians 
numbered around 20 million, the north american (british and french contacted (primarily)) 
numbered an estimated 3-6 million. This IS one of the reasons there are more natives left in 
the southern areas. BTW, the Europeans did not initially know that they were the vector of 
the disease.

>  In some cases whole tribes were
> wiped out (we know this because of the diaries of priests and
> Conquistdors who noted that certain tribes disappeared).  Native
> Americans do get one revenge though if I recall my history correctly:
> they gave syphilis to Europeans in return.

We gave Indians alchohol, they gave us tobacco...let's call it even

>    So what the hell does this have to do with Traveller?
> 
>    Substitute the Third Imperium for the Americans.  By exploiting
> rivalries between various rival pocket empires, by negotiating treaties
> with locals to secure economic and political gains in various regions
> (securing some areas as "autonomous districts" under Imperial control if
> necessary), only to break those treaties later if circumstances
> warranted, and by open warfare to bring worlds into line, the Third
> Imperium was able to bring under its boot heel a large chunk of the
> space that was formerly occupied by the previous versions of the
> Imperium.  While not always successful (the Julian War don't exactly go
> as planned), the Third Imperium had by in large a very good run as
> empires go.

I always saw the Vargr as being like the plains Indians. In the beginning they could kick the 
merry hell out of the humans (read: europeans) but as the better organized humans gained 
strength, all the bravery and wishes of the vargr could save them from the flat face 
onslaught. The vargr are called raiders, and worse. But they were there first.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 20:24:25 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's

Franklin wrote:

>
>In the T4 rulebook, it mentioned that someone using Fencing would have an
>advantage over someone using Blade Combat (or, presumably, Melee Combat
>as well).  In reality -- or, at least, in the Society of Creative
>Anachronism (SCA) -- a fencer has a major *dis*advantage against other
>fighters: *shields*!
>
>In reality, someone using sword-and-shield (or weapon-and-shield) will
>kick ass against an equally skilled opponent using just a sword; he will
>usually score well against a moderately better opponent.
>
>I have yet to see *any* version of Traveller which takes this into
>account.  Another disadvantage to the fencer is the relative strength of
>the blades.  Consider the following example:
>
>Sir Fop: "I parry your clumsy slash!"
>
><SFX: broadsword shatters sabre>
>
>Thonk the Uncivilized: "<grin>... <slash!><slash!><slash!>... Are you dead
>yet?"
>
>Sir Nebbish: "I say, that's not terribly sporting of you."
>
>Thonk: "<shield-punch>... If you hurry, the dentist can salvage most of
>those teeth I just knocked out."
>
>The only real disadvantage for someone using a shield is the fact that he
>can't see through it.  When he uses it to block an upper strike, he's
>momentarily blind (to his opponent).  But, in a SFRPG, a star-faring
>barbarian can have a shield crafted from a transparent metal or
>high-strength ceramic to get around this.  To be even more clever, he
>could have it coated to be one-way transparent (I can see you, but you
>can't see me...).

[snip]


	In Terran history, there's a very good reason why shields and most
personal armour went the way of the dodo several TL's ago, and why swords
evolved (yes, I say, evolved) into cav sabres & rapiers.  It's very simple;
the armour of the time was useless against firearms.

	After gunpowder made shields, chainmail, plate, and so forth pretty
much useless on the battlefield at approximately TL-1 or 2 (since they
didn't affect your odds of getting wounded when shot any and just slowed
you down), the need for bloody great big phallic substit.., er, armour
cracking swords disappeared.  Therefore, Sir Lug with his big, utterly
lethal, and terribly slow two-handed sword suffered a massive disadvantage
when going up against Sir Swifty with his little rapier; Sir Swifty was a)
faster on his feet given that his balance was more optimal for movement
rather than counterbalancing ridiculously overweight, overlong swords, and
b) faster-handed since his weapon was lighter.  Quite simply, you don't
need a lot of kinetic energy to kill with a blade, and lighter swords are
more energy-efficient, therefore faster and therefore more effective given
unarmoured opponents.

	Cutting someone in two is every bit as lethal as slicing a carotid
or just jamming a foot of properly profiled, unhygienic blade though a
vital organ; thing is is that it takes longer to wind up, your opponent can
figure out what you're up to *ages* before you're going to do it (which is
the big wet sloppy tonsil-licker of death), and while you're using most of
your upper body strength to swing back your weapon in order to get plenty
of oomph into the swing, he's daintily snickering into his lace hankie and
extending his arm, and by extension his point, into the numerous soft and
vital portions of your anatomy that you've exposed...

	In Trav, I would certainly expect shields to be encountered at some
point... on backward planets, where visiting Imperial Nobles would likely
be packing guns (since this isn't Sylea or the Imperial Court anymore) and
numerous henchmen with bigger guns.  Were people to start lugging shields
around in the Imperium again, as some sort of retro fashion statement,
those worried about them would just have to start packing guns to make them
obsolete again...  And let's face it... when up against PGMPs or FGMP's a
shield ain't worth squat.  I suspect that even if one could stop a round
from a gauss gun or large-cal firearm, your shield arm would probably
fracture, or if at best get real sore.

	And before I go back to work, I should also add that AFAIK real
broadswords and shields are considerably heavier than the recycled stop
signs and tarted-up rattan canes the SCA fighters pack.  This makes SCA
fighting somewhat dubious IMHO as a test-bed for the sort of comparison
you're making.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 20:39:53 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)

Neil Simpson wrote:
> (boy, didn`t things go pear shaped for the Zho`s when the Empress Wave hit?)

What did you have the Empress Wave do?

I have only my own ideas but I am curious what anybody else would have it do

I had it enhance characteristics: Vilani go conservative, Vargr go ballistic, Aslan go 
landhunting, Solomani go psycho

zhodani are an anomaly. Their psi powers resist the wave, but it tended to mess there 
society up

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 20:43:28 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> 
> Zhodani agents report that Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> -> In-Reply-To: <A3CB8F62FB9@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>
> ->
> -> << Why, we Germans are only out for Unity, Right and Freedom and that
> -> these are the goals we should all strive for for the better of our
> -> land... I can see nothing bloodthirsty in that...! >>
> Well what i meant was what our hymn said about us!

I forgot to mention based on your last post re: Germany vs Scientology 

Tell your government to keep up the good work

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 20:40:57 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

Neil Simpson wrote:
> 
> David Smart wrote:
> > In short, he does what's expedient to getting his way rather than what's
> > truly beneficial for everyone. Sorry, I'm sticking with the Zhos.
> ---Maybe he does have some ideas worth looking at after all.Conquest by
> whatever means available and spouting whatever rhetoric you want is the
> best way to expand an Empire. There is no such thing as something which
> is truly beneficial for everyone.As the old sayimg goes,you can`t make
> an omelette without breaking eggs.

the trick is convincing the rest of the eggs that the extra space in the carton is a positive thing

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 20:48:08 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> If non six-sided users are heretics, what am I if I don't use *any* dice?
> 
> Pagan or Atheist?

Depends
If you believe in no dice, then you are a pagan
If you do not use dice because you don't believe in them, you are an atheist
If you do not use dice, but are not sure why, you are an agnostic
If you do not use dice, then go back later, you are a backsliding infidel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 20:51:16 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> You fool!  You've succumbed to the evil propoganda of the enemies of the
> Imperium!  Cleon has only the best interests of every member of the
> Imperium at heart.  To him, honor is everything.  Don't believe the
> dishonorable lies you hear about him.  The nobles who were supposedly
> "silenced" have, in fact, simply left Imperial space of their own accord,
> since they were not equipped to deal with the new, honor-based system of
> government.

Honour. Sure.
I believe him. Right.
No noble is noble, and the more saomeone claims they are run by honour, the less 
honourable they probably are. (this is a corollary to the opposites rule from politics, ie no 
democratic people's republic is run by the people or democratic)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 20:56:01 -0500 (EST)
From: TBSVT@aol.com
Subject: Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins

In a message dated 3/6/97 12:16:20 AM, you wrote:

>General Opinion
>Loonies: Traveller is too serious for loonies.

Traveller to serious for Loonies I don't know about that one   take lunch 
"Whats for lunch?"
" The Hiver's got some corndogs and the schall'y got the drinks"


>Favorite Character:

>Loonies play Hiver Entertainers, Zhodani Rogues or chainsaw duellists.

Dont forget Ithklur Arobic instructers, Zhodani Con artists(On the zho home
world name slips me at the moment) and jump Scientists with a LOVE of the
wall

>Favorite Traveller Adventure/Product (CT)
>Loonies: "Chainsaw Combat In Traveller" (Space Gamer article)

I will find this and IT will be good


>Favorite Traveller character generation system:


>Loonies like TNE (for all the insane character mixes)

Lets see 
1st term Attorney
2sd term Entertaniner
3rd term hiver tech school
4th term Construction worker
5th term Barbarian
6th and last term tough


Victor 
"pay no mind to white jacket with the long slevees"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 21:04:18 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <diemos@ican.net>
Subject: Fencing

There is another reason why fencing is fun in T4.  It uses social
standing instead of dexterity.  A character in my campaign is a
knight, but has a dexterity of only 5 or so.  He came very close to
defeating a Droashav (2m tall, 4 arms, lots of claws) with a foil.
Of course, very close is not good enough, but it was good fun all
round.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 18:12:02 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Apology! (was:Re: Planet building and ecology...)

At 03:28 PM 3/5/97 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>This was *not* supposed to go to the list, mucho apologies to everyone.

No, it was great for those of us who couldn't be there.  Thanks!

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1030
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 6 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1031



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Blunt Trama Damage
resource fiction
Traveller NAH
Thank you for your help
Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: All things Nastiness
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: TNE Mailing List
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav
Re: A Problem with First Survey
Re: resource fiction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 97 20:26:35 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: re: Blunt Trama Damage

In a message dated 3/2/97 8:22 AM, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

>> I have been looking over this thread and have been thinking.
>> Blunt trama should be applied only when the round DOES NOT penetrate. 
>> Think about it.  Your wearing a diplo vest(av=3) and you get hit by a
>> revolver slug(dv=2).  the round does not penetrate, but you still feel
>> the "whomp" of the slug.  2 points blunt trama.  You take a 6d rifle
>> shot, the round is going to penetrate, but the velocity is slowed down
>> reducing from 6dice to 3dice, but as the shot rips trough your vest and
>> into you, there will be no "whomp", no blunt at all, so ignore it.
>
>I think the "whomp" is on your chest when you are hit.
>
>If you do it this way, you get in a situation where having armor will 
>increase your chance of being damaged.  That's what we were trying to 
>fix with the blunt trauma rule.

I disagree. You're chances of getting damaged are the same. I think what 
you meant to say is that "...having armor will increase the *possible 
amount* of damage inflicted" ;-)

>If you are hit with a 4D6 gun while wearing AV3 flexible armor, under 
>your system, you'd take 1 D6 of damage.
>
>But then again, lets say, wearing the same armor, you are hit with a 
>3 D6 round.  Under your system, the character would take a solid 3 
>points of damage.  
>
>In many cases, that 3 points will be more damage than what you would 
>have taken if the round had penetrated.

You're quite correct, Ken, using CmdrX's example, with AV3 armour, 4D6 
with armour has a 33% chance to hurt less than 3D6 with armour.

But with your system, there is a chance (albeit a smaller chance) that 
6D6 damage will hurt less than 4D6 damage. Min damage is 4 at 4D6; min. 
damage is 3 at 6D6.

More importantly, at 4D6 or 5D6, min. damage is *greater than* min. 
damage without armour!

>> Take it from someone with personal experience in wounds, blunt trama
>> makes bruises, but penetration friggin hurts! :)
>
>Which your explanation doesn't support, given my example above.

Ah, but neither does yours... :-)

>If you don't really like my basic blunt trauma fix, try Glenn Grant's 
>or Mike Sellers' more advanced fixes.  Both of those are good ideas.

I'm not familiar with their fixes, but here's what I would do. (Glenn 
Hoppe's "fix")

Perhaps I don't quite understand the rationale behind the max damage 
rule, but it seems to me that the easiest way to fix the problem is to 
*not* simply "ignore" damage beyond 3D6.

I think that for every die of damage "ignored", +1 should be added to the 
damage roll. Keep blunt trauma as written.

eg. Getting hit with 6D6 of damage without armour is actually 3D6+3; 4D6 
is 3D6+1.

In other words, if you wear AV3 armour and get hit with >= 6D6 damage, 
amount of damage rolled will be the same as if you were "butt nekkid".

For comparison, here is the damage inflicted, using standard T4 system, 
CmdrX's system, your system, and my system.

                    T4         Ken      CmdrX      GH
3D6, AV3 Armour      3          3         3         3
4D6, AV3 Armour     4-9        4-9       1-6       4-9
                   (1D6+3)   (1D6+3)    (1D6)    (1D6+3)
6D6, AV3 Armour     6-21       3-18      3-18      6-21
                   (3D6+3)    (3D6)     (3D6)    (3D6+3)

3D6, No Armour     ---------- 3-18 ----------      3-18   
4D6, No Armour     ---------- 3-18 ----------      4-19
6D6, No Armour     ---------- 3-18 ----------      6-21



===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 18:27:11 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: resource fiction

New thread.  This should be in the FAQ.

Actually, the bladed combat thread got me thinking about this, because it
reminded me of "The Forever War", where the troops are eventually reduced
to using (very special) spears and swords inside an energy dampening field.  

So: what fiction do you like for resource material?  I've already obliquely
suggested "The Count of Monte Christo" just because I think you could
retell that story in a Traveller-Imperium setting easily and well.

What other movies, books, etc., do you connect up somehow with Traveller?
No defense is needed, of course; we all have our own ideas and visions.
Still, if there's something in particular that strikes you, let us know.

A few of mine, off the top of my head:

"The Forever War"
"Ender's Game"
"Armor" -- full (scout) battledress against big bugs
"Alien" -- the working (wo)man's side of Traveller
"Star Wars" -- just for the Imperium, Han Solo, and Jabba :)
               (but does anyone do the mystical thing with
                Jedi-like people in their game?)
"Outland"
"Bladerunner" -- yeah it's a bit dark, but so what?
"King David's Spaceship", "The Mote in God's Eye", etc. --
    so-so Co-Dominium stuff that you can lift pretty easily;
    same with most of the Known Space stories
"Deep Space Nine" and "Babylon 5" (but NOT the rest of ST) -- 
    good, semi-gritty, semi-clean view of hi TL societies.

Hmm. Too much video, not enough paper on that list.  I'm sure there are a
zillion other classics I've left out (I've not mentioned Starship Troopers
or the Stainless Steel Rat books, but...).  What are some of yours,
especially ones the rest of us might not think of?
  

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 19:33:33 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Traveller NAH

Snipped from the TML:

>  Naval Architect's Manual refers to a
>product that will provide instructions for using ships designed with FF&S
>in Traveller games (i.e., how to make deckplans, how ships are run, etc.).

I hope IG takes this opportunity to revisit some of the published ship
designs and deck plans. I remember with chagrin some of the ridiculous
designs published in the past: starships whose illustrations, deck plans,
and dimensions from the design haven't the slightest resemblance to each
other; ships whose crew space exceed the designed space by 400%;
unstreamlined ships with wings; vanishing fuel storage; no raw material,
food, water, or replacement air storage; hatches and elevators in the
middle of hallways; doors that open into each other; lounges and mess halls
included in the deck plans but not mentioned in the design; volume-wasting
corridors that lead nowhere; doors that open into space; choke points at
critical ship areas; "small" staterooms the size of hotel suites; no
storage or maintenance space; no personal storage space; no toilets or
decontamination facilities; no facilities for passengers with children; no
offices, conference rooms or workrooms;  ... well I could go on and on. A
lot of the published deck plans seem like advertisements for loft-style
apartments, they look nice on the brochures but as soon as you walk inside
you notice how unlivable they are.

I have designed some deck plans which I feel are more useful, though my
draftsmanship isn't professional. It's not that difficult; I estimate only
50% of the volume for staterooms is actually private living space, 20% is
hallway and common area, 20% is life-support equipment and storage, 10% is
private storage space. A small stateroom is about the size of a pullman
cabin on a train, a large stateroom is about the size of a private dorm or
hostel suite. Most commercial lodging is actually for couples, so passenger
accomodations in my campaign combines two large staterooms into a
double-large stateroom, about the size of a small hotel suite, with a
double bed or bunk. Another important consideration is that, since
interstellar travel takes weeks, business travellers have access to office
and conference space so they can carry out their business en route.

For practical, space-efficient, designs check out deck plans for cruise
ships (available at tour companies). Several facilities on board cruise
ships should be available on starships, especially ones that carry
passengers, such as lounges, swimming pools, exercise rooms, libraries,
conference rooms, daycare centres, shops, casinos, restaurants, and luxury
staterooms.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 19:35:45 -0800
From: KevinC <kevinc@cnetech.com>
Subject: Thank you for your help

Thanks to everyone who answered me with Roger Sanger's ( of DGP) email
address.

In case anyone else needs it, I am told it is:
rodge@cyberspace.com

Thanks, once more, for the rapid and bountiful responses.

KevinC
kevinc@cnetech.com
Pentapod's World     http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:02:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins

Favorite world in the Marches (CT era):

Real Men: Esalin/Jewell (Convenient to the front when the Joes get antsy)
Roleplayers: Regina/Regina (Court intrigue, crossroads of cultures)
Loonies: Tee-Tee-Tee/Trin's Veil (Duh)
Munchkins: Fulacin/Rhylanor (Snuck peek at adventure before ref got it)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:11:35 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

I emerge once again from my work-induced coma to reply to the following
written by Doctor Vince:

>
>At 04:22 PM 3/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>In the T4 rulebook, it mentioned that someone using Fencing would have an
>>advantage over someone using Blade Combat (or, presumably, Melee Combat
>>as well).  In reality -- or, at least, in the Society of Creative
>>Anachronism (SCA) -- a fencer has a major *dis*advantage against other
>>fighters: *shields*!
>
><disclaimer>
>Not only am I (well I *was*) a sabre fencer, but I also used to routinely
>paste SCAdian fencers and stickjocks when we could agree on rules*
></disclaimer>


	Greetings, fellow ex-fencer... I fenced ep=E9e for about 6 years (3
of them on the McGill fencing team) before law school ruined my schedule
for me :).  Did a bit of sabre, too.  Never fenced a SCAdian; just talked
shop with them.


>
>First problem: Assuming Imperial standard armament development akin to what
>we have in the 20th century, show me the unit that routinely kits its
>troopers with shields in anything more than archaic full dress. I submit
>that they don't. Shields are big, unweildy, and and detract from the amount
>of ammunition or the weapons you can carry.


	Good point; only modern example that I can think of are those
plastic shields that riot police carry; good against rocks, bottles, and so
forth, but I would suspect little good against much else...


>
>Second problem: Shields are a good equalizer, but no one is going to take o=
n
>a barbarian with long blade and shield if he has a pistol or small arm at
>hand. If he *doesn't* have a firearm at hand, the fencer can *still* paste
>the barbarian, by applying the advantage that fencing gives you, namely
>speed and distance. The barbarian is always trying to get up close to you.
>All you need to do is keep him at a distance.


	Indeed.  Assuming equal levels of physical fitness, the barbarian
will tire more quickly given the heavier weapon not to mention the weight
of the shield.  As far as range is going, it occurs to me that having the
shield arm out front, will a) affect his lunge somewhat from a balance
point of view, and b) slow down his recovery from a lunge, as he can't haul
himself back up into stance with his off arm.  Given that he's leading with
his unarmed arm, his effective distance/lethal radius while using the
shield will be lower than yours.  So the fencer, assuming a lack of
obstructions, will have a speed and mobility advantage.


>
>While I will submit that hitting someone at the exteme range of your blade
>makes for shallow and usually non-life threatening wounds, they hurt like
>hell, throw off your opponents attacks, and hinder his movement. That is
>usually good enough to allow for an opening to either escape or to do some
>*real* damage once the opposing blade is taken care of.


	Then there's the effect on morale... and this is my ep=E9e bias
showing, but there are a lot of places where a mere four-cm deep puncture
wound can put you in intensive care or the morgue.  A punctured lung is
apparently a very unpleasant thing to suffer :).


>
>>
>>In reality, someone using sword-and-shield (or weapon-and-shield) will
>>kick ass against an equally skilled opponent using just a sword; he will
>>usually score well against a moderately better opponent.
>
>Completely untrue. Your barbarian with his 7kg sword is swinging it a *lot*
>slower than me with my 2.5 kilo sabre. As he swings, I slice the tendons in
>his arm, he drops his heavy and now useless weapon and has to hide behind
>his sheild.


	Assuming he's not using a weapon with a basket hilt, you can always
cut for his hand and make sure that he has to zip up his fur loincloth with
his teeth from then on...


>
>I can now stand well out of the way of any clumsy shield punch (which is
>most often an untrained desperation maneuver) and cut the leg tendons, the
>head, or anyplace else that the shield can't cover. Also, my sabre moves a
>hell of a lot faster than his shield, which means I can feint him out of hi=
s
>shorts and hit anyplace I really choose.


	Well, here, let's not forget that actual cav sabres are a lot
heavier than fencing sabres, but still, I'm not sure how useful a shield
would be against someone with good speed and point control once a shield
punch has been launched; sliding your point past it and into his juicy bits
should be easy, especially if the shield blocks his view of your point.
And then again, you've got far more precise control of your point than he
has with something strapped to his forearm.  And the range of movement is
more restricted... of course, it is in close to his body, but yeah... I
wouldn't want to be using shield punches as a main offensive tactic; when
the opportunity presents itself, sure, but otherwise, ferget it.

>
>
>>
>>I have yet to see *any* version of Traveller which takes this into
>>account.  Another disadvantage to the fencer is the relative strength of
>>the blades.  Consider the following example:
>>
>>Sir Fop: "I parry your clumsy slash!"
>>
>><SFX: broadsword shatters sabre>
>
>With proper distance (which is the best parry) you needn't worry about this=
=2E
>However, with modern alloys your example is still not valid, unless the
>steel in the sabre is too brittle. A modern composite blade (akin to Toledo
>steel) won't shatter like you suggest.


	As well, let's not forget that the popular conception of a parry as
interposing your blade across the arc of his swing in order to block it is
somewhat limited... parries also include using leverage to deflect, not
block, the attack, which is often a more effective thing to do, especially
if your opponent's blade is much heavier and will therefore take more time
to recover from the attack.

	For non-fencers, look at the following diagram:

	      |
	0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D-
	      |

               ^        ^   ^        ^
               | forte  |   | foible |


	Simply put, if I apply pressure upon the foible of his blade with
the forte of my blade, I will enjoy a significant mechanical advantage; I
will have better leverage with which to push his point off target.  In
order to effectively parry an attack you don't have to stop it cold, just
make sure it misses you.

	Therefore, the popular image of the barbarian's broadsword smashing
the noble's rapier might hold true if the noble were boneheaded and
unskilled; a better image might be of the noble noting the impending cut,
glancing at his watch, and rather than stupidly blocking it merely picking
the barbarian's point up with his blade, sweeping it somewhat off-target,
and then jamming his point through a tender portion of the barbarian's
anatomy.  This would be most effective against a downwards cut to the head
or shoulders (deflect sideways), or a high lateral cut (deflect over head).
Lower lateral cuts should just be dealt with by a) stop cuts/thrusts or b)
stepping out of the range of the swing and then feinting to the head...
shield comes up, and then things get real fun; if he blinds himself with
it, he deserves whatever is coming to him.  Or as you pointed out,
out-feint him; flick your point up and down several times and then go for
his sword arm as it swings back.

	Dammit... I am really getting the urge to suit up and go to town on
someone... trouble is, I doubt if I'd fit into my gear anymore :(.


[snippage]

>
>2) It is still useful to use a long blade in Spaceship combat, because if
>you crack a suit, you generally kill your man. However, to this end, light
>strong blades are preferred to avoid rotational/angular momentum problems
>with a huge windup from a heavy blade. Also you don't need to kill the man
>*in* the suit with your blow...you just need to pop it, or slice a hose, or
>open a wide gash in the fabric. Hence the sport fencing idea of *any hit is
>a kill* holds literally.


	Good point; hadn't thought of that...:)  Anyhow, it's late and I
have work to do...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 01:11:01 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness

... NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

At 02:19 PM 3/5/97 EST, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970302113324.006cb440@london.mis.slb.com>
>
><< The Spanish inquisition in Europe >>
>
>Well, I didn't expect that...!
>
>    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
>Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
> "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
>

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 97 00:11:05 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

Ken, I didn't like v1.1. But, I like v2.0. By Jove, I think you've done 
it! Finally no more pesky half-dice. Just one small calc that can be done 
before the game, and one (simple addition) during the game.

Heck, let's just do away with that first calc and say during character 
generation that each skill choice is worth 3 levels of skill... (I guess 
there is some heretic in me ;-) That might be a good thing for a new 
experience system... incremental advances of 1 to character "experience" 
as you called it.

You've given skills:attributes a 3:1 ratio, which imho is reasonable. If 
I understand correctly, KBv1.1 ratio was 4:1, which was a bit much, 
methinks.

>What I'm interested in here is to see if all of you are comfortable 
>with the mechanics involved with KBv2.0.  It's simple addition, but 
>you never know.  I can guarrantee that somebody here on the TML will 
>have a problem with it even though it solves all problems.

Mechanics are great. Couldn't be simpler, given your design parameters.

>I'm not going to list a lot of numbers here.  I will be doing that 
>later as I'm sure that I am going to have to defend KBv2.0 to some of 
>you before it is accepted.

Send me the numbers, and if convinced that the percentages are reasonable 
(the Plain Jane sample seemed sound), I will number among the converted!

>I still have to figure out a few periphial issues, like how to 
>calculate SS and SF based on this system, but the basics are solid.  
>I've done extensive number crunching to ensure that the percentages 
>come out close to the way they did under KBv1.1. 

I don't know which direction you're thinking of going with that, but I 
suggest keeping it simple. Say, three sixes means SF. Or three sixes and 
a failed throw.

For SS, maybe If the roll is less than the number of dice thrown + skill 
level, then Succeed Spectacularly? This makes SS ridiculously easy at the 
low end, (A Good Thing, imho, a skilled person *should* succeed 
spectacularly when handed the routine.) It also ties the chance for 
spectacular success to skill level, and not purely "luck of the roll".

eg. A skill-1 person needs all ones at all degrees of difficulty for SS
    A skill-2 person can afford one "2".
    A skill-6 person needs to roll less than "8" for an easy task, or "9" 
for an average task... etc.

I'll look more deeply into your system. On the surface though, it seems 
perfeito.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 01:25:22 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

Andrew Boulton writes:

<<    Still doesn't fly Keith.  Any planet orbiting around a M9d is
going
to be so cold that it wouldn't have a type 4-9 atmosphere.  Having a
type 4-9 atmosphere is a prerequisite for a planet to be classified as
Agricultural according to Book 6, MT, and TNE. >>
>
>Terraforming? Volcanism and/or meteor strikes warming it & thickening the 
>atmosphere? Tidal forces? Ya just gotta be more creative...

   But it still has to pass muster on the "BS" factor.  The farther you
go out on the believability scale, the more likely it is that someone,
usually a player who knows practical astrophysics (in other words not an
expert by any means) will stand up and yell "bullsh*t!" as you are
describing the planet to him or her.  

   Also, it just plain makes it harder to describe a world when you have
to resort to all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify every anomalous
stat off the UWP.  Better that the system to generate stats for star
systems give me believable numbers, and if I want an "exception to the
rule", I can create it myself.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 23:58:49 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

On 03/05/97 at 07:53 AM,  "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
said:

> If non six-sided users are heretics, what am I if I don't use *any* dice?

> Pagan or Atheist?

A lot like me, especially with my PBEM's...but don't tell the players. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 00:00:03 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: TNE Mailing List

On 03/05/97 at 10:07 AM,  Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu> said:

> The list is run by listproc@tower.clark.net
> I think you can subscribe by sending a subscribe message to the address.
> The mailing address of the list is  tne-rces@tower.clark.net

> If that doesn't work let me know, and I'll figure out how I subscribed to
> it. :)

How about telling me too. I've tried a couple of times and just got a
bounce.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 00:13:57 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

On 03/05/97 at 06:02 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

> <<    Still doesn't fly Keith.  Any planet orbiting around a M9d is going
> to be so cold that it wouldn't have a type 4-9 atmosphere.  Having a type
> 4-9 atmosphere is a prerequisite for a planet to be classified as
> Agricultural according to Book 6, MT, and TNE. >>

> Terraforming? Volcanism and/or meteor strikes warming it & thickening the
>  atmosphere? Tidal forces? Ya just gotta be more creative...

I tried Andrew, even offered a funny little game hook...got "serioused" so
I just dropped it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 01:35:54 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

Peter  H. Brenton asks: 

>If non six-sided users are heretics, what am I if I don't use *any* dice?
>
>Pagan or Atheist?

   Atheist clearly.  A pagan would flip a coin.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 00:12:19 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav

On 03/05/97 at 07:01 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

> No wonder there's so few female players in Traveller when most listers
> aren't even able to spell these words correctly: Female, Women.

You mean fems and woe-men? Babes? Dolls? Chicks? ;->

> BTW Weird is spelled weird not wierd as most(?) yanks seem to think.

Anders, that's because we were trained with the phrase, "i before e, except
after c", and we have trouble with exceptions.  Of course, there's always
"when 2 vowels go walking, the first does the talking", so "ei" is "erd"
and "ie" is "ird".  <g> Isn't English FUN?

One more thing..."who you calling a yank?!"

Eris,
  American by birth
  Southern by the grace of God  
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 01:57:02 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: A Problem with First Survey

Andrew Akins writes: 

>Open your copy of First Survey and look at the UWPs in the Referee's section.
>Here's the first couple...
>
>C474000-5
>A8C3988-B
>C356000-6
>B541111-6
>E864466-4
>E879000-5
>B354ACC-B
>
>At first glance, no problem. But if you look close you can see that the government
>and law level values (for the UWP impaired, the 6th and 7th values) are identical.
>In fact, as near as I can tell, the government and law level values for every planet
>in First Survey are identical.

   Sounds like they didn't fix that glitch that occured when the sector
stats were originally generated.  Problem with the software I
understand.  People have known about it for years--I know it was a point
of discussion among HIWG members when we talked about a project to
generate New Era/Imperial Era UWPs for all the worlds in the Imperium.

   I'm not sure what advise to give you at this point.  Re-generating
the stellar data is one thing, but all the law levels as well?  I guess
that's is your only option.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 02:00:57 -0500
From: "Dr. Vince" <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: resource fiction

At 06:27 PM 3/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>  What are some of yours,
>especially ones the rest of us might not think of?

Geez...tough question... I like all your resources...

In addition, I would add the following: (big IMHO's here)

1) Neuromancer/Count Zero/Mona Lisa Overdrive/Virtual Light/Burning Chrome
(I like cyberpunk fiction, especially William Gibson. Some people think it's
a character flaw.)

2) The Stainless Steel Rat books, especially the first story.

3) Modern techno-thrillers (Tom Clancy comes to mind, as well as Richard
Marcinko). I use this for military style ideas. (I run heavy military
games...lots of spies and specops types running around)

4) Ghost in the shell...Cyberpunk anime. Haven't seen it? rent it!! You'll
be glad you did. That is if you like that sort of thing.

5) Non-fiction resources. I try to read a lot of tech stuff, plus a steady
diet of Science and Nature (being a post-doc has some advantages). Guides to
phreaking/hacking/encrypting make for cool ideas for me. My PhD is in
Biochemistry, so I have a decent idea of what biotech is all about.

6) Non-period fiction: The characters in the Three Musketeers, Cyrano de
Bergerac, the Man in the Iron Mask, and other classic fiction transcend
genre and can be used extraordianrily well in Traveller.

7) Non-period history: I am interested in adapting some of my reading about
the cult of personality surrounding the Borgia anti-Popes (especially
Alexander 6) to Cleon I (Magnus).

That's a top of the head descriptor of what I use to generate
ideas...everything I see... :)

Vince
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Familiarity breeds contempt. People assume I am familiar with everything.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		The virginal brides
		file past his tomb
		strewn with strident flowers
		bereft in deathly bloom
		alone in a darkened room-the Count
		Bela Lugosi's dead.
			-Bauhaus, "Bela Lugosi's dead"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for His Infernal Majesty, is
drvince@ix.netcom.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1031
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 6 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1032



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Credit Cards (mine is not longish ;-) )
Re: Another review of M0
Traveller fetishists (was Re: Another review of M0)
Galanglic & High Sylean
Re: Traveller fetishists (was Re: Another review of M0)
Re: resource fiction
Re: acceleration in post-CT rules
Re: In-system campaign: economics?
Re: Ken Bearden's Task System & Experience
Re: Barbarian Career for T4
Buggered-up ASCII diagrams...
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)
Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)
Money & Credit in Traveller
Re: T4: Barbarian Career
Re: Buggered-up ASCII diagrams...
Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 02:05:39 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

Nice work, Kenneth! I've been looking at the probabilities your new version
generates, and they aren't bad at all, as far as I've checked.

I applaud the elimination of the half dice, and the simplicity of your
solution. I also notice you've opted for a 3:1 stat to skill ratio, which
just happens to be what I've finally settled on for the D66 system - so
we're in perfect agreement there.

I still object to throwing and adding buckets of dice as the Difficulty
rises, but 7D for Impossible is certainly preferable to 10D or some of the
other suggestions that have been made (jokingly and seriously).

If I hadn't (sort of) solved the Task problem to my own satisfaction with
the D66 system, I would certainly use your system. And I think Marc could
do worse than adopt it for future editions of T4.

A suggestion for the Spectacular Success and Failure problem: for each task
roll, make sure two of the dice are distinct from the others, either a
different color, or rolled separately - make these the critical die: two
ones on these dice is a SpecSuccess, two sixes a SpecFailure.

That's just off the top of my head, but I doubt there's a simpler solution.

I'd say KBv2.0 looks pretty good at first glance.

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 09:02:43 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: Credit Cards (mine is not longish ;-) )

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> 
> >From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
> 
> >In my campaigns, a "Credit Card" (actually a debit card in modern
> >terminology, but back in '78 I didn't even have an ATM card yet) was
> >a credit-card-sized computer, with a display, a few buttons, and a socket
> >(rather like a modern-day PCMCIA card, but with a display and buttons on
> >top).  One of the buttons was actually a fingerprint scanner (in most
> >models).
> >
> >The card itself contained a running balance (which could be displayed by
> >touching a button) of the money it carried.  THe money was actually "in" the
> >card - but it's the custom to "clear your card" periodically.  If the card
> >is lost or stolen the money is gone - BUT you can return to the issuing bank
> >and request an audit of the card - this will take a while, but eventually
> >you'll get your money back.  The more recently you've "cleared your card",
> >the quicker this audit process will be.
> 
>         In my campaigns, debit cards containing money also play a role, but

Well, I play it that way, too. Sure it has disadvantages, but there is
no better way of carrying cash from here to a system 4 parsecs away
instantly.

In my campaigns, I call them credit-crystals ('cause the information is
saved on a holo-crystal). They are in several ways electronically
secured (code, fingerprint a.s.o). They come with an adapter. If
somebody pays you money, he plugs his card in your cardadapter and books
the amount directly on your card.

Disadvantages:
1) You better don't lose your card, or your money is gone.
2) All electronic securities can be cracked.

But I'll take that for comfortability.

CYa
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:44:31 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Another review of M0

Rob wrote:

   >IMHO, this is the best SINGLE campaign resource for Traveller since
   >"The Traveller Adventure", and maybe the best ever.

   May I respectfully suggest you take a look at "The Long Way Home"?!


   > Every page is
   >chock full of adventures, rumors, and seeds for the enigmas, >gimmicks
   and patrons that every campaign needs to be fun. An >amazing amount of
   creativity went into every paragraph of this >sourcebook,

   granted.

   >my compliments to the authors!

   It's the smell of the book I really like.  I haven't worked out yet what
   it is or what it reminds me of, but I'm definitely an M0 sniffer.  (The
   inside pages not the cover)



   >3) Silly ideas. In a book with so many imaginative ideas, some
   >fraction of them are bound to be stupid or silly. Fortunately, these
   <snip>
   >silly or useless. Also, if you are running a comedic campaign, some
   >of the stupidest ideas will be the real gems for you. (If the
   exactly - does everything always have to be deadly serious?


   >P.S. M0 is a book that screams to be annotated.

   Arghh!  Sacrilege!

   tc
   timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 10:20:08 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Traveller fetishists (was Re: Another review of M0)

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:
> 
>    It's the smell of the book I really like.  I haven't worked out yet what
>    it is or what it reminds me of, but I'm definitely an M0 sniffer.  (The
>    inside pages not the cover)
> 

Pervert! ;-)

CyA
Buddy

p.s. Better check, that it doesn't harm your health!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 11:45:24 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Galanglic & High Sylean

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Anders, that's because we were trained with the phrase, "i before e, except
>after c", and we have trouble with exceptions.  Of course, there's always
>"when 2 vowels go walking, the first does the talking", so "ei" is "erd"
>and "ie" is "ird".  <g> Isn't English FUN?

        It's definitely NOT fun when you have to learn it from the beginning
as your third language, and you have no mind for languages like me...

        But thus just made me think.... hey, do we know what these guys at
Milieu Zero are speaking? IIRC, there was something called High Sylean
around, and I do not remember when and how Galanglic started to be the
official language of the Imperium. And, anyway, what are most of the worlds
talking? Modern Vilani? A mixture? (Certainly, the Geonee worlds speak
Irkonee <G>)
        Seems to me that, right after the Long Night, we can NOT safely
assume that there is a *main* language around. I see some worlds speaking
degenerated forms of Vilani mixed with Solomani languages, and all this
being confronted to the High Sylean brought by the new Imperial powers... in
a few centuries, it will all get mixed and we will have... ta-daaa....
Galactic! Ooops, sorry, Galanglic (in my heretic campaigns, English was
*not* a major language and Galactic is a mixture of Spanish and Vilani <G>)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:58:05 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Traveller fetishists (was Re: Another review of M0)

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:
>>
>>    It's the smell of the book I really like.  I haven't worked out yet
what
>>    it is or what it reminds me of, but I'm definitely an M0 sniffer.
(The
>>    inside pages not the cover)
>>


Harald resonded:
>Pervert! ;-)

I knew I should have kept my dark secret to myself.

>p.s. Better check, that it doesn't harm your health!

Health?  What health?  I'm Doug's apprentice pest.

tctimothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 02:55:18 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: resource fiction

I've two entries which I'm surprised no one else has mentioned:

Eluki Bes Shahar's Butterfly St. Syr trilogy:

_Hellflower_
_Darktraders_
_Archangel Blues_

The series is much fun and looks a *whole* lot like the Imperium.  This 
series focuses on the low-life smuggler fringe with a number of forays 
into the noble culture of the core.

David Trowbridge and Sherwood Smith's Exordium series:

_Phoenix in Flight_
_Ruler of Naught_
_A Prison Unsought_
_Rifter's Covenant_
and whatever the 5th book (unready by me so far) is called.

This series focuses primarily on war and noble with numberous forays into
life on the criminal fringe.  If anything, this series is even more like 
Traveller than the other one.


One interesting observation from reading both series.  Both of these series'
of books are space opera-like fiction updated for the modern day.  There 
is an awareness of the potentials of modern and future computer technologies,
human-computer interfaces and lots of similar stuff unheard of in similar 
50s-70s fiction (and these two series are better written to boot).  

Both series have huge empires, interstellar nobility, ancient technologies
of vast power, aliens, and the second series even has psionics which have
a very Traveller feel.  The resemblance between either series and the 
Imperium is truly amazing.

Anyway, one fascinating similarity shared by both books is that sentient
computers are fully possible, they can even be made much more intelligent
than a human.  However, in both universes making such computers is
*highly* illegal (as in capital crimes with no appeal if the masses don't
rip you apart first).  The reason in both cases being that such machines
were once made and they attempted to take over the known galaxy and had to
be fought off with great loss of life.  This type of war would go a long
way towards explaining why computers aren't a whole lot better than they
are in the Traveller universe (btw, these wars seemed nothing like the
Virus).  

In any case, either of these settings (or a combination of both) can be
adopted as a general model for the Imperium, and can add in a whole host
of details. 

As a final note, a few other books to look at:

_Angel Station_ by Walter Jon Williams

_Eon_, _Eternity_ & _Legacy_ by Greg Bear

& of course, Gregory Benford's wonderful Galactic Core series

_In the Ocean of Night_
_Across the Sea of Suns_
_The Great Sky River_
_Tides of Light_
_Furious Gulf_
_Sailing Bright Eternity_

Non of these books have setting very much like the Imperium, but they have
nifty ideas which can easily be lifted.  These books are all wonderful
sources for ideas about just how alien humanity and human cultures can
become in a high tech setting (as well as all being great reads). 

Happy Reading-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:17:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: acceleration in post-CT rules

In mail you write:

> Is the maximum acceleration of starships still limited to 6g as in CT?
>
> Because of what? Lacking technology for anti-grav compensators to protect  
> the crew? Then why no rockets exist which can accelerate with 10g or more?
>
> Even the terran Space Shuttle crew must endure 6g, military fighter (jets)  
> pilots about the same.

But mone of them do so for 10 minutes (old turn length) much less 30
minutes (new turn length). And it'd take a *lot* of fuel for any sort
of rocket to run at 10g for 10 minutes!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 22:21:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: In-system campaign: economics?

In mail you write:

> What would freight and passenger charges be for in-system
> transportation?  It seems a little steep to charge KCr10, for
> example, for a flight from a world to one of its satellites.  Has
> anyone worked on prices for in-system transport?

There are a number of things you can do "in-system" that won't work in
interstellar trade.

"Free transit"
	Any "bulk" cargo, especially one that there's no rush about
	delivering, can be stuck in a cargo pod (spaceproof box with a
	radar beacon and transponder). A tug will then boost the pod or
	a group of pods into a hohman transfer orbit for the other
	planet or satellite.  When it arrives at the other end (half an
	orbit later), another tug matches orbit, and then boosts the
	pod(s) into orbit around the destination.

	The course changes at each end are only a few km/sec, so it's a
	*very* cheap transport method. But it takes a lot of time. And
	you can only do it when the start and destination have the
	right relative positions (about once a local year for planet to
	planet transfers). As they move away from the ideal position,
	it takes more delta-v to inject the cargo into the transfer
	orbit. So the rates vary according to time of year.

	Hijacking is rarely a problem as there's no *legitimate* reason
	for a ship to match orbit with a cargo in transit. Sure, you
	can plot a jump, grab the pod and jump out. But that assumes
	the cargo is *worth* the trouble, and that you haven't grabbed
	a dummy pod set up to trap hijackers....

	For passengers, you just put a ship in transfer orbit and coast
	along.  In some places these trips are thought of as something
	"special", and there are large ships carrying thousands of
	passengers taking months to cross between planets. Most places,
	only the very broke will sign up, unless this is the best local
	tech can do.

Sails, solar and magnetic
	You can attach cargo pods to solar sails or magnetic sails with
	an autopilot. These are almost as cheap as free transit, and
	faster.  They're still kinda slow, but again, there's a *lot*
	of cargo where all that anybody cares about is that shipments
	arrive regularly, not how many loads are in transit at any
	given time. So rates are pretty steady regardless of the time
	of the local "year".

	Contrary to poular belief it *is* possible to "sail" a cargo
	*towards* the star. It's not even any real trick.

	Passengers vessels can use sails, but ahain, the trip length
	tends to count against it.

Constant boost ships
	For express cargos, and for passengers this is common when
	there's a reason for not doing a microjump. The ship boosts
	until halfway at constant g, then flips over and decelerates at
	the same rate.

	With thrusters it's an ok option. With a drive that requires
	reaction mass, it's *real* expensive unless the drive is *very*
	efficient.

Microjump
	We all know the rules and costs here.

Main use of constant boost will be in situations where it's possible to
cross the distance in less than a week, or where both ends of the trip
are inside the star's 100 diameter limit.

Unfortunately, figuring the orbits for "free transit" and the courses
for "sails" isn't simple, so unless someone writes a program for us,
we're kinda stuck. Besides, they are rather specialized. The only way a
PC ship would get involved would be as a tug, or as a hijack attempt,
and for those you can fudge the messy details.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 03:26:37 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Ken Bearden's Task System & Experience

> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 97 00:11:05 -0600
> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
> Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
> 
> Ken, I didn't like v1.1. But, I like v2.0. By Jove, I think you've done
> it! Finally no more pesky half-dice. Just one small calc that can be done
> before the game, and one (simple addition) during the game.
> 
> Heck, let's just do away with that first calc and say during character
> generation that each skill choice is worth 3 levels of skill... (I guess
> there is some heretic in me ;-) That might be a good thing for a new
> experience system... incremental advances of 1 to character "experience"
> as you called it.

	If you adapt the system that each skill choice is worth 3 levels of
skill but leave the experience system as it is you will have _also_
fixed the problems with it.  Since it will now take 3 times as many
rolls g(gaining 1 level at a time) to represent 1 level of skill the
experience system will no longer be _way_ too generous.  However if you
tripple the level used you may need to roll for each increse on 3d6 and
not 1d6.

	Consider a charecter with  Fast Talk at skill level 3 under the
standard system.  If he uses his Fast Talk he may get an experience
check.  Then he needs to roll a 3 or better on 1d6 and has a 66.7 %
chance of going up to skill level 4.  If he uses his Fast Talk again
next month he may get another check in it and will have a 50% chance of
going up to skill level 5.  If skill levels in generation are trippled
but each experience check is not then it will now take much longer to
rise in skill.  He will now have skill level 9 and 1 experience check
may gain him level 10, which is the same as level 3.33 under the
standard system. You will have cut the experience gain rate about 4
fold.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 07:45:13 -0500
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Barbarian Career for T4

Franklin W. Cain transmitted...

> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:36:57 -0500 (EST)
> From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
> Subject: T4: Barbarian Career
> 
> I came up with a career format for barbarian characters.  Here it is.  
<snipage>

> Comments?  
> 
> Franklin

Hmmm..., I like it!  You might want to ask Scott Galliand about his
Career Templates on his site, he might even want you to post it there. 
You will get credit for your creation.  Check it out at

http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/index.html

I was trying to come up with this career on my own, but with everything
else going on (Workwise, netwise, and clanwise) it got left on the back
burner.  Looks like you beat me to the punch. Good show! :)
- -- 
Commander X
(cmdrx@magicnet.net <or> bprankard@theiia.org)
Creator, Maintainor, and Webmeister of "Planet X"
(www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:55:24 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Buggered-up ASCII diagrams...

	Excuse me... I just noticed that somewhere down the line my lovely
ascii diagram of the parts of a sword blade got mangled... so here is the
revelavnt quote again, and hopefully the diagram will work.  In case it
doesn't the forte is the third or so of the blade closest to the hilt; the
foible is the third or so of the blade closest to the tip.

>
>
>	As well, let's not forget that the popular conception of a parry as
>interposing your blade across the arc of his swing in order to block it is
>somewhat limited... parries also include using leverage to deflect, not
>block, the attack, which is often a more effective thing to do, especially
>if your opponent's blade is much heavier and will therefore take more time
>to recover from the attack.
>
>	For non-fencers, look at the following diagram:
>
>	          |
>	  0======3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D-
>	          |
>
>                  ^               ^              ^                     ^
>                  | forte         |              | foible              |
>
>
>	Simply put, if I apply pressure upon the foible of his blade with
>the forte of my blade, I will enjoy a significant mechanical advantage; I
>will have better leverage with which to push his point off target.  In
>order to effectively parry an attack you don't have to stop it cold, just
>make sure it misses you.
>
>	Therefore, the popular image of the barbarian's broadsword smashing
>the noble's rapier might hold true if the noble were boneheaded and
>unskilled; a better image might be of the noble noting the impending cut,
>glancing at his watch, and rather than stupidly blocking it merely picking
>the barbarian's point up with his blade, sweeping it somewhat off-target,
>and then jamming his point through a tender portion of the barbarian's
>anatomy.  This would be most effective against a downwards cut to the head
>or shoulders (deflect sideways), or a high lateral cut (deflect over head).
>Lower lateral cuts should just be dealt with by a) stop cuts/thrusts or b)
>stepping out of the range of the swing and then feinting to the head...
>shield comes up, and then things get real fun; if he blinds himself with
>it, he deserves whatever is coming to him.  Or as you pointed out,
>out-feint him; flick your point up and down several times and then go for
>his sword arm as it swings back.


	You can try this at home, kiddies!  Take two yardsticks.  Have a
friend hold one pointing at your torso.  Take yours, and place yours
against his so that your forte and his foible are in contact.  Then move
his yardstick off to one side.  Let him try and use all the strength he
wants to...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 23:59:50 +1000
From: Scott & Isabell <bear.garden@c031.aone.net.au>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)

>Consider for a moment what a Marine has to learn in his training.  how to
>operate Battle Dress, the maitence and use of weapons ranging from the Gauss
>Rifle, to plasma weapons, up to tac missles.  How to sucessfully make a
>meterotic re-entry, both in a drop capsule and using a re-entry kit.
>Traditions and Regulations of the Naval Serivice.  I hardly think there
>would be *time* to teach swordplay!
>
But modern armies still teach marching drill don't they? Very few armies
actually march to war in ranks anymore.
The sword part could be a traditional thing and most armies like traditions.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 13:16:17 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

Mused wrote:
> 
> the trick is convincing the rest of the eggs that the extra space in the carton is a >positive thing.
- --Who said you were telling the rest of the eggs anything?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 13:16:24 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness (Not So Far Off Topic)

Mused wrote:
> 
> Neil Simpson wrote:
> > (boy, didn`t things go pear shaped for the Zho`s when the Empress Wave hit?)
> 
> What did you have the Empress Wave do?
- --It hasn`t done anything in my campaign yet,I haven`t got that
far.Which is why (bitch mode engaged)I`m waiting for IG to bring out
info on a real period,not this primitive excuse for a setting that they
call milieu 0.Where is the real Traveller?Where are the Aslan?Where are
the Zho`s?Where is the master-race(the Solomani)?

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  6 Mar 97 10:10:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Money & Credit in Traveller

> ObTrav:  how do you handle this sort of situation in your game?  Do you
> assume perfect encryption?  What if I'm Soc15 but my wealth is in another
> system several jumps away?  I played in one campaign that had banks
> (effectively ATMs) built as standard issue into most starships; you'd load
> them up from a master account while in port, and then have to live off of
> that (fairly secure) money until you got back.  This situation came up a
> lot historically, btw, which is why "letters of credit" from one bank to
> another (from London to Florence, say) were such a big deal.
    For the historical example, it was exactly this situation that prompted the
founding of American Express and its, at the time revolutionary, Travellers'
Cheques.  The Credit Card came later, much later. ;)
    But I would assume in Mileu 0 that this is a Serious problem in the just
founded Imperium.  This has always been a problem throughout the history of
human commerce.  Part of the historic reason you have Factors, Agents and
Offices in foreign ports/lands is so that you have resources THERE. ;) Very
important when you're expensive merchant ship limps into port having been
mauled by a storm and needs expensive repairs.
    This OC brings up another problem that Mileu 0 is going to have.  The
medium of exchange.  Oh sure, you the Far Trader captain would prefer your TL2
customers to pay you in Credits, but... until you showed up they'd never heard
of the Imperium before.  What are they going to pay you with to buy those fancy
weapons, tools and whatnots you're selling to them that you can get value for
back in the Imperium?  Reading up on the difficulties Spain and the other
European Colonial Powers had in getting Gold and other value out of their
colonies can be very revealing here. ;)

    Later on, past Mileu 0, I would think that the rising MegaCorporations
would step in to provide these highly profitable services.  Not just moving
money around but also guarenteeing monies held across Interstellar distances.
Mercenary Contracts come to mind in this regard, the Imperium it's self would
find these kinds of services too.  Thoughts?

> Anyone for "Count of Monte Christo", T4-style?  Probably some good
> adventures in that. :)
    Actually I've found that all the older classic adventure novels translate
wonderfully into the Traveller setting.  Ran the Prisoner of Zenda as a
campaign once back in my Classic Traveller days with the prelude of the Fifth
Frontier War as the backdrop and Zhodani agents having kidnapped the Duchess of
Mora and our one female player being her near identical twin!  Made for a WILD
run. <GRIN> Try translating the Three Musketeers sometime ;) or Treasure Island
(Asteroid!) or Around the World (Subsector) in 80 days or Hounds of the
Baskervilles!!! <GRIN>

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:14:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: T4: Barbarian Career

There really should be a 'Kingdom and beautiful princess' somewhere in the
mustering out table ;-)


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:10:37 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Buggered-up ASCII diagrams...

rellio wrote:

 >Excuse me... I just noticed that somewhere down the line my lovely
>ascii diagram of the parts of a sword blade got mangled... so here is >the
revelavnt quote again, and hopefully the diagram will work.  In >case it
doesn't the forte is the third or so of the blade closest to >the hilt; the
foible is the third or so of the blade closest to the >tip.


That looks better, but please, put me out my misery, what's the middle
third called?




>
>              |
>      0======3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D-
>              |
>
>                  ^^               ^^              ^^                     ^^
>                  | forte         |              | foible              |
>

Hmmm, looks like it begins with 'fo' and ends with 'e' and has either
2 or 3 letters between.
fondle
fondue
forage
forbye
force
forge
fosse
fovea

Of course, it must be 'fondue' as you can obviously use your sword a
second way after all that hard fighting.



>You can try this at home
 <snip>
>gainst his so that your forte and his foible are in contact.  Then >move
his yardstick off to one side.  Let him try and use all the >strength he
wants to...

Ouch!

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

"No, I haven't got anything better to do.  It's lunchtime."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:23:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins

> Favourite T4 weapon
> 
> Real Men: Broadswords (for their Noble characters)
> Roleplayers: Magnum Revolvers (for their Free Trader Captains)
> Loonies: Bats.

	But bats are particularly useless...they're light, very fragile,
don't see well in the daylight, and tend to go off chasing moths when you
throw them at things...

	On second thought, I guess that is a PERFECT loonie weapon ;-)

	And real men will fly a Moonshine-class smugglers ship...EVERYone
wants to be Han Solo these days...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1032
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 6 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1033



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins
Re: Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: Background Uber Alles...
Re: ID4 and Americans
Traveller computers (was Re: resource fiction)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1027
Re: T4: Barbarian Career
Re: Buggered-up ASCII diagrams...
Re: TNE Mailing List
RE: Melee Weapons, Reality, and why Marines use Long Blade
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1027
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"
Re: resource fiction
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1027
Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"   (Cutlass)
Re: resource fiction
Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins
Re: Focus of the List
Re: Focus of the List
Re: Focus of the List
Re: Wome in Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:36:58 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins

At 7:23 -0700 3/6/97, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>> Favourite T4 weapon
>>
>> Real Men: Broadswords (for their Noble characters)
>> Roleplayers: Magnum Revolvers (for their Free Trader Captains)
>> Loonies: Bats.
>
>	But bats are particularly useless...they're light, very fragile,
>don't see well in the daylight, and tend to go off chasing moths when you
>throw them at things...


	The bat thing was a subtle in-group reference to a particularly
traumatic incident back during a Vampire campaign set in the UK.  A certain
extremely undead, insane, and unpleasant NPC was tormenting a human PC,
played by Ross... at one point he woke up Ross's character while
brandishing a cricket bat, and demanded that he teach him how to play
cricket.  Once outside, they flipped for who bowled first... the vampire
won.  He proceeded to assume his stance, wind up, drop the ball, pull a
hand grenade out of his pocket, pulled the pin, and lobbed it at Ross's
character.

	Needless to say the vamp enjoyed the game immensely, and carried a
cricket bat about wherever he went from then on.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:40:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
> 	And before I go back to work, I should also add that AFAIK real
> broadswords and shields are considerably heavier than the recycled stop
> signs and tarted-up rattan canes the SCA fighters pack.  This makes SCA
> fighting somewhat dubious IMHO as a test-bed for the sort of comparison
> you're making.

	There's a lot of misconceptions floating around here. Those old
broadswords and two handers, etc, are NOT just giant lumps of cold iron! A
survey, for instance, of the known examples of Viking longswords, averages
them out to about 3 pounds each, considerably lighter than the cheapo
replicas you find all over the place. Also, they were well balanced.

	Ceremonial wepons and armor were heavy and cumbersome, but real
working swords weren't. The height of two-handed swordfighting technique
and construction occured in Elizabethan times, the province of the
Landsknecht (sp) Swiss merc's who would wade in with these huge light
things and chop people up from 4 1/2 feet away. Two handers were such a
big thing, that significant chunks of the fencing manuals of the day were
devoted to offensive and defensive techniques with two handed swords. 

	I have a catalog, which curse me, I can't find right now, from a
company called Museum Replicas, Ltd. (I think) which makes REAL swords.
(The sword Mel Gibson was flinging about in Braveheart may have been made
by them, at least they sell a close, if not exact replica) and it doesn't
weigh no 14 pounds!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 01:38:03 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

Anders Backman wrote:

> Terran organisms adapt from their warm and fuzzy beginnings be it in the
> oceans or mud or whatever. If the planet was really cold to start with the
> antifreeze HAD to be in the water from the start, otherwise no primitive
> organisms could have started being waterbased. 

What about the ocean bottom life centred around volcanic vents. I could
see that life could develop around these, and not need great amounts of
antifreeze in the water.

And even if the world was not volcanic, cold conditions does not
preclude the existance of life, the basic chemical reactions still take
place, but at a much slower rate. The early evolutionary period could
have been filled with organisms with incredibly slow metabolisms.

Natuarlly, the organisms that evolve faster metabolisms have an abundant
slow moving food source.

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 01:48:02 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Background Uber Alles...

William F. Hostman wrote:

> 
> Hmmm... When do we get back the REAL traveller Background: 1050-1115???
> 

no... 1192 - 1204 !!!  The REALLY real background

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:06:53 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: ID4 and Americans

Zhodani agents report that Mused wrote:

- -> I forgot to mention based on your last post re: Germany vs Scientology 
- -> 
- -> Tell your government to keep up the good work
Thanks, i will! 
"Someone has to stop them - if we don't, who will?"
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 07:23:22 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Traveller computers (was Re: resource fiction)

Thanks for the many cool books.  As I keep saying to my wife, "it's not
that we have too many books, we just don't have enough bookshelves."  Looks
like soon it'll be time to buy some new shelves again. :)

At 02:55 AM 3/6/97 -0800, John R. Snead wrote:
>Anyway, one fascinating similarity shared by both books is that sentient
>computers are fully possible, they can even be made much more intelligent
>than a human.  However, in both universes making such computers is
>*highly* illegal (as in capital crimes with no appeal if the masses don't
>rip you apart first).  The reason in both cases being that such machines
>were once made and they attempted to take over the known galaxy and had to
>be fought off with great loss of life.  This type of war would go a long
>way towards explaining why computers aren't a whole lot better than they
>are in the Traveller universe (btw, these wars seemed nothing like the
>Virus).  

The limited abilities of computers in Traveller has always bugged me, as it
seems to still have too much of a 1970s "big-iron" feel to it.  OTOH, the
plot device you mention -- that computers' abilities are limited by law and
custom rather than soley by technology -- is also central to "Dune" (thus
the Mentats), and could be used well here.  

It occurs to me that we currently live in a society with truly enormous
firepower, and yet individual citizens and corporations are strictly
limited in how big a bang they can legally make.  Maybe the same analogy
holds true for computers in an informational way: computers represent
informational "firepower", so, just as physical weapons are limited today,
in a future society informational power is similarly limited.  In fact this
_does_ happen today, with the US heavily restricting how powerful of a
computer you can export.  

And like any good game-rationalization, this opens up all kinds of cool
scenarios: consider the players getting tangled in a situation that is a
combination of "Hyperion" and "Neuromancer" and even "Tron" -- finding a
planets-spanning truly artificially intelligent computer system that has,
say, managed to gain not only clandestine citizenship but even control of a
small but powerful megacorp.  They might be contracted to discover who is
really at the head of this corp, or they might be contracted by the corp
and find this out as they go on, or they might be contracted to run an
Imperial Interdiction on the system (from within or without) for various
reasons, or, naturally, they might have to infiltrate and shut down the
computer system.  If you take this far enough, it could even resemble
"Paranoia". :)

Anyway, I think I know now how I'll explain the limitations on computers,
and why it is various government agents (Turing Commission folks :) ) come
sniffing around every time you try to do that odd little upgrade to your
ship's computer. 

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 10:31:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1027

JOE,

    Can we get details as to what's in the new T4 hardback (besides errata
fixes, new task rules)?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 16:37:41 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: T4: Barbarian Career

I haven't got this. Where can I find it?

TIA
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 10:38:27 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Buggered-up ASCII diagrams...

Timothy Collinson wrote:

>
>rellio wrote:
>
> >Excuse me... I just noticed that somewhere down the line my lovely
>>ascii diagram of the parts of a sword blade got mangled... so here is >the
>revelavnt quote again, and hopefully the diagram will work.  In >case it
>doesn't the forte is the third or so of the blade closest to >the hilt; the
>foible is the third or so of the blade closest to the >tip.
>
>
>That looks better, but please, put me out my misery, what's the middle
>third called?
>
>
>


	Beats hell out of me.  I forget, and my reference materials are
packed away somwhere :).  Damn.  Now I'm getting annoyed by it too...  I
think that the Encyclopaedia Britannica's 1964 edition had a good diagram
with all the relevant bits in it, but that's back at my mother's place...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:46:06 GMT
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: TNE Mailing List

>>I'm afraid I tend to agree with Volker.  In fact I was about to
>>suggest a seperate TNE mailing list anyway for those of us who know the
>>ending of the movie "Third Imperium", and would like to discuss the
>>future of the Traveller universe from the year 1130 or so forward beyond
>>the premature end of the TNE storyline.  
>
>There is already at TNE mailing list, it gets very little traffic.  I
>think the last message was several weeks ago.  I think most of the
>discussions on TNE take place here on the TML.  You could bring a
>discussion there. I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.  
>
>The list is run by listproc@tower.clark.net
>I think you can subscribe by sending a subscribe message to the
>address. The mailing address of the list is  tne-rces@tower.clark.net
>
>If that doesn't work let me know, and I'll figure out how I subscribed to
it. :)

Thanks, I'm subscribing right now!

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Sligos Marben.
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 09:52:02 -0600 (CST)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: RE: Melee Weapons, Reality, and why Marines use Long Blade

At Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:46:02 -0600, Doc Vince wrote:


<disclaimer>
Not only am I (well I *was*) a sabre fencer, but I also used to routinely
paste SCAdian fencers and stickjocks when we could agree on rules*
</disclaimer>
        
         No kidding?  What did you use to simulate your sabre?  And what
were the rules? 

        <Mike's disclaimer>
        15 years historical fencing (rapier, main gauche, cloak), kenjutsu,
some SCA, live-steel fight choreography
        at Renaissance Faires (everything from dagger to sword-and-shield to
two-handed sword)
        <Mike's diclaimer>
    
First problem: Assuming Imperial standard armament development akin to what
we have in the 20th century, show me the unit that routinely kits its
troopers with shields in anything more than archaic full dress. I submit
that they don't. Shields are big, unweildy, and and detract from the amount
of ammunition or the weapons you can carry.

        I agree completely.  Shields are handy for very specific modern
situations, like riot control.  Even assuming that one is making use of
advanced materials in the construction of a shield, to make it light enough
to use and carry effectively almost by definition makes it too light to stop
a modern projectile, much less a TL 12 laser.

Second problem: Shields are a good equalizer, but no one is going to take on
a barbarian with long blade and shield if he has a pistol or small arm at
hand. If he *doesn't* have a firearm at hand, the fencer can *still* paste
the barbarian, by applying the advantage that fencing gives you, namely
speed and distance. The barbarian is always trying to get up close to you.
All you need to do is keep him at a distance.

        If you have put this tactic to the test, then you either have the
very rare ability to run backwards as fast as you can run forwards, or you
have fought alarmingly slow opponents.  A good-sized shield, properly used,
will protect a fighter's torso and leading leg down to the knee.  A rushing
swordsman will move about one-and-a-half times faster forwards than his
opponent can move backwards, on the average.  This negates distance pretty
fast, and besides, unless the shield fighter is using a rather short weapon,
most broadswords have a length of three feet, giving a fencer at best only a
few inches advantage, plus whatever the length of his arm may yield.  In
short, keeping your opponent at a distance sounds great on paper, but it is
a lot harder in practise.  If you have a tactic that makes this routinely
possible I commend your skill and would really love to learn how to do it.
        I do agree though, that if I am confronted with a sword-wielding
barbarian while I carry a pistol, I would just shoot the guy in the foot and
walk away.

While I will submit that hitting someone at the exteme range of your blade
makes for shallow and usually non-life threatening wounds, they hurt like
hell, throw off your opponents attacks, and hinder his movement. That is
usually good enough to allow for an opening to either escape or to do some
*real* damage once the opposing blade is taken care of.

        Er, please define "extreme range of your blade".  Ideally, you want
to hit your target with the extreme four inches of your blade on slashing or
chopping attacks, because that is the surface area that yields the most
force on impact.  A sword works basically like a lever- the longer it is,
the more force can be generated at the ends.  Admittedly, a fencing sabre
would do far less damage with its extreme four inches than a broadsword,
because it has half (or less) than the broadsword's mass, leading to
comparatively superficial damage.  Note that I say comparatively- you can
still do a lot of damage with a fencing sabre if used with precision.

Your barbarian with his 7kg sword is swinging it a *lot*
slower than me with my 2.5 kilo sabre. As he swings, I slice the tendons in
his arm, he drops his heavy and now useless weapon and has to hide behind
his sheild.

        Er, no.  This is an overused fiction propagated by the Conan films.
The heaviest fighting blade I ever held was a fifteenth-century German
two-handed sword.  It was five-and-a-half feet long and weighed eleven
pounds. With the counterweight supplied by its pommel it was a surprisingly
fast weapon for its size.  Most broadswords of three feet length and a
three-inch wide blade weigh no more than three to four pounds.  My weapon of
choice, a four-foot hand-and-a-half, weighs only four pounds.  A cavalry
sabre weighs about two pounds, a fencing sabre much less.  Without doubt,
you would have a speed advantage over the broadsword, and targeting his
swordarm is a very smart tactic, but he will be moving a lot faster than you
have portrayed above.  If you are fast enough to duck out of the reach of
his swing and then dart back in to cut his arm, then he deserves his fate. 

I can now stand well out of the way of any clumsy shield punch (which is
most often an untrained desperation maneuver) and cut the leg tendons, the
head, or anyplace else that the shield can't cover. Also, my sabre moves a
hell of a lot faster than his shield, which means I can feint him out of his
shorts and hit anyplace I really choose.

        Can't argue there.  IF you can avoid being clobbered by his attack,
and IF your opponent is not foolish enough to expect that you would attack
his arm, and IF you hit the arm well enough to incapacticate it, and IF at
this point he doesn't decide to charge at you with the shield and flatten
you to the ground (don't knock desperation tactics- I've seen them work more
often than you would think), then yes, he is doomed.
>
>I have yet to see *any* version of Traveller which takes this into
>account.  Another disadvantage to the fencer is the relative strength of
>the blades.  Consider the following example:
>
>Sir Fop: "I parry your clumsy slash!"  
>
><SFX: broadsword shatters sabre>

With proper distance (which is the best parry) you needn't worry about this.
However, with modern alloys your example is still not valid, unless the
steel in the sabre is too brittle. A modern composite blade (akin to Toledo
steel) won't shatter like you suggest.

        Please explain "proper distance".  If you're too far back to be hit,
then your opponent has a problem with depth perception.  One has to assume
that your opponent wants to hit you, and will maneuver into striking range.
From there, you can either attack, duck, move back, or try to parry.  A
fencing sabre will not parry a broadsword.  The end result is that the
lighter blade gets slapped aside, or worse, it gets bent back and strikes
the wielder's body as well as the opponent's sword.  (I've seen this happen
several times.)

Again, this is irrelevant given the speed of my attack with the sabre. Your
star-faring barbarian and his nifty shield are still going to assume that I
am committed to one attack, when really I am waiting for my true target. In
fact if you can see me through your shield you might be at a disadvantage,
because you are convinced that there is *no way* I could alter my attack.

        Only if the barbarian was really, really stupid.   It's common sense
to figure that someone wielding a very light, fast sword would have much
more control over his blows, leading to a lot of probes and feints.  I
submit, sir, that your analysis of this combat is far too simplistic.  From
my experience, a very skilled fencer could defeat a sword-and-shield
wielding opponent with a bit of luck, but between two opponents of equal
skill and dexterity, the barbarian has the advantages of a more powerful
weapon and better armor coverage versus the fencer's speed.  If the
barbarian is careful and observant and plays on his strengths, he will kill
the fencer.  

The Marines are far more than the descendents of your Imperial Noble's
lackeys. They were a corps of free men, trained and devoted to the service
of a government. The Marines are a unit, with esprit, not merely a
collection of professional bodyguards. The reason that they still train with
the cutlass is two-fold:

1) Tradition from ancient wet ship boarding actions.

2) It is still useful to use a long blade in Spaceship combat, because if
you crack a suit, you generally kill your man. However, to this end, light
strong blades are preferred to avoid rotational/angular momentum problems
with a huge windup from a heavy blade. Also you don't need to kill the man
*in* the suit with your blow...you just need to pop it, or slice a hose, or
open a wide gash in the fabric. Hence the sport fencing idea of *any hit is
a kill* holds literally.

        Plus the fact that there are lots of components on a starship that
don't hold up well to bullets or lasers.  Stray shots can damage consoles,
sever power conduits, and the like.  In one game I ran, the players boarded
a vessel with the intent of capturing it, but in the course of a brief
firefight on the bridge, managed to shoot many holes in the helm and
astrogation consoles, plus sever the data link to the ship's computer. 

Mike Lee

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:04:15 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1027

Zhodani agents report that Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

- -> JOE,
- -> 
- ->     Can we get details as to what's in the new T4 hardback (besides errata
- -> fixes, new task rules)?
I second that call for further info! What will we see and when 
(approx.)?

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 10:13:01 -0600 (CST)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"

On  Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:11:35 -0500, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

Simply put, if I apply pressure upon the foible of his blade with
the forte of my blade, I will enjoy a significant mechanical advantage; I
will have better leverage with which to push his point off target.  In
order to effectively parry an attack you don't have to stop it cold, just
make sure it misses you.

	Therefore, the popular image of the barbarian's broadsword smashing
the noble's rapier might hold true if the noble were boneheaded and
unskilled; a better image might be of the noble noting the impending cut,
glancing at his watch, and rather than stupidly blocking it merely picking
the barbarian's point up with his blade, sweeping it somewhat off-target,
and then jamming his point through a tender portion of the barbarian's
anatomy.  This would be most effective against a downwards cut to the head
or shoulders (deflect sideways), or a high lateral cut (deflect over head).
Lower lateral cuts should just be dealt with by a) stop cuts/thrusts or b)
stepping out of the range of the swing and then feinting to the head...
shield comes up, and then things get real fun; if he blinds himself with
it, he deserves whatever is coming to him.  Or as you pointed out,
out-feint him; flick your point up and down several times and then go for
his sword arm as it swings back.

        Er, no, sir, that wouldn't work.  Your use of the riposte depends on
your opponent having a weapon of equal weight.  The broadsword would be two
to three times heavier, even though we're only talking about a pound for the
sabre and three pounds for the broadsword.  It makes a big difference.  Like
your earlier yardstick analogy, when the opponent attempts to press against
your parry, his stick will flex before it can generate enough force to drive
you back.  The same would happen with your sabre versus the broadsword- the
fencing sabre will flex before it can generate enough force to deflect the
broadsword's thrust significantly.  Trust me- I've got the scars to prove it.

Mike Lee

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 08:15:11 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: resource fiction

I just finished re-reading Elizabeth Moon's trilogy about Heris 
Serrano.. _Hunting Party_, _Sporting Chance_, _Winning Colors_.
Which is set in a VERY Traveller universe.  The only glaring
difference is that Jump appears to take "no" time.  Which allows
use of micro-jumps in combat.  One real cute item is the depiction 
of a long space battle where they have to avoid their own LOS 
weapons during these jumps...  Good read (B+).

Douglas McCorison

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 10:29:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1027

On Thu, 6 Mar 1997 Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

>     Can we get details as to what's in the new T4 hardback (besides errata
> fixes, new task rules)?

As far as I know, Marc is handling that.  Since he reads this list, 
perhaps he will share the info with us.  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 09:21:59 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

I believe a large portion of the population isn't going to care about
Cleon's morals, or lack of same, simply because they aren't being affected.

People tend to follow the money, and the new Imperium is making people rich.
Just look at our ISBA.. ship builders coming out of everywhere to take
advantage of the sudden need for new ships.  New markets on every frontier,
a "silk road" of sorts to Vland.. Your average man-in-the-street isn't going
to look much farther than his bank account and the new air/raft in the garage.

I'm a regular on alt.conspiracy, and those are the people who will notice
the deaths, the sudden departure of nobles to the frontier, etc.
Unfortunatley, most alt.conspiracy-type are either too paranoid, or have
some form of predjudice, so that the truths they uncover are dismissed.

My new campaign is a Mission: Impossible style game, with the players being
a op-team for the BIA.  It will be interesting to see how low they'll be
willing to go for the Emperor.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 09:22:05 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"   (Cutlass)

At 11:59 PM 3/6/97 +1000, Scott wrote:
>
>>Consider for a moment what a Marine has to learn in his training.  how to
>>operate Battle Dress, the maitence and use of weapons ranging from the Gauss
>>Rifle, to plasma weapons, up to tac missles.  How to sucessfully make a
>>meterotic re-entry, both in a drop capsule and using a re-entry kit.
>>Traditions and Regulations of the Naval Serivice.  I hardly think there
>>would be *time* to teach swordplay!

>But modern armies still teach marching drill don't they? Very few armies
>actually march to war in ranks anymore.
>The sword part could be a traditional thing and most armies like traditions.

The point of Drill and Ceremony training is to teach disipline.  Marching in
formation is harder than it looks, and the relentless drilling teaches the
new soldier how to obey orders quickly.  We still march to the motor pool,
or to the airfield.  Marching in ranks in a great way to get hundreds (or
thousands) of men and their equipment from point A to point B with minimal
confusion.

In the US Military, only the Marine Corps actually teaches sword drill, and
then it isn't for combat, it is a ceremonial thing.  I doubt if most Marine
Officers or NCOs would be able to use their swords in combat.  IIRC, you
have to reach E-6 (Staff Sergeant) before you even carry a sword while in
dress uniform.

In my game, the first skill learned in the Marines isn't Long Blade, it's
Battle Dress, a much more useful skill.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 09:30:48 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: resource fiction

Oh, how could I have forgotten Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin series?
True, these take place in the early 19th century British Navy, but the feel
of it, and the ability to lift ideas and characters has got to be there.
Hmmm.  Maybe it's time to reread them already. :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 09:45:17 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins

At 08:22 PM 3/5/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Favourite T4 weapon

>Loonies: Bats.

Fruit or Vampire?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 97 18:24 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

In-Reply-To: <331A4D6C.18F4@siscom.net>

<<  No, I fear that the Traveller universe is in general a
truly male dominated culture where the women are only mildly attractive
and stay out of the way.  No wonder Norris was AC only. >>

I rather liked Margaret. And Dulinor's daughter (name?) was a major 
babe!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 97 18:24 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970302210344.00690cb8@pop.ricochet.net>

<< OTOH, I think the IG crew would do very well to do things that
will engage women *players* such as making attractive women in the game (no
battledress bikinis, please). >>

On that subject, how many women do we have here on the TML?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 97 18:24 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970302210344.00690cb8@pop.ricochet.net>

<< OTOH, I think the IG crew would do very well to do things that
will engage women *players* such as making attractive women in the game (no
battledress bikinis, please). >>

On that subject, how many women do we have here on the TML?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 97 18:25 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Wome in Traveller

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970304181749.20252D-100000@supreme>

<< For those that haven't played with a 'girl player' before - I thoroughly 
recommend it, but you'd better be prepared for quality character interaction 
rather than plain old combat rolling. >>

True. And whatever you do, don't make 'em angry...they really are deadlier 
than the male...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1033
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 6 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1034



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Melee Weapons, Reality, and why Marines use Long Blade
Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Another review of M0
Re: Buggered-up ASCII diagrams...
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"
Re: Jump retrofits (digest 964!)
Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)
Re: The D66 Task System (was 2D TS)
Re: Another review of M0
Women players in Traveller
Trav on IRC
TNE-RCES Mailing LIst
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Battle Dress
Re: Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's
Re: Focus of the List
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
RE: Blunt Trauma Damage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 12:46:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Doctor Vince <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Melee Weapons, Reality, and why Marines use Long Blade

At 09:52 AM 3/6/97 -0600, you wrote:
>        <Mike's disclaimer>
>        15 years historical fencing (rapier, main gauche, cloak), kenjutsu,
>some SCA, live-steel fight choreography
>        at Renaissance Faires (everything from dagger to sword-and-shield to
>two-handed sword)
>        <Mike's diclaimer>

wow... far more experience than I, but even still, a few comments... :)

>        If you have put this tactic to the test, then you either have the
>very rare ability to run backwards as fast as you can run forwards, or you
>have fought alarmingly slow opponents.

Actually with training on the piste, I find that with a couple of years
experience, you are nearly as far backwards as forwards. Of course I haven't
tested this in any sort of "real combat", but according to theory, by moving
back and forth you constrain your opponent to straight line maneuvers. I
used to be pretty fast moving backward. I was certainly as fast as the
SCAdians I was playing with. They were often encumbered by the shield. That
may imply that they didn't know how to use it.

>  A good-sized shield, properly used,
>will protect a fighter's torso and leading leg down to the knee.  

Granted, but if I cut the side of the shin. I am going to reduce the
low-tech fighters mobility drastically.

>  In
>short, keeping your opponent at a distance sounds great on paper, but it is
>a lot harder in practise.  If you have a tactic that makes this routinely
>possible I commend your skill and would really love to learn how to do it.

Distance is only part of the equation. I often found that displacing the
opponent's weapon also worked well, and that it was usually a good tactic to
displace and cut the weapon arm. By our rules that was a disable. In terms
of "Real Life", YMMV.

>        Er, please define "extreme range of your blade".  Ideally, you want
>to hit your target with the extreme four inches of your blade on slashing or
>chopping attacks, because that is the surface area that yields the most
>force on impact.

In my experience, people who are using big weapons like to get up close and
personal, far beyond the top third of the blade on striking the opponent.
This may be due to a lack of experience in handling the blade. I think
fencers have a better instinctive grasp of the distance concept.

>        Er, no.  This is an overused fiction propagated by the Conan films.
>The heaviest fighting blade I ever held was a fifteenth-century German
>two-handed sword.  It was five-and-a-half feet long and weighed eleven
>pounds. With the counterweight supplied by its pommel it was a surprisingly
>fast weapon for its size.

I accept your correction.

>  If you are fast enough to duck out of the reach of
>his swing and then dart back in to cut his arm, then he deserves his fate. 

As I said above, distance is only part of the equation. It is very possible
to control the opponent's blade by keeping yours in contact with it.

>        Can't argue there.  IF you can avoid being clobbered by his attack,
>and IF your opponent is not foolish enough to expect that you would attack
>his arm, and IF you hit the arm well enough to incapacticate it, and IF at
>this point he doesn't decide to charge at you with the shield and flatten
>you to the ground (don't knock desperation tactics- I've seen them work more
>often than you would think), then yes, he is doomed.

Well, desperation tactics do work pretty well sometimes. However, there is
no way that the broadswordsman can attack without leaving *something*
vulnerable. Most often (and again, I find it common when someone is relying
on a shield) this is the sword arm. Often it is the face as well, which
would really suck...

>  A
>fencing sabre will not parry a broadsword.  The end result is that the
>lighter blade gets slapped aside, or worse, it gets bent back and strikes
>the wielder's body as well as the opponent's sword.  (I've seen this happen
>several times.)

I suppose a clarification is in order. The sabre I am envisioning for my
thinking would be something akin to the USMC dress sabre...maybe a bit
heavier, with a basket hit. The blade would taper from  5 cm at the hilt to
3 cm at the tip (chisel pointed? maybe...). It would *certainly* be heavier
and stiffer than the average fencing sabre.

A light blade *can* parry a broadsword, applying it's force at the upper
third of the broadsword. A swift chop here takes the broadsword out of line.
If you are not afraid of contact, now would be the time to step in
corps-a-corps and shoulder the shield-bearer, knocking him off balance. If
you are afraid of contact, once the broadsword is out of line, chop wrist,
elbow, cheek or crown, as the target warrants.

>        Only if the barbarian was really, really stupid.   It's common sense
>to figure that someone wielding a very light, fast sword would have much
>more control over his blows, leading to a lot of probes and feints.  I
>submit, sir, that your analysis of this combat is far too simplistic.  From
>my experience, a very skilled fencer could defeat a sword-and-shield
>wielding opponent with a bit of luck, but between two opponents of equal
>skill and dexterity, the barbarian has the advantages of a more powerful
>weapon and better armor coverage versus the fencer's speed.  If the
>barbarian is careful and observant and plays on his strengths, he will kill
>the fencer.  

I have to respectfully disagree. At this point I don't want to have the
conversation devolve into "can not/can too", but let me at least explain my
rationale.

First point: I am modeling the barbarian and his behavior from low-tech
Terra. I don't think that (IMHO) a barbarian (or hell, even a French
chevalier c.1100) is going to be  tarined or capable of handling the
fencer's speed or control of target. Thus I don't see how he could "figure
that...a very light fast sword would have much more control." I mean he is a
barbarian after all. If his planet has never had the need to develop light
weapons and no armor (ie no post-Italian Renaissance tech) how would he have
this experience? I submit he wouldn't. That's why I could beat even
experienced stickjocks, because I was playing against their inexperience of
what I was capable of. This idea of inexperience is an untestable
supposition, so if you disagree, I can't offer further logic to convince you.

Secondly, I don't assume the extremnely light fencing weapons, but instead a
more "Napoleonic" or "American Civil War" style sabre, not as light as you
might be thinking, but still far more agile than your average broadsword.
The combination of non-trivial wounding (to an exposed weapon arm) and the
weight to effectively displace the broadsword (at the upper third of the
blade) makes the sabre (and the fencer) the better choice in my opinion.

Anyhow, that was my thinking on the subject...

Vince 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Familiarity breeds contempt. People assume I am familiar with everything
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	"The passion of lovers is for death..."
				Bauhaus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for His Infernal Majesty, is :
		drvince@ix.netcom.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:47:05 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins

On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 08:22 PM 3/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Favourite T4 weapon
> 
> >Loonies: Bats.
> 
> Fruit or Vampire?

Re. bats
I believe Aslan nobles practice something very similiar to falconry
with large, predatory bats (with poisonous talons, no less), instead
of birds.  This tidbit turned up in an old issue of the J.T.A.S.

                                                        - J. Raynor 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 13:49:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

   Hi.

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> Consider for a moment what a Marine has to learn in his training.  how to
> operate Battle Dress, the maitence and use of weapons ranging from the Gauss
> Rifle, to plasma weapons, up to tac missles.  How to sucessfully make a
> meterotic re-entry, both in a drop capsule and using a re-entry kit.
> Traditions and Regulations of the Naval Serivice.  I hardly think there
> would be *time* to teach swordplay!

   Seems like you view the marines as His Majesty's special forces, and
   have a fairly high opinion of them. But (given Traveller's roots) it
   may be possible to compare them to the old US and royal marines from
   the age of sail, where they maintained discipline and order on board
   ships, in ports, and at bases. They may be essentially "cops with
   swords" (as opposed to truncheons, flashlights, or tranq spray). And
   I could see a nobleman or government servant might keep a few around
   for protection. Or I could see how Cleon might use them in place of
   regular troops to fight a particularly usavory little war that he
   wanted to keep out of the limelight. Skilled? Maybe not, but
   bloodthirsty! And /always/ faithful.

   Just an alternative way of looking at things.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 14:17:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Another review of M0

   Hi.

> From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk

>> IMHO, this is the best SINGLE campaign resource for Traveller since
>> "The Traveller Adventure", and maybe the best ever.

> May I respectfully suggest you take a look at "The Long Way Home"?!

   I would LOVE to take a look at the "Long Way Home". When is it coming
   to North America? When, when, when?

> It's the smell of the book I really like.  I haven't worked out yet what
> it is or what it reminds me of, but I'm definitely an M0 sniffer.  (The
> inside pages not the cover)

   You are a dangerous weirdo. Keep up the good work!

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:04:34 -0000
From: "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Buggered-up ASCII diagrams...

- --
Dominic Reynolds                       
                                                         
nz19@dial.pipex.com              


> 
> 	You can try this at home, kiddies!  Take two yardsticks.  Have a
> friend hold one pointing at your torso.  Take yours, and place yours
> against his so that your forte and his foible are in contact.  Then move
> his yardstick off to one side.  Let him try and use all the strength he
> wants to...
> 
Wear a mask if you do try this.

Not a Zorro mask

A fencing mask.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:21:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Doctor Vince <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"

At 10:13 AM 3/6/97 -0600, you wrote:
>        Er, no, sir, that wouldn't work.  Your use of the riposte depends on
>your opponent having a weapon of equal weight.  The broadsword would be two
>to three times heavier, even though we're only talking about a pound for the
>sabre and three pounds for the broadsword.  It makes a big difference.  Like
>your earlier yardstick analogy, when the opponent attempts to press against
>your parry, his stick will flex before it can generate enough force to drive
>you back.  The same would happen with your sabre versus the broadsword- the
>fencing sabre will flex before it can generate enough force to deflect the
>broadsword's thrust significantly.  Trust me- I've got the scars to prove it.

Mike,

(please take this in the jovial spirit in which it is offered)

Did you want us to use a sport sabre against a broadsword? :)

Even if you wanted to use a sport weapon (and I reiterate that the weapons
Roderick and I are thinking of are heavier and have considerably less flex),
consider an epee. Barbarian comes in, makes a cut to the head or flank, you
sweep the *trailing* edge of the broadsword (ie in the direction the
barbarian is swinging), bringing yourself into prime parry. Now the
barbarian weapon is trapped outside, the shield is likewise held away *by
the barbarian's own weapon arm*, and you drive the point through the
barbarian's wide washboard stomach, pushing the case-hardened tip of your
weapon through his soft steel belly-plate.

The difference in weight is not as great as you are envisioning (at least in
what I would consider a "sabre"), so with physics on your side, you
shouldn't have a problem with your weapon bending.

Vince
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Familiarity breeds contempt. People assume I am familiar with everything
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	"The passion of lovers is for death..."
				Bauhaus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for His Infernal Majesty, is :
		drvince@ix.netcom.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:35:00 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Re: Jump retrofits (digest 964!)

Lost my serial port for a fortnight, so I'm only just catching up:

Robert Flammang wrote:

"Also, the jump tug (described in Supplement 9, CT) can actually tow bulk
ore (which presumably does not come with a lanthanum grid installed) and
non-star ships  through jump space. Supplement 9 does not mention any
possible problems caused by this."

I recall that the picture in Fighting Ships (sup 9) shows 'jump cables'
which are extended around the ore etc. so a lanthanum grid *could* be
justifed in CT. However, i agree that retrofits should be viable as
described!

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:35:14 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Re: Wome in Traveller (was Re: Focus of the List)

Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:

>  Very few women read science fiction, however, (with the
>   possible exception of Michael Chrichton), and in the 18+ years I
>   have been playing Trav, I have only seen three women play.

Rob,

are you saying that Michael Chrichton is a woman? <g>

- ----

I've played a few games with women in - IMO the lack of any females in our
current group (which alternates fantasy and Traveller) really means we are
missing something. We have a nasty tendancy to go for swords n guns too
quickly. I ran a game with a predominantly female group at Xmas (my wife,
mother and sister in law), and it tended to be more carefully thought out.
It actually went quite well, especially as it was the first time that
anyone had played a game, let alone T4 (1 to 6D difficulty variant)!

Anyway, digressing, any news on the meson/damper rules for your conversion
system yet? I've just started playing with fighting ships to convert some
of the others out from it.






    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 14:35:26 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: The D66 Task System (was 2D TS)

Glenn, some folks in my game want a description of what each skill
level means.  We've been playing CT, where skill level (SL) 1 means
"under normal circumstances I will get the job done."  As a GM, I
don't even bother rolling the dice.  Of course, not all circumstances
are "normal," so nothing's as simple as it looks.  :-)

With the release of D66, it seemed to me that I should coordinate my
description of the levels with your task system.  Read what I did
below, and modify freely.

Thanks!

Let's use Pilot as the placeholder.  Any other skill can be
substituted.

Lvl  Title             Academic Understanding  Years Experience

1    Associate Pilot   basic                   limited
2    Pilot             complete                2-4 years
3    Senior Pilot      advanced                5-8 years    
4    Lead Pilot        instructor              9-13 years
5    Principle Pilot   advanced instrutor      14+ years

Levels above 5 I don't think are worth defining (No of my players
have above 4).  It's gets nebulous.  Suffice it to say they are very
good.  I've heard words like:

Expert, Master,Grand Master, and Yoda

What think you?



 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:19:08 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Another review of M0

On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Robert Flammang wrote:

>    I would LOVE to take a look at the "Long Way Home". When is it coming
>    to North America? When, when, when?

IG has asked that CORE re-write The Long Way Home into a 2-part adventure 
(each part being 64 pages).  Andy and David (the original authors of 
TLWH) are working on that now.  For those who have the book, the plan is 
to start the second adventure with the "Gateway" chapter.  Thus, from 
IG's schedule as posted on their site, we know when the second volume is 
coming out, as "Gateway" is the title - June of 1997.  As to when the 
first is coming out..probably in May.

Changes: TLWH was written to use the sector data provided in T4, which is 
now non-canon, so the new ones will use the correct sector data.  Also, 
since IG wants it in 2 parts, the first part will have to have some 
sub-plot resolution, while leaving the main plot hanging (much like Star 
Wars had some resolution, but left some things hanging to make you want 
to see the next movie).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 13:27:54 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Women players in Traveller

Here are my two crimp about women players.

The group I'm running has a women player. She adds a dimension to 
the sessions that I'd really hate to be without. She is one of the
few who stop to think things through instead of automatically 
reaching for a weapon.

In fact, when running a scenario that requires reasoning and planning,
I can usually count on her to be one of the leaders.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 20:34:01 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mark James Wilkin <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Trav on IRC

I was wondering if anyone is archiving these inforamtive classes 
somewhere, if not perhaps someone should:-)

*** "*Thwap* My life needs a rewind/erase button"          	***
***                                          Calvin and Hobbes  ***
*** Mark James Wilkin                                           ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 15:20:04 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: TNE-RCES Mailing LIst

Eris wrote:
>How about telling me too. I've tried a couple of times and just got a
>bounce.

Okay I looked into it a bit more and found this in the listproc help file

>subscribe <list> <your name>
>----------------------------
>The only way to subscribe to a list. 


So to get on the TNE-RCES list send a message with:

subscribe TNE-RCES "your email address" 

to listproc@tower.clark.net

mbutter@tower.clark.net is in charge of fixing errors, so if there
still is a problem, contact him.

Hopefully that should work.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is yellow, smooth and deadly?
A:Shark infested pudding.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:54:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Robert Flammang wrote:
>    Seems like you view the marines as His Majesty's special forces, and
>    have a fairly high opinion of them. But (given Traveller's roots) it
>    may be possible to compare them to the old US and royal marines from
>    the age of sail, where they maintained discipline and order on board
>    ships, in ports, and at bases. They may be essentially "cops with
>    swords" (as opposed to truncheons, flashlights, or tranq spray). And
>    I could see a nobleman or government servant might keep a few around
>    for protection. Or I could see how Cleon might use them in place of
>    regular troops to fight a particularly usavory little war that he
>    wanted to keep out of the limelight. Skilled? Maybe not, but
>    bloodthirsty! And /always/ faithful.

I agree:  

The maintenance of order and loyalty aboard Imperial warships is one of
the primary missions of the Marines, but the analogy to the Marines aboard
warships during the Age-of-Sail isn't *quite* right, at least in my
opinion.  Aboard *those* ships, the Marines were there to keep the *crew*
(plebians and/or criminals) from rebelling against the *officers*.  I
suspect that the Emperor is much more worried about the loyalty of
often-aristocratic naval officers that about plain old mutiny, and that
commander of a ship's onboard Marines is also the ship's unofficial (?)
"political officer."
                                                            - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 12:58:53 -0800
From: Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>
Subject: Battle Dress

In response to my concern over the virtual invulnerability of Augmented
Battle Dress (ABD) to small arms, Doug Berry wrote:

<<<Well, don't mess with the Marines comes to mind...  Seroiously, BD is
supposed to be the ultimate expression of military technology.  You just
aren't going to do much to a Marine in BattleDress unless you have some
access to militarygrade firepower yourself.

You could try for a Spectaular Sucess, and say you were aiming for a
joint or visor, but I'd recommend against that, since while your shooting at
him, he's shooting at you, and he doesn't need a SS to kill you.>>>

So what it seems has happened to ABD in the CT to T4 transition is that
when an opponent in ABD confronts the characters it's time to holster
those laser rifles and ACRs and head for the hills.  Likewise, should a
character manage to smuggle a suit of ABD aboard a transport ship,
once he puts on the armor, the crew needs to ask where he would like
to go and may they please stay aboard, cuz they're sure not going to do
much about it.  Of course, under the CT rules, it was just -8 to hit, so
eventually a skillful character with an ACR could take him out.

Now I know there are a lot of options for the crew aboard a ship.  This
scenario is not my point.  I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who sees
this as a huge upgrade in the armor value, and if people have come up
with solutions.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 21:26:59 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997 20:24:25 -0500, you wrote:

> 	And before I go back to work, I should also add that AFAIK real
> broadswords and shields are considerably heavier than the recycled stop
> signs and tarted-up rattan canes the SCA fighters pack.  This makes SCA
> fighting somewhat dubious IMHO as a test-bed for the sort of comparison
> you're making.

I doubt it... I know an SCA member and he knows his stuff.  Now
AD&D... that's where the 20 lb two-handed sword came from.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 13:37:19 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

At 06:24 PM 3/6/97 GMT0, Andrew wrote:

>On that subject, how many women do we have here on the TML?

Well, my wife reads some of the stuff that comes in, especially if I point
it out to her, does that count?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 13:57:08 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

At 01:49 PM 3/6/97 -0400, you wrote:

>   Seems like you view the marines as His Majesty's special forces, and
>   have a fairly high opinion of them. But (given Traveller's roots) it
>   may be possible to compare them to the old US and royal marines from
>   the age of sail, where they maintained discipline and order on board
>   ships, in ports, and at bases. They may be essentially "cops with
>   swords" (as opposed to truncheons, flashlights, or tranq spray). And
>   I could see a nobleman or government servant might keep a few around
>   for protection. Or I could see how Cleon might use them in place of
>   regular troops to fight a particularly usavory little war that he
>   wanted to keep out of the limelight. Skilled? Maybe not, but
>   bloodthirsty! And /always/ faithful.

Given the the requirements for entry and promotion (emphasis on Int and
Soc), and the skill availible, it seems to make more sense that the Marines
are the best of the best.  

They are the Imperium's sole ground force, with the Imperial Army being made
up of units drawn from member worlds' planetary forces.  The skill tables
reflect this, with multiple entries for Enviromental Combat, Camoflague, and
Battle Dress, among others.  Interstingly, there is only one entry for Blade
Combat (roll 6 under Career.)

If a noble needs a "brute squad", he's more likely to recruit it from the
planetary Army, which owes more directly to the noble.  Also, using the IM
against a world's population for anything short of open rebellion would
violate the "hands-off" policy.

In my campaign, you'll find Marines guarding the Imperial Embassy on every
world, along with their more traditional assignments onboard navy vessels.

>
>   Just an alternative way of looking at things.
>
>   -Rob
>
>
>

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:53:11 +1300
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Blunt Trauma Damage

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2AE5.C082B480
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Glen Grant said

*If the PC is not armored*, then they take the *highest* 3D of the full
number of dice. But, if they're flexible armor, the armor absorbs those
dice *before* damage is rolled.

This would ensure that wearing Flex does confer a real benefit compared to
not wearing armor at all - but if you're not lucky you might still take
more than 18 points.

How about limiting the maximum damage done by small arms fire to be 18 points regardless of the number of dice that are rolled.

i.e. 6D rolls are 6,2,4,5,2,2 for total of 21 points of which three are lost.

This seems a little severe maybe.


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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1034
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 6 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1035



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:Roswell Incident
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
High Guard
What happened....
re: Heresy
re: resource material
Re: Planetology 101
Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)
Re: T4: Barbarian Career
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins
Fencing vs. SCA/weapon-and-shield
My Visit to Denmark
Re:  TNE Stuff on the Mailing List
re; Accrete program
Real Background
Marines and Long Blade
List Split?
Re:Roswell Incident
New T4 edition
Re: Wome in Traveller
Re: Assorted
Re: Subject: Heresy 
two cents
[FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu,  6 Mar 97 10:09:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re:Roswell Incident

> They don't mind spending $100 on stars and FX, and most of a year
> making it, but they can't be bothered to spend, what, $1000 and a
> couple of days? to let an expert look over the script?
    Only if you get a court order, place a large calibur firearm to their heads
or otherwise use physical or other forms of violence. ;) You must understand
how Hollywood types work, they don't create anything, they are utterly bland,
unimaginative, politically biased and completely unoriginal.  They are
TERRIFIED of original ideas and try to chase people away who have them,
certainly they try very to make utterly certain that such people are not
allowed to make movies without the review and heavy editing of trusted higher
ups.
    FoEx one of the functions of Agents is to shop story ideas around for being
made into movies and unless you're Tom Clancy with the Hunt for Red October
they're going to take your story, reduce it to a page or so synopsis and then
sell that to be reworked by trusted Hollywood Hack writers who produce the same
shlock we've all grow up with.  It must fit the political agenda of the moment
of the Director, producers, executives and such like and not depart too far
from the types these people have been comfortable with.
    FoEx one of the reasons why so much so much of called science fiction made
in the past, and even today, is really horror or gruesome body count films with
science fiction elements is because most of these folks neither understand
science fiction or trust it if they do.  There is a story, I have personal
reasons to know is true, about a bunch of NBC execs who had to have to have the
whole political and social edge of Star Trek explained to them a decade after
they cancelled the show for poor ratings.  BTW I rolled on the floor in
laughter when I found out that the year after they cancelled Star Trek NBC
switched to a demographic rating system and the executives found out that Star
Trek had the best demographics of any show on the air, and OC they had
cancelled it.
    What's been done to Starship Troopers is but one in a looong string of
examples of how Hollywood simply can not handle anything with respect, dignity
or even a hope of accuracy.  Consult an expert who knows what they're talking
about?  Now do you want they to change their opinions just because you have the
facts on your side?!

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 17:11:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

   Hi.

> From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>

> I
> suspect that the Emperor is much more worried about the loyalty of
> often-aristocratic naval officers that about plain old mutiny, and that
> commander of a ship's onboard Marines is also the ship's unofficial (?)
> "political officer."
                                                            - J. Raynor

   Perfectly /wicked/. I like the way you think.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 17:06:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: High Guard

   Hi.

> From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)

> Anyway, digressing, any news on the meson/damper rules for your conversion
> system yet? I've just started playing with fighting ships to convert some
> of the others out from it.

   Yes, I'm very close to completing phase two; thanks to everyone who
   offered input. I should be posting the revised (and complete) rules
   this week. Some things to note:

   1) The damper rules I posted earlier were severely broken; the new
   rules should be a big improvement.

   2) I now have some ad hoc but reasonable rules for meson screens and
   repulsors.

   3) Many people seem unhappy with my armor conversion method.
   Unfortunately, I am unhappy with the alternatives, but in the spirit
   of "agreeing to disagree", I plan to post the alternatives together
   with my own recomendation.

   Enough advertising, I'll get to work making the tables now.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:17:19 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: What happened....

CT/MT/T4 TML'rs who don't like Virus either skip this, or suspend your
disbelief and roleplay a TNE'r. (All those acronyms...)

The recent discussion on TNE got me thinking:

Virus was devastating. What did it do to Terra, Vland and Capital...? Terra
particularly interests me, especially as I have a genuine 2300 beanstalk
there in my campaign. I suspect that the various racial homeworlds were
wiped out.

Ignoring the deaths (30 Trillion? 30,000,000,000,000?), which is not that
easy, just think about all that lost knowledge. And then expand that to all
the races bordering the Imperium. That's what got me about the TNE setting.


<You can start believing agin now!>

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:17:11 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: re: Heresy

<Drop Black Globe>
<Activate all screens>

I've got no problem with TNE on the list. Personally, the background
interests me. i'd really like to know where the plot was going after all
the hints in the Regency Sourcebook and Survival Margin (IMO the best ever
MT supplement even if it was meant to be TNE!). I don't use the rules (too
complex for my style of play) but I haven't got a problem with seeing stuff
here. I'd certainly prefer odd TNE articles to the interminal posts on T4's
tasks that we've had over the last fifty odd digests. <g>

Anyway - whatever the practical viability of Virus - it took my breath away
when I first read SM and started to take in the scope of the devastation.

<Black Globe on>

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:17:15 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: re: resource material

FWIW, here are my votes:

1) CJ Cherryh "Downbelow Station" series - excellent hard SF, with both a
merchantile and military bent.

2) Andre Norton "Sargasso of Space/Plague Ship/Postmarked the Stars" -
Trader Fiction.

3) Iain Banks - SF books generally - not quite Traveller, but nice.

4) Mary Gentle "Golden Witchbreed", "Ancient Light" - excellent
corps/diplos meet minor race.

5) Kim Stanley Robinson - XXXXX Mars series.

6) MK Wren (?) Phoenix Trilogy

7) Azimov's Foundation Trilogy (not the late add ons).

There are other books I like, but they don't really connect me with Traveller.

Videos -

BladeRunner - dark, industrial fun!
Star Wars etc. - I don't need to explain this, do I?
Dune - Sad it wasn't done as an 8hr mini series....
B5
Alien/s/3

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:26:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Planetology 101

Craig mentioned a program ACCRETE2 in his irc lecture the other day.  I'd
like to know if anyone's tracked it down.  There's a program called
Accrete for generating planetary systems in the softarew section of Joe
Hecks website,

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/software/accrete/

Is that the same thing? (I'm not sure, Craig mentioned the source being in
FORTRAN, and the program I found has source in c.)

TIA

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:22:28 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)

Bear in mind, when I offered my suggestion for the reason behind *all*
Marines knowing how to use Long Blades, I was trying to rationalize
something that has been a rule in Traveller since Classic Trav.

I agree the previous poster that Battle Dress is far more appropriate for
a far future star-faring cadre of drop troops.  However, Marc Miller (and
Co.) always mandated Long Blade.  With the publication of T4 and the
resultant creation of Mileau: Year Zero, he made mention of the nobles'
/code duello/.  I was assuming that this code had been a Sylean tradition
for the requisite number of centuries (if not millenium; this custom might
even predate contact with the Vilani!).  

There are numerous customs and practices (military or otherwise) that
don't really serve a necessary function anymore; we just keep doing them
"because we've *always* done them."

For example:

* The military salute originated as a way of showing that you were not
holding a weapon.

* Shaking hands originated as a way of mutually checking that neither
party had a dagger strapped to his forearm hidden by his sleeve.

* Bearing to the right-hand side of the road originated as keeping
oncoming strangers on your left flank, so as to ward off any attack with
your shield.  

Bearing in mind the military tendency to maintain traditions beyond any
rational duration, I felt it was an entirely reasonable premise that
Sylean Marines (later, Imperial Marines) would know Long Blade skill
because of their ancient traditions as bodyguards of the nobility.  

If there just happened to be good, rational reasons for this as well, so
much the better...  :-)

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 14:15:57 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: T4: Barbarian Career

Franklin W. Cain wrote:

Comments on Franklin's T4 Barbarian Career:

Enlisment looks okay...

Injury: A possible max of +6 in modifiers for a UPP of 8?88??-? is a
little much. I like the consistency of no more than +5 worth of
modifiers on the Injury test that applies to all character careers...or
the 5- injury number is a little too low. Consider raising the injury
number to a 6 or a 7 and dropping the +DM for intelligence to +1. This
is both consistant and provides a chance for even Gonad the Barbarian
Ghod to fail an Injury roll.

Promotion: Why have a entry for a roll of 7 on the Benefits table
without the possibility of a Barbarian ever getting the +1 for making
Rank 5? For that matter, unless a Barbarian can learn Gambling skill,
why give an entry for a roll of 7 on the Cash table? 

I suggest either creating a basic rank table _or_ revising the cash
table to allow a Barbarian to muster out with _very small_ amounts of
cash for rolls of, say, 2-5 (Cr10-Cr50) and delete the benefit for a
roll of 7.

The skills tables look right....

I do like this, and I'll make some use of a modified version. Good work,
Franklin!

- --Rich Ostorero
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 13:43:12 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> 
> Consider for a moment what a Marine has to learn in his training.  how to
> operate Battle Dress, the maitence and use of weapons ranging from the Gauss
> Rifle, to plasma weapons, up to tac missles.  How to sucessfully make a
> meterotic re-entry, both in a drop capsule and using a re-entry kit.
> Traditions and Regulations of the Naval Serivice.  I hardly think there
> would be *time* to teach swordplay!

Perhaps ImpMarine training takes a great deal longer than we Terrans
think of as military training. Consider that Heinlein's Mobile Infantry
Basic took a _year_ to complete, and taught most of the skills you
mention above, as well as _knife-throwing_ and a lot of others. 

> 
> The Imperial Marines are the Imperium's "ugly solution."  Rather than a
> smooth talking diplomat, or a 90,000 ton battleship making a quiet point by
> just orbiting your world, when the Marines show up, the party is OVER.

That's the truth! Imperial Marine Grav APCs have no low-lethality
weapons, and Marines aren't used as peacekeepers. "Peace Makers" is more
like it....
> 
> It seems that given the name, the IM are in fact the decendants of the
> Solomani Marines, who are in turn the inheretors of the legacy of the USMC
> and the Royal Marines.
> 
> I don't doubt that professional duelists would appear, I just don't think
> the military establishment would look kindly on a noble who picked fights
> and then sent young Marines to cover for him.
> 
> For a good look at how a dueling code and professional duelists might work,
> read "Field of Dishonor" by David Weber, one of the Honor Harrington novels.

Not to mention the reaction of senior military personnel to the problem
of duelling. I stole the basic Ordunnian duelling protocol in my game
from HH...it seems to work:)

- --Rich
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:55:07 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Men, Rp'ers, Loonies, and Munchkins

Doug Berry wrote:

>
>At 08:22 PM 3/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Favourite T4 weapon
>
>>Loonies: Bats.
>
>Fruit or Vampire?


	I was thinking whiffle, myself :).  So when is Dave going to get
around to posting this lovely Trav version of Real Men... Munchkins?  I'm
dying...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:35:36 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Fencing vs. SCA/weapon-and-shield

For the record, I never fought in the SCA.  (If I'm close enough to hit
you, *you* are too d@mn close to *me*...  :-)  However, I had the good
fortune to know many good SCA fighters (I knew they were good because they
consistently scored well in tournaments).  Several of them told me that
whenever they fought against someone with a background in fencing, their
opponent (the fencer) usually had problems working around their shields.  

With regards to my assertion about the relative strengths of the weapons,
I *own* a broadsword *and* and rapier (both from Museum Replica, about a
half-hour drive, on the other side of Atlanta).  According to Hank
Reinhardt, the #2 man over there, the rule of thumb for the weight of a
sword is "a pound per foot"; thus, a typical AD&D "long sword" should
wiegh three to four pounds.  A rapier or other fencing weapon, with a
*much* smaller cross-section for the blade, wieghs about half to one-third
as much.  Admittedly, my example was, perhaps, *somewhat* tongue-in-cheek
(and the Sahara Desert is *somewhat* arid), but I was just trying to
illustrate what *could* happen in reality but *cannot* happen in the rules
of the game.  

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:57:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: My Visit to Denmark

  I'll be at the University of Aarhus in Denmark from April 1 to September
10 this year, teaching and doing research as a Fulbright Fellow.  I'll
have a car, and my wife and I plan to travel, esp. in northern Germany,
Norway, and Sweden.  I'd be interested in meeting Traveller players,
especially any in the Aarhus area.  I look forward to hearing from you.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 18:06:38 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re:  TNE Stuff on the Mailing List

>So Chris, PLEASE post your stuff hear, I'd love to read it and I am sure
>others would too, and even if people don't use TNE rules, they can steal
>ideas from your posts.

What he said <g>! I'm an ol' CT and T4 maven personally, but I love to take
planet descriptions and vehicles and even personalities and politics that 
folks post about TNE and use them in my campaign. I may not ever plan on
using Virus as a end to the 3I, but in the 11,000 worlds anything can happen, 
and I can easily see a role for a planet or system devestated by a sentient
Virus.

So please, keep posting!

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:30:16 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: re; Accrete program

Well, I've been playing with that Accrete program that I found at Joe
Heck's web site.

Wow...I ran it about twenty times before I got a habitable planet, and
then it was one with a thin atmosphere. (Only .25 atm) OTOH runaway
greenhouse effects are quite common.

According to this program the universe is composed of Gas Giants, airless
rockballs blazingly hot and frigidly cold, and ... venus.

Granted, Terra _seems_ to be an anomaly, being essentially a twin planet
system, (as I remember my popular astronomy (some analog article by the
Great Doctor) Luna has kept earth from being a greenhouse by continually
stripping atmosphere off), but surely planets with atmospheres in the
habitable zone aren't THAT uncommon.

Now I gotta go dig up the references, and look at the code to see what's
going on.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:32:28 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Real Background

Harry Spewed forth the following tripe:
>William F. Hostman wrote:
>
>>
>> Hmmm... When do we get back the REAL traveller Background: 1050-1115???
>>
>
>no... 1192 - 1204 !!!  The REALLY real background

Hmm... 1977- 1990 vs 1990-1995... 13 years vs 5... I think you have a
misconception, mon frer...

;-)

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:42:22 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Marines and Long Blade

>
>Rebuttals?  Agreements?  Suggestions?
>
>Franklin
no... but a couple of side notes:
1) Blades are particularly well suited to boarding actions in vaccum...
they can cut/poke/tear vacc suits quite well, and they are damned effective
at reducing arm function. (Ever get hit with rattan by an Oerthan? Hardest
hitters in the west... rases welts THROUGH armour)

2) Shields are pretty hard to use in hallways.

3) Shields do get in your way when swinging a sword... even your own shield
lowers your chances of hit (In t4, i'd say only a -1 TN)

4) shields require about half as much training as a sword for effective use.

Wilhelm von D=FCsseldorf, AoA
MKA: William Hostman

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link=20

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:00:43 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: List Split?

Quoth David Golden:
>You don't hear CT-era campaigners griping about the Milieu 0 stuff, nor MT
>campaigners whining about people's custom campaigns, nor the M0 folks
>bitching about MT. Face it, folks, there's a wide variety of tastes out
>there.

WRONG!!!! You've merely been ignoring the subtle snubs of M0 by us CT fans.
And, personally, I couldn't care less about Eris' campaign setting. I don't
mind the T4 rules discussions (even though I shall never use them again,
they are too broken, lest some MAJOR changes arise), but I thought I had
made it patently clear I am not interested in M0. I await M1000/M1100. The
only emperors I care about are Strephon, his successors, and his father.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be posting here; au contraire, this is as
good as any; but it doesn't address the needs of the TNE, CT, or MT Refs or
players adequately. And there HAVE been complaints about FF&S/BL style
write-ups (not by me).

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 15:49:52 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re:Roswell Incident

At 10:09 AM 3/6/97 GMT, s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:
>> They don't mind spending $100 on stars and FX, and most of a year
>> making it, but they can't be bothered to spend, what, $1000 and a
>> couple of days? to let an expert look over the script?
>Only if you get a court order, place a large calibur firearm to their heads
>or otherwise use physical or other forms of violence. ;) You must understand
>how Hollywood types work, they don't create anything, they are utterly bland,
>unimaginative, politically biased and completely unoriginal.  They are
>TERRIFIED of original ideas and try to chase people away who have them,
>certainly they try very to make utterly certain that such people are not
>allowed to make movies without the review and heavy editing of trusted higher
>ups.

I work in the computer games industry, which in many ways these days is a
kissing-cousin to the movie industry.  I don't know that I agree with
Stephen _completely_, but what he says has the ring of truth.  

The best movie I know about the movie industry, btw, is "The Player."
Forget about the murder story and watch everything else.  Toooooo true.

[And now, quotes from my short time in the US movie industry, as an extra 
in Apocalypse Now:

Francis Ford Coppola: "Can you, you know, quack like a duck?"

My friend Kent, of the Playboy Bunnies: "Are those _real_?"

My one line in the movie, said to Martin Sheen, and left on the cutting
room floor: "Good morning."

Thank you, thank you very much... ]
- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:54:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: New T4 edition

JOE,
     Can you get us some word of what changes are going to be in the llimited
edition T4, besides errata fixes and a new task system.
      For instance will it still include SSDS or go with QSDS? Will the ship
designs be fixed to match the system?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 18:46:34 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Wome in Traveller

<< For those that haven't played with a 'girl player' before - I
thoroughly=20
recommend it, but you'd better be prepared for quality character
interaction=20
rather than plain old combat rolling. >>

<True. And whatever you do, don't make 'em angry...they really are
deadlier than the male...>

Very true... At one time or another I had seven different women PC's in
my CT/MT game. =20
Three at one time! =20
Together, these three became known as the "head hunters."  While the
character interaction was very good, you had better watch out when the
gloves came off.  Aimed shots for the head. =20
If I remember, the leader was a noble, and her two friends, a navy
commander (ret) and a scientist.  They hired the other PC's to crew
their ship and act as guards.  The push was to figure out the secret of
Grandfather. =20
To illustrate how they operated, during one boarding action the noble
became upset with the amount of damage HER ship had received, so she
stormed across to the enemy ship, past her guards, shot two bad guys in
the head, walked past the stunned crew, up to the bridge, and blew the
captain=92s head off.  It had to be the most amazing string of die rolls =
I
have ever seen.=20
Luckily her crew caught up just in time to stop the bridge crew from
wiping the deck with her.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:29:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Assorted

>Lessee, Famine, Plague, Pestilence...what's the fourth one?  Bad Table
>Manners?

The fourth one is Day-Glo polyester.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:17:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy 

>If non six-sided users are heretics, what am I if I don't use *any* dice?
>
>Pagan or Atheist?
>
>Pete 

Pete, you are a heathen pagan hereitc, much like Sparky.
dsf

pete-can we have a wave-motion battery?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:24:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Don Stark <stark@glacier.nrlssc.navy.mil>
Subject: two cents

I would like to comment on the suggestion that all TNE posts be sent 
to the TNE group rather than this one:

Don't let a few vocal individuals scare you off. There are many "lurkers"
of this group that see all the versions of traveller as being part of
the same whole, and as such want to see the TNE postings as much as
the others. I started playing CT back in 1978, and continued until the 
late 80's. I only recently ( about a year ago ) got back into traveller 
when I came across TNE in the game store. I can say for myself that I'm
interested in all incarnations of the game and would be disappointed if
the TNE people were run off. Besides I sort of like the plot idea, I just
wish the game system was more like CT. 

Now, time to get out of the light and back into the shadows.

- -------------------------------- 
                                |                                   
Don Stark                       |
e-mail: stark@nrlssc.navy.mil   |
- --------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 18:24:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

Jerry Joe Sonner asked Freelance Traveller...

>How do I get started playing traveler online? I haven't played
>real time for over twenty years. I have no experience of
>playing on line so start at the begining please. Thank you.

Does anyone have a basic FAQ on PBEM?  Or a pointer thereto?  Or
any other information regarding RPGs and specifically Traveller
on-line?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1035
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1036



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Ecology 101 outline on web
Re: Iceberg Lettuce gone to seed
Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav
Re: Female Gamers, Women in Traveller
Re: List Split?
Re: resource fiction
Re: List Split?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1032  LONG
Re: Planetology 101
Re: What happened...
Re: two cents
Re: Accrete program
re: resource material
Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?
Re: re; Accrete program
Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?
Alternative Biologies (was Iceburg Lettuce)
Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
Re: Accrete program
News from the Rim
Viper-class Dropship
What happened....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:43:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Ecology 101 outline on web

I know this is late notice, but...

An outline for my Ecology 101 IRC presentation tonight is now online at:

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/eco101.html

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:58:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce gone to seed

> Remember that the environment on a planet has to fit life BEFORE life
starts to adapt >to extremes of environment.
To go out on a limb: There has been some work published that suggests that
far from being a rare and random event that the formation of amino acids from
primordial soup is almost inevitable, and that the amino acids will combine
into a replicating molecule every time.*  Therefore it follows that any
planet that has a primordial soup will evolve life to fit the enviroment. The
question remains, what kind of life? 

This theory is somewhat on the lunatic fringe and I have problems with it but
it has great Traveller potential.

As a side note: Examination of the Gaia Hypothosis and Dr. Margolin's work on
synergistic evolution seems to suggest that the the two processes are
concurrent (should that be hyphenated?). I.e. once life has been sparked it
begins to change the character of the planet's evolution and as the planet
evolves, life changes and adapts and so on and so on ad infinitum ad
nausea...

Donning my asbestos suit-
dsf
Pete-Can we have a Gauss Autocannon if we promise not to shoot nuns with it?


*( Most of it was published in house organs and trade journals and I don't
recommend reading them unless you are REALLY REALLY into organic chemistry. I
will try to find the citations if anyone is interested.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 20:03:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Femail Gamers, Wome in Trav

>No wonder there's so few female players in Traveller when most listers
>aren't even able to spell these words correctly: Female, Women.
>
>BTW Weird is spelled weird not wierd as most(?) yanks seem to think.
Let's be 90's shall we?  Femayle, Wimmin, Womyn. Or maybe I'm just wyrd.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:58:11 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Re: Female Gamers, Women in Traveller

Zhodani Agents report Suzette C. Dollar said:
>[Lost Attribution...]
>> BTW Weird is spelled weird not wierd as most(?) yanks seem to think.
>> All this should be taken in with with a bit of a smile ;)
>
>Right, but we all have this rule floating around in our heads that we 
>learned in school but keep forgetting there are exceptions to.  It 
>goes like this:  I before E except after C <G>

Isn't that 'I before E except after C, and sometimes Y'?

:)
(And I thought it was about time to fix the subject line...)

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://www.visi.com/~danger/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 01:11:40 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: List Split?

William F. Hostman wrote:
> 
> Quoth David Golden:
> >You don't hear CT-era campaigners griping about the Milieu 0 stuff, nor MT
> >campaigners whining about people's custom campaigns, nor the M0 folks
> >bitching about MT. Face it, folks, there's a wide variety of tastes out
> >there.
> 
> WRONG!!!! You've merely been ignoring the subtle snubs of M0 by us CT fans.
> And, personally, I couldn't care less about Eris' campaign setting. I don't
> mind the T4 rules discussions (even though I shall never use them again,
> they are too broken, lest some MAJOR changes arise), but I thought I had
> made it patently clear I am not interested in M0. I await M1000/M1100. The
> only emperors I care about are Strephon, his successors, and his father.
(rest snipped)										 Hear!Hear!Joe,when are we going to get some
REAL Traveller supplements again????        I am currently running a
game to test the T4 system and speaking as a ref all I can say
is-DISAPPOINTED!!!!!!!!!!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:13:02 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Re: resource fiction

Zhodani Agents report Mike Sellers said:
>
>New thread.  This should be in the FAQ.

Yup.  Do we HAVE an FAQ?

>So: what fiction do you like for resource material?  I've already obliquely
>suggested "The Count of Monte Christo" just because I think you could
>retell that story in a Traveller-Imperium setting easily and well.

1.  _Cosmic Computer_, _Space Viking_, _Four Day Planet/Texas Planet_,
_Uller Uprising_, the collections _Empire_ and _Federation_, and the
"Fuzzy" books, all by H. Beam Piper.  You've got to like an SF author
whose middle name is 'Beam'!!!

2.  The Five Demon Princes novels by Jack Vance.  A true classic of the
genre.  Go read them.

3.  The Chanur series and Downbelow Station by C. J. Cherryh.

4.  _Protector_ by Larry Niven.  This book suggests to me what Yaskoydray
would be like.  IMHO, of course (I know lots of people don't like
Grandfather at all and would rather do without him...)

5.  The Foundation/Robots series from Isaac Asimov.

6.  _Space Cadet_ by RAH.

7.  The first Stainless Steel Rat book, by Harry Harrison.

8.  The (neverending) Dumarest of Terra series by E.C. Tubb.  This one
isn't necessarily the greatest read, but it has a large number of
Travelleresque touches, like Low Berths, Nobles, mostly Human-dominated
worlds, Slow Drug, etc.

I can keep going for a long time... :)

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://www.visi.com/~danger/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 17:18:07 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: List Split?

At 02:00 PM 3/6/97 -0900, you wrote:
>WRONG!! You've merely been ignoring the subtle snubs of M0 by us CT fans.
>And, personally, I couldn't care less about Eris' campaign setting. I don't
>mind the T4 rules discussions (even though I shall never use them again,
>they are too broken, lest some MAJOR changes arise), but I thought I had
>made it patently clear I am not interested in M0. I await M1000/M1100. The
>only emperors I care about are Strephon, his successors, and his father.

So post something!  Do a write up of a world, start a discussion on
political tension between the Duke of Regina and The Duchess of Mora, hold
forth on Sword World Military tactics..

NOBODY IS STOPPING YOU!

>I'm not saying they shouldn't be posting here; au contraire, this is as
>good as any; but it doesn't address the needs of the TNE, CT, or MT Refs or
>players adequately. And there HAVE been complaints about FF&S/BL style
>write-ups (not by me).

It seems to me, that you expecting the rest of us to cater to your
desires/needs.  Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.  As I pointed out
before, this list depends on its members for content.  You want something,
you write a post, and start the ball rolling.  If that ball don't roll, then
you're on your own.

Please don't take this as a flame, but I can't recall you doing much more
than complain.  Maybe you've been brillant in some of the threads I don't
follow, but in my experience, you are known for complaining about what other
people are (or are not) doing than contributing to the list.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 16:46:41 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1032  LONG

Fellow Travellers and Heretics:

I initially tried to respond to TD #1020.  Can't tell if I
got onto the TML.  Please confirm receipt of this message.

Have just read my first copies of Traveller Digest...Neat Stuff

Have been a CT fan - player - referee since 1977.

Some thoughts on several of the flowing topics...

CANON --  I don't follow what the Pope says, so why should
I follow what the rule books say?  They're just guidelines.
Players and I have always had fun bending, molding, shaping
the rules to suit our vision of the universe.  Why should I
change now?  Our only limits are our imaginations.  Wasn't
there a famous Terran cadet that changed the "rules" to win
a Starfleet Exercise?  I guess I'm just a space viking.

MOUSETRAPS -- that's what I think of the T4 refinements(?) to
weapons' damage.  Keep the rules simple.  Emphasize role
playing.  Realism is for Wargamers (and I'm one of those,
also).  IMO, the best combat system came out of Ashanti High
Lightning.  Roll to hit, roll to kill -- light, medium, heavy.
Quick and dirty, then move on to role playing.

FEMALE PCs -- the best _role_player_ I met and interacted
with was female.  Role playing was more important to her
than combat.  Most young male gamers tend towards the
"Drunk Grunt" syndrome.  I've always discouraged this MO
and required finesse and quality role playing.  This lady's
player character eventually went on to form her own
mercenary company that built its own Billion Credit
Squadron....after five years of full weekend role
playing.  Okay, maybe I was a little to easy a referee.
But we focussed on having fun.  Besides, I want the PCs
to win and conquer space, not whimper in the corner.

As I recall, when I first started with CT, the group
I was with in North Dakota was 50/50 male to female.
Many gamers were husband and wife teams.  And because
of this, my wife even became involved in RPGing.

My wife would tell you that women in RPGames don't
get the respect they deserve.  They're either treated
as bimboes or playthings.  I think with a 50/50
mix the ladies kept me honest and on my toes.  Don't
piss the ladies off. 
 

800T MERC CRUISER -- In response to Wes Payne 
and the 800T Merc Cruiser.

We solved the cutter problem because we felt the
800T MC Broadsword design was too small for its own good.
We upgraded to a 1000T High Guard design using two 50T cutters,
adding two additional LSP modules for the cutters
and made them a side to side, slide-in//slide-out design.

Like Wes says,
you need to launch the cutters before a surface landing.
This is just good operating practice and smart to
provide the landing operation a HighGuard.  Proper 
mission planning is critical.  Launching the cutters
after just entering a system may be neccesary, if
not required.

BLADED WEAPONS in Traveller
My version of the Marine Sword is ceremonial at best.
A throwback to the flash of the Terran USMC and Royal
Marines.  Yet it took a rather morbid turn in its
history.  As more and more Solomani Forces made their
way across the galaxy, more and more Marines were
lost in combat.  Marines too wounded to be returned
space-side were given a coup d'grace in the heart by
their bunk mate.  Their bodies were interned planet-side
and the sword was then return to Sol to be buried on
Terra near the Iwo Jima Memorial.  This shrine was
destroyed when the Third Imperium took Terra....We'll be back.



Educate  --  Lead  --  Serve

Eric T. Holmes, Safety Engineer
JCI Technical Assurance Department
Health and Safety Branch
PO Box 50    MS: G750
Los Alamos, NM 87544

Tel:  505-665-4894
Fax:  505-665-1887

Voice Pager:  104-1628

              ~~~~~
             (-0 0-)
- ---------oOOo--( )--oOOo---------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 17:18:04 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planetology 101

At 03:26 PM 3/6/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Craig mentioned a program ACCRETE2 in his irc lecture the other day. 

You're getting you Berrys mixed up.  I was the other night, Craig is on
tonight.  I'll see if i can remember where I found Accrete2, which is
similar to Accrete, except that gives you Traveller UWPs.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 20:49:24 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: What happened...

	Dom Mooney wrote:

>CT/MT/T4 TML'rs who don't like Virus either skip this, or suspend your
>disbelief and roleplay a TNE'r. (All those acronyms...)
>
>The recent discussion on TNE got me thinking:
>
>Virus was devastating. What did it do to Terra, Vland and Capital...? Terra
>particularly interests me, especially as I have a genuine 2300 beanstalk
>there in my campaign. I suspect that the various racial homeworlds were
>wiped out.
>
>Ignoring the deaths (30 Trillion? 30,000,000,000,000?), which is not that
>easy, just think about all that lost knowledge. And then expand that to all
>the races bordering the Imperium. That's what got me about the TNE setting.


	For a killer couple of chapters about a falling beanstalk, pick up
Kim Stanley Robinson's _Red Mars_: magnify some of the effects due to
higher gravity and thicker atmosphere, and you've got a doozy of a titanic
event...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:45:51 -0800
From: "Wes Payne" <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: two cents

Thus spake Don Stark <stark@glacier.nrlssc.navy.mil>:

> I would like to comment on the suggestion that all TNE posts be sent 
> to the TNE group rather than this one:
> 
> Don't let a few vocal individuals scare you off. There are many "lurkers"
> of this group that see all the versions of traveller as being part of

And if you feel tempted to ask, at this point, "Such as who...?", know that
I am one of those lurkers.  Sort of.

> Now, time to get out of the light and back into the shadows.

Yeah.  I think I'm starting to freckle.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 20:51:01 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Accrete program

	Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>Well, I've been playing with that Accrete program that I found at Joe
>Heck's web site.
>
>Wow...I ran it about twenty times before I got a habitable planet, and
>then it was one with a thin atmosphere. (Only .25 atm) OTOH runaway
>greenhouse effects are quite common.
>
>According to this program the universe is composed of Gas Giants, airless
>rockballs blazingly hot and frigidly cold, and ... venus.


	Well, isn't that mostly what the universe *is* composed of :)?


>
>Granted, Terra _seems_ to be an anomaly, being essentially a twin planet
>system, (as I remember my popular astronomy (some analog article by the
>Great Doctor) Luna has kept earth from being a greenhouse by continually
>stripping atmosphere off), but surely planets with atmospheres in the
>habitable zone aren't THAT uncommon.
>
>Now I gotta go dig up the references, and look at the code to see what's
>going on.

	Well, I've been messing around with Accrete a fair bit too, and
I've been getting a fair number of habitable planets.  I've been saving the
more interesting systems.  I can send you some if you like.


	Trouble with Accrete is, it doesn't allow you any sort of input
into the starting parameters of the system; you can't tell it to take a
blue supergiant, say, with a habitable earth-sized planet around a
superjovian, and take that ball and run with it.  And there's no graphic
output; schematics would be nice...

	It's pretty trippy, though: Accrete has been around for a long
time; first version IIRC was run on some primitve mini by Carl Sagan and
some other guy, and took ages to run by modern standards... whereas my
68LC040 Mac just rips through it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 18:08:52 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: re: resource material

At 10:17 PM 3/6/97 +0000, SD Mooney wrote:
>5) Kim Stanley Robinson - XXXXX Mars series.

I've read the first two of these.  I found them inspiring... from a
professional point of view... :-)


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 18:08:56 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

At 06:24 PM 3/6/97 -0500, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:
>Jerry Joe Sonner asked Freelance Traveller...
>
>>How do I get started playing traveler online? I haven't played
>>real time for over twenty years. I have no experience of
>>playing on line so start at the begining please. Thank you.
>
>Does anyone have a basic FAQ on PBEM?  Or a pointer thereto?  Or
>any other information regarding RPGs and specifically Traveller
>on-line?

This is a nice lead-in to a question I'd like to see the group discuss:
Would you have any interest in a hypothetical online Traveller game?  And
if so, what does "online Traveller game" mean to you?  What would you
expect, want to see, want to avoid seeing, etc.?


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 20:09:12 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: re; Accrete program

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Granted, Terra _seems_ to be an anomaly, being essentially a twin planet
> system, (as I remember my popular astronomy (some analog article by the
> Great Doctor) Luna has kept earth from being a greenhouse by continually
> stripping atmosphere off), but surely planets with atmospheres in the
> habitable zone aren't THAT uncommon.

Actually that theory has been discounted. It turns out that the
gravitational attraction of the moon isn't strong enough to remove
that much atmosphere in only a few billion years.

Earth is a rarity because it has just the right atmosphere, mass
and distance from its primary to become "class M".

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 20:13:23 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

Mike Sellers wrote:
> This is a nice lead-in to a question I'd like to see the group discuss:
> Would you have any interest in a hypothetical online Traveller game?  And
> if so, what does "online Traveller game" mean to you?  What would you
> expect, want to see, want to avoid seeing, etc.?

You bet I'm interested. I've been refereeing CT/MT for about 15 years
(off and on) but haven't been a player in a while. "Online" for me
would mean email, since I don't have the time to sit for hours logged
in to an active session somewhere.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:37:40 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Richard Fields <rfields@actrix.gen.nz>
Subject: Alternative Biologies (was Iceburg Lettuce)

I've found a comparison for iceburg lettuce, John Cleve's Spaceways 4 
'Satana Enslaved'. 1982
The Stiglul is a ameoba like lifeform. It absorbs food by osmossis and 
stores energy in the form of Hexose based alcohol rather than fats. If 
distressed eg electricly shocked it will release excess stored alcohol to 
allow faster flight.The practical use is that these stigluls will recycle 
organic waste and be milked for alcohol. As an extra plot kick Hexose is a 
non human digestable sugar, hence you get drunk but don't store the 
calories as fat.
Anyone elce got any other comparisons?

Wisefool

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 22:00:06 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> I believe a large portion of the population isn't going to care about
> Cleon's morals, or lack of same, simply because they aren't being affected.
> 
> People tend to follow the money, and the new Imperium is making people rich.

So you're basically saying everything is driven by economics?
Now where have I heard that before...? ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 22:27:37 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Accrete program

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
>         Trouble with Accrete is, it doesn't allow you any sort of input
> into the starting parameters of the system; you can't tell it to take a
> blue supergiant, say, with a habitable earth-sized planet around a
> superjovian, and take that ball and run with it.  And there's no graphic
> output; schematics would be nice...

Weeeell, not quite. A couple months ago I worked with the developer of
Accrete and asked him to allow some input. He sent me a zipped file of
version 3.0 which allows the physical aspect of the main world to be
keyed in (I think). I have yet to unzip it though but I'll be happy to
send the file to anyone who wants to play with it.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 97 21:57:03 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: News from the Rim

062-0001
Alpher/Solomani Rim:  Crashland City News Service

  The results of the recent THUDDD shipbuilding contest recently stirred up
controversy within the ranks of local shipbuilding concern Custom Built
Wreckage, a source within the company reported early this week.
  "We were forced to look hard at our operations and company hierarchy,"
company vice president Palmer Eldritch said.  Of particular concern were
the comments of one critic, who was reported to have said "no self
respecting pilot would buy a ship from a company named 'Crash'."  The
comment was "very disturbing," Mr Eldritch told the CCNS.  "Needless to
say, there will be some changes in the future."
  One such change, which was announced earlier this week, is to the
company's name, which will be known from today on as Maximum Burn IG. 
  Following the announcement, Dictator-for-Life and Company President
Grabow Freem called a press conference wherein he decried the changes, and
announced that any future alterations to the company's philosophy, logo,
name, or corporate structure would take place "over my dead body!".
  Funeral services for Mr Freem are expected to be held next week.





- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 97 22:24:11 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Viper-class Dropship

065-0001
Alpher/Solomani Rim:  Maximum Burn IG Press Release

  Maximum Burn IG is proud to announce its first ever military-purpose
non-starship, the Viper-class Assault Landing Craft.

Viper-class Assault Landing Craft

Tons:  50 Std (Cylinder AF)	Volume:  700 kl				Cost:  75.995MCr
Crew:  4					High/Mid Pass:  0/20			Low:  0
Cargo:  7.8 Std			Controls:  DynaLink (High Auto)	TL:  12

7 Size							0 Jump Drive
								6 Maneuver Drive (Thrusters, 75 MW)
1x  251Mj Laser Barbette (+4) 1/2-2-1-0	5 Power Plant (1x 100MW, 1x 25MW
Fusion)
								1.34 Fuel
								A4 P4 J0 Sensors (Masked)
1x  G-Carrier/ATV Hangar (min, 8 Std)	30 Armor	8 Structure

Crew Detail:	1 Command, 1 Maneuver, 1 Gunnery, 1 Electronic
			16 Troops, 2 Officers, 2 Vehicle Crew

Accommodations:	4x Standard Workstations, 20x Adequate Seats (3.5kl each)

  The Viper is a light, fast landing craft designed to carry two squads of
marines or mercenaries into hot or cold drop zones from orbit.  It carries
a single, 4 Std ATV or G-Carrier and 16 troops, 2 squad leaders and their
equipment.  The vehicle bay opens to the rear of the craft so the vehicles
can be released without launching the Viper from its carrier.
  The ship uses Contragrav units in addition to its Thruster drives in
order to get the maximum possible accelleration under planetary assault
conditions.  Its wings are designed to fold close to the fuselage of the
ship for easy storage within a docking ring or hangar.



- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 00:03:57 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: What happened....

SD Mooney writes:

>The recent discussion on TNE got me thinking:
>
>Virus was devastating. What did it do to Terra, Vland and Capital...? Terra
>particularly interests me, especially as I have a genuine 2300 beanstalk
>there in my campaign. I suspect that the various racial homeworlds were
>wiped out.

   The history of Terra from 1130 to 1202 is detailed in Traveller
Chronicle #11 (the sector stats are in TTC #10).  Back issues of
Traveller Chronicle are available from Sword of the Knight Publications
(http://members.aol.com:80/swrdknght/sok.htm).  Someone in History of
the Imperium Working Group (HIWG) detailed the post-Collapse Vland
sector, but so far as I know it never made it to print.  As for
Capital....

   It is at the center of the so-called "Black Curtain".  GDW never
published exactly what happened there, but a select few of us know what
they had in mind (at least back in 1992).  

>Ignoring the deaths (30 Trillion? 30,000,000,000,000?), which is not that
>easy, just think about all that lost knowledge. And then expand that to all
>the races bordering the Imperium. That's what got me about the TNE setting.

   True holocaust.  Time is measured in terms of what happened before,
and what happens after.  Civilizations are transformed--some collapse
under the pressure, and new ones are created.

   When we look at the Holocaust (the real one), we see many parallels. 
Many unique ethnic communities (most Jews, some not) across Europe were
uprooted destroyed by the Nazis.  Those individuals that survived the
Death camps were transformed by their experience.  Ultimately many of
the surviving European Jews immigrated to the Holy Land, where they
created a new society which incorporated all their different cultural
backgrounds and influences.  The result was of course Israel.

   Anyone trying to claim the Reformation Coalition is the Israel of the
New Era will be subject to a lecture from my virtually Jewish (my wife
will testify to this) Italian mother-in-law.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1036
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1037



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Assorted
Quick Hit Location
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: re; Accrete program
Re: Alien Book
Re: Focus of the List
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Quick Hit Location
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
[none]
Re: Quick Hit Location
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Ken Bearden's Task System & Experience
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
re: Blunt Trama Damage
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1028
Re: (no subject)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:52:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Assorted

> >Lessee, Famine, Plague, Pestilence...what's the fourth one?  Bad Table
> >Manners?

War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death, if I recall correctly.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:25:23 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Quick Hit Location

I'd like to thank all those who have had good things to say about my Hit
Location table. Glad you find it useful.

I recently realized that the table is rather more detailed than  is
entirely necessary. For game purposes, being hit in one part of the leg or
another is unlikely to make much difference. As someone suggested (many
months ago), why not just reduce things down to a few general locations,
such as "Leg". This leaves us with a location roll of a single D6! The new
simplified version follows.

I've noticed that during the heat of battle, there is a tendency to forget
to roll for hit location, or ignore it as unnecessary detail that slows
down the game. But I think location is important, especially in terms of
armor - some characters forget to wear their helmets, some only wear armor
vests, etc.

If I ever get my own campaign off the ground, I'm going to make hit
location part of the 'to hit' roll: I just add a third die to my D66 Task
Roll system, for a D666 (!). The first two dice are the 'to hit' roll, the
third die is the location.

Referees should excercise a lot of discretion with this table (or the
detailed version), especially when adding damage per round for internal
wounds, artery hits, etc. This extra damage can all too easily and quickly
kill your PCs. It depends on what kind of game you want to play.
Swashbuckling, StarWars-esque gamers would do well to avoid using hit
location entirely - it tends toward the gruesome and deadly. Realist
referees who want players to sensibly keep their helmets on and heads down
should definitely use a hit location system such as this. I'm definitely in
the second camp - I feel that a sense of 'real' mortal danger adds greatly
to the excitement of a firefight.

Referees might want to add sub-tables for more specific locations. For
instance, even a Minor Wound to the Head/neck might call for a roll on a
"Head/Neck Table", to ascertain if the hit impairs the PC's vision. But if
you want this level of detail, you might as well use the original long
version of the Hit Location table.

Without further ado, 1D Hit Location...

Glenn G.
- -----------------------

                        Hit Location

     Location      Superficial  Minor      Major        Critical

1    Leg           Fall         Frac       Impd         Amp 1-3p/r
2    Hip/Pelvis                 Frac       Intl 1p/r    Artery 2p/r
3    Arm           Drop Items   Frac       Impd         Amp 1-3p/r
4    Middle Torso               Intl 1p/r  Intl 2p/r    Spine
5    Upper Torso                Intl 1p/r  Intl 2p/r    Lung/Spine
6    Head/Neck     Stuns 1 rd   Frac/Impd  Conc/Throat  Brain/Spine

Roll one die for location. A specially colored die is suggested, so that
the roll to hit and the location roll can be made simultaneously.

A Spectacular Success on the roll to hit allows the attacking player to
select the location, at referee's discretion.

Then roll damage, reducing dice if location is armored.

If no stats are reduced to zero by the hit, see "Superficial" for any
secondary effects of the wound.

If 1 stat is reduced to 0, see "Minor" wound effect. Minor Wound effects
such as fractures (Frac) and impaired organs (Impd) are temporary and will
heal completely with proper medical attention.

If 2 stats are reduced to 0, see "Major" wound effect. Even with proper
medical attention, Major Wound effects can result in the character being
permanently impaired, depending on med facility Tech Level.

When rolling damage, any roll of two sixes is a Critical Hit, even if no
stats are reduced to 0. At the referee's discretion, any large amount of
damage may be considered a Critical Hit, whether two sixes are rolled or
not.

Generally, effects are cumulative: if a Major Wound is received,
Superficial and Minor effects are also applied.

Most hits are received on the side nearest the attacker. When needed, roll
1D or Right (1-3) or Left (3-6).

Where two effects are listed (such as "Frac/Impd"), the referee should
select the most appropriate. Obviously, higher damage implies more serious
effects.

Secondary Wound Effects:

   #p/r = character receives additional points of damage per subsequent
round, until medical attention is received. At referee's discretion, extra
damage might cease before character dies.
   Fall = Might not be automatic (see Stopping Power, below). Might incur
extra damage, usually 1pt, depending on situation.
   Drop Items = At referee's discretion, a Difficult test of Dexterity may
be called for. Failure causes character to drop items carried. Note that
many firearms are designed to make them difficult to drop.
   Stun = Stunned characters cannot attack or move for 1 round, longer in
the case of more serious wounds. Might require rest to recover fully.
   Frac = Fracture. Referee may decide on specific bone fractured.
   Impd = Impaired function (see above).
   Heart = Heart injury causes additional damage. Usually accompanied by
fractured ribs.
   Artery = Major artery hit, causes additional damage.
   Amp  = Potential amputation; if large amount of damage received in a
single hit, amputation might occur, at referee's discretion. If so,
character receives further 1 to 3 pts damage per subsequent round until
medical attention received. Energy weapon hits do not incur extra damage,
as the wound is automatically cauterized.
   Lung = Lung puncture, causes additional damage. Usually accompanied by
fractured ribs.
   Throat = Throat wound impairs breathing, causes additional damage.
   Intl = Internal organ hit, causes additional damage.
   Conc = Cerebral concussion. Either mild, causing headaches, or serious,
causing migraines, dizzyness, seizures, etc. Severity increases if
character loses consciousness.
   Brain = At referee's discretion, effects may include partial or total
paralysis, coma, speech impairment, blindness, personality change,
seizures, etc, depending on amount of damage taken and swiftness of medical
attention.
   Spine = Almost always causes paralysis. Extent and severity to be
determined by referee.

For hits from automatic fire, shotguns, or explosives, it is generally
assumed that the rolled hit location is for the most serious of a group of
wounds (which are not rolled).

If the "Stopping Power" house rule* is being used, head and leg hits incur
a negative DM when character rolls to remain standing. Any roll of two ones
is a Spectacular "Success" - in which case the character not only remains
standing, but is not immediately aware that he or she has been hit,
regardless of the amount of injury sustained!

[*House rule: Stopping Power: Any weapon (except lasers) rated at 5D damage
automatically knocks a character prone. Weapons rated at 2D-4D damage:
defender must roll vs. Dex. when hit, even if armor absorbs all the
damage.]

House rule: Skill Assignment: A character may choose to divide combat skill
levels between the roll to hit and the location roll, instead of applying
all levels to the roll to hit. Thus, a PC with Pistol 4 may choose to have
a +2 DM to hit, and a +2 or -2 DM to the location roll, raising it to aim
high (for more critical locations) or lowering it to aim low (to knock
down, or to mimimize damage). Skills Assignment is generally not possible
beyond the weapon's effective range. The Skill Assignment rule does not
necessarily replace the T4 "Aimed Shots" rule.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:41:03 -0500
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

I've also done a fair amount of SCA fighting. If the sword and shield man
(or woman) knows how to use their shield, it can be used offensively to
clear an opponent's weapon (sword or rapier), leaving the path open for the
sword to strike. In reality (history), the shield can become a second
weapon capable of inflicting a fair amount of damage itself. A rapier or
even a heavier blade does not provide much of a push against a shield. Many
heavier swords also had points, so a Barbarian would not be totally
unprepared for a thrust. A fencer would have to depend on his reach, speed,
and ability to backup quickly.

My own favorite weapon was a glaive or naginata, a heavy blade mounted on a
pole. It works a lot like a bayonet, provides a fair amount of reach, and
can be used to slash as well. Now, if you want to match that against a
rapier, ...

Later, John Lambert

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:20:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: re; Accrete program

Quoth Bruce Johnson:
> According to this program the universe is composed of Gas Giants, airless
> rockballs blazingly hot and frigidly cold, and ... venus.

That's actually not a bad assessment, though it neglects the effects of an
ecosphere on moderating planetary environment.  For a recent statistical
analysis of the occurence of habitable planets, check Martyn J. Fogg's
article from a few years back (1994-5?) in Journal of the British
Interplanetary Society.
 
> Granted, Terra _seems_ to be an anomaly, being essentially a twin planet
> system, (as I remember my popular astronomy (some analog article by the
> Great Doctor) Luna has kept earth from being a greenhouse by continually
> stripping atmosphere off)

That's an old theory from the 1950's, no longer considered valid.  The
latest gee-whiz thought about the Moon is that it aided the development
of life by creating large tides, thus replenishing tidepools where early
life was getting started.  (Solar tides alone are about 1/3 of the effect,
though, IIRC -- maybe the Moon just helped move things along).

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:35:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

I like some of Carlos' thoughts on Alien books.  I'd go for each volume
covering one major race, one minor human race, and two additional (non-
human) minor races.  So, for example....

VILANI (good for Milieu 0, Milieu Ziru Sirka, etc.) covers them, the
	Suerrat (who may, as Marc describes, play a major role in Year 0 
        galactic politics), and, say, the Tahavi and, um, Newts?

VARGR (which it sounds like the Powers That Be really want to bring out 
	soon), features them plus the Answerin (who are right up there
	in the neighborhood), the Brinn, and, er, a new one.

ASLAN (heralding Milieu:200, I'd suppose) rings in those honor-bound
	folks, along with the Geonee (who are presumably involved in
	"taking back" that region of space), perhaps the Ahetaowa,
	and the Ormine.

SOLOMANI provides information on them, whatever minor branch of humaniti
	is closest (hasn't been developed much!), the Vegans, and, hm,
	maybe the triplet of neo-chimps / neo-dolphins, / neo-orcas.

CENTAURS details them, some subjugated vegetarian variety of humaniti,
	the Girug'kagh, and another new one -- perhaps the Outcasts of
	the Whispering Sky, who lie in that direction?  Another option
	would be the Githiashio, who I seem to recall live in Antares.

HIVERS again sketches out the Manipulators, along with some human race
	from Spica, the Ithklur, and another Confederation species.

ZHODANI writes them up, plus the Darrians, and the Addaxur, and some 
	new bunch.

DROYNE lays out the castes and structure, describes, presumably, some
	Droyne/Chirper-connected offshoot of humaniti, and then details
	two more minor species.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 97 23:49:44 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Focus of the List

On 03/06/97 at 01:37 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

> >On that subject, how many women do we have here on the TML?

> Well, my wife reads some of the stuff that comes in, especially if I
> point it out to her, does that count?

Only if *she* says it does! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 01:04:31 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

On 03/05/97 at 01:38 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> 1)  THE DIFFICULTY CODES:

> Change the difficutly codes to match these.  Notice that I am only  using
> whole dice--no more half die!

> 	Easy:       2D/Auto
> 	Average:    3D
> 	Difficult:  4D
> 	Formidable: 5D
> 	Staggering: 6D
> 	Impossible: 7D

Except for me calling Difficult, Hard and having a 1d Auto level this
matches up with my suggestion..so I *must* like it.  ;->


> 2)  TARGET NUMBER:

> Calculating the number in combat is as simple, like T4, as adding two 
> number together.  

> 	Multiply all skill levels by 3.  Record this number next to the 
> 	skill on the character's sheet.  This new number will be referred to 
> 	as the character's experience score or number.

Ok, 3 times skill level...simple enough, but 3 is high for a flat rate.

> 	Experience + Attribute = Target Number

Done and done.

> I still have to figure out a few periphial issues, like how to  calculate
> SS and SF based on this system, but the basics are solid.   

I don't have a problem with SS or SF. 

Here are some numbers for medium, low, and high stat characters:


    Larry Low
    Stat-2
              Sk 2     Sk 3     Sk 4
             (TN 08)  (TN 11)  (TN 14)
 Easy         72.2%    97.2%   100.0%
 Average      25.9%    62.5%    90.7%
 Difficult     5.4%    23.9%    55.6%
 Formidable    0.7%     5.9%    22.1%
 Staggering    0.1%     1.0%     6.1%


 	Plain Jane
 	Stat-7
              Sk 2     Sk 3     Sk 4
             (TN 13)  (TN 16)  (TN 19)
 Easy        100.0%   100.0%   100.0%
 Average      82.4%    98.1%   100.0%
 Difficult    44.4%    76.1%    94.6%
 Formidable   15.2%    40.0%    69.5%
 Staggering    3.6%    14.5%    36.3%


    Harry High
    Stat-12
              Sk 2     Sk 3     Sk 4
             (TN 18)  (TN 21)  (TN 24)
 Easy        100.0%   100.2%   100.0%
 Average     100.0%   100.5%   100.0%
 Difficult    90.3%    98.8%   100.0%
 Formidable   60.0%    84.8%    96.8%
 Staggering   27.9%    54.6%    79.4%
    
I'd say Harry's a real monster! ;->

Ok, comments...a flat 3 seems a little too high, but it has the benefit of
being simple.  

Alternative ideas

1.  Rather than write down skill levels just directly add three to
    skill experience total each time you gain that skill.  Simpler
    than a multiplication at the end.
    
2.  4/3/2/1-1-1 First level of skill is worth 4, second is worth 3,
    etc.  Boosts low levels, but keeps top end from blowing out the
    scale.  Mid level PC's match up pretty well with your scale.  It
    also models learning curve better than a flat 3.

3.  Aptitudes for each skill (you knew I had to throw this one in
    didn't you ;->).  First time a skill is gained roll 2d6 and
    write the number down next to skill name, this is your Skill
    Aptitude.  Each time a skill level is gained roll a 1d6, add it
    and your Skill Aptitude to your total experience for that skill.
    Your Target Number is Attribute + (Skill's Experience)/5,dn.
    The division need only be done and written on the Character
    Sheet after character generation, and when a player gains
    experience in that skill.  Example:
    
      Skill     Aptitude  Total/5=Sk pts
    Melee Combat  _7_     __37_    _7_
    
    This method gives you an average increase of 10.5 experience
    points (2.1 + Attribute) on each skill gain.  This is less than
    your 3, but with the randomness built in there is a range from
    low averages about 5 to high averages around 15 (or 1 to 3) for
    each increase.
    
With the last method (or a modification of it) we can setup an experience
system where PC's in play can gain several experience points before
increaseing their target number..if Jo has a 37, then she needs to gain 3
more points before her Skill number goes up from 7 to 8.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 01:30:11 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Quick Hit Location

On 03/07/97 at 12:25 AM,  pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant) said:

> Without further ado, 1D Hit Location...

> Glenn G.
> --------------------

Glenn, I like it!  I'll be using this...or something *like* this. 

Now, how about a radical idea...use a 1d10 for the Location? That way you
won't have to worry about a different color die.  There's a perfectly good
one in T2300.  


Eris,
    the Heretic

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 97 01:45:25 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

On 03/07/97 at 12:41 AM,  J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com> said:

> If the sword and shield man (or woman) knows how to use their
> shield, it can be used offensively to clear an opponent's weapon
> (sword or rapier), leaving the path open for the sword to strike.
> In reality (history), the shield can become a second weapon capable
> of inflicting a fair amount of damage itself.  A rapier or even a
> heavier blade does not provide much of a push against a shield.
> Many heavier swords also had points, so a Barbarian would not be
> totally unprepared for a thrust.  A fencer would have to depend on
> his reach, speed, and ability to backup quickly.

I haven't been participating in this thread because I don't know *beans*
about the subject...so I don't have a comment, but I do have a question...

The use of broadsword and shield in individual combat died out and was
replaced by rapier and main gauche style combat...right?  Why?

If a sword and shield fighter is so much better than a rapier armed
fighter, why did the change take place?  Was it the pistol and musket?  Was
it improvements in metallurgy allowing thin thrusting weapons that would
stand up to the slashing broadswords?  Was it simply a change in style..it
became "old fashioned" to tote that big shield around?


Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:04:46 -0000
From: "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: [none]

I found a version of Accrete2 on Chritopher Webs' web page here.

Although I have not yet unzipped it.


http://www.mscomm.com/~cwebb/trav.html




- --
Dominic Reynolds                       
                                                         
nz19@dial.pipex.com              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 08:08:34 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Quick Hit Location

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:25:23 -0500 (EST), you wrote:

>                         Hit Location
>=20
>      Location      Superficial  Minor      Major        Critical
>=20
> 1    Leg           Fall         Frac       Impd         Amp 1-3p/r
> 2    Hip/Pelvis                 Frac       Intl 1p/r    Artery 2p/r
> 3    Arm           Drop Items   Frac       Impd         Amp 1-3p/r
> 4    Middle Torso               Intl 1p/r  Intl 2p/r    Spine
> 5    Upper Torso                Intl 1p/r  Intl 2p/r    Lung/Spine
> 6    Head/Neck     Stuns 1 rd   Frac/Impd  Conc/Throat  Brain/Spine

[snip]

> Most hits are received on the side nearest the attacker. When needed, =
roll
> 1D or Right (1-3) or Left (3-6).

The odds for different hit locations only really make sense if you
consider each shot "aimed" for the opponent's chest (hence the 67%
chance of hitting the trunk or head/neck region).

=46or hit locations struck without such intent to aim for the chest (as
with explosions and some animal attacks), a different table might be
required... something along the lines of 1=3DL.Leg, 2=3DR.Leg, 3=3DL.Arm,
4=3DR.Arm, 5=3DChest, and 6=3DHead.

Just MHO.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:44:44 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> I like this much better than KBv1.1.. It's much cleaner and simpler to run.
> This should be the basis for the bug-stomped version of T4

Thanks for the words, Douglas.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:44:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ken Bearden's Task System & Experience

> 	If you adapt the system that each skill choice is worth 3 levels of
> skill but leave the experience system as it is you will have _also_
> fixed the problems with it. 

I have always considered the T4 experience system broken, and Glenn 
knows this.  I do intend to shift my attention towards making a 
better xp system after I get this task system bugged out.

To answer your statement above, I have always, no matter what task 
system I used, intended to fix the way characters receive experience.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:44:45 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> > OK, hit me with your comments!
> 
> <KerWHANNnnnnggggg>
> 
> What I'd like to see is a set of charts, one for each difficulty,
> of skill vs attribute showing % success.

I knew you'd want to see that.  It's on the way.  You're going to 
like the numbers.

> A suggestion for SS/SF: When the number of 6's rolled exceeds the
> number of 1's rolled by 2, Spectacular Failure.  When the number 
> of 1's folled exceeds the number of 6's by the ordinal of the
> task level (1 for easy, 2 for average, 3 for difficult, etc...)
> Spectacular Success!  
> (NOTE: this was just an idea... no statistical analysis went into 
> it.  Intended as a starting point.)

That is an interesting idea.  It's going to be a bear to figure out 
the probabilities associtated with that system.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:44:48 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: re: Blunt Trama Damage

> Perhaps I don't quite understand the rationale behind the max damage 
> rule, but it seems to me that the easiest way to fix the problem is to 
> *not* simply "ignore" damage beyond 3D6.
> 
> I think that for every die of damage "ignored", +1 should be added to the 
> damage roll. Keep blunt trauma as written.
> 
> eg. Getting hit with 6D6 of damage without armour is actually 3D6+3; 4D6 
> is 3D6+1.
> 
> In other words, if you wear AV3 armour and get hit with >= 6D6 damage, 
> amount of damage rolled will be the same as if you were "butt nekkid".

Not true.  If we keep blunt trauma as written, then a butt nekkid 
character (being hit by a 6 D6 weapon) will take 3 D6 damage.  A 
character in flex AV3 armor, though, will take 3 D6 + 3 damage.

Now, why are you saying that a character in armor should take more 
damage than a butt nekkid character?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:44:44 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1028

> While on the subject, I will say that I think reverting to the CT rules as
> the basis for a new game was a big mistake. TNE's mechanics are simply the
> best, most realistic I've ever come across. And the task system is par
> excellence. It functions great and is only marginally more difficult to
> learn and use than that of MT. And the results are far more realistic
> roleplaying.

I was impressed with the ideas and scope in TNE.  It was incredibly 
detailed, and I like a lot of detail in my game.

I just can't agree with you about the mechanics.  I always think of 
TNE as great idea/bad execution.  

Take the combat system, for instance.  The gradual effect that recoil 
has on a shot or a burst of weapon fire during a round was ingenious. 
 The problem is that they just didn't make it too playable.  A 
negative DM, based on your strength and the weapon's recoil factor, 
was a great idea.  It was just hard to keep up with all those DMs.

I like the fact that each bullet was rolled for to see if it hit, but 
keeping up with all of those recoil DMs was a nightmare.  And, you 
had to figure it for each weapon the PC used because it might have 
been different.

Then you make a few hit, and for each one, you have to roll on the 
hit location chart.  

The combat round took a long time to play.

I liked the thoughts put into TNE.  I just wish they would have done 
it differently.  It seemed to me the mechanics were clunky.

I'm glad Traveller has returned to more simple role playing.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:44:49 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: (no subject)

> IMHO My reading is of the rule does not suggest it is broken in the way
> you suggest.
> 
> I read thus
> 1. No weapon does more than 3D damage to a Human. (its a *big game* gun
> after all)

No problem there.  3D is the max damage rule.

> 2. Thus 6D reduces to 3D for a human target.

That's correct.  First you check for armor.  Dam - AV.  That is, 
against a person with no armor, 6D - 0 = 6D.

So, the damage to the human character is 6D, but we can't break the 
max damage rule, so it's reduced to 3D.

> 3. The unarmoured target takes the full 3D

See how this is arrived at above.

> 4a. For a diplo armoured target 3D converts to 3 points damage (1 for
> each die stopped but; blunt trauma)

No.  Penetration is calculated by subtracting armor AV from weapon's 
damage.  In your big game rifle example above, this would be:

	6D - 3D = 3D.

This doesn't break the 3D max rule, so we are OK.  Damage to 
character is 3D.

> 4b. For a rigid armoured target - No damage

So, under how you are reading it, a big game rifle (6D damage) vs 
rigid AV 3 armor will do no damage?

No.   This will do 3D damage, but no additional blunt trauma damage 
because it is rigid.

> Here is where I lose my way a bit: What is the point of rigid armour
> with an AV greater than 3 (excepting shotguns etc) if AV3 instantly
> deflects all projectiles without harm to the wearer.

This is where you are making your mistake.  Let's take a big game 
rifle and Flex AV4 armor.  Under the rules as written, you'd take:

	6D damage - 4 armor value = 2D damage to character.  This does not 
break the max damage rule.  Since it is flex armor, we add one point 
of damage for each die the armor absorbed.  The armor absorbed 4 die 
of damage (the remining two die penetrated the armor and did damage 
to the character).  That means the character takes 2D + 4 points of 
damage.

> OK your shot!

Now that you are reading the rule correctly, let's look at two 
characters--one armored, one not.

			Big game rifle vs flex AV 3 armor.

As written, this would be 3D + 3 damage.

			Big game rifle vs no armor.

Because of the max damage rule, the character would only take 3D 
damage.

My fix is to consider blunt trauma damage and not allow it to break 
the max damage rule.

In other words, if the character is already taking 3D damage due to 
no or low armor value, blunt trauma damage is just dropped.

If the damage pentrating the armor is below the 3D mark, then blunt 
trauma damage is figured.

Do you follow me on this?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1037
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1038



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: resource fiction
Re: resource fiction
Re: Another review of M0
Emergency Herald Needed!
Sword fighting
Re: Iceberg Lettuce
Re: G-loads
Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Future swordfighting
re: Heresy
Re: Assorted
Re: Accrete program
Re: re; Accrete program
Re: Alien Book (Longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:44:41 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> Nice work, Kenneth! I've been looking at the probabilities your new version
> generates, and they aren't bad at all, as far as I've checked.
> 
> I applaud the elimination of the half dice, and the simplicity of your
> solution. I also notice you've opted for a 3:1 stat to skill ratio, which
> just happens to be what I've finally settled on for the D66 system - so
> we're in perfect agreement there.

Thanks a lot, Glenn.  It means a lot coming from you--someone whose 
rules I admire and use.

> I still object to throwing and adding buckets of dice as the Difficulty
> rises, but 7D for Impossible is certainly preferable to 10D or some of the
> other suggestions that have been made (jokingly and seriously).

Well, I didn't want to change too drastically from T4.  It was 
obvious to me that Marc is looking to fix the T4 system, so I wanted 
KBv2.0 to resemble that system--not be a totally new concept that he 
wouldn't look at.

> If I hadn't (sort of) solved the Task problem to my own satisfaction with
> the D66 system, I would certainly use your system. And I think Marc could
> do worse than adopt it for future editions of T4.

Thanks.  If we don't discover any bugs, I hope he'll consider taking a look at
it.

> A suggestion for the Spectacular Success and Failure problem: for each task
> roll, make sure two of the dice are distinct from the others, either a
> different color, or rolled separately - make these the critical die: two
> ones on these dice is a SpecSuccess, two sixes a SpecFailure.
> 
> That's just off the top of my head, but I doubt there's a simpler solution.

Another good idea.  I'm being hit with several for the SS/SF 
calc.  I've got some ideas of my own, but I am by no means sold on 
any one particular idea yet.  I'll have to work on it.

> I'd say KBv2.0 looks pretty good at first glance.

Great.  Thanks, Glenn.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:44:47 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> Ken, I didn't like v1.1. But, I like v2.0. By Jove, I think you've done 
> it! Finally no more pesky half-dice. Just one small calc that can be done 
> before the game, and one (simple addition) during the game.

Glenn, the jumpspace man...thanks!

> Heck, let's just do away with that first calc and say during character 
> generation that each skill choice is worth 3 levels of skill... (I guess 
> there is some heretic in me ;-) That might be a good thing for a new 
> experience system... incremental advances of 1 to character "experience" 
> as you called it.

Good idea.  I need to think about an experience system fix while 
banging out the bugs in KBv2.0.

> You've given skills:attributes a 3:1 ratio, which imho is reasonable. If 
> I understand correctly, KBv1.1 ratio was 4:1, which was a bit much, 
> methinks.

Actually, KBv1.1 ended up meaning about the same to the target number 
as attributes, so if you look at it that way, KBv1.1 was on a 1:1 
ratio--the skill level was adjusted up and the attribute was adjusted 
down so that they would meet in the middle.  

			Stat-7; Skill-2
			Target Number is 8.

		Stat contributes 4 points to that;  Skill contributes 4 points to 
		that.  In this way, KBv1.1 has both skills and stats contributing 
		about the same to the target number--50%.

In KBv2.0, skills are definitely more dominate than attributes, but 
not by much.

		Stat-7;  Skill-2
		Target Number is 13.

		Stat contributes 7 points of that;  Skill contributes 6 points of 
		that.  This is just about 50% contribution also, but the spread 
		gets much larger at the higher skill levels.
 

> Send me the numbers, and if convinced that the percentages are reasonable 
> (the Plain Jane sample seemed sound), I will number among the converted!

Cool!  I'll be posting the numbers soon.


> I don't know which direction you're thinking of going with that, but I 
> suggest keeping it simple. Say, three sixes means SF. Or three sixes and 
> a failed throw.

I agree that it needs to be simple, but the method you propose will 
have the chance of SS going up the harder the difficulty.  That 
doesn't make sense to me.  I need SS to stay even or go down whereas 
SF needs to stay even or go up.

> For SS, maybe If the roll is less than the number of dice thrown + skill 
> level, then Succeed Spectacularly? This makes SS ridiculously easy at the 
> low end, (A Good Thing, imho, a skilled person *should* succeed 
> spectacularly when handed the routine.) It also ties the chance for 
> spectacular success to skill level, and not purely "luck of the roll".

More thoughts to look at.  Hmm.


> I'll look more deeply into your system. On the surface though, it seems 
> perfeito.

Please do.  That's what I'm putting it here for.  If it is not 
perfeito, then maybe we can make it so.  Or.. maybe it's back to the 
drawing board.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:44:46 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> On 03/05/97 at 01:38 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:
> 
> > 1)  THE DIFFICULTY CODES:
> 
> > Change the difficutly codes to match these.  Notice that I am only  using
> > whole dice--no more half die!
> 
> > 	Easy:       2D/Auto
> > 	Average:    3D
> > 	Difficult:  4D
> > 	Formidable: 5D
> > 	Staggering: 6D
> > 	Impossible: 7D
> 
> Except for me calling Difficult, Hard and having a 1d Auto level this
> matches up with my suggestion..so I *must* like it.  ;->

I haven't seen anybody propose (3 X skill) + stat yet.   Also, I 
haven't seen anybody talk about starting at 2D and moving up.

As far as starting at 1D, then you'd have to change all the codes to 
1-6D.  Our target numbers are too high for this.

I tried (2 x skill) + stat, using the 1-6D difficulty codes, but I 
had a problem at the lower end.  Stat-7, Skill-2 characters were 
making Average rolls at 100% and a high percentage on Difficult 
throws.

I knew that wouldn' do, so I worked with 3 x skill and used the 2-7D 
codes.

The percentages come out good, albeit high level skill is really 
rewarded at the high end.

Marc's been talking about putting some type of limit on how many 
skills a character can get.  I don't know how yet--maybe the old 
Int+Edu ceiling.  He also said that he would like to try to "fix" 
character generation to where it was not so easy to raise skills to 
level 9 during character generation.

If he can fix this, the high end won't be as bad with this system.

As far as changing the title of the Difficult category, I have no 
opinion on that.  Whatever they call them is fine with me.


> Ok, 3 times skill level...simple enough, but 3 is high for a flat rate.

It seems a little high, but look at how many dice you are throwing.  
This actually does two things.  One, it boosts the target number up 
far enough to where we can get good percentages using those dice, and 
two, it does increase the value of skills.

I don't care what all the attribute people say.  Skill is more 
important than attribute.  Experience, training, and skill education 
are what improves a person along with natural ability.

I see natural ability as staying somewhat constant, whereas skill is 
increased with practice and learning.


> Alternative ideas
> 
> 1.  Rather than write down skill levels just directly add three to
>     skill experience total each time you gain that skill.  Simpler
>     than a multiplication at the end.
>     
> 2.  4/3/2/1-1-1 First level of skill is worth 4, second is worth 3,
>     etc.  Boosts low levels, but keeps top end from blowing out the
>     scale.  Mid level PC's match up pretty well with your scale.  It
>     also models learning curve better than a flat 3.

Hmm.  Worth some thought.

> 3.  Aptitudes for each skill (you knew I had to throw this one in
>     didn't you ;->).  First time a skill is gained roll 2d6 and
>     write the number down next to skill name, this is your Skill
>     Aptitude.  Each time a skill level is gained roll a 1d6, add it
>     and your Skill Aptitude to your total experience for that skill.
>     Your Target Number is Attribute + (Skill's Experience)/5,dn.
>     The division need only be done and written on the Character
>     Sheet after character generation, and when a player gains
>     experience in that skill.  Example:

I actually played around with aptitude.  I dropped it for two 
reasons.  One, it is just not in the Traveller rules now and never 
has been.  It's a totally new concept, and I think it would be a hard 
sell for Marc.

Second, in my method of using aptitude, I still had the 
(pilot-4/dex-6) vs (pilot-1/dex-10) problem.

Here's what I tried.  Instead of using the flat 3 multiplier for 
skills, aptitude for each skill would be chosen.  These would range 
from 0-6--a 0 meaning absolutely no aptitude, and a 6 meaning the 
utmost aptitude.

The difficulty codes stay the same, but the target number calculation 
becomes:

	aptitude + skill + attribute = target number

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 05:31:55 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: resource fiction

>>So: what fiction do you like for resource material?  I've already obliquely
>>suggested "The Count of Monte Christo" just because I think you could
>>retell that story in a Traveller-Imperium setting easily and well.

_The Rim of Space_ and _The Ship From Outside_ by A. Bertram Chandler

I don't think anyone's mentioned David Drake's _Slammer's_ series, of course.

_The Mind Traders_ by J. Hunter Holly for a world based on psionic slavery

Gobs of Cordwainer Smith (e.g. "Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons"

Having my players read (and watch) _Das Boot_  by Buchheim has not only
given them something enjoyable to do <g> but has helped give them a  feel
for just why they might want to get the hell out of their little crammed to the
gills Scout Ships and Free Traders occasionally....  :-)

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:42:07 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: resource fiction

        Well, somebody else already detailed all my literary resource
fiction, but...
        I humbly suggest that those of you who can find the copies take a
look at the Epic-published "Alien Legion" comic series. It is one of the
more "travelleresque" fiction pieces that I ever read, specially the early ones.
        Also, back to the literary branch...

        Jack Williamson's "Space Legion".
        Jack Vance's stuff: everything! The detail he puts into the worlds
is such that, once you read the novel, you got all the details for a
campaign already worked out. Specially, Giant Planet, the
Chasch/Wankh/Dirdir/Pnume "Adventure Planet" series, and the "Demon Princes"
saga (warning: possibly wrong translation, back from the Spain title). In
fact, I noticed that the name "Alphanor", corresponding to one main world on
this last saga, has already been used to name a planet in the Solomani Rim IIRC.
        
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:36:07 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Another review of M0

Joe Walsh wrote:

>IG has asked that CORE re-write The Long Way Home into a 2-part adventure
>(each part being 64 pages).

Can we ask why?  For me it was ideal as a single book of 100 pages.

While nigh on 30 pages more sound goodin theory, if you consider
that the margins of TLWH were very tight, I struggle to imagine
there being very much new material.

Is this simply a way of making more money from the adventure?



>  Andy and David (the original authors of
>TLWH) are working on that now.

<loud cheering from the sidelines> Rah! Rah! Rah!


tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:57:40 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Emergency Herald Needed!

[Gosh, more SCA<->Traveller stuff]

If there are any heralds out there within the sound of my voice can you
write back immediately if you can blazon the Imperial coat of arms. I need
it for the heraldry section in PE. My best guess was:

Sable, an annulet on a bezant rayony.
A black field, a black ring on a gold disk rayony.

Anyone with something better?

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:55:00 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Sword fighting

For the record, I _am_ a SCA fighter with about 7 years experience. I just
fought in a war with several hundred others two weeks ago.

fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain) writes:
>whenever they fought against someone with a background in fencing, their
opponent
>(the fencer) usually had problems working around their shields.
     Classic fencing stance is right side forward holding the sword
pointing at the enemy with the left hand back for balance. This is because
the fencers' sword is their primary defense and that has to be closest to
the enemy. To do a thrust they must either lunge their entire body forward.
     Boradsword fighters (generally) stand with the left side forward and
the right side back. This keeps their primary defense (their shield)
closest to the enemy. To do a thrust/strike they just have to swing rather
than move their body closer or further away.
     That is why fencers get confused initially fighting broadsword and why
broadsword fighters get confused fencing. (ever see a broadsworder throw a
snap-shot with an epee? Ouch!) It only takes a month or two to train out of
it though, so I wouldn't over emphasise it.

>With regards to my assertion about the relative strengths of the weapons,
     I would never want to get into a pushing contest with a weapon. If
someone weapon-presses me I'd rather side-step, let them go with their
force, then wrap shot them in the back.

"William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com> writes:
>2) Shields are pretty hard to use in hallways.
     I beg to differ. A hallway isn't that much different from a bridge
battle. (Because of the lack of fighters we do a lot of narrow bridge
battles in Ireland :-) It all depends on what sort of action you are
trying. For example at Estrella (the afore mentioned war) I was in this
totally amazing shield wall. Duchess Elena had one row of shields kneeling.
Then a second row standing between them overlapping half-way. Like scale
armour. We withstood five Outland charges and only lost about one or two
people to their twelve per charge.
     So, if you want to hold a position, sheilds are pefrect in a hallway.
You need pole-arm backup, though. You can't kill much if you are in a
shield wall. The traveller equivalent of pole-arms would be ranged weapons,
ie. rifles. Place your vanguard of tri-tanium shields in front and have
your snipers shoot around and over them. Developing this:
     Consider a high tec shield. Make it from some high armour value but
light material. A scutum (Roman Refrigerator Door) is probably the best.
Mount a micro-camera and simple inertial relay on the outer surface. That
way if the shieldtroop blinds themself physically the computer can
compenstate by projecting a virtual view onto their heads-up helmet array.
Line the edges so that they can _lock_ with neighbouring shields on user
command. Possibly also with hullmetal walls and floors too. Late imperial
shields might have grav-compensation (like FGMPs) so extra armour-weight
can be carried or else to withstand extra enemy force.
     Then add loopholes. Second rank "pikemen" lock their ACRs into the
loopholes, standing or kneeling. If they are on battle-feed their heads-up
can show them a picture, with target, through the shields the same as the
troopers. They can then fire at will through their defense at the enemy
with very good cover.
     I can't think of a better way to take a corridor!

>3) Shields do get in your way when swinging a sword...
     It depends on what you are doing and what sort of sword you use. If
you are using a scutum like war-shield, sure it is rather a challange to
fight around. Also if you are 1-1 with someone they can use your shield for
their defense (I've done this, hee hee).
     However if you have a tourney shield, like a small heater, italian
half-round, round shield or (god forbid) a buckler, there should be little
trouble. I use an italian half-round (bunny round) and I can't think of any
shot that I would do substantially differently if I wasn't using a shield.
I'd probably bring my sword position much further forward to pick up some
defense. But then my offense would suffer accordingly.

>4) shields require about half as much training as a sword for effective
use.
I might quibble and say 1/3 :-). However it is an important point that most
people miss: you need training in a shield to use a shield effectively.
Like in AD&D I'm the only ref I know that makes people take a proficiency
in shield! I'd probably do the same in Traveller if the subject ever came
up.

Seamus Donn, AoA, Linquist Ring, (Pelican after tomorrow)
MKA Jo Grant

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 20:55:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Iceberg Lettuce

In mail you write:

> Why use alcohol as an antifreeze??
>         Founder (Terra:north Atlantic ocean) creates an antifreeze 
> enzyme to prevent freezing.

Some plants use alcohols and glycols as antifreezes.

> There is no need to create far fetched explanations. Terra biology 
> provides the clue to understanding xeno-biology!

Yep!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:59:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: G-loads

In mail you write:

> I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE AND FLIGHT SCHOOL that the AVERAGE private pilot
> will frequently do sustained 2 and 3 G turns, and that 4 G turns are no
> problem (tight circles, on the 20 second range, in a Cessna, generate over
> 3 G) for short periods.

And numerous carnival rides pull 2-4 g for varying periods.

> Jet Fighters can generate upwards of 12 G transient loads, but most wings
> are designed for 10-11 G loading. Most military pilots are required to
> function at 6 G's for short periods (transient loads). G-suits are standard
> issue for jet-jockeys, but aren't needed for 6-G transient loads (T-33
> orientation rides for CAP cadets pull 5-6 G maneuvers, and do NOT issue
> G-suits).
>
> Apollo-Saturn V missions generated 11 G for 5 minutes, without G-Suits.
> Nobody could move, but nobody AFAIK passed out.

Ok, here's where we get into the important details. It makes a *major*
difference which *direction* the g-forces are in. Pilots are taking
"vertical" g loads. That is, "down" is from their head towards their
feet.

Astronauts are taking *transverse* g-loads. That is, "down", is from
their chest to their back. 

You can take a *lot* more transverse Gs than vertical ones. 12 g is
about the limit for vertical *80* is the limit for transverse (from
rocket sled tests). 40 tranverse Gs for a short period won't do much
worse than give you black eyes. 

Note that "fighters" in *space* will be pulling transverse Gs, not
vertical.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:19:27 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

        MMT states that, apart from the shotgun, a weapon cannot make more
than 3D damage to an individual, and the reason is that higheer energy
attacks punch right through the target, wasting energy. Well, maybe, but,
even if we take it, is not true that we are thinking of ordinary humans here?
        Think, for instance <g> on the Geonee. In Survival Margin, the
Margaret-loyal noble which orders the Geoneecide defends himself saying that
the Geonee are ravagers and that is very difficult to catch them alive,
because, as they are shorter than other humans, the probability of causing
them serious wounds is higher...
        Whether this argument was just a political defence or not, the
reasoning sounds good. In fact, I am assuming that the max. damage that a
Geonee can receive is 4D rather than 3D. And, well, this immediately raises
the question: Is the Max.Damage rule race-related? Which races will fit into
the 3D, and which will go to 4D? Will some race qualify for a 2D max.? As a
preliminary thought, I think that maybe Droyne/Chirpers will go for 4D, but
that most of the major races will reasonably be 3D (Aslan, Vargr, most
humans). But, what about Hivers? I do not know much about them, but maybe
their symmetric configuration makes them less prone to receive serious
wounds (several "copies" of important internal organs), and *maybe* they
would be candidates for a 2D max. Dmg Rule.
        Comments?
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:37:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Future swordfighting

Doctor Vince writes:
>Well, desperation tactics do work pretty well sometimes. However, there is
>no way that the broadswordsman can attack without leaving *something*
>vulnerable. Most often (and again, I find it common when someone is relying
>on a shield) this is the sword arm. Often it is the face as well, which
>would really suck...

One thought occurs to me: Wouldn't it be possible, using today's technology,
to make some sort of light-weight armor sleve/gaultlet that would protect a
swordfighter from a fencing weapon? How about future materials technology?
How much would a crystal-iron gauntlet and greave weigh?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:34:55 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: re: Heresy

>From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)

>I've got no problem with TNE on the list. Personally, the background
>interests me. i'd really like to know where the plot was going after all
>the hints in the Regency Sourcebook and Survival Margin (IMO the best ever
>MT supplement even if it was meant to be TNE!).

       I agree 100%. I've got SM in july and I am still recovering from the
content. Also, it is now one of the major reference books I use for the
Rebellion period <g>.

>I don't use the rules (too
>complex for my style of play) but I haven't got a problem with seeing stuff
>here.

        I do not use TNE rules, either, but like the background, and see
absolutely no reason to vinculate both things. The TNE background, and, for
that matter, any canon/noncanon Milieu, is just background, and you can use
it with whatever rules you like. Even though my favorite Milieu is The
Rebellion (old MT ref...), I am also interested in all the other
backgrounds. But, even if you are not interested in more than one Milieu, it
would always easier to use material from another TRAVELLER Milieu than from
Star Wars, right?

> I'd certainly prefer odd TNE articles to the interminal posts on T4's
>tasks that we've had over the last fifty odd digests. <g>

        I am not personally very much interested in the Task system threads,
either, but I like to know that there are people thinking and discussing
hard on that matter, so that if I need to make a decision on the issue, I
can go through past digests and find something useful. And the same applies
to almost every Traveller thread that one is not interested on at the moment.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 06:00:19 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re: Assorted

>Joseph "Chepe" Lockett said:

>> >Lessee, Famine, Plague, Pestilence...what's the fourth one?  Bad Table
>> >Manners?

>War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death, if I recall correctly.

Nope. It's War, Famine, Pestilence and Willingness to Discuss Lobbing
Accelerated Rocks at Planets.

John Kovalic


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:28:14 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Accrete program

- -> Weeeell, not quite. A couple months ago I worked with the developer of
- -> Accrete and asked him to allow some input. He sent me a zipped file of
- -> version 3.0 which allows the physical aspect of the main world to be
- -> keyed in (I think). I have yet to unzip it though but I'll be happy to
- -> send the file to anyone who wants to play with it.
Well, i would be interested! I would very much like to try it out, so 
i'd be very glad if you could mail it to me!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 22:26:24 -0500
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: re; Accrete program

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 

> Wow...I ran it about twenty times before I got a habitable planet, and
> then it was one with a thin atmosphere. (Only .25 atm) OTOH runaway
> greenhouse effects are quite common.
> 

You did well.  I never did find a humanly habitable planet running that
program. 

However, what is to say there wouldn't possibly be other forms of life
there besides humanoid?

- -- 
PGP Fingerprint = D6 74 56 8E FB 52 4E DD  5C 3F 32 FE AE 1F 1C D0

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email) peterb@cyber-wizard.com (play Email)%%
%% "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"  %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 14:36:03 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Alien Book (Longish)

>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>

>I like some of Carlos' thoughts on Alien books.  I'd go for each volume
>covering one major race, one minor human race, and two additional (non-
>human) minor races.  So, for example....

        Thanks. In order to keep the variety you suggest, I think that it
would be better to relate the humanity/nonhumanity of the minor races to the
humanity/nonhumanity of the major race covered, either to balance all
supplementes or to distingush between human-oriented sourcebooks and
nonhuman-oriented ones.
        Anyway, four races seem too much for a book if you really want
detail. A 96-page book could be easily split in 48-24-24 for useful material
on a major and two minor races, but tha page count could drop too much with
more races involved. One possibility is to include the less important races
as a "colour addition", let's say for a page count of 46,23,23,4 or
soemthing similar.

>VILANI (good for Milieu 0, Milieu Ziru Sirka, etc.) covers them, the
>	Suerrat (who may, as Marc describes, play a major role in Year 0 
>        galactic politics), and, say, the Tahavi and, um, Newts?
        Of course I have to argue in favor of the Geonee here, but that
makes too much human races in the volume. Nevertheless, Milieu-zero seems to
be the most human-dominated of the Milieux, right? The Newts would be an
interesting recovery.

>VARGR (which it sounds like the Powers That Be really want to bring out 
>	soon), features them plus the Answerin (who are right up there
>	in the neighborhood), the Brinn, and, er, a new one.
        Well, the Answerin are surrounded by Vilani, not Vargr. As for the
"new one", recall the Hhkar, in the middle of the Julian area.

        I would definitely argue for Vilani/ Suerrat&Geonee as a Milieu 0
background book, but, as an alternative, given that what IG currently plans
is Aslan/Vargr, I would suggest to keep the Vargr as an upcoming release and
publish TWO books featuring Vilani, Vargr, and the more M:0 relevant minor
races. After all, the Vargr are known since Ziru Sirka times, right?
        A proposal could be:

        VILANI / Geonee  / Newts / Bonus: Answerin
        VARGR  / Suerrat / Hhkar / Bonus: Brinn

        i.e. one major race plus two minor (one human, one nonhuman)
supplement, and one bonus (human first, nonhuman second).

>ASLAN (heralding Milieu:200, I'd suppose) rings in those honor-bound
>	folks, along with the Geonee (who are presumably involved in
>	"taking back" that region of space), perhaps the Ahetaowa,
>	and the Ormine.

        Hmmmm.... in Milieu:200, the Geonee are just a group of absorbed
worlds, after the Pacification Campaigns, but their presence as an Imperial
race would certainly be significant rimward. Specially, as "fleeing
refugees" from Imperial occupation. The Gerontocracy of Ormine seems
interesting, although I am not sure they have been developed too much, but
who are the Ahetaowa? I would rather see here the Darrian, which have a 10%
of biological Aslan after the 600's. This makes theem not strictly M:200,
but makes the book more coherent. As for a Bonus, I would like to see a
write-up on the Zhodia colonies, those biologically human Aslan.
        I.e., ASLAN / Ormine / Darrian / Bonus: Zhodia colonies

>SOLOMANI provides information on them, whatever minor branch of humaniti
>	is closest (hasn't been developed much!), the Vegans, and, hm,
>	maybe the triplet of neo-chimps / neo-dolphins, / neo-orcas.

        The perfect place for a "Geeneric" article on Geneered races. And,
as a Bonus, what about some words on the Solomani-originated Sword Worlders?
        That is, SOLOMANI / Vegans / Geneered races/ Bonus: Sworld Worlders.

(Snip Hivers / K'kree books: too soon to speak of them, right?)

>ZHODANI writes them up, plus the Darrians, and the Addaxur, and some 
>	new bunch.
        What about the Vlazhdumecta?. That would be instead of the Darrians
(which I prefer in the Aslan book). As for some new bunch, and as a bonus,
maybe it would be interesting to see something on a minor race splitting
from a major one different from humanity... let's say the
psionically-oriented, feared Roth Thokken, plus some words on the
Zhodani-influenced Vargr psionics.

        So: ZHODANI / Vlazhdumecta / Addaxur / Bonus: Roth Thokken

>DROYNE lays out the castes and structure, describes, presumably, some
>	Droyne/Chirper-connected offshoot of humaniti, and then details
>	two more minor species.
        "Some Droyne/Chirper-connected offshoot of humaniti..." the Geonee
qualify quite well here, but I don't see them in the Droyne book. It would
be good to see the Chirpers as a minor race, with specific details of their
generation. After all, most characters do not know about their connection.
And, this will save space on the Droyne part to speak about the Ancients period.
        The Droyne are scattered all around, so it could be interesting to
put some also scattered, bizarre races with them, e.g. the Jigd-Il-Jagd
(warning: probable misspelling). As for humans, well...... I do not really
see any interesting minor human race fitting here. I would rather see, as a
bonus, details on the forgotten race whose Gaadaskikaduu ruins were shown in
Knightfall. IIRC, they were known as the "primordials".

        To summarize, a proposed plan would be:

        1. VILANI / Geonee  / Newts / Bonus: Answerin
        2. VARGR  / Suerrat / Hhkar / Bonus: Brinn
        3. ASLAN / Ormine / Darrian / Bonus: Zhodia colonies
        4. SOLOMANI / Vegans / Geneered races/ Bonus: Sworld Worlders
        5. ZHODANI / Vlazhdumecta / Addaxur / Bonus: Roth Thokken
        6. DROYNE / Chirpers / Jigd-Il-Jagd / Bonus: Primordials

        Maybe we could reach a consensus and forward it to IG before they
release that Aslan/Vargr book... ;-)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1038
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1039



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

064-0001:  News from the Rim
Re: Melee Wpns
Re: Another review of M0
Re: What happened....
Re: Real Background
Re: List Split?
Re: Emergency Herald Needed!
THUDDD Merc Cruiser Competition...
[Traveller Answer] QSDS 1.5 Jump Drive
Re: Sword fighting
Re: All things Nastiness 
Why go from Wpn&Shield to Rapier
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
How Many Women On TML
Re: Accrete program
Re: Sword fighting
Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?
Rumours and Lies?!
Re: Battledress

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 97 22:55:51 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: 064-0001:  News from the Rim

064-0001
Alpher/Solomani Rim:  Crashland City News Service

  Local shipbuilder Maximum Burn IG announced the completion of its
first major new warship design today, the Tencendur-class Cruiser. 
The new cruiser is designed to carry light mercenary units or strike
teams into low-intensity combat areas.  It mounts an impressive
arsenal of weaponry and defenses, and can hold its own in ship-to-ship
actions.
  Design specs were released concurrently with the press announcement:
  
Tencendur (Strife)-class Merc Cruiser

Tencendur-class Merc Cruiser

Tons:  1000 Std		Volume:  14000 kl					Cost:  740 MCr
Crew:  43				High/Mid Pass:  0/32 Troops			Low:  0
Cargo:  51.2 Std		Controls:  DynaLink (Bridge, High Auto)	TL:  12

9 Size						3 Jump Drive (100 Std/Pc Fuel)
							3 Maneuver (Thrusters, 750 MW)
2x2 251Mj Laser (+4) 1/3-2-2-0	3 Power Plant (2x1000 MW, 2x100 MW,
1x50 MW)
1x4 95Mj Laser  (+4) 1/3-2-0-0	312.9 Fuel (Scoop 100, Refine 200/day)
1x2 Msl Barbette(+4) 10/10		0 Meson Screens
  w/10 Guided DetLaser 1d6/2 6G12	2 Sandcasters (30 cans each)
 							2 Nuke Dampers (5 range, 5 rating)
							A10 P4 J10 Sensors (Masked)
2x Docking Rings (Dropship)		40 Armor		18 Structure
1x Sickbay
2x 10 Std Missile Magazines

Crew Detail:  	4 Command, 2 Maneuver, 1 Medic, 1 Steward, 6 Engineers,
8 Gunners
			4 Electronics
			
Ship=B9s Troops:	32 Troops, 4 Officers, 8 DropShip crew, 4 Small
Vehicle Crew

Crew Quarters:	43 Small Staterooms (Crew, Squad Leaders, Vehicle and
Flight Crew)
			32 Bunks (Troops)

  The Tencendur Cruiser is built using the same hull design as the
Kestrel-class Cruiser (rolled out late last year by CBW, Inc) and
makes extensive use of automation to reduce crew complement.  Each of
the weapon batteries are controlled from the bridge by MFDs, but can
be locally controlled if necessary and if enough crew is available.
  Subordinate craft carried are two Viper-class Assault Landing Craft,
each with its own docking ring.  The Viper craft are designed to fit
into standard 50 Std docking rings, so if necessary, standard 50 Std
Modular Cutters can be used instead.  The docking rings are partially
open to the bottom to allow quick release of the dropships.  Each
dropship carries one military-type G-carrier or APC.
  The cargo hold is capable of carrying heavy military equipment and
other cargoes, such as ammunition and artillery.
  The ship is capable of providing orbital fire support for ground
units, using the missile battery and long-range sensors.  Its jamming
suite is capable of performing stand-off jamming operations and
providing ECM coverage for ground and space units in addition to
standard assault fire support missions.

- ----------

Viper-class Assault Landing Craft

Tons:  50 Std (Cylinder AF)	Volume:  700 kl				Cost:  75.995MCr
Crew:  4					High/Mid Pass:  0/20			Low:  0
Cargo:  7.8 Std			Controls:  DynaLink (High Auto)	TL:  12

7 Size							0 Jump Drive
								6 Maneuver Drive (Thrusters, 75 MW)
1x  251Mj Laser Barbette (+4) 1/2-2-1-0	5 Power Plant (1x 100MW, 1x
25MW Fusion)
								1.34 Fuel
								A4 P4 J0 Sensors (Masked)
1x  G-Carrier/ATV Hangar (min, 8 Std)	30 Armor	8 Structure

Crew Detail:	1 Command, 1 Maneuver, 1 Gunnery, 1 Electronic
			16 Troops, 2 Officers, 2 Vehicle Crew

Accommodations:	4x Standard Workstations, 20x Adequate Seats (3.5kl
each)

  The Viper is a light, fast landing craft designed to carry two
squads of marines or mercenaries into hot or cold drop zones from
orbit.  It carries a single, 4 Std ATV or G-Carrier and 16 troops, 2
squad leaders and their equipment.  The vehicle bay opens to the rear
of the craft so the vehicles can be released without launching the
Viper from its carrier.
  The ship uses Contragrav units in addition to its Thruster drives in
order to get the maximum possible accelleration under planetary
assault conditions.  Its wings are designed to fold close to the
fuselage of the ship for easy storage within a docking ring or hangar.


- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\      "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________
        odysseus@novia.net
  http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:48:19 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns

>The use of broadsword and shield in individual combat died out
>and was replaced by rapier and main gauche style combat...right?  Why?
    It all has to do with social class and structure. A noble was basically
someone who could field troops for their monarch. This was done differently
in different ages.
    In the Dark and Middle ages the nobles lead their troops personally
from their own lands. Peasants trooped around with shields, simple helmets,
and spears, axes and the like. The nobles went around with proper armour,
shields and swords. Consequently when it came to dues (al la Ivanhoe) that
is what they fought with.
    Later in the renaissance a noble was more likely to pay for troops with
their cash rather than raise and lead them personally. Peasants now trooped
around with pikes while officers and nobles discarded their armour due to
obselescence of gunpowder. In this era a noble's military prowess was more
tactics and face to face slogging. You also no longer displayed ones wealth
by having expensive armour but rather by having expensive clothes.
Consequently when duels were then fought the used the more courtly weapons
they were familiar with: rapier.

  If you put a Middle age broadsword and shield fighter against a
renaissance rapier and main gauche my bets would be on the broadsword and
shield. However there were very few social contexts in the renaissance
where you could comfortably lug around the appropriate middle age
equipment!

  If you trace further down history you find duels being fought with
pistols for a similar sequence of reasons.

  In a traveller setting the only weapon you can bear in polite society is
a sword. This is why duels are fought with swords. [In my own campaign
there are high-tech swords as well, like vibro-swords and light-sabres :-]

    Cheers,
       Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 06:59:47 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Another review of M0

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> >IG has asked that CORE re-write The Long Way Home into a 2-part adventure
> >(each part being 64 pages).
> 
> Can we ask why?  For me it was ideal as a single book of 100 pages.

I believe the idea was that the average person will be more likely to buy 
a smaller, less-expensive adventure than a larger, $24 adventure.  Thus, 
splitting it into 2 parts, and having some resolution at the end of the 
first part.  If they want to go on and buy the second,great. If not, they 
still have a suitable adventure.

So sayeth Tim Brown.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 23:40:37 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: What happened....

> Virus was devastating. What did it do to Terra, Vland and Capital...? Terra

The hints were given that planets that had a history at low tech (such
as Terra did, from 0 to 15 with examples kept in museums), were better
able to survive the collapse than others, because in many cases they had
written records they could bootstrap with, or use as fallback positions.

In my campaing, terra had formed the New Earth Union, a Tech 13 pocket
empire. (small pocket empire).

I strongly suspect that the same will have happened for Vland, and other
homeworlds where all tech levels were progressed through.

> particularly interests me, especially as I have a genuine 2300 beanstalk

Yeah, what a Great Game, I've given up on T4 at the moment, my group are
enjoying the simple task system, and really enjoying shooting up Kafers.

> there in my campaign. I suspect that the various racial homeworlds were
> wiped out.

In some cases perhaps, but I think homeworlds have a much greater chance
of survival, and even recovery (to a small extent)

In my campiagn the Vegans were still kicking around, many of them
remebered the collapse (200yr lifespan), and have been able to recover
with remarkable speed. Unfortunately they are all smarting from the
centuries of injustice applied by humanity, this virus thing being the
final straw. 
Humanity can go to hell, the time of the Vegans is here.
 
> Ignoring the deaths (30 Trillion? 30,000,000,000,000?), which is not that
> easy, just think about all that lost knowledge. And then expand that to all
> the races bordering the Imperium. That's what got me about the TNE setting.

Yeah, what happened to the K'kree, the Aslan, or the frontiers of the
Solomani Rim.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 00:03:39 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Real Background

William F. Hostman wrote:
> 
> Harry Spewed forth the following tripe:

> >no... 1192 - 1204 !!!  The REALLY real background
> 
> Hmm... 1977- 1990 vs 1990-1995... 13 years vs 5... I think you have a
> misconception, mon frer...
> 
> ;-)

Actually William, I was trying to point out (and poorly at that), that
it is ALL real background, and I would like to see it ALL supported one
way or the other.
I think this Mileu Zero stuff is really exiting, at the moment I have
the Imperial interests in one subsector being opposed by the Sustan
Republic, heres some library data on them.


Sustan Republic (-350 to 10) 
Hostile Interstellar Republic on the borders of the Third Imperium. 
The Sustan Republic was formed when the Sustan colony of the Perdash
Kingdom declared it's independence and formed itself into a Republic.
It's main effect was the overthrow of the Solomani aristocracy of the
world, and the establishment of an elected system of government with two
houses, (a house of congress and a senate), and governed by a President
who is elected every six years.
Sustan Republic policy has been shaped through it's history by the
perceived threat of foreign and domestic enemies. In it's earliest days
it lived in terror of being reabsorbed by the Perdash Kingdom. It's
campaign to ensure it's sovereignty was so successful it ended up
incorporating the worlds of the former kingdom into it's territory. This
policy has continued to this day, until the Republic takes up just over
four subsectors in territory, and continues to grow, very slowly.
The Republic firmly believes in central control, all worlds of the
Republic are representative democracies, electing a governor for a six
year term, who has control of most of the government of that world, but
not of any Republic facilities or  armed forces, (they do control the
police, and also have the ability to call on the local military
reserves, the National Guard).
The Republic is unique for two reasons. The first reason is that it is
the only other culture that the Imperium has met which has achieved
TL-12 by itself since the long night. The second is the Republic regards
any territory outside of a worlds 100 diameter limit as interstellar
territory, and therefore open to all travellers. It bases this on a
tradition that started in it's wars with the Perdash Kingdom, and the
fact that most ships make interstellar jumps at the 100 diameter limit.
It has even got some smaller nations on it's borders to adopt this
practice as well. Worlds that have not adopted this practice routinely
suffer "freedom of passage" demonstrations by the Republic Navy.
The Republic also believes in not sharing high technology across it's
borders to what they term unstable or oppressive governments. (There is
still a lot of paranoia about being taken over by foreign nationals).
The Republic has probably grown as large as is possible for a
centralised form of government. Much more growth is impossible without
the fragmentation of the state. The Republic and the Imperium only began
interacting about two years ago but in that time the Republic has grown
to view he  Imperium is viewed as the greatest threat to democracy and
freedom.
The Imperium views the Republic as a threat to it's continued expansion
into territories previously held by the rule of man. Diplomatic moves to
have the Republic voluntarily incorporated into the Third imperium is
met by fierce opposition. The main sticking point being the abolition of
the office of the president, the senate, the congress and the
reestablishment of the Nobility on all worlds of the Republic. Imperial
policy on the Republic is in flux at the moment. The Imperium has
problems on other borders, and can't yet afford a protracted military
campaign to incorporate the worlds of the Republic. That may change in
the near future. 


I have also ingnored canon, and made the Third imperium encompass 9
subsectors by year 10, and are being pressed on other (at the moment
vague) borders.

When my players read the data on the Republic, some of them asked "Hey,
why aren't we fighting for them?"

They were all Naval Officers, in a military campaign.

I guess memories of the Federation die hard sometimes.


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 00:15:57 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: List Split?

Neil Simpson wrote:
  (lots sniped)                                                         
>  ...when are we going to get some
> REAL Traveller supplements again????  

It's all real Traveller, CT, MT, TNE, T4. (although I will guiltily
admit that I only played two versions without my own house rules, a free
scout courier for anyone who can guess which two).

> I am currently running a
> game to test the T4 system and speaking as a ref all I can say
> is-DISAPPOINTED!!!!!!!!!!!

Use a MT task system and it plays much, much better. The ship combat
system has potential, as long as they get rid of those hopelessly
uninformative ship descriptions, and fix the armor values so they
correspond to vehicles and personal armor.

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 00:42:19 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Emergency Herald Needed!

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> 
> [Gosh, more SCA<->Traveller stuff]
> 
> If there are any heralds out there within the sound of my voice can you
> write back immediately if you can blazon the Imperial coat of arms. I need
> it for the heraldry section in PE. My best guess was:
> 
> Sable, an annulet on a bezant rayony.
> A black field, a black ring on a gold disk rayony.
> 
> Anyone with something better?
> 
> Jo

I can see it now....


College of Heralds: "Im sorry your Majesty, but we have to bounce it!"

Emperor Cleon: "Why???"

CoH: "You can't stack one charge on top of another, but look, why dont
you consider....."



Harry (who is also a canton herald called Jourdain)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:58:28 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>
Subject: THUDDD Merc Cruiser Competition...

Did I miss something?

When did/is the THUDD Mercenary Cruiser contest entries and results going to be posted?
I thought the contest entry ended on the 2nd...just curious.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@netins.net - http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/   |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 97 09:04:02 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] QSDS 1.5 Jump Drive

Phil Rhodes <Phillip_Rhodes@baylor.edu> asked:
> I [...] noticed that there is a jump drive missing from the standard
> jump drive table in QSDS1.5.  For a 900dt hull, the Jump-3 drive has
> a volume of 32dt on the Jump Drive Potential Table.  However, there is
> no 32dt drive listed on the Standard Jump Drive table.

Oops.  Thanks!  I just checked, and it's an 800-ton hull that needs the 32
ton drive (900-ton hull would need a 36-ton drive for J3, which IS on the
table).

You can use the 35-ton drive for J3 in an 800-ton hull, or you can
interpolate, or you can even double the stats for a 16-ton drive and it'll
be OK.

The semi-mythical Next Version of QSDS will include this fix (it'll probably
include a smaller table of drives - so that 500-dt J6, 600-dt J5, 700-dt J4,
800-dt J3, and 900-dt J3 all use the same drive (for a much shorter drive
table).


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 00:46:32 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Sword fighting

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> 
> For the record, I _am_ a SCA fighter with about 7 years experience. I just
> fought in a war with several hundred others two weeks ago.


WOW!! now that's what I call numerical discrepancy.
Did you win?
If you did, you must be a Western Knight, or carried a Rattan FGMP.

;)


Harry (whose not that good a herald after all)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 04:43:15 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness 

Neil Simpson rote:
>
> Where is the real Traveller?Where are the Aslan? Where are
> the Zho`s? Where is the master-race (the Solomani)?

	Hmm. Members of Wuanian leader class probably consider
	themselves to be the master-race.

	As far as I remember, the mere existence of a "master
	race" (uplifted humans) led to a mass hysteria and
	escalating violence. All Solomani boidroids were thought
	to be destroyed during the resulting Gene Wars (~AD 2705
	- 2713), and official Solomani history is actively
	trying to forget what happened.



        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:32:19 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Why go from Wpn&Shield to Rapier

Someone asked why, historically, we stopped using weapon-and-shield
and went to fencing blades.  The answer: Gunpowder.

Primitive muskets were sufficiently powerful that for armor to have a
reasonable chance of stopping the bullet, the armor had to be made thicker.
Eventually, the required thickness of armor made armor too impratical
(too heavy for anything more than a breastplate and helmet).  In these
circumstances, a man armed with a slender blade could "shaving-nick" his
opponent to death <g>.

This is, of course, a very abbreviated explanation.

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:45:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

Eris said:
> If a sword and shield fighter is so much better than a rapier armed
> fighter, why did the change take place?  Was it the pistol and musket?  Was
> it improvements in metallurgy allowing thin thrusting weapons that would
> stand up to the slashing broadswords?  Was it simply a change in style..it
> became "old fashioned" to tote that big shield around?

	The short answer is D:) All of the above. If you look at the
development of the sword, there is a progression, pretty much, from wide
heavy slashing swords to skinny lighter thrusting ones (in a manner of
speaking..single handed swords never weighed much more than a few pounds) 
as armor technology improved, mostly during the transition between
chainmail to plate. 

	Gunpowder pretty much started making heavy armor
obsolete, so people stopped carrying shields, pretty much, which led to
the wider use of thrusting swords, and the longsword evolved into the
rapier.

	Finally, fashion played a part in it, as well. Those wacky
Elizabethans were slaves to fashion, and sword styles and fencing styles
were part of that.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:17:05 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: How Many Women On TML

> On 03/06/97 at 01:37 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:
> 
> > >On that subject, how many women do we have here on the TML?

I'm happy to see this question come up.  It came up again on IRC last 
night, in private channels.  So, shall we sound off?

ONE

Suz

 

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 08:02:58 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Accrete program

At 08:51 PM 3/6/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Trouble with Accrete is, it doesn't allow you any sort of input
>into the starting parameters of the system; you can't tell it to take a
>blue supergiant, say, with a habitable earth-sized planet around a
>superjovian, and take that ball and run with it.  And there's no graphic
>output; schematics would be nice...

Accrete2 allows you to input the mass and luminosity of the star.. It also
seems overly fond of type E atmospheres and A hydrographics..  I did an
entire subsector and came up with two marginally habitle worlds.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 08:03:25 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Sword fighting

At 12:46 AM 3/8/97 -0800, Harry wrote:
>Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
>> 
>> For the record, I _am_ a SCA fighter with about 7 years experience. I just
>> fought in a war with several hundred others two weeks ago.
>
>WOW!! now that's what I call numerical discrepancy.
>Did you win?
>If you did, you must be a Western Knight, or carried a Rattan FGMP.
                           ^^^^^^^
That should read "An Tir Knight."  Easy mistake to make. :)

Ooof, now I'm varying across two kingdoms (currently living in the West,
but once you've lived in An Tir...), thousands of years, and several TLs on
this list...  (Trebuchet as spinal mount, anyone? :) )

ObTrav:  Do you have any King Arthur-like or El Dorado-like legends
populating the cultural background of, say Solomani space?  

Hmmm.  Anyone ever read any of Tim Powers' books?  (_The Anubis Gates_, _On
Stranger Tides_, _The Stress of Her Regard_, _Expiration Date_)  For you
heretics out there, his take on things might be _very_ interesting, if for
nothing else than for a quasi-Cthuloid detour from your standard scenario.  

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:20:28 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

> Mike Sellers wrote:
> > This is a nice lead-in to a question I'd like to see the group
> > discuss: Would you have any interest in a hypothetical online
> > Traveller game?  And if so, what does "online Traveller game" mean
> > to you?  What would you expect, want to see, want to avoid seeing,
> > etc.?
> 
> You bet I'm interested. I've been refereeing CT/MT for about 15
> years (off and on) but haven't been a player in a while. "Online"
> for me would mean email, since I don't have the time to sit for
> hours logged in to an active session somewhere.


OK, I'll jump in on this one too <G>  

There are currently several PBeM games going that I am aware of,
directly or peripherally.  There are also some IRC games going.

I am personally running a PBeM game, so is Paul Walker, Eris Reddoch,
Peter Miller, and Tim Reynolds.  There is also a game that Stuart was
playing in, but I don't know who is running that one.  The medium is
great, as long as you allow for the necessary assumption that games
progress slowly, however, it does allow for excellent character
development and a high level of detail.  I am participating in three
games other than the one I'm running.  I must enjoy it <G>

IRC is another animal completely.  It is subject to the same vagaries
of player absenteeism as ftf games, and, depending on the server used,
the vagaries of the net.  Stuart, Allen Shock and J.D.Burdick are
running the three games I am aware of.  We use IG's server and the
game times are posted on IG's website.

In either case, if you are interested in starting or joining a game,
please email me your intentions.  I am working with IG to have a page
of games in progress and a waiting list for players who desire to join
a game and refs who are beginning a game and looking for players.  I
think there are alot more of us who would use this medium to play, if
we had the opportunity.  In my case it is because I work full time and
have two small children.  FTF opportunities are few and far between. 

Do you want me to go into what I feel is necessary to ensure a good
PBeM game?

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:24:05 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Rumours and Lies?!

Someone mentioned in a recent digest (don't ask me which - I've read about
70 of them in the last two days, mainly about the *&^%$%$=A3! task system)
that T4 has a reputation of being broken. I'm sorry to say this, but it's
true over here in the UK too. At my local games club (approximately forty
players) I am one of only two who've bought the rules. And I'm the only
active ref - the other guy bought it thanks to memories of CT. Now, amongst
my group of five players, no one else has bought the rules thanks to the
rumours that they are broken.

Now, no offense to Marc or IG, but I have to agree - the present ruleset is
not really that good for someone new to traveller, or to someone who's only
played TNE. I find it okay, but I'm playing a T4/MT/CT varient, and have
been playing Traveller since 1983. I would find it hard to recommend the
present rules, particularly with the errors in QSDS. The task system is too
easy, but adopting 1 to 6D seemed a quick enough fix. (I'll probably adopt
KBv2.0 sometime soon...).

So the gist of this is, no matter how fast the deluxe edition comes out for
those of us on the TML, it needs to be out there with the general game
buying public almost as fast, and it needs a big sticker on the front
saying "Revised and improved etc", and SOME BLURB ON THE BACK so newbies
(and oldies!) can get an idea of what it contains (something all the T4
supplements lack!).

It could also do with a task system fix, errata, QSDS revision, and a
background chapter covering core (M0) or the Marches (M100? onwards). Sort
of a 'rough guide to the Imperium'. The Imperial encyclopedia in MT was
very useful for introducing new players ("here's your ship's computer's
library DB").


    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 09:54:57 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

<<So what it seems has happened to ABD in the CT to T4 transition is
that when an opponent in ABD confronts the characters it's time to
holster those laser rifles and ACRs and head for the hills.  Likewise,
should a
character manage to smuggle a suit of ABD aboard a transport ship,
once he puts on the armor, the crew needs to ask where he would like
to go and may they please stay aboard, cuz they're sure not going to do
much about it.  Of course, under the CT rules, it was just -8 to hit, so
eventually a skillful character with an ACR could take him out.

Now I know there are a lot of options for the crew aboard a ship.  This
scenario is not my point.  I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who
sees this as a huge upgrade in the armor value, and if people have come
up with solutions.>>

My game has always had VERY powerful BD, and that is the point.  If you
find yourself facing it... run.  However, sneaky characters can always
find a weak link in whatever they are facing. =20

Some examples:=20
Snappers-- a mid tech device that uses a very powerful battery, combined
with a small gear box and four sharp (monofilament) curved blades that
can be flipped in zero g towards unsuspecting armored opponents.  The
result is that if the snapper hits something it can get a hold of (arm,
leg, neck, weapon, etc.) it snaps shut around it.  Then the gear box
kicks in and starts to wind the blades shut. Anything caught in the
middle will be cut off, or at least punctured.  The chance to "hit" is
low, but if it hits, watch out. (I had one PC blow a hole in her own leg
trying to stop it)

Snagglewire =96 a hang grenade that explodes out with many wires that
entangle anything=85 slows armor down.  Expensive, are more effective as
the technology increases.

Acid Gun =96 Fires a stream of acid goop that not only sticks but congeal=
s
in nooks and cracks, dissolving the armors joints. =20

Limpet Mines =96 Nuff said.  But you have to get very close.=20

These are but a few of the ways my PC=92s and NPC=92s have fought BD.  Of
course the most effective way is your own BD, but that is difficult to
get, and too expensive to maintain.

Bob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1039
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1040



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Timelines
CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions
Re: Accrete
Re: Battle Dress
Re: What happened...
Raise Shields
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Air Recycling Equipment
Re: Planetology 101
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)
Internet note
Re: Alien Book ideas
Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?
Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1039

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 08:32:41 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

At 01:19 PM 3/7/97 +0100, Carlos wrote:

>        Whether this argument was just a political defence or not, the
>reasoning sounds good. In fact, I am assuming that the max. damage that a
>Geonee can receive is 4D rather than 3D. And, well, this immediately raises
>the question: Is the Max.Damage rule race-related? Which races will fit into
>the 3D, and which will go to 4D? Will some race qualify for a 2D max.? As a
>preliminary thought, I think that maybe Droyne/Chirpers will go for 4D, but
>that most of the major races will reasonably be 3D (Aslan, Vargr, most
>humans). But, what about Hivers? I do not know much about them, but maybe
>their symmetric configuration makes them less prone to receive serious
>wounds (several "copies" of important internal organs), and *maybe* they
>would be candidates for a 2D max. Dmg Rule.

I was working under the assumption that the maximum damge rule was related
to the mass of the target creature.  If there is more of it to hit, the
bullet isn't going to come blowing through with such ease.

It might make some sense that a creature which is hardier than the norm, or
has a robust set of internal organs, might have a lower max damge.  The
Hivers are a good example of this, the CT module made it clear that their
internal organs are well protected and have back-ups.

I'm waiting to see what changes in combat come about in the Emperoer's
Arsenal book before I start working up my varient rules.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:42:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Timelines

Responding to William Hostman:

>>Hmm... 1977- 1990 vs 1990-1995... 13 years vs 5... I think you have a
misconception, mon frer...<<

How about 1105-1206? Come on! Can't we all just get along? <g>

William, I think your year-to-year comparison is a bit ridiculous.

Hey, I loved the CT setting, but Virus (sorry it debunked your cushy little
universe, guys) is no less possible than any of the other scenarios foisted
upon us by GDW over the years.

Just IMHO.

But, hey! It's a roleplaying game! We're all entitled to molding it to our
wishes as we please.

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:50:45 -0800 (PST)
From: " Paul  Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions

>
>So post something!  Do a write up of a world, start a discussion on
>political tension between the Duke of Regina and The Duchess of Mora, hold
>forth on Sword World Military tactics..
>

Now here are some subjects that I would really be interested in.  Can anybody
give me some ideas of what the Sword Worlds political and military structure is
a 1100?  What sort of expansion ambitions do they have?  What are they trying
to accomplish politically or militarily?

I have a few of my own ideas that I use in my CT era campaign, but I don't know
if they hold true to the actual history.  I would also be interested in any
other ideas or backgrounds of current or past campaigns.

PZ

- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:05:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Accrete

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Dominic Reynolds wrote:

> I found a version of Accrete2 on Chritopher Webs' web page here.
> 
> Although I have not yet unzipped it.
> 
> 
> http://www.mscomm.com/~cwebb/trav.html

Thank YOU Dominic!! Following some of the links on Chris' page I came
upon: ta-da!!! The Accrete home page:

http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~iburrell/create/accrete.html

Along the way I found the 3-D Starmap page:

http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html

Nifty stuff!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 09:03:32 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

At 12:58 PM 3/6/97 -0800, you wrote:
>In response to my concern over the virtual invulnerability of Augmented
>Battle Dress (ABD) to small arms, Doug Berry wrote:
>
><<<Well, don't mess with the Marines comes to mind...  Seroiously, BD is
>supposed to be the ultimate expression of military technology.  You just
>aren't going to do much to a Marine in BattleDress unless you have some
>access to militarygrade firepower yourself.
>
>You could try for a Spectaular Sucess, and say you were aiming for a
>joint or visor, but I'd recommend against that, since while your shooting at
>him, he's shooting at you, and he doesn't need a SS to kill you.>>>
>
>So what it seems has happened to ABD in the CT to T4 transition is that
>when an opponent in ABD confronts the characters it's time to holster
>those laser rifles and ACRs and head for the hills.  Likewise, should a
>character manage to smuggle a suit of ABD aboard a transport ship,
>once he puts on the armor, the crew needs to ask where he would like
>to go and may they please stay aboard, cuz they're sure not going to do
>much about it.  Of course, under the CT rules, it was just -8 to hit, so
>eventually a skillful character with an ACR could take him out.

Battle Dress has an armor value of 8.  A Laser rifle has a damage of 7.
does this mean that BD is invulnerable?  No.  What it means is that it takes
military-class weapons to defeat it.  Emperor's Aresenal should have these,
and I'm working on my own designs as we speak.

Please remember that numerous airliners have been hijacked my one man
claiming to have a hand grenade.. Unless you keep weapons that are capable
of penetrating your own hull on-board, you will be in trouble when that BD
equipped person comes knocking.

>Now I know there are a lot of options for the crew aboard a ship.  This
>scenario is not my point.  I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who sees
>this as a huge upgrade in the armor value, and if people have come up
>with solutions.

Battle Dress is the ultimate expression of armored infantry.  It is the
pinnacle of weapons research, and is so carefully controlled by the Imperium
that the location of BD,A units is *classified*, you just aren't going to
run into these things everyday!

Complaining that Augmented BD is to tough is like complaining that Tiamat in
AD&D is too tough.  Both are supposed to be exceedingly hard to defeat.

What do you do to beat someone in BD,A?  Get ahold of a plasma rifle, or a
HEAP greande, or wait for him to take his helmet of and drop him with a
sniper.  Onboard ship, open all the airlocks and blow him out, crank the
grav plates up to 3G, or turn th inertial compensators off and fly an
evasion pattern.  Hell, just spray-paint his visor!
>

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:16:27 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Re: What happened...

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
<<       For a killer couple of chapters about a falling beanstalk, pick up
Kim Stanley Robinson's _Red Mars_: magnify some of the effects due to
higher gravity and thicker atmosphere, and you've got a doozy of a titanic
event... >>

I agree - one of the parts of the book that really impressed me, especially
as I was playing 2300 at the time!

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 97  9:37:22 MS
From: Steve Charlton/IFSNA <Steve_Charlton@Avalon.COM>
Subject: Raise Shields

Regarding shields in a "modern" setting; a local SWAT team has shields that are 
rated IIIA for protection, which should stop all pistol rounds and shrapnel, 
and even some rifle rounds.  These are actually fairly light (5 pounds or less) 
and are somewhat reminescent of a Roman Scutum in design.  They have a small 
viewport in them as well, a slit about one foot below the top edge of the 
shield.  Some of the shields have an open port, and others have some sort of 
plastic "window", but I am unsure of its armor value, if any.  The shields are 
employed for riot duty and for controlling a barricade-type incident; two-man 
teams advance with a shield, covering the next two-man team, etc.  I think the 
bomb disposal team has some as well, but I am not certain of that.

I would imagine the Imperium would have decent "high tech" shields as well.  
Like the SWAT shields, they would not be much good in a running battle, but if 
you are defending a position or trying to advance on a defended position, they 
could be useful additions to the regular armor.  And cheaper, too; why spend 
money on Combat Armor for your MP Marines when you can give them a Combat 
Environment Suit and sheilds; quite sufficient for low-order threats, and you 
can still have a ready team of Marine riflemen in armor available for hot 
situations.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:24:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Doctor Vince <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

At 12:41 AM 3/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
> Many
>heavier swords also had points, so a Barbarian would not be totally
>unprepared for a thrust. A fencer would have to depend on his reach, speed,
>and ability to backup quickly.

That is very true, and I guess it depends on the style of broadswordwe're
talking about. Most of the ones from c400 to c1250 were mainly chop/smash
weapons, while after 1300 you begin to see the rise cut and thrust
longswords that taper to a very fine sharp point. They are almost
proto-rapiers at that point.

>
>My own favorite weapon was a glaive or naginata, a heavy blade mounted on a
>pole. It works a lot like a bayonet, provides a fair amount of reach, and
>can be used to slash as well. Now, if you want to match that against a
>rapier, ...

Point is well taken...glaives (as well as most polearms) are asskickers.
Unless of course I can get inside your blade distance...ahh advantages and
disadvantages...

:)
Vince
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Familiarity breeds contempt. People assume I am familiar with everything
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	"The passion of lovers is for death..."
				Bauhaus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for His Infernal Majesty, is :
		drvince@ix.netcom.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:32:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Air Recycling Equipment

I've got a pc complaining about an apparent backsliding in tech over air
recycling equipment in starships. He spent a couple years on submarine duty
and claims that their CO2 exchangers, etc. work better than the ones in Trav.
He bases this on the fact that subs can stay underwater longer than starships
can go between "airing up." 

I've tried to explain to him that:
1) the efficiency is the same but the higher TLs have reduced the size of the
equipment
2) submarines have more of a need to go longer between refreshing their CO2
exchangers than your typical commercial vessel

Can any of you tech-heads add anything that I missed? I've thought of adding
that the air exchangers require certain chemicals that need to be restocked
periodically. I've already explained filter cleaning to him (especially the
water issue which has been discussed here at length). I've also told him that
the group could bring the ship in and have emergency air tanks installed
(once I work out the specs) along with the aforementioned chemical
refurbishments.
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!
\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:39:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Planetology 101

> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:26:30 -0700 (MST)
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> 
> Craig mentioned a program ACCRETE2 in his irc lecture the other day.

This one was my brother Doug's show, actually.  Mine was "Ecology 101"
last night.

> I'd
> like to know if anyone's tracked it down.  There's a program called
> Accrete for generating planetary systems in the softarew section of Joe
> Hecks website,
> 
> http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/software/accrete/
> 
> Is that the same thing? (I'm not sure, Craig mentioned the source being in
> FORTRAN, and the program I found has source in c.)

The original ACCRETE, way back when (early 70s, I believe, perhaps earlier
than that) was in FORTRAN.  However, the thing's been through so many
ports, revisions, hacks, and general unregulated tinkering at this point
that there are probably hundreds of versions out there at this point,
following no consistent naming scheme.  So, my advice:  If you find a
variant you can use, and it seems to produce credible planetary data, be
happy. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:34:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Doctor Vince <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

At 01:45 AM 3/7/97 -0600, you wrote:
>The use of broadsword and shield in individual combat died out and was
>replaced by rapier and main gauche style combat...right?  Why?

That is the 64KCr question. Ask 15 historians and you'll get 15 answers. But
roughly, here is my answer.

There are several reasons to start moving toward lighter armor, but the
biggest impetus is gunpowder. The fact that wet-pack gunpowder makes all but
the heaviest (at the time) steel plates useless (and the armor too heavy to
wear or be carried by horseback effectively) means that you might as well
leave the armor home and run as fast as you can. Without Armor, now, the
bladed weapons become lighter and faster to match their faster opponents. 

Also with the rise of duelling, any hit determines a winner. You don't have
to murder your opponent, so causing a lethal wound is not always as
desirable as it was back when people wore armor. The blade should be lighter
and faster so as to add depth to your tactics (allowing feints and
second-intention attacks).

Finally, there were some profound metallurgical changes going on. The
evolution of swords started driving toward 'cut and thrust' style even
before gunpowder was truly effective. A case-hardened tip on a sword could
punch through a breastplate. So once again, the armor was made
obsolete...might as well shed some of it and gain mobility which can be used
almost as well.

Vince
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Familiarity breeds contempt. People assume I am familiar with everything
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	"The passion of lovers is for death..."
				Bauhaus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for His Infernal Majesty, is :
		drvince@ix.netcom.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:32:37 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

Eris wrote:

>
>I haven't been participating in this thread because I don't know *beans*
>about the subject...so I don't have a comment, but I do have a question...
>
>The use of broadsword and shield in individual combat died out and was
>replaced by rapier and main gauche style combat...right?  Why?
>
>If a sword and shield fighter is so much better than a rapier armed
>fighter, why did the change take place?  Was it the pistol and musket?  Was
>it improvements in metallurgy allowing thin thrusting weapons that would
>stand up to the slashing broadswords?  Was it simply a change in style..it
>became "old fashioned" to tote that big shield around?
>


	Gunpowder: historically, armour went away real quick as soon as
firearms became relatively effective.  TL-2 armour does not add to your
survivability and subtracts from your mobility in a gunfight, and TL-2
shields are of no use.

	In fact, I'd argue that shields against gunfire are a bad idea at
any TL.  Anyone here savvy enough to calculate what the kinetic energy from
a military rifle round would do to your shield arm?

	Then there are F&P GMP's.  Even assuming a shield that could stop
it, visualize ye interstellar barbarian lying there smoking from the
cauterized stumps of whatever wasn't directly' shielded from the round..:)

	So, once shields and armour were obsolete, there was no need to lug
a bloody great big sword around.  As I've pointed out, you don't need
massive amounts of strength to kill a person with a blade... and rapiers
require very little to wield.  So, the fast guys with better technique had
a major advantage, and broadswords, longswords, and big swords in general
went the way of the dodo (although the Scots kept on carrying them longer
than anyone else, out of sheer bloody-mindedness, I suspect).  Hence the
evolution of the rapier.  Cav sabers stayed heavier than duelling swords,
because of the somewhat wild & crazy circumstances in which they were used;
it's easier to cut down a fleeing peasant from the saddle with something
long and with a little weight (not too much).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:58:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)

> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:22:28 -0500 (EST)
> From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
> 
> Bear in mind, when I offered my suggestion for the reason behind *all*
> Marines knowing how to use Long Blades, I was trying to rationalize
> something that has been a rule in Traveller since Classic Trav.

And was immortalized in one of the funnier "Murphy's Rules" cartoons, with
the caption "Not so clumsy or random as a blaster..." :)

> * Bearing to the right-hand side of the road originated as keeping
> oncoming strangers on your left flank, so as to ward off any attack with
> your shield.  

One must then wonder how the Brits ended up passing on the left-hand side.
Perhaps British roads were notably more violent than others for this
reason... :)

> If there just happened to be good, rational reasons for this as well, so
> much the better...  :-)

How 'bout this?  The Marines have, over time, developed cutlass use into a
sort of martial art.  They train every recruit in cutlass skill as a form
of physical and mental development, a path to personal discipline and
control.  Some Marines consider this a bit flakey and outmoded, though
none would say this out loud, as a lot of the command staff take it *very*
seriously indeed.  Others become highly devoted to the art, and become
terrifyingly adept with the cutlass.

While normally the art is used in ritualized formal combat competitions,
akin to (though a bit more violent than) fencing or a karate tournament,
the skills taught are by design completely applicable to real combat
situations.

Whaddya think?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 13:04:11 EST
From: "Dave Marsden" <david_marsden@uk.ibm.com>
Subject: Internet note

unsubscribe traveller-digest

Dave Marsden               Ext Phone  0171-202 5648 Int: 435648
IBM-HUON Solutions         NOSS Id   : 8HUONDM@NHBVM1
IBM Southbank,             IEA  Id   : GBIB133l@IBMMAIL
76 Upper Ground, London    Internet  : david_marsden@uk.ibm.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:02:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alien Book ideas

<<<Lots of really good ideas from Carlos Alos-Ferrer & Joseph Lockett
snipped>>>

Here Here! The mixing of 1 Major w 2-3 minors is a great idea IMO. (I've
always had problems in the past getting "any" Trav books in stores. I've
found one place but they're a 45min drive away and only have T4. Old stuff is
impossible for me to find. Mail order doesn't work for me because I don't
like to buy anything w/o checking it out first.) I feel this combo would
appeal to those of you who have been fortunate enough to get the Majors in
the past but have been dying for more info on the minors. Maybe our
non-American friends here on the TML agree (re scarcity of Trav material in
their homelands)?

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 10:03:34 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

At 09:20 AM 3/7/97 +0000, Suzette C. Dollar wrote:
>There are currently several PBeM games going that I am aware of,
>directly or peripherally.  There are also some IRC games going.
> ...
>Do you want me to go into what I feel is necessary to ensure a good
>PBeM game?

Sure!  And also, what about non-PBeM, non-IRC games?  Any interest in
MUD-like games, action games, etc., from the folks here?

(And btw, it's great to see that we have a woman _running_ a game too.)


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 10:50:58 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions

Paul Zumstein wrote:
> 
> Now here are some subjects that I would really be interested in.  Can anybody
> give me some ideas of what the Sword Worlds political and military structure is
> a 1100?  What sort of expansion ambitions do they have?  What are they trying
> to accomplish politically or militarily?

In my campaign the Imperium treats them the same way that the U.S.
treats Cuba. From the SW point of view, though, things are quite 
different. They view the Imperium as interfering with their affairs
and as owning several systems that rightfully belong to the SW.

> 
> I have a few of my own ideas that I use in my CT era campaign, but I don't know
> if they hold true to the actual history.  I would also be interested in any
> other ideas or backgrounds of current or past campaigns.
> 

One of my characters is the format Fleet Admiral of the Gram Navy.
He came up with a detailed history of his character, based on the
character generation process, but embellished it to include political
rivals, comrades-in-arms and the like. 

He and I worked together so that his history matches what's considered
"canon". He is also the only person in the group with partial knowledge
of the various naval fleets at the end of 1106. He strongly suspects,
based on the attitudes of the person who replaced him as head of the
Gram Navy, that the Sword Worlds is building up to a military conflict.

This makes for an interesting character to play, since he's 
travelling with a group of Imperial citizens through the Spinward 
Marches. He's not sure what will happen to him if war breaks out.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:20:52 -0700
From: stedee@auto-trol.com (Steven Deemer)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

Eris wrote:

>The use of broadsword and shield in individual combat died out and was
>replaced by rapier and main gauche style combat...right?  Why?

By the time I see a post, there's usually four or five good responses
already, but I'm going to chime in on this one anyway.

Rapier/main gauche fencing didn't directly replace sword and shield.
Sword and shield was at one time the height of battlefield technology,
and a sword was a good personal defense weapon that could be carried
all the time. As armor developed, one handed swords became less effective
on the battlefield and were supplanted by heavier weapons.

Swords still hung around as personal, everyday defense weapons for the
upper classes, they just didn't have that much military usefulness for
a time. Gunpowder weapons developed to the point where full armor became
ineffective, so armor was reduced, then pretty much abandoned for
battlefield use. As armor decreased, swords regained some effectiveness.
Swords and fighting styles developed that could be used against unarmored
targets, such as throats and wrists, and to defend against same.

Gunpowder weapons continued to develop. Pistols became the primary personal
defense weapons, backed up by a sword, then by a big knife, then were
abandoned all together. Swords hung around in armies as symbols of rank,
and in cavalry units, but by the time machine guns appeared, battlefield
use of swords was pretty much history.

I think it's interesting to note that in WWI there were lots of fencing
style swords available for the troops in the trenches, but assault troops
were improvising shields and battleaxes out of boiler plate and shovels
for hand-to-hand combat. This suggests that in real life, if given a choice
between fencing with a long blade, expertly thrusting holes into your
enemy's vitals, or strapping some armor to one arm and hacking at your 
opponent with a big ugly piece of steel with the other, combat troops
adopted the old sword and shield approach. No one was screaming to be
issued sabers for trench fighting.

Steve Deemer
stedee@auto-trol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 13:49:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Obsolete armor = Battledress

   Hi.

   There are two very interesting threads going on right now, old
   obsolete armor and battledress, that I can't help think are closely
   related. If plate armor went out of style with the introduction of
   firearms, wouldn't battledress go out of style with the introdution
   of cheap, accurate long-range automatic grenade launchers with HEAP
   (High Explosive Armor Piercing) ammunition at TL9-10? These things
   are cheap, man-portable, easy to use, and will absolutely splatter
   any fool in a Cr300,000 stormtrooper costume, not to mention TL5-6
   armored vehicles. I know this for a fact from personal "experience",
   playing and refereeing Traveller with Striker and AHL rules.

   I submit that battledress /is/ militarily obsolete, even before a
   world aquires the TL to first build it. (Auto GL's come in at ~TL8,
   BD at ~TL12.) Which raises the question, why do some units use it?
   Possibilities include:

   1) As a bulletproof testosterone supplement for troops assigned to
   slaughter TL6 natives, useful to conquistadors and and to mercantile
   interests out to build banana republics.

   2) As a fashionable and overpriced EVA suit, useful in a few very
   specialized situations.

   3) As a "James Bond" tool for small mobile units attacking small, but
   vital, targets behind enemy lines. (The BD communications suite and
   hosile environment protections will be particularly valuable here.
   Invulnerablility to very small arms doesn't hurt either.)

   4) As merchandise for salesmen who ply thousand-dollar vacuum
   cleaners and quarter-million-credit uniforms to foolish consumers and
   newbie player characters.

   5) As fancy old outfits for nobles engaged in pomp and circumstance.

   Whatever the reason, I'd argue that battledress would NOT be used in
   standard military operations against a well (or even decently) armed
   foe. It's too expensive a way to decorate cannon fodder.

   (Someone pointed out that, in CT, a soldier with an ACR could take
   down an opponent in BD, but in Striker/AHL/MT, he stood no chance.
   Let me point out that, during a CT session using Striker rules, it
   was a player's use of an ACR's underslung grenade launcher that first
   pointed out to me the folly of battledress. 8^)

   -Rob, waiting for the flames!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:26:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1039

Responding to Harry:

>In my campaing, terra had formed the New Earth Union, a Tech 13 pocket
>empire. (small pocket empire).

You came to the same conclusion I did! I was prepared to design a Solomani
Rim campaign based on the idea that Terra formed a pocket empire and named
it (with deference to the Old Earth Union that formed around Terra during
the Long Night), the New Earth Union.

After I started putting all my energy into my Regency campaign (still going
strong after 2.5 years, thank you!), I decided to recognize Harold Hale's
"Children of Earth" setting as canon for the Solomani Rim.

You may want to take a look at his setting. He did a really nice job. It
appears in several of the more recent issues of The Traveller Chronicle.

>I strongly suspect that the same will have happened for Vland, and other
>homeworlds where all tech levels were progressed through.

I agree. Though Vland does not benefit from the fortuitous astrography that
Terra does. Vland's near the Great Rift which protects it on one side, but
it's more or less smack dab in the middle of a large stellar main which
would have subject it to huge Viral onslaughts over the ensuing decades.

Yet, out of nostalgia, I set up a pocket empire at Vland, too! Just one
that's not too healthy.

Terra, as you can see from viewing a map of the Solomani Rim, benefits from
a large stellar void to coreward-trailing with only a few routes that a
ship of less than jump-3 capability could cross. This, I believe, would
reduce the onslaught of Virus and enable Terra to set up some form of
pocket empire.

>In my campiagn the Vegans were still kicking around, many of them
>remebered the collapse (200yr lifespan), and have been able to recover
>with remarkable speed. Unfortunately they are all smarting from the
>centuries of injustice applied by humanity, this virus thing being the
>final straw.
>Humanity can go to hell, the time of the Vegans is here.

You're on the same page with Harold. Check out Children of Earth. You'll
like it.

>Yeah, what happened to the K'kree, the Aslan, or the frontiers of the
>Solomani Rim.

That's the subject for another story! I believe the story of the most
massive democratic stellar government to ever appear in the history of the
Perseus Arm of the Milky Way: The Fourth Imperium!!!

The K'kree were, for all intensive purposes, wiped out. Only at the turn of
the millenium (ca. 2000, Cleon dating), did explorers finally discover
remote remnants of the race, long thought to be extinct, in the distant
trailing reaches of the stellar arm.

The Aslan Hierate largely recovered thanks to the filial charity of the
Ihatei prodigal sons who returned to rebuild it. Of course, by that time,
the Aslan race was so busy gobbling up the far spinward remnants of the
Zhodani Consulate, the recovery wasn't as fast as it could have been.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1040
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1041



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Blunt Trama Damage
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Space Opera - Sort of!
Re: Battledress
Pirate Corsair ship (t4)
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
RE: Melee weapons
Re: Blunt Trama Damage
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Joe Walsh--TLWH
Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Adventure Idea
Obsolete armor = Battledress
re: T4 Barbarian Career
Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?
The Medieval Arms race

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 19:39:24 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:32:37 -0500, you wrote:

> 	In fact, I'd argue that shields against gunfire are a bad idea at
> any TL.  Anyone here savvy enough to calculate what the kinetic energy =
from
> a military rifle round would do to your shield arm?

Not much.  Remember... the same energy that strikes your target is the
same energy the shooter must deal with as recoil.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 12:54:52 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trama Damage

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> > I think that for every die of damage "ignored", +1 should be added to the
> > damage roll. Keep blunt trauma as written.
> >
> > eg. Getting hit with 6D6 of damage without armour is actually 3D6+3; 4D6
> > is 3D6+1.
> >
> > In other words, if you wear AV3 armour and get hit with >= 6D6 damage,
> > amount of damage rolled will be the same as if you were "butt nekkid".
> 
> Not true.  If we keep blunt trauma as written, then a butt nekkid
> character (being hit by a 6 D6 weapon) will take 3 D6 damage.  A
> character in flex AV3 armor, though, will take 3 D6 + 3 damage.
>
> Now, why are you saying that a character in armor should take more
> damage than a butt nekkid character?

No, no, no... you've misunderstood. As I said above, I suggest +1 should
be added to the damage roll for each die *ignored*. This is not the
blunt trauma, this is over-the-3D-limit extra damage from the holes
being riddled in the body.

In other words, there is no *max damage limit* there's a *maximum 3D6
rolled* limit.

So a butt nekkid character being hit by a 6D6 weapon takes 3d6+3 damage
(+3 from the 3 dice ignored) which is the same damage as a character in
flex AV3 armour...

I understand the rationale behind the max damage rule, I just think the
rule is too lenient. *Surely* bullets passing through the body and
_leaving holes_ cause some hardship, even if their kinetic energy isn't
absorbed.

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 14:55:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

   Hi.

> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

>	In fact, I'd argue that shields against gunfire are a bad idea at
> any TL.  Anyone here savvy enough to calculate what the kinetic energy from
> a military rifle round would do to your shield arm?

   Assuming the shield stops the bullet, the kinetic energy of the
   bullet, after transfer to the shield, will be reduced by a factor of
   M/m (mass of shield / mass of bullet). So a 500 gram shield will
   reduce the KE of a 5 gram bullet by a factor of 100.

   To get a feel for what a factor of 100 in KE means in combat terms,
   it is the equivalent to slowing the bullet down to 1/10th its nominal
   velocity. So this "slow-equivalence" bullet will be what strikes the
   arm of the barbarian, except that its shock will be distributed
   along his entire fore-arm, and not concentrated in one bullet-sized
   part, so it will do even less damage.

   So if your shield can stop the bullet, you'll take almost no damage
   at all.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:49:08 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Space Opera - Sort of!

Phil,
	The other day I noticed that there was a copy of the new release
of Space Opera on the shelf at the local gaming store.  Books 1 & 2 are now
bound together in a single volume.  On a quick page thru, the only
difference 
I noticed was the lack of the predesigned ships at the end of book 2(?).

	Anyway, here is the address for FGU:

		PO Box 1082
		Gilbert  AZ  85234

P.S. - Your name was still listed on the front cover.

Eric

- ----------
> From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> To: traveller mailing list <traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Space Opera - Sort of!
> Date: Saturday, March 01, 1997 3:33 AM
> 
> Since someone mentioned Space Opera in a recent chronology of early RPGs,
I
> thought I'd mention that Ed Simbalist is currently working on a new SFRPG
> (it can't be called Space Opera #2 for obvious reasons) for Highlander
> Designs, the people who have just printed C&S3. It is supposed to be a
1998
> release -- as I get more details I'll let people know.
> 
> Phil
>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> -------------
> Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
> Have Game Designer, Will Travel
> Co-Designer, Space Opera; Designer, Rigger Black Book

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:08:06 -0800
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Battledress

well other ways to defeat ABD or standard BD is Plasma Gun's and Fusion
Guns.... even though to use one with out BD in the MT rules.. the weapon is
tl 16
it's another way to defeat the enemy... i allowed them to mount it on a
vehicle.......or hvy tripod...... i was suprised not seeing some of the
clasic
weapons in the T4 rules.. like laser carbines... and  PGMP and FGMP



			- Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:09:39 -0800
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: Pirate Corsair ship (t4)

has anyone desgined or coverted the Pirate Corsair ship.. if so can you
send it to me or tell me were i can find it..... i don't have the T4 ship
book is it in there?


				- Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 12:19:50 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

At 01:49 PM 3/7/97 -0400, Robert Flammang wrote:
>   I submit that battledress /is/ militarily obsolete, even before a
>   world aquires the TL to first build it. (Auto GL's come in at ~TL8,
>   BD at ~TL12.) Which raises the question, why do some units use it?

I think you've raised some interesting points.  I can think of a couple of
others:  

- -  Powered battledress gives you all kinds of capabilities that you
wouldn't have otherwise.  So, even if you can take out someone in ABD with
a good RAM grenade, any units that go into battle without the life support,
speed, endurance, medication, sensors, etc., provided by ABD will get
vaporized real quick.  In this sense, ABD may also be analogous to our M1
tanks: they're heavy and can take out all kinds of things, but can also be
brewed up by a single well-aimed LAW fired by infantry.  So, you don't use
them in isolation, but with supporting infantry and Bradley FVs, etc.  In
the same way, ABD troops not be used singly for boarding actions, but would
fight in self-supporting squads along with lesser-armored Scouts, high
guard support (aka arty), and other supporting units.  Sure, a rebel might
be able to take out _one_ of these guys with an underslung RAM launcher,
but the building the rebel is hiding in will be a smoking crater when his
buddies and their support turn their firepower on it.  

- - Which leads me to the other possibility.  Maybe ABD _isn't_ like an M1
tank (though I like that thought).  Maybe the use of ABD is more like the
use of fighting lines and formations by the Napoleonic-era British fighting
the American colonial rebels.  Theirs was a good tactic that no longer made
sense.  If that's true, then perhaps some sort of lighter, cheaper armor
(like Star Wars stormtroopers) is in order.  Still gives you the sensors,
life-support, and protection against some weapons, etc., but its cheap and
versatile enough that you don't worry if some of the infantry wearing them
get mowed down by lasers.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 14:43:30 -0600 (CST)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: RE: Melee weapons

On  Thu, 6 Mar 1997 12:46:37 -0600 Doc Vince wrote:

Actually with training on the piste, I find that with a couple of years
experience, you are nearly as far backwards as forwards. Of course I haven't
tested this in any sort of "real combat", but according to theory, by moving
back and forth you constrain your opponent to straight line maneuvers. I
used to be pretty fast moving backward. I was certainly as fast as the
SCAdians I was playing with. They were often encumbered by the shield. That
may imply that they didn't know how to use it.

        Possibly.  Were they wearing armor as well?  Your thinking is valid,
from a sport fencing context, but in the many bouts I've fought, the
exchanges are rarely so elegant.  When your opponent rushes you, he puts his
shoulder behind his shield and flat RUNS at you.  No careful maintaining of
stance and footwork, just a howling charge with a sword cocked back to
strike the moment the proper opening presents itself.  Distance closes very
fast, and your range of options shrink from eyeblink to eyeblink.  If it
were me behind the shield, I would rush at you and give you one of two
options- hit me or get flattened.  If you tried to hit me (face or leading
leg, because I'm refusing my sword arm and pretty much everything else is
behind the shield) I'd wait for you to commit and then take a swing at your
extended sword arm.
        The point is, I'm charging at you more than anything to rattle you
and make you react.  I'm giving you only a second or two to make the right
decision.  This is where life or death amounts to how much experience you have.

>  A good-sized shield, properly used,
>will protect a fighter's torso and leading leg down to the knee.  

Granted, but if I cut the side of the shin. I am going to reduce the
low-tech fighters mobility drastically.

        A muscle cut, unless it's a hamstring (tough to hit from head on)
won't become drastic immediately.  But you're right, you take his leg at the
earliest opportunity.  Were it me, in the situation above, I'd feint at the
barbarian's eyes as he began the charge, and when he raised his shield I'd
duck low and left and nail his leg above the ankle.  If I'm lucky his
counterswing will miss, otherwise I'll sprout a sword in my left shoulder.

>  In
>short, keeping your opponent at a distance sounds great on paper, but it is
>a lot harder in practise.  If you have a tactic that makes this routinely
>possible I commend your skill and would really love to learn how to do it.

Distance is only part of the equation. I often found that displacing the
opponent's weapon also worked well, and that it was usually a good tactic to
displace and cut the weapon arm. By our rules that was a disable. In terms
of "Real Life", YMMV.

        I can see that.  There is indeed an art to displacing the opponent's
weapon, but it's bloody hard if your weapon is much lighter.

>        Er, please define "extreme range of your blade".  Ideally, you want
>to hit your target with the extreme four inches of your blade on slashing or
>chopping attacks, because that is the surface area that yields the most
>force on impact.

In my experience, people who are using big weapons like to get up close and
personal, far beyond the top third of the blade on striking the opponent.
This may be due to a lack of experience in handling the blade. I think
fencers have a better instinctive grasp of the distance concept.

        Absolutely.  The fencer employs the art of the thrust, and he has to
maintain a critical distance wherein he can strike deep enough to hit the
vitals, but yet be able to swiftly draw the blade out of the body, lest it
become trapped when the opponent falls to the ground.  I think more
inexperienced swordfighters get close because their thinking doesn't extend
past their hands, as opposed to out at the tip of the blade, where it's
supposed to be.

>  If you are fast enough to duck out of the reach of
>his swing and then dart back in to cut his arm, then he deserves his fate. 

As I said above, distance is only part of the equation. It is very possible
to control the opponent's blade by keeping yours in contact with it.

        With blades of similar weight, I agree, or if a fencer has the nerve
to attempt blade control using the lower third of his blade (where there is
a stronger cross-section and less susceptibility to flexing).  If the
broadswordsman is foolish enough to play that game, he deserves what he
gets.  The proper method is keeping the sword cocked back by his head, out
of your reach until he is ready to strike.

>        Can't argue there.  IF you can avoid being clobbered by his attack,
>and IF your opponent is not foolish enough to expect that you would attack
>his arm, and IF you hit the arm well enough to incapacticate it, and IF at
>this point he doesn't decide to charge at you with the shield and flatten
>you to the ground (don't knock desperation tactics- I've seen them work more
>often than you would think), then yes, he is doomed.

Well, desperation tactics do work pretty well sometimes. However, there is
no way that the broadswordsman can attack without leaving *something*
vulnerable. Most often (and again, I find it common when someone is relying
on a shield) this is the sword arm. Often it is the face as well, which
would really suck...

        Putting out your opponent's eyes will seriously impede his
performance. ;)  You are correct- when you commit to an attack, you are
leaving yourself open, to some degree.  And again, you are right in that the
best target is the swordsman's outstretched arm.  The trouble is that this
arm is engaged in swinging a sharpened metal bar at your vital areas, which
has got to be of at least passing concern to you.  Hitting that arm does not
necessarily mean that it will stop it's swing.  What I'm saying is that you
run a very real risk of getting hit simultaneously.  A lot depends on the
direction of his swing versus your position, etc.  (I wish were were in a
park somewhere with a couple of sticks so we could walk through this- I'm
sure you know as well as I that there are some elements of fencing that is
much easier to simply DO than to explain!)

>  A
>fencing sabre will not parry a broadsword.  The end result is that the
>lighter blade gets slapped aside, or worse, it gets bent back and strikes
>the wielder's body as well as the opponent's sword.  (I've seen this happen
>several times.)

I suppose a clarification is in order. The sabre I am envisioning for my
thinking would be something akin to the USMC dress sabre...maybe a bit
heavier, with a basket hit. The blade would taper from  5 cm at the hilt to
3 cm at the tip (chisel pointed? maybe...). It would *certainly* be heavier
and stiffer than the average fencing sabre.

        That makes a world of difference.  Sorry about my confusion.  The
Mamluke saber that the Marines carry is a light Eastern-style horseman's
saber, a little too light for my tastes, but the fighting versions are
serviceable weapons, and as you said, a lot tougher than a sport fencing
blade.  What you have in mind is more like a European cavalry saber, with a
3-3.5cm blade width, slightly curved and tapering to a thrusting point.  The
historical ones had a gently tapering point and a very strong triangular
cross-section.  (There's a really gorgeous Confederate cavalry saber I found
in a local antique store, and the moment I can cough up $900, that sucker's
mine!)  Weight was around two pounds, plus or minus some ounces.  This is
based on an 1880's British Army pattern cavalry saber that a friend of mine
owns  (he found it at a Flea Market, of all things- I won't tell you how
much he paid for it, the lucky SOB).

A light blade *can* parry a broadsword, applying it's force at the upper
third of the broadsword. A swift chop here takes the broadsword out of line.
If you are not afraid of contact, now would be the time to step in
corps-a-corps and shoulder the shield-bearer, knocking him off balance. If
you are afraid of contact, once the broadsword is out of line, chop wrist,
elbow, cheek or crown, as the target warrants.

        That's providing that he holds it out for you to chop at.  Again, if
the broadswordsman has any training, he will hold the blade cocked back and
out of the way until he's ready to hit you with it.  All you as the opponent
are supposed to see is a big scarred shield, a bit of lower leg, and the
swordsman's beady-eyed glare peeking over the top of the shield.  You've got
the right idea, though- go for his eyes or forehead.  When he raises his
shield, you crash into him  (when you're sparring, you'd best dispel any
fear of contact!).  He'll either fall or backpedal, in which case you duck
and cut his legs.  Of course, even this plan can backfire if the guy behind
the shield is experienced.  I tried this once, made the guy raise his shield
and checked him.  He rocked back, enough to fool me that I'd overbalanced
him, then when I ducked and went for his legs, he rocked back forward,
lowered the shield, and fell on me.  Literally.  Squashed me under that
heater shield like a bug. then just sort of started hacking at my legs.

>        Only if the barbarian was really, really stupid.   

I have to respectfully disagree. At this point I don't want to have the
conversation devolve into "can not/can too", but let me at least explain my
rationale.

First point: I am modeling the barbarian and his behavior from low-tech
Terra. I don't think that (IMHO) a barbarian (or hell, even a French
chevalier c.1100) is going to be  tarined or capable of handling the
fencer's speed or control of target.

        Hmmm.  I see your reasoning.  You have a good point there, one that
I had not considered.  Experience, of course, always plays a factor, and the
barbarian's lack of exposure to the sabre would give the canny fencer an
edge.  All the same, the fencer better end the fight quickly.  It won't take
long for the barbarian to put two and two together if he is at all skilled.

Secondly, I don't assume the extremnely light fencing weapons, but instead a
more "Napoleonic" or "American Civil War" style sabre, not as light as you
might be thinking, but still far more agile than your average broadsword.
The combination of non-trivial wounding (to an exposed weapon arm) and the
weight to effectively displace the broadsword (at the upper third of the
blade) makes the sabre (and the fencer) the better choice in my opinion.

        Take it from me, there is no such thing as a non-trivial wound!
From experience, the fighting sabers are more agile, but not by much.  It
does have the ability to displace the broadsword, as you have stated, but
the trained broadswordsman will give you precious little opportunity to do
it.  Both choices are perfectly valid (especially if you fill that other
hand of yours with a dagger), as the two blades themselves are fairly evenly
matched.  It's just with the shield, the broadswordsman has less to worry
about as far as defense goes.  The saber fencer has to take more risks and
work a lot harder to hit his opponent while avoiding getting hit in return.
Neither style is innately superior to the other- both have advantages and
disadvantages.
        To be honest with you- I'd take the saber too.  I've fought on both
sides of the equation, and it's just more challenging (and fun) to use the
saber.

Anyhow, that was my thinking on the subject...

        And I appreciate the chance for discussion!  Thanks.

Mike Lee

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 14:38:52 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Blunt Trama Damage

> In other words, there is no *max damage limit* there's a *maximum 3D6
> rolled* limit.
> 
> So a butt nekkid character being hit by a 6D6 weapon takes 3d6+3 damage
> (+3 from the 3 dice ignored) which is the same damage as a character in
> flex AV3 armour...

Oh, I see.  You are, in effect, adding the blunt trauma damage even 
if the character has no armor.

I think that my rule is better.  You add blunt trauma as written.  
You just can't use blunt trauma to exceed the 3D6 max limit.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 14:33:57 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

>         MMT states that, apart from the shotgun, a weapon cannot make more
> than 3D damage to an individual, and the reason is that higheer energy
> attacks punch right through the target, wasting energy. Well, maybe, but,
> even if we take it, is not true that we are thinking of ordinary humans here?
>         Think, for instance <g> on the Geonee.

Tis a good point.  I can see special rules for each race included in 
the alien booklets.  Both the GDW and DGP alien supplements had 
special rules concerning the race they were covering in the 
supplement.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 14:33:58 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Joe Walsh--TLWH

> I believe the idea was that the average person will be more likely to buy 
> a smaller, less-expensive adventure than a larger, $24 adventure.  Thus, 
> splitting it into 2 parts, and having some resolution at the end of the 
> first part.  If they want to go on and buy the second,great. If not, they 
> still have a suitable adventure.
> 
> So sayeth Tim Brown.

OK, I've got a question.  I'm very interested in getting TLWH, but 
how much, in US dollars, did CORE sell the adventure for?

I'd like to compare this to what IG is planning on selling the 
adventure for.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:54:43 -0800 (PST)
From: " Paul  Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions

Erwin Fritz wrote:
 
>
>One of my characters is the format Fleet Admiral of the Gram Navy.
>He came up with a detailed history of his character, based on the
>character generation process, but embellished it to include political
>rivals, comrades-in-arms and the like. 
>
>He and I worked together so that his history matches what's considered
>"canon". He is also the only person in the group with partial knowledge
>of the various naval fleets at the end of 1106. He strongly suspects,
>based on the attitudes of the person who replaced him as head of the
>Gram Navy, that the Sword Worlds is building up to a military conflict.
>

This is interesting.  My current campaign has characters with home worlds in
the Sword Worlds.  The SW independent fleets in this game have also been
gearing up, so to speak.  I have created a partial political background that
the PCs have no knowledge of yet.  It is my intention to get them involved in
this in one way or another.

>This makes for an interesting character to play, since he's 
>travelling with a group of Imperial citizens through the Spinward 
>Marches. He's not sure what will happen to him if war breaks out.

Sounds interesting!  My players are travelling with an Imperial merchant
captain through the Marches.  They are slowly making their way back to the SW.

I would be interested in reading some of the background you have, if that is
possible.

PZ


- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:23:20 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

Rob Flammang wrote:

>
>   Hi.
>
>   There are two very interesting threads going on right now, old
>   obsolete armor and battledress, that I can't help think are closely
>   related. If plate armor went out of style with the introduction of
>   firearms, wouldn't battledress go out of style with the introdution
>   of cheap, accurate long-range automatic grenade launchers with HEAP
>   (High Explosive Armor Piercing) ammunition at TL9-10? These things
>   are cheap, man-portable, easy to use, and will absolutely splatter
>   any fool in a Cr300,000 stormtrooper costume, not to mention TL5-6
>   armored vehicles. I know this for a fact from personal "experience",
>   playing and refereeing Traveller with Striker and AHL rules.
>
>   I submit that battledress /is/ militarily obsolete, even before a
>   world aquires the TL to first build it. (Auto GL's come in at ~TL8,
>   BD at ~TL12.) Which raises the question, why do some units use it?
>   Possibilities include:
[snippage]

	I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here, Rob.  Y'see, TL-2
armour is nothing but armour.  It's simply crude protection against trauma
inflicted by bladed or blunt weapons and some primitive projectile weapons.
Once projective weapons get powerful enough, wearing even the best
breastplate your TL can produce is useless as protection and will only slow
you down.

	Battledress, OTOH, is much, much more than just mere armour: it's
enhanced sensor and comm capable, self-camouflaging, capable of flight,
vacuum enabled, and has laser point defense and a powered exoskeleton
component that enhances the wearer's strength.  I think that these
capabilities are the real reason for battledress, and the armour merely
tacked on as an afterthought because the exoskeleton and Fusion+ systems
could support it.  Even without the armour, troops with these capabilities
would possess significant advantages; the sensor and comm capability alone
should prove utterly lethal; if suits in a unit share and integrate data
from all the suits' sensors, that means that if one trooper sees a target
all of them know where it is.

	I see battledress not so much as an attempt to make troops
invulnerable as it is to drastically increase their tactical effectiveness
through the abovementioned capabilities, with the armouring as a bonus.
Even if you're up against a bunch of disgruntled pyramid investment scheme
victims with plasma guns (yeek), the mobility, command and communications,
and camouflage enhancements of battledress are still going to give you a
significant edge... and the fact that the armour will save you from
near-misses, shrapnel, small-arms fire, chemical weapons, and so forth
won't hurt either.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:21:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Adventure Idea

From 'News of the Wierd':

* In a July soccer game in Tripoli, Libya, a team sponsored by
the eldest son of Muammar Qaddafi suffered a questionable
referee's call and began beating the official and the other team. 
After spectators jeered, Qaddafi and his bodyguards opened fire
on them, and some spectators shot back.  The death toll was
somewhere between eight and fifty, including the referee, and
Muammar Qaddafi declared a period of mourning, the hallmark
of which was that Libyan TV was to be in black and white only. 


Wow.

That would make a cool adventure. Characters land on a small world,
run by a military junta and are invited to watch a local sporting
event. It would be a good way to meet some locals and make some
trade contacts, right? I mean, what could happen... ??

Heh.

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:28:01 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Obsolete armor = Battledress

Rob writes
>   I submit that battledress /is/ militarily obsolete, even before a
>   world aquires the TL to first build it. (Auto GL's come in at ~TL8,
   BD at ~TL12.) Which raises the question, why do some units use it?


We'll have to see what military weapons look like in EA; it's possible
that TL-12 augmented battle dress is proof against TL-8 HEAP grenades.

Even if it isn't, it still provides some advantages. Consider battledress +
gauss rifle  vs  unarmoured  + grenade launcher. The gauss rifle has much
greater effective range than the grenade launcher - particularly since the
GL has relatively few shots while the gauss rifle is full-auto. If the two
soldiers are walking towards each other in open terrain, the guy with the GL
dies first.

Realistically, neither will be fighting in the open - neither has much chance
against grav tanks - but even in a urban environment, the BD-solider with
an automatic fire weapon will tend to get the first hit if they both stumble
on each other coming around a corner.

Alternatively, if the BD-soldier is also carrying a grenade launcher, the
BD-soldier can survive a near-miss - the unarmoured soldier can't. 

BD will also provide greater survivability against vehicle weapons (large
HE rounds, light cluster bombs, plasma gun near-misses...) 

BD lets you carry better sensors, comm equipment, and much greater weights
of ammunition.

Finally, high-TL BD will probably include some sort of built-in fire control,
using the suit's sensors to move the arms to aim carried weapons - making
the BD soldier as accurate as a computerized tank.

How useful it all is depends on price, in the end...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:47:14 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: re: T4 Barbarian Career

Someone asked (I forgot to write down your e-mail address; that's
why I'm sending this to the list) why I had entries for a "7" on
the Cash Table and the Benefits Table.

The entry on the Benefit Table was "7 ---" (i.e., it was *blank*,
just like #7 for many other careers).  Even though a barbarian
*cannot* get a 7 on this table, the entry was included (albeit,
as a blank line) to be consistent with the other careers.

The entry on the Cash Table *can* be achieved by a barbarian.
If you will recall, an entry on one of the skill tables listed
the Clandestine skill cluster, from which the barbarian could
get the Gambling skill.  Thus, he could get a 7 on this table.

Thanks for the feedback.

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:49:14 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

>From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
>
>At 09:20 AM 3/7/97 +0000, Suzette C. Dollar wrote:
>>There are currently several PBeM games going that I am aware of,
>>directly or peripherally.  There are also some IRC games going.
>> ...
>>Do you want me to go into what I feel is necessary to ensure a good
>>PBeM game?
>
>Sure!  And also, what about non-PBeM, non-IRC games?  Any interest in
>MUD-like games, action games, etc., from the folks here?

Well, I'm not sure about other types of games, but when we did the PBeM
topic on the IRC a while ago, we covered a decent bit of the issues relating
to the referee.  I was going to work that up for a FAQ and try to get a
player FAQ too, but alas, they expect me to work at my job. (bummer)  If Suz
has the info from the IRC night (or maybe a log) it might be nice to post
it, and if not, I will try to find it on my computer at home.

>(And btw, it's great to see that we have a woman _running_ a game too.)

Yeah and she's great at it too.

Suz -- can we have a jump capeable Ship's Boat?

Olivar Preston "Stoney" Osborn, AAB's Ship's Boat Pilot    AKA

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 15:41:27 -0600 (CST)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: The Medieval Arms race

On  Fri, 07 Mar 97 01:45:25 -0600, Eris Reddoch wrote:

The use of broadsword and shield in individual combat died out and was
replaced by rapier and main gauche style combat...right?  Why?

        It boils down to the evolution of arms and armor.  The transition
from sword-and-shield to rapier was by no means direct or immediate, but
followed an evolution of warfare covering about 500 years.  Initially, (by
this I'm talking as far back as Greece), swords were broad-bladed cutting
weapons, because forging techniques were not yet up to the challenge of
producing high-quality, tempered steel.  They had to be broad enough to
resist bending, and to be able to hold up under the punishment of repeated
blows.  The earliest forms of armor were shields of wood or hide, and later,
boiled leather armor, plus helmets.  The boiled leather was rather
restrictive mobility-wise, being thick and retty rigid, once the wax
hardened it.  To help turn aside a sword cut (and hopefully put a notch in
the offending blade, pieces of metal were often riveted to the hide armor.
        Then along came mail- linked rings of metal (or linked plates in
some cases)  which afforded better protection than leather and much more
mobility.  It was better against cuts, but vulnerable to thrusting weapons-
a good point could punch through the rings- so the shield remained a useful
addtion to a soldier's equippage.  At this point, the axe also became
favored as a weapon, because it's chisel-like blade shape fared better
against mail, at the cost of requiring greater skill to use effectively.
Swords became longer to accomodate fighting from horseback, and
double-edged, so that when one edge became notched or dulled after hammering
on a lot of armor, the wielder could switch to a sharper edge.  This was the
state of the art from 900-1100.  After 1100 comes the brigandine, a form of
armor that employed plates of steel sandwiched between two heavy layers of
fabric, and offered a hybridization between the flexibility of mail and the
effectiveness of plate steel.  From there we begin to see the evolution of
plate armor, beginning with steel greaves (shin protectors for horsemen),
and then growing in coverage until the late 1300's when we began to see the
first true suits of plate-and-chain harness.  By this point there was plate
steel covering nearly all of the fighter's body, with protection at the
joints and groin provided by mail.  Swords began to increase in length for
more chopping power, and develop a strong thrusting point, and the shield
began to be phased out.  The 1300's and early 1400's can be considered to be
the heyday of the suit of plate armor, as it increased in sophistication to
the point that it was impervious to the edge of a sword.  In response,
swords kept their length but began to taper to a needle like point with a
strong cross-section, for finding their way into the armor's gaps.  Also
crushing weapons like the axe and mace came into vogue, as well as the
polearm.  The Swiss and their deadly pike squares finally spelled the end of
the knight and the mounted charge, and gunpowder took away the vaunted
protection of full plate.  As guns became more common, armor became lighter
and lighter- why carry all that weight when some guy with a matchlock can
punch right through it?  Finally devolving into a heavy breastplate and helm
for heavy cavalry units.
        With armor on the decline, the need for heavy, armor-defeating
swords became unnecessary, and the needle-nosed thrusting swords of the late
1400's became slimmer and lighter still, eventually becoming the rapier. It
is important to note, however, that the weapons that men wore in public and
the ones they took to war were very different.  War swords were wider
(2-3cm), and were capable of cutting and thrusting with great speed and
power.  These war swords later became curved for horsemen, leading to the
cavalry sabers that persisted into the 1800's. 

Mike Lee

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1041
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 7 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1042



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Future swordfighting
Re: Joe Walsh--TLWH
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: Quick Hit Location
Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
What does "skill level 1" mean?
The cost of living in T4
Missing CT/MT weapons (was Re: Battledress)
Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Emergency Herlad Needed!
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
future of the K'kree...
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Psionics + Special Talents
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Zdant Virus Control Labs.
BattleDress
Re: Joe Walsh--TLWH

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 15:52:46 -0600 (CST)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: Re: Future swordfighting

On  Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:37:10 +0100,  Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

One thought occurs to me: Wouldn't it be possible, using today's technology,
to make some sort of light-weight armor sleve/gaultlet that would protect a
swordfighter from a fencing weapon? How about future materials technology?
How much would a crystal-iron gauntlet and greave weigh?

        During the late  Renaissance, it was considered a valid, if somewhat
risky tactic, to use your left hand to grab your opponent's rapier and trap
it.  To that end, heavy leather gauntlets were developed that had
tightly-woven squares of mail stitched over the left palm.  The idea was,
you could catch the enemy rapier's point in the mail and trap it, then close
your fingers over the blade while doing your best to ventilate your
opponent. I can't imagine that the glove would permit much manual dexterity,
however.
        A gauntlet covered with cerametal plates along the back of the hand
and forearm would make for an interesting defensive tool, but it would take
a good bit of dex to use competently.  Weight wouldn't be much more than a
kilo, I would think.

Mike Lee

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:09:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Joe Walsh--TLWH

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> OK, I've got a question.  I'm very interested in getting TLWH, but 
> how much, in US dollars, did CORE sell the adventure for?
> 
> I'd like to compare this to what IG is planning on selling the 
> adventure for.

I don't recall what Andy was selling TLWH for, but I do know that the 
comparison wouldn't be very valid.  Andy made a very small print run 
(higher per unit cost), he sold only direct to the public (i.e., he 
got 100% of the purchase price), and he made a net loss.  IG is making 
large print runs (lower per unit cost), is selling 99% of their product 
through distributors (i.e., they get a small percentage of the final 
selling price), and is planning to make a profit.  

Same material, completely different business cases.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:26:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

   Hi.

> From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>

> If that's true, then perhaps some sort of lighter, cheaper armor
> (like Star Wars stormtroopers) is in order.  Still gives you the sensors,
> life-support, and protection against some weapons, etc., but its cheap and
> versatile enough that you don't worry if some of the infantry wearing them
> get mowed down by lasers.

   Very good point. As much as I scoff at the "armor" of battledress, I
   must confess to being intrigued by the military capabilities offered
   by its mobility and sensors. Imagine powered troops that never get
   tired and can operate in all environments, all weather. Each
   individual has his own array of sensors with automatic, shoulder
   mounted, counter battery lasers. On his powered back he carries a VLS
   of RAM anti-personel and anti-armor missiles. Each grunt's weapons
   and sensors are linked to the others' in an Aegis-like defense
   system. Each soldier is litterally blinded by all the information
   flowing into his goggles from his (and everyone else's) sensors; a
   special information processing skill needs to be learned to keep from
   getting bewildered by all this information; call this skill
   "battledress". Each battledress grunt is essentially an "officer"
   exercising "policy" decisions over his weapons, which fire themselves
   with blinding speed and deadly accuracy.

   These guys may even look like they're wearing plate armor because of
   all the electronic shielding they have to wear to avoid getting
   cooked by their own counter-battery centimeter radar! And as long as
   you are spending all this butter on your guns, you may as well tack
   on some armor too (if it doesn't cost too much more).

   -Rob (who is beginning to believe in battledress)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:59:41 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Quick Hit Location

At 12:25 AM 3/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I'd like to thank all those who have had good things to say about my Hit
>Location table. Glad you find it useful.

You're welcome.  :-)

>Without further ado, 1D Hit Location...

>                        Hit Location
>
>     Location      Superficial  Minor      Major        Critical
>
>1    Leg           Fall         Frac       Impd         Amp 1-3p/r
>2    Hip/Pelvis                 Frac       Intl 1p/r    Artery 2p/r
>3    Arm           Drop Items   Frac       Impd         Amp 1-3p/r
>4    Middle Torso               Intl 1p/r  Intl 2p/r    Spine
>5    Upper Torso                Intl 1p/r  Intl 2p/r    Lung/Spine
>6    Head/Neck     Stuns 1 rd   Frac/Impd  Conc/Throat  Brain/Spine

Here's what I don't like about this, Glenn.  The percentage chance for a
head/neck wound (16.7%) is too high for me.  Can you cut this in half somehow?

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:59:37 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

At 08:13 PM 3/6/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Mike Sellers wrote:
>> This is a nice lead-in to a question I'd like to see the group discuss:
>> Would you have any interest in a hypothetical online Traveller game?  And
>> if so, what does "online Traveller game" mean to you?  What would you
>> expect, want to see, want to avoid seeing, etc.?
>
>You bet I'm interested. I've been refereeing CT/MT for about 15 years
>(off and on) but haven't been a player in a while. "Online" for me
>would mean email, since I don't have the time to sit for hours logged
>in to an active session somewhere.

Here's a pointer to the FAQ that I use for my T4 PBeM.  I've been running a
CT PBeM (Counter Genocide) for over a year and a half and am now
transitioning to using T4.

   http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/t4/faq.htm

Note that this is my style of PBeM playing.  Your mileage may vary.

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:59:56 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

At 12:11 AM 3/6/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Ken, I didn't like v1.1. But, I like v2.0. By Jove, I think you've done 
>it! Finally no more pesky half-dice. Just one small calc that can be done 
>before the game, and one (simple addition) during the game.
>
>Heck, let's just do away with that first calc and say during character 
>generation that each skill choice is worth 3 levels of skill... (I guess 
>there is some heretic in me ;-) That might be a good thing for a new 
>experience system... incremental advances of 1 to character "experience" 
>as you called it.

Here's an even simpler fix:  triple the amount of skills that are awarded
during character generation.  Now you can eliminate pre-game calculation
and every skill level is worth 1!


 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:59:53 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: What does "skill level 1" mean?

Skill levels in T4 do not have the same "value" as they did in CT.
They have been de-valued.  Given that, an explanation of each of the
skills levels is presented below.

Let's use Pilot as the placeholder.  Any other skill (engineer,
chemist, programmer) can be substituted.

Lvl  Job Title         Academic Understanding  Years Experience

0    HoloGame Pilot    read the rule book      0
1    Associate Pilot   basic                   1
2    Pilot             complete                2-3
3    Senior Pilot      advanced                4-6    
4    Lead Pilot        instructor              7-10
5    Principle Pilot   research                11-15

Skill level zero (used for T4 default skills) implies the equivalent
of reading a manual and playing the videogame.

Skill level one implies the equivalent of taking undergraduate
courses and having some initial on-the-job training.

Skill level two implies the equivalent of masters level courses and
having limited real world experience.

Skill level three implies the equivalent of doctorate level courses
and having solid experience in the work place.

Skill level four implies the equivalent of knowing a skill well
enough to get a job teaching it.

Skill level five implies the equivalent of knowing a skill well
enough to have done years of research in it.

Levels above 5 I don't think are worth defining IMO. They're simply
too nebulous.  Suffice it to say that players above level five are
very good and will routinely be able to perform staggering feats.

As a CT GM, I never rolled skill level one in normal situations.
That has been bumped up to level two in T4.

What think thou?

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:59:46 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: The cost of living in T4

T4 gives some numbers to go by when determining how much characters should
pay to maintain a certain style of living (in Cr/month):

Starvation Level 
  a bare minimum of food   60 
  dismal lodging           60
Subsistance Level
  reasonable food         120
  acceptable lodging      180
Ordinary Level
  good food               200
  good lodgin             200
High Living
  excellant food          600
  excellant accomodations 300

In my current PBeM, we had agreed that 1 Cr ~= $1.  But where could you get
"high living" for $900/month?  Not in this America.  I was trying to decide
if these numbers were bad or if my ratio was just bad.  

Here are some number from the Central Supply Catalog (CSC):

Desert Clothing - TL 1     100
Scuba Gear           6     300
Flex armor           6    1400
Leather armor        1     500
backpack             8     200
binoculars           5     100
bullhorn             6     120
flare                8      10
flashlight           5      30
machete              4      20
sleeping bag         5     200

2 sleeping bags = 1 month of ordinary living  :-)

Obviously, these numbers don't jive.  So, I'm throwing out the numbers I
found in T4 for cost of living.  I'd like to suggest these ranges.  Please
comment and suggest/correct them.

Monthly Costs

Starvation Level
  a bare minimum of food   50-150
  dismal lodging           100-250
Subsistance Level (I consider myself to be here)
  reasonable food          150-500
  acceptable lodging		250-500
Ordinary Level
  good food                500-1500
  good lodging             500-2000
High Living - 
  excellant food           1500-4000
  excellant accomodations  2000-5000

4000/month on food is about $45/meal.  I'd say that's high living, but
believeable.


What say you?

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 18:04:47 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Missing CT/MT weapons (was Re: Battledress)

At 12:08 PM 3/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>well other ways to defeat ABD or standard BD is Plasma Gun's and Fusion
>Guns.... even though to use one with out BD in the MT rules.. the weapon is
>tl 16
>it's another way to defeat the enemy... i allowed them to mount it on a
>vehicle.......or hvy tripod...... i was suprised not seeing some of the
>clasic
>weapons in the T4 rules.. like laser carbines... and  PGMP and FGMP

If you're playing T4 and missing the weapons detailed in CT and MT, check out:

  www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/t4/weapon.html

Damage, ranges, the works!

Enjoy.

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 18:00:01 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Are EDU levels absolute?

The ease of which one can get EDU = 15 bothers me.  So I'm considering
adding restrictions on getting new levels.  That brings me to a question:

Are EDU levels absolute?

Let me explain.  Let's suppose (for the sake of argument) that we all agree
on the following scale:

EDU  Formal Training
5    Junior High School
7    Senior High School
9    Undergraduate
B    Graduate
D    Doctorate
F    Post-doctorate

IF this is true, would that imply that EVERYONE with an EDU of 9 has
completed their Undergraduate degree?

Here's why that's important:  If you're going to hand out lots of EDU, then
characters should have to pay for it in terms of years added to age.  You
can generate a character who's initial UPP has a C for EDU.  He's got a
grad degree at 18 years old? 

Here's what I'm considering for a fix.  All characters start out with an
initial EDU of no MORE than 7 (a high school education); note that it could
be less.  If they go to college and complete it, then EDU = 9.   Graduate
school, then EDU = B.  And so on.

How would I cover a career that adds EDU +1?  It would be like going to
night school.  If you can get your EDU bumped up to 9, then you completed
the equivalent of a college degree.

Anybody else like this?

[PS: if you don't like this 'cause it's not Traveller canon, don't speak
up.  If I'm the GM, the only canon that matters is my canon.  I'm
interested in hearing responses based purely on the merits (or lack
thereof) of this rulechange.]

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:17:25 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Emergency Herlad Needed!

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 00:42:19 -0800
> From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: Emergency Herald Needed!
> 
> Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> > 
> > [Gosh, more SCA<->Traveller stuff]
> > 
> > If there are any heralds out there within the sound of my voice can you
> > write back immediately if you can blazon the Imperial coat of arms. I
need
> > it for the heraldry section in PE. My best guess was:
> > 
> > Sable, an annulet on a bezant rayony.
> > A black field, a black ring on a gold disk rayony.
> > 
> > Anyone with something better?
> > 
> > Jo

My heraldic credentials aren't much...but as the Founding Herald of the
Shire of Danegeld Torr, Principality of Cynagua, West Kingdom, here's my
stab at it:

Sable, a sun rayyony Or

> 
> I can see it now....
> 
> 
> College of Heralds: "Im sorry your Majesty, but we have to bounce it!"
> 
> Emperor Cleon: "Why???"
> 
> CoH: "You can't stack one charge on top of another, but look, why dont
> you consider....."

The College of Heralds exists to serve the Emperor, so...

Cleon: "See this? (pointing at Irridium Throne) THAT's why, my lord
Herald!"

- --Rich Ostorero
mka Basil of Manzikert
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 18:11:19 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

At 01:28 PM 3/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Rob writes
>>   I submit that battledress /is/ militarily obsolete, even before a
>>   world aquires the TL to first build it. (Auto GL's come in at ~TL8,
>   BD at ~TL12.) Which raises the question, why do some units use it?

>BD lets you carry better sensors, comm equipment, and much greater weights
>of ammunition.

This is really the best point, IMO.

Anyone else on this list work for the US Military?  If so, you'll recognize
these two words:

  situational awareness

For the rest of you civies, it's a fancy way of saying "I've got lots of
information on the battlefield that's all around me."  It's tactical
information.  Those who have it win wars; those who don't don't.  BD would
be a perfect mechanism for providing constant situational awareness to the
foot soldier.  Imagine a grunt having all the information that his entire
military has readily available for him to pull, sort, filter, and organize.
 That's power.  That's why I'd outfit *my* army with BD (if I could afford it).

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:27:13 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: future of the K'kree...

Chris Griffen maliciously wrote:

>The K'kree were, for all intensive purposes, wiped out. Only at the turn 
of
>the millenium (ca. 2000, Cleon dating), did explorers finally discover
>remote remnants of the race, long thought to be extinct, in the distant
>trailing reaches of the stellar arm.

<anguished yell>  NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! </anguished yell>

But really, I've been spending some time writing up what the K'kree are up 
to in M0 time (I'll post more later, but basically involved in a war with 
some trailing Vargr colonies), but I've spent some time trying to figure 
out what might have happened to them in post-Virus times as well.

From a gaming perspective, this seems to be a very boring end to the 
Centaurs, not to mention very cheap. Why throw out all that previously 
published background data?

K.C. Komosky
k'kree uber alles!
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:29:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Doctor Vince <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

At 11:20 AM 3/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I think it's interesting to note that in WWI there were lots of fencing
>style swords available for the troops in the trenches, but assault troops
>were improvising shields and battleaxes out of boiler plate and shovels
>for hand-to-hand combat. This suggests that in real life, if given a choice
>between fencing with a long blade, expertly thrusting holes into your
>enemy's vitals, or strapping some armor to one arm and hacking at your 
>opponent with a big ugly piece of steel with the other, combat troops
>adopted the old sword and shield approach. No one was screaming to be
>issued sabers for trench fighting.

Well, yeah...shields and axes are great for in close, capture-the-trench
style actions. Fencing is predicated on mobility...without that, you're
sunk. Plus any chimp can use an axe, so you don't have to worry about
training. But then again, given the trenches, why *would* you want to fence?
I'd have just stuck (like 90+% of the fighters in the trenches) with
grenades and my rifle. A Lee-Enfield will still blow neat .303 holes through
boilerplate. Someone's dumb enough to close, that's what I have my bayonet
for...

Vince
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Familiarity breeds contempt. People assume I am familiar with everything
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	"The passion of lovers is for death..."
				Bauhaus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for His Infernal Majesty, is :
		drvince@ix.netcom.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 15:36:07 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

At 05:26 PM 3/7/97 -0400, Robert Flammang wrote:
>> If that's true, then perhaps some sort of lighter, cheaper armor
>> (like Star Wars stormtroopers) is in order.  Still gives you the sensors,
>> life-support, and protection against some weapons, etc., but its cheap and
>> versatile enough that you don't worry if some of the infantry wearing them
>> get mowed down by lasers.
>
>   Very good point. As much as I scoff at the "armor" of battledress, I
>   must confess to being intrigued by the military capabilities offered
>   by its mobility and sensors. Imagine powered troops that never get
>   tired and can operate in all environments, all weather. Each
>   individual has his own array of sensors with automatic, shoulder
>   mounted, counter battery lasers. ...

You should read the book "Armor" by <Somebody> Steakly, I think.  It
describes in detail the adventures of a Scout in just such armor -- and the
Scouts were built for speed, not fast attack.  The Marines' armor was
_really_ something.


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:28:37 -0000
From: "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Psionics + Special Talents

I would be interested to see what psionic special talents people have come
up 
with for use in the Traveller game.

I have heard of the following special talents.

The ability to function as a model 1 bis (TML source)

Illusion the ability to make cargo holds appear empty
to customs agents in starport (not robots)

Pyrotechnics and the reverse.

Psionic enhancer/metaconcert (Julian May - Saga of the Exiles)

Psionic possestion (Julian May - Saga of the Exiles)

Subsumption of other Psyches and increased power (Julian May - Saga of the
Exiles)

Psionic Jump travel (FFS ?)

The ability to make all computers crash in 20meter radius (unless a focus
is worn)
This would have killed the virus.

The ability to grow a goatee beard, look swarthy and ominous etc.

- --
Dominic Reynolds                       
                                                         
nz19@dial.pipex.com              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:40:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Doctor Vince <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

At 01:49 PM 3/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>   I submit that battledress /is/ militarily obsolete, even before a
>   world aquires the TL to first build it. (Auto GL's come in at ~TL8,
>   BD at ~TL12.) Which raises the question, why do some units use it?

You have a few good ideas here that I snipped, but let me throw my .02Cr:

BD is good for a couple of things. The sensor suite is pretty good, it has
great commo gear and it is pretty invulnerable to shell fragments, small
arms except Plasma guns and suchlike...

In terms of rebuttal, though, how about this idea:

Auto grenade launchers are spiff, but the ammo supply is a bitch. I mean the
average 30 mm grenade weighs in at about .35 kilos, right? So how many can
you carry? How many men are you going to detail to just carry the ammo for
the guy with the grenade launcher? Of course you could mount it on a vehicle
with a hopper, but that limits your mobility and your choice of terrain.

Underslung grenade launchers are good too, except that you have a limited
rate of fire, high recoil, and again, limited ammunition. You have to paste
everyone with the grenades before they can get a PGMP shot on you too.
Finally you have to kill all them before they get close enough for you to
start suffering collateral damage from the fragments.

So you are right...Battledress is not invulnerable. IMHO your best bet is a
squad automatic rocket launcher, tossing HEAP directly at the guys in BD.
But have you ever looked at the statistics on life expectency in combat for
the squad auto-gunner?

Just a few more ideas...

Vince
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Familiarity breeds contempt. People assume I am familiar with everything
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	"The passion of lovers is for death..."
				Bauhaus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for His Infernal Majesty, is :
		drvince@ix.netcom.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:40:27 -0000
From: "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Zdant Virus Control Labs.

Internal Memorandum - Prole Dr Arnaalvi

URGENT ASSISTANCE FROM SORAG REQUIRED

All Nobles and Intendants, Guards and Thought Police are hearby
required to be quarantined, seeking approval from the council.
They should be confined in space facilities wherever possible.

A new stain of virus which has been killing off nobles has been
confined.  Researchers are urgently required as are volunters
from our associated centres in neighbouring systems.

The new virus encountered bypassed a number of routine quarantine
checks as the onset time was several months for the first people to 
be infected,  each subsequent generation is mutating faster.  The onset
time now being only a few days.

This should be given the highest priority.  May your thoughts be pure.


- --
Dominic Reynolds                       
                                                         
nz19@dial.pipex.com              

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 00:01:12 -0000
From: "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: BattleDress

Allright if you can trip a person in battle dress down an elevator
shaft.  How far does he have to fall before taking incapacitating
damage.

In a Cyberpunk game some lucky characters have thrown Full
Cyborgs down several flights of stairs and off the roof of tower
blocks - using akido.  Could this happen to a marine in Battledress.

- --
Dominic Reynolds                       
                                                         
nz19@dial.pipex.com              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:56:50 -0000
From: "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Joe Walsh--TLWH

- --
Dominic Reynolds                      =20
                                                        =20
nz19@dial.pipex.com             =20


>=20
> I don't recall what Andy was selling TLWH for,
>=20
>=20
> -Joe
Being a BITS member

TLWH was approx =A310 =20
101 Cargos approx =A34 =20
101 Plots approx =A34
The Software approx =A35

Total cost - just a bit above the cover price of Starships =A317 in the l=
ocal
gaming shop.

Bring back the LBB adventures - more people may get them to use in their
Spacemaster/Mechwarrior/Eternity/Space Opera/Star
Wars/Cyberpunk/2300ad/WH40k/Star Trek games.
Can you spot the two I do not have ?

or may convert them to modern game systems.

Is there to be a cheap Starter Traveller to lure new players into the
system ?
 --
Dominic Reynolds                      =20
                                                        =20
nz19@dial.pipex.com             =20

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1042
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 8 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1043



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Alien Book (Longish)
Accrete Home Page
ISBA Dinner Long
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions
Re: Raise Shields
Re: All things Nastiness
Re: Timelines
Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?
Re: BattleDress
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1028
Re: Alien Book
Re: Air Recycling Equipment
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: future of the K'kree...
THUDDD Update...
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
More Real Men, Role Players, et. al....
RE:  How Many Women on the TML

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:59:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Book (Longish)

Quoth Carlos Alos-Ferrer:
>         Anyway, four races seem too much for a book if you really want
> detail. A 96-page book could be easily split in 48-24-24 for useful material
> on a major and two minor races, but tha page count could drop too much with
> more races involved. One possibility is to include the less important races
> as a "colour addition", let's say for a page count of 46,23,23,4 or
> soemthing similar.

Well, I think a 96-page book split, say, 38-19-19-19 would provide more
than enough detail, while still allowing room for referee expansions.
Though, since IG wants to go hardcover, I was thinking of jumping to 128
pages, which would give you 50-25-25-25, the same level of detail as you
desire.

>         Well, the Answerin are surrounded by Vilani, not Vargr. As for the
> "new one", recall the Hhkar, in the middle of the Julian area.

Re: the Answerin....  So?  They are in Vland sector, which is where much
of the interaction with the Vargr will take place.  To my mind, we're not
looking for races totally bounded by the major race in question, but for
those who would be naturally encountered "en route" to the homespace of
the major race.

I have to confess that I hate the Hhkar with a passion.  (And they're not
"canon" either, having appeared in Challenge in an article by a non-GDW
author.  You can use them if you like....  I don't).
 
>         VILANI / Geonee  / Newts / Bonus: Answerin

A bit human-heavy to my mind: "true" aliens probably sell better.

>         VARGR  / Suerrat / Hhkar / Bonus: Brinn

But the Suerrat are nowhere near the Vargr!  They're way down in the
"bulge" formed by the curve of the Great Rift, in Ilelish, several sectors
away from the Vargr corsairs and such!

> >ASLAN (heralding Milieu:200, I'd suppose) rings in those honor-bound
> >	folks, along with the Geonee (who are presumably involved in
> >	"taking back" that region of space), perhaps the Ahetaowa,
> >	and the Ormine.
> 
> who are the Ahetaowa? I would rather see here the Darrian, which have a 10%
> of biological Aslan after the 600's. This makes theem not strictly M:200,
> but makes the book more coherent. As for a Bonus, I would like to see a
> write-up on the Zhodia colonies, those biologically human Aslan.
>         I.e., ASLAN / Ormine / Darrian / Bonus: Zhodia colonies

The Ahetaowa are plant-based Hierate-dwellers, detailed in a Challenge
article.  Yes, they might be a bit much after the Hresh....  As for the
Darrians, again, they fit much better into a Spinward Marches 1100-era
setting, so I'd far rather put them with the Zhodani rather than muck
about with what looks to really be a Milieu-200-centric book.

And why do you need a write-up on the Zhodia colonies?  If the bulk of the
book is about the Aslan anyway, you just use that culture with human
inhabitants and, voila, Zhodians to an excellent first approximation.  At
most you need a couple of sidebars to talk about artificial dewclaws, etc.

I like many of your other thoughts, though I'd keep the Roth Thokken as a
side mention in the Vargr volume.  As you can probably tell, I like to get
the rough outlines of a race published, but leave lots of room for
mysteries and offshoots that the referee can detail without fear of
"canon" violations.  You seem to be more of a completist.
 
>         The Droyne are scattered all around, so it could be interesting to
> put some also scattered, bizarre races with them, e.g. the Jigd-Il-Jagd
> (warning: probable misspelling). As for humans, well...... I do not really
> see any interesting minor human race fitting here. I would rather see, as a
> bonus, details on the forgotten race whose Gaadaskikaduu ruins were shown in
> Knightfall. IIRC, they were known as the "primordials".

This I like too, though I dislike the Primordials almost as much as the
Hhkar.  But Droyne + other widespread and weird races makes a nice volume.

A thought, while we're on the topic... what if IG published, for the
Milieu 0 to 200 period, a whole volume focusing purely on human minor
races?  They seem to be some of the most interesting political forces
around for the expanding Imperium to meet and understand, have always been
one of the most fascinating parts of Traveller to me, and are a feature
Traveller has that most other SFRPG's don't.
 
- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 18:45:25 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Accrete Home Page

The URL for the Accrete home page is:

http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~iburrell/create/accrete.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 19:27:52 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: ISBA Dinner Long

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
ISBA inaugurial dinner.
Authorised by Sir Jerami Djano, head of PR ISBA

In a glittering social event held in the Crystal City orbital complex
high above Sylea the newly formed ISBA held it's first formal
function.

Attended by a veritable who's who of both the Imperial shipbuilding
industry and Sylean high society, the event marked the formal
inception of the ISBA.

The keynote speakers included: Josphanoer Cailfor master of Ceremonies
and representative for Founder Ship Works; Vice-Consul Joshua Von
Brandili spokes person for FernZukunft Unbegrenzt of Altec
Confederation; Sir Ira Rimmer of The Bureau of Spacecraft Safety,
Heath, and Transit Standards

Josphanoer Cailfor spoke of the inception of the ISBA, its direction
and the need for its existance

  "If this is true what should we do to lead the way.? Well you have
   received the ISBA organizational idea, and have chosen your place.
   We must first and foremost organize ourselves. Too many design
   philosophies exist they must be brought together. Second as the
   Imperium grows a common representation of business information must
   be created so that decisions can be made by all quickly and
   accurately. Finally we must be sure that the we are properly
   represented with the Imperium."

Joshua Von Brandili spoke on the great romance and adventure that is
space and the need for reliable and dependable vessels to conquer it

  "Tonight, you stand on the docks, as young adventurers venture into
  the
   heavens. May they return in glory and put their arms on your
   shoulders because you build a ship for him to go thither and back."

Ira Rimmer (representative of the Imperial Bureau of Spacecraft
Safety, Heath, and Transit Standards) spoke of the need for proper
regulation and accountablity within the industry and the need for a
joint approach in working out these regulations

  "...competition has shown that many designers will modify whatever
  they
   can to squeese a little extra cargo space or a little more profit
   into their ship. Sometimes with disastrous results. Would any ship
   carry a separate astrogator if some regulation did not demand it?
   What of convertible fuel tanks that are inherently dangerous? I
   challenge you all to step away from your supposedly enlightened
   facades and answer these rhetorical questions honestly. Yes,
   someone must be a watchdog."

  "With the formation of the Imperial Starship Builders Association,
  we
   of this conference have a valuable opportunity to further this
   mission as never before known in the history of manned spaceflight.
   We can work together and mold these regulations into a better and
   brighter whole, and to this end I am personally devoted."


The highlight of the gathering was however without doubt, the 
arrival of His Serene Highness, Emperor Cleon himself. The Emperor
spoke of the need for the new Imperium to face the challanges of the
new frontiers, both physical and spiritual, to boldly embrace the new
technologies that are now being developed; and above all to work to
ensure the future of the great Imperium. To quote his own words:

  "And that frontier presents problems that will inevitably stand in
  our
   way. We can solve each of the physical problems, but what continues
   to trouble me is the fact that each of us here is human. Our empire
   must, if it is to survive, embrace each intelligence that resides
   in it, and if necessary make special provision to bring each
   intelligence to its greatest possible level of achievement..."

  "...Our empire must be eclectic and cosmopolitan, embracing everyone
   it meets, absorbing them under an umbrella that protects and
   enhances them. The safety and security that we create will give us
   and our children's children the opportunity to live out our lives
   in peace and prosperity."

  "Remember that both the Ziru Sirka and the Rule of Man collapsed
  from
   their own shortcomings. We must not allow that to happen again."

  "I thank you all for being here tonight, and although I must leave,
  ask
   you to embrace this philosophy of empire and make it a reality."

The Emperor also took the opportunity to announce the appointment of
Duchess Zhunette Rosale Cardell as his offical liason with the ISBA.

In response to the Emperor's challange, the ISBA has announced several
new initatives: firstly the online information service currently in
the process of being set up will be open to the general public.
Secondly, the ISBA is currently looking into the possibility of
endowing a chair of Naval Architecture at one of the Imperium's
leading academic institutions. Thirdly the THUDDD design project is to
be centralised and formalised; and strict confromance to the relevant
astrospace regulations will be a requirement of all future designs.
Finally, the ISBA has undertaken to do all within it's power to ensure
that it's membership is as diverse as is possible. To that end the
ISBA is intending to hold high level talks with those within the
industry who have choosen to remain outside it's structure with the
intent of working through outstanding problems.

*****Role-Playing off*****************

Well this sums up the first dinner of the ISBA I think over all it 
went pretty good, except for a few ISP that I had.  As the message 
implies there will very soon be a separate ISBA mailing list.  This 
will be open to all who are intrested in the ISBA ideas.  This will 
prevented us from takeing over the main list.  Though you will hear 
from us every once in awhile.  If I am not mistaken THUDD will also 
be handle via this list.

Instructions will follow about the ISBA mailing list from Paul 
shortly

The main thing I would like to do is thank the following people.

CmdrX for helping get this off the ground

Paul Walker for providing the ISBA mailing list

Andrew Vallance for his supper writting skills, believe me I didnt do 
                            the press release this time.

JD Burdick for his speech and his 40 parsec travelle to the meeting

Brian Howard who in just a few seconds knew what I wanted to do and 
                        came up with Rimmer,  the man we will all 
                        love to hate.

Finally a special thanks to Marc Miller for playing the Emperor who 
else good do it : )

Thats it for now 

Tim
tim@premier.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 19:32:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Mike Wasson (FMG)" <wasson@io.com>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

> IF this is true, would that imply that EVERYONE with an EDU of 9 has
> completed their Undergraduate degree?
> 
> Here's why that's important:  If you're going to hand out lots of EDU, then
> characters should have to pay for it in terms of years added to age.  You
> can generate a character who's initial UPP has a C for EDU.  He's got a
> grad degree at 18 years old? 

Doesn't this assume that all worlds in the Imperium work just like 20th 
Century Earth? Maybe different societies teach people at different rates. 
(It's a standard of the Heinlein juveniles that 15-year-olds know 
advanced calc, for example...) 

I always figured EDU measured how much factual knowledge you have about 
the universe, whether you got that at a university, being apprenticed 
into the technocratic priesthood at age 12, or whatever. 


Mike


+------Mike Wasson------wasson@io.com-----http://www.io.com/~wasson/-----+
 You can fly away to the end of the world, 
 but where does it get you? (Pet Shop Boys)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 20:35:36 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions

Paul Zumstein wrote:
> 
> >
> >So post something!  Do a write up of a world, start a discussion on
> >political tension between the Duke of Regina and The Duchess of Mora, hold
> >forth on Sword World Military tactics..
> >
> 
> Now here are some subjects that I would really be interested in.  Can anybody
> give me some ideas of what the Sword Worlds political and military structure is
> a 1100?  What sort of expansion ambitions do they have?  What are they trying
> to accomplish politically or militarily?
> 
> I have a few of my own ideas that I use in my CT era campaign, but I don't know
> if they hold true to the actual history.  I would also be interested in any
> other ideas or backgrounds of current or past campaigns.

IIRC, they didn't have any. Or rather, because they were bordered by
the Zhodani Consulate on one side, Zho or Imperial client worlds on all
the others (except one side), and the Darrians on the last their 
"ambitions" were basically a pipe dream. Although the Darrians weren't
aggressive at all, they *did* have that pesky solar flare inducer which
scared the bejeebers out of the Sworld Worlders and even made the Zhos
AND the Imperium oh so polite.

Although not all the worlds nearby were "client states", keep in mind
that the systems of the Sworld Worlds controlled their own navies.
There wasn't a permanent overall command structure in place which had
permanent control. All the political infighting made it very difficult
to use all the fleets in a concerted effort. Even during the Fifth
Frontier War, SW fleets were used by the Zhos in a diversionary attack
on the Lanth subsector while the mainline Zhos went on a blitzkrieg for
Rhylanor via Regina. It almost worked...

Of course, in combat, there ain't no trophy for second place.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 20:50:47 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Raise Shields

Steve Charlton/IFSNA wrote:
> 
> I would imagine the Imperium would have decent "high tech" shields as well.
> Like the SWAT shields, they would not be much good in a running battle, but if
> you are defending a position or trying to advance on a defended position, they
> could be useful additions to the regular armor.  And cheaper, too; why spend
> money on Combat Armor for your MP Marines when you can give them a Combat
> Environment Suit and sheilds; quite sufficient for low-order threats, and you
> can still have a ready team of Marine riflemen in armor available for hot
> situations.

As a matter of fact, DGP described and illustrated a small shield that
was specifically designed for use with the Imperial Marine Scout version
of battledress...one of the few things DGP put out that I was
disappointed in.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:10:15 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness

Antti Lahtinen wrote:

>         All Solomani boidroids were thoughtto be destroyed                            >         during the resulting Gene Wars (~AD 2705- 2713),                              >          and official Solomani history is actively
>         trying to forget what happened.
- --That`s what we wanted people to beleive.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:10:21 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Timelines

Chris Griffen wrote:
(snip)
> Hey, I loved the CT setting, but Virus (sorry it debunked your cushy little
> universe, guys) is no less possible than any of the other scenarios foisted
> upon us by GDW over the years.
(snip again)
- --The problem I have with the virus is the fact that it is supposed to
have come out of the blue and trashed everything.I know it was a TS
research program but even so...are you going to try and tell me that
no-one made or used anti-virus software like Norton`s or Doctor
Solomon`s in the 1100`s?Come on,get with the game!Most virii written
today are written by students,I fail to see any reason why this should
change.Therefore I fail to see why there shouldn`t be anti-virus
software around.Bearing in mind the fact that Virus was TL15+ or
TL16-,Imperial Intelligence at the least would have had software that
could deal with it.When Virus hits my sector in my Traveller campaign
it`ll bounce-hard. "Hi,I`m a TL16- computer virus."."HELLO,I`M A TL21
COMPUTER,GO AWAY."OK,the TL21 stuff is absolute top of the line but even
so,there has been virii used to sabotage computers in my campaign for
millenia so a poxy new virus isn`t going to be as crippling as it was to
that joke of an Imperium.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 20:30:35 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

Paul Walker did mutter:

> >(And btw, it's great to see that we have a woman _running_ a game too.)
> 
> Yeah and she's great at it too.
> 
> Suz -- can we have a jump capeable Ship's Boat?

I didn't see this post come through with an AAB: heading on it, Paul. 
 Therefore, this request never happened. <G>

Suz
 

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 14:33:52 +1100
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: BattleDress

At 00:01 8/03/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Allright if you can trip a person in battle dress down an elevator
>shaft.  How far does he have to fall before taking incapacitating
>damage.

As far as a normal person.
It's the conversion of Gravitional potential energy to Kinetic energy that
will do the damage.
When the PC/NPC hits the ground, the BD may come to a halt relatively
intact, but the poor sap inside will try to keep moving through the BD.
Hence he will take damage just like those without armor (maybe 1D less, to
take into account some of the padding).


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 22:41:12 -0400
From: Christian Razukas <chrisraz@clark.net>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

>Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 12:19:50 -0800
>From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
>Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

<snip>

>If that's true, then perhaps some sort of lighter, cheaper armor
>(like Star Wars stormtroopers) is in order.

Lighter, cheaper armor indeed!  Do you too hear the sound of Imperial
Marines running screaming from the briefing room upon hearing that Battle
Dress will be replaced by the armor that didn't really work against a
single laser blast in three movies?

Next up:  Replacing armor on Sylean fighters with the fine armor used on
Imperial TIE Fighters!   <g>

"To all you workers out there: every single commodity you produce is a
piece of your own death."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 20:16:12 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1028

At 04:50 pm 03/05/97 -0800, Chris Griffen wrote:
>While on the subject, I will say that I think reverting to the CT rules as
>the basis for a new game was a big mistake. TNE's mechanics are simply the
>best, most realistic I've ever come across. And the task system is par
>excellence. It functions great and is only marginally more difficult to
>learn and use than that of MT. And the results are far more realistic
>roleplaying.

	Heretic! 

	So which position do you want in the pantheon of Traveller Evil Unlimited?
The Four Horsemen are already claimed, but otherwise the field's fairly
wide open ...

>TNE's problem was the poor background material. The setting was unpopular,
>a fact that never seemed to register with the game's authors.
>Unfortunately, dislike of the setting sullied peoples' opinions of the
>entire game. Sort of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

	I tend to believe the same...people developed an intense dislike for
Virus, especially, and weren't willing to even consider the game system by
itself. Unfortunately, the setting was so interwoven into the rules, it
made it doubly hard.

>I didn't like the RCES setting either, so I conducted a Regency campaign.

	I kind of liked the RC concept, and the Regency sourcebook wasn't
immediately available (another mistake). By the time it came out, I'd
already grown attached to the RC setting (as modified by moi).

- -- Famine, of the Four Horsemen of Traveller Heresy.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 22:57:04 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:
> SOLOMANI provides information on them, whatever minor branch of humaniti
>         is closest (hasn't been developed much!), the Vegans, and, hm,
>         maybe the triplet of neo-chimps / neo-dolphins, / neo-orcas.

VEGANS, VEGANS, VEGANS
We want real rules for Vegans (don't make them some sort of weird cult)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 22:55:43 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Air Recycling Equipment

Dedly@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I've got a pc complaining about an apparent backsliding in tech over air
> recycling equipment in starships. He spent a couple years on submarine duty
> and claims that their CO2 exchangers, etc. work better than the ones in Trav.
> He bases this on the fact that subs can stay underwater longer than starships
> can go between "airing up."

One word: MEDIUM

(more words, subs can crack O2 from seawater. It is probably unlikely to crack O2 from 1 
hydrogen atom per cubic meter)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:53:21 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:28:01 -0800, you wrote:

> Finally, high-TL BD will probably include some sort of built-in fire =
control,
> using the suit's sensors to move the arms to aim carried weapons - =
making
> the BD soldier as accurate as a computerized tank.

Reminds me of one of my favourite Japanimation movies... Madox: Metal
Skin Panic.  I like powered armour that I can put on autopilot to
shoot down hostile Apaches while I'm out taking a leak (or something
like that :)

Which brings up another point... what about heavier infantry armour
such as the traditional Anime/Heinlein powersuit in Traveller?  I know
Traveller has been around since before the now-too-common use of
powered armour in animation and books, but has there ever been any
official GDW (et al) information or background regarding their use in
the Traveller Universe(tm)?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:53:23 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

I've never liked the idea of an EDU stat for roleplaying games that
also use Skills.  Traveller, however, takes it one step further, by
providing characters with EDU stats, Skills, and even a specific skill
called "Jack of all Trades".  Yikes!  Talk about covering all your
bases!

T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."

Acknowledging this, EDU cannot be absolute.  The more a character
learns, the higher his or her EDU should become.  The problem, of
course, is that some skills are linked to Education...

If a game system uses skills, the inclusion of an EDU statistic should
be used simply to cover skills that aren't covered by the game system,
of for defaulting to skills not posessed by the character.  By very
definition, characters with high skills should also have high EDU,
since EDU defines the character's education (ie: the skills and
knowledge s/he posesses).

Just MHO.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 23:04:19 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: future of the K'kree...

K.C. Komosky wrote:
> 
> Chris Griffen maliciously wrote:
> 
> >The K'kree were, for all intensive purposes, wiped out. Only at the turn
> of
> >the millenium (ca. 2000, Cleon dating), did explorers finally discover
> >remote remnants of the race, long thought to be extinct, in the distant
> >trailing reaches of the stellar arm.
> 
> <anguished yell>  NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! </anguished yell>
> 
> But really, I've been spending some time writing up what the K'kree are up
> to in M0 time (I'll post more later, but basically involved in a war with
> some trailing Vargr colonies), but I've spent some time trying to figure
> out what might have happened to them in post-Virus times as well.

INTENSIVE purposes? What about casual purposes?

Anyway, the K'kree are conservative, not stupid. They are big, strong, smart and work 
well in a team environment. If a bunch of monkeys can survive, so can bloody big horses

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:10:45 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: THUDDD Update...

	OK... in case you're wondering, I haven't forgotten you all.  I'll
try and get to getting things out to the list by Sunday (9th of March)
afternoon.  I'll be accepting entries until then.  Please note that posting
to the list does not constitute an official entry: you've got to send them
to me.

	Over & out...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 23:10:44 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
>         Whether this argument was just a political defence or not, the
> reasoning sounds good. In fact, I am assuming that the max. damage that a
> Geonee can receive is 4D rather than 3D. And, well, this immediately raises
> the question: Is the Max.Damage rule race-related? Which races will fit into
> the 3D, and which will go to 4D? Will some race qualify for a 2D max.? As a
> preliminary thought, I think that maybe Droyne/Chirpers will go for 4D, but
> that most of the major races will reasonably be 3D (Aslan, Vargr, most
> humans). 

Only one prob, for animals max dice is weight/50kg
By "official" standards, Geonee, Droyne and their fellow runts are the most damage 
resistant races around.
Note: Droyne weigh between 25-50kg, Max dice 1D
K'kree weigh 550 kg, max dice 11D
Thus it is easier to kill a K'kree with a big game rifle than a droyne (and don't hand me any 
malarkey about wasted kinetic energy, shoot a rabbit with a 7.62mm NATO round and then 
tell me if any energy was "wasted")

BTW, a friend of mine did that. Bunny go boom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:03:02 -0400
From: Christian Razukas <chrisraz@clark.net>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

>Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 18:00:01 -0500
>From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
>Subject: Are EDU levels absolute?

>IF this is true, would that imply that EVERYONE with an EDU of 9 has
>completed their Undergraduate degree?

>Here's why that's important:  If you're going to hand out lots of EDU, then
>characters should have to pay for it in terms of years added to age.  You
>can generate a character who's initial UPP has a C for EDU.  He's got a
>grad degree at 18 years old?

I don't think a high EDU equals formal education.  To illustrate, according
to the T4 rulebook, Biology skill is governed by INT and/or EDU.  It
further states that EDU is important for Biology due to the vast amount of
detail a person is required to memorize, e.g. what separates this species
from that species, how does a liver work, how does a orgainism's excretion
process work.  That's all data that someone can read in a textbook.  You
don't need to have a MS in Biology to understand theory and apply it on a
limited basis.  Think of all the Audubon Societies in the States - people
with specific knowledge of the environment and nature, yet not necessarily
college educated.

Or let's say I make a successful Biology/EDU skill role in recognizing a
tree-like H'resh alien.  I've got Biology-1 and EDU A.  I make the skill
role not due to my skill from college but mostly due to the knowledge
gleaned from all those Year Zero Discovery Channel Programs on the
tree-like H'Resh I watched that are reflected in my general EDU background.

In my campaigns, someone with a high EDU may have gone to graduate
school...or may be person with a high INT, low SO who couldn't afford
college but who still had an "insaitable curiosity" and is constantly
reading biology texts (or whatever).

IMHO, that gives one more flexibility when roleplaying.


"To all you workers out there: every single commodity you produce is a
piece of your own death."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:31:36 -0400
From: Christian Razukas <chrisraz@clark.net>
Subject: More Real Men, Role Players, et. al....

Favorite Alien Race

Real Men:	Aslan 	(Proud Warrior Race!)
Role Players:	K'Kree 	(Militant Vegetarians!)
Loonies:	Vargr 	(Daring Fashion Designers!  Just think of the Colors!)
Munchkins:	Droyne 	(But only the TL35 Children of Grandfather)


Favorite Rebellion Faction

Real Men:	Norris
Role Players:	Margaret
Loonies:	Brzk (I dont have a joke...I just like saying "Brzk")
Munchkins:	Lucan ("Kill them all.  God will know his own.").


Favorite Sector

Real Men:	Spinward Marches
Role Players:	Massila
Loonies:	Reft (runner up: Riftspan Reaches)
Munchkins:	Core: Behind the Black Curtain

"To all you workers out there: every single commodity you produce is a
piece of your own death."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 21:13:30 +0300
From: Nikki Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE:  How Many Women on the TML

Hello!

Apologies up front in case I am dragging extraneous email baggage with 
me -- this is my first time posting from my new server.

Ah...(standing up) I think I would be TWO.

Niko

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1043
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 8 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1044



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Blunt Trama Damage
Old MegaTraveller resources
Re: Obselete Armor = Battledress
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043
Re: Setting discussion
Re: Air Recycling Equipment
Re: Battledress
Re: Galanglic & High Sylean
Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?
Re: Accrete program
RE: The cost of living in T4
Swords On Ship
Re: Melee- Facts vs Games
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Old MegaTraveller resources
RE: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Accrete program
Re: resource material
Re: Battle Dress

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 00:35:52 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Blunt Trama Damage

"Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> asks,

>If we keep blunt trauma as written, then a butt nekkid 
>character (being hit by a 6 D6 weapon) will take 3 D6 damage.  A 
>character in flex AV3 armor, though, will take 3 D6 + 3 damage.
>Now, why are you saying that a character in armor should take more 
>damage than a butt nekkid character?

Because 3f armor (flexible armor rating 3) is *not intended* for use
against 6D weapons, that's why. If you are hit by a 2D weapon, you're
laughing. But if you get hit with a 6D weapon, kinetic energy is absorbed
by the armor, which gives you one heck of a nasty bruise. If you had been
nekkid, that extra kinetic energy would have been wasted, because the
rounds would've pierced right through you. Hence, no bruise. You would've
taken less damage.

I think it makes perfect sense that being naked is preferable to wearing
flex armor ***against weapons with a higher penetration than the armor was
intended to protect against***.

You're forgetting is that the maximum damage rule isn't some arbitary
magical law intended to keep characters alive; it's based on simple
physics: if a bullet passes through you, your body only absorbs some of its
kinetic energy, the rest will be lost. You're also forgetting that 3f armor
isn't intended to be used against weapons with a damage of 6D.

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 00:01:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Brad Vender <vender@plains.nodak.edu>
Subject: Old MegaTraveller resources

Currently, I'm in the middle of starting up a MegaTraveller campaign,
  with the down side that I haven't played or refereed it since back
  when TNE was coming out, and I was wondering what was still available
  in the way of computerized gaming aids for MT.  Specifically, I remember
  there once being a Windows character generation program, and was
  wondering if anyone still had either the program or the source code for
  it?
BTW:  Does anyone know what happened to the old computer aided traveller
  list, and the projects that were in the works at the time?
- --Brad

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 22:25:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Obselete Armor = Battledress

  I agree with the rest of what you have to say but the didactic histroy
professor in me must correct a minor error:

> Which leads me to the other possibility.  Maybe ABD _isn't_ like an M1
> tank (though I like that thought).  Maybe the use of ABD is more like
> the use of fighting lines and formations by the Napoleonic-era British
> fighting the American colonial rebels.  Theirs was a good tactic that no
> longer made sense.  

  The defeat of the British Army on the battlefield in the Revolutionary
War was carried out by American troops (Continental Line) trained in the
exact tactics the British used.  With the aid of French troops and the
French Navy (Americans were lucky this period was one where the French
Navy could fight on fairly equal terms with the British due to innovations
in warship design and construction), General Washington was able to meet
the British army on the battlefield on fairly equal terms, at least in
the later years of the war.  

  Contrary to popular myth, American militia units were fairly worthless
in combat terms - their real role was tarring and feathering those still
trying to be loyal to George III.  This kept the British from controlling
areas that their army had marched through, and denied victory in much the
same way Vietnamese irregulars denied large parts of the coutryside to
American troops through their "work" with the people. 

  Sorry to bring this up - I like your other ideas about the function of
Battledress as a mobility enhancer and support.  Years of teaching the
American History Survey course has made me sensitive to popular myths
about history and the need to correct them.

  I might add one other point - modern infantry armor, esp. flak jackets,
are not primarily designed to stop enemy infantry weapos.  Rather, they
are designed to shied the soldier from the major killer on the modern
battlefield:  artillery, in particular the low-velocity fragments from
exploding shells that accounted for a high percentage of deaths in the
World Wars and Korea.  Perhaps Battledress is designed to enhance the
survivability of troops in the face of bombardment.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 01:33:29 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043

>Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 21:13:30 +0300
>From: Nikki Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
>Subject: RE:  How Many Women on the TML
>
>Hello!
>
>Apologies up front in case I am dragging extraneous email baggage with 
>me -- this is my first time posting from my new server.
>
>Ah...(standing up) I think I would be TWO.
>
>Niko

Welcome niko! Glad to hear from you! You should join us on #traveller on the
Undernet or on IG some night! I know Suz would enjoy talking with you :)

Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 01:29:06 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: Setting discussion

>From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
>
>Chris Griffen wrote:
>(snip)
>> Hey, I loved the CT setting, but Virus (sorry it debunked your cushy little
>> universe, guys) is no less possible than any of the other scenarios foisted
>> upon us by GDW over the years.
>(snip again)
>- --The problem I have with the virus is the fact that it is supposed to
>have come out of the blue and trashed everything.I know it was a TS
>research program but even so...are you going to try and tell me that
>no-one made or used anti-virus software like Norton`s or Doctor
>Solomon`s in the 1100`s?Come on,get with the game!Most virii written
>today are written by students,I fail to see any reason why this should
>change.Therefore I fail to see why there shouldn`t be anti-virus
>software around.

Nope!  The problem (and I get the impression from the Virus flame wars of
fall 96 that this is common) is that you assume that Virus is just a little
program sitting out there waiting to trash someone's machine.  That is
simply not true. Virus is a living sentient organism.  It was viable early
in the CT setting (based on Survival Margin) and took the form of carefully
controlled, sub-intelligent Deyo chips in the Transponder of EVERY SHIP
LEGALLY operating within the Imperium.  Therefore when the semi intelligent
destroyer Virus was released from Lucan's labs, it had breeding ground in
EVERY SHIP LEGALLY operating within the Imperium.

>Bearing in mind the fact that Virus was TL15+ or
>TL16-,Imperial Intelligence at the least would have had software that
>could deal with it.

Not necessarily.  IIRC, all the controls that were availabe and in place
were destroyed when Dulinor raided the Research Station.  As I recall, Virus
was not yet viable as a weapon when Dulinor raided and therefore was only
controlable in a lab situation.  Well, Dulinor's happy fleet entered and
destroyed the lab releasing Virus in the fray.

>When Virus hits my sector in my Traveller campaign
>it`ll bounce-hard. "Hi,I`m a TL16- computer virus."."HELLO,I`M A TL21
>COMPUTER,GO AWAY."OK,the TL21 stuff is absolute top of the line but even
>so,there has been virii used to sabotage computers in my campaign for
>millenia so a poxy new virus isn`t going to be as crippling as it was to
>that joke of an Imperium.

Maybe not in your home brew universe, but Virus is a plot device of the
Official Universe.  Even still, you have to remember that IF you use the
standard Imperial transponder, Virus already has a buddy to talk to that
understands at the very least how to interface with your computer if not how
to run your computer.  Also, you have to realize that no simple virus
protection software is going to stop Virus (note the difference in caps).
Virus is sentient and knows what it is doing (one of the things programmed
into it was how to breed and it breeds more Virus that already knows how to
breed).  Rather than consider a students prank virus program attacking your
virus protection system, consider a VERY experienced programmer/systems
administrator attacking the same virus protection system.  At first, it
might have some trouble, but unless the attack was returned (the virus
software tried to eliminate Virus on the sending system) it would be still
alive, and since it is sentient, it would learn a little bit more about the
next time.

Just a couple suggestions before this single message degenerates into yet
another Virus flame war...

1. To those of you who just hate Virus for whatever reason, that's OK by me,
I mentioned above that things might work differently for neil in his
universe, and if you don't want Virus in yours, that's fine, but don't have
a hissy fit because I (or any one else) talks about it here.

2. To those who DO want to enter the conversation, do it politely and kindly
and remember 3 things:

       A. NO ONE (period) has the experience to accurately describe what a
silicon life form will be capeable of.

       B. NO ONE (and I don't care how much experience you have with
computers) has the experience with TL8 or TL9 (or maybe even 10) computers
to accurately tell what computers will be like in the TL15/16/17 Imperium.

       C.  Before you try to make any major assertions about why Virus just
can't work, do everyone a favor and read the source material.  This includes
Survival Margin, TNE Main Book, and Vampire Fleets (Regency Sourcebook
couldn't hurt).  Anyone who has not read at the very least Survival Margin
and the TNE book has absolutely NO business discussing the validity of Virus.

Thank you for your time and sorry for the rant. :)

Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:36:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Air Recycling Equipment

> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 22:55:43 +0000
> From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
> 
> Dedly@aol.com wrote:
> > I've got a pc complaining about an apparent backsliding in tech over air
> > recycling equipment in starships. He spent a couple years on submarine duty
> > and claims that their CO2 exchangers, etc. work better than the ones in Trav.
> > He bases this on the fact that subs can stay underwater longer than starships
> > can go between "airing up."
> 
> One word: MEDIUM
> 
> (more words, subs can crack O2 from seawater. It is probably unlikely to crack O2 from 1 
> hydrogen atom per cubic meter)

Subs *could* do this, in theory, but I'm unaware of any sub that's ever
done so in real life.  Subs use CO2-cracking and scrubbing/filtering to
(re)create breathable air...and a boomer can easily stay submerged, a
totally closed system, for six months at a time.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 02:42:38 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

>   I submit that battledress /is/ militarily obsolete, even before a
>   world aquires the TL to first build it. (Auto GL's come in at ~TL8,
>   BD at ~TL12.) Which raises the question, why do some units use it?

As I stated before, my BD is more powerful than most of the suits I have
seen in Traveller.  While Auto GL's can do damage, they have to hit the
fast moving stealthy trooper, and get past the auto defenses (Auto
detect grenade, blow claymore type explosive in general direction, say
goodby to pesky grenade, missile, etc. as well as any unarmored troops
in close proximity)
Needless to say, this style of armor is rare, used only in extreme
measures, and without any unarmored friendly troops in the area)

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 02:17:41 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Galanglic & High Sylean

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> 
>         Seems to me that, right after the Long Night, we can NOT safely
> assume that there is a *main* language around. I see some worlds speaking
> degenerated forms of Vilani mixed with Solomani languages, and all this
> being confronted to the High Sylean brought by the new Imperial powers... in
> a few centuries, it will all get mixed and we will have... ta-daaa....
> Galactic! Ooops, sorry, Galanglic (in my heretic campaigns, English was
> *not* a major language and Galactic is a mixture of Spanish and Vilani <G>)

Not only would a mixture of words occur but so would a drift from the
standard *meaning* of words. A short story from a book called "The Long
Night" is a perfect example.

The pilot/owner of a small starship (equivalent to an Imperial scout)
looking for trading opportunities came across a planet and ran up
against the local equivalent of Air Force interceptors. They asked him
if he and his crew were "friends coming to do business." When he
emphatically replied in the affirmative, they promptly shot him down.
It seems that the word "friends" became the local equivalent of
"pirates" and "doing business" meant looting and plundering.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 02:25:52 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

On 03/07/97 at 09:20 AM,  "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com> said:

> In either case, if you are interested in starting or joining a game,
> please email me your intentions.  

I may be starting another one soon too. ;->

> I am working with IG to have a page of games in progress and a
> waiting list for players who desire to join a game and refs who
> are beginning a game and looking for players.  I think there are
> alot more of us who would use this medium to play, if we had the
> opportunity.  In my case it is because I work full time and have
> two small children.  FTF opportunities are few and far between.

> Do you want me to go into what I feel is necessary to ensure a good PBeM
> game?

Absolutely!  I already pontificated on that subject, so it's your turn. 
;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 02:17:18 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Accrete program

On 03/06/97 at 10:26 PM,  "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
said:

> > Wow...I ran it about twenty times before I got a habitable planet, and
> > then it was one with a thin atmosphere. (Only .25 atm) OTOH runaway
> > greenhouse effects are quite common.

> You did well.  I never did find a humanly habitable planet running that
> program. 

Yes, he did.  I must have run it 100 times before I got a habitable planet.

> However, what is to say there wouldn't possibly be other forms of life
> there besides humanoid?

This is true. ;->  Of course, I was looking for *humanly* habitable
planets.

So, I wrote my own program that creates systems. It generates Stars
(including stellar type, class and subclass), including binary and trinary
systems, and all the planets (both inner system and outer system), but it
doesn't do moons.

To make the systems more human friendly, I added in some
biological-homostatis stuff. Now, It's too generous in creating habitable
planets. You almost always get at least 1 planet and sometimes 2 or 3 in
every system. ;-> When I get a chance I've got to tone down the temperture
moderation, make the run-away icebox and greenhouse more likely, and take
tidal locking into account (yeah, I should have done that already, but I
didn't think I'd be getting habitable planets that close :).

I haven't released this yet, because it's *really* rough, but I have been
using it to generate systems in a couple of my games already. My next task,
after toning down the homostatis a little, is to allow user input of the
system type, and the classes of stars. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 00:45:41 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: The cost of living in T4

James Garriss proposed the following figures for T4 basic economics. I like 
them much better than the, broken, economic figures that the Traveller 
Universe has always had. Compare James' figures to the rule for starship 
crew salaries.
Monthly Costs
Starvation Level: a bare minimum of food, 50-150; dismal lodging, 100-250
Subsistence Level: reasonable food, 150-500; acceptable lodging, 	250-500
Ordinary Level: good food, 500-1500; good lodging, 500-2000
High Living: excellent food, 1500-4000; excellent accommodations, 2000-5000
4000/month on food is about $45/meal.  I'd say that's high living, but 
believable.

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end

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:26:36 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Swords On Ship

Swords on spaceships? Here is a list of useful weapons for shipboard & 
close quarters combat: 
1. Submachinegun
2. Shotgun
3. Bayonet
4. Pistol
5. Fragmentation grenade
6. Nail bomb
<I have omitted an unsubtle hint about SCA swordfighting>
**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...

"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 04:49:16 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Melee- Facts vs Games

I find the current dialog on melee weapons interesting, and strangely
similar.  My battle-ax/broadsword vs. rapier/saber  friends had this
conversation several (no, better make that about 12=85 methinks I am
getting old) years ago.  We ended up at about the same place as this
conversation.  We agreed to disagreed.

However, in game terms, how would anyone handle something like this:

Our daring PC (9B97CB Rapier 2) agrees to step into the dueling circle
on some low tech world.  With a few practice swings he is ready to face=85
Our daring local NPC (B99C74 B-sword 3)=20

The crowd goes wild!! =20

Gentleman, pick up your dice and do a quick role play with your alter
ego. Let me know what assumptions you make an addition to the general
outline above.  I would like to see a brief description of the fight.=20
No cheating.  You can pick any system, just give us a warning to what it
is.

I have done several of these with different stats and skill levels
(about 12 years ago when we were developing my current House Traveller
Combat System) Somewhere are the results.  If anyone is interested, I
will try and find the box and share.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:46:22 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

Mused wrote:

<snippage of Carlos's post> 

> Only one prob, for animals max dice is weight/50kg
> By "official" standards, Geonee, Droyne and their fellow runts are the most damage
> resistant races around.
> Note: Droyne weigh between 25-50kg, Max dice 1D
> K'kree weigh 550 kg, max dice 11D
> Thus it is easier to kill a K'kree with a big game rifle than a droyne (and don't hand me any
> malarkey about wasted kinetic energy, shoot a rabbit with a 7.62mm NATO round and then
> tell me if any energy was "wasted")
> 
> BTW, a friend of mine did that. Bunny go boom

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. From previous posts re: max dice, I took it
that the higher the max. number of dice a critter took, the *easier*
it is to blow it away (it's taking more damage).

A short Chirper with hollow bird bones has much less body mass than a
K'kree. Because of the inherent weakness in its body structure (as
opposed to a K'kree), the max dice should be higher than that of a
K'kree to reflect how much easier it is to take the little sucker.

At least this appears to be the effect. Am I missing something?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:50:18 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Old MegaTraveller resources

Brad Vender wrote:
> 
> Currently, I'm in the middle of starting up a MegaTraveller campaign,
>   with the down side that I haven't played or refereed it since back
>   when TNE was coming out, and I was wondering what was still available
>   in the way of computerized gaming aids for MT.  Specifically, I remember
>   there once being a Windows character generation program, and was
>   wondering if anyone still had either the program or the source code for
>   it?

I still have it. I'll kick you a copy as soon as I can .ZIP it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 02:42:39 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Are EDU levels absolute?

James Garriss said:
The ease of which one can get EDU = 15 bothers me.
 Are EDU levels absolute?
I have already instituted a similar system. You have articulated much 
better than I my feelings on this issue. Of course now we have to look at 
the EDU prerequisite to start college and develop a GED.

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end

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 00:04:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Accrete program

In mail you write:

> Weeeell, not quite. A couple months ago I worked with the developer of
> Accrete and asked him to allow some input. He sent me a zipped file of
> version 3.0 which allows the physical aspect of the main world to be
> keyed in (I think). I have yet to unzip it though but I'll be happy to
> send the file to anyone who wants to play with it.

I'd like a copy of that!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:56:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: resource material

In mail you write:

> 2) Andre Norton "Sargasso of Space/Plague Ship/Postmarked the Stars" -
> Trader Fiction.

"Voodoo Planet" goes between "Plague Ship" and "Postmarked the Stars".
It's short, so it was usually found as half of an Ace Double.

Other useful Norton:

"Storm Over Warlock"/"Ordeal in Otherwhere"
"???? Janus"/"Victory on Janus"
"Night of Masks"
"The Zero Stone"/"Uncharted Stars"


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:31:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

In mail you write:

> What do you do to beat someone in BD,A?  Get ahold of a plasma rifle, or a
> HEAP greande, or wait for him to take his helmet of and drop him with a
> sniper.  Onboard ship, open all the airlocks and blow him out, crank the
> grav plates up to 3G, or turn th inertial compensators off and fly an
> evasion pattern.  Hell, just spray-paint his visor!

As I pointed out a few weeks back, anything capable of cutting and
welding hull metal will make short work of battle dress. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1044
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 8 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1045



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: resource fiction
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: The cost of living in T4
Droyne
Re: resource fiction
Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)
Re: Alien Books
Re: Air Recycling Equipment
Re: Setting discussion
Re: Swords On Ship
Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions
Re: Old MegaTraveller resources
Noises
Future swordfighting - at the pylon's edge
Re: Subject: Heresy
Re: Old MegaTraveller resources
Re: Alien Books and NEW: Milieu release schedule.
Re: Setting discussion
Re: Rumours and Lies?!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:45:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: resource fiction

In mail you write:

>         Well, somebody else already detailed all my literary resource
> fiction, but...
>         I humbly suggest that those of you who can find the copies take a
> look at the Epic-published "Alien Legion" comic series. It is one of the
> more "travelleresque" fiction pieces that I ever read, specially the early 
> ones.
>         Also, back to the literary branch...
>
>         Jack Williamson's "Space Legion".

In the US this is "The Legion of Space" and usually also contains the
short novel "The Cometeers". BTW, I bet Calos would turn pale if he got
a report like this:

	"All they have are a few oddly bent chunks of wire, too flimsy
to pick a lock, I gave them back, and as I lefty one of them was
muttering something about 'AKKA'?"

(all the Jack Williamson fans in earshot *cringe* :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 22:10:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

In mail you write:

>         In fact, I'd argue that shields against gunfire are a bad idea at
> any TL.  Anyone here savvy enough to calculate what the kinetic energy from
> a military rifle round would do to your shield arm?

Well, the round is going to weigh under an ounce. Call it 25 grams.
Muzzle velocity? Call it 1500 m/sec. That gives us a momentum of 37.5
kg m/sec. So, the momentun transfer is equivalent to getting hit by
37.5 kg at 1 m/s. That's *not* going to break your arm, not with it
spread acros the entire forearm. It'll be *less* impact than a good,
solid blow from a mace. 

On the other hand a military round *does* take some stopping. Last time
we went plinking, a friend stupidly fired his SKS at a terget rest only
rated for .22. By sheer luck, he hit a support. The support was mild
steel, 1/8" wide by about an inch thick. The round took out 3/4" of it...
And that wasn't an "armor piercing" round!

Of course, it wouldn't dig a hole that deep in a steel *plate*, but it
does get the point across.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:56:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

In mail you write:

> The use of broadsword and shield in individual combat died out and was
> replaced by rapier and main gauche style combat...right?  Why?
>
> If a sword and shield fighter is so much better than a rapier armed
> fighter, why did the change take place?  Was it the pistol and musket?  Was
> it improvements in metallurgy allowing thin thrusting weapons that would
> stand up to the slashing broadswords?  Was it simply a change in style..it
> became "old fashioned" to tote that big shield around?

Here's the way it was explained to me...

A good fighter with a rapier can beat a good fighter with sword and shield.
A good fighter with an epee can beat a good fighter with a rapier.
But a good fighter with an epee *loses* to a good fighter with sword & shield.

Weapon's "superiority" isn't transitive.

There's supposedly even a historical "proof", involving a French
nobleman who challenged a Scandanavian "noble". The Frenchman brought
his fancy new epee. The Scandanavian brought broadsword & shield. The
Scandanavian lost some blood. They buried the Frenchman. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 00:00:19 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: The cost of living in T4

At 19:26 7/03/1997 -0500, you wrote:
>Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:59:46 -0500
>From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
>Subject: The cost of living in T4

>Obviously, these numbers don't jive.  So, I'm throwing out the numbers I
>found in T4 for cost of living.  I'd like to suggest these ranges.  Please
>comment and suggest/correct them.

>Monthly Costs

>Starvation Level
>  a bare minimum of food   50-150
>  dismal lodging           100-250
>Subsistance Level (I consider myself to be here)
>  reasonable food          150-500
>  acceptable lodging		250-500
>Ordinary Level
>  good food                500-1500
>  good lodging             500-2000
>High Living - 
>  excellant food           1500-4000
>  excellant accomodations  2000-5000

>4000/month on food is about $45/meal.  I'd say that's high living, but
>believeable.

>What say you?

I think the best system was in MT, living costs equalled SOC x Cr250
per month; conspicious consumption, largess, higher quality clothes
food, quarters etc. being required to maintain your SOC level. If you
didn't spend enough on your upkeep, your SOC dropped; or if you spent
enough it went up. This put average living costs between Cr1500 and
Cr 2250 per month.

I also seem to remember a quote from sometime in the late 70's or
early 80's which gave a rough "exchange" rate of 1cr = $0.50 US.

Also bear in mind that the average income for Earth Circa 1990 is
only around US$100 per month (ie average living costs for US and
say Bangladesh are going to a little different).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  "Cross my heart
   Hope to die
   Don't believe in the night
   Its a game that we play
   Each and every day"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 03:26:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Droyne

So has anyone done anything with Droyne since the old CT Alien book?
Any rules, ideas or anything similar that anyone would care to share.

One thing I've always like about Droyne is their wonderful role-play
potential.  Sure, 4 of the Castes (Worker, Warrior, Drone, and Technician)
are hopeless as PC's (always needing a leader around to tell you what to
do would be a bit of a problem), Leaders are still sort of limited and not
good at independent action, but Sports practically have PC written all over
them.  Weasely, renegade, Sport thieves/conmen has been used as NPCs and 
PCs more than once.  How have other folks faired with them?

We really need a book with more cultural info, descriptions of city life, 
what some of the more interesting Droyne worlds are like...

I do have a few rule suggestions.  

1) To adapt Droyne to MT, TNE, or T4 they need an Education score, rolling
all EDU skills vs. INT simply doesn't work for me.  While giving them an
EDU of 1D6 would work this means all the char gen tables must be
redesigned.  Since Droyne are educated throughout their lives we could
simply say that their EDU always equals their INT, since all Droyne are
given training and education commensurate with their level of intelligence
(ie the smart ones are given more education). 

2) For the t4 Aging rules, Drones, Warriors, Workers and Technicians get
+3 (ie worse) to all aging rolls.  They also start aging at 20.  Sports
and leaders age at the same rate as humans. 
   
3) Use the tables listed in the CT Droyne Alien book and simply give the 
little critters 1 skill/year + 1 upon Casting and 1/Distinction (as well 
as the 6 pts in Background and Common skills everyone gets.

So any other thoughts on playing Droyne?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:12:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: resource fiction

In mail you write:

> 3.  The Chanur series and Downbelow Station by C. J. Cherryh.

Also most other books in the Merchanter/Alliance universe. "Merchanter's
Luck" to name just one. Cherryh does good aliens.

> 6.  _Space Cadet_ by RAH.

Excellent source for a pre-jump tech civilization that's spread through
much of it's system. Grab the other "juveniles" and the "Boy Scout" short
stories (look in the Requiem collection, and in "Expanded Universe").

"Between Planets"
	A swampy Venus, with "dragons" as natives. Also good stuff
	about interplanetary travel.
"Red Planet"
	Mars as a "thin" atmosphere planet, natives are tripedal.
"Farmer in the Sky"
	Ganymede as a Terraformed moon of a gas giant, more
	interplanetary Travel. Some side effects of terraforming, and
        an interesting "Ancient" artifact.
"Time for the Stars"
	Non-jump interstellar travel (relativistic), psi used for
	communications.
"Starman Jones"
	New crewman on a small liner.
"Orphans of the sky"
	Lost generation ship.
"Have Spacesuit, Will Travel"
	Fun.
"The Star Beast"
	The perils of bringing home pets from interstellar exploring
	trips. :-)

> 7.  The first Stainless Steel Rat book, by Harry Harrison.

The "Deathworld" books by Harrison.

If you can find a copy, "Battle on Mercury" by Erik van Lhin is a
rather good 1950s sf juvenile set on *Mercury*. This is the pre-flyby
Mercury with one face always to the sun. It details the planet ok, and
has some *different* aliens. So you get a *weird* planet, and weird
natives, all in one book.

Also, "Trouble on Titan" by Alan E Nourse is ok for non-terraformed gas
giant moons. Nice touches like a jet plane that uses O2 as fuel and
burns it with the methane atmosphere.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 11:38:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)

Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)


>> * Bearing to the right-hand side of the road originated as keeping
>> oncoming strangers on your left flank, so as to ward off any attack with
>> your shield.

>One must then wonder how the Brits ended up passing on the left-hand side.

Actually, people on horsback originally bore to the left-hand side of the 
road, so as to be able to draw their swords to meet an attack from 
someone approaching from the other direction.

The reason why in Europe people drive on the right-hand side of the road 
was because Napoleon made it law, so his troops could not be attacked by 
surprise by passers by on the road.

Why they do so in the US? I don't know.

Eamon. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 03:43:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Books

I agree that there should be lots more info about human minor races.  If
you are trying to do a realistic campaign it can be tough play aliens as
aliens and not simply humans-in-funny-suits.  However, not everyone wants
to play an ordinary humans (or folks like Zhodani or Vilani who look
exactly the same as ordinary humans).  However, folks like the Geonee, or
the Suerrat do not look like other humans, they have advantages and
disadvantages that are different from ordinary humans (the Geonee are 1.5
meters tall and from a high G planet, the Suerrat are arboreal and
furry...).

As for aliens, I hope some of the better MT aliens will be kept and
expanded upon, the Brinn are fascinating NPCs.  The Ahetaowa were first
mentioned in Robots as 1-limbed sentient plants and by the time the made
it to Challenge # 56 they were psychic, sessile, Coelenterates which could
both capture prey and photosynthesize.  They, like many of the now-
neglected MT aliens are marvelous, fascinating, and complex (and Ahetaowa
make wonderful patrons), much better than the wretched Hresh (ie the silly
tree-ents-in-space). 

Maybe if we are very lucky many of the (dismal) critters in Alien Archive
will be forgotten and we can get more info on creatures like the Ahetaowa,
the Ormine, the Ulane or some of the fascinating aliens briefly mentioned
in the Challenge 39 Hinterworlds write-up. 

Later-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 01:10:11 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Air Recycling Equipment

At 06:24 8/03/1997 -0500, you wrote:
>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:36:06 -0800 (PST)
>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
>Subject: Re: Air Recycling Equipment

>> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 22:55:43 +0000
>> From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>

>> Dedly@aol.com wrote:
>> > I've got a pc complaining about an apparent backsliding in tech over air
>> > recycling equipment in starships. He spent a couple years on submarine duty
>> > and claims that their CO2 exchangers, etc. work better than the ones in
Trav.
>> > He bases this on the fact that subs can stay underwater longer than
starships
>> > can go between "airing up."

>> One word: MEDIUM

>> (more words, subs can crack O2 from seawater. It is probably unlikely to
crack O2 from 1 
>> hydrogen atom per cubic meter)

>Subs *could* do this, in theory, but I'm unaware of any sub that's ever
>done so in real life.  Subs use CO2-cracking and scrubbing/filtering to
>(re)create breathable air...and a boomer can easily stay submerged, a
>totally closed system, for six months at a time.

I know for a fact that the RN's Trafalger Batch II do and so do the Vanguards,
So I'd say at a guess the later USN Los Angeles do to.


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  "Cross my heart
   Hope to die
   Don't believe in the night
   Its a game that we play
   Each and every day"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:24:52 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Setting discussion

Paul Walker wrote:
> Nope!  The problem (and I get the impression from the Virus flame wars of
> fall 96 that this is common) is that you assume that Virus is just a little
> program sitting out there waiting to trash someone's machine.  That is
> simply not true. Virus is a living sentient organism.  It was viable early
> in the CT setting (based on Survival Margin) and took the form of carefully
> controlled, sub-intelligent Deyo chips in the Transponder of EVERY SHIP
> LEGALLY operating within the Imperium.  Therefore when the semi intelligent
> destroyer Virus was released from Lucan's labs, it had breeding ground in
> EVERY SHIP LEGALLY operating within the Imperium.
- ---Ooh,an AI bug,what twonk is going to do most of the bugs work for
it?Okay,okay,the twonk is an Imperial(degenerate Vilani scum!)Here`s a
question for you-how effective would Virus have been if the Deyo chips
didn`t exist? 

> 
> Maybe not in your home brew universe,                                                 ---Home brew universe.We likes that.Yaskoydray Enterprises,Interstellar Unlimited Company thanks you for that term,the royalties checque for Cr1,000,000 is in the post. 
> Just a couple suggestions before this single message degenerates into yet
> another Virus flame war...
- ---My missive was not intended to start a flame war,I was merely stating
an opinion,as is my God(s) given right.Well that`s my excuse and I`m
sticking to it. 
>        A. NO ONE (period) has the experience to accurately describe what a
> silicon life form will be capeable of.
- ---True,true,no argument there. 
>        B. NO ONE (and I don't care how much experience you have with
> computers) has the experience with TL8 or TL9 (or maybe even 10) computers
> to accurately tell what computers will be like in the TL15/16/17 Imperium.
- ---See point A. 
>        C.  Before you try to make any major assertions about why Virus just
> can't work, do everyone a favor and read the source material.  This includes
> Survival Margin, TNE Main Book, and Vampire Fleets (Regency Sourcebook
> couldn't hurt).  Anyone who has not read at the very least Survival Margin
> and the TNE book has absolutely NO business discussing the validity of Virus.
- ---I own and have read both.I think at the end of the day that you fail
to grasp that there are a lot of people out there who
dislike/hate/loath/despise the Virus era because it destroyed the best
setting we had-CT.My personal problem with TNE was the rules.The setting
was okay,bits of it are being nicked for my own "Home brew" setting,but
the combat rules sucked big time.I get shot in the chest with a plasma
gun,look down at the wound and then in that bit from Pulp Fiction look
up and blow you away with my pistol. Anyone see the flaw in this
description?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:59:25 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

Michael Barry wrote:

>
>Swords on spaceships? Here is a list of useful weapons for shipboard &
>close quarters combat:
>1. Submachinegun
>2. Shotgun
>3. Bayonet
>4. Pistol
>5. Fragmentation grenade
>6. Nail bomb
><I have omitted an unsubtle hint about SCA swordfighting>

	I personally like the idea of automatic shotguns with short
barrels; say a 25-round drum, full-auto with a barrel about 12" long, and
you've got one nasty weapon that probably won't blow holes in the hull, and
due to a minor exploitation of the T4 rules, will do 8 dice to the primary
target when firing full auto.  Of course, it's not much use against
BattleDress, but an unarmoured target will be turned into a big puddle of
strawberry jam...

	Here's an FF&S design I commissioned somebody in my group to do a
while back:


>
>First, the Press Release:
>
>"Sylea, Day 15 Year 00:
>
>We here at Famille Spofulam Armaments are pleased to introduce our KMA-1
>Autoshotgun. Affectionately nicknamed the Meatgrinder by our design
>bureau, the KMA-1 is a simple, short-range, brutally efficient weapon
>designed for anti-piracy defensive use by starship crews, or riot control
>by police forces.
>
>Measuring a short 89 cm overall with the telescoping, shock-absorbing
>stock extended and a compact 70 cm with it folded, the KMA-1 boasts a
>cyclic rate of 300 Imperial Standard 18mm ETC shotgun shells per minute,
>fed from a 22 cm-diameter drum with a 26-round capacity. It may also be
>fired in semi-automatic mode. Its fully loaded weight is 9.25 kilograms.
>The forestock may be supplemented by a removable side or bottom-mounted
>"broomstick" foregrip, to help manage the considerable recoil.
>
>With its 32-cm barrel (a longer-barreled variant is in the final stages of
>testing), the KMA-1 is clearly not effective at long ranges; its optimal
>range is 15 m; beyond that, the relatively low muzzle energies and rapid
>spread of shot due to its short barrel decrease its effectiveness.
>However, given its vocation, this will not often be a consideration.
>
>Manufacturer's suggested retail price is 1650 Cr. Spare drums are 150 Cr."
>
>Second: T4 stats:
>
>Name:
>KMA-1 "Meatgrinder" Autoshotgun
>
>Damage: 4. TL: 12. Range: Very Short. Shots: 26. Mass: 9.25 kg. Price:
>1650 Cr.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 07:02:45 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions

Paul Zumstein wrote:
> 
> Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> >
> >One of my characters is the format Fleet Admiral of the Gram Navy.
> >He came up with a detailed history of his character, based on the
> >character generation process, but embellished it to include political
> >rivals, comrades-in-arms and the like.
> >
> I would be interested in reading some of the background you have, if that is
> possible.
> 

His development stuff is pretty rough right now. He told me he was
going to clean it up into a nice, readable format. I've forwarded
your message to him. When he gets it cleaned up, I'll post it to the
TML, if he agrees to it (which he probably will).

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 07:06:45 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Old MegaTraveller resources

David Smart wrote:
> 
> Brad Vender wrote:
> >
> >   there once being a Windows character generation program, and was
> >   wondering if anyone still had either the program or the source code for
> >   it?
> 
> I still have it. I'll kick you a copy as soon as I can .ZIP it.

Would you please send it to me as well?

Thanks
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 09:32:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Noises

In a message dated 97-03-07 06:08:31 EST, 
Lost Attrib.

><KerWHANNnnnnggggg>
LOL-SIP
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 09:32:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Future swordfighting - at the pylon's edge

>        During the late  Renaissance, it was considered a valid, if somewhat
>risky tactic, to use your left hand to grab your opponent's rapier and trap
>it. 
The defense for this was to grab your opponets rapier and do the same. This
is the basis for the sword exchange in the last act of "Hamlet". Otherwise,
this scene makes no sense.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:16:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Harold D. Hale wrote:
> 
>    I'm afraid I tend to agree with Volker.  In fact I was about to
> suggest a seperate TNE mailing list anyway for those of us who know the
> ending of the movie "Third Imperium", and would like to discuss the
[snip] 
>    Is anyone else interested?  What would be involved in getting this
> done?  I'm not suggesting that people abandon this list, just something
> additional for us heretics.

  I like this idea. Maybe we could rewrite the charter for Xboat...? It
doesn't seem to be used that much these days anyways.


- -- DLH                                      lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 02:08:31 +1100
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Old MegaTraveller resources

At 03:50 8/03/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Brad Vender wrote:
>> 
>> Currently, I'm in the middle of starting up a MegaTraveller campaign,
>>   with the down side that I haven't played or refereed it since back
>>   when TNE was coming out, and I was wondering what was still available
>>   in the way of computerized gaming aids for MT.  Specifically, I remember
>>   there once being a Windows character generation program, and was
>>   wondering if anyone still had either the program or the source code for
>>   it?
>
>I still have it. I'll kick you a copy as soon as I can .ZIP it.
>
>

Would it be possible to send me a copy as well?


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:24:20 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Alien Books and NEW: Milieu release schedule.

(a whole lot of snippage)
Well, there are goodf points and bad points about this proposed 
schedule: 
1. it fits the Millieux rather well so that's a pro!
2. The combinations are appealing (+)
however,
3. the first 4 books would mainly focus those races where there's 
already a lot of material, which could easily be reprinted.(-)
4. Considereing the speed of releases, we won't see the lesser 
developed races (Zhos, Droyne, K'Kree, Hivers) before 2-3 years have 
gone by! (-)  
5. The Vilani aren't a truly Alien race, just a branch of humanity, 
so those newbies that we're trying to pull in might feel cheated if 
they get a human race in an Alien module.
 
- ->         1. VILANI / Geonee  / Newts / Bonus: Answerin 
- ->         2. VARGR  / Suerrat / Hhkar / Bonus: Brinn
- ->         3. ASLAN / Ormine / Darrian / Bonus: Zhodia colonies
- ->         4. SOLOMANI / Vegans / Geneered races/ Bonus: Sworld Worlders
- ->         5. ZHODANI / Vlazhdumecta / Addaxur / Bonus: Roth Thokken
- ->         6. DROYNE / Chirpers / Jigd-Il-Jagd / Bonus: Primordials
- -> 
My fave order would rather be:
2/5/3/6/4/1
This order is dictated by the publication order of the milieux and 
the amount of info already available! 

- ->         Maybe we could reach a consensus and forward it to IG before they
- -> release that Aslan/Vargr book... ;-)
I would very much hope so...  
BTW: Who says that the millieux will be published in historical 
order? If they aren't there could be another schedule for those books 
because of that too! Maybe we should ask IG to push M:1100 or 1000 
directly after M:200. That way, we would see the Zho- Alien Book 
earlier!
I was a bit disappointed that M: 200 got pushed back to next year, 
because i always felt that the great strenght of the Milieu concept 
was CHOICE! The more Milieux there are the more players will have a 
choice of what M: to use! Supplement and adventures could support the 
older M: even if a newer one has already been published!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 02:21:24 +1100
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Setting discussion

At 13:24 8/03/97 +0000, you wrote:
>My personal problem with TNE was the rules.The setting
>was okay,bits of it are being nicked for my own "Home brew" setting,but
>the combat rules sucked big time.I get shot in the chest with a plasma
>gun,look down at the wound and then in that bit from Pulp Fiction look
>up and blow you away with my pistol. Anyone see the flaw in this
>description?

This problem was fixed, and later errata released by GDW beefed up plasma
weapons so that if you were hit, you died, and even better, if you were
standing next to someone who got hit, you got hurt all over.

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:40:17 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Rumours and Lies?!

- -> So the gist of this is, no matter how fast the deluxe edition comes out for
- -> those of us on the TML, it needs to be out there with the general game
- -> buying public almost as fast, and it needs a big sticker on the front
- -> saying "Revised and improved etc", and SOME BLURB ON THE BACK so 
- -> (and oldies!) can get an idea of what it contains (something all 
the T4 -> supplements lack!).
I couldn't agree more! I also felt that, although the pictures on the 
back made the books look good, they didn't give any info on the 
contents. However when trying to get new people, one should say what 
one has to offer so that people see it, and the best place to do this 
is the back cover!

- -> background chapter covering core (M0) or the Marches (M100? 
- -> onwards). Sort of a 'rough guide to the Imperium'. The Imperial 
- -> encyclopedia in MT was very useful for introducing new players 
- -> ("here's your ship's computer's library DB").
A good idea, and one that merits consideration! I didn't even have to 
be extensive info, just maybe 2-4 pages of the most basic background 
info, what the imperium is and how it works. Kind of like "An 
Introduction to Traveller" in the olden days! That would explain lots 
to new players and be of much help to those who don't want to sink 
more money into a new game than absolutely necessary at first (Don't 
worry, we'll get them later ;-) !) 


Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1045
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 8 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1046



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

More on Alien books
Re: Alien Book
Re: Setting discussion
Re: Droyne
Re: Alien Book
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Battle Dress
Adventure plots
Re: Swords On Ship
American driving habits
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Setting discussion
THUDDD Announcement
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1042
Re: [T97#1038] Emergency Herald Needed!
Re: [T97#1039] Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?
Re: [T97#1039] Re: Emergency Herald Needed!
cP003 Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:49:20 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: More on Alien books

One thing i forgot in my earlier post: One should also add new 
aliens, just rehashing the old ones wont do, so IG'd better add one 
minor race per hardbound that is entirely new or not detailed so far 
(known only by name)Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:08:37 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

- -> > SOLOMANI provides information on them, whatever minor branch of humaniti
- -> >         is closest (hasn't been developed much!), the Vegans, and, hm,
- -> >         maybe the triplet of neo-chimps / neo-dolphins, / neo-orcas.
- -> 
- -> VEGANS, VEGANS, VEGANS
- -> We want real rules for Vegans (don't make them some sort of weird cult)
Seconded! Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 17:00:20 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Setting discussion

paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au wrote:
> 
> This problem was fixed, and later errata released by GDW beefed up plasma
> weapons so that if you were hit, you died, and even better, if you were
> standing next to someone who got hit, you got hurt all over.
> 
> Harry
- ---I know it was fixed but "too late,too late shall be the cry".By the
time it was fixed my group had gone back to MT in disgust and wouldn`t
risk TNE again.It was perceived as being flawed and irrepairable.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 12:18:18 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne

>So any other thoughts on playing Droyne?

I had a couple of PC's role play a group of Droyne a few years ago. 
There is one thought about that experience.  Most people seem to view
the Droyne as small, fairly weak Aliens. If I recall, the warriors and
some others can reach about 6-7 feet tall.  Some of the PC's reached
this height, and that can create quite a stir when trying to interact
with humans.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 12:44:26 -0800
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

Actually, one of the races I had in mind when I suggested all this 
leaving out the Aslan was the Ael Yael. 
 
I would love to see this race detailed in a better fashion than just a 
couple of pages in JTAS.  Although I noticed quite a similarity in 
appearance (only) to the Controlled.

Shade

- -- 
"*#%& the censors!!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 12:57:07 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

David Smart wrote:
> Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. From previous posts re: max dice, I took it
> that the higher the max. number of dice a critter took, the *easier*
> it is to blow it away (it's taking more damage).
> 
> A short Chirper with hollow bird bones has much less body mass than a
> K'kree. Because of the inherent weakness in its body structure (as
> opposed to a K'kree), the max dice should be higher than that of a
> K'kree to reflect how much easier it is to take the little sucker.
> 
> At least this appears to be the effect. Am I missing something?

Yes. The "official rule" is that an animal takes a max of 1D per 50 kg
And yes, it is VERY silly

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 13:09:25 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > What do you do to beat someone in BD,A?  Get ahold of a plasma rifle, or a
> > HEAP greande, or wait for him to take his helmet of and drop him with a
> > sniper.  Onboard ship, open all the airlocks and blow him out, crank the
> > grav plates up to 3G, or turn th inertial compensators off and fly an
> > evasion pattern.  Hell, just spray-paint his visor!
> 
> As I pointed out a few weeks back, anything capable of cutting and
> welding hull metal will make short work of battle dress. :-)

BUT you still have to do all this to stop them 
The poor guy in Diplo is going through hell
The argument about paint though is sort of like trying to slip a knife between the plates on 
Maximilian Plate Armour. So who is going to volunteer? Sure it is possible BUT all he has 
to do is swing his weapon. ou have to do a called shot and get really close
And as far as using a blow torch, lessee, range 1m?
Incidentally these same types of agruments were used against troops wearing helmets 
during WWI. They noticed that, after troops started wearing helmets, head injuries 
increased precipitously. Some said look how dangerous those things are! What they initially 
failed to check was the fact that the number of head _deaths_ had dropped by roughly the 
same amount. Same goes for BP vests. injuries to the torso rise. With the weapons of the 
future, armour prevents your very expensively trained soldiers from dying. BD protects 
near 100% against small arms, fragmentation and plasma splash.
Personally, between being shredded by collateral damage and running the risk of being 
attacked by some loony with a blowtorch, I will risk the blowtorch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:38:54 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Adventure plots

I've just re-read the 2300AD Nyotekundu Sourcebook, and realised how easy
it would be to convert the plotline to a Traveller one of any era. It'd
give you a feel somewhere between CT Murder on Arcturus Station/ CT Death
Station and Aliens, depending on how which plot variant you want to use.
The artifacts involved could easily be Primordial, or Ancient.

Recommended, especially as it details a mining mass driver ship in a lot of
detail, along with a world.

Anyone else know any easy supplements to plaigarise?


    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:45:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

   Hi.

   Several people have expressed the opinion that swords are more
   useful than guns for shipboard combat due to the delicate nature of
   starship interiors. I have heard variants of this position taken
   since 1978, way back in "pre-imperial" times.

   But I remain sceptical. If swords are so useful for ship combat in
   Traveller, why don't modern day marines use them (for other than
   ceremonial purposes) on board modern warships? Everything I've read
   about the interiors of Traveller merchant ships leads me to believe
   that they are at least as durable (indeed, even more so) than the
   interiors of modern naval escorts.

   Perhaps one of our resident marines would be kind enough to enlighten
   us as to the (unclassified, of course) theory of modern naval
   shipboard combat. Thanks in advance!

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:57:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: American driving habits

   Hi.

> From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>

> Actually, people on horsback originally bore to the left-hand side of the 
> road, so as to be able to draw their swords to meet an attack from 
> someone approaching from the other direction.

> The reason why in Europe people drive on the right-hand side of the road 
> was because Napoleon made it law, so his troops could not be attacked by 
> surprise by passers by on the road.

> Why they do so in the US? I don't know.

   Because wagoneers sat on the left side of their benches, so they
   could hold the reins in their right hand while they worked the hand
   brake with their left. As they jockeyed around one another on those
   narrow muddy roads, they liked to keep each other on their left sides
   so they could better see the relative positions of their wagons.

   -Rob (way off topic)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 10:49:43 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

I've been following with interest the discussion of Battle Dress' usfulness,
an have decided to add my .02 Cr.

It's a question of tactics.  As someone else pointed out, the true advantage
to BD is the increased information flow coming into the soldier.  Picture
for a momment what the average Marine sees as he moves in his BDA.

He probably has a weapons status screen, telling him how many rounds he has
avalible, wether the safty is activated, and possibly what type of round is
loaded for heavier weapons.  He also may have a locator beacon, which allows
him to tell where his buddies are, even in poor visability conditions.

When fired upon, the radar controlling the point-defence laser will most
likely provide a visual "trail" of the projectile's flight path, making it
easier for the soldier to immediately return fire.  This information would
probably be shared among members of the fire team, so that instantly all
four Marines are aware of the threat, and can execute an Immediate Action
drill for the contact.  If a Marine is hit and wounded, medical sensors will
note the sudden change in the body's vital signs, and dump stabilizing
medication into the blood stream, try to isolate the area where armor was
penetrated, and start screaming for a corpsman on a special reserved radio
frequency.

The squad leader in this senario will be able to monitor the status and
location of all his men, and will be aware of the tactical situation within
seconds.  It even be that he can "look through their eyes" by mean of a
small camera mounted on the helmet.  The Sergeant can then easily call for
additional forces, artillery or ortillery, air support, or manuver his own
squad to defeat the threat.

The important advantage BDA equipped troopers have is the "action cycle" is,
for them, very short.  The improved abilty to process information at all
levels allow for quick and deceisive action in times that leave their
unaugmented brethern still trying to figure out where in the hell the
shooting is coming from.

Battle Dress is the best way to give life to Patton's belief that the job of
the Army is too close with the enemy and destoy him by a combination of
speed, shock, and maneuver.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 97 12:51:34 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

In a message dated 3/7/97 9:53 PM, James Lindsay wrote:

>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."

I think this definition is weak.

>Acknowledging this, EDU cannot be absolute.  The more a character
>learns, the higher his or her EDU should become.

NO!!! I emphatically disagree.

>The problem, of
>course, is that some skills are linked to Education...
>
>If a game system uses skills, the inclusion of an EDU statistic should
>be used simply to cover skills that aren't covered by the game system,
>of for defaulting to skills not posessed by the character.  By very
>definition, characters with high skills should also have high EDU,
>since EDU defines the character's education (ie: the skills and
>knowledge s/he posesses).

I disagree again. Education is *not* equivalent to learned skills. =
Skills are *not* just application of learned knowledge.

To use some real world examples, there are very talented and skilled =
people (carpenters, farmers, taxi drivers, martial artists) living in =
the third world who haven't had a lick of schooling.

And there are well educated people who appear on _Jeopardy_ who =
couldn't even change a tire.

Here's my definition, and the distinction I make between skills and =
education:

A skill is the _practical_ application of *experience* and knowledge. =
You can't just learn a skill by reading a book. Oh, you might get a =
basic understanding, but a prerequisite to aquiring skill-1 is =
actually *trying* to accomplish tasks requiring the skill. Multiple =
times. And ideally under the direction and supervision (or by =
"mimiking") someone with the skill.

Education is not *just* the body of general knowledge absorbed by a =
character, it also encompasses the ability to aquire and retain =
knowledge. This ability can be "trained", just as a body-builder can =
increase strength, a long-distance runner can increase his endurance, =
etc.

I've known very *intelligent* people who seem to be quite na=EFve =
about what to me is common knowledge. I've known smart people who =
have a devil of a time memorizing facts and details. I've also known =
educated people who if given a problem requiring a modicum of =
Intelligence and problem-solving ability, seem to have trouble.

I think the difference between Intelligence, Education, and the =
learned body of skills is distinct.

I don't like the T4 definition, nor the way EDU points are handed out =
willy-nilly just by attending a few years of University. Education =
doesn't go hand-in-hand with just learned material. It's the =
*ability* to learn.

Just MHO of course.



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Glenn Hoppe =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\ /--- =
MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Eschew =
Obfuscation =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 14:17:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

   Hi.

> From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>

   > BUT you still have to do all this to stop them  The poor guy in Diplo
   > is going through hell The argument about paint though is sort of like
   > trying to slip a knife between the plates on  Maximilian Plate
   > Armour. So who is going to volunteer? Sure it is possible BUT all he
   > has  to do is swing his weapon. ou have to do a called shot and get
   > really close And as far as using a blow torch, lessee, range 1m?

   I'm tellen ya, just shoot him with a RAM HEAP grenade. He'll be dead,
   and if you miss, your starship bulkheads will stop the rocket, no
   problem. RAM HEAP grenades cost, if memory serves, about Cr35 each,
   they can be launched from ACR's and gauss rifles, or dedicated rocket
   launchers, which run a few hundred credits. They are available
   legally on law level 1 or 0 worlds. Any goon with Heavy Weapons skill
   will have no trouble shooting one at shipboard (point blank!) ranges.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 13:10:53 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: Setting discussion

>From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>

>- ---Ooh,an AI bug,what twonk is going to do most of the bugs work for
>it?Okay,okay,the twonk is an Imperial(degenerate Vilani scum!)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

>Here`s a
>question for you-how effective would Virus have been if the Deyo chips
>didn`t exist? 

This depends on exactly how Virus reproduces.  My guess is that it would not
have done well.  Yes, this does somewhat debunk the reports in the TNE
material that Other Areas of space were destroyed too, but, I think two
things should be remembered.  1) The TNE books were written from the
perspective of the Reformation Coalition, and to the best of their
knowledge, no one did survive except the Hiver.  The truth could be that no
one who survived wanted to come anywhere near the Imperial sector.  2)
Remember that anyone who travelled in Imperial space (with the possible
exception of invading fleets although a good arguement could be made that
they would have them too) had the Deyo chip Transponder.

All in all, given the facts, I don't find Virus unbelievable. (see below)

>> Maybe not in your home brew universe,
>         ---Home brew universe.We likes that.Yaskoydray Enterprises,
>Interstellar Unlimited Company thanks you for that term,the royalties
checque >for Cr1,000,000 is in the post. 

This is really sad, even Grandfather is getting caught up in the M0
"economics is the driving force" era. :)  Well, at least I can finally put
that downpayment on my Jayhawk.  

>> Just a couple suggestions before this single message degenerates into yet
>> another Virus flame war...
>- ---My missive was not intended to start a flame war,I was merely stating
>an opinion,as is my God(s) given right.Well that`s my excuse and I`m
>sticking to it. 

Right, I understood that, and this comment wasn't intended to go to you, but
to anyone who would choose to join in this thread.  You are welcome to your
opinion, and no one should try to remove that right from you.  I simple was
stating mine and as I said above, it is that I do not find Virus that
unbelievable based on what limited information we know about it.  A weak
analogy could be made to the discovery that the world was round.  No matter
how many or few people lived (and died) thinking it was flat, the fact was
that it was/is/will be round.  No matter how many people (players or
characters) don't like, don't understand, and don't believe Virus, it is
(for the present) here.  And I for one hope it doesn't leave.

>>        C.  Before you try to make any major assertions about why Virus just
>> can't work, do everyone a favor and read the source material.  This includes
>> Survival Margin, TNE Main Book, and Vampire Fleets (Regency Sourcebook
>> couldn't hurt).  Anyone who has not read at the very least Survival Margin
>> and the TNE book has absolutely NO business discussing the validity of Virus.

>- ---I own and have read both.I think at the end of the day that you fail
>to grasp that there are a lot of people out there who
>dislike/hate/loath/despise the Virus era because it destroyed the best
>setting we had-CT.

Well, I do understand, and I can appreciate it because the same thing
happened to me with the Reformation Coalition Setting.  I have mentioned
before that I didn't have the privelege of playing Traveller at all during
CT, and I played only a little MT.  I finally got head over heals (and
really learned what Traveller was) during TNE.  To me, TNE is Traveller,
just as much as to some others, CT (or MT) IS Traveller.  Now, we are not
getting our favorites because we are at M0.  While here, I am running an M0
campaign. :)

>My personal problem with TNE was the rules.The setting
>was okay,bits of it are being nicked for my own "Home brew" setting,but
>the combat rules sucked big time.I get shot in the chest with a plasma
>gun,look down at the wound and then in that bit from Pulp Fiction look
>up and blow you away with my pistol. Anyone see the flaw in this
>description?

Yeah, I wasn't really happy with all the rules, but the problem you
mentioned (and a good many of the others as I recall) were fixed.  See
Harry's comments below...

>From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
>
>This problem was fixed, and later errata released by GDW beefed up plasma
>weapons so that if you were hit, you died, and even better, if you were
>standing next to someone who got hit, you got hurt all over.
>
>Harry


Anyway, My post repsponding to yours is not intended to be a Flame War
ignition switch, Its just that during the last Fame War, MANY MANY people
would give their take on why Virus WOULD NOT work only to announce later
that they didn't read Survival Margin (IMHO the best explanation of Virus
and its origins).  The problem was, as you said, that the nice pleasant
environment of the Imperium was destroyed, and rather than admit that they
were issed off about that, they attacked Virus (with only half knowledge).

your internet Virus representative, 
and local Virus as citizens coordinator,

Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 13:36:41 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: THUDDD Announcement

Greetings fellow THUDDDers.

THUDDD will shortly be in my court, (Roderick says, Finally), and I wanted
to make a few announcements first.

First, continue to send entries to Roderick until Saturday night when he
will get them all together and send them to me.  Once Roderick posts the
entries to the list, please send your votes to me at:

tiger@goldinc.com

Not to Roderick.  That's right, after the entries are in, I will be taking
over the voting for this THUDDD.  I plan (for now) to allow the voting for
two weeks, through the 23 of March, then we will take a week off, and I will
announce the next ship that is to be designed. (I have to work the 15th and
I doubt if I can get to tallying the votes before then).  If you haven't
sent your list of desired ships to me yet, this is the last call for them
(use the subject line "THUDDD overall voting").  Here are the rules for
voting for the regular entries:

1.  Each voting person can vote only once.

2.  No entrant is allowed to vote for his (or her) own entry.

3.  All votes MUST be sent directly to me at:  tiger@goldinc.com
      Any votes sent anywhere else WILL NOT be counted.

4.  All votes MUST get in before the deadline.  Late votes will be discarded.

5.  All votes MUST include the subject line "THUDDD Vote"  If this subject
line is not used, I will try to catch the vote, but if it gets left off, I
will not be held responsible.

6.  Vote for the top three designs in each catagory.  Only vote for three
ships, and use as few comments as possible.  Catagories include:

      Best Overall Design:
      Most Likely to Use in a Game:
      Closest to Design Paramaters:
      Cheapest Efficient Design:  (note, this is not the cheapest design)
      Most Interesting Design:

7.  I will give each ship voted for a 1, 2, or 3 respectively, and every
other ship will get a 4.  When the voting is done, the totals will be
computed and the winner of each catagory will be announced (total USP) and
the runners up (#'s 2-5) will be listed (Ship class/name only).


I think that's it for now.

Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:25:31 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1042

James Garris said:

>>     Location      Superficial  Minor      Major        Critical
>>1    Leg           Fall         Frac       Impd         Amp 1-3p/r
>>2    Hip/Pelvis                 Frac       Intl 1p/r    Artery 2p/r
>>3    Arm           Drop Items   Frac       Impd         Amp 1-3p/r
>>4    Middle Torso               Intl 1p/r  Intl 2p/r    Spine
>>5    Upper Torso                Intl 1p/r  Intl 2p/r    Lung/Spine
>>6    Head/Neck     Stuns 1 rd   Frac/Impd  Conc/Throat  Brain/Spine

>Here's what I don't like about this, Glenn.  The percentage chance for a
>head/neck wound (16.7%) is too high for me.  Can you cut this in half >somehow?

It's only 2.8% higher than it was on my detailed Hit Location Table. Here's
the relevant bit:

16       top of torso                  Throat 1p/r   Spine
15 15    neck                          Throat 1p/r   Spine
14 14    face/jaw        Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Impd     Throat 1p/r
13 13    face/eye        Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Impd     Brain
12 12    cranium/crown   Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Conc     Brain
11 11    cranium/ear     Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Conc     Brain 

I just collapsed all these locations down to "1 = Head/Neck".

I should have pointed out that the Quick Hit Location table is intended
mainly for ranged weapon attacks, and also most melee attacks. The
distribution is weighted towards the chest, and also there's a higher
chance of head hits than you'd get in a random hit distribution.

If the chance of head/neck hits is too high for you, you can always make a
second roll on a table similar to the" relevant bit" quoted above.

But I wanted a quicker, simpler version of Hit Location, and whenever you
simplify you have to accept some loss of realism.

Thanks for the comments,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 15:38:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1038] Emergency Herald Needed!

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote...

T::>[Gosh, more SCA<->Traveller stuff]

T::>If there are any heralds out there within the sound of my voice can you
 ::>write back immediately if you can blazon the Imperial coat of arms. I need
 ::>it for the heraldry section in PE. My best guess was:

T::>Sable, an annulet on a bezant rayony.
 ::>A black field, a black ring on a gold disk rayony.

T::>Anyone with something better?

 I spoke to my other personality (Yosef ben Lazar, Seahorse P.,
 stgardr, East) and asked him.  You're close:

 Sable, on a bezant rayonn, an annulet of the field.

 Alternatively: Sable, on a sun Or, an annulet of the field.

 Alternatively: Sable, a bezant within an annulet rayonn Or.


 Jeff, who isn't a herald, posting for Yosef, who doesn't know
 what a computer is, much less the Internet.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Patience my ass, I'm going to kill something.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 15:38:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1039] Re: [FT Q&A] Playing Traveller Online?

"Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com> writes...

T::>In either case, if you are interested in starting or joining a game,
 ::>please email me your intentions.  I am working with IG to have a page
 ::>of games in progress and a waiting list for players who desire to join
 ::>a game and refs who are beginning a game and looking for players.  I
 ::>think there are alot more of us who would use this medium to play, if
 ::>we had the opportunity.  In my case it is because I work full time and
 ::>have two small children.  FTF opportunities are few and far between.

 This is a good idea.  If you can't get IG to go for it, I'll be
 happy to carry it in Freelance Traveller's InfoCenter.  Even if
 IG _does_ go for it, I'll be happy to mirror the info there.

 I intend to pass your whole post on (and any other good ones as
 well), but...

T::>Do you want me to go into what I feel is necessary to ensure a good
 ::>PBeM game?

 ... I'll answer this one for Jerry Joe: Yes, please do.  That
 will also go into the answer.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Ever notice that the best taglines are MINE?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 15:38:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1039] Re: Emergency Herald Needed!

Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au> wrote...

T::>Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
 ::>>
 ::>> [Gosh, more SCA<->Traveller stuff]
 ::>>
 ::>> If there are any heralds out there within the sound of my voice can you
 ::>> write back immediately if you can blazon the Imperial coat of arms. I need
 ::>> it for the heraldry section in PE. My best guess was:
 ::>>
 ::>> Sable, an annulet on a bezant rayony.
 ::>> A black field, a black ring on a gold disk rayony.
 ::>>
 ::>> Anyone with something better?
 ::>>
 ::>> Jo

T::>I can see it now....


T::>College of Heralds: "Im sorry your Majesty, but we have to bounce it!"

T::>Emperor Cleon: "Why???"

T::>CoH: "You can't stack one charge on top of another, but look, why dont
 ::>you consider....."

 ROTFL!  But, stacking charges is quite all right.  You don't
 run into trouble [IN SCA HERALDRY] until the fourth layer
 (i.e., field, a on b on c), and there is at least one way of
 blazoning it that has everything on a single layer (see my
 other message on this thread).  Besides, other jurisdictions
 may have different rules.

 One of these days I _have_ to finish up my article on Vilani
 jewel-heraldry.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Actual war is a very messy business.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:24:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: cP003 Question

I'm trying to reverse-engineer some of the weapons from the T4 rulebook
into 3G3 (largely so I can then forward-convert them into GURPS).  Greg,
did you design them or did someone on the editorial staff whip them up out
of thin air like the designs in Starships?

What is the projectile diameter for the cP003 standard Imperial sidearm
pistol?  5mm seems to be the common pistol caliber -- is that what's here?
(My weapon ends up being close to .6 than .5 kilos, but I suppose that's
within rounding errors).

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1046
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 8 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1047



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions
Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
The Four Horsepersons of the Apocalypse #2
Prepublication errata
Re: Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's
The Four Horsepersons of the Apocalypse
All things Nasti:  Zho in 1100.
two cents
Emergency Herald Needed!
Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy?
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)
Re: Swords On Ship
Re: resource fiction
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)
Re: Missing CT/MT weapons (was Re: Battledress)
Re: All things Nastiness
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: Swords On Ship
Rumours and Lies?!
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: THUDDD Announcement
Re: Air Recycling Equipment
Re: Droyne

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 14:23:22 -0800 (PST)
From: " Paul  Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: CT:Sword Worlds Political Ambitions

Erwin Fritz wrote
>> I would be interested in reading some of the background you have, if that is
>> possible.
>> 
>
>His development stuff is pretty rough right now. He told me he was
>going to clean it up into a nice, readable format. I've forwarded
>your message to him. When he gets it cleaned up, I'll post it to the
>TML, if he agrees to it (which he probably will).
>

Thank you, I appreciate this very much.

PZ


- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:10:16 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?

> Skill levels in T4 do not have the same "value" as they did in CT.
> They have been de-valued.  Given that, an explanation of each of the
> skills levels is presented below.

I disagree.  The a character in T4 has more skills than a CT 
charcter, but each skill level for each skill is still about the 
same.

I think that CT characters always had too few skills, and the T4 gen 
system fixed that.

But, Medical-3 in CT equals the same amount of skill that Medical-3 
means in T4.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:10:15 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> Here's an even simpler fix:  triple the amount of skills that are awarded
> during character generation.  Now you can eliminate pre-game calculation
> and every skill level is worth 1!

Well, the problem you will have with this fix is the skill level not 
meaning anything problem.

You know, the Pilot-4/Dex-6 vs Pilot-1/Dex-10 problem.

Attrubutes are still much more important than skills under your 
simpler fix, and I'm against that.

This is why you must have some sort of multiplier to use with the 
skill level--to make it more important to the target number.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 15:05:18 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: The Four Horsepersons of the Apocalypse #2

>Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:52:59 -0600 (CST)
>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
> >Lessee, Famine, Plague, Pestilence...what's the fourth one?  Bad Table
> >Manners?
>War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death, if I recall correctly.

No, isn't it War, Famine, Pestilence, and Taxes?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:11:04 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Prepublication errata

>Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:21:08 -0600 (CST)
>From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Subject: Q&A with Tim Brown

>Q.  FF&S and Naval Archetect's Manual are both listed.  I thought they
>were the same products?

>A.  FF&S will be the updated FF&S product.  Naval Archetect's Manual

It's spelled ARCHITECT.  Don't scare off your compulsive perfectionist customers with 
these kinds of errors.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 14:45:09 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's

>Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:40:14 -0700 (MST)
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>

>        There's a lot of misconceptions floating around here. Those old
>broadswords and two handers, etc, are NOT just giant lumps of cold iron! A
>survey, for instance, of the known examples of Viking longswords, averages
>them out to about 3 pounds each, considerably lighter than the cheapo
>replicas you find all over the place. Also, they were well balanced.

Does anyone know how much a katana or dai-katana typically weighs?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:59:30 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: The Four Horsepersons of the Apocalypse

>Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 16:36:45 -0800
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Heretics and the Four Horsemen
>
>Hey!  Here I sit on disability because of cancer, multiple cases of
>pneumonia, shingles, and many other little secondary infections, and YOU
>want to be Pestilence?  I don't think so, healthy-boy!

Have you read To Die in Italbar by Roger Zelazny?  (Read Isle of the Dead first, if 
you want the story to go in chronological order, although each stands perfectly on its 
own.)  To Die in Italbar is one of my favorite Zelazny stories, and concerns ... I guess 
you could say, the goddess of pestilence.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:17:44 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: All things Nasti:  Zho in 1100.

>Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:32:45 -0500 (EST)
>From: CardSharks@aol.com

>In a message dated 97-03-03 09:58:22 EST, you write:

>> I figure the Zhodani in 1100 are starting to run out of natural resources

>Zho in 1100. Long term efforts to keep the (bigger) Imperium out of their
>economic back yard.

Do the Zhodani see their front yard, then, as lying to coreward and spinward?  I'll bet 
that there are societies out there that we don't know anything about.  Are those core 
expeditions cost-effective?  They may not be on a quarterly basis, but I think that the 
oldest political entity in known space plans more than three months at a time.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 15:01:09 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: two cents

>Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:24:55 -0600 (CST)
>From: Don Stark <stark@glacier.nrlssc.navy.mil>

>I would like to comment on the suggestion that all TNE posts be sent
>to the TNE group rather than this one:
>
>Don't let a few vocal individuals scare you off. There are many "lurkers"
>of this group that see all the versions of traveller as being part of
>the same whole, and as such want to see the TNE postings as much as
>the others. I started playing CT back in 1978, and continued until the

I have a similar history, and I feel the same way.  Unless we get so much volume that it 
makes sense to split the lists, let's keep it all in the same list.  On the other hand, 
you can always subscribe to both (as many of us did with xboat and tml).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 15:14:21 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Emergency Herald Needed!

>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:57:40 +0100
>From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com

>if you can blazon the Imperial coat of arms.

>Sable, an annulet on a bezant rayony.
>A black field, a black ring on a gold disk rayony.

In light of our recent discussion of the uselessness of shields, will there still be an 
escutcheon in the 47th century?  Are Imperial arms so heavily influenced by Solomani 
tradition that they'll be in the form of a shield?  What was Vilani heraldry like, and 
will it have an influence here?

What are the arms of Zhunastu? of Sylea? of the Sylean Federation?  How are they 
combined into the Imperial arms, if at all?  Why or why not?

You might want a gold field with a black ring and black disk rayony -- I'm thinking of 
the flag on the cover of Rebellion Sourcebook.  Maybe the colors are only reversed on 
flags and military insignia?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:38:51 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy?

>Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:54:11 +0000
>From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Star Wars
>
>Much of the discussions I have read lately imply that most players are in
>favor of the Imperium and Cleon.  Should we look for or develop some
>materials on those groups who would prefer the Sylean Federation remain a
>federation instead of merrily assuming you can inherit the right to rule?
>
>Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy?

I don't think that you get to be dynastic leader of a star-spanning empire by being a 
nice guy.  Being a good guy probably hurts more than it helps, too.  On the other hand, 
you don't have to be the embodiment of evil like the Emperor or his henchman Darth 
Vader.  Most of us on the list have probably been playing for a long time, and see Cleon 
from the perspective of the 1100s, and from the fringes of the Imperium.  That's plenty 
of time and space to whitewash everything about him.  

During Cleon's lifetime, he certainly did what he could to control information about 
himself to present a noble image on which a long-lasting political entity could be 
based.  This probably included liquidation, intimidation, and marginalization of those 
who still supported the Sylean Federation.  I have yet to read Milieu Zero, but when I 
do I'll start posting my own take on it.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 14:41:25 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)

>Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 23:59:50 +1000
>From: Scott & Isabell <bear.garden@c031.aone.net.au>

>>Consider for a moment what a Marine has to learn in his training.  how to
>
>But modern armies still teach marching drill don't they? Very few armies
>actually march to war in ranks anymore. The sword part could be a traditional thing and 
>most armies like traditions.

Some traditions, I suspect, have purposes beyond merely being traditions.  Training in 
cutlass sets the Marine apart -- in his own mind -- from the other services and from 
civilians.  In that way it builds morale.  As either Loren or Marc pointed out in an 
editorial in JTAS some years ago (I'll get the citation if you want it):  The U.S. army 
still gives bayonet training, and the bayonet hasn't had serious military application 
since WWI.  Nevertheless, the physical and mental training associated with the weapon 
build individual and group morale.  

Is the blade now -- and will it be in the future -- the best tradition to achieve morale 
objectives?  Maybe, or maybe not.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 18:44:24 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

>>Perhaps one of our resident marines would be kind enough to enlighten
   us as to the (unclassified, of course) theory of modern naval
   shipboard combat. Thanks in advance!

   -Rob

Sure Rob.  Having spent 9 years in the military, (4 Navy, 5 Marine) I
have a unique perspective on that question.  In General, the US Navy
doesn=92t have to worry too much about boarders (in fact the last time, I
think, the Navy sent away boarding parties was during WWII to capture
U-505). During my time off the coast of Beirut we did have a series of
drills to practice our repel boarders skills.  The scenario was a series
of small boats and aircraft attacking/landing on the USS Independence at
the same time. Both the Marines and MAA (Masters At Arms, i.e. ships
troops) participated.  One squad of Marines was tasked to be the
Terrorist  (With red shirts and large letters spelling out Terrorist).=20
The weapons of choice for the Marines ended up being the shotgun with
pistols, For the Navy it turned out to be the billy club.  Several
Marines ended up in the hospital, and further drills were canceled.=20
What it did show is that in the very small confines on board ship the
combat tended to be very close, with the troops towards the rear unable
to do anything but watch.

Hope that helps. I do not think that ANY Marine would ever think to use
a sword in combat.  Only for show, and dress. Unless you consiter the
K-BAR a short sword.

Bob=20
Vet of the Regain Bush Era
Grenada, Beirutx2, Persian Gulf, I had enough its time to go!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:00:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: resource fiction

Ah, one more book that has a very Traveller in feel, with lots of
well-done aliens. 

_Retread Shop_ by T. Jackson King


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:08:42 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>In a message dated 3/7/97 9:53 PM, James Lindsay wrote:
>
>>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
>
>I think this definition is weak.
>
>>Acknowledging this, EDU cannot be absolute.  The more a character
>>learns, the higher his or her EDU should become.
>
>NO!!! I emphatically disagree.
[snip]

	Well, *I* think that the UPP, chargen, and task systems are kinda
busted in the area of schooling.  Education gives you skills, not some
undefined "educatedness".  This treatment of education as a stat is poorly
concieved, and IMHO severly broken, as it is a poor mapping of human
capabilities.  Here's an example of why:

	I have 1 year of nursery school, 1 year of kindergarten, 6 years of
grade school, 5 years of high school, 2 years of CEGEP (junior college to
our US friends) and 6.5 years of university education (BA and an BCL and
LLB in progress) under my belt, giving me an EDU of, let's say for
argument's sake, B.

	Thus, were I to somehow acquire a level of, say, Astrogation, my
target number for an average roll would be 13.

	However, aside from a stats course I took in my undergrad, I have
not taken any hard science or mathematics courses since high school; I
studied anthropophagy, sociology, and psychology in CEGEP, anthropophagy in
my BA, and have been studying law for 3.5 years.  This, I submit, has
absolutely diddley/squat to do with astrogation, and should not be factored
into my roll.

	Indeed, my having learned about various social sciences and the law
should only be taken into account when making rolls based on psych, soc,
anthro, or law.  However, my having been to school and learned about them
is already represented on my character sheet in the skills section, so why
should it also be reflected in the stats section and recalculated in the
roll?

	I submit that a better modelling of how education enhances a
person's capabilities is simply to put what the character learns into the
skill side of the sheet, and roll skills based on intelligence (or other
mental stats) plus those education-acquired skills.

	IMHO, StoryTeller models the mental aspects of humans much better;
it has three mental stats called Intelligence, Perception, and Wits (which
measures quick reaction in urgent/high pressure situations), and any of
these can be rolled in conjunction with the skills classified as
"Knowledges", which are acquired via education (they can be rolled with any
other skills too).  So, a Perception+Sensors roll could be required to
notice subtly anomalous readings, an Intelligence+Sensors roll to determine
that they're emanating from a stealthed Zhodani DD, and a Wits+Tactics roll
to determine what to do about it.

	I think that these are a pretty good reflection of how people
think, personally, much more so than T4's INT and EDU stats...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 18:50:16 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)

Eamon Patrick Watters wrote:
> 
> The reason why in Europe people drive on the right-hand side of the road
> was because Napoleon made it law, so his troops could not be attacked by
> surprise by passers by on the road.
> 
> Why they do so in the US? I don't know.

I always thought it originated with the US Cavalry in the 1800s making
it easier for mounted troops to fire carbines from horseback. If a
horse soldier is right-handed, it's much easier to shoot towards his
left side.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:42:18 -0800
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Missing CT/MT weapons (was Re: Battledress)

> If you're playing T4 and missing the weapons detailed in CT and MT, check
out:
> 
>   http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/t4/weapon.htm
> 
> Damage, ranges, the works!
> 
> Enjoy.
> 
>  James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
>  System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
>  jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
>  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

i noticed you haven't tried to convert the PGMP or FGMP yet.... i've been
working on them plus some more armor like the original combat armour
they used to have and sort of style like the storm trooper stuff...


			- Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 16:42:04 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: All things Nastiness

>Antti Lahtinen wrote:
>         All Solomani boidroids were thoughtto be destroyed  

Boidroids?  Are these the kind that are also given to Gentile children,
were made from vegetable foodstuffs (during the metallo-crisis), and were
commonly named after old cowboys?

If so, then these are the same as those that used to be called (wait for it)
Roy, the soy goy toy boidroid. 

Whew.

The only person funnier than me is Cowboy Wally (if you don't know, don't
ask).


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 16:56:12 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

>Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 10:49:43 -0800
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>It's a question of tactics.  As someone else pointed out, the true advantage
>to BD is the increased information flow coming into the soldier.  Picture
>for a momment what the average Marine sees as he moves in his BDA.

[deletion]

>The squad leader in this senario will be able to monitor the status and
>location of all his men, and will be aware of the tactical situation within
>seconds.  It even be that he can "look through their eyes" by mean of a
>small camera mounted on the helmet.  The Sergeant can then easily call for
>additional forces, artillery or ortillery, air support, or manuver his own
>squad to defeat the threat.
>
>The important advantage BDA equipped troopers have is the "action cycle" is,
>for them, very short.  The improved abilty to process information at all
>levels allow for quick and deceisive action in times that leave their
>unaugmented brethern still trying to figure out where in the hell the
>shooting is coming from.

This could be well illustrated in a wargame (like Striker, maybe).  Normally, in a 
two-player game, each player knows almost everything about the location of his and his 
opponent's units, as well as their status (in this context -- small unit 
actions -- remaining ammunition, fatigue, morale, wounds, mobility, etc.).  Most games 
try to recreate the fog of war by hiding this information to some extent (dummy 
counters, e.g.).  We could enhance this effect to reflect the real advantage of BD by 
revising the communications rules in Striker.  For example, as to every BD-equipped 
unit, the player knows everything -- actual location, all units in line of sight, 
status, etc.  As to non-BD units, the player knows only what is reported by 
communications every turn during a communications phase -- and that communication would 
have to go via a chain of command, turn by turn:

Turn One:
Non-BD private is hit.  He yells for help.
BD private is hit.  His BD calls for help.

Turn Two:
Non-BD corporal (fire team leader) radios to squad or platoon for help.
BD ambulance moves to pick up BD private.

Turn Three:
Non-BD platoon leader directs ambulance to pick up private.
BD ambulance picks up BD private.

Turn Four:
Non-BD ambulance moves to pick up private.
BD private is in transit to aid station.

Etc.  This needs some playtesting, but the effects of almost immediate ortillery versus 
ortillery delayed several turns should be devastating.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 16:44:11 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

>Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:45:15 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>

I've never been in the military, but I'll take a stab at some issues raised here:

>   Several people have expressed the opinion that swords are more
>   useful than guns for shipboard combat due to the delicate nature of
>   starship interiors. I have heard variants of this position taken[deletion]
>   But I remain sceptical. If swords are so useful for ship combat in
>   Traveller, why don't modern day marines use them (for other than
>   ceremonial purposes) on board modern warships? Everything I've read
>   about the interiors of Traveller merchant ships leads me to believe
>   that they are at least as durable (indeed, even more so) than the
>   interiors of modern naval escorts.

I think that in general we're just talking about the bridge and engineering when we're 
considering collateral damage in shipboard combat.  The bulkheads hold up fairly well 
(we have breaching rules in Snapshot, I think, and elsewhere), and who cares if your 
internal spaces have a few holes?  The bridge and engineering department have 
instruments, notably computers, sensors, and regulatory equipment, that can be easily 
destroyed or at least damaged by small arms fire, and even more so by explosives and 
energy weapons.  This is true on ships today, I would think.  You shoot the sonar panel 
on a submarine, and you're blind until it's fixed --

and that's why we start worrying about collateral damage more in starship combat than on 
the high seas of the 20th Century CE.  If you're in jumpspace and weapons fire damages 
the controls of the jump grid, you're dead.  No one can save you.  Even if you're in a 
star system, you may be a week (i.e., a micro-jump) from rescue -- and you may not be in 
a star system with any rescue capability, anyway.

These are issues to consider when you're trying to capture a ship.  Let's consider the 
contexts of ship capture:  You've either blasted a ship in space combat so that it has 
neither maneuver nor weapons and are putting on a prize crew (following High Guard 
rules, e.g.), or you're hijacking it (or running a mutiny).

The prize crew -- whether pirates or marines -- wants to avoid further internal damage 
if you can, but only to preserve the value of what you've captured.  You probably have 
support craft nearby to take you off if you can't do enough repairs to take the prize 
home.  Defenders here probably don't mind any more collateral damage -- they're trying 
to make the capture as expensive as possible for the enemy.  Pirates may just be going 
after the cargo, and won't worry about damage to the ship's controls.  This scenario 
generally occurs in a star system -- at a gas giant, a main world, or in between.  If 
the world has rescue capability, damage to the ship is of less concern.

If you're a hijacker, you definitely want to avoid (or at least minimize) collateral 
damage.  Your own survival depends on the survival of the ship and its systems -- 
leaving aside your profit motive for the moment.  Hijack attempts may take place after 
jump, or during gas giant refuelling, or in orbit around a low-tech world, when no local 
vessels can come to the rescue.  In each of these cases, the hijackers want to conclude 
the hijack with a ship that they can use with a minimum of field repairs.  

If you're defending a hijack, you're in the same boat as the hijackers -- loss of your 
computer or life support can kill you (and your passengers, depending on the type of 
ship).  

Mutineers face the same issues as hijackers.  

I would be interested in the official view.  I wonder if the various marines of the 
world publish this kind of doctrine on web pages yet?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 15:29:16 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Rumours and Lies?!

>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:24:05 +0000
>From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
>Subject: Rumours and Lies?!
>
>So the gist of this is, no matter how fast the deluxe edition comes out for
>those of us on the TML, it needs to be out there with the general game
>buying public almost as fast, and it needs a big sticker on the front
>saying "Revised and improved etc", and SOME BLURB ON THE BACK so newbies
>(and oldies!) can get an idea of what it contains (something all the T4
>supplements lack!).

Yes, where are those BLURBS?  Don't blurbs sell the books -- especially books without 
chainmail bikinis?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 16:05:45 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

>Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:53:23 GMT
>From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)

>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."

That can't be right.  Education level is the amount of schooling that sticks.  Look, 
e.g., at the rules for college and the academies.  You have to roll for an increase in 
education, even though you did all four years.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:43:05 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Announcement

Paul wrote:

>
>Greetings fellow THUDDDers.
>
>THUDDD will shortly be in my court, (Roderick says, Finally), and I wanted
>to make a few announcements first.
>
>First, continue to send entries to Roderick until Saturday night when he
>will get them all together and send them to me.  Once Roderick posts the
>entries to the list, please send your votes to me at:

[snip]

	Yup...  basically, I just won't have the spare time this weekend
and early next week, not to mention the rest of term, to devote to the
THUDDD, so it's Paul's baby now.  All of you do as he says.  Continue
sending designs to me until Saturday at midnight more or less, and I will
forwarding them to Paul (as I already have done for the ones submitted to
date).  Send your completed  ballots to him at <tiger@goldinc.com>.

	Please note that he's changed the rating system somewhat somewhat.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 16:59:04 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Air Recycling Equipment

At 11:36 PM 3/7/97 -0800, Craig Berry wrote:
>Subs *could* do this, in theory, but I'm unaware of any sub that's ever
>done so in real life.  Subs use CO2-cracking and scrubbing/filtering to
>(re)create breathable air...and a boomer can easily stay submerged, a
>totally closed system, for six months at a time.

Any idea what they do with their mechanical, industrial, and (especially)
biological waste?  Do they recycle their waste water?  Six months as a
closed system is a _long_ time (and isn't the record something like two
years?).

As for Traveller, I'd be willing to bet that some combination of the
computers, jump drives, and power plant consume a small but important
amount of oxygen (consume as in not give it back in the form of any
oxidized compound), OR put out something like excess nitrogen or excess
ozone that isn't easily crackable with commercial filters, thus reducing
the effectiveness of scrubbers.  This consumption or production is probably
just accepted and ignored by ship designers since it's been that way
forever, and since airing out isn't generally that big of a deal.  Probably
you could by better scrubbers, but the cost and maintenance doubles for
each additional, say, 10% increase in efficiency.  

Hand-waving mode off. :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 19:24:12 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Droyne

Bob Sanders wrote:
> 
> >So any other thoughts on playing Droyne?
> 
> I had a couple of PC's role play a group of Droyne a few years ago.
> There is one thought about that experience.  Most people seem to view
> the Droyne as small, fairly weak Aliens. If I recall, the warriors and
> some others can reach about 6-7 feet tall.  Some of the PC's reached
> this height, and that can create quite a stir when trying to interact
> with humans.

Yep, combine their size with their Psi abilities and you've one
incredibly *mean* warrior. One of the TNE supplements actually had
a raid on a Virus-laden computer onboard an crashed Droyne warship.
Aside from providing the only deckplan ever published for a Droyne
ship (AFAIK), it provided a few details into how Droyne actually
work in combat. Unfortunately, the adventure didn't go far enough
in taking into account their Telepathy ability to provide an
undetecable/unjammable taccom system.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1047
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 8 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1048



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Swords On Ship
Re: Adventure plots
High Guard to T4
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 20:31:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

   Hi.

> From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>

> >>Perhaps one of our resident marines would be kind enough to enlighten
>    us as to the (unclassified, of course) theory of modern naval
>    shipboard combat. Thanks in advance!

> Sure Rob.  Having spent 9 years in the military, (4 Navy, 5 Marine) I
> have a unique perspective on that question.  In General, the US Navy
   [snip]
> The weapons of choice for the Marines ended up being the shotgun with
> pistols, For the Navy it turned out to be the billy club.  Several
   [snip again]

   Thanks for a /very/ informative post!

   So, the sailors liked billies, eh?  Interesting...  That should give
   the cutlass fans among us some fuel for their fires.  I'm both
   surprised and intrigued.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 19:35:16 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure plots

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> I've just re-read the 2300AD Nyotekundu Sourcebook, and realised how easy
> it would be to convert the plotline to a Traveller one of any era. It'd
> give you a feel somewhere between CT Murder on Arcturus Station/ CT Death
> Station and Aliens, depending on how which plot variant you want to use.
> The artifacts involved could easily be Primordial, or Ancient.
> 
> Recommended, especially as it details a mining mass driver ship in a lot of
> detail, along with a world.
> 
> Anyone else know any easy supplements to plaigarise?

Another great 2300AD adventure is "Rotten to the Core". It, of course,
deals with cybertech and netrunning but not overwhelmingly so. It could
be run on most relatively hi-tech worlds.

For that matter, use the external views of ships from "Ships of the
French Arm" and redesign their capabilities to fit T4. For anyone
running TNE, look to the Space Opera starship supplements for
quick-and-dirty designs. And I absolutely *love* some of the vehicle
external views from Battletech.

Don't pass on *any* sci-fi/futuristic military RPG supplements w/o
looking thru them for usable material/illustrations. Good places to
look are discount/half-price book stores.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 20:39:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: High Guard to T4

  Hi.

  Well, here is my second draft on converting High Guard ships to a T4
  universal ship profile. This features new rules for nuclear dampers
  (severely broken in the previous rules) as well as rules for meson
  screens and repulsors. There is also some discussion of the armor
  conversion rules, with more alternative systems proposed.

  
  ---     ---     ---     ---     ---     ---     ---
  
  Converting from High Guard USP's to the new USP's in Marc Miller's
  Traveller.
  
TONS    ---
  
  The T4 tonnage is the same as the HG tonnage. Take the Tonnage USP
  value directly from the HG USP.
  
  For the hull type, use the following table to go from the HG
  configuration USP to the T4 USP:
  
  HG USP          T4 USP
  ------          ------
  1               Needle/AF
  2               Wedge/AF
  3               Cylinder/SL
  4               Box/SL
  5               Shere/SL
  6               Dome/SL
  7               Close Structure/No SL
  8               Planetoid/No SL
  9               Planetoid/No SL
  
VOLUME  ---
  
  Volume is equal to tonnage times 14. V = 14 * T.
  
COST IN MCR     ---
  
  Same for T4 as in HG.
  
CREW    ---
  
  Same for T4 as in HG.
  
PASSENGERS HIGH/MEDIUM  ---
  
  Same for T4 as in HG.
  
PASSENGERS LOW  ---
  
  Same for T4 as in HG.
  
CARGO   ---
  
  Should be listed in tons; same for T4 as in HG.  If you list it in
  cubic meters instead, then multiply the HG USP for cargo by 14 to get
  the T4 USP.
  
CONTROLS        ---
  
  For starships, Mil Std/Bridge. For small craft, Mil Std or Mil
  Std/Bridge if you include a small craft bridge. If the HG computer USP
  is A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H or J, then add "/fib" to the T4 USP.
  
TECH LEVEL      ---
  
  Same for T4 as in HG.
  
SIZE RATING     ---
  
  Use the table below to convert from the HG USP size rating to the T4
  USP:
  
  HG size USP     T4 size USP
  -----------     -----------
  0               7
  1-9             8
  A-J             9
  K-Q             10
  Q-X             11
  Y               12
  
JUMP RATING     ---
  
  Same for T4 as in HG.
  
G RATING THRUSTER PLATES
  
  Same for T4 as in HG.
  
POWER PLANT RATING
  
  Same for T4 as in HG. To get the power plant rating in MW, multiply
  the power-plant USP by the ship's tonnage, and multiply that by 2.5.
  Power in MW = 2.5 * Tonnage * PP.
  
FIRE CONTROL RATING and SENSOR RATINGS
  
  I suggest getting these from the HG "computer" USP using the following
  table:
  
  HG computer USP T4 fire control USP     T4 Sensor USP's
                                           A       P       J
  --------------- ------------------      ---     ---     ---
  0               0                       0       0       0
  1               1                       2       2       2
  2               2                       4       4       4
  3               3                       6       6       6
  4               4                       8       8       8
  5               5                       10      10      10
  6               6                       12      12      12
  7               7                       14      14      14
  8               8                       16      16      16
  9               9                       18      18      18
  A               1                       2       2       4
  B               2                       4       4       8
  C               3                       6       6       12
  D               4                       8       8       16
  E               5                       10      10      20
  F               6                       12      12      24
  G               7                       14      14      28
  H               8                       16      16      32
  J               9                       18      18      36
  R               1                       2       4       2
  S               2                       4       8       4
    
STRUCTURE ---
  
  Get the T4 structure USP from the HG tonnage using the following
  table:
  
  HG tonnage      T4 structure USP
  -- -------      -- --------- ---
  0+              0
  3+              1
  7+              2
  13+             3
  20+             4
  27+             5
  33+             6
  42+             7
  50+             8
  67+             9
  83+             10
  125+            11
  167+            12
  208+            13
  250+            14
  292+            15
  333+            16
  417+            17
  500+            18
  583+            19
  667+            20
  750+            21
  833+            22
  1,000+          23
  1,167+          24
  1,333+          25
  1,500+          26
  1,667+          27
  1,833+          28
  2,167+          29
  2,500+          30
  2,833+          31
  3,167+          32
  3,500+          33
  3,833+          34
  4,500+          35
  5,167+          36
  5,833+          37
  6,500+          38
  7,167+          39
  7,833+          40
  9,167+          41
  10,500+         42
  11,833+         43
  13,167+         44
  14,500+         45
  15,833+         46
  18,500+         47
  21,167+         48
  23,833+         49
  26,500+         50
  29,167+         51
  31,833+         52
  37,167+         53
  42,500+         54
  47,833+         55
  53,167+         56
  58,500+         57
  63,833+         58
  74,500+         59
  85,167+         60
  95,833+         61
  106,500+        62
  117,167+        63
  127,833+        64
  149,167+        65
  170,500+        66
  191,833+        67
  213,167+        68
  234,500+        69
  255,833+        70
  298,500+        71
  341,167+        72
  383,833+        73
  426,500+        74
  469,167+        75
  511,833+        76
  597,167+        77
  682,500+        78
  767,833+        79
  853,167+        80
  938,500+        81
  
LASER BATTERIES ---
  
  Use the table below to convert from HG laser-battery USP's to T4
  laser-battery USP's. Two T4 laser-battery USP's are given, one for
  beam lasers and another for pulse lasers.
  
  HG USP  Pulse Lasers    Beam Lasers
  ------  ------------    -----------
  1       2-1-0-0         1-1-1-1
  2       3-1-0-0         2-2-2-2
  3       4-2-1-0         3-3-3-3
  4       5-2-1-0         4-4-4-4
  5       6-3-1-0         5-5-5-5
  6       7-3-1-0         6-6-6-6
  7       8-4-2-1         7-7-7-7
  8       9=4=2=1         8-8-8-8
  9       10-5-2-1        9-9-9-9
  
PLASMA and FUSION GUN BATTERIES ---
  
  Use the table below to convert HG plasma or fusion gun batteries to T4
  battery USP's:
  
  HG USP  T4 USP
  ------  ------
  1       3-0-0-0
  2       4-0-0-0
  3       5-0-0-0
  4       6-0-0-0
  5       7-0-0-0
  6       8-0-0-0
  7       9-0-0-0
  8       10-0-0-0
  9       11-0-0-0
  
MESON GUNS and PARTICLE ACCELLERATORS   ---
  
  Use the table below to convert HG USP's to the T4 battery USP's for
  meson guns and particle accelerators. These conversions were made by
  using the relationship between the HG size USP's, which are linked to
  weapon USP's, and the the T4 structure points.
  
  HG USP  Meson Gun       Particle Accelerator
  ------  ---------       --------------------
  1       1-0-0-0         1-1-1-1
  2       2-0-0-0         2-2-2-2
  3       3-1-0-0         3-3-3-3
  4       4-2-0-0         4-4-4-4
  5       5-3-1-0         5-5-5-5
  6       6-4-2-0         6-6-6-6
  7       7-5-3-1         7-7-7-7
  8       8-6-4-2         8-8-8-8
  9       9-7-5-3         9-9-9-9
  A       13-10-7-5       13-13-13-13
  B       19-16-13-10     19-19-19-19
  C       24-21-18-15     24-24-24-24
  D       25-22-19-16     25-25-25-25
  E       26-23-20-17     26-26-26-26
  F       28-25-22-19     28-28-28-28
  G       29-26-23-20     29-29-29-29
  H       29-27-24-21     29-29-29-29
  J       31-28-25-22     31-31-31-31
  K       32-29-26-23     32-32-32-32
  L       38-35-32-29     38-38-38-38
  M       42-38-34-30     42-42-42-42
  N       44-40-36-32     44-44-44-44
  P       46-42-38-34     46-46-46-46
  Q       50-45-40-35     50-50-50-50
  R       52-47-42-37     52-52-52-52
  S       58-52-46-40     58-58-58-58
  T       62-56-50-44     62-62-62-62
  
SANDCASTER BATTERIES    ---
  
  Use the table below to convert from the HG USP to the T4 USP. The T4
  USP is given for 3 tech levels.
  
  HG USP  TL-7    TL-8    TL-10
  -- ---  -- -    -- -    -- --
  0       0       0       0
  1       1       -       -
  2       3       1       -
  3       6       3       1
  4       8       6       3
  5       10      8       6
  6       20      10      8
  7       30      20      10
  8       -       30      20
  9       -       -       30
  
MISSILE BATTERIES       ---
  
  Use the table below to get the number of missiles that can be
  controlled in flight by a battery at any one time from the HG USP
  factor. Two columns are given for 2 different tech levels.
  
  HG USP  TL-7    TL-13
  -- ---  -- -    -- --
  0       0       0
  1       1       -
  2       3       1
  3       6       3
  4       12      6
  5       18      12
  6       30      18
  7       60      30
  8       120     60
  9       180     120
  
FORCE FIELDS    ---
  
  The flicker rate of the black globe is equal to the HG force-field USP
  time 10%.
  
NUCLEAR DAMPERS ---
  
  The nuclear damping screens reduce each nuclear missile salvo by the
  following amount:

  HG USP  T4 USP    
  -- ---  -- ---       
  0       0
  1       1
  2       3
  3       6
  4       12
  5       18
  6       30
  7       60
  8       120
  9       180

REPULSOR BATTERIES      ---

  Each repulsor battery reduces one missile salvo by the following
  amount:
  
  HG USP  T4 USP    
  -- ---  -- ---       
  1       30
  2       60
  3       120
  4       180
  5       300
  6       600
  7       1200
  8       1800
  9       3000

MESON SCREENS   ---
  
  HG USP   T4 USP
  -- ---   -- ---
  1        9
  2        13
  3        19
  4        24
  5        25
  6        26
  7        28
  8        29
  9        30

ARMOR   ---
  
  I show below three schemes for converting HG armor values to those
  of T4. Scheme 'A' is my recommended, simple, arbitrary scheme. It's
  biggest weakness is that it can lead to abusively powerful small
  craft designs. It works well for small ships with small armor values,
  big ships with high armor values, and medium sized ships with medium
  sized armor values.

  Scheme 'B' is my interpolation of an "official" (but
  nonsensical) conversion detailed in Striker, which relates HG armor
  values to a single hull thickness. It works well for ships in the range
  of 500 - 2000 tons. 

  Scheme 'C' is based on Wildstar's take on the 
  official conversion, which he explained here 6 months ago; here I did 
  not interpolate between the points. It works well for ships around 
  100,000 displacement tons.

  
  HG USP  A        B      C   
  -- ---  -        -      _
  0       0        17     10
  1       10       23     70
  2       20       26     80
  3       30       30     90
  4       40       34     100
  5       50       38     100
  6       60       44     110
  7       70       47     110
  8       80       50     110
  9       90       54     110
  10      100      58     120
  11      110      61     120
  12      120      65     130
  13      130      69     130
  14      140      74     140
  15      150      79     140
  16      160      82     150
  17      170      85     150
  18      180      88     160
  19      190      92     160
  20      200      95     170
  21      210      99     170
  
  Below is a scheme based on equalizing the displacement of
  the armor in both HG and T4. It is the most "realistic" scheme (as
  if "realistic" meant anything in this context) since it is based
  on physical and geometrical principles. Unfortunately, the
  equation giving the relation between the HG and T4 USP's is a real
  monster. Here it is for HG armor factors equal to 15 or less:

      T4 = 4.7*(M*14*1000000/3.14*3/4)^(1/3)/3*(HG+1)/100

  where 'M' is the ship's displacement in tons, 'HG' is the High Guard
  armor USP rating. 'T4' is the armor rated as centimeter's thickness of
  hard steel. After using this equation, take 'T4' and go to the USD
  table in the back of "Starships", look up the USD value, and then
  multiply that value by 10. (And people wonder why I find the new
  ship-design rules so complicated!)

  Obviously, the above formulation is not amenable to a simple
  look-up table, but I did my best.

  To use the lookup table below, find the column for the hull
  tonnage closest to your ship's tonnage. Go down the column till
  you match your ship's HG armor rating (in the leftmost column).
  The number that you are referencing is the T4 armor value.

                                Hull Tonnages
                  10      100     1,000   10,000  100,000 million
  HG USP          ********************T4 USP*********************
  -- ---          -----------------------------------------------
  0               0       0       0       0       0       0
  1               0       10      20      30      60      90
  2               0       10      20      40      80      100
  3               10      20      30      60      90      110
  4               10      20      30      70      100     120
  5               10      20      40      80      100     130
  6               10      20      50      80      110     140
  7               20      30      50      90      110     150
  8               20      30      60      90      110     160
  9               20      30      60      100     120     160
  10              20      30      70      100     120     170
  11              20      40      70      100     130     170
  12              20      40      80      100     130     180
  13              20      40      80      100     140     180
  14              20      50      80      110     140     190
  15              30      50      80      110     140     190
  16              40      80      100     140     180     240
  17              50      80      100     140     180     240
  18              50      80      110     140     190     240
  19              50      80      110     140     190     240
  20              50      80      110     150     190     250
  21              50      80      110     150     190     250
  
  Of all these HG to T4 armor conversions, I recommend scheme 'A',
  above. It is the simplest, and it works fairly well for most
  ships; it's good enough for government work, and better than
  good enough for games.

  -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 97 20:11:12 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

In a message dated 3/8/97 10:10 AM, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

>> Here's an even simpler fix:  triple the amount of skills that are awarded
>> during character generation.  Now you can eliminate pre-game calculation
>> and every skill level is worth 1!
>
>Well, the problem you will have with this fix is the skill level not 
>meaning anything problem.
>
>You know, the Pilot-4/Dex-6 vs Pilot-1/Dex-10 problem.
>
>Attrubutes are still much more important than skills under your 
>simpler fix, and I'm against that.
>
>This is why you must have some sort of multiplier to use with the 
>skill level--to make it more important to the target number.

Ken, I don't see the difference... The value of each skill level is 
reduced by a third using his fix. So your Pilot-4/Dex-6 vs Pilot-1/Dex-10 
would become Pilot-1.3333/Dex-6 vs Pilot-0.33333/Dex-10. :-) Basically, 
he's redefining the value of skills: Beginner is Pilot-3, Professional is 
Pilot-9, Expert is Pilot-18...

Multiply the value by 3, or take 3x as many skill levels, and the result 
is the same. *IF* the extra skill levels are *not* used to raise 
attributes.

I do think the "simpler fix" *won't* work well for another reason: One 
could take level-1 in a whackload of skills and avoid an unskilled 
penalty in too many areas.

Which brings me to another point I've been meaning to ask: How does 
KBv2.0 handle unskilled task rolls?

Though I haven't done the analysis, it seems to me quite a steep curve to 
divide the attribute by 2, since the die progression starts at 2D and 
ends at 7D.

Shoot, I don't expect unskilled characters to have the proverbial 
snowballs hope at Impossible levels (7D) but geez louise, I'd need an 
attribute of 10 to even have a chance at a Difficult task!

One Idea: Make target roll straight Attribute (as with Skill-0) but 
increase the chance of Spectacular Failure.

I think if I attempted a task that I had no familiarity in, my chances to 
really foul things up should be higher, n'est-ce pas?

So, forex, if SF is 3 sixes, make it 2 sixes for the unskilled.

Hey, maybe JOT won't be as bad! Sure JOT can be applied to the roll 
(without multiplying by three) but the chance of SF will remain as 
unskilled...

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 02:11:23 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

On Sat, 8 Mar 97 12:51:34 -0600, you wrote:

> In a message dated 3/7/97 9:53 PM, James Lindsay wrote:
>=20
> >T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
>=20
> I think this definition is weak.

Their definition, not mine.  The much of my reply was based on this
definition :)

> >Acknowledging this, EDU cannot be absolute.  The more a character
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >learns, the higher his or her EDU should become.
>=20
> NO!!! I emphatically disagree.

According to diction, Education is "a development of knowledge, skill,
ability, or character by teaching, training, study, or experience."
In RPGs, however, a stat such as "Wisdom" or "Education" is often
introduced to cover all of the countless "skills" (including various
areas of knowledge) that are frequently excluded from a roleplaying
system to keep things simple (nobody want's a tome the size of a phone
book dedicated to skills & knowledge :)

> >The problem, of
> >course, is that some skills are linked to Education...
> >
> >If a game system uses skills, the inclusion of an EDU statistic should
> >be used simply to cover skills that aren't covered by the game system,
> >or for defaulting to skills not posessed by the character.  By very
> >definition, characters with high skills should also have high EDU,
> >since EDU defines the character's education (ie: the skills and
> >knowledge s/he posesses).
>
> I disagree again. Education is *not* equivalent to learned skills.
> Skills are *not* just application of learned knowledge. To use some
> real world examples, there are very talented and skilled people
> (carpenters, farmers, taxi drivers, martial artists) living in the
> third world who haven't had a lick of schooling.

Sure they have.  It might not involve a brick schoolhouse or someone
with a teaching degree, but it is a form of "schooling", nonetheless.
It is a rare individual, indeed, that becomes a skilled carpenter or
farmer without being instructed by or exposed to *someone* or
*something* that already possesses such knowledge.

> And there are well educated people who appear on _Jeopardy_ who
> couldn't even change a tire.

There's a big difference between those that do not know how to change
a tire and people that can't (physically not strong enough) or won't
(pompous individuals above such menial tasks).

The concept of changing a tire (raise vehicle up, remove fasteners, re
& re wheel, replace fasteners, lower vehicle) isn't at all difficult
for most of the population to conceptualize when confronted with a
flat tire.  Yet it is still knowledge that could translate into a
Traveller skill rating.  RPGs simplify this by lumping such "skills"
into the character's EDU stat.  This is how I would handle the EDU
stat in a RPG; not as a bonus to specific "skills", but as a form of
"Jack of all Trades".
=20
> Here's my definition, and the distinction I make between skills and
> education:
>=20
> A skill is the _practical_ application of *experience* and knowledge.
> You can't just learn a skill by reading a book. Oh, you might get a
> basic understanding, but a prerequisite to aquiring skill-1 is
> actually *trying* to accomplish tasks requiring the skill. Multiple
> times. And ideally under the direction and supervision (or by
> "mimiking") someone with the skill.

The acquisition of "skills" in Traveller has always assumed both
theory _and_ practical experience.  I hope you are not saying that
someone with Medical-3 possesses no real (theoretical only) knowledge
of medicine save for what their EDU rating represents !?!

> Education is not *just* the body of general knowledge absorbed by a
> character, it also encompasses the ability to aquire and retain
> knowledge. This ability can be "trained", just as a body-builder can
> increase strength, a long-distance runner can increase his endurance,
> etc.

I wholeheartedly agree!  But by insisting that a RPG have both INT &
EDU stats, as well as a host of "skills", can disbalance things.  By
including an EDU stat to represent a character's "ability to learn",
one might ask, "Where are the statistics for Endurance, Agility,
Speed, Perception, Charisma, Willpower, etc.?"

> I've known very *intelligent* people who seem to be quite na=EFve about
> what to me is common knowledge. I've known smart people who have a
> devil of a time memorizing facts and details. I've also known
> educated people who if given a problem requiring a modicum of
> Intelligence and problem-solving ability, seem to have trouble.

True.  But if you examine Real Life(tm) closely, every bit of
knowledge that we possess or could possess could be defined as its own
"skill" with its own rating.  There would be no Education Rating as
such (except as you define as "the ability to learn and retain
knowledge").

> I think the difference between Intelligence, Education, and the
> learned body of skills is distinct.

I again agree.  But only as their definitions might specifically apply
to Real Life(tm).  In a roleplaying game, the breakdown of a
character's intellect into three different areas isn't really
necessary... IMHO.

> I don't like the T4 definition, nor the way EDU points are handed out
> willy-nilly just by attending a few years of University. Education
> doesn't go hand-in-hand with just learned material. It's the
> *ability* to learn.

As it should be, but I've never considered EDU to be that relevant in
my game.  Is this kind of detail really necessary in a RPG which does
not bother to differentiate between Dexterity & Agility or Strength &
Endurance?

> Just MHO of course.

Of course :)



James W. Lindsay      Vancouver, British Columbia

"WIZARD PARKING ONLY"... All Others Will Be Toad.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 02:14:09 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

On Sat, 08 Mar 1997 16:05:45 -0800, you wrote:

> >Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:53:23 GMT
> >From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>=20
> >T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
>=20
> That can't be right.  Education level is the amount of schooling that =
sticks.  Look,=20
> e.g., at the rules for college and the academies.  You have to roll for=
 an increase in=20
> education, even though you did all four years. =20

Just quoting from page 15 of the T4 main rulebook, which states that
Education "--measures amount of schooling."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1048
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 9 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1049



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Droyne
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
TNE and the Heretic Order!
Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: The cost of living in T4
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Missing CT/MT weapons (was Re: Battledress)
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Alien Book
Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?
Re: The Four Horsepersons of the Apocalypse #2
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Attributes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:14:50 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Droyne

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, David Smart wrote:
> Yep, combine their size with their Psi abilities and you've one
> incredibly *mean* warrior. One of the TNE supplements actually had
> a raid on a Virus-laden computer onboard an crashed Droyne warship.
> Aside from providing the only deckplan ever published for a Droyne
> ship (AFAIK), it provided a few details into how Droyne actually
> work in combat. Unfortunately, the adventure didn't go far enough
> in taking into account their Telepathy ability to provide an
> undetecable/unjammable taccom system.

Droyne warriors should get a lot more respect than they do.  The Droyne
have, after all, been "civilized" so long that a "technician" caste has
evolved, just to invent, build, and maintain complicated tools.  Perhaps
the Droyne have been making and using "high-tech" weapons for so long that
the "warrior" caste has a *literally instinctive aptitude* for small unit
tactics, fire-fights, and so forth.  I think the "Moties," from "The Mote
in God's Eye," could serve as a moderately good model for Droyne (at least
regarding caste specialization and adaptation to hundreds of thousands of
years of technological civilization). 
                                                              - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:19:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> He probably has a weapons status screen, telling him how many rounds he has
> avalible, wether the safty is activated, and possibly what type of round is
> loaded for heavier weapons.  He also may have a locator beacon, which allows
> him to tell where his buddies are, even in poor visability conditions.

If the data gathered by all of the sensors in, say, a squad, were combined
and checked against one another by a "tactical computer," interesting
things would become possible. Suppose, for example, that soldier "A" can't
see a potential target, because there's a wall in his way.  Soldiers "B" 
and "C", however, can see this target. The tactical computer "paints" a
translucent, "greyed-out" picture of this hidden target for soldier "C,"
using data from "A" and "B" (corrected for distance, and the angle from
which it is being "viewed"). This image would be "painted" right onto the
inner surface of the suit's visor.  Soldier "C" could then blast through
that wall with his FGMP-14, without waiting to be consciously informed of
the target's presence by "A" or "B".  Likewise, the tactical computer
could "tint" the images of potential targets, to indicate whether they're
in range or not...the possibilites are endless.

                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 97 20:30:27 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

In a message dated 3/8/97 5:08 PM, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

>	Well, *I* think that the UPP, chargen, and task systems are kinda
>busted in the area of schooling.  Education gives you skills, not some
>undefined "educatedness".  This treatment of education as a stat is poorly
>concieved, and IMHO severly broken, as it is a poor mapping of human
>capabilities.  Here's an example of why:
<Keen Example snipped>

>	Indeed, my having learned about various social sciences and the law
>should only be taken into account when making rolls based on psych, soc,
>anthro, or law.  However, my having been to school and learned about them
>is already represented on my character sheet in the skills section, so why
>should it also be reflected in the stats section and recalculated in the
>roll?
>
>	I submit that a better modelling of how education enhances a
>person's capabilities is simply to put what the character learns into the
>skill side of the sheet, and roll skills based on intelligence (or other
>mental stats) plus those education-acquired skills.
>
>	IMHO, StoryTeller models the mental aspects of humans much better;
>it has three mental stats called Intelligence, Perception, and Wits (which
>measures quick reaction in urgent/high pressure situations), and any of
>these can be rolled in conjunction with the skills classified as
>"Knowledges", which are acquired via education (they can be rolled with any
>other skills too).  So, a Perception+Sensors roll could be required to
>notice subtly anomalous readings, an Intelligence+Sensors roll to determine
>that they're emanating from a stealthed Zhodani DD, and a Wits+Tactics roll
>to determine what to do about it.
>
>	I think that these are a pretty good reflection of how people
>think, personally, much more so than T4's INT and EDU stats...

I can't argue with you. Your example and description of the StoryTeller 
system does sound like a well thought-out system, and it seems superior 
to Traveller's INT and EDU.

Y'know, I just might adapt such a system to my Traveller campaign... I 
can see it now, 3 physical stats: STR, DEX, CON; and 3 mental stats: 
INT(Mental Strength), WIT(Mental Quickness), PER(Mental Stamina). I like 
the symmetry...



===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 20:18:49 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

On 03/06/97 at 11:10 PM,  Mused <marz@HotStar.net> said:

> don't hand me any malarkey about wasted kinetic energy, shoot a rabbit with a > 7.62mm NATO round and then  tell me if any energy was "wasted")

A 7.62mm hunting rabbits?  Now *that's* sporting! A 22 (5.??), is overkill
for a rabbit. A 7.62 is built to kill man-sized targets at *long* ranges.

Concerning the effect of hitting a body with a big, fast round...doesn't
this have to do with hydrostatic shock or something?  The bullet passing
through at high speed sends off a shockwave in the body..right? For a small
animal it would simply blow it apart.  As far as the 7.62mm and the rabbit,
I'm sure *most* of the energy stayed with the bullet after it had passed
though, and expended itself knocking a hole through a tree or something.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 20:06:04 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

On 03/08/97 at 03:53 AM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

> I've never liked the idea of an EDU stat for roleplaying games that also
> use Skills. 

I agree with you here.

If there is going to be an EDU attribute, it should measure how well, how
quickly, and how much a PC can learn things in an
EDUCATIONAL environment.  In my games, EDU is a character's
"book-learning, book-using" ability, it's his aptitude for
scholarship.  INT is the "street-learning, experience-using" ability of a
PC.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 20:26:22 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: TNE and the Heretic Order!

On 03/07/97 at 08:16 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:

> While on the subject, I will say that I think reverting to the CT rules
> as the basis for a new game was a big mistake. TNE's mechanics are
> simply the best, most realistic I've ever come across. And the task
> system is par excellence. It functions great and is only marginally more
> difficult to learn and use than that of MT. And the results are far more
> realistic roleplaying.

I keep going back to TNE and trying to use it.  <sigh> The mechanics are
good, but the task system...I *almost* like it, but not quite. I keep
trying to take TNE's task system and cross it with Aftermath!'s..maybe
someday I'll get it right.

> 	Heretic! 

Our numbers are growing! =:->

> 	So which position do you want in the pantheon of Traveller Evil
> Unlimited? The Four Horsemen are already claimed, but otherwise the
> field's fairly wide open ...

Except Chaos...I've got chaos! 


Eris,
  the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 19:52:41 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?

On 03/07/97 at 05:59 PM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:

> Skill levels in T4 do not have the same "value" as they did in CT. They
> have been de-valued.  Given that, an explanation of each of the skills
> levels is presented below.

> Skill level zero (used for T4 default skills) implies the equivalent of
> reading a manual and playing the videogame.

> Skill level one implies the equivalent of taking undergraduate courses
> and having some initial on-the-job training.

> Skill level two implies the equivalent of masters level courses and
> having limited real world experience.

> Skill level three implies the equivalent of doctorate level courses and
> having solid experience in the work place.

> Skill level four implies the equivalent of knowing a skill well enough to
> get a job teaching it.

> Skill level five implies the equivalent of knowing a skill well enough to
> have done years of research in it.

> What think thou?

I think you're rating the skills too high...too soon. ;->

Here's what I think:

Level 0 - You saw somebody do it once, and if you're lucky you won't
          hurt yourself trying.

Level 1 - Novice apprentice or beginning student after a few months
          of study.

Level 2 - Advanced apprentice or student after a couple years of
          study.

Level 3 - Journeyman, BS/BA graduate, Medical Student.

Level 4 - Journeyman nearing Master status, a Professional with
          on-the-job experience, someone with an advanced education
          like a Masters or even PhD, or a practicing MD.

Level 5 - A Master of a craft, an Expert in a field, or a medical
          specialist with the training and experience to back it up.

Level 6 - A Grand Master, a leading authority in the field, or a
          Guru.

Level 7 - Yoda, Steven Hawking or Michael Jordan.

Level 8 - "...in the beginning..."


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 22:35:16 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 03:53 AM 3/8/97 GMT, you wrote:
>I've never liked the idea of an EDU stat for roleplaying games that
>also use Skills.  Traveller, however, takes it one step further, by
>providing characters with EDU stats, Skills, and even a specific skill
>called "Jack of all Trades".  Yikes!  Talk about covering all your
>bases!
>
>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
>
>Acknowledging this, EDU cannot be absolute.  The more a character
>learns, the higher his or her EDU should become. 

Wait a minute, I missed that.  Given that EDU measures the amount of
schooling, why can't it be absolute?

> The problem, of
>course, is that some skills are linked to Education...
>
>If a game system uses skills, the inclusion of an EDU statistic should
>be used simply to cover skills that aren't covered by the game system,
>of for defaulting to skills not posessed by the character.  By very
>definition, characters with high skills should also have high EDU,
>since EDU defines the character's education (ie: the skills and
>knowledge s/he posesses).

I disagree with your definition.  I know plenty of people who have a piece
of paper that says they have a college degree who don't have any
measureable skills (at least as far as I can tell).  :-)  

I still think your EDU measures how much schooling you have, not how many
skills you have.


 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 22:35:13 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 07:32 PM 3/7/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>> IF this is true, would that imply that EVERYONE with an EDU of 9 has
>> completed their Undergraduate degree?
>> 
>> Here's why that's important:  If you're going to hand out lots of EDU, then
>> characters should have to pay for it in terms of years added to age.  You
>> can generate a character who's initial UPP has a C for EDU.  He's got a
>> grad degree at 18 years old? 
>
>Doesn't this assume that all worlds in the Imperium work just like 20th 
>Century Earth? Maybe different societies teach people at different rates. 
>(It's a standard of the Heinlein juveniles that 15-year-olds know 
>advanced calc, for example...) 

This is a good point and one I didn't consider.  I don't have a good answer
for it, other than to make an exception for a player who can define the
culture of his homeworld as such.

>I always figured EDU measured how much factual knowledge you have about 
>the universe, whether you got that at a university, being apprenticed 
>into the technocratic priesthood at age 12, or whatever. 

I might be willing to agree with this, but then why does T4 define like this:

  "measures amount of schooling"

I suppose you could allow a variety of places *where* the schooling took
place (ie technocratic priesthoods), but I don't think you can change the
fact that it's formal schooling.

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 22:35:18 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 11:03 PM 3/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 18:00:01 -0500
>>From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
>>Subject: Are EDU levels absolute?
>
>>IF this is true, would that imply that EVERYONE with an EDU of 9 has
>>completed their Undergraduate degree?
>
>>Here's why that's important:  If you're going to hand out lots of EDU, then
>>characters should have to pay for it in terms of years added to age.  You
>>can generate a character who's initial UPP has a C for EDU.  He's got a
>>grad degree at 18 years old?
>
>I don't think a high EDU equals formal education.  

Uh, but T4 defines EDU as a measure of schooling.  Ooops.  Given that
definition, EDU *must* equal formal education.  One could dicker about how
and where that education takes place (ie, tradition college vs personal
tutor), but it's still schooling.

Does that dork with the rest of your arguments?

>To illustrate, according
>to the T4 rulebook, Biology skill is governed by INT and/or EDU.  It
>further states that EDU is important for Biology due to the vast amount of
>detail a person is required to memorize, e.g. what separates this species
>from that species, how does a liver work, how does a orgainism's excretion
>process work.  That's all data that someone can read in a textbook.  You
>don't need to have a MS in Biology to understand theory and apply it on a
>limited basis.  

I think the key word here is "limited".  How many companies hire biologists
who are "self taught"?  Or chemists, or engineers, or geologists, or
historians, etc.  Not many.  You _can_ read this stuff in a textbook, but
it's not the same, IMO.

>Think of all the Audubon Societies in the States - people
>with specific knowledge of the environment and nature, yet not necessarily
>college educated.

Never heard of this myself, so I can't comment on it.

>Or let's say I make a successful Biology/EDU skill role in recognizing a
>tree-like H'resh alien.  I've got Biology-1 and EDU A.  I make the skill
>role not due to my skill from college but mostly due to the knowledge
>gleaned from all those Year Zero Discovery Channel Programs on the
>tree-like H'Resh I watched that are reflected in my general EDU background.
>
>In my campaigns, someone with a high EDU may have gone to graduate
>school...or may be person with a high INT, low SO who couldn't afford
>college but who still had an "insaitable curiosity" and is constantly
>reading biology texts (or whatever).
>
>IMHO, that gives one more flexibility when roleplaying.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't see how they prove that EDU is not
absolute.



 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 22:35:25 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: The cost of living in T4

At 12:00 AM 3/9/97 +1300, you wrote:
>At 19:26 7/03/1997 -0500, you wrote:
>>Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:59:46 -0500
>>From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
>>Subject: The cost of living in T4

>I think the best system was in MT, living costs equalled SOC x Cr250
>per month; conspicious consumption, largess, higher quality clothes
>food, quarters etc. being required to maintain your SOC level. If you
>didn't spend enough on your upkeep, your SOC dropped; or if you spent
>enough it went up. This put average living costs between Cr1500 and
>Cr 2250 per month.

I really like this idea.  For food, entertainment, clothes, and lodging my
wife and I spend around $800.  Therefor my SS = 3.2.  Ouch.  That seems low.

>I also seem to remember a quote from sometime in the late 70's or
>early 80's which gave a rough "exchange" rate of 1cr = $0.50 US.

Ah, ok, if this is true, my SS = 6.4.  I'd say that's about right.  

In my game, 1Cr ~= $1.  Therefore your cost of living per month would need
to be SOC x $500.

Let's see how that compares with the chart I published earlier.  The cost
of living for a knight (SS=B) is 11x500 = 5500 Cr/month.  The range that I
published earlier for 'high living' was from 3500 to 9000 Cr/month.  That
matches well.  The lower end would be for folks who don't get out as much
and upper end would be just the opposite.

Thanks for the idea.  I think I'll use it.

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 22:54:27 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

At 04:10 PM 3/8/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> Here's an even simpler fix:  triple the amount of skills that are awarded
>> during character generation.  Now you can eliminate pre-game calculation
>> and every skill level is worth 1!
>
>Well, the problem you will have with this fix is the skill level not 
>meaning anything problem.
>
>You know, the Pilot-4/Dex-6 vs Pilot-1/Dex-10 problem.
>
>Attrubutes are still much more important than skills under your 
>simpler fix, and I'm against that.
>
>This is why you must have some sort of multiplier to use with the 
>skill level--to make it more important to the target number.

Uh, this logic isn't very.  Logical that is.  

Question: What's the difference between taking skill 1 and multiplying it
by 3 and have having skill 3 and not multiplying by anything.

Answer: Nothing.  They're the same.

[hint: try it with a calculator.  you get the same answer.]

:-)

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 23:02:02 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Missing CT/MT weapons (was Re: Battledress)

At 04:42 PM 3/8/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> If you're playing T4 and missing the weapons detailed in CT and MT, check
>out:
>> 
>>   http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/t4/weapon.htm
>> 
>> Damage, ranges, the works!
>> 
>> Enjoy.

>i noticed you haven't tried to convert the PGMP or FGMP yet.... i've been
>working on them plus some more armor like the original combat armour
>they used to have and sort of style like the storm trooper stuff...

Like my main page says -- "in progress"  :-)  Give me another week or so.

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 23:00:54 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 04:05 PM 3/8/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:53:23 GMT
>>From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>
>>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."

It is right.

>That can't be right.  Education level is the amount of schooling that
sticks.  

I disagree.  I took plenty of classes that I don't remember squat about.
But I still have my degree, don't I.  So if EDU is absolute, I've acquired
EDU 9 (or whatever a BS is) whether I can remember it or not.

>Look, 
>e.g., at the rules for college and the academies.  You have to roll for an
increase in 
>education, even though you did all four years.  

Uh, check the rules again, friend.  It says "the graduate also add (sic) +1
to his EDU per year for the full term..."  No rolling required.



 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 23:22:48 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

Volker A. Greimann writes: 

- - -> VEGANS, VEGANS, VEGANS
- - -> We want real rules for Vegans (don't make them some sort of weird
cult)
Seconded! Ad Astra,

   Try Traveller Chronicle #11 and #12.  Or just ask me *really* nice.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 23:14:27 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?

At 07:52 PM 3/8/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On 03/07/97 at 05:59 PM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:
>
>> Skill levels in T4 do not have the same "value" as they did in CT. They
>> have been de-valued.  Given that, an explanation of each of the skills
>> levels is presented below.
>
>> Skill level zero (used for T4 default skills) implies the equivalent of
>> reading a manual and playing the videogame.
>
>> Skill level one implies the equivalent of taking undergraduate courses
>> and having some initial on-the-job training.
>
>> Skill level two implies the equivalent of masters level courses and
>> having limited real world experience.
>
>> Skill level three implies the equivalent of doctorate level courses and
>> having solid experience in the work place.
>
>> Skill level four implies the equivalent of knowing a skill well enough to
>> get a job teaching it.
>
>> Skill level five implies the equivalent of knowing a skill well enough to
>> have done years of research in it.
>
>> What think thou?
>
>I think you're rating the skills too high...too soon. ;->
>
>Here's what I think:
>
>Level 0 - You saw somebody do it once, and if you're lucky you won't
>          hurt yourself trying.
>
>Level 1 - Novice apprentice or beginning student after a few months
>          of study.
>
>Level 2 - Advanced apprentice or student after a couple years of
>          study.
>
>Level 3 - Journeyman, BS/BA graduate, Medical Student.
>
>Level 4 - Journeyman nearing Master status, a Professional with
>          on-the-job experience, someone with an advanced education
>          like a Masters or even PhD, or a practicing MD.
>
>Level 5 - A Master of a craft, an Expert in a field, or a medical
>          specialist with the training and experience to back it up.
>
>Level 6 - A Grand Master, a leading authority in the field, or a
>          Guru.
>
>Level 7 - Yoda, Steven Hawking or Michael Jordan.
>
>Level 8 - "...in the beginning..."

I might be willing to go along with this, Eris, but I have a few problems.
By reading just your defns, one would have to be level 4 (or at least 3)
before I'd consider him to be useful.  Are you going to book a flight on a
starship liner if you knew the pilot was only level 2?  Not me. 

So how do we solve this?  To me, it assumes that characters should have
several (say 4 or 5) skills were they reach level 3/4.  That's hard to do
unless you allow the player to choose exactly which skills he recieves.
Then he could pick the same ones again and again.  But I personally *like*
the randomness element of character generation.  

So how do you run generation?  How many skills does your character have
that are at least level 3 (and how old are you)?

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 23:28:41 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: The Four Horsepersons of the Apocalypse #2

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. writes:

>>Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:52:59 -0600 (CST)
>>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
>>>Lessee, Famine, Plague, Pestilence...what's the fourth one?  
>>>Bad Table Manners?
>>War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death, if I recall correctly.
>
>No, isn't it War, Famine, Pestilence, and Taxes?

   Wrong.  Taxes are a form of Pestilence known to bring on Famine
(particularly in one's wallet).  The American Revolution was a War
fought in part over Taxes, and most countries see fit to tax you heavily
when you die (Inheritance Tax on Death).

   Does that clear it up?

Regards,

War (formerly known as Harold)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 21:49:33 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

On 03/08/97 at 04:10 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

> > Here's an even simpler fix:  triple the amount of skills that are awarded
> > during character generation.  Now you can eliminate pre-game calculation
> > and every skill level is worth 1!

> Well, the problem you will have with this fix is the skill level not 
> meaning anything problem.

I know what you mean...and I know what James means, too, and I think either
way (a multiplier or more skills) *could* work.  To make "more skills" work
you'd have to have each skill be gained several times...this *would*
devalue any individual point.  With 3 times as many points to spread over
the limited choices in CharGen you'd have lots of skills up in the 6-9
range...just like using a multiple. Maybe!

Well, I favor using an average multiplier of around 2, instead of your 3,
(actually 10.5/2), *and* having 50% more skills.  How do you like that! 
;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 22:25:42 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Attributes

On 03/08/97 at 08:30 PM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca> said:

> Y'know, I just might adapt such a system to my Traveller campaign... I 
> can see it now, 3 physical stats: STR, DEX, CON; and 3 mental stats: 
> INT(Mental Strength), WIT(Mental Quickness), PER(Mental Stamina). I like 
> the symmetry...

I use 4/4 in my homebrew:  

 PHYSICAL: 

    STRENGTH  (lifting, hitting, power)

    CONSTITUTION (endurance, areobic conditioning, recovery)

    AGLILITY (balance, speed, sure-footedness)

    DEXTERITY (hand-eye cooridnation, fine-muscle control)
    
 MENTAL:
 
    INTELLEGENCE (learning/using skills and knowledges from
                  experience, perception, quick wits)
    
    EDUCATION (learning/using skills and knowledges academicly, from
               books..or their equivilent, scholarship..I often call
               it SCH for scholarship)
    
    CHARISMA (social skills, leadership, empathy)
    
    WILL (stubborness, stick-to-it-ness, willpower, mental toughness)
    
PSI would be the ninth, but I don't normally include it in my games.
 
Social Class, is generated seperately.  It has it's place in CharGen and
game play, but never as an Attribute in a Task attempt.

I pretty much settled on this set *years* ago, and except for trying to
actually use a new system I always end up going back to them. 



Eris
    
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1049
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 9 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1050



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!
Deckplans...We've Got Deckplans
Re: Emergency Herald Needed!
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Swords On Ship
Re: Future swordfighting - at the pylon's edge
Terraforming
Behind the Black Curtain?!?
Re: The cost of living in T4
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1041
Shields, swords and other fun things
Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1041
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re Deckplans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 00:01:40 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> On 03/07/97 at 08:16 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:
> > 	So which position do you want in the pantheon of Traveller Evil
> > Unlimited? The Four Horsemen are already claimed, but otherwise the
> > field's fairly wide open ...
> 
> Except Chaos...I've got chaos! 

Hey...this is supposed to be "Traveller", not "Warhammer 40,000" !

                                                           - J. R.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 00:04:48 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Deckplans...We've Got Deckplans

A GNN Corporate Report

(Hazan, CORE) Pan-Imperia Shipyards and Servicing is proud to announce
its new presence on the X-Boat Informational Network. Now customers can
cut out one more middle-man on the route to buying a ship; no longer will 
pushy sales representatives call on you. Full details of Pan-Imperia's recent
THUDDD entry, the PICH-1/2 "Guppy" Class Far Trader can be found there
as well as complete deckplans so that you can see what you'll be getting. 
Don't wait, check it out today, and be in your new starship tomorrow!

**Announcement ends**

My new web page is up and (mostly) running, given the vagarities of CI$... 
Currently, the Far Trader entry is up with its deckplans and description, as
well
as a plan and elevation view. More items will follow as I have time to do them.

The address is: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby

I hope y'all find it useful, and let me know your opinions :-)

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 00:24:16 -0500
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Emergency Herald Needed!

I liked Jef Zietlen's (Yosef's) suggestion for blazoning the Imperial
arms::
Sable, a bezant within an annulet rayonni Or.
as it reduces the number of layers and the complexity, especially in regard
to seconday and thiriary charges.

I feel the real trick (no pun!) is emphasing the narrowness of the dark
ring on the sun. Might I suggest:
Sable, a bezant fimbriated sable enflamed Or.

Later, John Lambert (Lambert)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:24:11 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

>>If that's true, then perhaps some sort of lighter, cheaper armor
>>(like Star Wars stormtroopers) is in order.
>
>Lighter, cheaper armor indeed!  Do you too hear the sound of Imperial
>Marines running screaming from the briefing room upon hearing that Battle
>Dress will be replaced by the armor that didn't really work against a
>single laser blast in three movies?

Laser blast? It didn't even stand up to rocks slung by 1m tall ewoks, rocks
with an impact velocity (judging by their steeply parabolic trajectory) of
about walking speed. You may be interested to know that an "elite"
stormtrooper in the Star Wars RPG rolls 2 dice for attributes and wears
armor which stops 1 die from energy weapons. For comparison, a starting
player character can roll 3 dice for attributes, and a blaster pistol does
4 dice damage. A troop of girl guides could romp on these guys.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:24:15 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

[snip]
>>>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
[snip]
>>... The more a character
>>learns, the higher his or her EDU should become.
[snip]
>...  Education gives you skills, not some
>undefined "educatedness".  This treatment of education as a stat is poorly
>concieved, and IMHO severly broken, as it is a poor mapping of human
>capabilities.

I disagree with these characterizations. My understanding was that all
attributes were natural, untrained ability, not the amount of training you
have (that's what skills are). Therefore, the Education attribute is one's
natural, untrained ability to learn. This is not the same as intelligence;
someone with a learning disability could still be very intelligent, someone
with low intelligence but high education would have a knack for doing
things right even though she or he may be illiterate. Also, combining the
two would make Intelligence too powerful an attribute and unbalance the
game.

I don't think the stat is poorly conceived, unless you think it means how
much training or 'schooling' you have had. Perhaps it is only poorly named.
True, the rules do define education as "amount of schooling", but I
considered this an effect rather than a cause. College increases one's
Education not by requiring you to memorize stuff, but by exposing you to an
environment which allows those with a natural love of learning to encounter
knowledge and experiences which would be very difficult to find anywhere
else. People without such a love of learning will only learn 'skills'. This
explains why an 18-year old can roll an 'education' of 12, and why someone
can go through 6 years of college and graduate school without increasing
their 'education' at all. I also think it is plausible that the same
Education attribute gets added to both History and Robotics tasks; no, you
don't learn about robotics in history class, but someone with a natural
love of learning will get more out of their history or robotics class than
those who only care 'will this be on the exam?'.

I don't agree that the Edu attribute is broken. However, the rules do have
a few problems; getting +1 Edu practically every 2 years of graduate school
is unreasonable and unbalances the game. I suggest reducing the target
number for honors to 5-. The task system published in the rules overvalues
attributes to such an extent skills are practically worthless. I suggest
using one of Kenneth Bearden's (sp?) task systems. I don't suggest
abolishing the Education attribute.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 00:32:12 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

I might as well weigh in...

   One of the many off color jokes told by Terran Republic Marines is,
"so, do you want to see my cutlass?"  at which point he pulls it out of
his pants.  The full humor of this joke is lost when it is told by a
female Marine, for obvious reasons, though they have been known to
resort to creative props from time to time.  One of the creative props
used is a 5.3mm gauss pistol, which isn't funny, though it doesn't get
the point across.

   In the Terran Republic setting, Marines are not ship's troops, that
duty goes to a new branch of the Navy called Naval Security.  Both the
Marines and Naval Security forces fight in close quarters however, so
they have need of close quarters weapons.

   Marines and Naval Security troops are issued three types of weapons,
though they have been known to carry more on their own initative
(various martial arts weapons, piano wire, longer edged weapons, etc.). 

   Their primary armament is a firearm.  This consists of a gauss
carbine, gauss submachine gun, automatic shotgun, or in particularly
tight quarters, a gauss pistol.  Plasma rifles are rarely issued, except
in cases where enemy troops in battledress are expected.  

   The secondary armament is a grenade.  The type(s) of grenade issued
depend upon the mission.  Standard urban combat operations call for the
use of HE grenades to clear rooms, blow open locked doors, etc. 
"Flash-Bang" grenades, sonic grenades, and tranq grenades are used on
capture missions or for anti-terrorism operations where hostages are
involved.

   The final armament type is an edged weapon for hand-to-hand
fighting.  The edged weapon of choice is the dagger, though some troops
have been known to carry bayonets which can double both as a dagger or
as the "pointy end" when mounted on a gauss carbine, turning it into a
thrusting weapon.  

- -----

   Swords are simply not commonly carried because their bulk would be a
hinderance in tight quarters and because of what's known as "Indiana
Jones syndrome" (the scene in the first of the triology where Indy is
confronted by a sword welding bad guy).  Fighting with swords is nice
until you come up against an enemy that has no problem pulling out a
pistol and shooting you before you get into range of your bladed
weapon.  Pistols become the close in fighting weapon of choice probably
about the time of the Thirty Years War, even though long bladed weapons
continued to be carried for sometime.  Initially, this is because you
have to have *something* to kill the enemy with after you shoot off the
half dozen single shot pistols you are carrying (battlefield reloading
of early musket pistols during a melee is not advisable).  This would
also apply on board a wooden ship.  Boarding parties used their pistols
(unless they were trying to silently interdict the crew), then their
knives and swords, and then if necessary whatever else might be at hand
including improvised clubs, even fists, and teeth.

   Long-edged weapons look great on a TV or movie screen (ask the
Klingons) but they have little practical value in the Age of Smith &
Wesson, Ruger, H&K, Glock, etc.  Now if you want to give your soldiers
the ability to deflect bullets or energy rounds with their long edged
weapons (a la a Star Wars light saber) then you might want to bring such
weapons back.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 00:37:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Future swordfighting - at the pylon's edge

	Howdy!


On Sat, 8 Mar 1997 Neveron@aol.com wrote:

> >        During the late  Renaissance, it was considered a valid, if somewhat
> >risky tactic, to use your left hand to grab your opponent's rapier and trap
> >it. 

	Hence the Spanish innovation of the guanto di pressa (sp?), a
chainmail glove designed to minimize injury in this maneuver.


	Laterish!

	Ken

- --
Kenneth J. Winland, M.A.
University of Toronto
Department of Anthropology
E-mail: kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  9 Mar 97 06:08:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Terraforming

> Earth is a rarity because it has just the right atmosphere, mass
> and distance from its primary to become "class M".
    This just gave me a thought.  The First Imperium expected to be around for
a long time, and was actually.  The Third Imperium expected to be around for a
long time too, and 1,100+ years is a pretty long run too.  What I'm thinking
here is that this plenty long enough of a time for terraformation projects to
get started, and finished, on a slew of marginal planets.  Not to mention
ecological transformation or engineering projects.
    So what exactly is going to be involved in doing this?  We've got all these
hard science types on the list so...

    What worlds would be candidates for terraformation?

    What would be required to terraform such worlds?

    What techiques and technologies would be developed/used?

    What time frame are we talking about?

    What kind of costs?

    So, what questions have I missed?  An important point here to consider, the
limitations of jump drive.  You can export only so many people so far to your
frontier, it takes a long time to move any serious distance in Traveller.
Therefore the ability to create internal frontiers by taking otherwise useless
rocks and turning them into habitable worlds... would be a very useful thing
indeed.

    Thoughts?  Comments??  Flames???

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  9 Mar 97 06:08:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Behind the Black Curtain?!?

> It is at the center of the so-called "Black Curtain".  GDW never
> published exactly what happened there, but a select few of us know
> what they had in mind (at least back in 1992).
    WHICH WAS?!?!?  Geeze!  And here I thought my girlfriend was a World Class
Tease!  This is information you are expected to release at once! <GRIN>

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 01:41:11 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: The cost of living in T4

James Garriss wrote:

>
>>I think the best system was in MT, living costs equalled SOC x Cr250
>>per month; conspicious consumption, largess, higher quality clothes
>>food, quarters etc. being required to maintain your SOC level. If you
>>didn't spend enough on your upkeep, your SOC dropped; or if you spent
>>enough it went up. This put average living costs between Cr1500 and
>>Cr 2250 per month.
>
>I really like this idea.  For food, entertainment, clothes, and lodging my
>wife and I spend around $800.  Therefor my SS = 3.2.  Ouch.  That seems low.

	You think that's low?  By that standard, i.e. disposable income for
luxuries and entertainment, I've got a SOC of maybe 0.2 :).

	Actually, I think that the number of credits of disposable
income/month per level of SOC ought to be exponential; Cleon, with his SOC
of 16 has a lot more disposable income than 16 times the disposable income
of some SOC-1 plebe...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 01:35:10 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>In a message dated 3/8/97 5:08 PM, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>
>>	Well, *I* think that the UPP, chargen, and task systems are kinda
>>busted in the area of schooling.  Education gives you skills, not some

[snip]

>>	IMHO, StoryTeller models the mental aspects of humans much better;
>>it has three mental stats called Intelligence, Perception, and Wits (which
[snip]
>>	I think that these are a pretty good reflection of how people
>>think, personally, much more so than T4's INT and EDU stats...
>
>I can't argue with you. Your example and description of the StoryTeller
>system does sound like a well thought-out system, and it seems superior
>to Traveller's INT and EDU.
>
>Y'know, I just might adapt such a system to my Traveller campaign... I
>can see it now, 3 physical stats: STR, DEX, CON; and 3 mental stats:
>INT(Mental Strength), WIT(Mental Quickness), PER(Mental Stamina). I like
>the symmetry...
>

	Hmm... interesting.  I really do think that StoryTeller does a
better job of mapping human traits onto the character sheet, so to speak.
It does the traditional Strength, Dexterity, and Stamina thing for physical
stats, has Appearance, Manipulation, and Charisma for social stats, and
mental stats are dealt with above.  I like the social stats; visualise a
sleazy noble using Manipulation + leadership to get his troops to charge,
whereas a more heroic one would use Charisma...

	As far as the rest of the system goes, well, it has its pros and
cons.  I'm of the opinion that the task system is superior to T4's and very
flexible; you roll (stat+skill)d10's against a difficulty number set by
either rules (such as 8 [+/- various modifiers] to hit with a .45) or ref
fiat (horking a lugie into a spittoon 40' away while conducting a symphony
and coding a virus in C++ on a laptop with your toes should be good for a
10).  The more d10s you roll equal to or higher than the difficulty number,
the more "successes" you get the better you do (I would require at least 15
successes on an extended series of rolls on the horking/conducting/coding
stunt).  10s may be re-rolled to add successes, and 1's cancel successes;
more 1's than successes get you a spectacular failure of magnitude
determined by the number of 1's you rolled...

	And that's basically the task system.  Combat rules are badly
broken but fixable.

	I like your PER stat.  It could be applied in the following
fashion: each level of PER gets you an hour's effective attention span
before DM's start piling on; thus, someone with a PER of 9 under normal
circumstances is good for 9 hours work on a task before he/she starts to
get fuzzy and lose their edge.

	Actually, I just got this idea for a 12-stat UPP: STR, DEX, AGL,
END for physical stats, APP, MAN, CHA, SOC for social stats, and INT,
PERCEP, WIT, PERSEV for mental...  I think that it really makes sense and
covers all the bases.  Of course, you'd have to tweak the damage rules a
bit, but I think that it's doable.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 02:12:03 -0500 (EST)
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1041

<< Not much.  Remember... the same energy that strikes your target is the
same energy the shooter must deal with as recoil. >>

  True, and not. The "recoil" that a shooter feels is lessened from the
original force via a buffer spring (on slug throwers, anyway). Firing an
M-16/AR-15 would be a different story if there were no buffer spring.

  Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 20:15:55 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Shields, swords and other fun things

I've seen a fair bit of discussion on the list about shields and swords.
Just a few thoughts:

Shields: The traditional shield fell out of use because melee ceased to
be a major factor in warfare, if your not in close combat why carry one?
against missile weapons sheilds always were of limited use because one
just couldn't get it in the way in time. Also the shield is a weapon
which requires a good deal of skill to use. Shields held on in the form
of the targe or buckler until the 18th century (Spanish sword and buckler
men were a major factor in the defeat of the swiss pike blocks).

Modern riot shields are intended against low velocity missiles (rocks and
bottles) that you can see coming, not bullets which you can't; and they
also rely on closely packed formations to be effective. Notice how many
riot police drop their shields when moving into melee.

Swords: Why do the marines receive training in cutlass? I can give a number
of good reasons.
1  Tradition: it builds espirt du corp
2  Safety: the cutlass is part of the dress uniform and it looks bad if a
   marine cuts their fingers off when drawing one to return a salute
3  Fitness: swinging a cutlass is great for improving dexterity, stamina
   and building upper body strength (HMS Temeraire, the RN physical fitness
   school uses cutlass drill for exactly this purpose)
4  Ceremony: cutlass drill is intergral to various marine ceremony, thus all
   marine recruits are taught certain basic moves such as present arms, how
   to salute with one etc.
5  Recruiting: marine display units regularly appear at local pagents and
   other events giving stunning displays of precision cutlass drill,
   essentially for recruiting purposes.
6  Combat use: there will be rare occassions when marines will be in melee
   combat, the cutlass is a good melee weapon and a modern combat rifle
   is a precision intrument and suffers accordingly if you hit someone over
   the head with it! Also note that a modern bullpup rifle doesn't make a
   good bayonet platform (they're short and teribly unbalanced).

Which is better, the broadsword or rapier? Depends on the level of training
the weilder has. A rapier, with its advantages of speed and manueverability
probably has the edge over the heavy slashing broadsword; but it does require
the user to be very well trained to take advantage of this. The training
costs are what make the rapier the less attractive weapon. A poorly trained
swordsman with a rapier will be defeated by a swordsman with the same degree
of training with a broadsword; however in the hands of an expert its a very
different story.

Just my $NZ0.0247 (at todays rate of echange).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  "Cross my heart
   Hope to die
   Don't believe in the night
   Its a game that we play
   Each and every day"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 03:01:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?

> I think you're rating the skills too high...too soon. ;->
> 
> Here's what I think:

I am in complete agreement with Eris' skill definitions.  In fact, 
because of the multiplier, KBv2.0 (and for that matter, KBv1.1) works 
best when skills don't reach too much over level 8.

The system is really not designed with higher skill levels in mind.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 03:01:37 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> Well, I favor using an average multiplier of around 2, instead of your 3,
> (actually 10.5/2), *and* having 50% more skills.  How do you like that! 
> ;->

I would expect nothing less from the heretic side of the fence!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 09:28:13 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1041

On Sun, 9 Mar 1997 02:12:03 -0500 (EST), you wrote:

> << Not much.  Remember... the same energy that strikes your target is =
the
> same energy the shooter must deal with as recoil. >>
>=20
>   True, and not. The "recoil" that a shooter feels is lessened from the
> original force via a buffer spring (on slug throwers, anyway). Firing =
an
> M-16/AR-15 would be a different story if there were no buffer spring.

I did say "deal with" and I really didn't want to get involved with
recoil springs and rubber stock pads but, yeah...  :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 03:01:40 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> Uh, this logic isn't very.  Logical that is. 

My mistake.  I've been checking the TML on the fly the last couple of 
days, so I haven't had time for lengthy posts.  That's why I haven't 
posted the numbers to KBv2.0 yet.

It is also clear that I didn't digest you point well, but I have now. 
 See my replies to this post.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 09:28:09 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

On Sat, 8 Mar 97 20:30:27 -0600, you wrote:

> I can't argue with you. Your example and description of the StoryTeller=
=20
> system does sound like a well thought-out system, and it seems superior=
=20
> to Traveller's INT and EDU.
>=20
> Y'know, I just might adapt such a system to my Traveller campaign... I=20
> can see it now, 3 physical stats: STR, DEX, CON; and 3 mental stats:=20
> INT(Mental Strength), WIT(Mental Quickness), PER(Mental Stamina). I =
like=20
> the symmetry...

Actually, it goes...

Physical: Strength, Dexterity, Stamina
Mental: Perception, Intelligence, Wits
Social: Charisma, Manipulation*, Appearance

* ie: cunning or "social stealth" (muah-ah-ah-ahh!)

The system works great, just like Rod explained (adding a skill's
level with what ever stat most closely represents the way the skill is
being used).  One problem, however... stats and skills only range from
1 to 5 in WhiteWolf's Storyteller system (ie: not a lot of room to
differentiate between characters).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 03:01:38 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> Ken, I don't see the difference... The value of each skill level is 
> reduced by a third using his fix. So your Pilot-4/Dex-6 vs Pilot-1/Dex-10 
> would become Pilot-1.3333/Dex-6 vs Pilot-0.33333/Dex-10. :-) Basically, 
> he's redefining the value of skills: Beginner is Pilot-3, Professional is 
> Pilot-9, Expert is Pilot-18...

Gotcha.  I would agrue agains redefining the skill levels, then.  
They've been the same value in CT and MT through to T4.  Why change 
that?

CharGen is easier fixed to not provide so many skills for a 
character.  For one quick thought, simply apply a roll for skill each 
year.  Copy the rolls in the CT/MT 1 year method CharGen systems.  
This will provide a good character with a lot of skills--but not too 
many that are too high.


> I do think the "simpler fix" *won't* work well for another reason: One 
> could take level-1 in a whackload of skills and avoid an unskilled 
> penalty in too many areas.

Another good point.

> Which brings me to another point I've been meaning to ask: How does 
> KBv2.0 handle unskilled task rolls?

The way it is handled in T4, with half attribute, is how I was 
planning to handle it.  Of course, this is much more stringent than 
the T4 system because of the change in difficulty codes, but I don't 
see that as a negative.  It should be hard to accomplish a task that 
you need a skill for but don't have.

Some GMs may want a less stringent system for unskilled throws.  I'd 
suggest just using the attribute as is without halving it.  I didn't 
run numbers, but I'd guess that this would turn out about the same as 
the T4 system is now.


> Shoot, I don't expect unskilled characters to have the proverbial 
> snowballs hope at Impossible levels (7D) but geez louise, I'd need an 
> attribute of 10 to even have a chance at a Difficult task!

True.  Maybe the whole attribute would be best.  To be honest, I've 
been focussing on KBv2.0.  I haven't even figured out the best way to 
roll SS and SF yet.  This is another issue that needs to be tackled 
after I'm convinced that KBv2.0 is a good system.

So far, so good.  Nobody's pointed out any major bugs.  I think the 
system is going to run nicely.  I plan on posting some numbers soon 
for the TML to analyze.  If anybody can tear apart or approve a 
system, it's the TML.


> I think if I attempted a task that I had no familiarity in, my chances to 
> really foul things up should be higher, n'est-ce pas?

Nice idea.  I'll have to look at this.

>
> Hey, maybe JOT won't be as bad! Sure JOT can be applied to the roll 
> (without multiplying by three) but the chance of SF will remain as 
> unskilled...

Yes...true.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 09:28:11 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

On Sat, 08 Mar 1997 22:35:16 -0500, you wrote:

> At 03:53 AM 3/8/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >
> >T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
> >
> >Acknowledging this, EDU cannot be absolute.  The more a character
> >learns, the higher his or her EDU should become.=20
>=20
> Wait a minute, I missed that.  Given that EDU measures the amount of
> schooling, why can't it be absolute?

Perhaps I should have used the words "limited to a maximum of 15".
That would probably explain my point a little better.  Oops :)

According to Traveller's own definition, the more knowledge we
consume, the higher our education level will become (whether or not it
takes place in a school shouldn't matter) .  With Anagathics or other
longevity drugs, it should be easily possible to exceed a maximum EDU
rating of 15 during his or her lifetime, based on Traveller's own,
albeit vague, definition.

> >If a game system uses skills, the inclusion of an EDU statistic should
> >be used simply to cover skills that aren't covered by the game system,
> >of for defaulting to skills not posessed by the character.  By very
> >definition, characters with high skills should also have high EDU,
> >since EDU defines the character's education (ie: the skills and
> >knowledge s/he posesses).
>=20
> I disagree with your definition.  I know plenty of people who have a =
piece
> of paper that says they have a college degree who don't have any
> measureable skills (at least as far as I can tell).  :-) =20

I was talking in game terms :)  A Traveller character with a piece of
paper and no measurable skills would be simply that... a Traveller
character with a piece of paper and no measurable skills :)

They actually might have some skills that could be put on a character
sheet, however, including Forgery (note from Mommy), Bribery (how much
for an A?), Computer (simply "click-click-click" change this D- to a
B+), Intrusion (I think I can fit Cocraine's theory of warp drive
under my left armpit), etc.

> I still think your EDU measures how much schooling you have, not how =
many
> skills you have.

You've lost me.  I've been to school were I learned skills.  Each year
I progressed, I learned more skills (of course, it was a technical
institute, but that shouldn't make any difference).

Perhaps part of the problem defining Education might stem from the
fact that we normally associate "Knowledge" as academic knowledge with
little use for "hands-on" experience (ie: Law, History, Meteorology,
etc.).  We don't attend law school to acquire the _skill_ of Law,
although we describe a talented lawyer as a "skillful" individual.

"Skills", on the other hand, are easier to define as abilities we
learn which require us to use that skill in a physical manner (ie:
driving, climbing, swimming).  We don't take lessons to gain the
_knowledge_ of swimming, although we can say later that we "know" how
to swim.

Unfortunately, Traveller defines both skills & knowledge as
one-in-the-same and puts them all on the Skills Cluster List.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 06:42:22 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re Deckplans

OK, I've been experiencing some flakiness with CI$, seems that 
their server doesn't always delete your old pages or previous versions
of them... *sigh*     So, the address I posted earlier for Pan-Imperia 
needs to have start.htm pasted onto the end:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/start.htm

I've also found that the graphics don't want to load at times or it will
give a page not found error. Until I can get the CI$ folks to get their
collective @$$ in gear, just hitting the reload button seems to do the
trick.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1050
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 9 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1051



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Swords On Ship
Re: Adventure Idea
Re: The cost of living in T4
Re: Setting discussion
Re: Setting discussion
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!
Re: Modern Shipboard Combat
Re:  Terraforming
Re: Swords on Ship, Military Careers
Re: Swords aboard Ship
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Traveller on IRC
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Future swordfighting - at the pylon's edge
OTT
Re: Terraforming
Psionics & Special Talents
Future T4 rulebook
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Modern Shipboard Combat
Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 03:25:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

In mail you write:

>> The weapons of choice for the Marines ended up being the shotgun with
>> pistols, For the Navy it turned out to be the billy club.  Several
>    [snip again]
>
>    Thanks for a /very/ informative post!
>
>    So, the sailors liked billies, eh?  Interesting...  That should give
>    the cutlass fans among us some fuel for their fires.  I'm both
>    surprised and intrigued.

Look at it this way. Billies (and swords/knives) are *quiet*. That
makes a difference. And in close quarters you are a lot less likely to
nail the wrong person.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 02:30:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Adventure Idea

In mail you write:

> From 'News of the Wierd':
>
> * In a July soccer game in Tripoli, Libya, a team sponsored by
> the eldest son of Muammar Qaddafi suffered a questionable
> referee's call and began beating the official and the other team. 
> After spectators jeered, Qaddafi and his bodyguards opened fire
> on them, and some spectators shot back.  The death toll was
> somewhere between eight and fifty, including the referee, and
> Muammar Qaddafi declared a period of mourning, the hallmark
> of which was that Libyan TV was to be in black and white only. 
>
>
> Wow.
>
> That would make a cool adventure. Characters land on a small world,
> run by a military junta and are invited to watch a local sporting
> event. It would be a good way to meet some locals and make some
> trade contacts, right? I mean, what could happen... ??

South American soccer games have started *wars* (Between Uruguay and
Paraguay, as I recall). And there have been referees who bought surplus
military vehicles and parked them on the sidelines as a sort of
"moveable bunker" to wait out ugly crowds. In one case, the vehicle was
a *tank*. Crowd gets upset at call, ref dives in and closes the hatch.
If they calm down he comes out, if they don't, he drives home...

Americans don't realize just *how* seriously the rest of the world
views soccer.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 02:39:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The cost of living in T4

In mail you write:

> T4 gives some numbers to go by when determining how much characters should
> pay to maintain a certain style of living (in Cr/month):
>
> Starvation Level 
>   a bare minimum of food   60 
>   dismal lodging           60
> Subsistance Level
>   reasonable food         120
>   acceptable lodging      180
> Ordinary Level
>   good food               200
>   good lodgin             200
> High Living
>   excellant food          600
>   excellant accomodations 300
>
> In my current PBeM, we had agreed that 1 Cr ~= $1.  But where could you get
> "high living" for $900/month?  Not in this America.  I was trying to decide
> if these numbers were bad or if my ratio was just bad.  

The "shelter" costs are the kicker. $120/month is a bit more than a
single person gets as max benefit on foodstamps. So that's considered
to be "reasonable" food. 

Now take a look around and see what kind of lodging you get for 180 a
month *unsubsidized*. I know people who are only paying 180/month for
rent. But the *rest* of the rent is coming from one or more rent
assistance programs. 

As a yardstick, remember the handy rule of thumb: To compare a "daily"
rental with a "monthly", multiply the daily by 10. (This is a real
guideline, the difference has to do with the higher overhead and risk
of short term rentals)

So 180/month is equvialent to 18/day. Not exactly decent housing...

That's "subsistence" living. High living is equally bollixed. 600/month
for food is 20/day. Sorry, but a single meal at a *good" restaurant can
run that much, if not more.

And the accomodations prices are even more out of line. 300/month
equals 30/day. That's a pretty *cheap* hotel room. 

The hotel comparison is useful since more of us have experience with
"fancy" hotel rooms than with fancy apartments.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:00:09 +1100
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Setting discussion

At 17:00 8/03/97 +0000, you wrote:
>paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au wrote:
>> 
>> This problem was fixed, and later errata released by GDW beefed up plasma
>> weapons so that if you were hit, you died, and even better, if you were
>> standing next to someone who got hit, you got hurt all over.
>> 
>> Harry
>---I know it was fixed but "too late,too late shall be the cry".By the
>time it was fixed my group had gone back to MT in disgust and wouldn`t
>risk TNE again.It was perceived as being flawed and irrepairable.
>
>
Hmmmm, does not bode well for T4. :(


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:11:23 +1100
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Setting discussion

At 13:10 8/03/97 -0600, Paul wrote:
>your internet Virus representative, 
>and local Virus as citizens coordinator,
>
>Paul {tiger}
>tiger@goldinc.com
>http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger
>

Paul, I downloaded your message, and I really would like to know what gives
you the right to call yourself the internet virus representative, that's
like calling yourself th&^*)& (*-9  ) you the right *&^82
howe608^)*&gT(&^RR&(^%
JH*&^0876 JKHb*&^)*&%*^#itfyt)*&ug*^r*^%e 876)*&t o&^%(%p(*y &t(%*^)*&^*&
*&_UIH(*^)*&^_(**&^(&*%(&&^)*&^)*& 76)*& o8760 jhjdf/860)*&^)6 ^@!^(_(* 8759
(*&_(&+)(*+)(*+)(*+)(YFJHBVLI&*T)*H*

(hee ehee heee) :)
Harry (oh bugger, my computers waving again)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 08:34:00 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043

>When the PC/NPC hits the ground, the BD may come to a halt relatively
>intact, but the poor sap inside will try to keep moving through the BD.
>Hence he will take damage just like those without armor (maybe 1D less, to
>take into account some of the padding).

But since the BD in my campaign has "jump jets", it's going to be damn hard
to trick him into falling any significant distance. And as far as akido against 
BD augmented senses, reflexes, and muscles...heh....heheheheheheh....

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:33:06 +1100
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

At 20:18 8/03/97 -0600, Eris wrote:
>On 03/06/97 at 11:10 PM,  Mused <marz@HotStar.net> said:
>
>> don't hand me any malarkey about wasted kinetic energy, shoot a rabbit
with a > 7.62mm NATO round and then  tell me if any energy was "wasted")
>
>A 7.62mm hunting rabbits?  Now *that's* sporting! A 22 (5.??), is overkill
>for a rabbit. A 7.62 is built to kill man-sized targets at *long* ranges.
>
>Concerning the effect of hitting a body with a big, fast round...doesn't
>this have to do with hydrostatic shock or something?  The bullet passing
>through at high speed sends off a shockwave in the body..right? For a small
>animal it would simply blow it apart.  As far as the 7.62mm and the rabbit,
>I'm sure *most* of the energy stayed with the bullet after it had passed
>though, and expended itself knocking a hole through a tree or something.
>

This reminds me of an Army reserve briefing I heard about (obviously from a
friend in the army reserve).
An army medic was telling the new recruits what to expect if they were hit
by a 7.62mm round.

He started by poining to his lower arm.
"If you get hit here, you'll lose this much of you arm, but you will live!"
At this point he indicates from the elbow down.
He then points at the upper arm.
"If you get hit here, you'll lose this much, but you will live, maybe!"
Indicating from the shoulder down.
He then points to the chest.
"If you get hit here, we can't help you, your dead!"

Now.. I am not saying this is true, but I am having trouble believing in
this "blow through" rule, if the round has enough energy and mass, and hits
in the right place, I can see that it would easily powderise bone and sever
limbs.
This rule just seems to be a convenient way of reducing the deadliness of
combat.
I don't thimk this should be done, if the players want to risk combat, thay
should face ALL of the risks, including a very quick and ignominious (does
that word exist?) death.



Harry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:35:20 +1100
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!

At 20:26 8/03/97 -0600, Eris wrote:
>> 	So which position do you want in the pantheon of Traveller Evil
>> Unlimited? The Four Horsemen are already claimed, but otherwise the
>> field's fairly wide open ...
>
>Except Chaos...I've got chaos! 
>

Damn, if I don't put in a bid soon, the only position left will be Bad Breath.



Harry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 09:25:08 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Modern Shipboard Combat

Disclaimer:  I am not a Marine, but I have a good friend who is (and played one
in my MT campaign, too).

>   Perhaps one of our resident marines would be kind enough to enlighten
>   us as to the (unclassified, of course) theory of modern naval
>   shipboard combat. Thanks in advance!

One word:  shotguns.

  -- Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 09:27:03 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re:  Terraforming

>    So, what questions have I missed?  An important point here to consider, the
>limitations of jump drive.  You can export only so many people so far to your
>frontier, it takes a long time to move any serious distance in Traveller.
>                                                                       ~~~~~~~
Sorry, this just struck me as funny :-) We have ships that can move 6 parsecs in
a week, and we're discussing how limited they are....<g>

Reminds me of the Senator (can't recall the name) who was quoted "A billion
dollars
here, a billion dollars there, and pretty soon you're talking serious
money."  <G>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 09:31:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Swords on Ship, Military Careers

Bob Sanders wrote:

>Sure Rob.  Having spent 9 years in the military, (4 Navy, 5 Marine)

Considering the similarities between the Imperial Marines/Navy and the US ones,
I decided this was on-topic enough for the list -- how did you wind up serving
in both services, if you don't mind my asking?

  -- Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 09:39:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Swords aboard Ship

Bob Sanders wrote:

>In General, the US Navy
>doesn=92t have to worry too much about boarders (in fact the last time, I
>think, the Navy sent away boarding parties was during WWII to capture
>U-505).

Yes and no.  My friend, who was in the Corps after your time, discovered on a
trip to Somalia (I think) that there's a quaint custom called "Piracy Watch."
You stand out on the deck in a vest and helmet, carrying a shotgun, and make
sure the local "pirates" don't board and try to steal crates off your ship.  He
actually came under fire while doing this -- someone ashore was working a
machine gun -- but the ship didn't shoot back.  (He kept waiting for the light
to go on...)  Apparently it happens all the time wherever this was, and
apparently these loons have actually boarded USN ships and stolen stuff, too.

I'm not sure where this happened.

  -- Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 23:24:26 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

Try setting the font options in Pegasus Mail
to Courier New (if you are using it on a PC Clone).
Courier New is a fixed width font, where most others
including the default that most programs use, are 
variable width.  I used to have this problem myself, 
and it _really_ bugs me.

Eric

- ----------
> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Cc: dreamer@brokersys.com
> Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
> Date: Wednesday, March 05, 1997 10:23 AM
> 
> 
> > 				KBv1.1 (TN 8)			KBv2.0 (TN 13)
> > Easy					94.44%				100%
> > Average				72.22%				82.41%
> > Difficult				42.59%				44.37%
> > Formidable				25.93%				15.2%
> > Staggering				  5.4%				  3.59%
> > Impossible	 			  0.72%				  0.62%
> 
> Pardon this damn Pegasus Mail program.  Somehow, the columns look 
> great when I write a post, then I send it, and it comes out looking 
> like this.
> 
> If you look hard, you can see that the first column is the KBv1.1 
> numbers, and the second column is the KBv2.0 numbers.
> 
> Sorry,
> 
> Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 07:40:27 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Greetings!

The Traveller Chat sessions are better than ever!  We have been 
having some really good sessions, thanks to some very informative 
guest speakers.  I'd like to thank the Doug and Craig Berry for their 
presentations of Planetology 101 and Ecology 101, the last two weeks. 

For everyone requesting archived be made available, I am working on 
editing up all of the classes: QSDS 101, SSDS 101, Planetology 101, 
Ecology 101, and a couple of others, such as the night we discussed 
gaming on IRC and the session on PBeM gaming.  I am hoping that these 
will be up on IG's website, but if not, I have had offers from other 
kind souls in the Traveller universe. <G>

This week's topic:  Economics 101
Speaker:  Archie, aka Nr
Date:  Thursday, March 13, 1997
Time:  7:30pm Central
Place:  IG's IRC Server, www.imperiumgames.com, ports 6665 or 6666

Ok, now you all can email me or the list with whatever it is I got 
wrong this time <G>

I look forward to seeing new faces every week, so I make my usual 
offer:  If you need help getting online with us, please don't 
hesistate to contact me.   

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 09:16:37 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

James Lindsay wrote:

>On Sat, 8 Mar 97 20:30:27 -0600, you wrote:
>
>> I can't argue with you. Your example and description of the StoryTeller=
>=20
>> system does sound like a well thought-out system, and it seems superior=
>=20
>> to Traveller's INT and EDU.
[snippage]
>The system works great, just like Rod explained (adding a skill's
>level with what ever stat most closely represents the way the skill is
>being used).  One problem, however... stats and skills only range from
>1 to 5 in WhiteWolf's Storyteller system (ie: not a lot of room to
>differentiate between characters).

	Yeah... that's one thing that I dislike about it; low resolution.
This is one area where Trav does it better.  At one point I was bashing
around the idea of an alternate version where stats are on a 1-10 scale and
you just roll d20's instead of d10's.

	OTOH, given the frequent use of resisted rolls, i.e. characters
rolling their (stat+skill) die pools against one another, the lack of
resolution might actually speed things up a little by eliminating
rollathons.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:29:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Future swordfighting - at the pylon's edge

In a message dated 97-03-09 01:40:47 EST, you write:

>On Sat, 8 Mar 1997 Neveron@aol.com wrote:
>
>> >        During the late  Renaissance, it was considered a valid, if
>somewhat
>> >risky tactic, to use your left hand to grab your opponent's rapier and
>trap
>> >it. 

My post was not nearly so detailed, the snipet above was from the original
post. I know very little about Renaissance sword fighting. I have lost the
attribution for the orginal. Just making sure credit goes where its due.
dsf/Neveron

Pete-Why is the ship's computer growling?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:29:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: OTT

>Roy, the soy goy toy boidroid.
Titi-boom
LOL
Thank you Mike, for being weird.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:29:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terraforming

Out on the limb. and people will probably do better than me, but here goes-

>    What worlds would be candidates for terraformation?
The best worlds would be thin atmosphere or Ice ball worlds with 1G. As we
have learned here on Terra, it's a lot easier to add to the gases to the
atmosphere than to remove them. Though we seem to be really good at
destroying ozone.

>    What would be required to terraform such worlds?
Time and cheap space flight, orbital labs and reliable robots. Orbital
construction and engineering.

>    What techiques and technologies would be developed/used?
- -Giant space mirrors to focus sunlight to melt polar ice caps. This is easy,
you could build them with Bubble gum and Aqua-net.
- -Ice mining ships to transport huge iceburgs from other planets rings and
drop them on the planet to be terraformed. These could be fairly small but
would need a massive manuver drive. If the iceburg is large enough, it will
collapse from its own weight. Smaller ones would need some help from the
mirrors.
- -Genetically engineered biota. Something like lichen to convert CO2 to
oxygen. Of course, on an airless world, you would have to wait until there
was some sort of atmosphere to convert. If the world has no CO2, then perhaps
a slime mold or paramecium type of bacteria could do the job, but its going
to take a lot of them.
Order of business could be something like-
1.Find world not to far from primary, with thin CO2 atmosphere and ice caps.
2.Build solar mirrors and begin to melt ice caps.
3.Send ships to a nearby ringed planet and move iceburgs to impact orbits.
4.Wait for dust to settle.
5.Continue to wait for dust to settle.
6.Remember what happened to the dinosaurs?
7.Dust settles (hooray)
8.Depending on what is in the air,besides dust, drop the biota. There may be
some standing water, if the iceburg was large enough, but more likely there
will be pockets of atmosphere in low lying areas. 
9.Send down the robots to monitor the biota and replace or reengineer the
ones that aren't working.
10.Wait until there's an atmosphere.
11.Move in.

This is a basic scenario. There may be a layer of permafrost or trapped water
beneath the crust that blows out when it gets warm enough. Or perhaps this
layer could be mined. Remember, this is a planet, and anything can and will
go wrong.
 
>    What time frame are we talking about?
At least decades, more like a century before there's a breathable atmosphere.
Centuries will have to pass before you can vacation there.

> What kind of costs?
This is a government project, not a private contract.Get the figures on
Boston's Big Dig and multiply by 10. Even Ted Kennedy can't raise that kind
of cash.

Kim Stanley Robinson's 'Red Mars' and 'Green Mars' are required reading, as
well as Ben Bova's 'Mars'

Go ahead boys and girls FLAME ME!

dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:58:23 -0700
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Psionics & Special Talents

On Fri, Mar 7/97 Dominic Reynolds wrote

>I would be interested to see what psionic special talents people have come up
>with for use in the Traveller game.

I have posted 5 write-ups which I use in my (non-canon) Terran Stellar
Empire T4 campaign. Be warned: in this setting, psionics play a larger role
than in the Imperial setting; as such, these talents may be rare or
nonexistent, at the Referee's discretion. They are written up at:

www.logicnet.com/tim.smith/home_trv.htm

- ----------
If you're carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders, roll over and
stand up.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 11:45:02 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: Future T4 rulebook

I was reading about the new Deluxe rulebook that is only going to be 
available on the Internet and only in hardback.  My question is what 
is going to be the basic rule book in the future?

The current T4 rulebook?

The current T4 rulebook with typos corrected?

A revised T4 rulebook?

What is the future of Traveller?  A good rulebook is essential for 
the spread of the game.  I have notice a dramatic increased in the 
quality of recent products.  However, without a quality basic 
rulebook the future for T4 is limited.

My recommendation is fix the things that need to be fixed in the 
rules (this mailing list has talked long and hard about them) and 
print them in the Deluxe Hardback, but then print the Deluxe in 
softcover as the new basic rulebook for the masses (positive 
thinking).  If IG doesn't want to call it Deluxe version call it 
Revised or 2nd Edition of Marc Miller's Traveller.

Just thinking about the future.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 23:14:05 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

>(It's a standard of the Heinlein juveniles that 15-year-olds know 
>advanced calc, for example...) 

I just noticed this line.  Please allow me modify it to read..."It's a
standard of Heinlein's 15 year old heroes and heroines to know advanced
calc."  Poddie, et al, aren't your average run of the mill homo
sapiens...they are Homo Heinleinans! ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 97 23:31:29 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

On 03/08/97 at 11:00 PM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:

> I took plenty of classes that I don't remember squat about.
> But I still have my degree, don't I.  So if EDU is absolute, I've
> acquired EDU 9 (or whatever a BS is) whether I can remember it or not.

James, it looks like you're arguing both sides.  ;-> 

First you say, you "don't remember squat", but then "I've acquired EDU 9." 
Well, the way T4 is currently set up, your EDU 9 adds to your skill in,
biology , geology, physics, astronomy, history, socialogy, etc, etc,
etc...about which you say you remember squat. Your Target Number is at
least 9 in all these fields!  Boo! Hiss!

Your degree doesn't mean you *know* anything except how to get a degree. 
You *should* have acquired some skills and knowledges, and we assume you
did when we see your degree, but it doesn't prove you actually did.  There
really are many uncredentialed people with as much (if not more)
skill/knowledge as the credentialed.  

As I see it, if EDU measures anything it must be the ability to do the
things that get you those credentials.  Charitabily, I say that means you
have an increasing capacity to learn and use those skills/knowledges that
have a scholarly basis.

I won't have EDU be a measure of "years of school" in one of my games,
period.  What I *might* do is pull it out of the Attribute pool, make it a
secondary characteristic that measures the number of background skills a PC
begins with.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:37:53 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Modern Shipboard Combat

>Disclaimer:  I am not a Marine, but I have a good friend who is (and
>played one
>in my MT campaign, too).
>
>>   Perhaps one of our resident marines would be kind enough to enlighten
>>   us as to the (unclassified, of course) theory of modern naval
>>   shipboard combat. Thanks in advance!
>
>One word:  shotguns.
>
>  -- Joe

Also pistols for Quarterdeck watches, but the rest primarily carry
shotguns.  In fact you can substitute a shotgun for the pistol as far as
the Quarterdeck watch is concerned.

A word of warning, during a security alert if you hear someone yell get out
of the way, hug the bulkhead.  They are authorized to knock you down with
the butt of the gun, meaning you wake up in sickbay, in trouble for not
getting out of the way (thankfully this never happened to me, but they
about ran me over a time or two).

				Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                      |

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 00:45:45 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?

On 03/08/97 at 11:14 PM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:

> I might be willing to go along with this, Eris, but I have a few
> problems. By reading just your defns, one would have to be level 4 (or at
> least 3) before I'd consider him to be useful.  

[James, the level descriptions I posted are for standard T4 type PC's.  In
my games you'd have to double (roughly) each level to make it fit the
description.]

T4 Level 3's are the mainstay of society.  Level 2's are competent for the
easy and average task, but not who you want for the hard ones.  You'd want
a 4 for *your* doctor, and a 5 for *your* surgery, I suspect.  ;->

> Are you going to book a flight on a starship liner if you knew the
> pilot was only level 2?  Not me.

Me neither!  She might be Level 3 (although 4 is more likely), and there
are probably 2's in the crew that are developing their skills toward 3. 
These are the folks that "sit the chair" during routine flight, and "sit
second" during lifts, landings, and jumps.

> So how do we solve this?  To me, it assumes that characters should have
> several (say 4 or 5) skills were they reach level 3/4. 

Just checked 9 characters currently in my PBEM's for level 3/4's...I had to
do some figuring to bring them down to T4 levels, but one would have 6
(oldest), one had 1 (youngest), the rest had 3 or 4. The character I'm
playing in Paul Walker's game has 2 (Pilot 6 and Astrogation 4).  The way I
run things my player's skill points are actually in the range of 6 to 12
for things at which they are competent.

> That's hard to do unless you allow the player to choose exactly
> which skills he receives.  Then he could pick the same ones again
> and again.  But I personally *like* the randomness element of
> character generation.

I like random selection too, but only for *some* of the skills..some are
required and some are automatic, depending on what career the PC is
pursuing.

I give more Background Skills than T4 allows.  I don't raise EDU in the
Academies/Colleges/Schools, instead the characters get more skills, and
they can select some of those. Nobody takes courses completely at random
while in school...well, almost nobody!  <g>

During the 1st term of a career the PC earns *6* skill increases, but 4 or
5 of them are predetermined for the particular career, the other 1 or 2 are
random.  During the 2nd term there is another suite of 6 skills, usually 3
required skills, rest random.  My reasoning, is that their employer
(service) will require them to learn certain things..consider it basic
training and service schools.  The PC might not be very *good* at all the
"service/career" skills, but they will have had basic training in them.

Third term and on, the number of skills drops to the standard 1/year with
more random selection.  They also get promotion skills, chances at
specialty schools missions, and crosstraining, and random "pick a skill"
chances.  (I'm still *creating* all this, and it's becoming much more like
CT Advanced CharGen only with many more skills. <g>)

See, I already subscribe to your "more skills" theory.  Probably about 1/3
more skill gains for the average PC than in T4 at
Mustering out ages.

Also remember, I'm also using my Aptitude method where you go up in skill
points by from .6 to 3.6 per increase.  You have to because the Target
Numbers are much higher than standard T4 (I'm already using 1/2/3/4/5/6/7d6
difficulty levels).  PC's become competent at TN's of 13 or so, and with an
average Attribute of 8 (roll 3 keep 2) that means they need 5 or 6 skill
points.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1051
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 9 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1052



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's
[TML] KBv2.0 and Spectacular success/failure
Re: Swords On Ship
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Swords aboard Ship
Re: Future T4 rulebook
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Accrete Program
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)
Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?
Re: Swords On Ship
Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?
Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!
Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!
3D clip art for Traveller
Re: Emergency Herald Needed!
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Military Careers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:22:09 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!!!

> Try setting the font options in Pegasus Mail
> to Courier New (if you are using it on a PC Clone).
> Courier New is a fixed width font, where most others
> including the default that most programs use, are 
> variable width.  I used to have this problem myself, 
> and it _really_ bugs me.
> 
> Eric

Thanks, Eric.  Since a couple people have suggested this, I guess 
I'll try it.

Here's a test.

			A			B			C
			123			456			789
			456			456			456
			789			789			789
			147			147			147
			258			258			258	
			369			369			369


Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:15:51 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 09:30 PM 3/8/97 EST, Glenn wrote:

>...Look, 
>e.g., at the rules for college and the academies.  You have to roll for an
increase in 
>education, even though you did all four years.  
>

Actually, T4 says (pg 19, col 2, 2nd para) that "...The graduate also add +1
to his EDU per year for the full term, and ages by the same amount of years.
For example, a college graduate adds +4 to his EDU and ages 4 years..."

No rolls for this.  Getting Honors (and an additional +1 EDU) does require a
roll and getting through college requires rolls, but if one graduates, one
gets the +4 to one's EDU... I agree, though, that EDU should only reflect
education that "stuck"...

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:15:51 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Swords, shields, Gauss guns,and FGMP's

My Iaito (nontempered blade but weighted as katana) weighs 3 lbs 3 oz.
including wooden sheath and cloth sack.  Figure around 3 lbs naked.   - Bill


At 07:48 PM 3/8/97 EST, you wrote:
>>Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:40:14 -0700 (MST)
>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>
>>        There's a lot of misconceptions floating around here. Those old
>>broadswords and two handers, etc, are NOT just giant lumps of cold iron! A
>>survey, for instance, of the known examples of Viking longswords, averages
>>them out to about 3 pounds each, considerably lighter than the cheapo
>>replicas you find all over the place. Also, they were well balanced.
>
>Does anyone know how much a katana or dai-katana typically weighs?
>
>--Glenn
>
>
>
>

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:15:51 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: [TML] KBv2.0 and Spectacular success/failure

The local group's going to try the KBv2.0 out at our next game - it looks
good; let's see how it works!

The group's been wrestling with the critical success/failure issue as well.
We're trying the following:  Using the Auto/2D ... 7D from KBv2.0, the task
fails spectacularly if the number of 6s equals or exceeds the character's
skill level.  This allows a higher skill level to decrease the likelihood of
a spectacular failure - which is counterbalanced by the increasing numbers
of dice thrown in attempting more difficult tasks.

We're still using the stock "minimum possible score with the dice thrown"
rule for spectacular success - it makes such success harder at higher levels
without ever making it impossible.  A character who wants to finesse an easy
task (vs. doing it on autopilot and not rolling) may elect to roll the 2D6
for it to see whether he/she spectacularly succeeds - incurring the chance
to spectacularly fail, too!

Any suggestions on tying skill level to spectacular success?

Tx, Ken!



- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:15:46 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

At 09:55 AM 3/8/97 EST, Michael Barry wrote:
>><cut...>
>	I personally like the idea of automatic shotguns with short
>barrels; say a 25-round drum, full-auto with a barrel about 12" long, and
>you've got one nasty weapon that probably won't blow holes in the hull, and
>due to a minor exploitation of the T4 rules, will do 8 dice to the primary
>target when firing full auto.  Of course, it's not much use against
>BattleDress, but an unarmoured target will be turned into a big puddle of
>strawberry jam...

Didn't the bad guys in Outland use shotguns? I seem to recall that one of
'em got blown through the side of a greenhouse... Anyway, when I saw the
movie, I thought a shotgun'd be an ideal weapon for just these reasons - v.
good against soft, squishy targets and *safe* against ship structures!

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:47:05 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

At 09:37 AM 3/9/97 EST, Harry wrote:

>...This rule just seems to be a convenient way of reducing the deadliness of
>combat.
>I don't thimk this should be done, if the players want to risk combat, thay
>should face ALL of the risks, including a very quick and ignominious (does
>that word exist?) death.

One of my players raised the same point.  John Average has STR, END, and DEX
= 7.  I shoot him from 10 feet away with my cP003.  John may be hurt, but,
without using a called shot or acheiving a spectacular success, there seems
to be no way for me to simply kill, or even knock him out, with a single
bullet.  Assuming all sixes for damage and assuming only 3D are absorbed by
his body (he's naked, you know...), END, STR, and DEX will each only be
driven down to 1...  If not shot again, and quickly, he'll feebly stagger
away from the fight to bandaid himself; he'll be rarin' to go again the next
day!  Because spectacular success often implies the target's head is blown
off, does the chance for that success reflect adequately the likelihood of a
quick-kill? Even a called shot at DM-5 only makes the kill more likely - not
at all certain...

I've wondered abit as well about ammo types, including armor-piercing ammo,
hollow-point bullets, etc., and their relationship to how much damage a
target can absorb.  Comments?

Tx!



- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 15:04:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Swords aboard Ship

	Howdy!

On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Joseph M. Saul wrote:

> Yes and no.  My friend, who was in the Corps after your time, discovered on a
> trip to Somalia (I think) that there's a quaint custom called "Piracy Watch."
> You stand out on the deck in a vest and helmet, carrying a shotgun, and make
> sure the local "pirates" don't board and try to steal crates off your ship.  He
> actually came under fire while doing this -- someone ashore was working a
> machine gun -- but the ship didn't shoot back.  (He kept waiting for the light
> to go on...)  Apparently it happens all the time wherever this was, and
> apparently these loons have actually boarded USN ships and stolen stuff, too.
> 
> I'm not sure where this happened.

	During Vietnam, in the Philippines such "piracy" was a problem.
The tactic was to have a few men with clubs standing at watch.  Also, they
had a large fire-hose available for when a wave of looters would hit the
ship <g>.  hard to reflect that in Traveller... :)

	Later!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:14:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Future T4 rulebook

On Sun, 9 Mar 1997 twolf@unix.tfs.net wrote:

> I was reading about the new Deluxe rulebook that is only going to be 
> available on the Internet and only in hardback.  My question is what 
> is going to be the basic rule book in the future?

As I understand it, what is called "T4 Deluxe" will become the standard 
rulebook for T4.  Those of us who place an advanced order through the 
internet will get it first.  It will be signed and numbered, and the 
print run will just be enough to fill the advanced orders.

Then, at some future time, they'll make another print run (also 
hardbound, but not signed and numbered) and sell them through the 
standard channels.

It'll be the same book.  The difference is that those who pre-order get a 
signed and numbered edition, and get them some time before others will.

So, by the end of this year (dunno when exactly, just saying that as a 
conservative estimate) the "standard" T4 rule book will be what we're 
calling "T4 Deluxe".  

As for what the difference between what we already have and "T4 Deluxe" 
will be, I don't know.  Only Marc knows.  From what we've seen, he's 
apparently revising the task system.  Ummm...any other hints anyone has 
noticed?

Maybe Marc will let us know what he has been doing, sometime soon. :)


> What is the future of Traveller?  A good rulebook is essential for 
> the spread of the game.  I have notice a dramatic increased in the 
> quality of recent products.  However, without a quality basic 
> rulebook the future for T4 is limited.

Absolutely.  The main rulebook is the foundation.  The present T4 
rulebook has some cracks.  "T4 Deluxe" will provide a much better 
foundation, since as someone else said, it will truly be "Marc Miller's 
Traveller."


> My recommendation is fix the things that need to be fixed in the 
> rules (this mailing list has talked long and hard about them) and 
> print them in the Deluxe Hardback, but then print the Deluxe in 
> softcover as the new basic rulebook for the masses (positive 
> thinking).  If IG doesn't want to call it Deluxe version call it 
> Revised or 2nd Edition of Marc Miller's Traveller.

Seems like that's what they're doing.  Except for the part about printing 
it in softbound.  They want the main book - and certain other key books 
along the way, like the Aliens Hardbound volumes - to be done in 
hardbound only.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:32:32 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

At 02:17 PM 3/8/97 -0400, you wrote:

>   I'm tellen ya, just shoot him with a RAM HEAP grenade. He'll be dead,
>   and if you miss, your starship bulkheads will stop the rocket, no
>   problem. RAM HEAP grenades cost, if memory serves, about Cr35 each,
>   they can be launched from ACR's and gauss rifles, or dedicated rocket
>   launchers, which run a few hundred credits. They are available
>   legally on law level 1 or 0 worlds. Any goon with Heavy Weapons skill
>   will have no trouble shooting one at shipboard (point blank!) ranges.

And when the point-defence laser mounted on my BD stops your grenade(s)
after 2 meters of flight, and my point-defence radar immediately give me a
visable flight path back to the launch point, information that the other
three members of my fire team have instant access to, what are you going to
do then?

Also, I've got a sensor suite that will detect your goon either by IR or
contour mapping.. I may fire first with a hand-held gauss machine gun or
plasma weapon!  Not to mention that since I'm already in a sealed
enviroment, I have no problem with punching holes in the hull.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:32:34 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

At 12:33 AM 3/10/97 +1100, Harry wrote:

>Now.. I am not saying this is true, but I am having trouble believing in
>this "blow through" rule, if the round has enough energy and mass, and hits
>in the right place, I can see that it would easily powderise bone and sever
>limbs.
>This rule just seems to be a convenient way of reducing the deadliness of
>combat.
>I don't thimk this should be done, if the players want to risk combat, thay
>should face ALL of the risks, including a very quick and ignominious (does
>that word exist?) death.

In reality, the path a bullet takes throught the body determines how badly
the target is hurt.  A difference in entry a little as 5mm can mean the
difference between sudden death and a "flesh wound" causing lttle more than
pain and inconvience.

Out in the real world, people have taken .45 pistol rounds to the head, at
point-blank range, and walked away.  On the other hand, a LAPD officer once
took a .22 pistol round in the foot, and died of shock within 10 minutes.
Weird things happen when you start throwing bits of lead into human (or
other) bodies.

My fix is that ANY to hit roll that suceeds by 5 is automatically a 2x
damage hit, any that makes it by 9 is automatically a 3x damge.  This
simulates the random chance of putting a round into a vital organ.

Traveller does not have a gritty, realistic combat system.  I prefer it this
way.  For Traveller, I want something that is accurate, yet allows the
characters to stand a good chance of living.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 13:13:44 -0800
From: cwebb@mail.ctainforms.com (Christopher E. Webb)
Subject: Re: Accrete Program

Bruce Johnson:
> Now I gotta go dig up the references, and look at the code to see what's
> going on.

Do any of your references detail moon accretion?  When I downloaded the original
Accrete to tweak it, I noticed the moon construction step was empty -- no moons
constructed.  For that manner, does anyone else out there have any references
they can point me to that detail accretion (including moons) so I can rewrite
my version of the software?

Douglas E. Berry:
> Accrete2 allows you to input the mass and luminosity of the star.. It also
> seems overly fond of type E atmospheres and A hydrographics..  I did an
> entire subsector and came up with two marginally habitle worlds.

My copy of the program has the same problem/feature as the original.  It likes
to build extremely high-pressure worlds.  The only UWP atm code I found to fit
those excessively high pressure was E (from MT's World Builder's book).  The
common A hydrographics is also caused by my computation method for the hyd code:
I'm counting ice as part of the hydrograhpics (should I/shouldn't I?).

The rewrite I've done to it allow you to include mass/luminosity of the primary
and UWP of the main world (so you can build systems that have a habitable
main world).  I'm going to look at the program again and tweak some things on
it this weekend and upload it onto my web page this week.

Christopher E. Webb
cwebb@mail.mscomm.com
http://www.mscomm.com/~cwebb

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:48:57 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)

At 02:41 PM 3/8/97 -0800, Glenn wrote:

>Some traditions, I suspect, have purposes beyond merely being traditions.
Training in 
>cutlass sets the Marine apart -- in his own mind -- from the other services
and from 
>civilians.  In that way it builds morale.  As either Loren or Marc pointed
out in an 
>editorial in JTAS some years ago (I'll get the citation if you want it):
The U.S. army 
>still gives bayonet training, and the bayonet hasn't had serious military
application 
>since WWI.  Nevertheless, the physical and mental training associated with
the weapon 
>build individual and group morale.  

Ah, yes.  Bayonet training.  I was in the infantry, and well remember the
bayonet.  All two days of it.  After running the bayonet course at Ft.
Benning, I was never even issued one again for field problems in my regular
units.  I would doubt that I even have Spear-0.  The whole point of the
training was to instill a killer instinct in us, and to give the Drill
Sergeants a good laugh during pugil stick competition as we beat each other
into camoflagued pulp.

>Is the blade now -- and will it be in the future -- the best tradition to
achieve morale 
>objectives?  Maybe, or maybe not. 

For the Imperial Marines, I think this function would be replaced by jump
training.  In today's US Army, airborne training is seen as more of a morale
booster than a serious military activity (unless you plan on going Ranger or
Special forces.)  For the IM, being jump trained is the mark of distiction
over the "mud-huggers" of the various planetary armies.  Imagine the pride
and elation felt by the Marine trainee after her first sucessful jump,
knowing that she has done something that most people will never do, and many
people couldn't.  That's where the Marine pride and esprit d'corps is going
to come from.  IMNSHO.

The Marine Cutlass might be taken up asa hobby, by some, but outside
ceremonial use, I see no realistic place for it in a TL12 military force.

(Side note and plug:  If you want to see military discipline at it's best,
and you're ever in Washington D.C., go see the USMC Silent Drill Team.
These guys are unreal.)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 13:56:26 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?

 
> T4 Level 3's are the mainstay of society.  Level 2's are competent for the
> easy and average task, but not who you want for the hard ones.  You'd want
> a 4 for *your* doctor, and a 5 for *your* surgery, I suspect.  ;->

Again, I think that (aside from the fact that surgery isn't additive
on medicine, it's really different in a lot of ways) the trick is to
write the tasks themselves better.  Base the Difficulty Levels of
your skills on the task at hand, and use some minimum skill as a
baseline.  Then up the diff-level for folks with lower skills, not
just adjust the target number.
 
This is the key, IMO.  If a task is rated as Easy for some reason,
apparently it is Easy for all people with any skill at all, all that
differs is the target number.  Bzzzzt.  Wrong answer.  If it's Easy
for the Skill 4 guy that Task, not just the target number should
chnage.  So the skill 1 guy doesn't face an Easy task, he faces a
Formidable Task.

continuously harping away one this, Merrick :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 16:29:39 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

>    So, the sailors liked billies, eh?  Interesting...  That should give
>    the cutlass fans among us some fuel for their fires.  I'm both
>    surprised and intrigued.

In reality, the Navy held the upper hand for many reasons.  They knew
the ship and could flank the Marines (a large ship is a maze).  The
clubs were preferred(not hitting friendly troops, etc...) but I think
that the best reason was that the Navy could beat up on the Marines;-).
If we had been using real bullets, they probably would have gone with
shotguns & pistols.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 13:15:52 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What does "skill level 1" mean?

For a humorous look at this discussion go to:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/housrule.html

The relevant section is about half-way down the page, enjoy!

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 13:15:55 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!

At 12:01 AM 3/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> On 03/07/97 at 08:16 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:
>> > 	So which position do you want in the pantheon of Traveller Evil
>> > Unlimited? The Four Horsemen are already claimed, but otherwise the
>> > field's fairly wide open ...
>> 
>> Except Chaos...I've got chaos! 
>
>Hey...this is supposed to be "Traveller", not "Warhammer 40,000" !
>

Milieu: 40,000, anyone?

Pestilence, but I'm feeling much better now.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 16:06:05 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!

In article
<3.0.1.32.19970310003520.0068b1cc@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>,
paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au wrote:

> At 20:26 8/03/97 -0600, Eris wrote:
> >>      So which position do you want in the pantheon of Traveller Evil
> >> Unlimited? The Four Horsemen are already claimed, but otherwise the
> >> field's fairly wide open ...
> >
> >Except Chaos...I've got chaos! 
> >
> 
> Damn, if I don't put in a bid soon, the only position left will be Bad Breath.

Well, there's always Grievous Bodily Harm, Cruelty to Animals, Things Not
Working Properly Even After You've Given Them a Really Good Thumping (But
Secretly No Alcolhol Lager) and Really Cool People.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 13:27:18 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: 3D clip art for Traveller

I just got Ray Dream Designer 4.1 for my Mac, and I'm wondering if anyone
has any of the Traveller ships done up as Ray Dream, or 3d-DXF models?  I'm
trying to some space station shots, and it would be nice to have a ship or
two around it.

			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                      |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 22:19:33 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Re: Emergency Herald Needed!

In article <97282030404773@mychelle.other-plane.miamisci.org>, "Glenn M.
Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com> wrote:
> In light of our recent discussion of the uselessness of shields, will
there still be an 
> escutcheon in the 47th century?  Are Imperial arms so heavily influenced
by Solomani 
> tradition that they'll be in the form of a shield?  What was Vilani
heraldry like, and 
> will it have an influence here?

I suspect Vilani heraldry had its origins the same place Solomani heraldry
did - low TL battlefield identification.  Painting a pretty picture on a
shield works well so I suspect the Vilani will have thought of it as well.

That said, they probably have a completely different set of rules regarding
what is acceptable on a coat and what isn't.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 16:56:44 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

>Concerning the effect of hitting a body with a big, fast round...doesn't
>this have to do with hydrostatic shock or something?  The bullet passing
>through at high speed sends off a shockwave in the body..right?=20

I am not a doctor, but I have been around combat more then once.  I do
not buy the blow through rule and don=92t use it.  Here=92s why:=20
1)  Most bullets will start to tumble after impact, unless they go
through something with low mass. This creates more damage.
2)  IF the bullet hits a bone, it has a very good chance to ricochet and
do more damage.  I saw a guy get hit in the left thigh and have the
bullet come out his right shoulder.  Very messy.
3)  Most people just drop when they get hit.  I mean drop.  Not looking
around, not reaching for the chest, etc.  After they figure out what
happens, if they are still alive, then they start to do the dance.=20
4)  A very few will get hit in a non-vital area and not realize it for
awhile.  But that is the exception, and tends to happen with more
civilian type weapons. =20
5)  My combat system uses a combination of weapon damage dice and hit
location damage to figure out what happens.  You can get hit in the
chest with a .22 and not realize it, or you could get a critical wound.
Very random. Just like real life.

I have had to come up with hit location charts and damage for some other
races. But most of the time my standard seems to work fine.

Buy the way, why was anyone hunting rabbits with 7.62???!!! I don=92t hun=
t
any more, but when I did I used a .22.  The kinder and gentler way to
kill:-).

I could just see the to hit location chart now:
1- critical
2- critical
3- critical
etc...=20

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 16:08:04 -0600
From: "Sam D. Thomas" <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

At 12:32 PM 3/9/97 -0800, dberry@mail.hooked.net wrote:
>At 02:17 PM 3/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>   I'm tellen ya, just shoot him with a RAM HEAP grenade. He'll be dead,
>>   and if you miss, your starship bulkheads will stop the rocket, no
>>   problem. RAM HEAP grenades cost, if memory serves, about Cr35 each,
>>   they can be launched from ACR's and gauss rifles, or dedicated rocket
>>   launchers, which run a few hundred credits. They are available
>>   legally on law level 1 or 0 worlds. Any goon with Heavy Weapons skill
>>   will have no trouble shooting one at shipboard (point blank!) ranges.
>
>And when the point-defence laser mounted on my BD stops your grenade(s)
>after 2 meters of flight, and my point-defence radar immediately give me a
>visable flight path back to the launch point, information that the other
>three members of my fire team have instant access to, what are you going to
>do then?
>

Well once you go active, your location would triangulated by passive
sensors, the  disposable remote controlled MRL would lay down a barrage of
multiple warheads, using variable fight surfaces, that overwhelm your PD
laser, and at least give a HE/HEAT headache. By the by, your PD would have
to be active to get a counter battery location, being active constantly
means constantly dead.
 
>Also, I've got a sensor suite that will detect your goon either by IR or
>contour mapping.. I may fire first with a hand-held gauss machine gun or
>plasma weapon!  Not to mention that since I'm already in a sealed
>enviroment, I have no problem with punching holes in the hull.
>

Well using Black Hole and ECM will reduce your resolution of my possible
position by several factors. My "Horned Toad" heavy grav tank is not
impressed by your gauss popgun or your plasma weapon paint remover. But
then you bring out .......

Is not combat in Traveller fun!!!!<G>

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 17:17:39 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Military Careers

>Considering the similarities between the Imperial Marines/Navy and the U=
S ones,
>I decided this was on-topic enough for the list -- how did you wind up s=
erving
in both services, if you don't mind my asking?
>
>  -- Joe

Sure Joe,=20
I don=92t mind. While I was in the Navy (Fighter Weapons Systems, flight
deck troubleshooting, FATC, etc..) I was able to work closely with the
Marines.  (Beirut, Grenada, etc=85)   Impressive, thinks I. Let me look
into the possibilities of joining.  I found out that the Marines are the
only branch that makes EVERYONE go to boot camp.  Most of the branches
will allow some cross over with little difficulty. Some will allow you
to keep your rank, or you may have to take a one step reduction.  The
higher up you go, the more difficult it is.  However, because I had some
skills (can=92t say what ;-)) that the Marines were looking for, The
Commandant Himself (everyone stand up and sing the Marine Hymn) handed
me the waver.  He only took away two of my stripes and made me go to
infantry school and NCO school!

I was told that I was the only active duty Marine that had not gone to
boot camp. Some Marines did not like that very much at the time, but I
feel that I proved to be a outstanding Marine. (Graduated first in both
schools, went to war, etc=85)=20

If you have any more questions, fire=85 err, no=85 ask away.=20

Bob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1052
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 9 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1053



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Modern Shipboard Combat
Re: [T97#1042] The cost of living in T4
Two Corsair ships
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
RE: Adventure plots
Vegans
Psionic abilities
Marines and Long Blades
Re: Setting discussion
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!
House rule: New Sciences skills
vehicle design
re: Terraforming
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
RE: Credit Cards (mine is not longish ;-) )

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 17:31:06 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Modern Shipboard Combat

>A word of warning, during a security alert if you hear someone yell get out
>of the way, hug the bulkhead.  They are authorized to knock you down with
>the butt of the gun, meaning you wake up in sickbay, in trouble for not
>getting out of the way (thankfully this never happened to me, but they
>about ran me over a time or two).
>
>                                Zane

It is better to give then to recieve :-)

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 17:18:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1042] The cost of living in T4

James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> writes...

T::>T4 gives some numbers to go by when determining how much characters should
 ::>pay to maintain a certain style of living (in Cr/month):

T::>Starvation Level
 ::>  a bare minimum of food   60
 ::>  dismal lodging           60
 ::>Subsistance Level
 ::>  reasonable food         120
 ::>  acceptable lodging      180
 ::>Ordinary Level
 ::>  good food               200
 ::>  good lodgin             200
 ::>High Living
 ::>  excellant food          600
 ::>  excellant accomodations 300

T::>In my current PBeM, we had agreed that 1 Cr ~= $1.  But where could you get
 ::>"high living" for $900/month?  Not in this America.  I was trying to decide
 ::>if these numbers were bad or if my ratio was just bad.

 Your ratio is bad.  For most places that I'm aware of, a better
 ratio would be Cr1 = US$2; where the cost of living is high,
 use Cr1 = US$2.50 to US$3; where unusually low, use Cr1=US$1.50
 or Cr1=UK1.

T::>Here are some number from the Central Supply Catalog (CSC):

T::>Desert Clothing - TL 1     100
 ::>Scuba Gear           6     300
 ::>Flex armor           6    1400
 ::>Leather armor        1     500
 ::>backpack             8     200
 ::>binoculars           5     100
 ::>bullhorn             6     120
 ::>flare                8      10
 ::>flashlight           5      30
 ::>machete              4      20
 ::>sleeping bag         5     200

T::>2 sleeping bags = 1 month of ordinary living  :-)

T::>Obviously, these numbers don't jive.  So, I'm throwing out the numbers I
 ::>found in T4 for cost of living.  I'd like to suggest these ranges.  Please
 ::>comment and suggest/correct them.

 No, they look pretty good to me - if you assume that your ratio
 is off.  I'm also assuming that these aren't the "toy" versions
 - i.e., the sleeping bag is durable material, down-filled,
 thermal-lined, suitable for anything from Baffin Island to the
 Sahara; the backpack is tough canvas, not urban-bookbag-easy-rip
 nylon; the desert clothing is rugged and includes good boots,
 possibly steel-toe; and so on. I could see a lot of this stuff
 going higher, even with the higher ratio I gave above.

T::>Monthly Costs

T::>Starvation Level
 ::>  a bare minimum of food   50-150
 ::>  dismal lodging           100-250
 ::>Subsistance Level (I consider myself to be here)
 ::>  reasonable food          150-500
 ::>  acceptable lodging  250-500
 ::>Ordinary Level
 ::>  good food                500-1500
 ::>  good lodging             500-2000
 ::>High Living -
 ::>  excellant food           1500-4000
 ::>  excellant accomodations  2000-5000

T::>4000/month on food is about $45/meal.  I'd say that's high living, but
 ::>believeable.

 I think that that's a little high - I don't think I could eat
 three meals a day that each cost $45.  The most expensive
 breakfast, for example, that I've seen was a prix-fixe brunch
 buffet for only about $25-30 per person.  And that was a _lot_
 of food.  I'm in greater NYC.  Lunch will probably top out at
 the $45/person figure, for a "power lunch" with a business
 associate or a client.  Dinner could go higher, but except at
 the snob-appeal places, probably won't go much above $55/person.

 I'm pretty much at the subsistence level (mostly out of
 choice, rather than necessity), but I rarely cook for myself -
 if I did so more often (like "normal" frequency), I could
 _easily_ cut my food expenses in half.  And I'd be eating
 better, too. I'm just lazy.  A family of four, at ordinary
 level, could spend 800/month on food, including dining out
 (diner, or Giuseppe's, not Lutece or "21") once or twice per
 week.  Again, NYC area figures.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Barbara Walters? Ugh...me prefer deer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:46:12 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Two Corsair ships

Rob Gillingham wrote:

> has anyone desgined or coverted the Pirate Corsair ship.. if so can
> you send it to me or tell me were i can find it..... i don't have the
> T4 ship book is it in there?

	Here is two "Corsair" ships. The first one is based on the
	Corsair found in "MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia", and the
	second one is TL-12 version of the Ueknou-class Vargr corsair.

- ---

Corsair (Starship-V2)

Tons: 440 (Slab USL)	Volume: 6160 m3		Cost: 338.304 MCr
Crew: 23    		High/Mid Pass: 0  	Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 193 tons		Controls: Fib(Bridge)	TL: 12

8 Size				2 Jump Drive (44 tons/Pc Fuel)
6x LasTurr(+2) 1/27-27-18-11	3 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 401.94 MW)
      				3.1 Power Plant (688 MW)
      				95.4 Fuel
      				0 Meson Screen (0 MW)
      				0 Sandcasters (0 cans)
      				0 Nuclear Damper
      				10A 4P 10J Sensors/EM Masking
      				20 Armor, 13 Structure

Crew: 2 Maneuver, 2 Electronics, 1 Engineer, 6 Gunnery, 2 Maintenance,
	8 Ship's Troops, 2 Command
Accom: 13 small staterooms
Average density: 0.87 ton/m3, the ship will float on water.
Notes: Unable to land on planets with atmosphere. No MFD's, 6x 95 MJ
manned laser turret powered to ROF 100.

Corsair: The name "Corsair" generally refers to an armed ship, used by
pirates and privateers to raid merchant spacecraft. Most corsairs are
manufactured from a mixed collection of salvaged components, and new
spare parts are continuously being taken from destroyed ships.

Because of their mixed construction, corsairs are usually unstreamlined,
and can not operate from planets with atmosphere. Thus they may require
either support ships or bases.

A corsair ship is "Partly new, partly old, partly bought, partly
stolen".

- ---	

Vargr Corsair (Starship-V2)

Tons: 400 (Wedge SL)	Volume: 5600 m3		Cost: 348.003 MCr
Crew: 28    		High/Mid Pass: 0  	Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 160 tons		Controls: Fib(Bridge)	TL: 12

8 Size				2 Jump Drive (40 tons/Pc Fuel)
2x LasTurr (+6) 1/30-30-20-11	3 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 361.2 MW)
1x Twin MissTurr (+4) 4/4 	2.7 Power Plant (545 MW)
w/ 14 Guided DetLas 1d3 6G12	85.8 Fuel (Scoop 160, Refine 2.5)
      				0 Meson Screen (0 MW)
      				0 Sandcasters (0 cans)
      				0 Nuclear Damper
      				10A 4P 8J Sensors/EM Masking
      				20 Armor, 12 Structure

Crew: 2 Maneuver, 2 Electronics, 1 Engineer, 4 Gunnery, 1 Maintenance,
	16 Ship's Troops, 2 Command
Accom: 4 large staterooms, 7 small staterooms
Average density: 0.86 ton/m3, the ship will float on water.

The Vargr corsair is an armed vessel equipped with extra accommodations
for ship's troops. This ship is a TL-12 predecessor of the later TL-14
Ueknou-class Vargr corsair.

The 121 MJ remote laser turrets are powered to ROF 100. Lasers can be
fired as two separate MFD-controlled turrets, or as one MFD-controlled
twin battery, while the other MFD is used to control missiles

2x Laser Turret  (+6) 1/30-30-20-11
1x Laser Battery (+7) 1/30-30-20-11

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:25:15 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

Zhodani Agents report Richard Hough said:
>>>>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
>[snip]
>>>... The more a character
>>>learns, the higher his or her EDU should become.
>[snip]
>>...  Education gives you skills, not some
>>undefined "educatedness".  This treatment of education as a stat is poorly
>>concieved, and IMHO severly broken, as it is a poor mapping of human
>>capabilities.
>
>I disagree with these characterizations. My understanding was that all
>attributes were natural, untrained ability, not the amount of training you
>have (that's what skills are). Therefore, the Education attribute is one's
>natural, untrained ability to learn. This is not the same as intelligence;
>someone with a learning disability could still be very intelligent, someone
>with low intelligence but high education would have a knack for doing
>things right even though she or he may be illiterate. Also, combining the
>two would make Intelligence too powerful an attribute and unbalance the
>game.

Well, this would mean that your STR shouldn't go up during character
creation (through, say, weight-training), since that would reflect
TRAINING in the statistic.  Instead, you should gain a 'weigh-trained'
skill or something.

I've always read it that INT reflects your ability to reason, and EDU
reflects how much you know.  I've known lots of people far cleverer than I
who know less, and I've known lots of people who know more than I, but who
aren't as clever.  <Shrug>  I've also known people who know lots who have
little or no formal schooling.

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://danger.home.ml.org/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:22:02 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

Zhodani Agents report James Garriss said:
>At 04:05 PM 3/8/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:53:23 GMT
>>>From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>>
>>>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
>
>It is right.
>
>>That can't be right.  Education level is the amount of schooling that
>sticks.  
>
>I disagree.  I took plenty of classes that I don't remember squat about.
>But I still have my degree, don't I.  So if EDU is absolute, I've acquired
>EDU 9 (or whatever a BS is) whether I can remember it or not.

Um, if you can't remember it, why does it do you any good?  If I have a
piece of paper from a weight training school that says I can lift 400 lbs,
it doesn't mean I have a STR of B.  Only if I actually CAN lift 400 lbs
would it count.

Likewise, having gone through school and gotten a degree only gives you
pts. of EDU if you remember the information that you were taught.

The description of EDU as "Amount of schooling" is a holdover from Classic
Traveller, where the stats weren't being used actively as part of the
skill system.

MegaTraveller, like T4, uses EDU to resolve skill rolls.  It says,
"Education indicates level of accumulated knowledge gained in formal and
informal settings."  Much clearer, IMHO.

My point is this:  If you are trying to solve a tricky Physics problem
(EDU related physics use), having a piece of paper doesn't allow you to
solve that problem more easily.  If the skill system were based on this
idea it would be even more broken than it is :)  On the other hand, if you
have "accumulated knowledge gained in formal and informal settings", you
ought to solve the problem more easily.

It's as simple as that.

>>Look, 
>>e.g., at the rules for college and the academies.  You have to roll for an
>increase in 
>>education, even though you did all four years.  
>
>Uh, check the rules again, friend.  It says "the graduate also add (sic) +1
>to his EDU per year for the full term..."  No rolling required.

Well, this comes from the fact that EDU is being used to track ALL
KNOWLEDGE.  As someone else pointed out, my having a BS in physics
shouldn't help my Law skill roll, but under T4 it does.  EDU reflects not
only your knowledge in specific skill areas, but your overall erudition
and general knowledge.  Someone who has gone to college has (presumeably)
been exposed to a wider range of information (and information sources),
and has (presumeably) been exposed to a learning-positive environment for
several years.  The +1 EDU per year reflects that 'learning-enriched'
environment.

IMHO, of course.

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://danger.home.ml.org/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 15:31:03 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: Adventure plots

SD Mooney wrote:
* I have just re-read the 2300AD Nyotekundu Sourcebook....
* > Anyone else know any easy supplements to plagiarize?
David Smart replied:
Another great 2300AD adventure is "Rotten to the Core."
Do not pass on *any* sci-fi or futuristic military RPG supplements without 
looking through them for usable material/illustrations.  Good places to 
look are discount/half-price bookstores.

So I reply:
Much of the GDW 2300AD stuff is translatable to Traveller(tm). I have used 
ideas from nearly anything I touch including Last Unicorn's Aria(tm) 
fantasy materials.

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end

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 21:48:36 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Vegans

Just make the Vegans Carnivore's Purleeeeze.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 21:48:28 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Psionic abilities

I have a character who is a Doctor  her psionic special ability is what is
currently called "Faith Healing"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 21:48:21 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Marines and Long Blades

Craig, you are almost right,

In Medieval Times you used a Sword and shield and learned to ride your
horse using your legs, later as shields became more obsolete and rapiers
became the prefered weapon, people were not trained to just use the legs to
steer the horse, becouse of this and the national hobby (highway men) the
Brits riding on the left is so that your sword arm (and even later pistol
arm) (since majority of people are right handed) is closest to your
opponant and therefore your intentions can be seen easier (weapon or no
weapon), it also means that if you have to draw your sword and swing at an
opponant you doing it in one motion and not two, also you are not swinging
over the horses head and possibly killing your mount or unbalancing
yourself in the process, you try holding on to your horse with your left
hand and fighting with your right over your left to an attacker on your
left and you will see what i mean. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:39:21 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Setting discussion

paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au wrote:
> 
> At 17:00 8/03/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au wrote:
> >>
> >> This problem was fixed, and later errata released by GDW beefed up plasma
> >> weapons so that if you were hit, you died, and even better, if you were
> >> standing next to someone who got hit, you got hurt all over.
> >>
> >> Harry
> >---I know it was fixed but "too late,too late shall be the cry".By the
> >time it was fixed my group had gone back to MT in disgust and wouldn`t
> >risk TNE again.It was perceived as being flawed and irrepairable.
> >
> >
> Hmmmm, does not bode well for T4. :(
> 
> Harry
- --It`s sad to say,but got that right.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:57:10 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!

The new task system looks good, Kenneth. I'll try it out in my next session
(assuming the players don't lynch me for changing the task system AGAIN).

Personally I think it's not necessary to halve the attribute for untrained
skill use, just using a skill of zero works fine. I think the reason the
attribute was halved in the original T4 task rules was that skills were so
insignificant that reducing the attribute was the only way to reduce a
character's chance of succeeding. This is not true with your task system.
Also, just using a skill of zero means there is no extra advantage in
taking lots of skills at level 1, so the minimaxers will be less likely to
do this.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:57:15 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: House rule: New Sciences skills

Here are some new skills in the Sciences cluster I use in my campaign. Any
comments?

Astronomy (Sciences Cluster) Edu or Int
The study of space phenomena such as stars, planets, asteroids, gas clouds,
and black holes. This skill also covers knowledge of the properties of
J-space, the alternate spacial dimension used for faster-than-light travel.
Edu is the base characteristic for analysing or predicting the behavior of
familiar space events. Int should be used when testing new theories or
unknown phenomena.

Planetology (Sciences Cluster) Edu
This skill replaces Geology in the T4 rules. It is the study of the
physical properties of planets; covering geology, hydrology, atmospherics,
tides, weather, earthquakes, mining, and magnetic fields. It does not cover
life forms or societies on planets. Edu is the base characteristic for
nearly all planetology tasks.

Xenobiology (Sciences Cluster) Edu
The study of alien (to the character) life forms. This skill can be used to
identify the probable dangers, behavior, psychology, and living
requirements of new alien species. Note that gene engineered variants or
offshoots of a species do not count as "alien". Characters attempting to
use Medical, Biology, Psychology, First Aid, or other such skills on an
alien life form use the lower of their Xenobiology and other applied skill.
An intelligent alien using such a skill on a human would also use the lower
of its Xenobiology and applied skill. Edu is the base characteristic for
nearly all Xenobiology tasks.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 19:52:51 -0800
From: Kenji Houston <hokido@primenet.com>
Subject: vehicle design

How does one figure the speed of a grav vehicle for T4? The formula in
the CSC is very confusing.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:14:29 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: re: Terraforming

Neveron@aol.com wrote:

<<- -Ice mining ships to transport huge iceburgs from other planets rings and
drop them on the planet to be terraformed. These could be fairly small but
would need a massive manuver drive. If the iceburg is large enough, it will
collapse from its own weight. Smaller ones would need some help from the
mirrors.>>

Wouldn't a linear accelerator/mass driver like that in the 2300 Nyotekundu
sourcebook be more cost-effective, if slower?

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:14:33 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com> wrote:

<<One of my players raised the same point.  John Average has STR, END, and DEX
= 7.  I shoot him from 10 feet away with my cP003.  John may be hurt, but,
without using a called shot or acheiving a spectacular success, there seems
to be no way for me to simply kill, or even knock him out, with a single
bullet.  Assuming all sixes for damage and assuming only 3D are absorbed by
his body (he's naked, you know...), END, STR, and DEX will each only be
driven down to 1... >>

Assuming that this is the first hit in combat, John Average takes takes 18
points to one stat! This knocks him out. The remaining 11 points are
distributed to the other characteristics as a group of 5, and a group of 6.
So at best JA is at a UPP around 012xxx, at worst 003xxx, unconsious, and
or seriously wounded. (T4 rules p57, rh column, para 4)

Alternatively, a normal hit will dish out 3.5, 3.5, 3.5 points distributed
by the wounded PC's player. Now, this is surviveable. But to have this
distribution, the player has to have survived a hit already. If this is the
case, they are still likely to be KO'd. Else, a first hit will dish out
10.5 points to Mr JA on a single state, and it's UPP 047xxx, and lights out
time.

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:47:02 +1300
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Credit Cards (mine is not longish ;-) )

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2D61.EB2242E0
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We always got local currency (in Imp Creds) by selling the cargo.

Or, in the rare occasions that a surplus was generated we would use =
bearer bonds from a major bank and deposit them into a local banks and =
use their existing debit system.

In fact at one point we had about 10 MCr spread across several worlds =
and spent a few months travelling about to pick it all up again.

- ----------
From: 	Harald Budschedl[SMTP:Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at]
Sent: 	Friday, 7 March 1997 06:02
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Credit Cards (mine is not longish ;-) )

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
>=20
> >From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>=20
> >In my campaigns, a "Credit Card" (actually a debit card in modern
> >terminology, but back in '78 I didn't even have an ATM card yet) was
> >a credit-card-sized computer, with a display, a few buttons, and a =
socket
> >(rather like a modern-day PCMCIA card, but with a display and buttons =
on
> >top).  One of the buttons was actually a fingerprint scanner (in most
> >models).
> >
> >The card itself contained a running balance (which could be displayed =
by
> >touching a button) of the money it carried.  THe money was actually =
"in" the
> >card - but it's the custom to "clear your card" periodically.  If the =
card
> >is lost or stolen the money is gone - BUT you can return to the =
issuing bank
> >and request an audit of the card - this will take a while, but =
eventually
> >you'll get your money back.  The more recently you've "cleared your =
card",
> >the quicker this audit process will be.
>=20
>         In my campaigns, debit cards containing money also play a =
role, but

Well, I play it that way, too. Sure it has disadvantages, but there is
no better way of carrying cash from here to a system 4 parsecs away
instantly.

In my campaigns, I call them credit-crystals ('cause the information is
saved on a holo-crystal). They are in several ways electronically
secured (code, fingerprint a.s.o). They come with an adapter. If
somebody pays you money, he plugs his card in your cardadapter and books
the amount directly on your card.

Disadvantages:
1) You better don't lose your card, or your money is gone.
2) All electronic securities can be cracked.

But I'll take that for comfortability.

CYa
Buddy


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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1053
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 10 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1054



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)
RE: ID4 and Americans
Gearhead a'bornin?
QSDS 1.5 spreadsheet available
Cost of living in T4
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Vegans
Alphabet soup
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!
Re: [TML] KBv2.0 and Spectacular success/failure
Re: Future swordfighting
Re: 3D clip art for Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:01:48 +1300
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Imperial Morality (was Re: Star Wars)

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>As the old sayimg goes,you can`t make an omelette without breaking eggs.

But you can break eggs wothout making an omelette

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:59:09 +1300
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: ID4 and Americans

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"Don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with 
it..."

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"


ROTFLOL :)

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 97 21:07:24 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Gearhead a'bornin?

Greetings All:

As part of my newly redefined (yet again) job, I'm going to have to learn 
Excel. So I went out and picked up the Mac version for home use this 
weekend (I'll have more time at home!). So, in order to make this fun, I 
figure on using it to work on some Traveller items. Anybody have any 
existing spreadsheets they can share or suggestions on what I should try 
to build? Maybe I'll finally join the gearhead discussions!



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to 
vote."

Ambassador Kosh
BABYLON FIVE

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 18:19:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: QSDS 1.5 spreadsheet available

Hi, all,

I'm pleased to announce the early-alpha, use-at-your-own-risk version of
my QSDS spreadsheet.  It's for Microsoft Excel.  You can find it at:

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/qsdss.zip

Questions, comments, and large cash payments are welcome!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 04:26:20 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Cost of living in T4

James Garriss writes:

>T4 gives some numbers to go by when determining how much characters should
>pay to maintain a certain style of living (in Cr/month):
>
Starvation Level 
  a bare minimum of food   60 
  dismal lodging           60
Subsistance Level
  reasonable food         120
  acceptable lodging      180
Ordinary Level
  good food               200
  good lodgin             200
High Living
  excellant food          600
  excellant accomodations 300

>In my current PBeM, we had agreed that 1 Cr ~= $1.  

I believe that that was the original "rate of exchange" 20 years ago. I think
it is closer to 1 Cr = $1.5 to 2 today.

>But where could you get
>"high living" for $900/month?  Not in this America.  I was trying to decide
>if these numbers were bad or if my ratio was just bad.  

That's $900-1200 for food bought over the counter (not at restaurants). Is
that so unreasonable? And a rent of $450-600 per month for a nice place 
to stay. Too little? It seems pretty much right if you convert dollars to
Danish kroner.

>Here are some number from the Central Supply Catalog (CSC):
>
>Desert Clothing - TL 1     100
>Scuba Gear           6     300
>Flex armor           6    1400
>Leather armor        1     500
>backpack             8     200
>binoculars           5     100
>bullhorn             6     120
>flare                8      10
>flashlight           5      30
>machete              4      20
>sleeping bag         5     200
>
>2 sleeping bags = 1 month of ordinary living  :-)
>
>Obviously, these numbers don't jive. 

Unless you insist that all these items must be of the same quality all these
prices are within the proper range of costs in Denmark. Some are high and
some are low, but they are all possible.

>4000/month on food is about $45/meal.  I'd say that's high living, but
>believeable.

Yes, if your idea of high living means that all meals must be taken at fancy
restaurants. 

Andrew Vallance writes:
>I think the best system was in MT, living costs equalled SOC x Cr250
>per month; 

The problem with that is that the steps are all wrong. The difference in
expenses between SOC 1 and SOC 2 are 100% while the difference between SOC
10 and 11 is a mere 10%. IMO the reverse would be more plausible. In the
integrated Traveller economic system that I'm working on I differentiate
between minimum expenses to keep up appearances for a given SS and average
expenses for that SS thus:

SS       Upkeep
     Minimum  Average
 1     150      175 
 2     200      250
 3     250      325 
 4     300      425 
 5     350      525 
 6     400      650
 7     450      775 
 8     500      900
 9     550     1050 
10     600     1200  




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:21:03 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 09:24 PM 3/8/97 -0800, you wrote:
>[snip]
>>>>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
>[snip]
>>>... The more a character
>>>learns, the higher his or her EDU should become.
>[snip]
>>...  Education gives you skills, not some
>>undefined "educatedness".  This treatment of education as a stat is poorly
>>concieved, and IMHO severly broken, as it is a poor mapping of human
>>capabilities.
>
>I disagree with these characterizations. My understanding was that all
>attributes were natural, untrained ability, not the amount of training you
>have (that's what skills are). Therefore, the Education attribute is one's
>natural, untrained ability to learn. 

If EDU measures the amount of schooling one has, then the character's
initial EDU rating would logically measure the amount of schooling he has
had *before* starting a career (or getting advanced education, or whatever).

>This is not the same as intelligence;
>someone with a learning disability could still be very intelligent, someone
>with low intelligence but high education would have a knack for doing
>things right even though she or he may be illiterate. Also, combining the
>two would make Intelligence too powerful an attribute and unbalance the
>game.
>
>I don't think the stat is poorly conceived, unless you think it means how
>much training or 'schooling' you have had. Perhaps it is only poorly named.
>True, the rules do define education as "amount of schooling", but I
>considered this an effect rather than a cause. College increases one's
>Education not by requiring you to memorize stuff, but by exposing you to an
>environment which allows those with a natural love of learning to encounter
>knowledge and experiences which would be very difficult to find anywhere
>else. People without such a love of learning will only learn 'skills'. This
>explains why an 18-year old can roll an 'education' of 12, and why someone
>can go through 6 years of college and graduate school without increasing
>their 'education' at all.

Am I missing something or are people not reading the rules?  You get 1 EDU
for *every* year in college/grad school.  No rolling involved.  It's free.

That's part of what I don't like and why I started this discussion in the
first place.  It's easier to get EDU than you think.  Way too easy in my
opinion.  And EDU affects way too many skills for it to be so free.

> I also think it is plausible that the same
>Education attribute gets added to both History and Robotics tasks; no, you
>don't learn about robotics in history class, but someone with a natural
>love of learning will get more out of their history or robotics class than
>those who only care 'will this be on the exam?'.
>
>I don't agree that the Edu attribute is broken. However, the rules do have
>a few problems; getting +1 Edu practically every 2 years of graduate school
>is unreasonable and unbalances the game. I suggest reducing the target
>number for honors to 5-. The task system published in the rules overvalues
>attributes to such an extent skills are practically worthless. I suggest
>using one of Kenneth Bearden's (sp?) task systems. I don't suggest
>abolishing the Education attribute.
>
>--
>Richard Hough
>rdhough@orca.bc.ca
>
>
>

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:29:18 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 09:28 AM 3/9/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Mar 1997 22:35:16 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> At 03:53 AM 3/8/97 GMT, you wrote:
>> >
>> >T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
>> >
>> >Acknowledging this, EDU cannot be absolute.  The more a character
>> >learns, the higher his or her EDU should become. 
>> 
>> Wait a minute, I missed that.  Given that EDU measures the amount of
>> schooling, why can't it be absolute?
>
>Perhaps I should have used the words "limited to a maximum of 15".
>That would probably explain my point a little better.  Oops :)
>
>According to Traveller's own definition, the more knowledge we
>consume, the higher our education level will become (whether or not it
>takes place in a school shouldn't matter) .  With Anagathics or other
>longevity drugs, it should be easily possible to exceed a maximum EDU
>rating of 15 during his or her lifetime, based on Traveller's own,
>albeit vague, definition.

I see what you're saying.  And here is my answer to this, if one assumes
EDU is absolute:  You can't get any higher than F, but F represents the
highest level piece of paper the Imperium gives out (post-doctoral work, or
whatever they call it).

Make sense?

>> >If a game system uses skills, the inclusion of an EDU statistic should
>> >be used simply to cover skills that aren't covered by the game system,
>> >of for defaulting to skills not posessed by the character.  By very
>> >definition, characters with high skills should also have high EDU,
>> >since EDU defines the character's education (ie: the skills and
>> >knowledge s/he posesses).
>> 
>> I disagree with your definition.  I know plenty of people who have a piece
>> of paper that says they have a college degree who don't have any
>> measureable skills (at least as far as I can tell).  :-)  
>
>I was talking in game terms :)  A Traveller character with a piece of
>paper and no measurable skills would be simply that... a Traveller
>character with a piece of paper and no measurable skills :)

Yeah, but there are lots of places where that piece of paper would get him
a job and allow him to start learning new skills.  And learning those
skills would not mean his EDU would go up.

>They actually might have some skills that could be put on a character
>sheet, however, including Forgery (note from Mommy), Bribery (how much
>for an A?), Computer (simply "click-click-click" change this D- to a
>B+), Intrusion (I think I can fit Cocraine's theory of warp drive
>under my left armpit), etc.
>
>> I still think your EDU measures how much schooling you have, not how many
>> skills you have.
>
>You've lost me.  I've been to school were I learned skills.  Each year
>I progressed, I learned more skills (of course, it was a technical
>institute, but that shouldn't make any difference).

Well, in your case you were adding skill levels.  When you completed your
degree, your EDU went up to reflect the amount of schooling you've had.
That work?

>Perhaps part of the problem defining Education might stem from the
>fact that we normally associate "Knowledge" as academic knowledge with
>little use for "hands-on" experience (ie: Law, History, Meteorology,
>etc.).  We don't attend law school to acquire the _skill_ of Law,
>although we describe a talented lawyer as a "skillful" individual.
>
>"Skills", on the other hand, are easier to define as abilities we
>learn which require us to use that skill in a physical manner (ie:
>driving, climbing, swimming).  We don't take lessons to gain the
>_knowledge_ of swimming, although we can say later that we "know" how
>to swim.
>
>Unfortunately, Traveller defines both skills & knowledge as
>one-in-the-same and puts them all on the Skills Cluster List.
>
>

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:37:40 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 11:31 PM 3/8/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On 03/08/97 at 11:00 PM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:
>
>> I took plenty of classes that I don't remember squat about.
>> But I still have my degree, don't I.  So if EDU is absolute, I've
>> acquired EDU 9 (or whatever a BS is) whether I can remember it or not.
>
>James, it looks like you're arguing both sides.  ;-> 
>
>First you say, you "don't remember squat", but then "I've acquired EDU 9." 
>Well, the way T4 is currently set up, your EDU 9 adds to your skill in,
>biology , geology, physics, astronomy, history, socialogy, etc, etc,
>etc...about which you say you remember squat. Your Target Number is at
>least 9 in all these fields!  Boo! Hiss!

ROFLOL!!!!  Read on.

>Your degree doesn't mean you *know* anything except how to get a degree.

In many fields of learning, this is _exactly_ right.  Once you prove you
can get the piece of paper, the company you go to work for trains you the
way they want you to think.
 
>You *should* have acquired some skills and knowledges, and we assume you
>did when we see your degree, but it doesn't prove you actually did.  There
>really are many uncredentialed people with as much (if not more)
>skill/knowledge as the credentialed.  
>
>As I see it, if EDU measures anything it must be the ability to do the
>things that get you those credentials.  Charitabily, I say that means you
>have an increasing capacity to learn and use those skills/knowledges that
>have a scholarly basis.

In my opinion, getting a degree proves you have learned how to learn.  YOu
may or may not have also acquired several skills.

Given that, it doesn't really bother me that my EDU affects all the
different skill areas you mentioned above.  Why not?  Even if I don't
remember squat about them, I have learned how to learn, so when I need the
skill, I can quickly relearn what I need to know.

So I think EDU does measure the amount of schooling one has.

>I won't have EDU be a measure of "years of school" in one of my games,
>period.  What I *might* do is pull it out of the Attribute pool, make it a
>secondary characteristic that measures the number of background skills a PC
>begins with.
>
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:52:04 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 05:22 PM 3/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Zhodani Agents report James Garriss said:
>>At 04:05 PM 3/8/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>>Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 03:53:23 GMT
>>>>From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>>>
>>>>T4's definition of Education is "...amount of schooling."
>>
>>It is right.
>>
>>>That can't be right.  Education level is the amount of schooling that
>>sticks.  
>>
>>I disagree.  I took plenty of classes that I don't remember squat about.
>>But I still have my degree, don't I.  So if EDU is absolute, I've acquired
>>EDU 9 (or whatever a BS is) whether I can remember it or not.
>
>Um, if you can't remember it, why does it do you any good? 

LOTS of good.  I have a degree in Electrical Engineering.  There are
*hundreds* of jobs that I could get simply by walking in and proving that I
have that piece of paper.  Not all may be EE related and not all may be as
high paying as my current salary, but they are sure out there. 

Heck, my current job is in Systems Engineering.  Did I take any SE classes
as an undergrad?  Nope.  Am I performing systems engineering now?  Yep.
How do you explain that?  1) my piece of paper got me in the front door.
2) college increased my ability to learn, so I can learn new skills that
have _nothing_ to do with my degree.

That make sense?  EDU is absolute.  It measures how much schooling one has.
 And I infer that it proves that someone has learned how to learn.

>My point is this:  If you are trying to solve a tricky Physics problem
>(EDU related physics use), having a piece of paper doesn't allow you to
>solve that problem more easily.  

Sure it does, if you accept my inferance above.  Remember, the other
assumption about getting a degree is that you are now a well-rounded
person, able to learn and understand stuff in lots of different areas (as
opposed to a technical school, where you only learn about one area).



 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 21:20:31 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

Dane "Danger" Johnson writes:

>Well, this would mean that your STR shouldn't go up during character
>creation (through, say, weight-training), since that would reflect
>TRAINING in the statistic.  Instead, you should gain a 'weigh-trained'
>skill or something.

I never claimed Edu, Str, or any other characteristic shouldn't go up
during character generation, only that Edu should not go up automatically
just because you sat in a classroom for a year. On the contrary, I
suggested keeping the roll to increase Edu if you get honors.

Unfortunately, I rolled a Spectacular Failure in pasting my house rules for
advanced education to my mailer and a big chunk of text got deleted. My
apologies, even I couldn't understand what got posted. Basically, my house
rule is to ignore the automatic +1 Edu per year of education and only
increase Edu if you make an Honors roll. There was some blather about
reducing the Honors target number and adding DMs, but this is of less
importance.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:59:54 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Vegans

Colin Hollands writes: 

>Just make the Vegans Carnivore's Purleeeeze.

   Vegans are omnivores.  The original CT write-up indicated this to be
the case, as does the updated and expanded version I did for the New
Era.

Regards,

Harold

P.S.  Vegans were originally desert dwellers that did most of their
hunting and gathering at night.  Because of this, they can see well into
the infrared portion of the spectrum.

- --h

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:09:20 -0500
From: Phil Rhodes <Phillip_Rhodes@baylor.edu>
Subject: Alphabet soup

</lurk>

Well, I've been lurking for about a month now, and really
enjoying the traffic on this list.  I'm one of those new
players y'all were talking about a couple of days ago, and
I have a few questions - mostly relating to alphabet soup.

Basically, I've been playing around with QSDS, SSDS, and 
the VDS in CSC (see what I mean?), and I have a list of 
questions a yard long, but they basically boil down to 
this:  will there be an expanded version of SSDS and VDS
sometime?  I haven't played Traveller since 2 games in 
1980, so I don't have the benefit of the experience most
of you have in knowing exactly what all of those little
gadget in the design sequence do.  What I could use is 
something along the line of GURPS Vehicles, with a little
more explanation.

Also, are there any errata for VDS and SSDS?  I have 
QSDS 1.5.

Well, that's it for now.  Thanks for listening/reading.
- --
- -Phil     (Phillip_Rhodes@baylor.edu)

"Baseball is only dull to those with dull minds." 
	- Red Smith, sportswriter

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 03:04:02 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!

> The new task system looks good, Kenneth. I'll try it out in my next session
> (assuming the players don't lynch me for changing the task system AGAIN).

Wonderful.  Great.  Awesome.  Please let me know what you think.

> Personally I think it's not necessary to halve the attribute for untrained
> skill use, just using a skill of zero works fine.

My thinking has changed to this after recent posts on this matter.  I 
agree.  

But, one thing to think about--there should be a difference between a 
0 level skill and no skill.

Half attribute is too much of a penalty for this system, but there 
should be some sort of bonus to having a 0 level skill, especially if 
it is not a default skill.

This needs some more thought.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 03:04:02 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] KBv2.0 and Spectacular success/failure

> The local group's going to try the KBv2.0 out at our next game - it looks
> good; let's see how it works!

That's absolutely great!  As far as I know, you'll be the first to 
use it in a game.  I haven't even implemented it yet.

I'm anxious to hear how it goes.  Please keep me informed.

> The group's been wrestling with the critical success/failure issue as well.
> We're trying the following:  Using the Auto/2D ... 7D from KBv2.0, the task
> fails spectacularly if the number of 6s equals or exceeds the character's
> skill level.  This allows a higher skill level to decrease the likelihood of
> a spectacular failure - which is counterbalanced by the increasing numbers
> of dice thrown in attempting more difficult tasks.

Very interesting idea.  I'm going to run some numbers on this.

> We're still using the stock "minimum possible score with the dice thrown"
> rule for spectacular success - it makes such success harder at higher levels
> without ever making it impossible.  A character who wants to finesse an easy
> task (vs. doing it on autopilot and not rolling) may elect to roll the 2D6
> for it to see whether he/she spectacularly succeeds - incurring the chance
> to spectacularly fail, too!

I think that you will find that rolling all ones on the number of 
dice used in KBv2.0 will be too hard to achieve.  It doesn't give the 
players a good enough chance (read:  balanced with SF) to make SS.  I 
don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I know that many of 
the SS chances using this system, with the number of dice rolled, is 
less than 1%.  In my book, that's way too hard.

> Any suggestions on tying skill level to spectacular success?

Not yet.  I'm still tinkering.  I'll be addressing that soon.

> Tx, Ken!

Thanks for trying it out.  Let me know how it turns out.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:51:02 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Future swordfighting

lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee) writes
>During the late  Renaissance, it was considered a valid, if somewhat risky
 tactic,
>to use your left hand to grab your opponent's rapier and trap it.

>A gauntlet covered with cerametal plates along the back of the hand and
forearm
>would make for an interesting defensive tool,

Now magnetise it with a short term, high-burst battery powerpack. Suck you
opponent's
sword right out of the air :-)

Even sillier: reverse the polarity and use it to deflect bullets with a
mere hand-gesture.
USE THE FORCE, LUKE!

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:35:09 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: 3D clip art for Traveller

>I just got Ray Dream Designer 4.1 for my Mac, and I'm wondering if anyone
>has any of the Traveller ships done up as Ray Dream, or 3d-DXF models?  I'm
>trying to some space station shots, and it would be nice to have a ship or
>two around it.
>
>                        Zane

I've been usin Strata Studio Pro for some time now but the conversion to
RayDream will have to go through DXF and PICT texture files. Drop me a line
if you're interested and thumbs up for your wise choice of OS.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1054
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 10 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1055



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Swords On Ship
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043
Re: Terraforming
Re: Alien Book
The Fifth Horseman...
Re: Future Swordfighting
Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1051
Animal Damage
IBSA Mailing List
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Traveller on IRC
Re: Future swordfighting
Re: Death of the K'kree
What?
Re: Alien Book (Longish)
Re: Alien Books and NEW: Milieu release schedule
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:37:34 +1000
From: Scott & Isabell <bear.garden@c031.aone.net.au>
Subject: Re: Swords On Ship

Nice list but at number one on the list below I would put Full Auto Shotgun.

At 20:26 8/03/97 +1100, you wrote:
>Swords on spaceships? Here is a list of useful weapons for shipboard & 
>close quarters combat: 
>1. Submachinegun
>2. Shotgun
>3. Bayonet
>4. Pistol
>5. Fragmentation grenade
>6. Nail bomb
><I have omitted an unsubtle hint about SCA swordfighting>
>**************************************************************************
>Michael Barry
>mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
>m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...
>
>"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
>Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
>**************************************************************************
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:39:20 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

>Alternatively, a normal hit will dish out 3.5, 3.5, 3.5 points distributed
>by the wounded PC's player. Now, this is surviveable. But to have this
>distribution, the player has to have survived a hit already. If this is the
>case, they are still likely to be KO'd. Else, a first hit will dish out
>10.5 points to Mr JA on a single state, and it's UPP 047xxx, and lights out
>time.
>
>    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com

If only the first hit in combat is taken on a single stat (typical T4 idiot
rule) why not stab oneself with a very small knife before combat to avoid
this from happening with a lethal round. What is wrong with this picture?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:53:58 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy?

>Is Cleon the good guy or the bad guy?
    The short answer: "Yes".
    It all depends on who you talk to. For his trading company, boy was he
ever a good guy. Garunteed contracts on loads and loads of worlds. For the
trading companies that didn't meet his favour: he was their worst
nightmare. No way will you get a "fair trade" policy with Cleon at the
helm. But then, that's what Pocket Empires is all about...
              Jo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:00:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043

In mail you write:

> And as far as akido against BD augmented senses, reflexes, and
> muscles...heh....heheheheheheh....

Jujitsu or something similar *will* work. The basic idea is to get your
opponents strength and relexes to work *against* him. So, while it may
be harder to do to a person in BD, when you pull it off, the results
will be *spectacular*.

Fatal BD trainee mistake #1:
	Slapping that bug on your forehead....

:-)

(seriously, that sort of thing is why there will probably be interlocks
that require you to be *fully* suited, including helmet, before the
suit goes "live")

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:34:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Terraforming

In mail you write:

>     What worlds would be candidates for terraformation?

They've got to be in the "habitable zone" of the star, or close enough
that you can fudge things by playing with things like greenhouse effect.

>     What would be required to terraform such worlds?

Depends on the world. Also depends on how "permanent" you want the
change to be. For example, at TL12-15 you *could* give Luna a
breathable atmosphere. It'd take a 100 or so years of "soft crashing"
comets onto it, and a lot of biological stuff to change the resulting
atmosphere to a breathable one. But it's *doable*. The trick is that
unless you import a new comet every decade or so, your atmosphere will
slowly go away. Best guess is that without "maintenance" you'd get 3-20
thousand years worth of breathability.

>     What techiques and technologies would be developed/used?

Again, it depends on what is "wrong" with the planet. In some cases,
you just need to seed it with tailored bacteria/algae/etc and wait
until they make the atmosphere breathable.

In other cases, you'll need to "import" atmosphere or water. That takes
a lot of "nudged comets". 

Or you may be fudging with the temperature of the planet by making the
atmosphere or surface more or less aborbent or reflective.

They aren't going to be changing the *mass* of planets at even TL16. So
you are going to be dealing with surface temp, atmospheric mass,
atmospheric composition, and hydro percentage. And there are already
lots of books and articles on how that sort of thing could be done. No
need for new *science*, just engineering.

>     What time frame are we talking about?

Best case would be a planet that was ok except for the lack of native
life. That means the atmosphere would be nitrogen and CO2, with traces
of other things. And the seas would likely be full of organics that
hadn't quite made it to life. So with the right sort of "seeding, you'd
be able to breathe the air in a matter of decades. But it'd take
centuries to get a decent ecology going. Especially since the oxygen in
the air would be reacting with exposed rock and causing some massive
erosion (followed by "tectonic adjustments" ie earthquakes)

Worst case would be an airless, waterless, rock at the edge of the
habitable zone. You'd have to import all the water and air (by crashing
comets onto it). This will take a long time as there's a maximum rate
at which you can bombard it. Any faster and the heat from the impacxts
will drive off gasses faster than you add them. It might only take a
few decades to nudge the right number of comets into the right orbits.
But it'll take centuries for them all to arrive. 

>     What kind of costs?

They be astronomical. Bad pun, but true.

>     So, what questions have I missed?  An important point here to
> consider, the limitations of jump drive.  You can export only so many
> people so far to your frontier, it takes a long time to move any
> serious distance in Traveller.  Therefore the ability to create
> internal frontiers by taking otherwise useless rocks and turning them
> into habitable worlds... would be a very useful thing indeed.

Remember, you *can't* relieve population pressure by exporting people.
But it's good to have a place to send the folks who are "unhappy". So
as you note "frontiers" are good things to have. 

I fully expect some of them to be penal colonies. Dump the prisoners
there with life support and instructions. Send them supplies and
otherwise ignore them. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:45:49 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

- -> - -> VEGANS, VEGANS, VEGANS
- -> - -> We want real rules for Vegans (don't make them some sort of weird
- -> cult)
- -> Seconded! Ad Astra,
- -> 
- ->    Try Traveller Chronicle #11 and #12.  Or just ask me *really* nice.
TC's aren't that widely available over here, and if we find them, 
they are at ridiculous prices, so:
pleasepleaseplease, or: Pretty please, with sugar on top!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:56:16 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: The Fifth Horseman...

	I've just come to the startling theological realization that there
is a Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse.  His name is Really Annoying People
Who Write Posts (Often 1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat
Things Attached To The End.

	I rank him as somewhat worse than War and Pestilence put together,
and suspect that he's related to the twin Sixth and Seventh Horsemen,
Pyramid and Porno Usenet Spam Postings and Spam Mail Bots.

	Of course, given that Really Annoying People Who Write Posts (Often
1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat Things Attached To The
End are the Spawn of Bill Gates, this has interesting implications about
Microsoft, not to mention Bill himself.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:55:18 -0700
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Future Swordfighting

On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 Jo_Grant said:

>lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee) writes
>
>>A gauntlet covered with cerametal plates along the back of the hand and
forearm
>>would make for an interesting defensive tool,
>
>Now magnetise it with a short term, high-burst battery powerpack. Suck you
opponent's
>sword right out of the air :-)
>
>Even sillier: reverse the polarity and use it to deflect bullets with a
mere hand-gesture.
>USE THE FORCE, LUKE!

Slight problem here. First you have to assume the bullets are magnetic (last
I checked, neither lead nor depleted uranium were), second, if you reverse
the polarity on the magnet, the bullets will be drawn toward the south pole
of the magnet rather than the north pole. End result - you're still shot.

- ----------
If you're carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders, roll over and
stand up.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:11:41 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!

Zhodani agents report that Joe Block wrote:

- -> In article
- -> <3.0.1.32.19970310003520.0068b1cc@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>,
- -> paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au wrote:
- -> 
- -> > At 20:26 8/03/97 -0600, Eris wrote:
- -> > >>      So which position do you want in the pantheon of Traveller Evil
- -> > >> Unlimited? The Four Horsemen are already claimed, but otherwise the
- -> > >> field's fairly wide open ...
- -> > >
- -> > >Except Chaos...I've got chaos! 
- -> > >
- -> > 
- -> > Damn, if I don't put in a bid soon, the only position left will be Bad Breath.
- -> 
- -> Well, there's always Grievous Bodily Harm, Cruelty to Animals, Things Not
- -> Working Properly Even After You've Given Them a Really Good Thumping (But
- -> Secretly No Alcolhol Lager) and Really Cool People.
- -> 
ROTFL!
I love Good Omens, too!
(Wasn't there something about hating it to land in a pile of stinking 
fish, as well?)
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:25:29 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1051

>Americans don't realize just *how* seriously the rest of the world
>views soccer.

That's something that was on everyone's mind here in Athens this
last summer with the Olympic Football matches here in town. But 
the teams and their supporters were the friendliest, liveliest bunch 
of folks I've had the pleasure of sharing a downtown victory cele-
bration with! Between watching some fantastic matches and 
partying downtown after, I wish every Olympic football final and
semi-s could be held here.

And of course, watching the US Women's bring home the gold
was a hoot as well <g>.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:18:01 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Animal Damage

Someone recently said that animals got 1D6 of damage per 50lbs ?  or some such??

Well, IIRC, this is a predefined number.  That is when you actually design
the animal, you figure the average weight and roll 1D6 per 50 lbs. (or
whatever the rate is) to get the actual number of damage points available to
the animal.  I don't think I made sense.  Hmmm, maybe an example...

If the rule is 1D6/50 lbs, then what I am saying is that...

If you had an animal that weighed 25 lbs on average, you would roll 1D6
during creation for the damage number for that animal.  If I rolled a 4, the
damage would be 4 that is after 4 hits the animal is dead.  So...

for an animal that weighed 230 lbs on average, I roll 2, 5, 3, 2, 6, for
total damage points of 18.

Does that make sense?  Is that even close to what was being discussed?

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:17:59 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: IBSA Mailing List

Greetings Sapients!

The ISBA is pleased to announce the establishment of a new forum for the
discussion of ISBA related topics.  It has been mentioned before that the
ISBA has grown sufficiently to merrit its own location on the Planetnet.
This area is now available.

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Role-Play off

Well, after waiting, waiting and the gratuitous misunderstanding :), the
ISBA mailing list is ready and waiting.

To Subscribe to the list, send a message to:

     majordomo@goldinc.com

and include in the body of the message the following lines:

     subscribe isba
     end

You should get a welcome message that will describe a little about the ISBA
and the mailing list itself.  To send a message to the list, send to:

     isba@goldinc.com

And if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:58:50 -0600
From: Jeff Schmidt <jschmidt@netco.com>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

Anders Backman said:
>If only the first hit in combat is taken on a single stat (typical T4 idiot
>rule) why not stab oneself with a very small knife before combat to avoid
>this from happening with a lethal round. What is wrong with this picture?
>

GDW adopted a similar thing in all their games (first wound of the day and
you lose your next action), which gave rise to the ".22 alarm clock" in one
Twilight 2000 game I was in (a .22 pistol did just enough damage to annoy
someone, and healing was within a few hours (!)).  No grounds in reality,
mind you, but a humorous twisting of the rules...

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Schmidt                         | NetCo Communications Corporation
software engineer, Mac development   | 333 N. Washington Ave. Ste. 102
(612) 519-0878                       | Minneapolis MN 55401, USA
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 22:41:47 +0800
From: "Benjamin Barton" <aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller on IRC

- ----------
> From: Suzette C. Dollar <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Traveller on IRC
> Date: Sunday, 9 March 1997 15:40
> This week's topic:  Economics 101
> Speaker:  Archie, aka Nr
> Date:  Thursday, March 13, 1997
> Time:  7:30pm Central
> Place:  IG's IRC Server, www.imperiumgames.com, ports 6665 or 6666
What's that in Australian time.. I know that I am 12-14 hours ahead of L.A.
Is there like a 5 hour difference between LA and NY. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:09:13 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Re: Future swordfighting

In article <80256456.0035EA4B.00@mta2.lotus.com>,
Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> >A gauntlet covered with cerametal plates along the back of the hand and
> forearm
> >would make for an interesting defensive tool,
> 
> Now magnetise it with a short term, high-burst battery powerpack. Suck you
> opponent's
> sword right out of the air :-)
> 
> Even sillier: reverse the polarity and use it to deflect bullets with a
> mere hand-gesture.
> USE THE FORCE, LUKE!

Or carry a backpack "Mr. Fusion+" with one lead for your epee and one for
your glove's cerametal plating - brings new meaning to the phrase "electric
scoring" no?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:17:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Death of the K'kree

>>But really, I've been spending some time writing up what the K'kree are up
to in M0 time (I'll post more later, but basically involved in a war with
some trailing Vargr colonies), but I've spent some time trying to figure
out what might have happened to them in post-Virus times as well.

Consider their homogeneity. Of all the major races, the K'kree are the most
homogeneous. From the base castes to the highest steppelords, you would
have nearly a complete void of variation in computer systems. What easier
target would there be for Virus to penetrate and destroy in a rapid and
devastatingly complete fashion.

>From a gaming perspective, this seems to be a very boring end to the
Centaurs, not to mention very cheap. Why throw out all that previously
published background data?

I disagree. The _return_ of this race to the fold, perhaps after a nearly
millenium-long diaspora deep to trailing, would make for an exciting story.
I love the K'kree race as much as anybody. Who wouldn't love such a herd of
furry xenophobes?! <g>  But I'm not willing to hysterically grip my CT
K'kree Alien Module for dear life and let it get in the way of telling a
good story.

Thing of the conflict involved when the K'kree try to move back into their
traditional territory, perhaps colonized now by Vargr and humans. This is
the stuff of campaigns.

All of us are entitled to governing our campaigns and ultimately guiding
history as we please in Traveller, but I guarantee you, if stasis is what
you love, your campaign's gonna get boring right quick!

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:21:37 -0800
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: What?

Great stuff!  So far I've heard all about something called
KBv2.0.  Just two questions.

1)  What is it?

2)  Where can I find it?

Thanks,
Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:27:49 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Alien Book (Longish)

>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
(warning: original post order altered to answer)

1) ALIEN BOOKS LENGTH

>Well, I think a 96-page book split, say, 38-19-19-19 would provide more
>than enough detail, while still allowing room for referee expansions.
>Though, since IG wants to go hardcover, I was thinking of jumping to 128
>pages, which would give you 50-25-25-25, the same level of detail as you
>desire.

        Yup. A Hardcover with one major race and three equally detailed
minor ones seems good, I agree. I didn't notice IG's mind was already made
up on this point, but it seems so... they are announcing the Alien Hardback
1, or something like that.

2) WHAT ALIEN/HUMAN RACES DO WE WANT FOR M:0?

>>         VILANI / Geonee  / Newts / Bonus: Answerin
>
>A bit human-heavy to my mind: "true" aliens probably sell better.
>Re: the Answerin....  So?  They are in Vland sector, which is where much
>of the interaction with the Vargr will take place.  To my mind, we're not
>looking for races totally bounded by the major race in question, but for
>those who would be naturally encountered "en route" to the homespace of
>the major race.
>
>>         VARGR  / Suerrat / Hhkar / Bonus: Brinn
>
>But the Suerrat are nowhere near the Vargr!  They're way down in the
(Snip)
>I have to confess that I hate the Hhkar with a passion.  (And they're not
(Snip)

        Well, what I proposed was to release that two books almost together,
as resource books, but I have to agree that the pairing Vargr/Suerrat is
forced. As for Answerin, they will pair fairly well both with Vilani or
Vargr. So, under my POV, what would be better to release first would be
those two major races (Vilani & Vargr, a-la-DGP <g>), two key minor human
races (Geonee & Suerrat), two minor non-human races (I suggested Hhkar &
Newts, but could be any other), and two "bonuses". The problem is that,
somewhere, the pairings need to be a bit "forced" in order to cover them
all, and the same will happen with the one major+3 minor per book scheme.
The Geonee & the Suerrat would pair very nicely for a M:0 sourcebook, but
this pairing will make any "Alien" book heavily human-oriented.
        
>A thought, while we're on the topic... what if IG published, for the
>Milieu 0 to 200 period, a whole volume focusing purely on human minor
>races?  They seem to be some of the most interesting political forces
>around for the expanding Imperium to meet and understand, have always been
>one of the most fascinating parts of Traveller to me, and are a feature
>Traveller has that most other SFRPG's don't.

        I will applaud this idea. Geonee & Suerrat + some other races
(Answerin, plus others, specially some brand-new one). Although this will
wreak havoc with the "Major race per book" idea, it seems to be a good way
to solve all the pairing problems.
        To summarize, I would personally be happy to see a couple of books
covering Vilani (because they ARE the background in M:0), Vargr (becasue
they are around there), Suerrat (because M:0 is when they are important) and
Geonee (for obvious reasons <g>), with some other races to add value. I like
the idea of a "Major race per book", but would not object (as a special
exception) a "Minor Human Races" book. (In fact, I want to work in it!!! ;-) ).

2) THE ASLAN AND M:200

>>         ASLAN / Ormine / Darrian / Bonus: Zhodia colonies
>
(Snip Ahetaowa explanation)
>As for the
>Darrians, again, they fit much better into a Spinward Marches 1100-era
>setting, so I'd far rather put them with the Zhodani rather than muck
>about with what looks to really be a Milieu-200-centric book.

        That's a point. The truth is, the Aslan book could be made totally
Milieu-specific, and the Darrian just do not fit in the Milieu, but, also,
the Aslan are very important in the Spinward Marches area later, so an Aslan
book with details way after year 200 would be useful for M:1100 players, and
there are lots of them around, right?. If Milieu:200 gets it's own book, it
would be enough for the history and background, so maybe the Aslan book
could be a bit more general.

>And why do you need a write-up on the Zhodia colonies?  If the bulk of the

        Just for fun. ;-). But it was only an idea.

4) OTHERS

>I like many of your other thoughts, though I'd keep the Roth Thokken as a
>side mention in the Vargr volume.  As you can probably tell, I like to get
>the rough outlines of a race published, but leave lots of room for
>mysteries and offshoots that the referee can detail without fear of
>"canon" violations.  You seem to be more of a completist.

        Not really. I just wanted to say which minor/races I thought were
deserving a detailed write-up so far. There would always be little-detailed
races you can develop, but I like the detail of the Traveller universe - you
can call it *canon* - to grow over time. I would like more details on races
we have herad of for years, together with brand-new races with little detail.

>>        The Droyne are scattered all around, so it could be interesting to
(Snip myself)
>This I like too, though I dislike the Primordials almost as much as the
>Hhkar.  But Droyne + other widespread and weird races makes a nice volume.

        Yes. And such a book would be totally Milieu-unspecific.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:50:22 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Alien Books and NEW: Milieu release schedule

From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>

(snip lots of comments on Alien books proposed schedule)

>3. the first 4 books would mainly focus those races where there's
>already a lot of material, which could easily be reprinted.(-)

        Yes, and that's the reason to propose them to be paired, for
publication, with minor, not previously covered in detail, minor races.

- - ->         1. VILANI / Geonee  / Newts / Bonus: Answerin
- - ->         2. VARGR  / Suerrat / Hhkar / Bonus: Brinn
- - ->         3. ASLAN / Ormine / Darrian / Bonus: Zhodia colonies
- - ->         4. SOLOMANI / Vegans / Geneered races/ Bonus: Sworld Worlders
- - ->         5. ZHODANI / Vlazhdumecta / Addaxur / Bonus: Roth Thokken
- - ->         6. DROYNE / Chirpers / Jigd-Il-Jagd / Bonus: Primordials
- - ->
>my fave order would rather be:
>2/5/3/6/4/1
>This order is dictated by the publication order of the milieux and
>the amount of info already available!

        I strongly disagree about placing (1) last. About the milieux order,
the Vilani are the key for M:0 as background, and the Geonee and Suerrat are
very important for this Milieu. Anyway, it seems that IG prefers not to
explicitly cover the Vilani at the point.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:59:39 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!

At 09:01 PM 3/9/97 EST, Richard Hough wrote:

<cut>...
>Personally I think it's not necessary to halve the attribute for untrained
>skill use, just using a skill of zero works fine. I think the reason the
>attribute was halved in the original T4 task rules was that skills were so
>insignificant that reducing the attribute was the only way to reduce a
>character's chance of succeeding. This is not true with your task system.
>Also, just using a skill of zero means there is no extra advantage in
>taking lots of skills at level 1, so the minimaxers will be less likely to
>do this.

I missed the issue of halving one's attribute the first time around but I
agree with Richard - the 3x multiplier for skill weighs heavily enough now
that simply having skill = 0 provides a simple, systematic penalty for
knowing nothing (or little...) 

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:56:39 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 08:39 PM 3/9/97 EST, Dane "Danger" Johnson wrote:

<cut>...
>I've always read it that INT reflects your ability to reason, and EDU
>reflects how much you know.  I've known lots of people far cleverer than I
>who know less, and I've known lots of people who know more than I, but who
>aren't as clever.  <Shrug>  I've also known people who know lots who have
>little or no formal schooling.

That would also explain the character who, by rolling boxcars during
chargen, winds up with an 18-yr old 2ndry school graduate with EDU = C...
I've known a few people who IRL qualify for this, but most (certainly not
2.8% (=1/36) of 'em!) don't have their BAs or BSs by their 18th birthday!
Then again, getting degreed would certainly add SOMEthing to one's EDU, even
if not 4 (for BS/BA).  Possibly 1 for the degree and cast 1D6 <= years spent
before flunking out to get 1 if no degree...  I think advanced education and
honors should retain their adds to EDU - they imply hard, concentrated, work
- - above and beyond the sort of "coasting" many do to get BA/BS...




- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:07:31 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

At 09:09 PM 3/9/97 EST, Dom Mooney wrote:

<cut>...
>Assuming that this is the first hit in combat, John Average takes takes 18
>points to one stat! This knocks him out. The remaining 11 points are
>distributed to the other characteristics as a group of 5, and a group of 6.
>So at best JA is at a UPP around 012xxx, at worst 003xxx, unconsious, and
>or seriously wounded. (T4 rules p57, rh column, para 4)

Arghh!!!  Sometimes one gets so focused on a point one forgets pesky little
things like THE RULES!  Even with average rolls 3D6 = 10.5 which may well
zero out the hit attribute.  From a play point-of-view, I now (humbly) see
no problem, but I still wonder about first-shot out-and-out kills...  

BTW - Citing chapter and verse as Dom did - especially in the case of a
rules brain-fart - is very helpful - Tx!

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1055
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 10 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1056



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Adventure Idea
Re: Death of the K'kree
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Re: Future T4 rulebook
Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Battledress and Bruce Lee
TEST
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Alien Book
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Traveller News Service
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 18:06:07 CET
From: Emilio Desalvo <MC4187@mclink.it>
Subject: Re: Adventure Idea

> South American soccer games have started *wars* (Between Uruguay and
> Paraguay, as I recall). And there have been referees who bought surplus
> military vehicles and parked them on the sidelines as a sort of
> "moveable bunker" to wait out ugly crowds. In one case, the vehicle was
> a *tank*. Crowd gets upset at call, ref dives in and closes the hatch.
> If they calm down he comes out, if they don't, he drives home...
> 
> Americans don't realize just *how* seriously the rest of the world
> views soccer.
You should read about the War of the Cricket Match: the Royal Navy vs. the
Navy of Zanzibar 
If I remember well, the war lasted a whole 12 minutes, after a fleet of RN
Dreadnoughts sunk the only monitor of the ZN, and started shelling the
palace
of the Sultan...
And all this because the fleet headed to Z to see a Cricket match, and the
Z Sultan got nervous...
- --
.   /\ Emilio Desalvo - mc4187@mclink.it - Smiley@popweb.com
   /<>\   +-----------------------------------------------------+
  /____\  | "Ms. Wolversham, you are authorized to return fire!"|

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:30:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Death of the K'kree

On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Chris Griffen wrote:
> Consider their homogeneity. Of all the major races, the K'kree are the most
> homogeneous. From the base castes to the highest steppelords, you would
> have nearly a complete void of variation in computer systems. What easier
> target would there be for Virus to penetrate and destroy in a rapid and
> devastatingly complete fashion.

C.T.'s "Book 8: Robots," however, says that the K'kree make wide use of
"master/slave" robot systems, since this kind of thing goes well with
fondness for herds and hierarchies.  I admit this is really stretching,
but couldn't it be argued that this reflects a general K'kree aptitude for
computer networking?  This MIGHT give them an edge, when the time came to
fight off the Virus.  On the other hand, it's hard to believe the K'kree
had much experience with fighting off Viruses - their computers might be
widely (and elegantly) networked, but also "immunologically inept," which
would make the K'kree EVEN MORE vulnerable to Viral attack.  Yes, K'kree
military systems on the borders (PARTICULARLY the border with the Hiver
Federation) would be "hardened" against mundane viruses, but K'kree
society is pretty placid and law-abiding, and technical knowledge is
probably rigidly controlled (no "schoolboy prank" and "thrill-seeking
hacker" viruses among the K'kree), so the average civilian K'kree system
administrator probably wouldn't recognize a virus (or a Virus) until
Really Bad Things began to happen.

Geez...and to think that I started this message trying to defend the
K'kree!
                                                           - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:59:00 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!

At 05:21 AM 3/10/97 EST, Kenneth wrote:
<cut>...
>But, one thing to think about--there should be a difference between a 
>0 level skill and no skill.
>
>Half attribute is too much of a penalty for this system, but there 
>should be some sort of bonus to having a 0 level skill, especially if 
>it is not a default skill.
>

TNE increased the difficulty level of the task by one if the character had
no applicable skills (in this case, no skill 0 skills, either).  Thoughts
about how well this'd work in T4?

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:12:59 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 11:59 PM 3/9/97 EST, James Garriss wrote:

<cut>...
>Am I missing something or are people not reading the rules?  You get 1 EDU
>for *every* year in college/grad school.  No rolling involved.  It's free.
>
>That's part of what I don't like and why I started this discussion in the
>first place.  It's easier to get EDU than you think.  Way too easy in my
>opinion.  And EDU affects way too many skills for it to be so free.
>

Yr missing nothing!  Roll boxcars during chargen for EDU, get yrself through
college, and you've maxed out EDU at F... 

Any thoughts that this may change in Deluxe T4?  Recent list comments
suggest a need...

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:08:12 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

At 06:23 AM 3/10/97 EST, Anders Backman wrote:
<cut>...
>If only the first hit in combat is taken on a single stat (typical T4 idiot
>rule) why not stab oneself with a very small knife before combat to avoid
>this from happening with a lethal round. What is wrong with this picture?
>
>

I can see an entire warrior-ritual growing from this innocent statement:  

...As John and Marie, locked and loaded, awaiting the inevitable attack by
the Vargr pirates, he turned to her, extending his blood blade - "Will you
shed your blood or shall I?"  As he crossed her palm, drawing the merest
line of blood, together they recited their warrior's creed (insert something
appropriate here...)

I would throw a bowl of Cheetos at whoever tried this stunt in one of MY
games!  

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:49:32 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
>         I've just come to the startling theological realization that there
> is a Fourth [sic] Horseman of the Apocalypse.  His name is Really Annoying People
> Who Write Posts (Often 1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat
> Things Attached To The End.

Ah, yes, the dread RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE.

Long have I loathed him. With awed fear I watch the free space on my
Hard Drive crumble in his wake. The eater of time, forcing hundreds to
delete useless files.

>         I rank him as somewhat worse than War and Pestilence put together,
> and suspect that he's related to the twin Sixth and Seventh Horsemen,
> Pyramid and Porno Usenet Spam Postings and Spam Mail Bots.

I have been fortunate to avoid PAPUSP, but every now and then SPMAB
intrudes in my domain. (Does anyone else get stupid SPURS ticket info
every now and then?) I think the dread RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE is the
worst for me, since my software automatically decodes and downloads the
attachments in a separate folder (thinking them useful -- if I *asked*
for an attachment, they would be).

SPMAB can be instantly deleted and ignored, the dread
RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE, mangler of digests, corruptor of lists, spawn
of windoze, eater of space and time... is far more insidious.

>         Of course, given that Really Annoying People Who Write Posts (Often
> 1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat Things Attached To The
> End are the Spawn of Bill Gates, this has interesting implications about
> Microsoft, not to mention Bill himself.

*SPIT* to even _think_ the name of the Progenitor of dread
RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE causes the bile to rise in my throat. Only by
saying the name backwards three times can I avoid the evil curse...
Setagllib, Setagllib, Setagllib ;-)

I don't know what is worse, the foolish and arrogant programmers who
assume that everyone uses WINMAIL and therefore the default setting
should send the <expletive deleted> encoded <expletive deleted>
winmail.dat files, or the foolish and ingnorant users who aren't
considerate enough to learn how to turn that marvellous option off. 

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:54:44 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Future T4 rulebook

Hi Joe,

JW>On Sun, 9 Mar 1997 Joe wrote:
JW>As I understand it, what is called "T4 Deluxe" will become the standard 
JW>rulebook for T4.  Those of us who place an advanced order through the 
JW>internet will get it first.  It will be signed and numbered, and the 
JW>print run will just be enough to fill the advanced orders.

Well from the reply I got from IG sales it appears that T4 Deluxe may be
numbered but as far as signing goes it won't be Marc's sig you'll see.

/from IG Sales/
LI>You will defiantely get teh discount- but as Marc does not work in this
LI>office it would be hard to get him to sign it.  I am sorry.

Joe, could you clarify with IG if the Deluxe books will be signed or not,
and by who?.  Was the statement in the IG newsletter about signing just an
off the cuff idea or something definate?.  Either someone at IG has got
their wires crossed or Virus is having a laugh.

Mind you, Marc could be sweating cobs over the prospect of signing another
load of books.  There's just enough time to suffer an unfortunate wrist
fracture in a sports injury to get out of that one ;-)

JW>Seems like that's what they're doing.  Except for the part about printing

JW>it in softbound.  They want the main book - and certain other key books 
JW>along the way, like the Aliens Hardbound volumes - to be done in 
JW>hardbound only.

That's good to hear.  Hardback books say quality, they protect the pages
from damage much better, and shouldn't cost a great deal more.  Look at the
hardback Star Wars books, the game might not be to everyone's taste (it is
to mine) but the hardcovers look great and feel substantial.  I remember
that the Traveller Book came with a dust jacket, any chance that IG could
include one with the Deluxe edition.

Jason
- -- 
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you...always"

                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:10:26 -0800
From: cwebb@mail.ctainforms.com (Christopher E. Webb)
Subject: Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!

jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block) wrote:

>
>Well, there's always Grievous Bodily Harm, Cruelty to Animals, Things Not
>Working Properly Even After You've Given Them a Really Good Thumping (But
>Secretly No Alcolhol Lager) and Really Cool People.
>
>

Ah, yes.  _Good Omens_.  That book had me chortling and laughing for days.  I
managed to get one of the authors (Neil Gaiman) to autograph my copy.

Christopher Webb
cwebb@mail.mscomm.com
http://www.mscomm.com/~cwebb

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:08:30 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

>Likewise, having gone through school and gotten a degree only gives you
>pts. of EDU if you remember the information that you were taught.

I like this general view of EDU that seems to be condensing out of this 
discussion. I think we should consider the problem of aging as it relates
to either side, though....Whether you believe that EDU is the ability to 
learn and retain information, or if you believe that it represents years of
education, shouldn't it decrease w/ age just like INT does now? In fact,
given the example that keeps creeping up of "not remembering anything
I was taught in college", shouldn't we start rolling for EDU losses each 
5-year span after getting out of school rather than wait for age 30 or 35? <g>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:10:46 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

Anders wrote:

>
>>Alternatively, a normal hit will dish out 3.5, 3.5, 3.5 points distributed
>>by the wounded PC's player. Now, this is surviveable. But to have this
>>distribution, the player has to have survived a hit already. If this is the
>>case, they are still likely to be KO'd. Else, a first hit will dish out
>>10.5 points to Mr JA on a single state, and it's UPP 047xxx, and lights out
>>time.
>>
>>    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
>
>If only the first hit in combat is taken on a single stat (typical T4 idiot
>rule) why not stab oneself with a very small knife before combat to avoid
>this from happening with a lethal round. What is wrong with this picture?



Favorite T4 Pre-Combat activity

Real Men: Weapons check.
Real Roleplayers: Give rousing speech to crew over the intercom about
bravery, valour, and the glory fo the Third Imperium.
Real Loonies: Limber up and a little pepper with their whiffle bats.
Munchkins: stabbing selves in pinkies with their penknives.


     Anyone tried to pull that in *my* game wouldn't pull it off.  Period.

     I AM the Rules.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:30:42 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

>>If only the first hit in combat is taken on a single stat (typical T4 idiot
>rule) why not stab oneself with a very small knife before combat to avoid
>this from happening with a lethal round. What is wrong with this picture?

No referee worth the title would EVER allow this to take place. Stabbing
oine's self with a "very small" knife and taking a high velocity round in the
chest do not compare obviously in damage, sheer physical and mental
shock, blood loss, etc.

Anyone who would allow a rules lawyer in the group to use the letter of the 
rule in this fashion to run roughshod over the spirit of the rule and get 
away with it, isn't in control of his or her game in the first place.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:41:58 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Battledress and Bruce Lee

>Jujitsu or something similar *will* work. The basic idea is to get your
>opponents strength and relexes to work *against* him. So, while it may
>be harder to do to a person in BD, when you pull it off, the results
>will be *spectacular*.

Perhaps if the other person is also in BD, it might work. My conception 
of BD goes "Battle dress registers soft target in vicinity--target acts in 
threatening manner--AP grenades/point-defense laser/what have you 
fires--martial artist goes away" <g>

>Fatal BD trainee mistake #1:
>    Slapping that bug on your forehead....

hehehe... and then when your newly aquired headache makes you go
"DOH!" and slap yourself with your other hand.... <g>

Hmmm.... the use of bugs in combat... reminds me of a point brought up
in the Traveller chat last Thursday about dropping aphids on a planet 
instead of 0.1c rocks.....<g>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:25:38 +1300
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: TEST

Sorry about the binaries that appeared in the digest - I am trying to fix 
that - My apologies to all that may have been inconvenienced - Hopefully it 
will not happen again.

Thanks for your patience

Brody Dunn

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end

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:00:36 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

Paul D. Owensby wrote:
> 
> >Likewise, having gone through school and gotten a degree only gives you
> >pts. of EDU if you remember the information that you were taught.
> 
> I like this general view of EDU that seems to be condensing out of this
> discussion. I think we should consider the problem of aging as it relates
> to either side, though....Whether you believe that EDU is the ability to
> learn and retain information, or if you believe that it represents years of
> education, shouldn't it decrease w/ age just like INT does now? In fact,
> given the example that keeps creeping up of "not remembering anything
> I was taught in college", shouldn't we start rolling for EDU losses each
> 5-year span after getting out of school rather than wait for age 30 or 35? <g>

If we agree that EDU is *just* the ability to learn and retain
information, then 2-3 year olds would be the "peak" and it's all
downhill from there. Start rolling those EDU losses 5 years after
*birth*. ;-)

If EDU is a mix of "the ability to learn" and "the stuff learned", as
one ages the ability to learn diminishes, and the stuff learned
(hopefully) increases. eg. "You learn something new every day." Thus no
need for EDU aging rolls. They cancel each other out. :-)

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:13:27 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

On Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:22:02 -0600 (CST), you wrote:

> My point is this:  If you are trying to solve a tricky Physics problem
> (EDU related physics use), having a piece of paper doesn't allow you to
> solve that problem more easily.  If the skill system were based on this
> idea it would be even more broken than it is :)  On the other hand, if =
you
> have "accumulated knowledge gained in formal and informal settings", =
you
> ought to solve the problem more easily.

[snip]

> Well, this comes from the fact that EDU is being used to track ALL
> KNOWLEDGE.  As someone else pointed out, my having a BS in physics
> shouldn't help my Law skill roll, but under T4 it does.  EDU reflects =
not
> only your knowledge in specific skill areas, but your overall erudition
> and general knowledge.

The problem still being that, as the current Traveller rules go, this
"accumulated knowledge" (ie: EDU) is used as the controlling attribute
for skills such as Physics.  The definitions of the other five (six)
stats are much better defined.

In other words, the role of the Education statistic for skills such as
Physics is far too powerful (based on its definition) than, say, the
Intelligence statistic for a skill such as Investigation.
=20
> Someone who has gone to college has (presumeably)
> been exposed to a wider range of information (and information sources),
> and has (presumeably) been exposed to a learning-positive environment =
for
> several years.  The +1 EDU per year reflects that 'learning-enriched'
> environment.

Actually, I disagree with this statement (oddly :)  I tend to believe
that every individual is exposed to the same "amount" of information
perceived through their senses over their lifetimes as anyone else.
We can break down this knowledge into to major categories: useful
knowledge (practical knowledge taught in schools or viewed watching
Bill Nye) and useless knowledge (eg: David Letterman's "Stupid Human
Tricks").  It is all knowledge, albeit, most of it Cliff Claven-style
trivia, but it is still knowledge, nonetheless :)

HOW we chose WHAT we learn... now that could be considered EDUcation.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:35:23 -0800
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

>- - ->         1. VILANI / Geonee / Newts / Bonus: Answerin

     I think this would be a great place to add the Ael Yael.  I know 
I've been pushing for this, but they are my favortie aliens and they are 
most definetly in the correct area for a M:0 book.
     I also agree with Carlos that the Vilani boo really should be the 
first to be published.  After all, they ARE the early Third Imperium.
     BTW.... whats a Suerrat?  I've seen the picture in 
Solomani/Aslan, but thats all I know of them.

Shade
- -- 
"*#%& the censors!!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:13:29 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

On Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:29:18 -0500, you wrote:

> I see what you're saying.  And here is my answer to this, if one =
assumes
> EDU is absolute:  You can't get any higher than F, but F represents the
> highest level piece of paper the Imperium gives out (post-doctoral =
work, or
> whatever they call it).
>=20
> Make sense?

Not really, and here's why.

If we define an EDU rating of 15 (F) as being the equivalent of a
post-doctorate degree, people in the Traveller universe (with access
to longevity drugs) can _easily_ live long enough to acquire
additional post-doctorate degrees in other totally-unrelated fields.
Now the individual has multiple pieces of paper (which we will assume
means that the character DOES possess those skills).  Even without
Anagathics, multiple doctorates are still possible.  What is such a
character's EDU rating now? :)

> >I was talking in game terms :)  A Traveller character with a piece of
> >paper and no measurable skills would be simply that... a Traveller
> >character with a piece of paper and no measurable skills :)
>=20
> Yeah, but there are lots of places where that piece of paper would get =
him
> a job and allow him to start learning new skills.  And learning those
> skills would not mean his EDU would go up.

Not if his/her EDU rating is already max'ed out at 15.  According to
Traveller's definition, the character possesses all of the knowledge
his/her humanoid brain can hold at that point.  Yet, the character is
still allowed to improve his/her skills (partially representing new
knowledge) as well as simply experience life.  Remember how Bud Bundy
coached his sister Kelly for that sports trivia game?  Every sports
fact he managed to cram into her brain meant that some other knowledge
ended up being dislodged (like Al's existence).  As the Traveller
definition of EDU currently stands, we all have the potential to
become Kelly Bundys :)

> >You've lost me.  I've been to school were I learned skills.  Each year
> >I progressed, I learned more skills (of course, it was a technical
> >institute, but that shouldn't make any difference).
>=20
> Well, in your case you were adding skill levels.  When you completed =
your
> degree, your EDU went up to reflect the amount of schooling you've had.
> That work?

While it is true that I learned other things that many would not
consider linked to my chosen career path at that moment of my life,
and that these tidbits of knowledge translate into my EDU stat, I
still don't see how this "definition" becomes the dominating factor in
determining my overall skill rating in "Survey" or "Robotics".

Why isn't EDU (as it is definded) the controlling attribute for
"Mechanics"?  Just because one is an academic course and one is a
trade course shouldn't make a difference (ie: carpenters that spend
two years in school and four-to-six years in their apprenticeship
should, by definition, have high EDU ratings, just like someone that
spent a similar amount of time at a university).  Otherwise, doctors
(with their high medical school EDUs) will always appear more skilled
in their field than an electrician (with the same amount of training)
in his/her field.

My solution: leave EDU "as is" and substitute it for the character's
general knowledge when necessary (ie: anything not listed on his or
her character sheet as a "skill").  It should also be used as an
indicator as to how easily a character learns.  It should not be used
as a controlling attribute for skills (it's definition as either "an
ability to learn" or "accumulated general knowledge" makes it too
powerful a stat to be used as a controlling attribute for skills such
as History, Archaeology, etc.).  Additionally, it should not be handed
out willy-nilly for every few years spent in school.

The only other solution would be to change the definition of Education
to something that would be *as* influential to a character's overall
"Law" skill rating as Intelligence is to that character's "Sensors"
skill rating.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:41:15 -0800
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Traveller News Service

Is the IG website going to start having the TNS from the M:0 period any 
time soon or is that going to be covered in JTAS?

I've heard it was going to be either one and both.  Which is it and when?

Shade

- -- 
"*#%& the censors!!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:38:50 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 02:08 PM 3/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Likewise, having gone through school and gotten a degree only gives you
>>pts. of EDU if you remember the information that you were taught.
>
>I like this general view of EDU that seems to be condensing out of this 
>discussion. I think we should consider the problem of aging as it relates
>to either side, though....Whether you believe that EDU is the ability to 
>learn and retain information, or if you believe that it represents years of
>education, shouldn't it decrease w/ age just like INT does now? 

If you believe it's an ability to retain information, I'd agree.  But if it
measure years of education (as I do), then no.  The number of years that
you've spent in school do not change simply because you're getting older.  :-)

>In fact,
>given the example that keeps creeping up of "not remembering anything
>I was taught in college", shouldn't we start rolling for EDU losses each 
>5-year span after getting out of school rather than wait for age 30 or 35?
<g>
>
>**********************************************************
>  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
> CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
>"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
>
>

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:36:01 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 01:12 PM 3/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 11:59 PM 3/9/97 EST, James Garriss wrote:
>
><cut>...
>>Am I missing something or are people not reading the rules?  You get 1 EDU
>>for *every* year in college/grad school.  No rolling involved.  It's free.
>>
>>That's part of what I don't like and why I started this discussion in the
>>first place.  It's easier to get EDU than you think.  Way too easy in my
>>opinion.  And EDU affects way too many skills for it to be so free.
>>
>
>Yr missing nothing!  Roll boxcars during chargen for EDU, get yrself through
>college, and you've maxed out EDU at F... 
>
>Any thoughts that this may change in Deluxe T4?  Recent list comments
>suggest a need...

Well, I'll forward the change I'm going to use.  I suspect it won't be
particularly popular on this list.  Lots of folks argued that EDU was not
absolute, but no one really was able to convince me otherwise.  

- -----

EDU

Education measure the amount of schooling that one has.  It is not a
measure of the number of skills that one has.  It implies that one
has learned how to learn.

Education is absolute.  Here's that absolute scale:

EDU  Formal Training
- ---  ---------------
5    Junior High School
7    Senior High School
9    Undergraduate
B    Graduate
D    Doctorate
F    Post-doctorate

Whenever a character completes the next level of advanced education,
his EDU is automatically raised to match.  For example, graduating
from graduate school the first time grants a graduate degree and an
EDU of B.  

If a character is generated with an EDU of 9, for example, then that
character will NOT increase his EDU by attending college.

Advanced education also grants skills.  If a character does not
receive as many EDU points as he would under T4 rules, he will get
additional skills.  Characters are also allowed to choose exactly
which skills they receives in college.


 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1056
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 10 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1057



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

First Survey impressions - request for scanned data [LONG]
Economics in T4 [LONG]
Hey Andrew! (was Re: Old foggies quiz)
Q&A with Tim Brown

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:36:12 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: First Survey impressions - request for scanned data [LONG]

I am not quite as vexed as many people on the list are about FS, but I do
have some rather catty comments.  I am going to assume this was a snapshot
of the state of affairs on or about year 0.  For what it is worth, I am
making things in Milieu 0 canon for my game, and am planning on adapting
everything else to fit.  (Good job, Joe, et. al.  While it does not quite
fit the FS map, the reasons for that are fair, and the background is good
grist for the mill.)

1.  Vland has a population of 3000 people?  This is the trading partner
that the new Imperium is so desperate to court?  Perhaps I miscounted, but
Vland has only a small fraction of the industrial output of Sylea, and at
such a lower tech level that it seems to be a "good fit" only for political
reasons.  The new Imperium seems a bit too practical to make that kind of
alliance without good economic reason.

2.  The entire Vilani sphere is very far away from the core of the
Imperium, and it is a hell of a trip for some rather disappointing worlds.
To fix this, boost the populations to something near that of the new
Imperium.  Imagine the worries at working with a world with population very
near your own, with a longer Imperial tradition, but with a tech disadvantage.

3.  I heartily approve of the 3rd Imperium being only 20 member worlds in
Y0.  This is a good size.  I would have liked some other worlds within the
early Empire being potential competition to Sylea - at least one other
world should have an A population, as otherwise, the 30 billion on Sylea
are just overwhelming.

I will be adding Shudusham back into the Imperium, as otherwise, some M0
history makes little sense.

4.  I do like the idea of a game in the "rapid expansion" phase of the
Imperium.  Adds tremendously to the player's desires to move quickly.  My
calculations indicate a double every 25 years works out about right.

5.  It seems that the other Imperial worlds near Sylea are not terribly
impressive - too many of them have tremendously low populations for worlds
that have been part of a federation for up to 650 years.  This is related
to item 3 - what political force generated by any of the other worlds in
the SF could possibly have bothered Sylea.

6.  I am going to have to assume that a fair number of other worlds have
been contacted, and their stats known - if for no other reason than that
the Syleans en route to Vland would have had to stop thirty some odd times
en route.  In order to explain the lack of such contact, I am assuming that
official policy was to pick uninhabited worlds as fueling stops en route,
as the contact was too tenuous to defend easily.  Further, they have been
exploring so far primarily for political reasons.  Only after Y0 did they
really start to explore in earnest for purposes of contacting everyone and
co-opting them.

7.  Substantial trade should occurring across the Imperial boundaries.  I
do not yet have a good idea how much as yet.

Given the bug in the FS data (law=gov), I am going to need to print new
maps anyway.  As long as I am fixing the data, I am going to use the
following rules:

A: No world with a population greater than zero will have a population of
less than ten million, unless it is an active colony, busily dying off, or
has other special circumstances.  Very, very few worlds should be in this
state.

B: In Y0, the map in FS represents those worlds that are "in the Imperium."
 Of the 19 worlds listen in the core sector, about 10 are considered
important, and the other ten are unhappy.  Likewise, only Vland itself has
a defense agreement, with another 5 or so of the 25 listed being considered
part of the defense border, but not really well defended.  Scouts have hit
the borders of Core, but have explored very, very few of the interior
worlds, and the ongoing wars are not helping.  Traders are comfortable with
the Silk Road to Vland and the subsector Sylea is in, but not much beyond.
This discomfort is what Clean wants to change with his new fighter
technology.  Scouts have made many contacts in the Sylea subsector, but
have mostly restricted themselves to observing beyond the borders in the
rest of Core.

C:  By Y20, the Empire has explored every world in the Sylea subsector, has
hit the four border of the Core subsector, and has on the order of 20
worlds in Core, 5 in Vland that it is committed to defending.  It has
roughly 10 more that it claims in Core and 20 more in Vland.  these outer
worlds have occasional fleet presence, but these outer worlds feel
tremendously under-represented.  Scouts have explored a number of worlds in
the surrounding subsectors to Sylea, and have made contact with a fair
number.  Further, traders routinely go along the Silk Road to Vland, and in
each of the subsectors surrounding Sylea, though they only visit a small
fraction of the worlds there.

D: They plan on having roughly three out of sixteen Core subsectors as
loyal members with permanent presence by Y40, as well as the entire 25
worlds known in Vland.  They hope to have roughly two more subsectors that
they claim completely, but which they have not really finished exploring
and making part of the Imperium.

Realistically, they will likely have roughly 35 central worlds scattered
through the three subsectors, and 30 outer worlds that they have contacted
and signed on.  They likely have between 30 and 100 contact missions going
on and perhaps 300 survey missions.

Traders visit the entire Core sector, though they only visit a small
fraction of the worlds there.  They certainly would like to contact every
world in Core by this time, but that target is unrealistic, and will likely
take a while longer.  A quick survey of them all might be possible, if the
heavy increase in Scout funding happens in Y16 like planned.

They are willing to claim the entire Core sector as theirs, and will try to
back the claim up, but they will really only do so in the chosen
subsectors.  I am thinking currently of the ones containing the remnants of
the Interstellar Confederacy and the Chanestin Kingdom.  Given the jump
three tech, they both may have to be moved closer, but I have not had a
chance to really do routes on the maps.

E: Y60 will bring perhaps 65 central worlds, and perhaps 60 more outer
worlds.  Between 60 and 200 contact missions will be taking place in Core,
with the first real expansions from Vland.  The Silk Road will begin to
look more like a main.

E: There is roughly one high pop, high tech world per subsector.  Sylea
wants to court those, but is deathly afraid of them at the same time.  They
would much rather nibble all of the easy worlds that they get for free, and
which would be cowed by a 90KT cruiser than risk serious problems with the
big worlds.  They are aware that the big ones are the only ones that really
matter.

Does anyone have any of the First Survey data scanned yet?  I am already
going to have to fix the law level data, and I would rather not have to
retype it as well.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:36:10 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Economics in T4 [LONG]

I am looking for feedback on the following.  Future versions will go to my
web site, but I wanted to influence the people who I know are working on
such things now.

Yet another economic analysis for T4:  Per capita income, tech level
differences, and implications for fleets.

This one, I am happy enough with that anyone may reproduce it as long as
they let me know how it works out.

First, a few definitions.

What is a credit?

The credit is an imperial currency with a known, given value.  This value
is set by fiat, and is assumed not to vary over the imperium.  Military
pensions are paid in credits, and Imperial taxes are levied in credits.
Though we have no information on the topic, I have assumed that Imperial
taxes were a fraction of GPP, and likely a flat scale.  That later might be
my moneterist tendencies coming out.  If this is the case, then every world
is going to have to have regular conversions from any local currencies to
credits, and I expect a mercantile Empire would prefer payments in minted
on Sylea credits.

This has one obvious implication: on a world with lower production per
capita, people earn fewer credits.  The Imperium, based on the CSC prices,
constant payments, and other things, has made the credit a flat currency
across the various planets.  Assume the people of a given world have more
stuff to sell.  Either they will make more _valuable_ credits, or they will
make a greater number of credits _of the same value_.  TNE, if I recall
correctly, assumed that one needed to convert local to Imperial credits
when one hit the starport.  This makes it easy to understand all of the
price lists which did not change with tech level, but makes for a playing
nightmare.  Before buying anything, one had to convert local money into
Imperial money.

TCS, on the other hand, assumed a GNP valued in standard Imperial credits.
The credit stays flat, and local people are paid in Imperial credits.
Goods will vary in price, as will services.

I have tried both, and discovered that the standard credit made life
easier.  No money conversions on landing, but prices altered according to a
single number listed in the UPP.  (At least, in my UPPs.)  I would usually
try to come up with an expanded UPP listing the market sectors as divided
into Industry, Manufacturing, Agricultural, Resources, and Luxuries.  Each
number ranges from 0 to several hundred percent, and describes what goods
of that type cost relative to Sylea.

Under either system, the amount one has to shift from the listed values can
be worked out on a per-planet basis.

Before tackling those larger issues, lets look at the per capita income of
a person on a planet.  How much money does one person have?

To make life easier, lets start with the reference world.  I am still not
sure whether we would be better off scaling everything to Sylea, or to the
so-called Average world, but if we just come up with raw percentages of
GNP, we should not be too far off.

I intend to divide the world up by Social Standing first.  Other influences
seem to be less important than that.

Lacking anything better, I want to examine a real economy.  Traveller
referees may deviate from this model, but they should likely not deviate
too far from some real world example without good reason.  The data which
follows is derived mainly from the United States 1995 Census.  I am not
claiming any special status for the US, only that the data is easily
available online.  (See
http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/prod/2/pop/p60/p60-193.pdf and the other
documents available on the census department's web site.)

From the above report, we see that in the US, quintiles of income per
household are:
		income/household
top 20		110K
high 20		52K
middle 20	34K
low 20		20K
bottom 20	8K

A different view comes from the incomes at the quintile breakpoints:
A household above	percent of the people earns
20			14K
50			34K
80			65K
95			113K

Table 12, p.48 indicates:
this	percent of the people earn less than
4	5K
12	10K
21	15K
29	20K
37	25K
44	30K
51	35K
57	40K
63	45K
68	50K
76	60K
85	75K
93	100K

A third view comes from the distribution of pre-tax income
If you are in	quintile, you earned this fraction of all earned money
top 20		49
high 20		23
middle 20	15
low 20		9
bottom 20	4

As a rough summary, therefore, we would not be terribly mislead with the
following distribution:  Please note: these are derived from the above, not
generated from the original datasets, thus may have a distinct bias from
data abuse.
A household	percent of the
above		others earns
4		5K
10		8K
12		10K
20		14K
21		15K
29		20K
30		20K
37		25K
44		30K
50		34K
51		35K
57		40K
63		45K
68		50K
70		52K
76		60K
80		65K
85		75K
93		100K
95		113K

Let me digress for a moment.  The above discusses household income.  It is
worth noting that, while the median household income in 1995 was $35K, the
per capita worker income was $26K.  Further, the per capita income was
$17K, as there are a number of people who do not qualify as workers.  While
any of these standards could work, I am going to keep working with
household income, as there is somewhat more information about households
than individual citizens.  Once we get it standardized into percentiles, it
is likely an acceptable approximation to individual income.

For what it is worth, the data is fairly linear up until about the 80th
percentile.  All points are within reasonable error bars up until the 85th
percentile, and it looks nicely asymptotic as it nears a hundred percent.
(I would hope that the data slopes up near the top, as there is no income
level per household on data scaled like this that hits a hundred percent.
There are, after all, five hundred people with fortunes greater than 330
million.)  With only two data points above that, it is hard to draw a
useful conclusion about what the terribly wealthy are doing.  The Mark I
Eyeball says that the 90% number should be something like 80K, instead of
100.  Social engineers claim this is evidence of clear separation of income
classes.  I will use this to justify fiddling above the 85th percentile

I am going to assume that the Traveller Social Standing as generated for a
character is representative of the population at large.  Further, because
of the generation rules, Social Standing does not alter often.  This does
not mean that 3 in 36 people is noble, only that 3 in 36 people spend money
on the same order as knights and barons.

The distribution of population per social standing is:
SS	Partition in 36	Percentile	Median %	Rough US equiv.
2	1		3		2		~4K
3	2		6		6		7K
4	3		8		13		10K
5	4		11		22		15K
6	5		14		35		24K
7	6		17		50		34K
8	5		14		65		46K
9	4		11		78		62K
10	3		8		87		77K
11	2		6		94		100K
12	1		3		98		130K

Neither SS2 nor SS12 corresponds to a sampled income level in the 1995
Census.  To cover that, I assumed that the low end was dropping at roughly
a third per step, while the high end had started to go wildly off the
scale.  Changing either of those numbers to suit the campaign is sensible,
and there are likely better sources of data for these extreme cases.  It
should be noted that at both of these levels of income, there are strong
incentives to misreport income.  It is also likely that social forces
decrease the likelihood of marriage if those proposing it do not make
enough to survive, flattening the curve near SS 1 and SS 2 for family incomes.

Weasel words aside, the household income numbers should not be a bad guide
to how income divides up across social standing levels.

Normalized to the SS7 income, real world numbers should produce something
like:
SS	Income as compared to SS for an industrial TL8 nation
2	12%
3	21%
4	29%
5	44%
6	70%
7	100%
8	135%
9	182%
10	226%
11	294%
12	382%

At this point, if we create a conversion for Sylean SS7 to 1995 America, we
can likely compute the appropriate income levels for the reasonable social
standings.  It is quite possible that Traveller has a flatter income model,
or a broader one, than the USA in 1995.  Sylea is in the midst of a boom,
while 1995 America still had some trouble spots from the recent recession.

An alternative version derived from European numbers in the days of feudal
aristocracy with a decent middle class indicate:
SS	Income as compared to SS for an industrial feudal nation
2	10%
3	20%
4	30%
5	50%
6	70%
7	100%
8	135%
9	180%
10	245%
11	330%
12	450%

The primary difference comes from the strength of the middle class.  In
feudal europe prior to the significant urbanization and rise of the middle
class, the numbers look very, very different.  By some estimates, a single
knight required the output of roughly a hundred peasants.  Further,
peasants were roughly 95-99% of the population.  This indicates income
tiers roughly like
SS	Income as compared to SS for an agrarian feudal nation.
2	50%
3	55%
4	65%
5	75%
6	85%
7	100%
8	115%
9	130%
10	150%
11	1000%
12	10000%

Of these various models, the Imperium is closest to the present day US,
arguably with an added boost at the highest social standings.

Many functionaries in the Imperium of executive levels have added social
standing.  This might explain the larger than expected number of people who
have been knighted in the Third Imperium.

Digression on the number of nobles needed in the Imperium:

It is worth noting that in the present day U.K., (according to a UK
almanack), there are approximately a few thousand nobles out of several
million residents.  Fiddling with the numbers a bit, and correcting for the
number of nobles required under a system that uses them at executive levels
leads to an estimate of between a hundredth of a percent and three tenths
of a percent of the population should hold noble rank of some kind.  By far
the vast majority are going to be knights and barons.

This does indicate perhaps a hundred million knights out there.  Are they
_all_ in those nine orders mentioned in the rulebook?  I would be rather
surprised if they had all met the Emperor, or been in any way personally
recognized by him.

This also leads to perhaps a million potential moot members on Sylea alone.

This leads to a clear problem - the above numbers assumed that something
like 6% of the populace has SS11 and SS12.

We could easily fix this problem by either stating that ten percent of the
people in the empire are in some way related to a noble, and thus share
some social status (a clear break with things written in T4), or we state
that characters are cut from "sterner cloth", and thus that the incidence
of high SS is higher among player characters and those they encounter than
in the general populace.

I prefer to assume, breaking canon, that of a family with SS12, there are
likely only a fraction that possess the title, and that the rest share the
lifestyle, but not the noble rank.  If the rank is Baron or above, they
well might hold lesser ranks, but they still live and work at a higher
level.  A player with an SS of 12 is living like a Baron, spending like a
Baron, likely has relatives who are Barons, and is probably kind of annoyed
that they personally have not been ennobled, or if he has, then he is a
Knight.

Further, the many jobs whose holders have the rank because they are in the
job can also use up some of those extra titles.  They might or might not
even make the registry, as the office holds the title, rather than the
individual.  This has serious enough social implications that I have to
think about it.

End of digression

Now, can this be converted easily to credits?

From the T4 rulebook, converted to yearly figures, room and board only, per
person.

Starvation Level: 1200 Cr
Subsistance Level: 3600 Cr
Ordinary Level: 4800 Cr
High Living: 10800 Cr

Working under the assumption that room and board are between half and two
thirds of what someone spends, we get total income levels of

Starvation Level: 1800-2400 Cr
Subsistance Level: 4800-7200 Cr
Ordinary Level: 7200-9600 Cr
High Living: 16200-21600 Cr

SS 2-3 lives near starvation, SS 4-5 at subsistance, 6-8 at ordinary, and
9+ lives at high living if the above numbers are valid.

Having the upper third of the populace at high living seems a bit much to
me, but perhaps is reasonable.  How many members of the modern middle class
have bought imported luxury sedans that they really cannot afford in order
to look higher status than they are?

Second data point:

Star passage: 8000-10000Cr.  By the above numbers, we are talking roughly a
years wages of a middle class family per person each way.  To me, this
seems high.  The image we usually used was of the trip to the border of the
imperium being roughly equivalent to the trip to California before the
trans continental railroad, or the ocean voyage to the new world around
1600-1700.  These all were voyages of months duration, and represented a
complete pulling up of stakes.

By these numbers, I am starting to think that this is the right image for a
single trip of two jumps!

Third data point:
A 20 year pension: 10KCr.  This fits in reasonably well.  Someone who is a
twenty year veteran is likely only 38, and has a high middle class income.
This encourages him/her to support the system rather firmly, without
putting him too far above the rest of the society.

Fourth data point:
Tramp starships exist.  They cost in the millions of credits.  If this is
true, then 7K as the PCGNP seems right out.  Given how much those ships
cost, _nobody_ with even a small interest in such a thing could ever be
poor, or even less than rich.  Alternatively, free traders are rarely going
to be owned by individuals or small groups.  Consider, the Forbes 500
starts at $300 million, so the wealthiest 500 people in America would have
some difficulty affording a yacht, and if they did, then it would represent
a significant fraction of the family wealth.

Fifth data point:
A TAS membership is worth something like 48KCr/year at a minimum, and thus
the lifestyle of the TAS member should be somewhere near that of a wealthy
knight or below average baron.

Expanding from the standard world to the rest of the Imperium.

There are two major hurdles: tech level and trade codes.

What does tech level mean?

In the cargo chapter, we are presented with a conversion of 10% per tech
level.  This has always seemed ridiculously unreasonable, as there are so
many things that one would want to do with higher tech goods that one
should likely pay whatever you have to get them.  I would be willing to
live with this if it were a multiplicative factor, but a simple additive
factor does not fly.

As a simple example, imagine how much PG&E would pay for a 1000MW fusion
reactor that can be fueled for years on a hundred gallon tank of non
radioactive stuff.  We are only tech 8, and that is a tech 12 toy.  This
implies that the tech 8 world would only pay about 5/3 more than the tech
12 people would.  If this is the case, then we have significantly
undervalued technology.

Giving it a fair value would mean that the only trade worth doing is that
between roughly technically compatible neighbors, as a significant tech
difference would make anything the low tech worlds had just not worth the
effort to transport.

I cannot see a tech level difference being worth less than a 20% difference
in general, though I could live with 10%.  Make sure they are multiplied,
though, so that the result is symmetric, in that selling from tech 12 to
11, and then 11 to 10 is pretty much the same as selling from 12 to 10.
Since the tech 10 world would have some trouble scraping the money
together, many merchants will give it a miss.

To figure out the selling price, multiply or divide by (1.1)^difference
depending on which way they are going.

Multiplicative adjustment factors to GNP by tech level:

10%/TL
Difference	Factor
- -4		0.7
- -3		0.75
- -2		0.8
- -1		0.9
0		1
1		1.1
2		1.2
3		1.3
4		1.5
5		1.6
6		1.7
7		1.9
8		2.1

20%/TL
Difference	Factor
- -4		0.5
- -3		0.6
- -2		0.7
- -1		0.8
0		1
1		1.2
2		1.4
3		1.7
4		2.1
5		2.5
6		3.0
7		3.6
8		4.3

I ruled that an industrial trade code was worth two tech levels of
production.  Non industrial was the same in the opposite direction.  The
world is assumed to have a standard level of production at everything else.

Ag/Non Ag has the same effect, but for agricultural goods only.

Rich and poor, I assumed referred to luxuries, which I assumed were only
half as important as industry.  A rich world gets one tech level's worth of
price boost, while a poor one is treated as the next level down.  This fits
with the idea that a trade code represents how the world has divided the
available workers and resources, and how efficient it has been at making
use of them.

Corollaries:
Many worlds have excess labor and productive capacity.  If they spend that
capacity on industry, then they will be an industrial world, while if they
spend it on luxury goods, then they are a rich world.

Worlds that do not have enough workers or resources applied to industry are
considered non industrial.  This might be by choice - on a rich world with
a lot of technology, they might choose to sell much of what they make, and
not produce as much as they could.

Lots of industry usually leads to higher tech.  Once they get higher tech,
they must decide what fraction of their factories to upgrade, and whether
to continue using the excess capacity for industry.  Most societies will,
but if they decide to relax and rest on their laurels, they may well
decided to become a friendly rich world.

It is even possible for them to pauper themselves.  If they have too many
of their technicians working in the steel mills, and not enough in the
consumer electronics, then the world might well become poor.

Thus, going from Sylea to a nearby tech 8 world would have 4 tech levels of
difference, so 10Kcr of goods from there would sell for 14,650.  Were Sylea
rich as well, it would be 16KCr.

A few questions:

Anyone have some idea on just how big the Imperial fleet should be?  Or
what kind of merchant tonnage runs through Sylea?  I note the information
that wildstar did for 1100 on the Missouri web site, but I was not certain
of the model.  TCS?

Starships appear to cost on the order of 0.1-2.0MCr/dT.  Fleets are
maintained by taxes on the governed.  From the looks of things, reasonable
taxes come out to 1-3KCr/person, and so each fifty million credit patrol
boat represents the tax output of 25,000 people.  Clearly, this should be
expressed as maintenance costs, crew costs, and so on, but this is not a
bad ballpark.

Sylea has an annual tax budget of 60TCr by this reckoning, leaving them
with the money for roughly a 20TCr military force.  Likewise, the merchant
tonnage going through should likely be on the same order, though I am
willing to listen to any arguments someone has, especially if they can find
references for cost of fleets vs. cost of merchant tonnage.

Any comments?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:40:31 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Hey Andrew! (was Re: Old foggies quiz)

You posted this quiz, but I haven't seen you respond with all the answers.
Will you, please?

At 09:10 PM 2/28/97 +1300, you wrote:
>>Okay, so having determined the arcane meaning of TSR, who can
>>answer the following?
>
>The answers are
>
>>what does FASA stand for?
>
>Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration
>
>>what does SPI stand for?
>
>Simulations Publications Incorporated.
>
>>What were SPI's RPG's called?
>
>Dragonquest and Universe (the rules were written in the same
>format to the rules for their wargames) and of course: Dallas
>(arguable the strangest RPG ever produced)
>
>>What was GDW noted for before traveller?
>
>I was actually thinking of the Europa series of wargames. Does
>anyone know if it was ever finished? I know four parts were
>published.
>
>>What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?
>
>3D+3, in the very first edition of traveller, most of the
>weapons did xD+x damage. From memory a carbine did 2D+4.
>You added the extra were you saw fit. It made that first
>shot all the more lethal.
>
>>What was the Chaosium's magazine dedicated to RuneQuest?
>
>Wyrms Footnotes
>
>>What does SORAG mean?
>
>Special Operations Research Activities Group
>
>>Who was Gigi D'Arn?
>
>Anonymous (and possible fictional) gossip columist in
>Different Worlds. One of the most "fun" bits to read.
>
>>What issue did JTAS start using colour?
>
>Issue 13
>
>>Who produced C&S?
>
>Fantasy Games Unlimited, it was role playing, but was it
>a game :*)
>
>>What was GDW's modern minatures rules called?
>
>Tacforce, produced with GHQ in 1980. It came in a box with
>3 5.5" x 8.5" rulebooks. If you look at it you can find alot
>of the concepts which would latter appear in Striker. Had one
>of the best lines I've ever read regarding the M728 Combat
>Engineering Vehicle "Manuals stress it is not a tank and is
>not to be used as such; which probably means it will be"
>Command Decision was a set of 2nd World War rules (at least
>initially).
>
>>Anybody able to answer all these questions has spent far too
>>long playing RPG's :*).
>
>Anybody under 30 who could answer 6 of the 11 questions should
>really get out more :*)
>
>  Andrew etc.
>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>
>****************************************************************************
>  "Multiples aren't crazy,
>   Just very very complicated"
>****************************************************************************
>
>

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:18:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Q&A with Tim Brown

On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Jason Davies wrote:

> Well from the reply I got from IG sales it appears that T4 Deluxe may be
> numbered but as far as signing goes it won't be Marc's sig you'll see.

Hmmm.  There seems to be some miscommunication.

I just spoke with Tim, and he said that it is a certainty that all of the 
T4 Deluxe Edition hardbacks which are pre-ordered per IG's instructions 
WILL be gold embossed, numbered, and signed by Marc Miller.  He 
emphasized that Marc is aware and supportive of this, and plans to do 
it.  He also said that as soon as the books come back from the printer, 
he (Tim) will be making the arrangements for that.  So, it is absolutely 
certain that they will be signed, regardless of any miscommunication 
between Tim and the folks at IG/Beverly Hills.

As to time frame, I was told that they're /hoping/ to have them done for 
May, but (and here I quote Tim Brown) "with all the cool things Marc 
wants to do with the book, I can't say for sure that we'll have them out 
in May."  When pressed for further details on what specific "cool things" 
he was referring to, Tim said I'd have to wait until Marc makes an 
announcement about that.

In other news, Emperor's Arsenal and the Referee Screen are coming along 
fine, and Tim said they'll be shipping by the end of this week.  Those 
who ordered direct can expect 'em in their mailboxes in the next week or 
so (depending on where in the world you are<G>).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1057
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 10 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1058



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)
Re: Subject: Heresy
re: resource material
Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"   (Cutlass)
Re: resource fiction
Re: resource fiction
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"   (Cutlass)
Re: What happened....
Re: Alien Book
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)
Re: Terraforming
Suerrat (was Re: Alien Book)
Summary Re: Alien Books (long)
Re: Death of the K'kree
re: Economics...long
Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Death of the K'kree
Re: Military Careers
Accrete 3..
Re: What happened....
Re: The Fifth Horseman...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:38 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)

In-Reply-To: <9703062222.AA33108@st6000.sct.edu>

> * The military salute originated as a way of showing that you were not
> holding a weapon.
> 
> * Shaking hands originated as a way of mutually checking that neither
> party had a dagger strapped to his forearm hidden by his sleeve.

I thought this was another 'I'm not holding a weapon'?

> * Bearing to the right-hand side of the road originated as keeping
> oncoming strangers on your left flank, so as to ward off any attack with
> your shield.  

Bearing to the left brings your sword arm to bear on them, much more useful 
IMHO.

> Bearing in mind the military tendency to maintain traditions beyond any
> rational duration, I felt it was an entirely reasonable premise that
> Sylean Marines (later, Imperial Marines) would know Long Blade skill
> because of their ancient traditions as bodyguards of the nobility.  
> 
> If there just happened to be good, rational reasons for this as well, so
> much the better...  :-)

Swords are good for shredding vac suits, and don't leave holes in the ship.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:36 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Subject: Heresy

In-Reply-To: <199703052138.NAA25845@mom.hooked.net>

<< Doug, who has the best claim to being Pestilence.. a medical file at
Stanford Medical Center that fills two 3" binders! >>

I'm impressed! I thought my 2" file was big...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:38 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: re: resource material

In-Reply-To: <v01510101af44dd2d1742@[194.119.133.36]>

<< 3) Iain Banks - SF books generally - not quite Traveller, but nice. >>

'nice'? *NICE?* Banksie's books (with or without the M) ain't 'nice' in 
the slightest!

Worth reading just for the ship names...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:36 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins

In-Reply-To: <970305205600_686113441@emout03.mail.aol.com>

<< >Favorite Traveller Adventure/Product (CT)
>Loonies: "Chainsaw Combat In Traveller" (Space Gamer article)

I will find this and IT will be good >>

Heh, heh, heh...I have that issue :-)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:37 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"   (Cutlass)

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970306235948.006a0b34@mail01.mel.aone.net.au>

<< But modern armies still teach marching drill don't they? Very few armies
actually march to war in ranks anymore. >>

AIUI it's more about teaching discipline, teamwork, coordination, and 
generally 'thinking like a soldier'.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:37 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: resource fiction

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970305181648.006c9e18@pop.ricochet.net>

<< What other movies, books, etc., do you connect up somehow with 
Traveller? >>

Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books
Iain M Banks' Culture books
Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy
David Drake's SF
_Space: Above & Beyond_
_Appocalypse Now_ (which I based a scenario on)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:37 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: resource fiction

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970305181648.006c9e18@pop.ricochet.net>

<< What other movies, books, etc., do you connect up somehow with 
Traveller? >>

Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books
Iain M Banks' Culture books
Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy
David Drake's SF
_Space: Above & Beyond_
_Appocalypse Now_ (which I based a scenario on)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:36 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"   (Cutlass)

In-Reply-To: <331F3A70.2F32@inreach.com>

<< Perhaps ImpMarine training takes a great deal longer than we Terrans
think of as military training. Consider that Heinlein's Mobile Infantry
Basic took a _year_ to complete, and taught most of the skills you
mention above, as well as _knife-throwing_ and a lot of others. >>

Didn't Basic & Advanced training take 2 years in Bk4?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:38 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: What happened....

In-Reply-To: <331FA1BD.4927@siscom.net>

<<    When we look at the Holocaust (the real one), we see many parallels. 
Many unique ethnic communities (most Jews, some not) across Europe were
uprooted destroyed by the Nazis.  Those individuals that survived the
Death camps were transformed by their experience.  Ultimately many of
the surviving European Jews immigrated to the Holy Land, where they
created a new society which incorporated all their different cultural
backgrounds and influences.  The result was of course Israel. >>

Which is, of course, a place of peace and harmony, living happily 
alongside its neighbours...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:35 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Alien Book

In-Reply-To: <199703070535.XAA19051@xanadu.io.com>

<< I like some of Carlos' thoughts on Alien books.  I'd go for each volume
covering one major race, one minor human race, and two additional (non-
human) minor races.  So, for example.... >>

Excellent idea! Yes, I like this.

Illustrations: I'd like a variation on the ones in AA, placed at the start 
of the section on the race. First page is a full colour pic of a typical 
example of the race, in their normal dress. Second page is divided as 
follows:

aabbcc
aabbcc
aabbcc
dddddd
dddddd
dddddd

a = skeleton (as AA)
b = naked (as AA)
c = human, to compare size
d = 'action picture' (eg a herd of K'kree roaming the plains)

All colour.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:37 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

In-Reply-To: <s31ebfac.051@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>

<< So what it seems has happened to ABD in the CT to T4 transition is that
when an opponent in ABD confronts the characters it's time to holster
those laser rifles and ACRs and head for the hills.  

Now I know there are a lot of options for the crew aboard a ship.  This
scenario is not my point.  I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who sees
this as a huge upgrade in the armor value, and if people have come up
with solutions. >>

It isn't a CT -> T4 transition, it's a CT -> MT -> TNE -> T4 transition. 
The solutions are the same as they've been: don't pick a fight with 
someone in BD unless you're packing serious hardware (RAM grenades or 
fusion guns).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:36 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

In-Reply-To: <9703052122.AA52718@st6000.sct.edu>

<< In T4, mention is made of the nobles' /code duello/.  If a noble were in a
situation where he was incapable of defending himself, he would need the
services of a champion.  Thus, I postulate that the Imperial (nee Sylean)
Marines are the historical descendents of the nobles' /huscarles/, their
fighting men on retainer, and that they have traditionally been used as
champions for indisposed nobles.  This gives an elegant explanation for
the automatic skill Long Blade-1 that is in keeping with the background
presented in T4.  

Rebuttals?  Agreements?  Suggestions? >>

One point: prior to Year 0, there *were* no nobles.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:54:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Terraforming

Quoth Leonard Erickson:
> >     What worlds would be candidates for terraformation?
> 
> They've got to be in the "habitable zone" of the star, or close enough
> that you can fudge things by playing with things like greenhouse effect.

Not necessarily.  If the planet is too close, you could add a sunshield at
the Lagrange point between the planet and star, as Martyn Fogg's Venus
proposal does (it blocks about a quarter of the incident sunlight, I
believe).  The other advantage is that the shield provides a _lot_ of
space for solar panels....

If the planet is too far out, add solettas (reflective mirrors in orbit)
to reflect otherwise "wasted" sunlight onto the surface.  Several Mars
proposals published in JBIS follow this tack.

Again, it depends on what you consider "true" terraforming -- must the
planet itself be maintainable, or can outside elements contribute: sun
shields, solettas, the occasional comet to replenish atmosphere, etc.

We also haven't touched on rotation rate.  Much of the 10,000-year period
Fogg's Venus proposal entails is taken up with "spinning up" the planet
using a planetary-scale network of cables to make it into a giant motor.
It's humorous, though it sounds workable to ignorant ol' me, at least.
But it requires an expenditure of resources, money, and time that is
unlikely for cultures with FTL travel.  Planets that rotate too slow for
sustainable biospheres are likely to be bypassed, I suspect.  Planets that
rotate too fast just get more frequent nightlife.  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:38:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Suerrat (was Re: Alien Book)

Quoth Shade:
> 	BTW.... whats a Suerrat?  I've seen the picture in 
> Solomani/Aslan, but thats all I know of them.

That's close to what the rest of us know too.  :-)  We know from that
picture that they're shortish and furry.  We know from CT Library Data
that they claim "major race" status, but based on expanding from their
home world using STL colony vessels, not (as the Vilani insist is
necessary) using jump drive.  Later (MT? HIWG?) material indicated that
they are at least partially arboreal, have Ilelish as their homeworld, and
lauched a major rebellion against the Imperium (the Ilelish Revolt).  As
punishment, the sector capital was moved to Dlan and the equatorial
jungles of Ilelish itself were nuked into oblivion.  Kinda harsh, but
that's the Imperium for you....  Marc Miller evidently has in mind that
they may be major antagonists to the Imperium in Milieu Zero
(Consolidation Wars, anyone?), though the homeworld data in the
(admittedly buggy) First Survey is kind of disappointing on that hand.

I've been wanting to detail them for a while, somewhat in the style of
Carlos' Geonee.  Anybody else game?  New TML thread for those tired of
task systems?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:32:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Summary Re: Alien Books (long)

So, in an ideal world, we'd get something like the following catalog.
Marc, is this along the lines of what you've been thinking?

Alien Book I: Vargr
	Details on the race plus minor offshoots (Roth Thokken, etc.),
written from a "far-future" (post-1200) vantage point but focusing primary
detail on the Milieu Zero period.  Ensure enough "chrome" gets given that
the Vargr don't come across as simply pooches on their hind legs (even if
they are!).  Additional detail on nearby minor but non-human races: Brinn,
Tahavi, possibly Hhkar (though they don't fit M0), or a new one.  128pp
book, hardcover. 

Alien Book II: The Races of Man
	Another Milieu 0 product.  Discussion of the theory of the
Ancients, overview of Humaniti and homeworlds.  Factors of success in
evolution, survival, galactic politics.  Major Humans' (Vilani, Zhodani,
Solomani) biology, culture, and history.  Lesser but significant detail on
three upper-tier minor races (Syleans, Geonee, Suerrat).  Coverage of a
few more minor and less-widespread minor human races (Darrians, Answerin,
Thaggeshi, Cafadans, Acheron, Floriani, etc.).  Make sure we get some
weird ones to help the book sell on strange biology as well as to pure
cultural nuts.  A nod to Solomani geneering could take a sidebar or two
(Wuans, Imperial Jonkereen, etc.). Basically, aim this book as a must-have
Traveller volume plus a useful resource for anyone in any system who wants
to run an sf campaign involving "aliens" who are really variant humans. 
128 pp, maybe more (192?) if authors, publicists, bean-counters all agree.

Alien Book III: Aslan
	A lead product for 1998/9, supporting Milieu: 200 -- The Aslan
Border Wars.  Narrative viewpoint is debatable -- do we want to include
"the secret" of Aslan "minorship", or leave that for long-term fans?  Even
leaving that aside, point of authorship could range as late as the 1100's,
maybe even touching on the ihatei invasion of the Spinward Marches. 
Again, spruce up the aliens so they are _not_ simply upright lions: 
acknowledge the Turkish source of the race name, dispel any C.S. Lewis
thoughts, and chrome these guys up.  Include sidebars on Aslan-cultural
humans, human-cultural Aslan, Zodia colonies, etc.  Detail nearby minor
races: Virushi, Ahetaowa, Ormine, perhaps a few newcomers.  128pp hardcover.

From here one, since we don't know the Milieu publishing schedule, things
get a bit more complex.  On the other hand, we've already done the
traditional "biggies."  So how about:

Alien Book IV: Wards of the Imperium
	Multiple-milieu support.  Emphasize Droyne (and Chirpers) for
major section, since new game buyers of First Survey will be wondering who
the heck they are.  Fill the rest with species like the Jgd-Il-Jagd,
Githiashio, Crenduthaar, Dandelions, etc. -- all the CT aliens we can get
a hold of, to bring them back in print.  A super-Aliens-Archive.

Alien Book V: Trailing Strangers
	Weird aliens are harder to sell -- Loren Wiseman has, IIRC,
commented on the disappointing sales of the original CT Alien Modules for
these folks.  So bundle together the K'kree, everybody's favorite militant
vegetarians, and the Hivers, untrustworthy manipulators.  Maybe take the
book to 192 pp. if the author(s) feel cramped.  Significant detail on
K'kree contact in Gateway Sector, around the time of the Psionics
Suppressions?  Good detail on K'kree-Hiver Wars, too. Include  K'kree
subject races, like the Girug'kagh (sp?) and others, and multiple Hiver
clients, like the Ithklur, Za'tachk, and Gurvin.  Get some of the Keith
Brothers' short-story work on the K'kree (particularly the "interview"
published in JTAS) to add chrome and color.  Get similar stuff to make the
Hivers a more "real" presence.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:00:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Death of the K'kree

Responding to J. Raynor:

>>On the other hand, it's hard to believe the K'kree
had much experience with fighting off Viruses - their computers might be
widely (and elegantly) networked, but also "immunologically inept," which
would make the K'kree EVEN MORE vulnerable to Viral attack.<<

That's an interesting conclusion. So, by logical extension, as Virus
penetrated the Two Thousand Worlds' outer defenses, it would actually
_accelerate_ as it encountered less-hardened computer networks.

Yeah, I think the K'kree would be in big trouble.

If there's one race whose computer systems would be _less_ likely easy prey
for Virus, it would be those of the Vargr. From subsector to subsector,
system to system, heck sometimes even world to world, the natural Vargr
propensity for internecine competition would result in more compatibility
problems than today's information systems professional could even dream of!
Virus might encounter an unpleasant bout of indigestion trying to eat up
Vargr computer systems. It would at least slow it down.

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:50:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: re: Economics...long

Scott Ellsworth writes:

>What does tech level mean?
>
>In the cargo chapter, we are presented with a conversion of 10% per tech
>level.  This has always seemed ridiculously unreasonable, as there are so
>many things that one would want to do with higher tech goods that one
>should likely pay whatever you have to get them.  I would be willing to
>live with this if it were a multiplicative factor, but a simple additive
>factor does not fly.
>
>As a simple example, imagine how much PG&E would pay for a 1000MW fusion
>reactor that can be fueled for years on a hundred gallon tank of non
>radioactive stuff.  We are only tech 8, and that is a tech 12 toy.  This
>implies that the tech 8 world would only pay about 5/3 more than the tech
>12 people would.  If this is the case, then we have significantly
>undervalued technology.

	Unfortunately, this analogy, and this problem does not hold up.
In an utterly isolated system (ie: little green men came down and offered
to sell PG&E a 1000MW fusion generator, the prices would be astronomical.
But, to make it a little more down-to-earth, so to speak, selling modern
autos to primitive countries here on earth.  If Ford were the only one
making and selling cars, then no problem, the tech will be valued quite
highly, considering the tech level difference.

BUT, when Ford AND Toyota AND GM AND Hyundai AND Suzuki all are around to
sell the high tech, then the law of supply and demand intervenes. Whenever
you have multiple suppliers of the same tech, the price will go down. The
Imperium operates in an environment where there have always been many
suppliers of a given technology (except, apparently fusion+ ;-) so the
differences in tech level won't be as marked. The differences in
SUPPORTING those TL-12 items on a TL-8 world...well, that's another story
entirely!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 20:56:00 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <9703062222.AA33108@st6000.sct.edu>
> 
> > * The military salute originated as a way of showing that you were not
> > holding a weapon.
> >
> > * Shaking hands originated as a way of mutually checking that neither
> > party had a dagger strapped to his forearm hidden by his sleeve.
> 
> I thought this was another 'I'm not holding a weapon'?

You are right and the lifting of the visor that originates the salute was to confirm the identity 
of the person.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 21:03:02 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > And as far as akido against BD augmented senses, reflexes, and
> > muscles...heh....heheheheheheh....
> 
> Jujitsu or something similar *will* work. The basic idea is to get your
> opponents strength and relexes to work *against* him. So, while it may
> be harder to do to a person in BD, when you pull it off, the results
> will be *spectacular*.

eeeerrrrr, no
BD weighs something like 300 kg. Would a ju-jitsu specialist be able to throw a gorilla (I 
would bet no myself)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:45:37 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

At 04:08 PM 3/9/97 -0600, Sam wrote:
>At 12:32 PM 3/9/97 -0800, dberry@mail.hooked.net wrote:

>>And when the point-defence laser mounted on my BD stops your grenade(s)
>>after 2 meters of flight, and my point-defence radar immediately give me a
>>visable flight path back to the launch point, information that the other
>>three members of my fire team have instant access to, what are you going to
>>do then?

>Well once you go active, your location would triangulated by passive
>sensors, the  disposable remote controlled MRL would lay down a barrage of
>multiple warheads, using variable fight surfaces, that overwhelm your PD
>laser, and at least give a HE/HEAT headache. By the by, your PD would have
>to be active to get a counter battery location, being active constantly
>means constantly dead.

Well, the original scenario was shipboard, but I wouldn't put it past some
PCs to try and set up a MRL in the corridor.  I could always have just one
PD radar active at any one time, and have it share info with the other sets
in the fire team.  It might even be possible to automatically "hand-off" the
job to a different suit at random intervals.  Once I'm launched on, I still
have the classic infantry option of diving for cover.  Unless you start
getting into guided missles or drone vehicles, my basically man sized
Marines can go to ground.  If you do sic drone missles and the like on me,
then I'm forcing you to expend a lot of firepower on small targets.
 
>>Also, I've got a sensor suite that will detect your goon either by IR or
>>contour mapping.. I may fire first with a hand-held gauss machine gun or
>>plasma weapon!  Not to mention that since I'm already in a sealed
>>enviroment, I have no problem with punching holes in the hull.

>Well using Black Hole and ECM will reduce your resolution of my possible
>position by several factors. My "Horned Toad" heavy grav tank is not
>impressed by your gauss popgun or your plasma weapon paint remover. But
>then you bring out .......

Infantry do not fight tanks.  At least not fairly..  I doubt that the
Marines expect a squad to try to take out a TL11-12 AFV without some serious
assitance.  But then again, if the opposition has that kind of firepower,
you're getting outside the mission envelope for the IM anyway.  The Marines
are a striking force, best used in situations where they have surprise.  For
long term, heavy fighting, you bring in the Army.
>
>Is not combat in Traveller fun!!!!<G>

Oh, yass....

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 22:11:02 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Death of the K'kree

On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Chris Griffen wrote:
> If there's one race whose computer systems would be _less_ likely easy prey
> for Virus, it would be those of the Vargr. From subsector to subsector,
> system to system, heck sometimes even world to world, the natural Vargr
> propensity for internecine competition would result in more compatibility
> problems than today's information systems professional could even dream of!
> Virus might encounter an unpleasant bout of indigestion trying to eat up
> Vargr computer systems. It would at least slow it down.

Makes perfect sense.  I also suspect that Vargr planetary governments are
probably a lot less dependent on elaborate bureaucracies (and computer
networks that almost always go with them) than, say, Imperial ones are. 
Bureaucracies flourish when power is transferred smoothly, peacefully, and
predictably, and this just doesn't sound very Vargr to me.  Yes, the Vargr
have lots of computers, and use them when there are no real alternatives
(plotting courses for starships), but I doubt the average Vargr has
anything like a Social Security Number, and when a police officer on a
Vargr world asks for your "papers," he might mean just that!  Shortly
after a Viral attack, Vargr administrators would have plenty of trouble to
cope with, but they wouldn't be staring (in shell-shocked horror) at blank
computer terminal screens, wondering which end of the pencil to put in
the sharpener... 
                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:06:26 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Military Careers

At 05:17 PM 3/9/97 -0500, Bob wrote:

>If you have any more questions, fire=85 err, no=85 ask away.=20
>
>
Yes two questions:

1> Did the lobotomy hurt much?

2> Who reads the TML to you?

GO ARMY!  5 YEARS IN A ROW OVER THE SQUIDS!!!!!!!!!

In case you didn't get that, I'll try again and type slower.

I can't help myself, Infantry to the core..

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:06:32 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Accrete 3..

.. is a Very Good Thing.  I've used to detail an entire subsector now; I'm
just going through and doing the social parts, and writing notes for each
system.  

I highly recommend this for any serious planet-head, especially those
wanting to run scout adventures.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:06:30 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What happened....

At 10:38 PM 3/10/97 GMT0, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <331FA1BD.4927@siscom.net>
>
><<    When we look at the Holocaust (the real one), we see many parallels. 
>Many unique ethnic communities (most Jews, some not) across Europe were
>uprooted destroyed by the Nazis.  Those individuals that survived the
>Death camps were transformed by their experience.  Ultimately many of
>the surviving European Jews immigrated to the Holy Land, where they
>created a new society which incorporated all their different cultural
>backgrounds and influences.  The result was of course Israel. >>
>
>Which is, of course, a place of peace and harmony, living happily 
>alongside its neighbours...

... and dumping blood donated by its African citizens, and refusing to allow
non-Jews citizenship, and allowing the ultra-orthodox to run wild in an
attempt to inflict a strict theocratic state.

Sorry, but I've always been wary of any state founded to support a single
religion, too much potential for abuse.

Back to Traveller:  How do y'all handle the type D and E governments in your
campaigns?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:06:22 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

At 11:49 AM 3/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>> 
>>         I've just come to the startling theological realization that there
>> is a Fourth [sic] Horseman of the Apocalypse.  His name is Really
Annoying People
>> Who Write Posts (Often 1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat
>> Things Attached To The End.
>
>Ah, yes, the dread RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE.
>
>Long have I loathed him. With awed fear I watch the free space on my
>Hard Drive crumble in his wake. The eater of time, forcing hundreds to
>delete useless files.
>
>>         I rank him as somewhat worse than War and Pestilence put together,
>> and suspect that he's related to the twin Sixth and Seventh Horsemen,
>> Pyramid and Porno Usenet Spam Postings and Spam Mail Bots.
>
>I have been fortunate to avoid PAPUSP, but every now and then SPMAB
>intrudes in my domain. (Does anyone else get stupid SPURS ticket info
>every now and then?) I think the dread RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE is the
>worst for me, since my software automatically decodes and downloads the
>attachments in a separate folder (thinking them useful -- if I *asked*
>for an attachment, they would be).
>
>SPMAB can be instantly deleted and ignored, the dread
>RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE, mangler of digests, corruptor of lists, spawn
>of windoze, eater of space and time... is far more insidious.
>
>>         Of course, given that Really Annoying People Who Write Posts (Often
>> 1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat Things Attached To The
>> End are the Spawn of Bill Gates, this has interesting implications about
>> Microsoft, not to mention Bill himself.
>
>*SPIT* to even _think_ the name of the Progenitor of dread
>RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE causes the bile to rise in my throat. Only by
>saying the name backwards three times can I avoid the evil curse...
>Setagllib, Setagllib, Setagllib ;-)

You two are wisely ignoring an even greater Evil:  Clueless Idiots Who
Attach Gigantic Files You Have No Interest In To Their Posts!  Many the
morning I have sat in silent horror as my mail program attempts to swallow
an attachment roughly the length of the Mississippi.. with trembling fingers
I try to open the file only to find that it's in a format I can't read, or
for a later version of Excel...  The pain!, the pain!

In desperation, I scan for a website that such frippery could be banished
to, but invariably the sender has no clue as to how to set one up.. will
this madness never end!

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1058
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1059



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Accrete 3..
It's been fun
Re: The Suerrat
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Fate of the K'kree
Re: What happened....
Jiu-Jitsu
Skills and EDU (longish)
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Jiu-Jitsu
Re: What happened....
history of the peerage
history of the peerage
Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)
Re: Alien Book
Re: Summary Re: Alien Books (long)
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:43:28 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Accrete 3..

At 08:06 PM 3/10/97 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>.. is a Very Good Thing.  I've used to detail an entire subsector now; I'm
>just going through and doing the social parts, and writing notes for each
>system.  
>
>I highly recommend this for any serious planet-head, especially those
>wanting to run scout adventures.

Um, okay, but I must have missed the link.  Where can I get it?

And can you tell me what it does (if anything) in terms of planetary
geography?  Does anyone have a _good_ generator for detailed maps of
terrestrial planets?  I'm working on one in my spare time, but...

Thanks.
- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 11:46:35 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: It's been fun

I am having to drop the TML... it's been fun.

I'll be back when I find a new e-mail service.

peace

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:09:23 -0800
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: The Suerrat

Thanks for the info Joseph.  I had been wondering for a while.

>I've been wanting to detail them for a while, somewhat in the style of
>Carlos' Geonee. 

I look forward to reading it. 

Shade

- -- 
"*#%& the censors!!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:08:55 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

>>If only the first hit in combat is taken on a single stat (typical T4 idiot
>>rule) why not stab oneself with a very small knife before combat to avoid
>>this from happening with a lethal round. What is wrong with this picture?

That dodge goes back to CT.  The answer has always been: the small knife
wound and the ACR round you take next turn both come off a single stat
because the two are the first hits in different combats (AKA the
Anti-Munchkin rule).

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 23:24:18 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Fate of the K'kree

[discussing the post-Virus K'kree]

>Consider their homogeneity. Of all the major races, the K'kree are the 
most
>homogeneous. From the base castes to the highest steppelords, you would
>have nearly a complete void of variation in computer systems. What easier
>target would there be for Virus to penetrate and destroy in a rapid and
>devastatingly complete fashion.

	However, due to K'kree racial superiority, they very rarely make their 
homes, starships, worlds, etc. under any kind of computer control. Not to 
mention the fact that they don't use the Deyo chip transponders (check out 
Survival Margin for the tragic consequences of not using this technology) - 
probably due to their conservatism over new technologies.

>>From a gaming perspective, this seems to be a very boring end to the
>Centaurs, not to mention very cheap. Why throw out all that previously
>published background data?
>
>I disagree. The _return_ of this race to the fold, perhaps after a nearly
>millenium-long diaspora deep to trailing, would make for an exciting 
story.
>I love the K'kree race as much as anybody. Who wouldn't love such a herd 
of
>furry xenophobes?! <g>  But I'm not willing to hysterically grip my CT
>K'kree Alien Module for dear life and let it get in the way of telling a
>good story.

Ahhhhh. Well now, that is different. Your original post made it seem like 
you had just arbitrarily killed off the K'kree. What you have suggested is 
something entirely different...

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 22:04:07 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: What happened....

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 10:38 PM 3/10/97 GMT0, you wrote:
> >backgrounds and influences.  The result was of course Israel. >>
> >
> >Which is, of course, a place of peace and harmony, living happily
> >alongside its neighbours...
> 
> ... and dumping blood donated by its African citizens, and refusing to allow
> non-Jews citizenship, and allowing the ultra-orthodox to run wild in an
> attempt to inflict a strict theocratic state.
> 
> Sorry, but I've always been wary of any state founded to support a single
> religion, too much potential for abuse.
> 

I think you missed the heavily sarcastic tone of the original
poster. Lighten up!  :-)

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 22:02:49 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Jiu-Jitsu

Mused wrote:
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> > In mail you write:
> >
> > > And as far as akido against BD augmented senses, reflexes, and
> > > muscles...heh....heheheheheheh....
> >
> > Jujitsu or something similar *will* work. The basic idea is to get your
> > opponents strength and relexes to work *against* him. So, while it may
> > be harder to do to a person in BD, when you pull it off, the results
> > will be *spectacular*.
> 
> eeeerrrrr, no
> BD weighs something like 300 kg. Would a ju-jitsu specialist be able to throw a gorilla (I
> would bet no myself)

As a practitioner of Jiu-Jitsu, I must comment. I weigh around
145 lbs. I've thrown people weighing around 240 lbs. It's a lot of
work and it ain't graceful.

However, in a fight I wouldn't use a throw, because it takes too
long against someone that size. Besides, I'd need to get at least
one arm around (for a hip throw) the waist and that may not be
possible if the opponent is wearing battle dress.

There are many other moves I could use. Most involve ensuring that
the foe is off balance first and then rapidly moving his legs out
from under him. No throws are required and these moves are fast
and sneaky.

Now, giving the distracting kick to the groin, that's another matter.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 19:08:37 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Skills and EDU (longish)

Zhodani Agents report James Garriss said:
>>>
>>>I disagree.  I took plenty of classes that I don't remember squat about.
>>>But I still have my degree, don't I.  So if EDU is absolute, I've acquired
>>>EDU 9 (or whatever a BS is) whether I can remember it or not.
>>
>>Um, if you can't remember it, why does it do you any good? 
>
>LOTS of good.  I have a degree in Electrical Engineering.  There are
>*hundreds* of jobs that I could get simply by walking in and proving that I
>have that piece of paper.  Not all may be EE related and not all may be as
>high paying as my current salary, but they are sure out there. 
>
>Heck, my current job is in Systems Engineering.  Did I take any SE classes
>as an undergrad?  Nope.  Am I performing systems engineering now?  Yep.
>How do you explain that?  1) my piece of paper got me in the front door.
>2) college increased my ability to learn, so I can learn new skills that
>have _nothing_ to do with my degree.
>
>That make sense?  EDU is absolute.  It measures how much schooling one has.
> And I infer that it proves that someone has learned how to learn.

This is a fine point, but I feel it is a misconception, and here's why.

In this corner we have Joe Traveller, with UPP 777777.  He's a recent
college graduate with a skill of Physics-3. 

In the other corner we have Cleon Shugilli, with a UPP of 7777F7, a PhD in
Archeology.  He has a skill of Physics-3 as well due to the fact that a
cute girl he wanted to date was a physics major.

Now, we take Joe and Cleon to the world of Rutabega-3 in the Windhorn
sector.  They are each asked to plot the tragectory of an asteroid with a
particular mass, velocity, and position, given full information about the
star system.

We decide that, for the Rutabega system, this is an Average task,
requiring a roll of 2D.

Joe's target number is 10.  Cleon's is 18.  Why is Cleon's higher?
Because his EDU is higher.  Both people are given the same resources, the
same amount of time, and the same environments.  Both will probably
succeed, but Cleon is much more likely to give us the right answer.

Now, are we to assume that Cleon has a higher target number for solving
this orbital mechanics problem because his degree gives him a foot in the
door?  I don't see how.

Is Cleon's higher target number a result of the fact that he has learned
how to learn more effectively than Joe?  Maybe, because maybe he is able
to leaf through the books and reaquire skills and information he needs to
successfully solve the problem more quickly. 

However, I would argue that it's because his store of knowledge about the
topic is greater.  Cleon's higher EDU suggests to me that his knowledge
about Physics is greater than Joe's, even though they are equally
skilled.  That is how the skill system works, IMHO.

What this implies, to me, is that skill levels are in fact not absolute.
Two people with Electronics-2 might both be able to swap out the Deteronic
Frombotzer on my Air Raft, but the one with EDU C will know more about
Deteronic Frombotzers in general and will be able to accomplish the task
more quickly, efficiently, and safely than someone with EDU 4.

Finally, EDU, as presented by the T4 rulebook, CANNOT simply be a count of
how many years you have been in school.  Here's why.

Able Traveller, a cousin of Joe, has a UPP of 777777.  He attends College.
He receives +4 EDU, one for each year, leaving him with a UPP of 7777B7.
He has a BS or BA.

His twin brother, Baker Traveller, has a UPP of 777747.  He attends the
same university and also gains +4 in EDU, leaving him with a UPP of
777787.  Both students, Able and Baker, have spent the same amount of time
in school, both are college graduates with BS or BAs.  They have different
EDUs.

Their sister, Callie, has a UPP of 777777, but she does really well in
school and graduates with honors.  She has a final UPP of 7777C7.

EDU is not a linear measure of how many years you have attended school or
what sort of degree you have.  The best option is that it reflects how
much you have learned from both formal and informal sources.

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://danger.home.ml.org/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:37:24 -0600 (CST)
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

Zhodani Agents report Richard Hough said:
[Snippage about EDU not being able to go up deleted...]
>
>I never claimed Edu, Str, or any other characteristic shouldn't go up
>during character generation, only that Edu should not go up automatically
>just because you sat in a classroom for a year. On the contrary, I
>suggested keeping the roll to increase Edu if you get honors.
>
>Unfortunately, I rolled a Spectacular Failure in pasting my house rules for
>advanced education to my mailer and a big chunk of text got deleted. My
>apologies, even I couldn't understand what got posted. Basically, my house
>rule is to ignore the automatic +1 Edu per year of education and only
>increase Edu if you make an Honors roll. There was some blather about
>reducing the Honors target number and adding DMs, but this is of less
>importance.

This makes a lot more sense and, frankly, I'd have to agree with you.  I
know lots of people who sat in a room, passed, and don't know anything
about what was discussed...

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                 http://danger.home.ml.org/index.html
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 01:26:35 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Jiu-Jitsu

On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:
> Now, giving the distracting kick to the groin, that's another matter.

Against an opponent in *battle dress*, that probably wouldn't be a
very good idea.  Clang!  Ouch!  < image of martial artist hopping in
circles on one foot, clutching painfully stubbed toes, as soldier in
battle dress just stands there, looking obnoxiously smug >

                                                         - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 01:48:24 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: What happened....

Andrew Boulton writes: 

<<The result was of course Israel. >>
>
>Which is, of course, a place of peace and harmony, living happily 
>alongside its neighbours...

   Of course not, that's part 2 of the story.  I'd go into the all the
bloody detail, but the last thing the list needs is a Middle East
History/Politics thread.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 22:43:15 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: history of the peerage

>From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
>Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

[deletion]

>One point: prior to Year 0, there *were* no nobles.

I don't think that's true, or, if it's technically true, it's materially misleading. 

It's technically true to the extent that nobles after year zero are defined as the upper 
strata of Imperial society, holding ranks granted by the Emperor and owing fealty to the 
Emperor and his or her successors.  Before that empire and that emporer, there were no 
nobles who fit that definition.

It's misleading, however, because it suggests that prior to the Third Imperium, there 
were no nobles and no noble customs and usages (the quoted line above was a response to 
comments about the code duello).  For example, the Vilani had nobles:  "Certain of the 
old Vilani noble families have maintained more of the old culture..."  Supp. 11, Library 
Date N-Z, at 30.  

After the Interstellar Wars, Solomani officers became military governors of large pieces 
of the Ziru Sirka. I and others have argued on this list that those military governors 
assumed hereditary powers in the face of the weakness and eventual collapse of the Rule 
of Man -- that is, they grabbed what they could while the grabbing was good.  In the 
1776 years between the collapse of the Rule of Man and the formation of the Third 
Imperium, this largely self-made nobility provided whatever stability and defense there 
was.  When Cleon formed the Imperium, he had to co-opt this pre-existing nobility by 
affirming its traditional rights.

N.B.:  I haven't read Milieu: Zero yet, so the above may not be canon.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 22:43:15 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: history of the peerage

>From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
>Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

[deletion]

>One point: prior to Year 0, there *were* no nobles.

I don't think that's true, or, if it's technically true, it's materially misleading. 

It's technically true to the extent that nobles after year zero are defined as the upper 
strata of Imperial society, holding ranks granted by the Emperor and owing fealty to the 
Emperor and his or her successors.  Before that empire and that emporer, there were no 
nobles who fit that definition.

It's misleading, however, because it suggests that prior to the Third Imperium, there 
were no nobles and no noble customs and usages (the quoted line above was a response to 
comments about the code duello).  For example, the Vilani had nobles:  "Certain of the 
old Vilani noble families have maintained more of the old culture..."  Supp. 11, Library 
Date N-Z, at 30.  

After the Interstellar Wars, Solomani officers became military governors of large pieces 
of the Ziru Sirka. I and others have argued on this list that those military governors 
assumed hereditary powers in the face of the weakness and eventual collapse of the Rule 
of Man -- that is, they grabbed what they could while the grabbing was good.  In the 
1776 years between the collapse of the Rule of Man and the formation of the Third 
Imperium, this largely self-made nobility provided whatever stability and defense there 
was.  When Cleon formed the Imperium, he had to co-opt this pre-existing nobility by 
affirming its traditional rights.

N.B.:  I haven't read Milieu: Zero yet, so the above may not be canon.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:14:06 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

John P. Raynor wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:
> > Now, giving the distracting kick to the groin, that's another matter.
> 
> Against an opponent in *battle dress*, that probably wouldn't be a
> very good idea.  Clang!  Ouch!  < image of martial artist hopping in
> circles on one foot, clutching painfully stubbed toes, as soldier in
> battle dress just stands there, looking obnoxiously smug >
> 

Well, in martial arts, there are lots of "breaking techniques", which
would a good fighter allow, to hit *through* the armory. That's just a
matter of Ki, as a proper m-artist would say.

I myself thought about introducing a martial-Arts skilltable for
traveller.

Any suggestions?

CyA
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:28:27 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Alien Book

>From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>

>>- - ->         1. VILANI / Geonee / Newts / Bonus: Answerin
>
>	I think this would be a great place to add the Ael Yael.  I know 
>I've been pushing for this, but they are my favortie aliens and they are 
>most definetly in the correct area for a M:0 book.

        Where is their homeworld, exactly, and where were they presented?

>	I also agree with Carlos that the Vilani boo really should be the 
>first to be published.  After all, they ARE the early Third Imperium.

        Yes, and I think that when someone first asked why the Vilani
weren't described in the races section of T4, the official (?) answer was:
because the players *are* Vilani.

>	BTW.... whats a Suerrat?  I've seen the picture in 
>Solomani/Aslan, but thats all I know of them.

        Minor human race from Ilelish, IIRC. Covered with hair. They started
interstellar travel with generational ships. I think there are some
references around there, e.g. under the word "Major Race" (or maybe "minor")
in MT's Imperial Encyclopedia. I don't know if they were treated in detail
somewhere...
        Btw, in the page of the MT's Imperial Encyclopedia where the Suerrat
are cited, there is a nice illo of a human minor race. I always assumed that
it was from the Loeskalth (eliminated by the Vilani), who were treated in
the same page, but, now that I stop to think about it... could they be
Suerrat? Has anybody considered that illo?

        Carlos.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:06:21 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Summary Re: Alien Books (long)

        In a perfect world, it seems some sort of consensus is appearing.
Hope Marc and IG are reading this.... I still think that the Major race per
book, as I proposed, would be a good idea, but must to confess I like the
latter Joseph's ideas:

>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>

>Alien Book I: Vargr
>	Details on the race plus minor offshoots (Roth Thokken, etc.),
>written from a "far-future" (post-1200) vantage point but focusing primary
>detail on the Milieu Zero period.  Ensure enough "chrome" gets given that
>the Vargr don't come across as simply pooches on their hind legs (even if
>they are!).  Additional detail on nearby minor but non-human races: Brinn,
>Tahavi, possibly Hhkar (though they don't fit M0), or a new one.  128pp
>book, hardcover.

        Looks good. Departs totally from the Human/nonhuman mixture, but
maybe that's also a good thing.In the minor offshoots, recall the Urzaeng...
I have had several Urzaeng PCs and still haven't seen a good write-up on them.
        About the far future vantage point, I personally prefer the old DGP
style: pretend the articles are written by people of the approprate eras,
and published, so that you can handle them to the players if you like.
 
>Alien Book II: The Races of Man
(snip)
>evolution, survival, galactic politics.  Major Humans' (Vilani, Zhodani,
>Solomani) biology, culture, and history.  Lesser but significant detail on
>three upper-tier minor races (Syleans, Geonee, Suerrat).  Coverage of a
>few more minor and less-widespread minor human races (Darrians, Answerin,
(snip)
>128 pp, maybe more (192?) if authors, publicists, bean-counters all agree.

        Clearly too much. Maybe it would be better to split this one in two
or more hardbacks, the first being purely M:0 with the Vilani, Geonee and
Suerrat. Call this "Human Book I" instead of "Alien" <g>. About the Syleans,
are they a minor race? I thought they were just a nation, with no biological
differences!. They are racially vilani with a small Solomani component, right?
        Reserve the Zhodani (with the Vlazhdumecta!) and make Human Book II
Solomani (but, then, where have the Vegans gone? <g>). Time to reconsider it
all.

>Alien Book III: Aslan
>	A lead product for 1998/9, supporting Milieu: 200 -- The Aslan
>Border Wars.  Narrative viewpoint is debatable -- do we want to include
>"the secret" of Aslan "minorship", or leave that for long-term fans?  Even
>leaving that aside, point of authorship could range as late as the 1100's,
>maybe even touching on the ihatei invasion of the Spinward Marches. 
(snip)
>humans, human-cultural Aslan, Zodia colonies, etc.  Detail nearby minor
>races: Virushi, Ahetaowa, Ormine, perhaps a few newcomers.  128pp hardcover.

        Once the period 1100 is included, I must insist the Darrian fit here
quite well, instead of in a Human volume.

>Alien Book IV: Wards of the Imperium
>	Multiple-milieu support.  Emphasize Droyne (and Chirpers) for
>major section, since new game buyers of First Survey will be wondering who
>the heck they are.  Fill the rest with species like the Jgd-Il-Jagd,
(snip)

        I know you don't like 'em, but... a word about the Primordials?

>Alien Book V: Trailing Strangers

        (snip good sketch)
        A Hivers/K'kree joint book would be a good one if sales on
individual races are low, yes, but making it 192 pp would discourage most
buyers. And this one should really be multi-Millieu. 
        Evil thought: create Vargr/K'kree wars to boost interest. Far
colonies of those "red vargr" to Trailing...
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:56:13 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

Doug Berry wrote:

>
>Well, the original scenario was shipboard, but I wouldn't put it past some
>PCs to try and set up a MRL in the corridor.
[snip]

	I would not put it past players to try and do _*ANYTHING*_,
especially if it involves large-caliber weapons and high explosives.  In
fact the more destruction that is likely to result, the more probable they
are to try it.

	Especially mine.

	<sigh...>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:52:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1043

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > And as far as akido against BD augmented senses, reflexes, and
>> > muscles...heh....heheheheheheh....
>> 
>> Jujitsu or something similar *will* work. The basic idea is to get your
>> opponents strength and relexes to work *against* him. So, while it may
>> be harder to do to a person in BD, when you pull it off, the results
>> will be *spectacular*.
>
> eeeerrrrr, no
> BD weighs something like 300 kg. Would a ju-jitsu specialist be able to 
> throw a gorilla (I would bet no myself)

I'd bet yes. 

You don't *throw* the person. You get them to make a move expecting you
to resist, and instead, you *help* them. The classic example is someone
trying to push you over. You wait for the push, and instead of pushing
back, you *pull*. So you go over in a *controlled* fall, and the other
guy goes over in an out-of-control fall. 

Again, you don't use *your* strength except to provide *tiny* bits of
guidance to the opponent's strength. And you don't *resist*, you
*assist*. 

Thus the weight of the BD is *irrelevant*, as you aren't moving it. You
are letting the *wearer* move it, and just nudging it a bit at
strategic moments. You just get him to place *himself* off balance, and
then help... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:08:12 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

At 09:13 PM 3/10/97 GMT, you wrote:
>On Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:29:18 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> I see what you're saying.  And here is my answer to this, if one assumes
>> EDU is absolute:  You can't get any higher than F, but F represents the
>> highest level piece of paper the Imperium gives out (post-doctoral work, or
>> whatever they call it).
>> 
>> Make sense?
>
>Not really, and here's why.
>
>If we define an EDU rating of 15 (F) as being the equivalent of a
>post-doctorate degree, people in the Traveller universe (with access
>to longevity drugs) can _easily_ live long enough to acquire
>additional post-doctorate degrees in other totally-unrelated fields.
>Now the individual has multiple pieces of paper (which we will assume
>means that the character DOES possess those skills).  Even without
>Anagathics, multiple doctorates are still possible.  What is such a
>character's EDU rating now? :)

F.  If you were to get a Doctorate and then a second, what would we call
you?  Dr. Dr. Lindsay?  No, you'd still be just Dr. Lindsay and your EDU
would not go up.

>> >I was talking in game terms :)  A Traveller character with a piece of
>> >paper and no measurable skills would be simply that... a Traveller
>> >character with a piece of paper and no measurable skills :)
>> 
>> Yeah, but there are lots of places where that piece of paper would get him
>> a job and allow him to start learning new skills.  And learning those
>> skills would not mean his EDU would go up.
>
>Not if his/her EDU rating is already max'ed out at 15.  

No, no, no.  At any EDU level.  Learning skills is NOT the definition of
EDU.  

>According to
>Traveller's definition, the character possesses all of the knowledge
>his/her humanoid brain can hold at that point.  

No, no, no, again.  Reread the definition of EDU.  EDU is NOT defined as
the amount of knowledge a brain can hold.

Given that you're choosing to redefine EDU, most of your remaining
arguments don't make sense.  I suppose it might be best to table this
discussion and simply agree that we disagree on what EDU is.

>Yet, the character is
>still allowed to improve his/her skills (partially representing new
>knowledge) as well as simply experience life.  Remember how Bud Bundy
>coached his sister Kelly for that sports trivia game?  Every sports
>fact he managed to cram into her brain meant that some other knowledge
>ended up being dislodged (like Al's existence).  As the Traveller
>definition of EDU currently stands, we all have the potential to
>become Kelly Bundys :)
>
>> >You've lost me.  I've been to school were I learned skills.  Each year
>> >I progressed, I learned more skills (of course, it was a technical
>> >institute, but that shouldn't make any difference).
>> 
>> Well, in your case you were adding skill levels.  When you completed your
>> degree, your EDU went up to reflect the amount of schooling you've had.
>> That work?
>
>While it is true that I learned other things that many would not
>consider linked to my chosen career path at that moment of my life,
>and that these tidbits of knowledge translate into my EDU stat, I
>still don't see how this "definition" becomes the dominating factor in
>determining my overall skill rating in "Survey" or "Robotics".
>
>Why isn't EDU (as it is definded) the controlling attribute for
>"Mechanics"?  Just because one is an academic course and one is a
>trade course shouldn't make a difference (ie: carpenters that spend
>two years in school and four-to-six years in their apprenticeship
>should, by definition, have high EDU ratings, just like someone that
>spent a similar amount of time at a university).  Otherwise, doctors
>(with their high medical school EDUs) will always appear more skilled
>in their field than an electrician (with the same amount of training)
>in his/her field.
>
>My solution: leave EDU "as is" and substitute it for the character's
>general knowledge when necessary (ie: anything not listed on his or
>her character sheet as a "skill").  It should also be used as an
>indicator as to how easily a character learns.  It should not be used
>as a controlling attribute for skills (it's definition as either "an
>ability to learn" or "accumulated general knowledge" makes it too
>powerful a stat to be used as a controlling attribute for skills such
>as History, Archaeology, etc.).  Additionally, it should not be handed
>out willy-nilly for every few years spent in school.
>
>The only other solution would be to change the definition of Education
>to something that would be *as* influential to a character's overall
>"Law" skill rating as Intelligence is to that character's "Sensors"
>skill rating.
>
>

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1059
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1060



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Accrete Program
Darrians (was Re: Alien Book (Longish))
Re: Battledress and Bruce Lee
Aslan in the [post-]Virus Era
Re: Battle Dress
Virus and the Vargr (Was: Death of the K'kree)
Re: Skills and EDU (longish)
[none]
More Second THUDD Entries
THUDDD Ballot
Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)
Re: resource material

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:37:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

In mail you write:

> I've always read it that INT reflects your ability to reason, and EDU
> reflects how much you know.  I've known lots of people far cleverer than I
> who know less, and I've known lots of people who know more than I, but who
> aren't as clever.  <Shrug>  I've also known people who know lots who have
> little or no formal schooling.

This reminds me of the way I explained the difference between INT and
WIS to D&D players (lo, these many years ago).

INT says "That's a dragon"
WIS says "Hope it didn't see you!"

So, in Traveller, I'd have INT be the "native cunning" bit, and EDU be
"accumulated knowledge". Therefore, INT would let you figure out things
you *didn't* know, whereas EDU is the chance that you *do* know
something about it.

Most of my rep for "hard science" here on the list is based on my EDU.
But I don't have any "degrees", just a high school diploma. But I also
read *voraciously*, and could probably successfully "challenge" larhe
parts of any undergrad science curriculum I chose to take. 

My ability to *apply* all the things I know is INT based. 

Note that the "life expereince credits" you can get at many colleges
for *relevant* experience in the real world, shows that EDU *is* based
on "what sticks", not merely what you've been exposed to.

The trick with graduate degrees is that in most cases a lot of the
stuff *had* to have stuck, or you'd never have finished the program.

At the very least, you need the ability to know where to look for info
you can't recall (a skill much like "rules lawyering", except applied
in a socially acceptable manner :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:15:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Accrete Program

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson:
>> Now I gotta go dig up the references, and look at the code to see what's
>> going on.
>
> Do any of your references detail moon accretion?  When I downloaded
> the original Accrete to tweak it, I noticed the moon construction
> step was empty -- no moons constructed.  For that manner, does anyone
> else out there have any references they can point me to that detail
> accretion (including moons) so I can rewrite my version of the
> software?

I'm looking for a version of Accrete in one of the following languages
as I don't "do" C:

FORTRAN
BASIC
Pascal

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 01:39:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Darrians (was Re: Alien Book (Longish))

In mail you write:

>         That's a point. The truth is, the Aslan book could be made totally
> Milieu-specific, and the Darrian just do not fit in the Milieu, but, also,

Somebody with better maps than I've got, please check and see how many
parsecs it is from the Darrian's star to Vland, the Aslan "capital",
Zhdant, Core, and Sylea.

I want to figure out if the "odd" flare activity would be seen from
those places before or after their explorers got near the Darrians. 

The activity *would* be noticed by any decent observatory looking in
the right direction at the right time. So that, along with all the
evidence of "Grandfather's War" laying around would make that area a
place to direct explorations toward.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 01:30:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Battledress and Bruce Lee

In mail you write:

>>Jujitsu or something similar *will* work. The basic idea is to get your
>>opponents strength and relexes to work *against* him. So, while it may
>>be harder to do to a person in BD, when you pull it off, the results
>>will be *spectacular*.
>
> Perhaps if the other person is also in BD, it might work. My conception 
> of BD goes "Battle dress registers soft target in vicinity--target acts in 
> threatening manner--AP grenades/point-defense laser/what have you 
> fires--martial artist goes away" <g>

But that's the whole *point* of most "Oriental martial arts". You
*don't* initiate attacks. It's just that when someone else *tries* to
attack you, they seem to run into all sorts of difficulties. :-)

>>Fatal BD trainee mistake #1:
>>       Slapping that bug on your forehead....
>
> hehehe... and then when your newly aquired headache makes you go
> "DOH!" and slap yourself with your other hand.... <g>

Since I *was* talking about doing so when *not* wearing your helmet,
either the BD is wimpy, or you no longer *have* a head to ache. 

> Hmmm.... the use of bugs in combat... reminds me of a point brought up
> in the Traveller chat last Thursday about dropping aphids on a planet 
> instead of 0.1c rocks.....<g>

Mutant cockroaches. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 14:01:00 PST
From: David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
Subject: Aslan in the [post-]Virus Era

I've just got back from a couple of days away and I'm still wading   
through the lists (I have about fifteen to go until I catch up), however   
I noticed someone asking what happened to the Aslan as a result of Virus.

[Biographical Note: I have read the source material]

I wrote an article, with character generation rules and some background   
for alien races in TNE for Valkyrie magazine in about 1994 (I'd have to   
check the exact publication date). Here's what I wrote about the Aslan:

*** Note. These are my opinions drawn from my campaign, and are not   
intended as a match for a flame war (but if you really, badly want to   
have a flame war, there isn't a lot I can do to stop you except point you   
to places where you can get dialysis to let the bile out safely). ***

<quote>
Aslan fared better than most against Virus, although they did not escape   
unscathed. The Virus crossed the border from Imperial space into Solomani   
space as if it wasn't there - their computer systems were so alike in   
many ways. But the Aslan Hierate was split up into thousands of clans,   
each with their own computer systems, codes and procedures - and each   
with their own enclaves on Kusyu, the Aslan homeworld. The virus crossed   
the last eight parsecs to the Aslan/Solomani border in three months. It   
took four months to cross the one parsec to Kusyu, where it almost   
dead-ended.
Now, almost seventy years later, Virus still ravages Kusyu and the   
subsectors immediately around it, but the rest of the Hierate remains   
relatively Virus-free. All Aslan know that the sacrifice of their   
homeworld bought them enough time to save the rest of the Hierate by   
instituting anti-Virus measures. Those measures, coupled with the   
enormous diversity in computer systems, managed to stop the spread of the   
Virus almost dead. But at a terrible, terrible price.
Treatment of captured Virus strains vary from clan to clan: some isolate   
and study it; most destroy it along with the infected system; and some,   
mostly in Reaver's Deep and Daibei, have 'befriended' certain strains   
(albiet in secrecy) and are working with them to build new civilisations   
in that border area.
Aslan treatment of Imperial remnants is another matter, however. Most   
Aslan view the Virus as a made thing - a weapon made by Imperials and   
released without thought. The fact that Virus was not designed to be used   
against the Aslan doesn't matter - they regard all remnant Imperials as   
culpable.
Because Aslan honour views attacks on an unsuspecting enemy as cowardly,   
most Imperial remnants found by Aslan are revived before being spaced or   
hung. Some clans view the Imperials as being without any honour, however,   
and some remnants are blown up with their ships, never having been   
revived.
In Aslan society, the first son is groomed to take over from his Father   
as head of the clan. All the other sons (called Ihatei - literally   
'second son') are expected to leave home and make a new home and clan of   
their own. This has been the basis of Aslan expansion for hundreds of   
years and has barely changed in all that time.
In the past, the majority of the Ihatei struck out Coreward and Trailing   
(towards the Imperium) - indeed, the Emperor Strephon had an honour guard   
of Aslan. Now, although there is some expansion into Daibei and towards   
the Regency, almost all Ihatei have turned their faces Spinward and   
Rimward, expanding away from the Virus.
<end quote>

Interestingly, as we played on in this campaign, one of the main Aslan   
male PCs refused to believe that Virus existed on the grounds that he   
couldn't see it, touch it, hunt it or kill it. At one point, he all but   
accused the females of having made it up!

Kind Regards

David Elrick

david.elrick@ps.co.uk  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:52:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

   Hi.

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>   Unless you start
> getting into guided missles or drone vehicles, my basically man sized
> Marines can go to ground.  If you do sic drone missles and the like on me,
> then I'm forcing you to expend a lot of firepower on small targets.
 
   Targets carrying Cr 300,000 worth of hardware are not small. You can
   buy a lot of Auto GL's for that price.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:56:19 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Virus and the Vargr (Was: Death of the K'kree)

>Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:00:22 -0800 (PST)
>From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
>Subject: Re: Death of the K'kree
>
>If there's one race whose computer systems would be _less_ likely easy prey
>for Virus, it would be those of the Vargr. From subsector to subsector,
>system to system, heck sometimes even world to world, the natural Vargr
>propensity for internecine competition would result in more compatibility
>problems than today's information systems professional could even dream of!
>Virus might encounter an unpleasant bout of indigestion trying to eat up
>Vargr computer systems. It would at least slow it down.


I think this would also be the case within the Aslan worlds to an extent.
The different clans would use their own systems, but they would be able to
interact with the clans nearest them (the females would see to that).  So as
you said about the Vargr, it may not (and probably didn't) stop Virus, but
"it would at least slow it down."

This combination (of Vargr and Aslan computer differences) as well as the
Great Rift IMHO are what saved the Spinward Marches.  I mean, the Vargr had
invaded well into the Corridor sector, and Virus would have to have gotten
past them to get to the Marches.  Either that, or go through the rift or
around the Aslan route, and I don't see either of the second two happening
nearly as fast (if at all).  So in a very real sense, Norris owes that
precious little flame of his to the Vargr diversity and compatibility issues.

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:45:06 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Skills and EDU (longish)

Dane Johnson wrote:

>Zhodani Agents report James Garriss said:
>>>>
>>>>I disagree.  I took plenty of classes that I don't remember squat about.
>>>>But I still have my degree, don't I.  So if EDU is absolute, I've acquired
>>>>EDU 9 (or whatever a BS is) whether I can remember it or not.
>>>
>>>Um, if you can't remember it, why does it do you any good?
>>
>>LOTS of good.  I have a degree in Electrical Engineering.  There are
>>*hundreds* of jobs that I could get simply by walking in and proving that I
>>have that piece of paper.  Not all may be EE related and not all may be as
>>high paying as my current salary, but they are sure out there.
>>
>>Heck, my current job is in Systems Engineering.  Did I take any SE classes
>>as an undergrad?  Nope.  Am I performing systems engineering now?  Yep.
>>How do you explain that?  1) my piece of paper got me in the front door.
>>2) college increased my ability to learn, so I can learn new skills that
>>have _nothing_ to do with my degree.
>>
>>That make sense?  EDU is absolute.  It measures how much schooling one has.
>> And I infer that it proves that someone has learned how to learn.
>
>This is a fine point, but I feel it is a misconception, and here's why.
[snip]>
>EDU is not a linear measure of how many years you have attended school or
>what sort of degree you have.  The best option is that it reflects how
>much you have learned from both formal and informal sources.

	Well, IMHO this is just a further example of why the whole edu stat
ought to be ditched; we have three positions:

1) EDU = objective years of schooling.  IMHO, this is a really wierd stat
to use with knowledge-based rolls, since 18 years of art school will not
teach how to refibrillate a frombotzer, calculate an asteroid trajectory,
etc.  Conceptually, it's really inelegant; Amount of time you spend in the
education system does not, IMHO, have a direct effect on your
problem-solving abaility.

2) EDU = fuzzy "how much you know": IMHO, suffers from the same problem as
the above, really; you aren't using your entire store of knowledge when
dealing with a given problem; my store of knowledge of amateur astronomy is
going to be of zero use to me when I'll be trying to tell my clients
whether to sue or not, and my knowledge of sailor's knots useless for
finding Hale-Bopp.

3) EDU = fuzzy "how well you learn": OK, so how does ability to learn help
you apply a skill you've already learned in an practical situation?  This
definition ought to apply in gaining skills through experience, not the
task system.

	I think that a far better way of modelling how education works is
that you put the skills that it gives you in the skills section of the
charsheet, and use them with the INT skill.  Have stat increases from
higher education terms go to INT or SOC, and perhaps have more mental stats
to reflect different aspect sof cognition.

	As it is, the existence of this whole thread and debate is just
evidence of EDU being extremely problematic.  Are we having the same
problems with SOC, STR, or INT?  No, because they make sense.  EDU doesn't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 10:00:44 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: [none]

>C.T.'s "Book 8: Robots," however, says that the K'kree make wide use of
>"master/slave" robot systems, since this kind of thing goes well with
>fondness for herds and hierarchies.  I admit this is really stretching,
>but couldn't it be argued that this reflects a general K'kree aptitude for
>computer networking?  

I think it would, but I think it would make the K'Kree very vulnerable
to attack by the Virus.  Once one Master got taken over, suddenly the
Virus would control dozens of other robots. This would probably lead to
more Puppeteer Virus strains in K'Kree space.  

Since K'Kree space is so far away from Imperial space, by the time
Virus got there, it might have evolved away from the simple suicider
Virus strains, into the more interesting strains, like Doomslayers.
This would lessen the direct impact of the Virus, but it would create a
more subtle deadlier enemy.  The Virus might keep the K'Kree somewhat
intact to use them for its purposes.  The K'Kree might even go along
with some of this.  AFter all Virus doesn't eat MEAT. (or anything else
for that matter.)

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is yellow, smooth and deadly?
A:Shark infested pudding.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:56:09 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: More Second THUDD Entries

Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class (SSDS)

Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au

Tons: 800Std (SL Sph)    Volume: 11200 m3       Cost: 591.8(540.2)MCr
Crew: 21                 High/Med Pass: 0/40    Low: 0
Cargo: 100Std            Controls: Mil(Fib)(B)  TL: 12

08 Size                             2 Jump Drive (80 Std/Pc Fuel)
1x 251Mj HvyLsr(+4) 1/5-4-2-1       2 Maneuver (2G T-Plates,400MW)
1x HvyMslTrt(+4) 4/4                1 Power Plant (2x250Mw+ 2x100Mw)
                                  167 Std Fuel (Refine 17, Scoop 167)
                                    0 Meson Screen
1x Min Hngr (Mod Cutter)            4 Sandcasters (120)
1x Docking Ring (50-ton Craft)      0 Nuclear Damper
                                  A10 P4 J10 Sensors (-3 Masking)
                                   30 Armour, 14 Structure

Crew Detail - 1 Maintenance, 2 Eng - Power Plant, 6 Eng - Drives,
              3 Electronics, 2 Maneuvering, 3 Gunnery - Other,
              2 Command, 1 Steward and 1 Medic.

Notes

     Catullus Aerospace presents its first quasi-military starship. The
'Greek Fire' class Mercenary Cruiser is designed to meet the needs of the
Imperial contracted mercenary group or corporate security organisation. We
would also be delighted to assist any planetary governments in discussing
how a contingent of 'Greek Fire' class ships could assist in fulfilling
their local security and rapid military deployment requirements.
     Armed with 4 of the latest, and most powerful yet, Sylea Industry
approved heavy laser turrets, alongside 4 standard heavy missile turrets, a
'Greek Fire' class starship is your company's ace in the hole for that hot
drop into hostile territory. You need no longer hope that a decent
percentage of your lightly armed shuttles, or temperamental drop capsules,
arrive safely. Now the fire support for your elite shock troops can come
with them all in one package.
     With these advanced weapons systems and the provision of 4 of the
recently released 'Guard' type sandcasters, your 'Greek Fire' starships can
also be used for anti-pirate operations such as base attacks or
neutralisation and boarding operations. The advanced communications suite
also allows its use as an orbital support and command platform, or even for
control of an orbit against a non-military opponent.
     Each 'Greek Fire' ship is capable of carring up to 40 troops. This
includes provision for a planning room for the troop and shared large
quarters for every two soldiers. This means that your troops arrive in prime
condition and preperation for the upcoming battle. Support facilities
include a full medical bay allowing for immediate treatment in safe
conditions of any casualties.
     Separate large staterooms are provided for the Captain and First
Officer of the ship. All other crew are accomodated two to a large stateroom. 
     For wilderness operation, or in a hostile location, fuel scoops have
been provided which will fill the ships' fuel tanks in a single hour, giving
you maximum flexibility. The scooped fuel can then be refined in 10 hours.
     Two Modular Cutters are provided to increase the flexibility of the
Mercenary Cruiser. These allow the despatch of negotiation teams, orbital
surveillance of multiple locations, and rapid dropoff and pickup
capabilities. Details of these modular cutters are shown below.

Design Details

Spaceship Name: Greek Fire Class
Tech Level: 12
Displacement: 800

                         Mass    Volume  SurfArea     Power     Price
800Std SL Sph A:80 2G  2104.9  -11035.8   -2378         0.008    2.003
J2 Jump Drive          1008       336       112         0      100.8
2G T-Plates             800       400        80       400      100
251Mj HvyLsr(x4)        589.86    361.6      67        30.98    35.32
HvyMslTrt(x4)           312.7     361.6      67         3.7     26.04
TL12 SandcstrTrt(x4)    231.1     193.6      43         3.5     28.8
Stndrd Auto Dyn Cntrls    1.176    11.76      0         0.84     1.26
TL12 Mil SensorPckg      55.4      37.9     288       106.8     74.91
Stndrd Life Sup          89.6      89.6       0         2.24     5.6
Artificial Gravity      224       112         0        56        5.6
Large Stateroom (x21)    84      1176         0         0.021    2.1
Large Stateroom (x12)    48       672         0         0.012    1.2
EM Masking              112       224       112        11.2     56
100Std/6 hrs FPP       1120       560         0         8.4      0.112
100%/hr Fuel Scoops       0         0       594.5       0        0.045
250MW TL12 Fusion (x2) 1000       250         0      -500       50
100MW TL12 Fusion (x2)  400       100         0      -200       20
Bridge WorkStn (x7)       1.4      98         0         0        0.011
Regular WorkStn (x8)      1.6      56         0         0        0.012
Sick Bay                 50       112         0         0.8      5
Min Hngr 50Std          280      1400       126         0        0.41
Docking Ring 50Std        0       700       126         0        0.41
Cargo                   350      1400         0         0        0
Large Cargo Hatch(x4)     0         0        80         0        0.08
Fuel                    164.15   2345         0         0        0
Total                  9027.9     -38.781  -682.5     -71.899  515.823


This Traveller spaceship was created using SSDSCalc 1.00, written by James
Dempsey. Traveller is a registered trademark of Farfuture Enterprises. All
rights reserved.


The modular cutter below is a design by Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>,
which was posted to the TML in February, 1997.

Modular Cutter/Thruster (Starship-V2)

Tons: 50Std (Ndl SL)    Volume: 700 m3          Cost: 38.004 MCr
Crew: 2                 High/Mid Pass: 0        Lo Pass: 0
Cargo: 5Std             Controls: Std           TL: 12

 7 Size                             0 Jump drive
 0 Fire Control                     4 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 70 MW)
                                    3.3 Power Plant (82 MW)
                                    0.9 Fuel (Scoop 30)
                                    0 Meson Screen (0 MW)
                                    0 Sandcasters (0 cans)
                                    0 Nuclear Damper
                                0.01A 2P 0J Sensors
                                   20 Armor     6 Structure

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics
Accom: Cockpit
Average density: 1 ton/m3.
Notes: Price includes one 30 DT cargo module

Modular Cutter: The Modular Cutter is a multi-purpose cargo vehicle which
can be fitted with a variety of 30-ton (420 m3) modules. The outer shell of
the cutter's mid part open as a large cargo hatch, and a module is attached
to the cutter's spine between the cockpit and engine. The cargo hold has
lighter armor that the rest of the cutter (AV 20, Armor 10), but counts as
normal armor (AV 40, Armor 20) when a cargo module is carried internally.
The cutter has build-in fuel scoops which are used only when a fuel module
is or flexible 30 DT fuel bladder is fitted in the cargo hold. The external
dimensions of cargo modules are 4.60 x 25.26 m.

30-ton Cargo Module

Tons: 30Std (Ndl USL)    Volume: 420 m3         Cost: 83 kCr
Crew: 0                  High/Mid Pass: 0       Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 29.6Std           Controls: None         TL: 12

 7 Size                            10 Armor, 4 Structure

Cargo Module: Cargo modules are lightly armored interchangeable cargo
containers carried internally in the modular cutter. The cargo module has
414 m3 (29.6 DT) internal volume, and can withstand 4G acceleration. The
mass of fully loaded cargo module is 195 tons.


30-ton Troop Carrier Module

Tons: 30Std (Ndl USL)    Volume: 420 m3         Cost: 134 kCr
Crew: 0                  High/Mid Pass: 0       Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 1.5Std            Controls: None         TL: 12

 7 Size                            10 Armor, 4 Structure

Accom: 32 adequate seats, 10 DT minimal hangar

Troop Carrier Module: The troop carrier module is used to transport soldiers
and vehicles to surface targets. The module contains 10 DT minimal hangar,
1.5 DT cargo space, and seats for 32 troopers. The hangar may contain any
suitable large vehicle (large truck or a huge tank) or mix of smaller
vehicles (5 APCs or IFVs) as long as the total displacement of carried
vehicles does not exceed 10 DT.

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:56:15 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: THUDDD Ballot

Please return a ballot (Like the one at the end of this message) to me:

tiger@goldinc.com

Before Midnight, March 16, 1997 with the Subject line:

THUDD Vote (March)

I will then tally the votes and report the results.

Please Remember the Voting guidelines I posted earlier and follow them
(especially the part about not voting for your own entry).  If anyone needs
a copy of these guidelines, fell free to email me and ask. :)


SAMPLE BALLOT (THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE, FOR YOUR REPLY, USE THE BALLOT AT
THE END OF THIS MESSAGE)

************************************************************
BALLOT
Name/eMail:   Paul Walker,   tiger@goldinc.com
************************************************************
Best Overall Design:
   1. XYZCCC Class Ship
         Submitted by: Bozo the Clown
   2. Gracht Class Ship
         Submitted by: Vargr the Clown
   3. Ft'lous Class Ship
         Submitted by: Aslan the Clown

************************************************************
Most Likely to Use in a Game:
   1. And so on Class Assault Vessel.
         Submitted by: Etcetera
   2. You see what I mean Class Attack Ship
         Submitted by: U Must B Crazy 2
   3. Keep Following on Line this Class Troop Transport and Support
         Submitted by: CopyCat

************************************************************
Closest to Design Paramaters:
   1. Gratuitous Reference to Trav IRC Class Ship
         Submitted by: Suz owes me now.
   2. Read ISBAML Class Vessel
         Submitted by: My very own plug! :)
   3. I'm Running out of Foolishness Class Assault Transport
         Submitted by: Short Attention span

************************************************************
Cheapest Efficient Design:  (note, this is not the cheapest design)
   1. Is anybody still reading
         Submitted by: No we aren't
   2. Did you Notice?
         Submitted by: We don't care.
   3. I dropped the Class Ship
         Submitted by: Did U think We R Dullards.

************************************************************
Most Interesting Design:
   1. I think this has gone too far
         I think so too
   2. Hey where's the Submitted by:
         Got Bored and Left
   3. Oh, well, I'm gone too.
         See ya later.

************************************************************
************************************************************


Entries

Condottieri-class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
Submitted by:   Idiot/Savant   idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz

Heracules Class Mercenary Cruiser(SSDS)
Submitted by:   John J. Long   jlong@mail2.wilmington.net

Huscarle class assault cruiser (QSDS v1.5)
Submitted by:   Shane Thomas   s.n.thomas@aelfgyva.demon.co.uk

"Horus" class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
Submitted by:   Craig Berry   cberry@cinenet.net

Auroro Aglo (Dawn Eagle) class Support Cruiser (Type SC) (SSDS)
Submitted By:   Chris Cox   chriscox@ix.netcom.com

The Cobra Class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
Submitted By:   Colin Hollands   cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com

Warrior-Class Paramilitary Transport (SSDS)
Submitted by:   J_Lambert   J_Lambert@compuserve.com

Greek Fire Class (SSDS)
Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THIS IS THE ACTUAL BALLOT TO USE:


************************************************************
BALLOT
Name/eMail:   
************************************************************
Best Overall Design:
   1. 
         
   2. 
         
   3. 
         

************************************************************
Most Likely to Use in a Game:
   1. 
         
   2. 
         
   3. 
         

************************************************************
Closest to Design Paramaters:
   1. 
         
   2. 
         
   3. 
         

************************************************************
Cheapest Efficient Design:  (note, this is not the cheapest design)
   1. 
         
   2. 
         
   3. 
         

************************************************************
Most Interesting Design:
   1. 
         
   2. 
         
   3. 
         

************************************************************
************************************************************



    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:55:59 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

Harald Budschedl wrote:
> 
> I myself thought about introducing a martial-Arts skilltable for
> traveller.
> 

In my campaign I assume that a sufficiently high level of Brawling
(like 3+) qualifies as knowledge in some form of martial arts.
This implementation is simple and doesn't require a separate skill.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:09:51 +0000
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: resource material

At 23:26 10/03/97 -0500, Andrew Boulton wrote:
>
><< 3) Iain Banks - SF books generally - not quite Traveller, but nice. >>
>
>'nice'? *NICE?* Banksie's books (with or without the M) ain't 'nice' in 
>the slightest!
>

Tell me about it.  On my train trips to work I have to read two Pratchetts
after each Banks to cheer myself back up again.  Brilliant stuff though.
"Consider Phlebas" has a particularly Travelleresque mercenaries in a ship
section.

>Worth reading just for the ship names...
>

Yeah, like the GSV "Size Isn't Everything" (which is over 80km long), or
"Only Slightly Bent", "Ultimate Ship The Second", etc.

Cheers,
Liam

- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1060
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1061



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Re: BD / Jujitsu
[none]
Re: What happened....
Re: Suerrat (was Re: Alien Book)
THUDDD Entries
More THUDDD Entries

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:41:13 +0000
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

Douglas Berry wrote:
>
>At 11:49 AM 3/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>>> 
>>>         I've just come to the startling theological realization that there
>>> is a Fourth [sic] Horseman of the Apocalypse.  His name is Really
>Annoying People
>>> Who Write Posts (Often 1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat
>>> Things Attached To The End.

I was one of those people :-(.

People tried to help me, and, for some time, the problem faded, only to
return at embarrasing and in-opportune moments.  I consulted secret,
Ancient texts, which promised much, but always said "for some reason, this
doesn't always work" in the small print.  I thought I was going to have to
construct my own private universe to hide in, never communicating with the
outside again... until I discovered Eudora.

Now I no longer suffer from "=" at the end of each line, or attachments
longer than my messages.  I'm not a WINMAIL.DAT, I'm a free man!

Cheers,
Liam

- --
begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
M>)\^(BX&`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <`
M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$

[only joking ;-)]
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:53:41 +0000
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: BD / Jujitsu

At 23:26 10/03/97 -0500, Mused wrote:
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > And as far as akido against BD augmented senses, reflexes, and
>> > muscles...heh....heheheheheheh....
>> 
>> Jujitsu or something similar *will* work. The basic idea is to get your
>> opponents strength and relexes to work *against* him. So, while it may
>> be harder to do to a person in BD, when you pull it off, the results
>> will be *spectacular*.
>
>eeeerrrrr, no
>BD weighs something like 300 kg. Would a ju-jitsu specialist be able to
throw a gorilla (I 
>would bet no myself)

Remember, "throwing" someone in Jujitsu or aikido does not mean lifting
them up and launching them somewhere else, but taking their balance and
"helping" them to meet the ground.  However, it works best against someone
with *low* reflexes and poor balance and I think a battle dress equipped
marine would be anything but.

Given the right circumstances, it *might* (although I'm pretty doubtful) be
possible for a martial artist to throw our BD equipped friend, but they
certainly aren't going to be able to keep them pinned on the floor with any
wrist locks ;-).

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 10:31:28 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: [none]

>Whenever.  I'm not sure when I'll get to put them up, but I have gotten
>things somewhat under control and I have a system to keep it handy until I
>can get it up.
Okay, I'll send them along in the next few days.


>Well, really I included it in case you or I decided to add it later and for
>the standarized issues I already mentioned.  I want all ships to look the
>same, all characters to look the same, etc.  That is the main reason for it.

Ok, I'll add in some of the missing entries, so they are all the same.

>Hey, sorry ti took me so long to do this, but everything looks real good as
>far as I could tell.  

Thanks, since I copied some of the stuff  from your page, and I got
most of the basic HTML code from you, I figured you should check it out first.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is yellow, smooth and deadly?
A:Shark infested pudding.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:43:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: What happened....

   Hi.

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
   [and Andrew Boulton as well, I believe]

   Wow, what brought this spate of simplistic political analysis to a
   mailing list devoted to Traveller?

>> Which is, of course, a place of peace and harmony, living happily 
>> alongside its neighbours...

   Definitely not, but the death rate due to violence in Israel is lower
   than in the US. As far as relations with other countries go, in the
   last 30 years, Israel has gone to war fewer times than the US has.

> ... and dumping blood donated by its African citizens, and refusing to allow
> non-Jews citizenship, and allowing the ultra-orthodox to run wild in an
> attempt to inflict a strict theocratic state.

   Israel has Arab citizens (those Arabs who live in Israel proper, not
   those who live in the "occupied territories" of the West Bank and
   Gaza.)  And I'm not sure what restrictions you would advocate that a
   democracy should place on its religious citizens.

> Sorry, but I've always been wary of any state founded to support a single
> religion, too much potential for abuse.

   Apology accepted, but surely you are aware that the majority in the
   Knesset is non-religious. Israel was founded to support a
   racial/ethnic group, just like the nation states of Europe and Asia
   (and, for that matter, the Americas to some extant). All states have
   potential for abuse.

> Back to Traveller:  How do y'all handle the type D and E governments in your
> campaigns?

   Other than Pysadie/Aramis, I've never had to deal with governments of
   type D or E; they are simply too rare and have never come up in my
   campaign. I dealt with Pysadie/Aramis pretty much along the lines
   detailed by "The Traveller Adventure."  My only quandary came up when
   the players had fled the planet (they were being held their after
   inadvertently becoming priests of the local religion).  The Pysadians
   tried to get them extradited to return to captivity. Normally the
   Imperium will send criminals back to a planet to stand trial, and I
   had to think of a reason why it would not do that in this case.  My
   ultimate reason was that the jury at the extradition just decided not
   to convict because they found the law silly, so the players did not
   become fugitives simply for fleeing Pysadi. Obviously, they could
   never return to Pysadi again, or they would be found guilty of
   fleeing and punished.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:07:31 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Suerrat (was Re: Alien Book)

At 09:05 PM 3/10/97 EST,  Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett wrote:

...
>That's close to what the rest of us know too.  :-)  We know from that
>picture that they're shortish and furry.  

Ughh... These guys aren't, like, Fuzzy Sapiens, are they?  Bllecchhhh....

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:22:15 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: THUDDD Entries

Well, due to some fluke of computers, my eMail program ate the first THUDDD
post of this spouting something about it being too big.  So I split it into
two bite sized chunks and maybe it can swallow them now.  Here are the first
8 entries (and here James Dempsey thought he was the only one.)

>Greetings fellow sapients!
>
>Here are the entries for the most recent THUDDD.  Following shortly in
>another message will be the official ballot to return with your votes.  But
>first, the entries...
>
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=
>New Victoria Condottieri-class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
>
>Submitted by:   Idiot/Savant   idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
>
>Tons: 800Std(Cyl AF)   Volume: 11200 m3       Cost: 423.6 MCr {*}
>Crew: 24               High/Mid Pass: 3/45    Low: 4
>Cargo: 45Std {1}       Controls: CivStd (B)   TL: 12
>
>08 Size                              02 Jump Drive (80 Std/Pc Fuel)
>                                     02 Maneuver (Thruster, 406 Mw)
>02x MilLsrBat(+4) 1/03-03-02-00      02 Power Plant (750Mw + 200Mw)
>02x Msl Trt (+4) 04/04              180 Fuel (Scoop 320, Refine 10)
> w/ 20 Msl                           00 Meson Screen
>                                     02 Sandcasters (60 Cans)
>02x SL Grpl (30Std Ship's Boat)      00 Nuclear Damper
>01x Min Hngr (30Std) {2}            A10 P4 J10 Sensors
>01x Min Hngr (10Std) {3}             20 Armor, 21 Structure
>
>Crew Detail: 3 Command, 2 Sensors, 5 Gunners, 3 Engineer, 2 Steward,
>             6 Small Craft, 1 Medic, 2 Maneuver.
> Passengers: 45 Troops, 3 Officers
>
>Notes:
>   {1} plus 8 Std armory/ship's locker
>   {2} 2 * Tracked ATV
>   {3} serves as hanger for 2 * Air/Raft
>   {*} Price breakdown:
>       Vessel                    MCr 390.3 (520.3 before discount)
>       2x 30std Ships Boats      MCr  32.0
>       2x Air/rafts              MCr   1.2
>       2x tacked ATVs            MCr   0.06
>            Total:               MCr 423.56
>
>   [I am unsure of the actual cost of attached vehicles - these are CT=
> figures]
>
>     New Victoria Naval Architects LIC is proud to present its entry for the
>THUDD Mercenary Cruiser design contest. Named for a group of mercenaries in
>ancient Solomani history, the "Condottieri" class is capable of transporting
>a small military unit and its associated equipment and support personnel,
>and providing both logistical and fire support in the field. As this is a
>military design, it is available only to buyers with a valid end-user
>certificate; currently it is being marketed at friendly planetary
>governments, Imperial corporations, and (to a lesser extent) private
>mercenary groups. The Imperial Navy are also evaluating the design for use
>as a military auxillary.
>     Standard fittings include excellent command and control facilities: the
>vessel has an advanced communications suite capable of directing an
>engagement from orbit, as well as military-grade sensors with ECM
>capability. The spacious bridge includes three extra workstations, allowing
>for "courtesy" stations for the troop commander and his staff (or
>alternatively, emergency crewing of the MFD-controlled missile turrets). A
>16 dspT briefing room is also installed, providing space for both briefings
>and operational planning.
>     Fourty-five small staterooms are provided for the transport of troops,
>as well as three large staterooms for command personnel. While it is
>envisaged that these rooms will be used at single occupancy to carry a large
>platoon, buyers willing to pay the associated morale and comfort penalties
>could concievably use the vessel to support a light company of 96 troops.
>However, such usage is not reccomended as standard by NVNA, and <<<<LEGAL
>DISCLAIMER DELETED>>>>. The crew are also provided with individual small
>staterooms (large for command staff), and again double occupancy can be used
>to add extra personnel. And in the event of underutilisation, unused
>staterooms can easily be converted to extra recreational space.
>     Vehicle storage is both spacious and flexible - a ten dspT (minimal)
>hanger provides spacious berthing for standard scouting and utility vehicles
>(Air/Rafts or HMMVs) but will easily hold a G-carrier or ATV for those who
>like to reconnoiter in force, while a thirty dspT (minimal) hanger provides
>adequete space for the transport detachment. In addition, a vehicle shop is
>provided for field maintenance. Cargo is one dspT per soldier - 45 dspT in
>all - and there is also 8 dspT of secure storage for use as an armoury /
>ship's locker. The extensive medical facilities include a four-bed sickbay,
>as well as four low berths for critical cases. Landing operations are
>supported by two 30 dspT Ships Boats in external grapples, the cost of which
>are included in the purchase price, as well as two air/rafts and two ATVs.
>     The weapons systems were chosen for a balanced offensive / defensive
>capability, the dual missile and sandcater turrets being provided for naval
>engagements, with two military laser batteries also providing ortillery
>capability with MFD-pinpoint accuracy (thus avoiding those embarrasing
>"friendly fire" situations). In addition, the Ships Boats can also be armed
>to provide local fire support.
>
>DESIGN SEQUENCE:
>
>                          Crew    Volume      Cost   Surface    Power
>Hull-Cyl AF-12                    <755.6>     41.9   <2681.6>   138.2
>Jump-2           Eng       0.8      24.0     100.8	 112.0=20
>Jump Fuel                          160.0
>Thrusters (2G)   Eng       1.0      29.0     101.5      82.0    406.0
>Controls(StdCiv-12)                  1.7       9.2       0.3      1.3
>Snsrs(SmlMil-12) Elc       0.8       1.2      62.5      44.6     85.2
>Commo(Adv-12)    Elc       0.8       0.0       2.0     203.0     21.5
>Missile turret             0.0       3.0       0.1      10.0      0.2
>Missile turret             0.0       3.0       0.1      10.0      0.2
>MFD (+4)         Gun       1.0       2.3      25.6       2.1      3.1=20
>Magazine (16 msls)                   8.0
>MilLsr(+4)       Gun       1.0      14.3      31.6      42.1    136.4
>    1/3-3-2-0
>MilLsr(+4)       Gun       1.0      14.3      31.6      42.1    136.4
>    1/3-3-2-0
>Sandcstr(30cans) Gun       1.0       3.0       0.8      10.0      1.0
>Sandcstr(30cans) Gun       1.0       3.0       0.8      10.0      1.0
>Sickbay(4bed)                       16.0      10.0                1.6
>Vehicle Shop                        10.0       2.0                1.0
>30Std Grapple (SL)                   9.0       0.3     762.0
>30Std Grapple (SL)                   9.0       0.3     762.0
>30Std Ship's Boat Sml      2.0                30.0
>30Std Ship's Boat Sml      2.0                30.0
>10Std min hngr                      20.0       0.1      49.0=20
>20Std min hngr                      40.0       0.2      64.0
>Fuel Purif (10T/hr)                 24.0       0.1                5.0
>Fusion [750+200]  Eng      1.1      33.9      95.0             <950.0>
>Fuel tankage                        20.0
>Bridge w/ 18 w/s                    18.0
>6 Lg Srooms                         24.0       0.6
>66 Sm SRooms                       132.0       2.64
>4 Low Berths                         4.0       0.2
>Briefing Room                       15.9       0.4
>Armoury                              8.0
>General Cargo                       45.0
>
>
>Totals:                                      520.34   2262.2
>Less QSDS Discount:                          390.3
>Plus Carried Craft:
>   2 * 30T Ship's Boat @MCr 16                32.0
>   2 * Tracked ATV @ MCr0.03                   0.06
>   2 * Air/Raft @MCr 0.6                       1.2
>                                             423.56
>
>Crew:
>   Engineering                2.9      3
>   Electronics                1.6      2
>   Maneuver                   2.0      2
>   Gunnery                    5.0      5
>   Small Craft                6.0      6
>   Command                    3.0      3
>   Mid Passangers (troops)   45.0     45
>   High Passangers(troops)    3.0      3
>   Stewards                   2.0      2
>   Medic                      1.0      1
>        Total:                        72
>
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D
>Long Yard's Heracules Class Mercenary Cruiser(SSDS)
>
>Submitted by:   John J. Long   jlong@mail2.wilmington.net
>
>Tons: 900Std(SLDm/Dsc) Volume: 12600 m^3      Cost: 712.114 MCr
>Crew: 19               High/Med Pass: 6/40    Low: 4
>Cargo: 100 Std         Controls: Mil (Fib)(B) TL: 12
>
>
>08 Size                               2 Jump Drive (90 Std/Pc Fuel)
> 1x 251Mj HvyLsr (+4) 1/3-2-1-0       3 Maneuver (1G High Eff CG,
>                                            59.99Mw; 2G T-Plates,
>                                            450Mw)
> 1x HvyMsl Turret (+4) 2/4            4 Power Plant (2x1000Mw)
>    Missiles                        201 Fuel (Refine 2, Scoop 20)
>                                      3 Meson Screen (10Mw)
> 2x Min Hngr (50Std)                  2 Sandcasters (32)
>                                      1 Nuclear Damper
>                                    A10 P4 J10 Sensors (-3 Masking)
>                                     30 Armour, 15 Structure
>
>Crew Detail: 1 Maintenance, 2 Eng-Power Plant, 3 Eng-Drives,
>             3 Electronics, 2 Maneuvering, 5 Gunnery-Other, 2 Command,
>             1 Steward
>40 Troops-listed as middle passengers for construction purposes.
>
>Notes
>     The Long Yards Heracules Class Mercenary Cruiser is a TL 12 Streamlined
>Dome/Disc hull with 9 airlocks. Jump Fuel held allows for 2 parsecs travel.
>1G High Efficiency ContraGravity. 2G Thruster Plates. High auto Dynamic
>Controls. Installed inertial compensators will compensate for up to 2G. Two
>50 ton Modular cutters are the intended Ships auxillaries, being used as
>landing ships for the Mercenary contingent and then as Air Support for said
>troops. Enough cargo room is available next to the flight bays to store two
>extra 30ton modules of the purchaser's choice, and 60 tons of extra fuel is
>carried for the cutters as well. The price does not include the cost of the
>Modular Cutters or the extra modules
>     A full sickbay with four emergency low berths is available, as well as
>a full electronics and machine shop. Although small these are quite fully
>equipped to handle any repairs necessary for the ship or it's company.
>     The Ship itself carries enough armament and sufficient defenses to act
>as a planetary base camp in low to moderate intensity operations. The ship
>naturally can land but is more often intended to be used as heavey fire
>support or =91Artillery=92 for the mercenary contingent.
>
>Design Details
>Tech Level: 12
>Displacement: 900
>
>                         Mass    Volume  SurfArea     Power      Price
>900StdSLDm/Dsc(A80/2G) 2744.7  -12390.1   -3104         0.009   4.1036
>2-Jump Drive           1134       378       126         0     113.4
>1G High Eff CG          119.997   180       180        59.994  18
>2G T-Plates             900       450        90       450     112.5
>251Mj HvyLsr(x2)        310.48    193.6      35        44.92   30.46
>HvyMsl Tur(x2)          171.9     193.6      35         3.4    25.82
>TL8 Sandcstr Tur(x2)    131.1     109.6      23         5.1    26.8
>TL12 NucDamp Bay         76.2      83         7.5      15       2.05
>TL12 MesonScrn Bay      155       207       100        10      20.7
>HighAuto DynCntrl         1.449    14.49      0         1.035   1.5525
>TL12 Military            55.4      37.9     288       106.8    74.91
>Std Life Sup            100.8     100.8       0         2.52    6.3
>Artificial Grav         252       126         0        63       6.3
>Min Hngr 50Std(x2)      280      1400       125.44      0       0.281
>EM Masking              126       252       126        12.6    63
>FPP(x200)               160        80         0         1.2     0.032
>Fuel Scoops(x10)          0         0        78.05      0       0.0059
>1000MW TL12 Fusion(x2) 4000      1000         0     -2000     200
>Bridge WorkStn(x8)        1.6     112         0         0       0.012
>Regular WorkStn(x18)      3.6     126         0         0       0.027
>Electronics Shop         40        84         0         0.6     1
>Machine Shop            120       140         0         1       2
>Large Strm(x8)           32       448         0         0.008   0.8
>Small Strm(x40)          80      1120         0         0.02    1.6
>Emrg Lo Berth(x4)         8       112         0         0.008   0.4
>Cargo                   210       840         0         0       0
>Cargo                   140       560         0         0       0
>Large Cargo Hatch(x3)     0         0        60         0       0.06
>Sml Crft Fuel            60       840         0         0       0
>Fuel                    197.4    2820         0         0       0
>Total                 11611.6    -382.15  -1830.01  -1222.79  712.114
>
>Passengers
>   Type     Number
>   Low      4
>   Middle   40
>   High     6
>
>Crew
>   Type                Number
>   Maintenance         1
>   Eng - Power Plant   2
>   Eng - Drives        3
>   Electronics         3
>   Maneuvering         2
>   Gunnery - Other     5
>   Command             2
>   Stewards            1
>   Medical             0.74
>   Total crew         19
>
>This Traveller spaceship was created using SSDSCalc 1.00, written by James
>Dempsey. Traveller is a registered trademark of Farfuture Enterprises. All
>rights reserved.
>
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*
>ASASA Huscarle class assault cruiser (QSDS v1.5)
>
>Submitted by:   Shane Thomas   s.n.thomas@aelfgyva.demon.co.uk
>
>Tons: 1000Std (SLSph)  Volume: 14000 m3       Cost: 465.4 MCr
>Crew: 25               High/Mid Pass: 0       Low: 0
>Cargo: 0Std(see notes) Controls: Mil (B)      TL: 12
>
>
> 9 Size                               2 Jump Drive (100 Std/Pc Fuel)
>                                      2 Maneuver (Gravitic, 504Mw)
> 2x Lsr Bat (+4) 1/4-4-3-2            2.42 Power Plant
>                                              (1000Mw+200Mw+10Mw)
>10x Msl Bar (+0) 5/5                210.3 Fuel (Scoop 400, Refine 10)
>                                      0 Meson Screen
> 1x Launch port (50Std craft)         0 Sandcasters
>10x Launch Port (20Std craft)         0 Nuclear Damper
> 1x 200Std Hngr (see notes)         A10 P10 J10 Sensors
>                                     20 Armour     23 Structure
>
>Crew Detail: 3 Command, 2 Electronics, 12 Gunnery, 4 Engineering,=20
>             2 Maneuver, 2 Medical, 150 Troops
>
>Notes:
>The hull is from Wildstar's huge table of hulls.  1x 16 bed sickbay.  1x
>Vehicle shop.  The 200 Std jump fuel tankage is as collapsible dismountable
>tanks.  The 200 Std hanger is a general open space for hangarage of any
>small  craft/vehicles and/or cargo accompanying the troops. Cost assuming
>max. occupancy with 10 ton craft (worst case). The 150 troops are considered
>to be strictly passengers (ie NOT ships troops), and are therefore not
>considered as part of the crew.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>The new ASASA Huscarle class assault cruiser is the first design to come out
>of the ASASA shipyards following the recent acquisition of Cygnus Jump
>Systems Pty and Far Horizons Shipbuilding Ltd.  This new design is intended
>to transport and support a company sized body of troops in potentially
>opposed operations, and should prove ideal for use by corporate or mercenary
>teams.
>The Huscarle has been built around a standard 1000 ton spherical hull,
>exclusively using QSDS compatible components to allow repairs to be made
>quickly and easily at any class A or B starport, without having to carry on
>board hard to obtain custom parts.
>An ASASA (formerly Cygnus Jump Systems) CJS-30/2 jump drive gives the
>Huscarle a range of 2 parsecs; the 200 tons of jump fuel carried internally
>(in collapsible dismountable tanks for maximum flexibility) is sufficient
>for a single maximum range jump. In system maneuvering, utilising four ASASA
>"Merlin X" gravitic thrusters, can be performed at a sustained acceleration
>of 2g.
>The Huscarle is fully streamlined permitting atmospheric operations and is
>capable of wilderness refueling from gas giants or suitable bodies of water;
>the onboard ASASA HP-24 fuel purification plant is capable of processing a
>full fuel load in 21 hours.
>1210 MW of onboard power is provided by a coupled system of three ASASA
>Prometheus series fusion reactors.  10.3 tons of L-Hyd fuel tankage is
>dedicated to the reactors, allowing 290 days of continuous operation at
>maximum output.
>Controls, sensors and communications (full details of the systems provided
>are available on request) are the highest specification QSDS compatible
>systems that can be fitted into a hull of this size.
>The standard weapons systems provided on the Huscarle are 10 ASASA "Archer
>III" missile barbettes and two ASASA "Vindicator II" laser batteries; these
>systems are capable of operating in ship-to-ship, ortillery and close ground
>support modes.  Bridge workstations, allowing remote weapon operation, are
>of course fitted as standard.
>A 16 bed state of the art sickbay is included to provide medical facilities;
>facilities for two medics are included as part of the standard crew
>complement in addition to any that may be part of the troop detachment.
>The ship's Captain is accommodated in a large stateroom, the remaining crew
>being supplied with small staterooms.
>Many designs currently available for the role only allow maximum of around
>40 troops to be carried.  ASASA consider this to be too small except in
>highly specialised situations and therefore the Huscarle offers acommodation
>for a total of 150 troops: 8 small staterooms for officers and/or senior
>NCO's and 142 bunks for the troopers.
>Once in jump space the 200 tons of (now empty) jump fuel tankage can be
>collapsed, providing an additional 150 tons of space for the troops to use
>whislt preparing for their mission.
>200 tons of hangarage/cargo hold and a vehicle workshop is provided for the
>company's equipment and vehicles.
>
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=
>
>    Paul {tiger}
>     tiger@goldinc.com
>     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger
>
>

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:22:01 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: More THUDDD Entries

>"Horus" class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
>
>Submitted by:   Craig Berry   cberry@cinenet.net
>
>Tons: 1000Std (Ndl SL) Volume: 14000 m3       Cost: 535.5 MCr
>Crew: 77               Hi/Mid: 0              Low: 0
>Cargo: 1.8Std          Controls: Fib/Bridge   TL: 12
>
> 9 Size                               2 Jump (100 Std/Pc Fuel)
>                                      2 Man (T-plate, 20000 T/Thr)
> 2x Lsr Trt(+4) 1/3-2-0-0             2.15 Power Plant (1000 + 75 MW)
> 1x Meson Gn(+4) 2/3-2-0-0          211.5 Fuel (S 400 R 5)
>                                      1 Meson Screen (1 MW)
>                                      4 Sandcasters (120 cans)
>                                      1 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
>                                    A10 P4 J10 Sensors
>                                     10 Armor     18 Structure
>                                     90 Length (m)
>
>Crew 77 (2 elec, 4 engr, 2 mnvr, 7 gun, 5 scrn, 4 craft, 40 troops,=20
>         11 cmd, 2 medic)
>
> 2 minimal hangars for standard 50 Std cutters.
> 1 vehicle shop
>1 4-bed sickbay
>70 small staterooms
>10 large staterooms
>10 emergency low berths
>
>Advanced comm suite
>
>***
>
>     Ce Acatl Corporation is very proud to announce its entry for the second
>THUDDD design competition.  The "Horus" class Mercenary Cruiser uses
>state-of-the-art technology, coupled with CAC's century of small-warship
>design experience, to deliver maximum flexibility and firepower in a small
>troop insertion starship.
>     The emphasis in our Horus design is on survivability.  A Merc Cruiser
>is not normally deployed into a system unless space superiority has already
>been established; the class's small size, weak armaments, and operational
>profile make any other use very risky.  The major threats to an MC are:
>     * Lurking System Defense Boats (SDBs),
>     * Deep-meson sites on the highest tech worlds, and
>     * Small-unit fire during opposed landings.
>
>     We've taken each of these into account in our Horus design.  A powerful
>meson gun, coupled with twin dual-laser turrets, will make any SDB think
>twice before tangling with a Horus.  The meson gun is also ideal as an
>orbital artillery ("ortillery") weapon for suppressing defending forces
>during ground assaults, or as counterbattery fire against deep meson sites.
>     Defensively, the Horus really shines.  Quad sandcasters, a nuclear
>damper, and a meson screen, lasers, and hull armor protect the ship against
>all major categories of space weaponry.
>     Because we know that a tired, unhappy soldier is an ineffective
>soldier, the Horus features the roomiest crew and troop quarters ever
>available on a ship in this or any similar class.  The troop quarters are
>highly reconfigurable, allowing modular reuse of unused quarters space as
>additional storage area, training rooms, or shop space.
>     It is a sad fact of life that the troops and crew aboard a Merc Cruiser
>are subject to serious injuries, often far from the nearest hospital. That's
>why our Horus MC provides a four-bed sickbay for on-the-spot treatment, plus
>a large emergency low-berth capacity (more than half the standard crew
>level!) for stabilizing those patients whose injuries can only be treated at
>a hospital.
>      In keeping with Ce Acatl's commitment to Open Standards, the Horus is
>not delivered with the two 50-ton cutters which it can carry.  We feel that
>other manufacturers produce better 50-ton assault cutter designs than we
>could produce on our own...and when you're going into combat, you want the
>very best.  Our sales department will happily assist Horus purchasers in
>obtaining appropriate cutters on a third-party basis, should this be=
> desired.
>     Finally, the Horus is designed with maintainability in mind.  Every
>system on board is built from standard, off-the-shelf components readily
>available throughout Sylean space (and beyond).  We don't want our customers
>postponing critical operations for weeks just because the nearest phase
>diode junction that will fit the thruster coils is five parsecs away. With
>the Horus, spare parts are usually only as far away as the nearest starport.
>This use of standard components also accounts for the attractive base price
>we can offer on the Horus.
>     The Horus Mercenary Cruiser:  Reliable, powerful, flexible...and
>inexpensive. Don't start your next operation without one!
>
>***
>
>Designer's notes:
>
>     The vehicle shop is intended as a combined shop for engineering,
>vehicle maintenance, and so forth.  I used the vehicle shop stats as that's
>the larger of the two shops described.
>     Cargo space is obviously low; that's why I describe the troop quarters
>as modular and configurable.  If your mercs are willing to double-bunk or
>whatever, then more power to them; you can buy back some space that way.
>Similarly, the 10 large staterooms are there because I didn't expect that
>the upper tier of command staff would be willing to sleep in anything
>smaller; if your crew feel differently, there's a bit more room as well.
>     The ship doesn't have missiles for several reasons:
>     * With space so tight, the last thing we need is another
>       consumable to lug around.
>     * In my mind, a merc cruiser should be operationally self-
>       sufficient; you can run out of missiles, but (with scooping)
>       you can't run out of power.
>     * There wasn't enough room for MFDs without sacrificing something
>       else.
>
>     Finally, needless to say, this puppy is 200 tons bigger than the
>classic Happy Fun Ball, and a different shape as well.  Given its
>configuration, my working name for it was "The Ball Popper." :)
>
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>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D
>Gladius-class Light Paramilitary Transport
>
>Submitted By:   scharlto@avalon.com
>
>Tons: 600Std SL Slab   Volume:8400 m3         Cost: 423.66375 MCr
>Crew: 25 (74)          High/Mid Psg: 0        Low: 5
>Cargo: 10Std              Controls: Fib/B        TL: 12
>
> 8 Size                              2 Jump (140 Std 2pc)
>                                     2 Maneuver (Thrusters, 308MW)
> 2x Lsr Bat(+4)1/4-4-3-2             3 Power (5x 200MW)
> 4x Msl Barb(+4) 20/16             151 Fuel (Scoop, Refine 10)
>  w/20 missiles (per user)           0 Meson Screen
>                                     3 Sandcasters (30 each)
>                                     2 Nuclear Damper (15 MW Each)
>                                   A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12
>                                    10 Armor     15 Structure
>
>Crew Details: 3 Engineering, 2 Electronic, 2 Maneuver, 6 Gunnery,=20
>              5 Screens, 1 Small Craft Crew, 40 troops, 10 Command
>             (3 without troops), 4 Stewards (2 without troops),=20
>              1 Medical.
>
>     There are 40 bunks for the troops, 10 small staterooms for the Command
>Crew, and 12 Large Staterooms for the rest of the crew (double occupancy).
>There is a Vehicle Shop, a Sickbay and a 10-ton Minimal Hangar for vehicles.
>There is a streamlined 30-ton grapple for the Ship's Boat.  Jump drive size
>and fuel requirements were caluculated on a 700 ton hull, due to the
>external craft.
>
>-----
>
>     Due to an overanxious PR intern, the previous posting of these designs
>went out before the jumpr drives had been upgraded to support the additional
>volume from carried small craft.  The following versions are correct, and as
>usual the costs do not include small craft.
>     In response to the recent Imperial RFP, "Armed Paramilitary Transport
>(Light)", Aurelian Industries submits the following tender:
>     Gladius-class Light Paramilitary Transport
>     This vessel is designed to transport a small force (up to 47 troops)
>into a potentially-hostile landing zone, either directly or via the carried
>30-ton Ship's Boat.  The vessel is armed with an array of missile and laser
>weapons, allowing the ship to support a landing operation, defend a landing
>zone from approaching ground or aerospace forces, or even destroy light to
>moderate space defenses.  This vessel is also quite suitable as a
>exploration ship, allowing a group of trained scouts or observers to get
>into a dangerous area without needless risk.
>     The Gladius features a 10-ton minmal hangar deck for any vehicles used
>by the platoon, which doubles as a centralized meeting room for the troops
>and crew.  There is also a machine shop to aid in the repair of the unit's
>vehicles, weapons or equipment after action, as well as a fully-equipped
>2-bed sickbay.  There are also five low berths to aid in getting seriously
>wounded troops to a proper hospital, or for securely transporting important
>prisoners.  In addition, there is more than 11 tons of cargo space available
>for carrying additional supplies.  To aid in long-range expeditions, the
>ship is equipped with fuel scoops, and carries an on-board fuel purifier
>capable of processing 10 tons of fuel per hour, enough to fully process the
>total fuel allotment (jump and power plant) in about 13 hours.
>     Please address all questions and correspondence regarding this vessel
>(and other Aurelian Industries products) to:
>     Linus Ishigli, MarCom Director
>     Aurelian Industries
>     Aurelian, Capital, Core
>     scharlto@avalon.com (weekday)
>     scharlto@rtd.com (weekend)
>NOTE:  Actual construction figures for all vessels available upon request
>(spreadsheet)
>
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*
>Auroro Aglo (Dawn Eagle) class Support Cruiser (Type SC) (SSDS)
>
>Submitted By:   Chris Cox   chriscox@ix.netcom.com
>
>Tons: 900Sdt (AF)        Volume: 12,600 m3       Cost: 951.3/885.7MCr*
>Crew: 50                 Troops: 50              Low: 0
>Cargo: 101.5/148.6*      Controls: Std (B, CnC)  TL: 12
>
> 8 Siz                              2 Jump Drive (90dt/Pc Fuel)
>                                    3 Maneuver (Thrusters, 675Mw)
> 1x 1,000Mj Meson Gun(+4)           2.67 Power Plant (1,200Mw)
>        2/2-1-0-0
> 3x 251Mj Laser(+4) 1/4-2-0-0     183.2 Fuel (S 73.3, R 50)
> 1x Missile Barbette(+4) 5/4        3 Meson Screen (10Mw)
>                                    4 Sandcasters (30 Cans)
> 2x 4Sdt Spacious Garage            2 Nuclear Damper
> 3x 4Sdt Minimal Garage           A10 P4 J10 Sensors (EMM)
>                                   20 Armor     17 Structure
>
>Crew Detail: 1xPilot, 1xAstrogator, 7xCommand, 7xEngineer, 1xSteward,
>             2xMedic, 20xGunners, 3xMaintenance, 8xElectronics,
>             50xTroops
>
>*The second number for cost and cargo is for the ship without the Meson Gun.
>
>Notes:=20
>     The most common variant of the Auroro Aglo has the Meson Gun left out
>and the addition space used for cargo.  The accommodations for the crew
>consist of 3 Large Staterooms, 27 Small staterooms and 20 Bunks.  The
>accommodations for the Troops consist of 1 Large Stateroom, 23 Small
>Staterooms and 26 Bunks.  Standard facilities included are a double size
>Sick Bay, a Machine Shop and an Electronics Shop.  The ship has two
>non-standard facilities; a Brig and an Armory.  There are only three months
>worth of Power Plant fuel.  Addition electronics include a second full
>electronics suite to facilitate Command and Control for the troops and two
>backup MFDs.  Despite having MFDs to control the lasers and missiles, there
>are 7 addition gunners for the laser turrets and the missile barbette.  7
>additional troops can be carried in place of the redundant gunners.
>
>Chris' Custom Facilities
>                    Mass           Volume       Power    Cost
>                   (Metric Tons)  (m3)         (MW)     (MCr.)
>Armory              134.4          224(16Sdt)   1        2.5
>Brig                 54.6          182(13Sdt)   0.8      1
>
>Please feel free to come and take look at the Auroro Aglo and its deckplans
>online at:
>(http://users.aol.com/ogerdude/mercru.htm)
>
>By Chris Cox (chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
>Copyright 1997=A9 Lawrence C. Cox
>Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises. All rights
>reserved.
>
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D
>The Cobra Class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
>
>Submitted By:   Colin Hollands   cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com
>
>Tons: 1000Std SL Sph     Volume: 949.1 m3	       Cost:608.27 MCr
>Crew: 33 + 88            High/Mid: 0/0           Low: 0
>Cargo: 9.1 Std           Controls: Fib/B         TL: 12
>=20
> 9 Size                             3 Jump (fuel 1)
>                                    3 Maneuver (Thrusters, 756Mw)
> 1x TL8 MslBarb w/ MFC              3 Powerplant (1500Mw)
> 1x TL12 LsrBat(10)(4)1/7-5-3-2   350 Fuel S400 R30
>                                    0 Meson Screen
> 2x TL12 Grav Fighter (AS CSC)      3 Sandcasters (90)
> 4x TL12 Maverick APC (See Below)   2 Nuclear Damper (40Mw)
>                                  A10 P4 J10 Sensors
>                                   20 Armour 23 Structure
>
>Crew Detail: 5 Engineering, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 7 Gunners,=20
>             0 Screens, 2 AuxCraft Crew, 88 Troops, 5 Command,=20
>             3 Stewards, 1 Medical
>
>Notes:
>     The Cobra is designed to transport and support a compliment of 88
>troops on the ground, it carries 2 Grav Fighters for close ground support,
>and 4 Maverick APC's to get the troops to the ground and give light fire
>support to the troops whilst on the ground. Price includes all subcraft, it
>also has a Vehicle Workshop, an Engineering Workshop, and a Sick bay with 4
>beds and 16 Emergency Low berths, the Cobra Class has the ability to land if
>required.
>     30 tons of space in the Cruiser is dedicated to Military Fitness area
>and recreational facilities such as Audio/Visual room which doubles up as a
>briefing room, there is also 10 tons of space allocated for extra missiles.
>     I have classed the Maverick crews as Troops since they will be on the
>ground fighting within their vehicles.
>
>Workings out
>        Volume     Power      Cost       Area     Crew  Notes
>Hull     949.1     173.1      48.9     2156.0      0    TL12 Sph SL 6G
>                                                        Arm 20 Str 23
>Jump 3    40         0       168.0      186.7      1.3  FuelRqd 300Std
>Man 3     54       756       189        152        1.5
>Avionics   3.4       2.5      18.2        0.3      0    TL12 Fib
>Sensors    1.2      85.2      62.5       44.6      0.8  TL12 A10P4J10
>Comms      0.0      21.5       2.0      203.0      0.8  TL12 Advanced
>Weapon 1   6         0.2       0.1       20        1    Barb 5 Msl
>Wpn 1 MFD  2.3       3.1      25.6        2.8      0    USD +4
>Weapon 2  32.3     269.8      40        102        1    TL12 Mil L Trt
>                                                          (4)1/7-5-3-2
>SndCstrx3  9         3        24         30        3    TL12(30 cans)
>NucDampx2 12        30         4         40        2    TL12 Barb
>Eng Shop   6         0.6       1          0        0
>Veh Shop  10         1         2          0        0
>SickBay   16         1.6      10          0        0    4 beds
>SmlCft x1 20         0         0.1       49        0    TL12 Grav
>                                                          Fighter(CSC)
>SmlCft x1 20         0         0.1       49        0    TL12 Grav
>                                                          Fighter(CSC)
>SmlCft x2 20         0         0.1       49        0    TL12 Maverick
>                                                          APC (Below)
>SmlCft x2 20         0         0.1       49        0    TL12 Maverick
>                                                          APC (Below)
>FPP 1     48        10.1       0.3        0        0    TL12 20/Hour
>FPP 2     24         5.0       0.1        0        0    TL12 10/Hour
>PP 1 x7   49.7    1400       140         14.7      0.7  TL12 7@7.1m3
>PP 2 x1    3.6     100        10          1.1      0.1  TL12 1@3.6m3
>Wrkstnx21 10.5       0         0.042      0        0    TL12
>Bridge     8         0         0.032      0        0
>L Strmx2   8         0.002     0.2        0        0
>S Strmx7  14         0.0035    0.28       0        0
>Bunkx104 104         0         0.52       0        0
>Emrg Lo    8         0.0080    0.4        0        0
>Cargo      9.1       0         0          0        0
>Ftns/Rec  30         0         0          0        0      Rec area
>Msl store 10         0         0          0        0
>Fuel     350         0         0          0        0
>
>Totals   949.1    1362.7     747.57     993.2     12.2
>
>Discounted Price 747.57Mcr-25% =3D 560.6805Mcr
>
>below is the Maverick APC stats
>
>Maverick APC (CSC VDS)
>
>Tons: 4 (USP7)                         vol    ,mass   ,area   ,cost
>Volume:                                56     , 0     ,   0   ,0
>Configuration: Box Streamline           0     , 0     ,70.7   ,0
>Dimensions: Len 5.875m
>          Width 3.055m
>         Height 3.055m
>Structural Material: Comp Laminate TL 8
>Chassis: 6G rated                       0.7272, 5.0904, 0     ,0.058
>Armour: 5.0cm Composite Laminate TL 8
>Armour Rating: 23 Front R slope         0.4242, 2.9694, 8.484 ,0.89
>		 17 right Side M slope      0.6363, 4.4541,12.726 ,0.67
>		 17 left side M Slope       0.6363, 4.4541,12.726 ,0.67
>		 17 Rear M slope            0.4242, 2.9694, 8.484 ,0.448
>		 11.9 top                   1.0605, 7.4235,21.21  ,1.12
>		 11.9 bottom                1.0605, 7.4235,21.21  ,1.12
>Power Plant: TL 12 Fusion+ 24Mw        24     ,10     ,24     ,0.05
>Fuel Consumption: 1.5M^3 per 100 hours
>Fuel Volume: x1 (enriched water)
>Fuel Carried: 100 hours	                1.5   , 1.5   , 0     ,0
>Propulsion: Thrstr TL12 400tons 10Mw   10     ,10     , 2     ,0.1
>Crew 	1 Pilot                           1     , 1     , 0     ,0
>	1 Gunner                          1     , 1     , 0     ,0
>Passengers 20                          20     , 2     , 0     ,0
>Options
>	gravity Comp on 56m^3 3G          0.504 , 1.008 , 0.0252
>		requires (0.3528Mw)
>	Stand Life Sup                    1     , 1     , 0     ,0.6
>	Laser RF11 (uses 0.018Mw/Turn)    1.25  , 0.53  , 0     ,0.17
>	Sensors TL12 Mil Spec Sub Cont    0.03  , 0     , 0.1   ,0.25
>		Dispersed Sensor Array      0     , 0     , 1     ,0
>		Radar (active)              0     , 0     , 0.1   ,0.25
>		Lidar (active)              0     , 0     , 0.1   ,0.5
>		Optical (passive)           0     , 0     , 0.01  ,0.5
>	Comms TL12 MilSpc Orbital(totals) 0.05  , 0     ,10     ,1
>		Directional antenna
>		Direction Finder
>
>Totals: Volume 55.3032  Mass 51.0224  Area 35.31 Cost	8.3212 Mcr
>
>
>Monthly Costings:
>     Total Ship and Subships =3D 608.27Mcr
>     Down Payment of 20% =3D 121.65Mcr
>     Montly payment of 1/240th of Ship Cost - deposit =3D 2.028Mcr
>     Crew Salaries
>        Pilot       0.018Mcr
>        Navigator   0.005Mcr
>        Engineers   0.020Mcr
>        Doctor      0.005Mcr
>        Gunners     0.007Mcr
>        Troops      0.095Mcr   5K Cmdr,3K x2 SubOff,1k Squaddie
>     Life Support   0.236Mcr  for Crew/troop quarters
>                    0.0008Mcr for Low Berths
>     Maintenance 1/1000th of ship value / 12 =3D 0.0507Mcr
>
>     Revenue required =3D Running Cost + 10% =3D 2.712Mcr/Month
>or if Craft bought outright then Running Cost + 10% is 0.4813Mcr/Month
>
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=
>=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D*=3D
>transRift Engineering Corporation
>Warrior-Class Paramilitary Transport (SSDS)
>
>Submitted by:   J_Lambert   J_Lambert@compuserve.com
>
>Tons: 600Std (Ndl AF)    Volume: 8400 m3        Cost: 374.5 MCr
>Crew: 24 + 40Troop+Ownr  Hi/Mid/Bunk: 9/15/41   Low: 0
>Cargo: 60Std             Controls: TL12 Lo (B)  TL: 12
>
>08 Size                            03 Jump Drive (60 Std/Pc Fuel)
>                                   02 Maneuver (T-Plate,12,000 T/Thr)
>01x 251MJ HvyLsrBat(+4) 1/4-2-0-0   1.67 Power Plant (2 x 250 MW)
>01x MslBay(+4) 5/1                180 Fuel (Scoop 180, Refine 8.3)
>                                   00 Meson Screen (0 MW)
>02x 10Std Min Hngr                 00 Sandcasters (000 cans)
>02x 8Std TL9 G-Carrier(unarmed)    00 Nuclear Damper
>01x 112 m3 Sickbay                A10 P4 J10 (-3 Masking)
>                                   03 Armor     12 Structure
>
>Crew Detail: 3 Command, 1 Pilot, 1 Astrogator, 6 Engineer,=20
>             3 Maintenance, 4 Sensors, 4 Gunners, 1 Medic, 1 Steward,
>             40 Troops, plus 1 Owner/Commander
>
>Press Release: Imperial Day 67
>     The transRift Engineering Corporation is pleased to announce its
>Warrior-Class Paramilitary Transport. The Warrior-class ship builds on very
>successful tREC military and civilian designs in widespread use throughout
>the Rifts. The Warrior is designed around the cost-effective tREC 600-Std
>superdense needle airframe hull. The airframe design provides for maximum
>flexibility and safety in planetary atmospheres including wilderness
>refueling. Designed to land its troops directly on planetary surfaces, the
>Warrior avoids the requirements and costs associated with transporting
>cutters for orbit-to-surface operations. The Warrior does include two
>G-Carriers housed in oversized hangers to support the cadre=EDs=
> transportation
>requirements including transfers to orbit when needed. A variety of heavy
>weapon options exist for the G-Carriers, at a slight additional cost.
>     Accommodations aboard the Warrior consist of nine large staterooms for
>the owner/commander and senior officers, fifteen small staterooms for junior
>officers and senior NCOs, and forty-one bunks for junior enlisted personnel.
>The additional space required for maintaining the cadre=EDs fighting edge
>(physical training, weapons maintenance, etc.) is provided through an
>unconventional use of dismountable fuel tanks. The fuel for the Warrior=EDs
>jump drives is carried in three 60-Std tanks--one fixed and two
>dismountable. Immediately after entering jump space, the empty dismountable
>fuel tanks are stowed, making either 610 or 1220 m^3 available, depending on
>the length of the jump. Thus, each individual on the Warrior is provided
>with space equivalent to at least a standard small stateroom. The dedicated
>medic and stewart are assisted by
>     The Warrior is more than capable of holding its own against similarly
>sized ships. The full military sensor suite and electro-magnetic masking
>allow the Warrior to engage on its own terms. The combination of missile and
>heavy laser weapons provides a formidable mix of long and shot range
>firepower both in space and on a planetary surface. The passive armor
>provides an added measure of survivability needed in paramilitary=
> operations.
>     The Warrior is laid out in a three deck design with the lower deck
>dedicated to the hangers, fuel tankage and cargo. The ship=EDs bridge is
>located in the nose of the upper deck adjacent to the officer=EDs quarters.
>The mid-deck contains the enlisted quarters, missile bay, and laser turrets.
>The engine rooms and power plants are located in the ship=EDs tail.

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1061
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1062



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[TML] EDU (Longer than necessary)
Re: your mail
Vargr Computers (was Death of K'kree)
Re: Skills and EDU (longish)
Re: Economics in T4 [LONG]
Re: What happened....
OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION.
Estradition in the Third Imperium
history of the peerage
Re: resource fiction
Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION.
Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?
Re: Darrians (was Re: Alien Book)
Re: Summary Re: Alien Books (long)
Sorry - Testing again
re: Economics...long

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:45:21 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: [TML] EDU (Longer than necessary)

I've been reading (and occasionally fuelling) the EDU debates and conclude
that EDU is one of the following:

1.  EDU represents formal knowledge.  There've been several notes that this
includes the ability to learn - the mindset one acquires (if lucky...) in
school.  EDU goes up (esp. during chargen) mainly by attending schools. Max
= F.  My percieved problem: If EDU is more oriented towards formal
education, then it appears way too often as an attr in task resolution.
Many tasks listing EDU, defined in this way, might better served by using INT...

or

2.  EDU represents one's accumulated life-knowledge and wisdom, NOT
necessarily gained through formal education.  Leonard Erickson suggested
that EDU was akin to the old D&D WIS.  Max = F.  My percieved problem:  If
EDU is more of a life-experience sorta thing, then its fixed manner of
increasing with schooling (4 yrs college = +4 EDU) is a bit weird - several
posters (whose names I'm too lazy to look up) have suggested limiting, or at
least making variable, EDU increases during chargen.

It seems, then, that there are two uses for EDU.  The former, accumulated
knowledge based on formal education, has problems in the skills with which
it's associated.  The latter, general life experience, has problems in how
it's acquired during chargen.  One or the other needs to give...


- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:45:52 -0600 (CST)
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: your mail

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Lewis Roberts wrote:

> 
> >C.T.'s "Book 8: Robots," however, says that the K'kree make wide use of
> >"master/slave" robot systems, since this kind of thing goes well with
> >fondness for herds and hierarchies.  I admit this is really stretching,
> >but couldn't it be argued that this reflects a general K'kree aptitude for
> >computer networking?  
> 
> I think it would, but I think it would make the K'Kree very vulnerable
> to attack by the Virus.  Once one Master got taken over, suddenly the
> Virus would control dozens of other robots. This would probably lead to
> more Puppeteer Virus strains in K'Kree space.  
> 
	I thinksomekind of consensus has come up here - that after some 
initial difficulty, once the Virus penetrates K'kree computer systems, 
its all over.

> Since K'Kree space is so far away from Imperial space, by the time
> Virus got there, it might have evolved away from the simple suicider
> Virus strains, into the more interesting strains, like Doomslayers.
> This would lessen the direct impact of the Virus, but it would create a
> more subtle deadlier enemy.  The Virus might keep the K'Kree somewhat
> intact to use them for its purposes.  The K'Kree might even go along
> with some of this.  AFter all Virus doesn't eat MEAT. (or anything else
> for that matter.)

	Something thatI'm arguing,though,is even after K'kree computers 
are compromiseed, the effects would be less. Referring back to Book 8 
(which I don't have in front of me, so bear with me) is that the K'kree 
make extensive use of dumbots, and don't like handing any real power over 
to computers.

	There is an analogy between 1990s autos and K'kree starships. 
When you get down to it, there is quite a bit of computing power in your 
1997 auto. But does that mean some enterprising hacker can designa virus 
to take over your car? NO! Beacsue it simply isn't wired that way.

	However, once the Hivers get their act together, and start 
chasing out all the Virus-infested, computer-heavy Hiver warships, I 
think quite a few might migrate towards the 2000 Worlds.

	Oh, TBW - the comment about the K'kreegoing along with the Virus? 
I don't think so - the K'kree are some of the biggest bigots in 
Traveller.They don't take orders from ANYBODY.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:17:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Vargr Computers (was Death of K'kree)

Roger Myhre wrote up the Gvurrdon sector (see Joe Heck's Missouri Archive) on
the premise that the Vargr were susceptible to Virus. His c.1200 data
indicates that the Vargr nation-states in Windhorn, Provence, Tuglikki, and a
good chunk of Gvurrdon were steam-rolled by Virus due to a Vargr neglect of
infrastructure. I don't know what he background he used to develop this and
whether or not it's canon. I tend to agree with this assessment based on the
limited materials I've had to read about them.

The "fierce competitiveness" mentioned, although true, doesn't stike me as an
automatic guarantee of slowing up Virus. IMO, this could definitely be said
about the Aslan. The Vargr though (generalizing) primarily raid.
Infrastructure is secondary. Vargr raiding is well known. The Vargr also tend
to be slightly lower in TL on avg than the Imperium. I've interpreted this to
mean less sophisticated systems (or the ability to maintain them) and thus
easier to crack. 

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:25:21 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Skills and EDU (longish)

At 07:08 PM 3/10/97 -0600, you wrote:

>This is a fine point, but I feel it is a misconception, and here's why.
>
>In this corner we have Joe Traveller, with UPP 777777.  He's a recent
>college graduate with a skill of Physics-3. 
>
>In the other corner we have Cleon Shugilli, with a UPP of 7777F7, a PhD in
>Archeology.  He has a skill of Physics-3 as well due to the fact that a
>cute girl he wanted to date was a physics major.
>
>Now, we take Joe and Cleon to the world of Rutabega-3 in the Windhorn
>sector.  They are each asked to plot the tragectory of an asteroid with a
>particular mass, velocity, and position, given full information about the
>star system.
>
>We decide that, for the Rutabega system, this is an Average task,
>requiring a roll of 2D.
>
>Joe's target number is 10.  Cleon's is 18.  Why is Cleon's higher?
>Because his EDU is higher.  Both people are given the same resources, the
>same amount of time, and the same environments.  Both will probably
>succeed, but Cleon is much more likely to give us the right answer.
>
>Now, are we to assume that Cleon has a higher target number for solving
>this orbital mechanics problem because his degree gives him a foot in the
>door?  I don't see how.

No, no.  This was not my point about getting the foot in the door.  You
mis-represented what I said.  It does not apply here.

>Is Cleon's higher target number a result of the fact that he has learned
>how to learn more effectively than Joe?  Maybe, because maybe he is able
>to leaf through the books and reaquire skills and information he needs to
>successfully solve the problem more quickly. 

This is how I thought it would apply.

>However, I would argue that it's because his store of knowledge about the
>topic is greater.  Cleon's higher EDU suggests to me that his knowledge
>about Physics is greater than Joe's, even though they are equally
>skilled.  That is how the skill system works, IMHO.

This is not a bad idea, and one that I had not thought about.  But here's
my problem with it:  if my degree is in History and I have Physics 2, why
should it influence my physics tasks if my "store of knowledge about the
topic is greater"?

>What this implies, to me, is that skill levels are in fact not absolute.
>Two people with Electronics-2 might both be able to swap out the Deteronic
>Frombotzer on my Air Raft, but the one with EDU C will know more about
>Deteronic Frombotzers in general and will be able to accomplish the task
>more quickly, efficiently, and safely than someone with EDU 4.
>
>Finally, EDU, as presented by the T4 rulebook, CANNOT simply be a count of
>how many years you have been in school.  Here's why.

I've read through your example, and again you did not honor what I have
stated.  Using my house rule, everyone who leaves college leaves it with
the same _absolute_ EDU value.  No matter what level you started at, if you
hung in and got the degree, your EDU would go to a certain level.  

So this example does not accurately represent my point of view.

>Able Traveller, a cousin of Joe, has a UPP of 777777.  He attends College.
>He receives +4 EDU, one for each year, leaving him with a UPP of 7777B7.
>He has a BS or BA.
>
>His twin brother, Baker Traveller, has a UPP of 777747.  He attends the
>same university and also gains +4 in EDU, leaving him with a UPP of
>777787.  Both students, Able and Baker, have spent the same amount of time
>in school, both are college graduates with BS or BAs.  They have different
>EDUs.
>
>Their sister, Callie, has a UPP of 777777, but she does really well in
>school and graduates with honors.  She has a final UPP of 7777C7.
>
>EDU is not a linear measure of how many years you have attended school or
>what sort of degree you have.  The best option is that it reflects how
>much you have learned from both formal and informal sources.
>
>-- 
>Dane "Danger" Johnson
>danger@visi.com                 http://danger.home.ml.org/index.html
>PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
>"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai
>
>

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:28:35 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Economics in T4 [LONG]

<snippety snip>
>I ruled that an industrial trade code was worth two tech levels of
>production.  Non industrial was the same in the opposite direction.  The
>world is assumed to have a standard level of production at everything else.
<snappety snap>

As NonIn are the flip side of In I'd say give the In two levels for
industrial goods and NonIn the opposite but the reverse for resources. this
gives the image of all those NonIn worlds feeding the giant In worlds with
resources that trinket back in the form of gadgets et c. I wholly agree to
the 20% per TL (multiplicative) rule.

Thanks for this well thought out post on economics. Keep 'em coming.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:34:54 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: What happened....

>   Definitely not, but the death rate due to violence in Israel is lower
>   than in the US. As far as relations with other countries go, in the
>   last 30 years, Israel has gone to war fewer times than the US has.

We choose our comparison countries wisely don't we?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:48:30 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION.

>   Other than Pysadie/Aramis, I've never had to deal with governments of
>   type D or E; they are simply too rare and have never come up in my
>   campaign. I dealt with Pysadie/Aramis pretty much along the lines
>   detailed by "The Traveller Adventure."  My only quandary came up when

This is just a thought, but has IG (or Marc) made any plans to upgrade The
Traveller Adventure for T4 and re-release it?  I don't have the adventure
and I've heard it is one of the best, and I would like to be able to get it.

Joe?

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:21:12 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Estradition in the Third Imperium

>From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
>Subject: Re: What happened....

>> Back to Traveller:  How do y'all handle the type D and E governments in your
>> campaigns?
>
>   Other than Pysadie/Aramis, I've never had to deal with governments of
>   type D or E; they are simply too rare and have never come up in my
>   campaign. I dealt with Pysadie/Aramis pretty much along the lines
>   detailed by "The Traveller Adventure."  My only quandary came up when
>   the players had fled the planet (they were being held their after
>   inadvertently becoming priests of the local religion).  The Pysadians
>   tried to get them extradited to return to captivity. Normally the
>   Imperium will send criminals back to a planet to stand trial, and I

I would say that the Imperium won't handle extradition per se, but that upon joining the 
Imperium, member states become signatories to mutual and reciprocal extradition treaties 
with all other member states.  So when your PCs landed on Regina, the Reginan 
authorities, having previously been preserved with a request for extradition from 
Pysadi, would have arrested the PCs and held an extradition hearing in conformity with 
Reginan law.  The result of that hearing may have been a decision not to extradite, 
which would have solved your problem.  The order denying extradition would trump any 
requests for extradition served on other member states, but the PCs might be subjected 
to multiple extradition hearings (every time they went to another Imperial world) at 
which they would have to present the Reginan court's order.

The Imperium's role might be to carry the order by xboat network throughout the Imperium 
(or at least the Imperial part of the Spinward Marches).  If extradition is granted, 
the requesting government must provide transport (which could be as simple as low berths 
and a guard), or pay the extraditing government for transport.  If neither government 
can handle transport (that would be a very rare case), the Imperium might help.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:06:15 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: history of the peerage

>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>

>For example, the Vilani had nobles:  "Certain of the old Vilani noble families have 
>maintained more of the old culture..."  Supp. 11, Library Date N-Z, at 30.

That doesn't support my point that there was a noble class in the Ziru Sirka -- it just 
refers to noble families of Vilani ancestry in the Third Imperium.  I didn't read my 
post critically before I sent it.  I apologize.  

I'll look at my sources again tonight.  Vilani society had a rigid caste system, so I 
would expect the top caste to be subject to characterization as nobility.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:13:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: resource fiction

> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:09:51 +0000
> From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
> 
> At 23:26 10/03/97 -0500, Andrew Boulton wrote:
> ><< 3) Iain Banks - SF books generally - not quite Traveller, but nice. >>
> >
> >'nice'? *NICE?* Banksie's books (with or without the M) ain't 'nice' in 
> >the slightest!
> 
> Tell me about it.  On my train trips to work I have to read two Pratchetts
> after each Banks to cheer myself back up again.  Brilliant stuff though.
> "Consider Phlebas" has a particularly Travelleresque mercenaries in a ship
> section.

Yes, Banks is 'dark' in ways all the goth-techno-cyberwannabe authors
these days could never dream of.  And if you pay attention, the moral and
ethical questions he sets up are just as intriguing as the plot itself.  I
can't think of a better source of inspiration for a challenging
roleplaying campaign, even if you just copy his 'feel' without any
particular events crossing over.

> >Worth reading just for the ship names...
>
> Yeah, like the GSV "Size Isn't Everything" (which is over 80km long), or
> "Only Slightly Bent", "Ultimate Ship The Second", etc.

Yeah, the Culture's taste in ship names is one of the best things in
'Consider Phlebas' and 'Use of Weapons' (both are must-reads, btw).  My
favorite is the name given a scout cruiser converted into a battleship at
the start of open hostilities after a long-simmering period of tension: 
The GSV "No More Mr. Nice Guy." :)  The pirate vessel "Clear Air
Turbulence" (not a Culture ship) is also rather nice. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:48:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION.

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Paul Walker wrote:

> This is just a thought, but has IG (or Marc) made any plans to upgrade The
> Traveller Adventure for T4 and re-release it?  I don't have the adventure
> and I've heard it is one of the best, and I would like to be able to get it.
> 
> Joe?

At this point, and to the best of my knowledge, there are no plans to 
re-release The Traveller Adventure.  Let us get through this year's 
schedule before we start packing next year's! <Grin>


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:24:04 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Re: Is Maximum Damage Rule Race-related?

Anders Backman wrote:

<<If only the first hit in combat is taken on a single stat (typical T4 idiot
rule) why not stab oneself with a very small knife before combat to avoid
this from happening with a lethal round. What is wrong with this picture?>>


I follow your argument, but it depends on how much you let the players get
away with. I rationalise the high damage on a first hit as coming from
system shock etc. I wouldn't allow the rule to be abused as described in
your description. And I'd probably give them blood poisoning to teach them
a lesson.

I also randomly allocate the later damage when I'm running a game. I like
gun fights to be lethal. If the players are stupid enough to get into
one....

Another way to up the lethality is to adopt a rule I recall reading about
being in a very early CT edition, namely if a characteristic drops to zero
you have to roll 10+ on 2D to survive (I would allow medical/first aid to
mod the roll). I'm not certain if the rule existed - none of my copies of
CT have it, but it was mentioned in a very old White Dwarf.

The point I was trying to make was that the combat system, if played with
the spirit I believe is behind it, is lethal.


    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:17:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Darrians (was Re: Alien Book)

Quoth Leonard Erickson:
> Somebody with better maps than I've got, please check and see how many
> parsecs it is from the Darrian's star to Vland, the Aslan "capital",
> Zhdant, Core, and Sylea.

Roughing it, using just CT Supplement 8, Library Data (dimensions for
sectors are width (spinward to trailing, subsectors are 8pc across), then
height (coreward to spinward, subsectors are 10pc across), gives:

To Vland, 3-1/2 x 1/2 sectors or so is 112 x 20 pc or 113.8pc (371 ly)
To Kusyu, 1-3/4 x 4 sectors, about, is 56 x 160 pc or 169.5pc (553 ly)
To Zhdant, -3 x -1-1/2 sectors yields -96 x -60 pc or 113.2pc (369 ly)
To Sylea (Capital/Core), 4-1/4 x 3/4 = 136 x 30 pc or 139.3pc (454 ly)

If these figures are accurate to within, say, about a subsector (10pc),
then we will have observation dates within 30 years or so of being
correct, enough for basic historical planning.
 
> I want to figure out if the "odd" flare activity would be seen from
> those places before or after their explorers got near the Darrians. 

The Maghiz occured in -924, says Alien Module 8.  So we can calculate
dates of observation, in chronological order, as:

	Zhdant (-924 + 369) = -555
	Vland  (-924 + 371) = -553
	Sylea  (-924 + 454) = -470
	Kusyu  (-924 + 553) = -371

For what it's worth, the Zhodani Consulate reached its "current"
(1100's) size circa -1000, the Sword Worlds were colonized beginning in
- -399, Zhodani first contact with the Darrians (canonically) was in -187,
Imperial Scouts contacted Darrian (canonically) in +148, and Aslan arrived
at Darrian in +585.

> The activity *would* be noticed by any decent observatory looking in
> the right direction at the right time. So that, along with all the
> evidence of "Grandfather's War" laying around would make that area a
> place to direct explorations toward.

But only if the flare were recognized as artificial -- and only if,
amongst the mountains of data produced by astronomy on such a large scale,
somebody took notice.  Recall, the Maghiz was not a supernova: Darrian
itself was not vaporized by the disaster, only scorched.  :-)  Darrian's
star, Tarnis, is a G1 V with a far M1 companion (disagreements on whether
it's M1 VI or M1D -- either seems unlikely) -- but, in short, not much
worth noticing from hundreds of light years away, in the midst of the Long
Night (or, in the case of the Aslan, their post-Syoisuis cultural reform
period leading up to the Great Conclave).

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:51:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Summary Re: Alien Books (long)

Quoth Carlos Alos-Ferrer:
> >Alien Book I: Vargr
>         About the far future vantage point, I personally prefer the old DGP
> style: pretend the articles are written by people of the approprate eras,
> and published, so that you can handle them to the players if you like.

But that limits the use of the supplement in non-Milieu-Zero settings...
which means you either frustrate buyers or get non-"canonical" campaign
histories (horrors! :-).  I think the period description ought to go in
some Milieu 0 supplement (an adventure?) -- the Alien Book should
specifically support the current Milieu, but allow for use elsewhere.
  
> >Alien Book II: The Races of Man
>         Clearly too much. Maybe it would be better to split this one in two
> or more hardbacks, the first being purely M:0 with the Vilani, Geonee and
> Suerrat. Call this "Human Book I" instead of "Alien" <g>.

I think IG would be hard-pressed to sell two hardback volumes about
humans, fascinating as they might be to the die-hard Traveller collector
types....  So I think splitting it is a lousy move, both in marketing and
financially.  Think how much you save on space from the more similar
biologies!  And 192 pages is a lot, after all....  I think it would work.

> About the Syleans, are they a minor race? I thought they were just a
> nation, with no biological differences!. They are racially vilani with a
> small Solomani component, right?

Aha!  One of my pet pieces of information.  CT Supplement 5, Lightning
Class Cruisers, strongly implies the existence of several minor branches
of humaniti, some of which we've never heard of yet.  (Of course, that may
because these itsy-bitsy tidbits are no longer considered "canonical," but
I'm feeling difficult these days).  To wit, we know about ships with tail
numbers and names 6328 Vilani High Lightning, 6351 Geonee High Lightning,
6365 Suerrat High Lightning.  In the same pattern, thus suggesting to me
the same meaning (human races existing under Imperial leadership), we have
6326 Azhanti High Lightning (duh), 6327 Sylean High Lightning, 6350 Fiorin
High Lightning, 6357 Acheron High Lightning, 6366 Ilurian High Lightning,
and 6372 Luriani High Lightning.

So, the overzealous mind like mine might conclude, first, that the
Syuleans are indeed a human minor race (the multi-bureaux area centered on
Sylea in the Ziru Sirka implies the presence of a much-coveted industrial
and customer base to be shared -- and note that 6365 is Suerrat, not
Ilelish, so it's race rather than world name), second, that we still don't
know about the minor humans known as the Acheron, Azhanti, Fiorin,
Ilurians, and Luriani.

I have some notes about the Acheron of my own design: they're of Neanderthal
heritage (CT Library Data implies not all minor human races are of Homo
sapiens: some are merely Homo).  They spent centuries living underground
after the Final War, and, due to their F-type primary, still live a
primarily underground and noctural existence.  I was going to write them
into the adventure I had planned for Chris Cox's "Feast of the Voyagers"
image contest, but, well, you see, I'm directing this play....  (Anyone
here in the Houston area who likes Shakespeare?  Check out web site
http://www.rice.edu/BakerShakespeare -- plug, plug!).

The Syleans certainly had extensive Vilani influence (viz. those bureaux),
and many Solomani must have settled there as well for the world to be a
late capital of the Rule of Man.  Sylea is Earthlike enough that there
probably aren't immense biological differences... but maybe, for example,
the cutlass training and code duello of Milieu Zero are relics of a more
formal, Renaissance-honor-type Sylean culture that the "invaders" adopted?

And, hey, the Azhanti, Fiorin, Ilurians, and Luriani are still up for
grabs!  I've been mulling over good "niches" for them -- fur-covered
arctic dweller, for example, maybe a herd/caste dominated type like
something between the Droyne and K'kree... this is the sort of thing, to
me, that would sell a "Races of Man" type Alien Book.

> >Alien Book III: Aslan
>         Once the period 1100 is included, I must insist the Darrian fit here
> quite well, instead of in a Human volume.

Why?  They're humans, after all.  And the Aslan in the Confederation would
seem to be moving closer to human norms of behavior rather than vice versa.
What if I "insisted" that human-culture Aslan be included in the humans
volume?  It would make about as much sense.

> >Alien Book IV: Wards of the Imperium
> I know you don't like 'em, but... a word about the Primordials?

Heck, I'm not writing these things, nor am I employed by IG as staff
(though I _am_ jobhunting... do you guys allow telecommuting? :-)...
so, sure, while we're just dreaming, or fulminating, or sh*t-kicking, or
whatever we'd like to call it: our imaginary versions of these books
(which might or might not resemble the final product at all) can contain 
whatever you want. Just remember that I do hate those guys....  <chuckle>

> >Alien Book V: Trailing Strangers
>         A Hivers/K'kree joint book would be a good one if sales on
> individual races are low, yes, but making it 192 pp would discourage most
> buyers. And this one should really be multi-Millieu. 

There's not a big price jump from 128 to 192, if I remember my print
buying correctly (more than that kills you, though).  Especially if
they're going hardcover anyway, I figure the space is worth it _if_it's_
needed_.  We're not looking for filler here, and CT's original Alien
Modules for K'kree and Hivers were 40 and 48 pages, respectively.  So 128
is certainly practical: I was just being flexible.  Though not as flexible
as those pesky Hivers can be... damn those tentacles....

>         Evil thought: create Vargr/K'kree wars to boost interest. Far
> colonies of those "red vargr" to Trailing...

I like it!  I've found myself wondering what's up coreward of the rift
that splits the K'kree from the Vargr, then splits in turn to create a
sector-size (or more) island up in, ahem, "Kring Noor" sector....

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:12:35 +1300
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: Sorry - Testing again

I'm sure this is frustrating to all of you that are affected and I apologise - I have made some tests and now I hope to post binary free :)

If not please accept my apologies in advance - I have madfe some test posts to other things and it seems to be OK - but this will tell.

Again - My apologies.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:06:13 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: re: Economics...long

>Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:50:09 -0700 (MST)
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>

Thank you for the reply.  It contained some food for thought, and I would
like further feedback on the following.

>Scott Ellsworth writes:
>
>>What does tech level mean?
>>In the cargo chapter, we are presented with a conversion of 10% per tech
>>level.  This has always seemed ridiculously unreasonable,
[tech should cost more]

>>As a simple example, imagine how much PG&E would pay for a 1000MW fusion
>>reactor that can be fueled for years on a hundred gallon tank of non
>>radioactive stuff.
[...]

>	Unfortunately, this analogy, and this problem does not hold up.

It depends largely on the industrial capacity of the country in question,
and what the production cost of the high tech goodies are.  I am theorizing
that high tech things are fairly cheap for high tech people, affordable a
tech level or two down, and virtually unobtainable much below that.  This
can be argued, and I will try to show the assumptions that lead to it.

>In an utterly isolated system (ie: little green men came down and offered
>to sell PG&E a 1000MW fusion generator, the prices would be astronomical.

I believe that this is the situation in much of the Third Imperium, or
should be.  I like the play opportunities offered by the present system
more, as it is worth the player's time to sell to low tech planets, but I
have not yet found a reason why this would be the case.  If you see
otherwise, explain, as I would prefer to play in a place where players sell
to the low tech people regularly.

>But, to make it a little more down-to-earth, so to speak, selling modern
>autos to primitive countries here on earth.

In most cases, though, most of those primitive countries are not more than
a tech level or two back.  Much of the Traveller charts are predicated on a
just unbelievable amount of tech difference.  It is my understanding,
subject to new data, that by the time you reach a really primitive country,
such as any group of aborigines or non tech South American Indians, that
the high tech goods they have are mostly those disposed of as not very
useful by the high tech countries.  One has to have a reasonably large
amount of local low tech industry to produce enough stuff to interest a
high tech culture.

Consider a hypothetical country that has not updated their tech base, so
that their tech is still two tech levels back, such as the parts of the
former USSR where they had concentrated all industry on military gear,
leaving the underlying infrastructure lacking.  Alternatively, a Liberian
house mate when I was getting my MS in math claimed that major parts of the
Liberian tech base were still fifties era, and swamped.  This likely puts
them behind by a tech level or two.  I understand that India has chosen to
boost the tech of certain parts of the economy and country to completely
modern standards, at the cost of leaving other parts essentially unimproved
from turn of the century tech.  This would be three or four tech levels
difference.  (I do not have enough data for those to feel really comfortable.)

>  If Ford were the only one
>making and selling cars, then no problem, the tech will be valued quite
>highly, considering the tech level difference.

We agree on this, as a monopoly pretty much always charges what the market
will bear.

>BUT, when Ford AND Toyota AND GM AND Hyundai AND Suzuki all are around to
>sell the high tech, then the law of supply and demand intervenes.

Yes and no.  Whether there are many manufacturers or few is not as
important as how hard that tech is to make, and how much the manufacturer
has to get for it.

Car companies must make on the order of 10K for a cheap runabout in the US.
 They can make cars that actually sell for $7, but they would rather not.
A family of US minimum wage workers could afford such a thing on their
$19000/yr combined salary, if they can amortize it over enough time.

A TL6 population has many members who can afford such a thing.  While the
entire population cannot afford runabouts, most members of the middle class
can.  A ship can make a lot of money trading with people like this, as they
do have enough industry to make trade goods, without having so much tech
that they are uninterested.  This seems closer to how most high tech-low
tech trade in Traveller claims to be, and I hold that this is really only
sensible for a 1-2 tech level difference.

These "nearly technologically competitive" planets can do quite well, as
the goods they produce are likely good enough for many purposes.  If chips
are expensive to ship, for example, one can likely use labor in almost any
partly industrialized country to assemble sealed hard drives and
motherboards into working, tested computers.  The local industry might not
be up to building a Pentium/PPC fab plant, but it certainly can build
cases, cables, PC boards, and so on.

The TL4 culture is a completely different story. I would be surprised if
the archetypical family in the TL4 area making $2 a day could afford such a
car?  It would be useful as all hell to them, despite difficulty
maintaining it and fueling it, but they do not have the money to buy it in
the first place.  If there is someone at TL4 whose income is derived from
several hundred such low wage workers wanted this cheap car, though, they
could afford it.

If someone who can afford it does so, and then uses it up to the point
where they no longer care, they might well sell it to the low wage workers
at a price the low wage workers can afford.  The original wealthy owner is
getting some return for something which is nearly valueless to them, and
which might well give them more cash in the long run.

Therefore, on this very low tech world, new high tech goods will be
expensive.  How expensive is the crux of the matter.

> Whenever
>you have multiple suppliers of the same tech, the price will go down. The
>Imperium operates in an environment where there have always been many
>suppliers of a given technology (except, apparently fusion+ ;-) so the
>differences in tech level won't be as marked.

Only if the multiple suppliers brings the price down to where an individual
can afford it.  I can easily see a one or two tech level difference being
worth only 20-50%, and that being taken as profit.

There are two cases.  The first case assumes that high tech worlds produce
so much stuff that selling all that the low tech worlds want is a no
brainer, and the other case assumes that it is hard to make goods, and so
if they sell some stuff to a low tech world, then they are not selling to a
high tech one.

The first case means that high tech worlds produce so much stuff there is
no lack of supply.  The biggest lack is how much money the low tech worlds
have to buy the stuff.  Under these circumstances, prices on low tech
worlds will fall, as the manufacturers really want to sell all the stuff
they can make.  There is, however, a fly in the ointment.  

The amount of money a high tech world has to spend is proportionally to
just how good its industry is.  If industry gets really, really efficient
as tech goes up, then the high tech worlds will find it pretty cheap to
produce those goods.  On the other hand, they know that a high tech world
has lots of stuff to pay for the goods with.  A low tech world will not be
nearly as efficient, and so will not have a whole lot of cash.  They will
need the output of dozens of workers to get the equivalent of one high tech
worker.  It can work out if the high tech worker can produce lots and lots
of stuff, as then one high tech worker can _produce_ the stuff needed by
dozens of low tech workers.

There are two corollaries: high tech people make a lot of money compared to
low tech ones, and high tech goods are very, very inexpensive, so the low
tech folks can afford them anyway.  It looks like T4 has gone this way as
far as power goes.

The second case is not as interesting:  if high tech worlds do not produce
very much, then they are going to want to sell to high tech markets.  They
have the money, and the re likely not going to want to export.  Prices will
go up, and high tech worlds can pay marginally more than low tech ones.

> The differences in
>SUPPORTING those TL-12 items on a TL-8 world...well, that's another story
>entirely!

True, true.  Many a game has come out of trying to keep a high tech item
running without a support system.  Wonderful game fodder.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1062
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1063



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Ael Yael
Re: Summary Re: Alien Books (long)
Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!
Re: What?
THUDDD Ballot
Re: Future swordfighting - at the pylon's edge
FF&S fuel tank statistics
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Task Level Assignment
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: BattleDress
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
M0 & swords shields oh my Kinda long...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:41:19 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:08:12 -0500, you wrote:

> At 09:13 PM 3/10/97 GMT, you wrote:

> >If we define an EDU rating of 15 (F) as being the equivalent of a
> >post-doctorate degree, people in the Traveller universe (with access
> >to longevity drugs) can _easily_ live long enough to acquire
> >additional post-doctorate degrees in other totally-unrelated fields.
> >Now the individual has multiple pieces of paper (which we will assume
> >means that the character DOES possess those skills).  Even without
> >Anagathics, multiple doctorates are still possible.  What is such a
> >character's EDU rating now? :)
>=20
> F.  If you were to get a Doctorate and then a second, what would we =
call
> you?  Dr. Dr. Lindsay?  No, you'd still be just Dr. Lindsay and your =
EDU
> would not go up.

Click!

So if I'm following your train of thought correctly, the EDU ladder is
as rigid as is the SOC ladder (I don't think I like where this is
going :)

According to what I think you're saying, it is the attainment of the
_post-doctorate_ that gives a character an EDU rating of F, and not
necessarily the knowledge and skills gained along the way (these
appear as "skills").  While this might simplify things, I think it
greatly misrepresents the role of "Education" in Traveller (and RPGs
in general).

By using the mere possession of a diploma to represent a specific
character statistic, how can you explain its association with skills
such as "Survey" and "Robotics" (and its non-association with other
skills such as "Acting" or "Streetwise")?  Since the current task
system uses "stat plus skill", EDU is _far_ too powerful for the
definition you give.  Even if we use Kenneth's KBv2.0 system, the
problem doesn't go away (although it becomes less severe).

Oh, and "Dr. Lindsay", I kinda like that!  Of course, I used to work
with engines, suspension, and oil, as opposed to muscles, ligaments,
and plasma.  But still, if those damn deities didn't insist on
re-engineering my patients every year... (you think a doctor has to
memorize a lot of info :)

> >According to
> >Traveller's definition, the character possesses all of the knowledge
> >his/her humanoid brain can hold at that point. =20
>=20
> No, no, no, again.  Reread the definition of EDU.  EDU is NOT defined =
as
> the amount of knowledge a brain can hold.

Exactly WHO's definition? :)

Traveller: "...amount of schooling" [you define schooling on a fixed
scale, with pre-school at one end and a post-doctorate degree at the
other; I define it simply as "exposure to knowledge"; we both agree
that the term "schooling" can mean any classroom-like environment]

Big Thick Dictionary: "the knowledge, skill, ability, or character
gained through teaching, training, study, or experience; the study of
the methods, principles, and problems of teaching and learning"

Lotsa RPG'ers: "the natural ability to learn; most general knowledge
not represented by skills (on the character sheet)"


By putting a maximum limit on EDU regarding the first definition, you
are telling me that at one point in my schooling, my EDU rating will
max out and additional schooling would be futile (for the purpose of
raising my EDU).

Regarding the second definition, you cannot put a maximum limit on EDU
by it's very wording-- everything you experience increases your
Education :)

The third definition, while not official, is perhaps the best, since
it creates the least amount of confusion and explains why many RPGs
have skills _and_ a statistic representing "Education" or Wisdom".  Of
course, this definition means that the EDU rating has no upward limit
(except for how long you can live).

Regardless of which definition used, this _still_ does not explain why
the EDU stat is used as the controlling attribute for skills such as
"Law" or "History" (or more to the point, _both_).  As I stated below,
the other stats work much better with the skills associated with them;
the problem I have boils down to those linked to EDU.  I've watched
players generating characters in the past, who have screamed out with
glee upon rolling box-cars for their EDU rating.  EDU does, if you
check, have the ability to become the controlling attribute for up to
forty (40) skills!  That is VERY powerful, indeed (_too_ powerful
based on a piece of paper)!  :)

> Given that you're choosing to redefine EDU, most of your remaining
> arguments don't make sense.  I suppose it might be best to table this
> discussion and simply agree that we disagree on what EDU is.

I might be redefining EDU, but only because the current definition is
weak and doesn't explain its association with certain (and only
certain) skills.  I originally thought _your_ arguments weren't making
any sense, until it clicked that you might be talking about the actual
"diploma" received from a post-doctorate, and not some form of
esoteric knowledge incapable of being defined as a "Skill".

Here's MY definition one last time...

"EDUcation (as it applies to RPGs such as Traveller) represents the
character's natural ability to learn.  It also represents all
knowledge, skills, and abilities gained throughout the character's
lifetime that DO NOT specifically manifest themselves as knowledge,
skills, or abilities on that character's character sheet."

=46urthermore, the accumulation of specific groups of skill levels (eg:
Medical-3, Biology-3, & Perception-1) can be used to symbolize a
specific degree or diploma possessed by the individual (eg: 1st-year
Medical student).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:51:22 -0800
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Ael Yael

The Ael Yael are a race of intelligent cold-blooded flyers.  ( ie 
pteradons with intelligence ).  They are from Jaeleya in the Gushmege 
sector.  They were first contacted in JTAS, but which number I am still 
unsure of. ( My now ex-girlfriend recently moved out and things are still 
not in order here and I cant seem to locate it ).

As far as looks, they favor the Controlled a great deal, but are very 
much unlike them.

Shade
- -- 
"*#%& the censors!!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:44:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Summary Re: Alien Books (long)

   Hi.

> From: Joseph Chepe Lockett <jlockett@io.com>

> I have some notes about the Acheron of my own design: they're of Neanderthal
> heritage (CT Library Data implies not all minor human races are of Homo
> sapiens: some are merely Homo).  They spent centuries living underground

   Two nits to pick:

   (1) Neadertals were (probably) H. sapiens.  This has recently come
   into doubt in some circles though.

   (2) Neanderthals lived 30-100 thousand years ago, long after the
   ancients had come and gone. This is much more certain.

   I recommend H. erectus as an alternative.  Erectus died out about 100
   thousand years ago.  There were other human species around at that
   time too, I think. (H. afarensis? H. heidelbergensis? H. rudolfus?  I
   can't really recall offhand.)

   Just in case you care.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:35:03 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introducing...KBv2.0!

> TNE increased the difficulty level of the task by one if the character had
> no applicable skills (in this case, no skill 0 skills, either).  Thoughts
> about how well this'd work in T4?

Yes, good thought.  MT handled it that way too.  

Maybe we could do it this way:

		If you don't have a skill, and the GM will let you try, you roll at 
one level higher.

		If you have a 0 level skill, either default or a skill that has 
been reduced due to modifiers, you can roll just using your 
attribute.

I like that.  I think it will work.  Since MT used this type of 
system, I was thinking about implementing it in KBv2.0.  Your post 
cinched it.

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:35:04 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: What?

> Great stuff!  So far I've heard all about something called
> KBv2.0.  Just two questions.
> 
> 1)  What is it?
> 
> 2)  Where can I find it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Brad Urwiller
> ravyn@ptw.com

KBv2.0 is the new task system that I've developed for T4.  It was 
designed to fix some of the things that people did not like in 
KBv1.1 (which, in turn, was designed to fix the problems with the T4 
task system as written in the book).

There were two things that people did not like about KBv1.1.  It 
required some awkward math during the game (double one thing, halve 
another, and add them together) and used the 1/2 die common to T4.

KBv2.0 was designed with several goals in mind, but two of them were 
to fix these two problems with KBv1.1.



What is KBv2.0?

It's a simple task fix for T4.  Here's three steps to using KBv2.0.

			1)  Experience Score (skill x 3)
			Go through your character sheet, multiply all you skill levels 
			by 3, and record this next to the skill.  This is called your 
			character's experience score.  (You might want to record it in the 
			area where you list the character's skill's base characteristic, 
			if you put that on you char sheets.)  This calculation will only 
			have to be done once unless your character goes up a level.

			
			2)  Target Number Calculation (Experience + Attribute).
			In T4, you calculate your target number for task throws by adding 
			skill and attribute together.  In KBv2.0, you add your character's 
			experience score and his attribute together to arrive at the 
			target number.


			3)  Difficulty Codes.
			Change the amount of dice thrown--the difficulty codes--to what is 
			listed here.

			Easy			Auto/2D
			Average			3D
			Difficult		4D
			Formidable		5D
			Staggering		6D
			Impossible		7D



Where can you find KBv2.0?  Well, right here on the TML, of course.

I've sent the system to Marc for his comments.  It is my hope that he 
adopts it for the revised edition of T4, but I haven't heard back 
from him yet.

Thanks,

Kenneth.
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:19:03 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: THUDDD Ballot

Dummy me I forgot Steve's entry on the Ballot post.  It was included on the
Entries post, but now the Ballot one.  His entry is...

Gladius-class Light Paramilitary Transport (QSDS 1.5)
Submitted By:   scharlto@avalon.com

Sorry Steve.
Here are the entries again (With Steve's Included):

>Entries
>
>Condottieri-class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
>Submitted by:   Idiot/Savant   idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
>
>Heracules Class Mercenary Cruiser(SSDS)
>Submitted by:   John J. Long   jlong@mail2.wilmington.net
>
>Huscarle class assault cruiser (QSDS v1.5)
>Submitted by:   Shane Thomas   s.n.thomas@aelfgyva.demon.co.uk
>
>"Horus" class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
>Submitted by:   Craig Berry   cberry@cinenet.net
>
>Auroro Aglo (Dawn Eagle) class Support Cruiser (Type SC) (SSDS)
>Submitted By:   Chris Cox   chriscox@ix.netcom.com
>
>The Cobra Class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
>Submitted By:   Colin Hollands   cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com
>
>Warrior-Class Paramilitary Transport (SSDS)
>Submitted by:   J_Lambert   J_Lambert@compuserve.com
>
>Greek Fire Class (SSDS)
>Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au
>
>Gladius-class Light Paramilitary Transport (QSDS1.5)
>Submitted By:   scharlto@avalon.com

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 05:29:59 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Future swordfighting - at the pylon's edge

- ----------
> From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Future swordfighting - at the pylon's edge

> On Sat, 8 Mar 1997 Neveron@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > >        During the late  Renaissance, it was considered a valid, if
somewhat
> > >risky tactic, to use your left hand to grab your opponent's rapier and
trap
> > >it. 
> 
> 	Hence the Spanish innovation of the guanto di pressa (sp?), a
> chainmail glove designed to minimize injury in this maneuver.


	I can attest from personal experience that a chain mail glove
would prove invaluable, since after you grab your opponents sword
they have a tendency to yank it back.  This can result in cutting
your fingers to the bone (and what a bloody mess..).

Eric Freitas
edf@atlantic.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:53:57 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: FF&S fuel tank statistics

I'm working on a program that aids in the design
of starships using FF&S as a basis.  I cannot seem
to find any information on the mass, cost and 
power requirements to store liquid hydrogen anywhere.

Page 42 under Jump Drives says "Fuel tankage itself is
under Section 8, Power Production.".  Looking in Section
8, I can find the price and mass of different fuels
on page 63, but no tankage stats.  

In Section 7 page 62, there are stats listed for Drop,
Collapsible, and Dismountable tanks, but no ordinary
fixed tanks.  There must be cost, mass, and power stats
for them but darned if I can find any.



Eric Freitas
edf@atlantic.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:33:35 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

> If the data gathered by all of the sensors in, say, a squad, were
combined
> and checked against one another by a "tactical computer," interesting
> things would become possible. Suppose, for example, that soldier "A"
can't
> see a potential target, because there's a wall in his way.  Soldiers "B" 
> and "C", however, can see this target. The tactical computer "paints" a
> translucent, "greyed-out" picture of this hidden target for soldier "C,"
> using data from "A" and "B" (corrected for distance, and the angle from
> which it is being "viewed"). This image would be "painted" right onto the
> inner surface of the suit's visor.  Soldier "C" could then blast through
> that wall with his FGMP-14, without waiting to be consciously informed of
> the target's presence by "A" or "B".  Likewise, the tactical computer
> could "tint" the images of potential targets, to indicate whether they're
> in range or not...the possibilites are endless.

	The computer game XCOM has an ability similar to this.  The soldiers are
wearing helmets that connect to a tactical display system.  If one soldier 
can see a target, all others can attempt to fire upon it even if it's out
of
visual range.  This is useful when you run into aliens with very heavy
armor,
you can engage them before they have much firing accuracy themselves.

Eric Freitas
edf@atlantic.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:55:23 +0000
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

At 16:56 10/03/97 -0500, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
>I don't know what is worse, the foolish and arrogant programmers who
>assume that everyone uses WINMAIL and therefore the default setting
>should send the <expletive deleted> encoded <expletive deleted>
>winmail.dat files, or the foolish and ingnorant users who aren't
>considerate enough to learn how to turn that marvellous option off. 

Well, the first time you do it, someone politely tells you, and often gives
you instructions on how to switch it off.  You comply, and all is well.

Then someone else tells you that you've started attaching winmail.dat's
again, and politely asks you to turn them off.  You scratch your head,
double-check the settings and wonder why it's started up again.  You then
send test messages to friends, asking if they can see any attachments,
binaries, winmail.dat's or anything else.  "No", they all reply.  OK, all
must be well.

So you send a message to another list, where someone politely asks you to
stop sending attachments.  At this point (after hoovering up the hair
you've just pulled out), you do a little research on the web, read through
the sections on how to get rid of winmail.dat and find the following note
at the end:

"Note: Either of these methods should work for most users, but sometimes
nothing seems to work - yet another brilliant design strategy by Microsoft.
If you plan to be sending lots of internet email, you should seriously
consider using a mail program more suited to the task, such as Eudora. "

After re-plastering the wall, (where you've been hitting it with your
head), you download Eudor Light 3.0 and breathe a long sigh of relief.
Surely all must be well now.

Then, and this is an optional extra reserved for only the *most* foolish
and ignorant, you send a message to a mailing list saying that all is well,
and cut and paste a couple of lines of a winmail.dat onto the end as a sort
of "joke".  Boy do you feel foolish and sheepish (and other embarrasing
'ish'es) for doing that when people tell you that their mail reader
interpreted it as an attachment :-(.


Anyway, try to be nice to those people that send winmail.dat's at the end
of their messages for the first couple of times.  Point them to
http://www.creativelement.com/win95ann for instructions on how to turn the
settings off.  If they still persist, then, and only then, haul out the
relativistic rocks.


Cheers,
Liam

- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 23:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970307121924.006cdf20@pop.ricochet.net>

<< - Which leads me to the other possibility.  Maybe ABD _isn't_ like an M1
tank (though I like that thought).  Maybe the use of ABD is more like the
use of fighting lines and formations by the Napoleonic-era British fighting
the American colonial rebels.  Theirs was a good tactic that no longer made
sense. >>

Maybe like cavalry. Vulnerable to the right weapons/tactics, but devastating 
against the intended targets (+intimidation value).

<<If that's true, then perhaps some sort of lighter, cheaper armor
(like Star Wars stormtroopers) is in order.  Still gives you the sensors,
life-support, and protection against some weapons, etc., but its cheap and
versatile enough that you don't worry if some of the infantry wearing them
get mowed down by lasers. >>

Non-augmented BD (aka Combat Armour).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:10:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Task Level Assignment

I just had a notion how to figure out what level skill is needed to
be a pro at something (a good ballpark level, anyway)...

For clarity:

(Automatic)
Easy
Average
Difficult
Formidable
Staggering
Impossible
(NOTpossible (impossible was taken :-)

Now, take a task that you wan to be a "professional" one.  Is this
something that somebody with no skill would have no chance at all of
doing (the task is time-limited, so studying up isn't an option)?
If no, set the no-skill level at Notpossible.  Reduce the Difficulty Level
by 1 for each skill level (count skill-0).

So:

Skill   Task Diff.
Level   Level
- -----   ----------
none    Not possible
0       Impossible
1       Staggering
2       Formidable
3       Difficult
4       Average
5       Easy
6+      Automatic (?)

The roll would be made (under current T4, say) at Attribute+skill.

I guess a professional would be 4 in this scheme, 3 would be
somebody in training to be a professional.  This gives a benchmark
task level for a given skill vs. people at large.

To use this, you need only think about the level at which somebody
with no training would see the task at hand.  In the society of
traveller, computers would be such a part of life that some
operation involving doing a literature search would be easy for
everybody (call the general populace of a sufficiently high-tech
world to be minimum skill-0).  So, to set the task for a computer
search (listed skill is Computer):

Skill   Task Diff.
Level   Level
- -----   ----------
none    Difficult
0       Average
1       Easy
2+      Automatic

Bump it up or down based on how tricky the search is.

This works regardless of the system you choose to use, BTW, and even
seems to work for T4 as is.  It also helps me think of task levels
on the fly---"How hard for somebody with no skill is this?"

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 23:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970307121924.006cdf20@pop.ricochet.net>

<< - Which leads me to the other possibility.  Maybe ABD _isn't_ like an M1
tank (though I like that thought).  Maybe the use of ABD is more like the
use of fighting lines and formations by the Napoleonic-era British fighting
the American colonial rebels.  Theirs was a good tactic that no longer made
sense. >>

Maybe like cavalry. Vulnerable to the right weapons/tactics, but devastating 
against the intended targets (+intimidation value).

<<If that's true, then perhaps some sort of lighter, cheaper armor
(like Star Wars stormtroopers) is in order.  Still gives you the sensors,
life-support, and protection against some weapons, etc., but its cheap and
versatile enough that you don't worry if some of the infantry wearing them
get mowed down by lasers. >>

Non-augmented BD (aka Combat Armour).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 23:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: BattleDress

In-Reply-To: <199703080003.AAA20041@typhoon.dial.pipex.net>

<< In a Cyberpunk game some lucky characters have thrown Full
Cyborgs down several flights of stairs and off the roof of tower
blocks - using akido.  Could this happen to a marine in Battledress. >>

Not if he's wearing a grav belt...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 23:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

In-Reply-To: <199703072340.RAA27889@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>

<< Underslung grenade launchers are good too, except that you have a limited
rate of fire, high recoil, and again, limited ammunition. You have to paste
everyone with the grenades before they can get a PGMP shot on you too.
Finally you have to kill all them before they get close enough for you to
start suffering collateral damage from the fragments. >>

The sensors, stealth, grav pack, etc in ABD means the guy with the GL (and 
most of his friends) are dead before they even know the fight has started. 
Even if he does get a shot off, the PD laser will shoot it down...

You f*ck with ABD, you die.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 15:08:27 PST
From: "James M. Kelleher" <kelleher@holonet.net>
Subject: M0 & swords shields oh my Kinda long...

First off I'd like to comment on M0, which I just got...
I LOVE it my group are in cicra 1125, but there are lotsa ideas, and
some of the roumers will be cropping up 1100 years later...
IG has done a wonderful job, and deserves much praise for a great source
book, and I think it would be a good era to run a campeign in.
Keep up the good work, I think I will keep getting the stuff and
recommending it!

Now, Uh Oh some one started the ol' I have a pointy fast sword - you
have a broad sword and shield - I win... argument, I'd better don the
fire retardents, as this one gets me foamming at the mouth...

HERE GOES...
>On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>
> 	And before I go back to work, I should also add that AFAIK real
> broadswords and shields are considerably heavier than the recycled stop
> signs and tarted-up rattan canes the SCA fighters pack.  This makes SCA
> fighting somewhat dubious IMHO as a test-bed for the sort of comparison
> you're making.

Excuuuuse Me? Neither of my shields, are recycled stop signs, One of
them is 14 pounds, down from 16lbs. the other is 12lbs, and covers a
much smaller area.
My swords weigh in at 2 1/2 to 3lbs.
both of my steel hand & 1/2's weigh about that much.

>        If you have put this tactic to the test, then you either have the
>very rare ability to run backwards as fast as you can run forwards, or you
>have fought alarmingly slow opponents.  A good-sized shield, properly used,
>will protect a fighter's torso and leading leg down to the knee.  A rushing
>swordsman will move about one-and-a-half times faster forwards than his
>opponent can move backwards, on the average.  This negates distance pretty
>fast, and besides, unless the shield fighter is using a rather short weapon,
>most broadswords have a length of three feet, giving a fencer at best only a
>few inches advantage, plus whatever the length of his arm may yield.  In
>short, keeping your opponent at a distance sounds great on paper, but it is
>a lot harder in practise.  If you have a tactic that makes this routinely
>possible I commend your skill and would really love to learn how to do it.

Yup, not to mention the arm that is hanging out there in range, ( I HATE
taking arms but if that is all the target I have... ).

>        I do agree though, that if I am confronted with a sword-wielding
>barbarian while I carry a pistol, I would just shoot the guy in the foot and
>walk away.

No argument here. Except I wouldn't shoot for the foot... :-)

>>While I will submit that hitting someone at the exteme range of your blade
>>makes for shallow and usually non-life threatening wounds, they hurt like
>>hell, throw off your opponents attacks, and hinder his movement. That is
>>usually good enough to allow for an opening to either escape or to do some
>>*real* damage once the opposing blade is taken care of.

>        Er, please define "extreme range of your blade".  Ideally, you want
>to hit your target with the extreme four inches of your blade on slashing or
>chopping attacks, because that is the surface area that yields the most
>force on impact.  A sword works basically like a lever- the longer it is,
>the more force can be generated at the ends.  Admittedly, a fencing sabre
>would do far less damage with its extreme four inches than a broadsword,
>because it has half (or less) than the broadsword's mass, leading to
>comparatively superficial damage.  Note that I say comparatively- you can
>still do a lot of damage with a fencing sabre if used with precision.

Uh I gotta mention a coupla things here...
A broadsword is an evolved club, most of its attacks are a hacking
motion.
A Rapier is an evloved knife, use it like a 4' knife...
( this is an over simplification, of course but gets the idea accross ).

>>Your barbarian with his 7kg sword is swinging it a *lot*
>>slower than me with my 2.5 kilo sabre. As he swings, I slice the tendons in
>>his arm, he drops his heavy and now useless weapon and has to hide behind
>>his sheild.

Whoa; Wait a minuite... 7kg?????

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

That's, lessee, uh, 15lbs. I do not know of any sword, unless a VERY heavy
Zwiehander, ( I know that's misspelled but my sourceses are not here).
that weighs THAT much, and that would NOT be used with a shield.
Mine weigh in at about 2 1/2 to 3 lbs.
Ask yourself... would you like to swing something like that fro even
five minuites, I have seen longer fights 15 to 20 min.
I do not remember picking up ANY sabre that is in the 5 lb range, would
defete its purpose, really... :-)

>>I can now stand well out of the way of any clumsy shield punch (which is
>>most often an untrained desperation maneuver) and cut the leg tendons, the
>>head, or anyplace else that the shield can't cover. Also, my sabre moves a
>>hell of a lot faster than his shield, which means I can feint him out of his
>>shorts and hit anyplace I really choose.

Ok now, yes if the shield use is clumsy - then you probably have a
novice on your hands, most of us use hooks and presses as a follow up to
the block, so it is not so easy for the opponet to notice... :-)
Well remember he is not going to stand in one place for you to run
around him, if he does he is again a novice. On the feint...
If he is a novice he probably wouldn't even notice, some one who has
seen this weapon and even has handled one has a better idea fo what you
can do so you might be able to fake him out of his shorts...
Know what I do when that happens?
Move!
Not neccessarly away, why? When you can avoid it moving into it... :-)
Now Mr. Barbarian is probably not in his shorts...
A sabre weiging in at 1 1/2 to 2lbs, and sharp to boot is going to have
a problem getting through the armor, sabres and especially Rapiers where
not designed for use against armor - the rapier was the renessance
gentileman's side arm and was to be used against non armored opponets,
for the most part they where not wepons of war, Yes they where carried
by officers, and is like the .45 M1911 A1, in the modern times.

>        Can't argue there.  IF you can avoid being clobbered by his attack,
>and IF your opponent is not foolish enough to expect that you would attack
>his arm, and IF you hit the arm well enough to incapacticate it, and IF at
>this point he doesn't decide to charge at you with the shield and flatten
>you to the ground (don't knock desperation tactics- I've seen them work more
>often than you would think), then yes, he is doomed.

Yup

>>>I have yet to see *any* version of Traveller which takes this into
>>>account.  Another disadvantage to the fencer is the relative strength of
>>>the blades.  Consider the following example:
>>>
>>>Sir Fop: "I parry your clumsy slash!"
>>>
>>><SFX: broadsword shatters sabre>

I doubt that he'll shatter the blade, unless of course it is inferior
quality... :-)

>>With proper distance (which is the best parry) you needn't worry about this.
>>However, with modern alloys your example is still not valid, unless the
>>steel in the sabre is too brittle. A modern composite blade (akin to Toledo
>>steel) won't shatter like you suggest.

Proper distance? As soon as I notice that my opponet wants distance
where do you think I want to be? As a friend of mine used to say, " if
you can count the holes in his visor you are to far away..." :-)
Worked for him...
What do you mean by "modern composite blade"? Chrom Moly steel for
instance?

>>        Please explain "proper distance".  If you're too far back to be hit,
>>then your opponent has a problem with depth perception.  One has to assume
>>that your opponent wants to hit you, and will maneuver into striking range.
>>From there, you can either attack, duck, move back, or try to parry.  A
>>fencing sabre will not parry a broadsword.  The end result is that the
>>lighter blade gets slapped aside, or worse, it gets bent back and strikes
>>the wielder's body as well as the opponent's sword.  (I've seen this happen
>>several times.)

>Again, this is irrelevant given the speed of my attack with the sabre. Your
>star-faring barbarian and his nifty shield are still going to assume that I
>am committed to one attack, when really I am waiting for my true target. In
>fact if you can see me through your shield you might be at a disadvantage,
>because you are convinced that there is *no way* I could alter my attack.

Excuuuuuuuse Me...
Uh I can remember the night I fought one of our better fighters and took
him out and he said, "Nice fake!" and I said "Hungh?" ( one of my witter
nights. :-) ), I did not fake.
I had, but had not noticed I was doing it...
So the point of this is EVEN with Broadswords we use fakes, fients, and
misdirection, I try never to be convinced that an attack cannot be
altered, there are some points that physics will not allow the change
with out weakining the blow to much.

>        Only if the barbarian was really, really stupid.   It's common sense
>to figure that someone wielding a very light, fast sword would have much
>more control over his blows, leading to a lot of probes and feints.  I
>submit, sir, that your analysis of this combat is far too simplistic.  From
>my experience, a very skilled fencer could defeat a sword-and-shield
>wielding opponent with a bit of luck, but between two opponents of equal
>skill and dexterity, the barbarian has the advantages of a more powerful
>weapon and better armor coverage versus the fencer's speed.  If the
>barbarian is careful and observant and plays on his strengths, he will kill
>the fencer.

Yup, what he said... ;-)

>2) It is still useful to use a long blade in Spaceship combat, because if
>you crack a suit, you generally kill your man. However, to this end, light
>strong blades are preferred to avoid rotational/angular momentum problems
>with a huge windup from a heavy blade. Also you don't need to kill the man
>*in* the suit with your blow...you just need to pop it, or slice a hose, or
>open a wide gash in the fabric. Hence the sport fencing idea of *any hit is
>a kill* holds literally.

>        Plus the fact that there are lots of components on a starship that
>don't hold up well to bullets or lasers.  Stray shots can damage consoles,
>sever power conduits, and the like.  In one game I ran, the players boarded
>a vessel with the intent of capturing it, but in the course of a brief
>firefight on the bridge, managed to shoot many holes in the helm and
>astrogation consoles, plus sever the data link to the ship's computer.

>Mike Lee

I do like this, your battledressed marine with BFG (tm) fusion gun is
going to rearrange a lot of the interior of a ship, I wouldn't recommend
it... ;-)

>On  Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:11:35 -0500, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

>Simply put, if I apply pressure upon the foible of his blade with
>the forte of my blade, I will enjoy a significant mechanical advantage; I
>will have better leverage with which to push his point off target.  In
>order to effectively parry an attack you don't have to stop it cold, just
>make sure it misses you.

>	Therefore, the popular image of the barbarian's broadsword smashing
>the noble's rapier might hold true if the noble were boneheaded and
>unskilled; a better image might be of the noble noting the impending cut,
>glancing at his watch, and rather than stupidly blocking it merely picking
>the barbarian's point up with his blade, sweeping it somewhat off-target,
>and then jamming his point through a tender portion of the barbarian's
>anatomy.  This would be most effective against a downwards cut to the head
>or shoulders (deflect sideways), or a high lateral cut (deflect over head).
>Lower lateral cuts should just be dealt with by a) stop cuts/thrusts or b)
>stepping out of the range of the swing and then feinting to the head...
>shield comes up, and then things get real fun; if he blinds himself with
>it, he deserves whatever is coming to him.  Or as you pointed out,
>out-feint him; flick your point up and down several times and then go for
>his sword arm as it swings back.

Ah here ist is I KNEW I'd foamed at the mouth for a reason...
Oh please flick your sword point up and down...
I'LL HIT you while you are spending the time in a useless exercise, if
it is not a threat I WILL swing.
Blinds himself with what the shield, I have a friend who is uh
Vertically challenged, who takes great delight in hiding behind your
shield and trying to rip you kidneys out...
I KNOW shes back there some where so I try to hit her in the back of the
head... There IS a technique to do this. ;-)
I also use the deflection parry, as well as a direct blow to the
opponets sword, both techniques are usefull...

>        Er, no, sir, that wouldn't work.  Your use of the riposte depends on
>your opponent having a weapon of equal weight.  The broadsword would be two
>to three times heavier, even though we're only talking about a pound for the
>sabre and three pounds for the broadsword.  It makes a big difference.  Like
>your earlier yardstick analogy, when the opponent attempts to press against
>your parry, his stick will flex before it can generate enough force to drive
>you back.  The same would happen with your sabre versus the broadsword- the
>fencing sabre will flex before it can generate enough force to deflect the
>broadsword's thrust significantly.  Trust me- I've got the scars to prove it.

>Mike Lee

Well I have to agree especilly the fencing sabre, which is not as robust
as the sabre used by the caverlry.

>Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:11:35 -0500
>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade" (Cutlass)

>I emerge once again from my work-induced coma to reply to the following
>written by Doctor Vince:

>>
>>At 04:22 PM 3/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>In the T4 rulebook, it mentioned that someone using Fencing would have an
>>>advantage over someone using Blade Combat (or, presumably, Melee Combat
>>>as well).  In reality -- or, at least, in the Society of Creative
>>>Anachronism (SCA) -- a fencer has a major *dis*advantage against other
>>>fighters: *shields*!
>>
?><disclaimer>
>>Not only am I (well I *was*) a sabre fencer, but I also used to routinely
>>paste SCAdian fencers and stickjocks when we could agree on rules*
>></disclaimer>

I have seen the problems that fencers and kendo folks have dealing with
the foreign concept of that counter, uh board on the arm, both on their
arm and more to the point, on the opponet, the biggest problem seems to
be getting the sword back out in a way that makes it usefull.

>>	Greetings, fellow ex-fencer... I fenced ep=E9e for about 6 years (3
>>of them on the McGill fencing team) before law school ruined my schedule
>>for me :).  Did a bit of sabre, too.  Never fenced a SCAdian; just talked
>>shop with them.

>
>>First problem: Assuming Imperial standard armament development akin to what
>>we have in the 20th century, show me the unit that routinely kits its
>>troopers with shields in anything more than archaic full dress. I submit
>>that they don't. Shields are big, unweildy, and and detract from the amount
>>of ammunition or the weapons you can carry.

>	Good point; only modern example that I can think of are those
>plastic shields that riot police carry; good against rocks, bottles, and so
>forth, but I would suspect little good against much else...

Which is a VERY speclized subset of police work.
They are not much use against firearms never mind the higher tech
weapons, BFG(tm) fusion rifle anyone?

>
>Second problem: Shields are a good equalizer, but no one is going to take o=
n
>a barbarian with long blade and shield if he has a pistol or small arm at
>hand. If he *doesn't* have a firearm at hand, the fencer can *still* paste
>the barbarian, by applying the advantage that fencing gives you, namely
>speed and distance. The barbarian is always trying to get up close to you.
>All you need to do is keep him at a distance.

If I have Mr. firearm, if not I am not goingto risk my life with a foil
unless there is no alternative... ;-)

>	Indeed.  Assuming equal levels of physical fitness, the barbarian
>will tire more quickly given the heavier weapon not to mention the weight
>of the shield.  As far as range is going, it occurs to me that having the
>shield arm out front, will a) affect his lunge somewhat from a balance
>point of view, and b) slow down his recovery from a lunge, as he can't haul
>himself back up into stance with his off arm.  Given that he's leading with
>his unarmed arm, his effective distance/lethal radius while using the
>shield will be lower than yours.  So the fencer, assuming a lack of
>obstructions, will have a speed and mobility advantage.

Xcuse me? see rant above about broadswords being evloved clubs, you do
not Lunge with one - useless move, which only will result in your
exposure to your opponet, You WANT the shield in front and your sword
arm back in order for it to have the power neccessary to penitrate
armor...
Yessss you can't throw a blow through your own shield, you can however
start your blow from behind your shield and move it as the blow passes
through, this does two things, usually the opponet does not see it start
so he has less time to react to it, and keeps you covered longer.
We have tracked sword tips at about 200 - 250 miles an hour... You will
have a speed and mobility advantage, smaller that you think.

>
>While I will submit that hitting someone at the exteme range of your blade
>makes for shallow and usually non-life threatening wounds, they hurt like
>hell, throw off your opponents attacks, and hinder his movement. That is
>usually good enough to allow for an opening to either escape or to do some
>*real* damage once the opposing blade is taken care of.

Uh, then there is the effect of armor... Tip will scratch it p****** off
the owner... :-)

>	Then there's the effect on morale... and this is my ep=E9e bias
>showing, but there are a lot of places where a mere four-cm deep puncture
>wound can put you in intensive care or the morgue.  A punctured lung is
>apparently a very unpleasant thing to suffer :).

Ya sure ya betcha... Wanna bet you will have a hard timegetting through
to the lungs, and while you are trying you have just put your head and
body in MY range... ;-)

>	Assuming he's not using a weapon with a basket hilt, you can always
>cut for his hand and make sure that he has to zip up his fur loincloth with
>his teeth from then on...

Are we assuming that Mr. Barbarian is buck naked ?
Don't know about you but I wear gantlets, and a basket hilt, you could
go for the fingers, Please... ;-)

>	Therefore, the popular image of the barbarian's broadsword smashing
>the noble's rapier might hold true if the noble were boneheaded and
>unskilled; a better image might be of the noble noting the impending cut,
>glancing at his watch, and rather than stupidly blocking it merely picking
>the barbarian's point up with his blade, sweeping it somewhat off-target,
>and then jamming his point through a tender portion of the barbarian's
>anatomy.  This would be most effective against a downwards cut to the head
>or shoulders (deflect sideways), or a high lateral cut (deflect over head).
>Lower lateral cuts should just be dealt with by a) stop cuts/thrusts or b)
>stepping out of the range of the swing and then feinting to the head...
>shield comes up, and then things get real fun; if he blinds himself with
>it, he deserves whatever is coming to him.  Or as you pointed out,
>out-feint him; flick your point up and down several times and then go for
>his sword arm as it swings back.


< Uh Oh, he's goin to foam at the mouth... >

If Mr. Noble is going to take the time to look at his watch He IS DOA.
that is PERIOD.
unless of course it is a hidden lazer pistole... :-)

Mr. Barbarian has a mad on for some reason and he is not going to wait
for Mr. Noble to get ready, and if you look away from your opponet you
deserve what you get...
Ok here is another thing: Mr. Barbarian has spent his life with his
sword, axe, mace and the other implments of destruction, that is what he
does it is his life, he is going to have a d***** good idea fo what cam
and can't be done with weapons...
He also is used to his armor, it will not bother him at all.
AND for my next point... :-)
The rapier and the sabre did not become popular due to them being the
most devistating weapon on the block, the dieing out of armor was mostly
to blame, and that was caused by several reasons:
1) economic, Armor is EXPENSIVE, for what it costs to put an armored man
in the field you could feild 20 equiped with muskets.
2) Firearms... Armorers found that you could make armor that was proof
against arrows, or bullets, but not both and be practicle.
( even more expensive... )
I haven't even gone into the other weapon forms such as pole arms...

>	Dammit... I am really getting the urge to suit up and go to town on
>someone... trouble is, I doubt if I'd fit into my gear anymore :(.

Uh, I can and do, every Thursday...

< Disclamer >
Fighter in SCA 17 yrs + (Acccck) fencer, one of my friends a Count Sca
fighter who is quite good, also teaches fencing, he and I have worked on
and discussed this at length, at our rene faire I work on rapier style
with one of our better fencers...
I wouldn't call myself an expert but...

C ya
Jim

Sir Cealmhain (SCA)
Sir Martin Birkhead (RPFN)

R
- -- 
Remember: no matter where you go...
There you are...
B. Banzi

James M. Kelleher
kelleher@holonet.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1063
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 12 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1064



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

K'Kree and the Virus
Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)
Re: Vargr Computers (was Death of K'kree)
Re: [TML] EDU (Longer than necessary)
Re: Battle Dress
Scanned sector maps?
Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION
Re: Economics in T4 [LONG]
Re: FF&S fuel tank statistics
Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION
Re: FF&S fuel tank statistics
Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)
Re: Economics
[TML] EDU...Finally!
Ael Yael
A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 18:34:59 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: K'Kree and the Virus

K.C Komosky wrote:
>	Something thatI'm arguing,though,is even after K'kree computers 
>are compromiseed, the effects would be less. Referring back to Book 8 
>(which I don't have in front of me, so bear with me) is that the K'kree 
>make extensive use of dumbots, and don't like handing any real power over 
>to computers.

But even dumbots are capable of being used by the virus.  Maybe each
dumbot won't be a independent creature, but they are stilled controlled
by a master bot which is sentient.  So instead of a dozen different
janitorial robots chasing you around your house, you have 12 perfectly
coordinated robots acting with one mind chasing you. Seems a bit nastier.

I like the idea, that the Virus acts a bit differently because of the
different computer systems.  

Another difference between Imperial and K'Kree space, is that the
Imperials put computers in everything, from elevators to airrafts.  I
got the feeling that the K'Kree didn't bother automating so much of
their systems.  Is this right?, if so, it will help your point that the
effects of the Collapse are less.  

So here is how I see it. Virus hits the 2K Worlds, it easily takes over
most of the robots it encounters, due to their interconnectivaty and
the K'Kree's low level of sophestication.  The Virus can also can
infect many devices like ships, but can not take over complete control,
because the K'Kree haven't bothered to automate their ships. (Much like
the RC does in 1200)   Virus would probably be able to destroy or
shutdown the part that it does infect, but not suicide and take out
lots of K'Kree with in.  The virus infected ship won't be able to blow
itself up, or dive into the planet's surface, just burn out the
motherboard of the main computer.   

This would result in, a general lowering of technology, because lots of
devices had key components burn themselves out, but the Virus wasn't
able to cause massive amounts of carnage like it did everywhere else. 
Also don't the K'Kree live on planets where they don't need massive
life support systems.  So the K'Kree would be left at a lower technolgy
level, but mostly intact.  There would also be large numbers of packs
of killer robots running around on these planets.  
In space there would be very few Vampire ships, only the occasionally
ship which the Virus was able to infect every system.  You might get
ships, where different systems are controlled by different Virus
strains, and they have to cooperate to operate the ship.  Their orders
would be carried back and forth by robots or captive K'Kree slaves.  

I don't think the K'Kree would be able to maintain a interstellar
government, but would break up into lots of smaller planetary governments.  

How do the K'Kree treat their minor races, are they allowed to own
ships, colonize the planets K'Kree don't like, do they use more automation?

What do you think of that?  

>	However, once the Hivers get their act together, and start 
>chasing out all the Virus-infested, computer-heavy Hiver warships, I 
>think quite a few might migrate towards the 2000 Worlds.
 
Why towards the 2000 worlds instead of somewhere else, I'd think they
would migrate away from the Federation, in any direction.  Its not a
bad idea, I just wanted more of a reason.

>	Oh, TBW - the comment about the K'kreegoing along with the Virus? 
>I don't think so - the K'kree are some of the biggest bigots in 
>Traveller.They don't take orders from ANYBODY.

Yeah, after I sent that in, I was thinking about this, you are right, I
just had this idea of a giant cyborg herbivore saying "I am K'Kree of
Borg, resistance is futile, you will be assimilated and eat grass"  :)

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is yellow, smooth and deadly?
A:Shark infested pudding.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 16:48:14 -0700
From: Mark <bdmahan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

>Well, in martial arts, there are lots of "breaking techniques", which
>would a good fighter allow, to hit *through* the armory. That's just a
>matter of Ki, as a proper m-artist would say.

I have never heard of anyone punching a fist, foot or head though a piece 
of steel.  I seen bricks and wood broken, but when the brick is part of a 
wall the bones break first.  I don't think anyone in battle dress would 
worry about martial arts attacks unless the attacker were wearing battle 
dress.  I will be proved wrong when someone punch or kicks though the 
side of a car.  
Striker; Panther TL 6 side - 15;  Battle dress TL 14 - 18
Striker II; Armored car TL4 - 4;   Battle dress TL 10 - 4

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:47:03 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: Vargr Computers (was Death of K'kree)

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:17:59 -0500 (EST), Dedly@aol.com wrote:

>Roger Myhre wrote up the Gvurrdon sector (see Joe Heck's Missouri =
Archive) on
>the premise that the Vargr were susceptible to Virus. His c.1200 data
>indicates that the Vargr nation-states in Windhorn, Provence, Tuglikki, =
and a
>good chunk of Gvurrdon were steam-rolled by Virus due to a Vargr neglect=
 of
>infrastructure. I don't know what he background he used to develop this =
and
>whether or not it's canon. I tend to agree with this assessment based on=
 the
>limited materials I've had to read about them.

What I used is the map in Survival Margin (SM) on page 85. The Virus
stopped with help of Domain of Deneb to create a buffer zone. AS I
decided at one time that Thoengling Empire was Imperial friendly
welcomed the help from Deneb. Zhodani and the Empire did also pressure
Thirz Empire (a Zhodani friendly state) and Society of Equals to end
their disputes so that a firmer border could be established against
the Virus.

The Vargr lack of coordination a cooperation in large groups was the
main reason for the collapse of most of Vargr space. One thing that
did help, when the Virus was finaly brought to a halt was the
information structure in vargr space. As most compueters are
incompatible, information is exchanged in print or microfilm.


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:32:26 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU (Longer than necessary)

Bill Rutherford wrote:

>
>I've been reading (and occasionally fuelling) the EDU debates and conclude
>that EDU is one of the following:
>
>1.  EDU represents formal knowledge.  There've been several notes that this
>includes the ability to learn - the mindset one acquires (if lucky...) in
>school.  EDU goes up (esp. during chargen) mainly by attending schools. Max
>= F.  My percieved problem: If EDU is more oriented towards formal
>education, then it appears way too often as an attr in task resolution.
>Many tasks listing EDU, defined in this way, might better served by using
>INT...
>


	Which means that this definition is broken...


>or
>
>2.  EDU represents one's accumulated life-knowledge and wisdom, NOT
>necessarily gained through formal education.  Leonard Erickson suggested
>that EDU was akin to the old D&D WIS.  Max = F.  My percieved problem:  If
>EDU is more of a life-experience sorta thing, then its fixed manner of
>increasing with schooling (4 yrs college = +4 EDU) is a bit weird - several
>posters (whose names I'm too lazy to look up) have suggested limiting, or at
>least making variable, EDU increases during chargen.


	...as well as this one.  Neither one, IMHO, makes much sense.


>
>It seems, then, that there are two uses for EDU.  The former, accumulated
>knowledge based on formal education, has problems in the skills with which
>it's associated.  The latter, general life experience, has problems in how
>it's acquired during chargen.  One or the other needs to give...


	What I think is that the stat is fundamentally misconceived.
Basically,character systems are about mapping human attributes and
abilities onto paper.  Some aspects of being a human are innate, basic to
being a human being, whereas others are acquired culturally (i.e. learned).

	Now, what is the education process that this EDU stat is supposed
to represent? People go to school or through another learning process, and
acquire skills and knowledges.  In a system like T4, this can be reflected
extremely well through... adding skills to the character.  Education as an
attribute, being used to compound skills acquired by education in a task
roll, really strikes me as not making much sense.  The basic problem
solving process, so far as I conceive of it, involves using intelligence to
apply acquired skills and knowledges to the situation.  Two individuals of
equal intelligence and equal skill/knowledge on a topic ought to, IMHO,
have the same target number, irrespective of numbers of years of
schooling...

	I think that the next time I run a Traveller campaign, I'm going to
mess with the attributes, and try and come up with something a little bit
more conceptually elegant.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:43:50 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
>         I would not put it past players to try and do _*ANYTHING*_,
> especially if it involves large-caliber weapons and high explosives.  In
> fact the more destruction that is likely to result, the more probable they
> are to try it.
> 
>         Especially mine.
> 
>         <sigh...>
You have that "problem" as well?I thought it was just an Ulster
foible.:)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:23:42 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Scanned sector maps?

Something I asked in and among the flurry of other stuff ->

Has anyone scanned the FS Core data in yet?  I am planning on using a small
postscript program I wrote to give me subsector maps, and I really do not
want to have to retype those.

I do own FS, as well as every other T4 supplement, so I am not trying to
deny anyone fair profit from the maps, I just want to get maps more suited
to my own style of play.

I also am planning on writing some auto scavengers to go through the data
and generate new law levels as well as eliminating many of the worlds with
reasonable tech and populations between 1 and 1 million people.  I just do
not think those are long term stable, and thus should be placed carefully.

Clearly, these changes are not canon, but I want to have a set of numbers
that my players can believe.  They are already thinking me a bit strange
for sticking too long to the borders given in FS.  They liked the M0
borders a bit more.

Scott 
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:23:41 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION

>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:48:20 -0600 (CST)
>Joe Walsh wrote
>> This is just a thought, but has IG (or Marc) made any plans to upgrade The
>> Traveller Adventure for T4 and re-release it?

>At this point, and to the best of my knowledge, there are no plans to 
>re-release The Traveller Adventure.  Let us get through this year's 
>schedule before we start packing next year's! <Grin>

You have a good point.  My top three adventures were:

1.  The Traveller adventure was one of the most detail rich and interesting
adventures I ran.

2.  Knightfall was by far the best organized and easiest to run adventure I
saw in any Traveller incarnation.  The nugget/flow chart approach is very
slick, and a variant should be in the back of every designer's mind.

3.  Twilight's peak.  Yes, it is hokey in some ways (specifically, any
Ancient adventure is going to be a bit hokey.  I and my players still love
them.), and it is short compared with the other two, but it has a lot of
playability that many other Traveller adventures did not have.  After going
away from it, the players spent months trying to unravel the various loose
ends this one brought up, like what, exactly, the various villains were up
to, and why the various hints to the Octagon still existed.  Also, were
they going to make a profit off the anti matter battery (nobody in three
groups has managed it), and the two stepping disks (all three found a way
to turn those into great wealth)...

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:23:40 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics in T4 [LONG]

>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:28:35 +0100
>From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
><snippety snip>
>>I ruled that an industrial trade code was worth two tech levels of
>>production.  Non industrial was the same in the opposite direction.  The
>>world is assumed to have a standard level of production at everything else.
><snappety snap>
>
>As NonIn are the flip side of In I'd say give the In two levels for
>industrial goods and NonIn the opposite but the reverse for resources. this
>gives the image of all those NonIn worlds feeding the giant In worlds with
>resources that trinket back in the form of gadgets et c. I wholly agree to
>the 20% per TL (multiplicative) rule.

I like that.  IN worlds are resource poor because their industries are
gobbling the local resources at a tremendous rate.  This might justify
shuttling resources in on a starship, which is rarely profitable.  NI
worlds are not using local resources as fast as they can be dug up, so
there is a surplus which might be to a player's benefit.

In the same vein - in my new and improved sector maps, I am making up trade
codes based entirely on allocations of people, and ignoring the UPP.
(except, of course, for WA, DE, VA, BA, and so on.)  Might it make sense,
then, to create a new trade code, such as "RE" for resource rich and "NR"
for resource poor.  These worlds would give bonuses/minuses for resources,
and perhaps would affect the IN/NI ratings, or at least would indicate
whether or not there was thriving trade in resources.

I understand that Pocket Empires is going to have an expanded UWP that
includes the ratings of the individual planet in various area, including
resources.  I expect it is going to look a lot like the expanded tech level
UWP.  Perhaps this could be somehow related.  I am looking forward to this
supplement.

>Thanks for this well thought out post on economics. Keep 'em coming.

Thank you for the reply.  This is fun - the many positive and negative
comments have made me rethink major parts of what I wrote.  The unexamined
document is not worth writing?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:28:16 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S fuel tank statistics

At 04:53 pm 03/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm working on a program that aids in the design
>of starships using FF&S as a basis.  I cannot seem
>to find any information on the mass, cost and 
>power requirements to store liquid hydrogen anywhere.

	There is no mass, cost or power requirement for fuel tankage, other than
the (obvious) volume and mass of the fuel itself. Thus, 1,400 cubic meters
of liquid hydrogen masses 100 tonnes and requires 1,400 cubic meters of
volume.

	-- The Heretic Famine, of the Four Horsemen of Traveller
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:34:41 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

At 07:56 am 03/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>	I've just come to the startling theological realization that there
>is a Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse.  His name is Really Annoying People
>Who Write Posts (Often 1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat
>Things Attached To The End.
>
>	I rank him as somewhat worse than War and Pestilence put together,
>and suspect that he's related to the twin Sixth and Seventh Horsemen,
>Pyramid and Porno Usenet Spam Postings and Spam Mail Bots.
>
>	Of course, given that Really Annoying People Who Write Posts (Often
>1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat Things Attached To The
>End are the Spawn of Bill Gates, this has interesting implications about
>Microsoft, not to mention Bill himself.
>

	For those who weren't around a while back, here's the answer, courtesy of
Don McKinney. Although I understand it doesn't always work (thanks, Bill).

	-- Famine, of the Four Horsemen of Traveller Heresy

>From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com>
>Subject: WINMAIL.DAT annoyances...
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:49:07 CST
>Sender: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
>Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Content-Length: 1812
>
>This isn't really Traveller related, but since this crops up, I'd like
>to give out this info, and see it added to the FAQ:
>
>HOW TO GET RID OF THE "WINMAIL.DAT" ATTACHMENT IN MICROSOFT EXCHANGE:
>
>1.	Double-click on the "Mail and Fax" icon in "Control Panel".
>2.	Click on the "Services" tab, and select "Internet Mail" from the
>	list.  If "Internet Mail" is not listed, click "Add" to add this
>	service.
>3.	Click "Properties", and then "Message Format".
>4.	Turn off the option that reads "Use MIME when sending messages".
>5.	Click "OK" and then "OK" again.
>6.	Double-click on the name of each recipient in your "Address Book".
>7.	Turn off the option that reads "Always send to this recipient in
>	Microsoft rich-text format".
>
>Now, once this is done, Exchange will put equal signs "=" at the end of
>each line.  To get rid of this last quirk:
>
>8.	Open the "Internet Mail Properties" window, and click on the 
>	"General" tab.
>9.	Select "Message Format", and then "Character Set".
>10.	Change the character set from "ISO-8859-2" to "US ASCII".
>
>Sorry for taking everyone's time on a problem that isn't pertinent, but it
>should help clean up the list.  Credit the "Windows95 Annoyances" site
>for these fixes, that's where I found them (www.creativeelement.com/win95ann)
>at...
>--
>============================================================================
>= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 = 
>= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com =
>= Winter War XXIV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 14-16, 1997 =
>= Official Kibitzer and Archivist for Digest Group Publications            =
>= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 = 
>============================================================================
>
>
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:19:47 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> 3.  Twilight's peak.  Yes, it is hokey in some ways (specifically, any
> Ancient adventure is going to be a bit hokey.  I and my players still love
> them.), and it is short compared with the other two, but it has a lot of
> playability that many other Traveller adventures did not have.  After going
> away from it, the players spent months trying to unravel the various loose
> ends this one brought up, like what, exactly, the various villains were up
> to, and why the various hints to the Octagon still existed.  Also, were
> they going to make a profit off the anti matter battery (nobody in three
> groups has managed it), and the two stepping disks (all three found a way
> to turn those into great wealth)...

One thing always bothered me about this scenario:
Why did the Octagon Society build their shelter right on top of an Ancient
site?  I suppose it could be coincidental, but it seems very unlikely.

                                                               - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 97 14:24:14 +0000
From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Subject: Re: FF&S fuel tank statistics

- --smxr-9703121427286193
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

Hello Eric, on 11 Mar you said: 

>I'm working on a program that aids in the design of starships using FF&S 
>as a basis. I cannot seem to find any information on the mass, cost and 
>power requirements to store liquid hydrogen anywhere.

>Page 42 under Jump Drives says "Fuel tankage itself is under Section 8, 
>Power Production.".  Looking in Section 8, I can find the price and mass 
>of different fuels on page 63, but no tankage stats.  

   Well, it may not be mentioned explicitly, but standard Fuel tankage is 
free, takes no power, no surface area and has no mass. It is assumed to be 
included in the internal structure. The volume will, of course, be the 
amount of fuel you want to store. The mass, when loaded, is the mass of the 
fuel. 

Hope that helps,
James Dempsey.
jamesd@spirit.com.au   

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:12:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

	Howdy!

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Harald Budschedl wrote:

> Well, in martial arts, there are lots of "breaking techniques", which
> would a good fighter allow, to hit *through* the armory. That's just a
> matter of Ki, as a proper m-artist would say.

	A lot of "breaking techniques" are for demonstration.  Grappling
and throwing styles were applied against people who were well armoured in
the past.  Striking styles had other methods of dealing with armoured
opponents (weapons, anyone?).

	Paranoia Press had a martial arts skill that they published in the
Scouts and Assassins book, as well as one or two others.  Someone should
post it for feedback.


	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:40:14 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics

 
> These "nearly technologically competitive" planets can do quite well, as
> the goods they produce are likely good enough for many purposes.  If chips
> are expensive to ship, for example, one can likely use labor in almost any
> partly industrialized country to assemble sealed hard drives and
> motherboards into working, tested computers.  The local industry might not
> be up to building a Pentium/PPC fab plant, but it certainly can build
> cases, cables, PC boards, and so on.

	Assembly of hi-tech goods is only a rather minor export of 
undeveloped countries in the modern world.  Most of the clothing, shoes, 
toys, and other such consumer goods that we use every day are produced in 
very poor and low-tech countries like China, Egypt, and India.  The 
production of textiles, for instance, is low-tech and very labor 
intensive.  Low-tech worlds in the Imperium will likely produce similar 
goods.
 
> The TL4 culture is a completely different story. I would be surprised if
> the archetypical family in the TL4 area making $2 a day could afford such a
> car?
	
	No, they can't afford a car, but they can and will spend money on 
Coke.  A woman I know from Uzbekistan was telling just the other day how 
they flew a plane-load of coke into her village and people were spending 
a weeks wages for a six-pack.
 
> Only if the multiple suppliers brings the price down to where an individual
> can afford it.

	I think this is where you've made your mistake.  Individuals will 
not be the principle customers of off-world trade.  Corporations and 
governments will.  Any world with a decent financial system will 
recognize the economic sense of buying things that will pay back their 
purchase price many times over in increased efficiency.  Communication, 
transportation, power generation, machine tools, etc. will all be very 
attractive purchases. Anyone who can scrape the money together will want 
to invest in these goods.

> There are two cases.  The first case assumes that high tech worlds produce
> so much stuff that selling all that the low tech worlds want is a no
> brainer, and the other case assumes that it is hard to make goods, and so
> if they sell some stuff to a low tech world, then they are not selling to a
> high tech one.

	I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Hi-tech worlds will 
sell their output to whoever can pay the most.  Logically, the people 
that will pay the most will be those who can put those goods to the best 
use.  For many TL-12 goods, the largest market will be Sylea itself.  
This does not mean that low-tech worlds will not be a market for these 
goods, even if only a small market.
	The other question I believe you are raising is whether low-tech 
worlds will have something the Imperial traders want in return for their 
goods.  Raw materials are an obvious option, but if the world lacks even 
these, then some trade development may be in order.  Explain to the 
local business people that investing in the shoe factory the plans and 
parts to which you would be happy to sell them on credit would allow them 
produce a good marketable on Sylea.  With something worth trading, they 
could buy hi-tech Sylean goods which you would also be happy to sell 
them, all assuming of course, that they sign a 10-year exclusive trade 
contract with you.
	
Happy Travelling

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 23:23:04 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: [TML] EDU...Finally!

On 03/11/97 at 06:32 PM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott
<rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca> said:

> The basic problem solving process, so far as I conceive of it,
> involves using intelligence to apply acquired skills and knowledges
> to the situation.  Two individuals of equal intelligence and equal
> skill/knowledge on a topic ought to, IMHO, have the same target
> number, irrespective of numbers of years of schooling...

By Jove, I think he's got it! ;->

I use INT as a PC's raw intellegence, perception and quickwitedness. I use
EDU as a different mode of intellegence...the PC's scholarly abilities, the
ability to handle the sort of skills you learn in a school or from a book. 
(I'd be happy to change the name from EDU to REAsoning or SCHolarship.)  I
add WILL..for willpower, and CHArisma for a PC's social intellegence.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:05:59 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Ael Yael

>From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
>
>The Ael Yael are a race of intelligent cold-blooded flyers.  ( ie
>pteradons with intelligence ).  They are from Jaeleya in the Gushmege
>sector.  They were first contacted in JTAS, but which number I am still
>unsure of. ( My now ex-girlfriend recently moved out and things are still
>not in order here and I cant seem to locate it ).

Contact: The Ael Yael, by the Keith brothers, 15 JTAS p.13.  I don't see any reference 
to them being cold-blooded, but they do fly.  Their homeworld is Jaeyelya, which must 
later have been put into Gushemege sector.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:45:18 +0700
From: Lee Shing Ket <ketlee@pl.jaring.my>
Subject: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

Hi,

Please kindly surf to and bookmark our Beach Resort Website
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/hotel.htm

A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
http://www.jaring.my/sabah/turtle.htm

Looking for an Inbound Tour Operator, Beringgis Marina & Tours !
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/tour.htm

Contact our Airline Company, AirAsia Airline !
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/airline.htm

Require a Personal Accidents Insurance on travelling !
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/insure.htm

What a fascinating local events 1997 !
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/events97.htm 

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further
information.

Thank you

Regards,

Isaac KWONG
Information Technology Department
Beringgis Beach Resort
P.O.Box : 674, 88858 Tanjung Aru, Sabah, Malaysia.
Website : http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/hotel.htm
Email : mailto:sabah@geocities.com
Voice : 6-088-752333
Fax :   6-088-752999
Internet Phone, Free Tel : ketlee@pl.jaring.my

- --------------------
"I almost cried when I saw how beautiful God had made this paradise."
said by Luciano Pavarotti.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:52:18 +0700
From: Lee Shing Ket <ketlee@pl.jaring.my>
Subject: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

Hi,

Please kindly surf to and bookmark our Beach Resort Website
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/hotel.htm

A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
http://www.jaring.my/sabah/turtle.htm

Looking for an Inbound Tour Operator, Beringgis Marina & Tours !
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/tour.htm

Contact our Airline Company, AirAsia Airline !
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/airline.htm

Require a Personal Accidents Insurance on travelling !
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/insure.htm

What a fascinating local events 1997 !
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/events97.htm 

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further
information.

Thank you

Regards,

Isaac KWONG
Information Technology Department
Beringgis Beach Resort
P.O.Box : 674, 88858 Tanjung Aru, Sabah, Malaysia.
Website : http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/hotel.htm
Email : mailto:sabah@geocities.com
Voice : 6-088-752333
Fax :   6-088-752999
Internet Phone, Free Tel : ketlee@pl.jaring.my

- --------------------
"I almost cried when I saw how beautiful God had made this paradise."
said by Luciano Pavarotti.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1064
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 12 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1065



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Orbital stations quesiton
House Rule: Sensors
A BIT more on alien books
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
Re: Alien Books and NEW: Milieu release schedule
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
Re: THUDDD Entries
Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins
Re: A BIT more on alien books
Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Battle Dress

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:10:31 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:55:23 +0000
> From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
> Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...
> 
> At 16:56 10/03/97 -0500, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> >I don't know what is worse, the foolish and arrogant programmers who
> >assume that everyone uses WINMAIL and therefore the default setting
> >should send the <expletive deleted> encoded <expletive deleted>
> >winmail.dat files,

[Much Evil Snipped]

> Then, and this is an optional extra reserved for only the *most* foolish
> and ignorant, you send a message to a mailing list saying that all is well,
> and cut and paste a couple of lines of a winmail.dat onto the end as a sort
> of "joke".  Boy do you feel foolish and sheepish (and other embarrasing
> 'ish'es) for doing that when people tell you that their mail reader
> interpreted it as an attachment :-(.

	My mail reader & operating system (Netscape 3.0 under Windows 95) was
so confused over whether or not it was an attachment that it would not
let me read the rest of the digest, could not open it, could not save
it, would not let me delete it & generally gave me grief. :(  If anyone
is willing could someone please delete those lines & send me Digest
#1061. I'm pretty sure if I get it myself from the archive it will be in
the same unreadable form.

What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
destroy Redmond, WA ?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:32:45 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Orbital stations quesiton

I have lots of difficulties to understand why orbital stations are
interesting 

1- Travelling : As the contragrav lifters technology exists, and require
only MW, it is easy for starships to land on planets. The fuel enxpenditure
can be very small.

2- Trading : As for travelling, orbital bases don't reduces costs, instead
they add some handling of cargos.

3- Observation : this is the only point i see, because the atmosphere of
the planet doesn't interfere (or less) with the detections devices, the
resolution and precision of observation should be better from orbital
stations than from the ground of planets.

4- Military defenses : Orbital stations have more weak points than ground
bases. They will do easy targets, they are easy to detect and no very
bulky. This will cost much more money to have the same defensive
effectiveness than a ground base. Some big installations would be harder to
build. May be the observation aspects would be interesting. But small
drones or satellites could do the job.

5- Research : Except the observation point, orbital stations won't be very
usfull. They might be expensive to build and would be quite static. A
converted spaceship or starship would be more flexible and easier to build.

6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 


Does anyone have any opinion on this subject ?


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:05:51 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: House Rule: Sensors

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I have written a document that hopefully will simplify the use of
sensors.


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

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HIWG DOC	: 142.19
DATE	      : 12. MARCH 1997
TITLE	      : SENSOR RULES FOR TRAVELLER
By	      : Roger Myhre


PURPOSE
- -------
To simplify the sensor rules in Traveller. Not that I feel it is =
necessary, but due to the fact that many people have difficulties with =
dealing with how the rules are written. As an old sensor operator from =
the Royal Norwegian Navy, I can say that the rules presented in BL is a =
very simplified model of the real thing. I will try to make the things a =
bit more realistic, but not more difficult to use.

Some may react to how easy there is to detect things in with these rules,=
 but consider this. Where do you hide in space? As on a planet there are =
no clouds to hide the IR signature behind. Neither is there a horizon to =
duck under.  Just a wast stretch of nothingness.


CONVERSIONS
- -----------
DIFFICULTY MODIFIERS
As the rules are meant to be used with several types incarnation to =
Traveller, I will use a generic system that should fit into MT task =
system and the TNE task system. As I haven't studied the T4 system too =
well I think you'll have to tweak the system a bit to make it fit. CT I =
have never used or owned so I don't know how the system will fare there.

Generally when there is positive numbers it will make the task simpler =
and vice versa. In TNE add the modifier to the asset before the roll. In =
MT it is a straight DM with a max of eight in either positive or negative=
 numbers. In T4 positive numbers are added to the skill before the roll, =
and negative numbers subtracted.

DIFFICULTY LEVEL
In all types of Traveller the difficulty is at Difficult level. In MT =
that is a target number of 11. In TNE it is asset times one. And in T4 it=
 is 2.5D against asset.


PROCEDURES
- ----------
DECLARATION PHASE
All units declare if they will go active or passive this turn. They do =
also declare what kind of sensors they will be using if any. If there is =
several players combating each other this is done secretly. Before any =
units can be targeted they have to be detected. As BL assumes everyone is=
 sort of detected, but not properly pin pointed and identified. That's =
why we use the green blobs at the start of the BL game.

DM CALCULATION
The scanning unit adds up his DMs. The defending unit add up his. The =
defending DMs are then subtracted from the attacking players (or added if=
 the defender got positive DMs)

ACTIVE SENSOR SCANS
Determine the rangeband of the sensor the target are in. Find the =
signature DM from the defending craft and add them up (or subtract)
Example: An active sensor tries to detect a bogey at medium range. This =
gives a DM of +5. The defending craft is a 200 ton SL needle crafts with =
EMM. This gives a defending DM of 0. (0+1+0-1). This gives the attacking =
scanning unit a DM of 5.

ACTIVE SENSOR AGAINST JAMMING
The procedure is the same as the procedure above, but subtract the Jammer=
 DM. To improve the chances of jamming the jamming player may roll a =
difficult task. On a success the jammer may add an additional -2. =
Additional modification is the TL difference. This modification is added =
or subtracted from the jamming task roll.

PASSIVE SCANNING AGAINST ACTIVE SENSOR
Add the active sensor DM to the passive sensor DM and add 5.
Example: An active sensor got a short range of 5 while a passive sensor =
got a short range of 3. The units are 15 hexes apart. This is at Extreme =
range for the passive sensor, which gives a -10. A range of 15 is medium =
range of the active sensor which is a strength of 0. Adding these two =
numbers together gives a DM of -10. Then the special DM of plus 5 is =
added giving a total of -5.

Sensing against jamming sources uses the same procedure, just invert the =
jamming table. Short range is a signal strength of 15 and so on.

PASSIVE SENSOR AGAINST IR SIGNATURE.
Add the passive sensor DM to the crafts IR signature. Remember to modify =
the IR signature depending on Acceleration, direction and so on.

PASSIVE EMS SCANNING
If the passive sensor is an EMS sensor use the signature that gives the =
best detection chance. All other scans just gives supplemental =
information that can help identify the craft.

DENSITOMETER SCANS
=46ind the gravity signature of the scanned craft. This signature is the =
signature strength of the first hex (the hex the craft occupy). The DM is=
 halved for every hex from the scanned unit to the scanning unit. Round =
to nearest whole number. When you reach 1 the next hex it will be 0. From=
 there on double the numbers from -1. Detection is considered automatic =
far as the numbers are 2 or more in the gravity signature.

Example. A 2430ton craft has a signature of 49 at the adjacent it is 25 =
and then 13 and then 7, 4, 2, 1, 0 at the eighth hex.


TABLES
- ------
SENSORS
Range\Type  Active  Passive  Jammer =20
Short        10       5        0
Medium        5       0       -5
Long          0      -5      -10
Extreme      -5     -10      -15

RADAR CROSS SECTION
The RCS can be found by using this chart.
    Size    RCS
      -1    -2
     -10    -1
    -100     0
   -1000     1
  -10000     2
 -100000     3
- -1000000     4

 1000001+    5


HULL FORM  MODIFIER
Hull form      DM
Needle          1
Wedge           1
Cylinder        1
Box             2
Sphere          0
Dome/Disc       1
Close Structure 2
Slab            3

Streamlining affects the signature as following: USL +3, AF and SL +0 EMM=
 gives -1

IR SIGNATURE
IR signature is from the crafts powerplant and maneuver drive. The =
signature of the powerplant is calculated like this: square root of MW =
output divided on 10. Round to nearest whole number. It is then adjusted =
according to drive. Heplar and Fusion rocket =3D2 per G of acceleration =
when the plume is facing the scanning unit. 1 per two G when away. From =
the side there is 1 per G. Thrusters gives +1 if facing scanning unit. =
EMM gives -2. Running at minimum power gives additional -5

DENSITOMETER SENSING
This will only give general direction (+/-5 degrees) and approximate =
movement direction. Range for fire resolution must be acquired with other=
 sensors. The signature is calculated like this: Square root of weight of=
 craft + 2 if using G compensators + 2 per G if using Thrusters. Round to=
 nearest whole number. Detection is considered to be automatic if the =
gravity signature is 2 or more. A task roll is necessary if the signature=
 drops below 2 or if there is a planet in the same direction or close to =
the craft.

UCP LISTING
- -----------
WHY?
So that there are no need to calculate all the data for each time a =
starship encounter is taking place.

=46ORMAT
It should be placed in a box at the top of the sheet/page where the UCP =
is listed.
Example:
RCS   IR         Gravitic  Target size DM
 +3   3(2-1-1/2)    32      See below

This example is a ship with Heplar drive. The IR section list the =
Powerplant IR signature outside the parenthesis, and the drive signature =
inside the parenthesis. The format is as following: Aft, Side and then =
Front per acceleration gee. So if the craft is scanned from behind while =
it accelerates 2gee the scanning unit gets a modification of 7 (3+4).

Target size DM is handled as the rules states in the different Traveller =
version.

ADVANCED RULES
- --------------
2 TYPES OF JAMMIING
There is basically ways to jam a sensor. Sensor degration and deception. =
The first is rather simple. Basically there is only to send out enough =
noice to blanket out the screen of the opponent. The draw back with this =
is that the enemy knows that he's being jammed and can change frequencies=
 or elect to home in on the noise. Deception jamming is far more =
difficult. It requires the jamming unit to know what kind of a sensor the=
 opponent is using , frequencies, procedures and so on. The main goal =
with deception jamming is to make the opponent believe that the enemy =
comes from another direction. Or diverts interceptor, missiles or laser =
fire against fictive target.
A unit that is targeted by a director beam can feed the beem false =
information making the targetting sensor believing that the target is =
following a certain course.=20

PROCEDURE
Use the rules mentioned above for noise jamming. For deception jamming =
the jamming player states which unit will do the jamming. If the unit has=
 several jammers each jammer may jam a seperate target. The jamming =
player then states which target he wish to jam and what kind of effect he=
 wants to have. And where he wants the false echos to appear on the map. =
However this should be within the same hex arc as the jamming unit of the=
 target.

The Jamming player then rolls a difficult opposed task according to the =
respective Traveller rules. A success allows the player to place 4 false =
targets on the map. To keep up with the jamming for the next turn a new =
task must be rolled. This time the difficulty is routine/average. On a =
failure 2 false targets are removed from play. On a spectacular failure =
all false targets by that unit is removed. The clue is that the opposing =
player must not know what is the real targets or false targets.=20

=46alse targets may be moved on the board for each movement phase. There =
are no limits to how they move or maneuver, but if the movements are too =
obvious (ie accelerating incredebly fast or turns on a dime) the opponent=
 may guess that the targets are false.
The best way to defend against this type of jamming is to "detect" the =
false tracks with a passive sensor. they will not be tricked by deception=
 jamming, as the false tracks are not visible in the visual spectrum or =
the IR spectrum. However the defending player may only try to detect one =
false target a turn per passive sensor.

MASKING MISSILES
Deception jamming may be used to mask missile attacks. Four false =
missiles may follow a few in to a target to increase their survivability =
when attacking a starship. The target that must defend against these =
missiles before they hit, must prior to firing any anti missiles weapons,=
 state which targets he fires at.

(C)1997 Roger Myhre=09


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:07:05 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: A BIT more on alien books

>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>

>Quoth Carlos Alos-Ferrer:
>> >Alien Book I: Vargr (snip)
>> style: pretend the articles are written by people of the approprate eras,
>But that limits the use of the supplement in non-Milieu-Zero settings...

        Not necessarily. What is wrong with me handling my 1100-PCs an old
write-up on Geonee biology dating back to year 12? I've got it already
written...

>> >Alien Book II: The Races of Man
>>         Clearly too much. Maybe it would be better to split this one in two
>I think IG would be hard-pressed to sell two hardback volumes about
(Snip)
>biologies!  And 192 pages is a lot, after all....  I think it would work.

        Maybe. And maybe IG should check the TML on it. I would like to
propose a title: "Human Diversity". It's a fictitious title for a fictitious
book I am citing in the article about Geonee biology <g>.

>> About the Syleans, are they a minor race? I thought they were just a
>> nation, with no biological differences!. They are racially vilani with a
>> small Solomani component, right?
>
>Aha!  One of my pet pieces of information.  CT Supplement 5, Lightning
>Class Cruisers, strongly implies the existence of several minor branches
>of humaniti, some of which we've never heard of yet.  (Of course, that may
(snip)
>6326 Azhanti High Lightning (duh), 6327 Sylean High Lightning, 6350 Fiorin
>High Lightning, 6357 Acheron High Lightning, 6366 Ilurian High Lightning,
>and 6372 Luriani High Lightning.
>So, the overzealous mind like mine might conclude, first, that the
>Syuleans are indeed a human minor race (the multi-bureaux area centered on
>Sylea in the Ziru Sirka implies the presence of a much-coveted industrial

        It's a theory, but it seems more probable that the Syleans PRETEND
to be a race. They are the ones who name the ships, right?.

>I have some notes about the Acheron of my own design: they're of Neanderthal
>heritage (CT Library Data implies not all minor human races are of Homo
>sapiens: some are merely Homo).  They spent centuries living underground

        HEY!. Ooops, sorry, but it does not work. I don't recall the exact
dates, but the Neanderthal were on Earth around -150,000 and -50,000 or
something like that. Definitively, there were NO neanderthals around here on
- -300,000, so there is NO WAY the Ancients could took a bunch of them to the
stars.

>> >Alien Book III: Aslan
>>         Once the period 1100 is included, I must insist the Darrian fit here
>Why?  They're humans, after all.  And the Aslan in the Confederation would
>seem to be moving closer to human norms of behavior rather than vice versa.
>What if I "insisted" that human-culture Aslan be included in the humans
>volume?  It would make about as much sense.

        Yes, right. It's merely aesthetics: IMHO, the Darrian-Aslan is a
nice pair, and, after all, the humans volume seems already full.

>> >Alien Book IV: Wards of the Imperium
>Heck, I'm not writing these things, nor am I employed by IG as staff
(snip)
>whatever we'd like to call it: our imaginary versions of these books
>(which might or might not resemble the final product at all) can contain 

        Well, as long as this TML thread goes on and IG/Marc is reading it,
good ideas could be worth the posting. And you could be writing this things,
after all.. there are several publishers around there. I also have a job
that is not RPG, but I will eventually finish a Geonee sourcebook (even if
it takes me a year more) and I will make sure that the people interested
have access to it, one way or the other. <g>

>> >Alien Book V: Trailing Strangers
>>         Evil thought: create Vargr/K'kree wars to boost interest. Far
>> colonies of those "red vargr" to Trailing...
>I like it!  I've found myself wondering what's up coreward of the rift
>that splits the K'kree from the Vargr, then splits in turn to create a
>sector-size (or more) island up in, ahem, "Kring Noor" sector....

        I think I've already heard something about Vargr/K'kree wars in the
TML. Maybe Mr. K.C. Komosky has something to say?
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:02:08 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
> 
> I have lots of difficulties to understand why orbital stations are
> interesting
(Trimmed)
> 4- Military defenses : Orbital stations have more weak points than ground
> bases. They will do easy targets, they are easy to detect and no very
> bulky. This will cost much more money to have the same defensive
> effectiveness than a ground base. Some big installations would be harder to
> build. May be the observation aspects would be interesting. But small
> drones or satellites could do the job.
(Trimmed again)									        ---Speaking as a Wargamer the advantages
of orbital stations for planetary defence are the following:-1/You have
a lot less chance of collateral damage if your defences are in space and
thus away from the civilian cities on the ground.2/It makes the civvies
who pay the taxes that pay your wages feel safer(Therefore they don`t
grumble too much when you up military spending).3/You do indeed have a
better observation horizon than you would have if you were based on a
planet.4/If the stations crew is raised from the planet "below" they
will fight harder than normal to protect their friends and family on the
planet.5/It lets COACC annoy the Navy by having forces in space(and
inter-service rivalry IS the lifeblood of the military).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:02:16 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

Lee Shing Ket wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Please kindly surf to and bookmark our Beach Resort Website
> http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/hotel.htm
> 
> A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
> http://www.jaring.my/sabah/turtle.htm
> 
> Looking for an Inbound Tour Operator, Beringgis Marina & Tours !
> http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/tour.htm
> 
> Contact our Airline Company, AirAsia Airline !
> http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/airline.htm
> 
> Require a Personal Accidents Insurance on travelling !
> http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/insure.htm
> 
> What a fascinating local events 1997 !
> http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/events97.htm
> 
> Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further
> information.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Isaac KWONG
> Information Technology Department
> Beringgis Beach Resort
> P.O.Box : 674, 88858 Tanjung Aru, Sabah, Malaysia.
> Website : http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/hotel.htm
> Email : mailto:sabah@geocities.com
> Voice : 6-088-752333
> Fax :   6-088-752999
> Internet Phone, Free Tel : ketlee@pl.jaring.my
> 
> --------------------
> "I almost cried when I saw how beautiful God had made this paradise."
> said by Luciano Pavarotti.
- ---WHY DO I GET THE IMPRESSION WE`VE JUST BEEN SPAMMED????????????

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:33:37 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Alien Books and NEW: Milieu release schedule

Zhodani agents report that Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

- -> - ->         1. VILANI / Geonee  / Newts / Bonus: Answerin
- -> - ->         2. VARGR  / Suerrat / Hhkar / Bonus: Brinn
- -> - ->         3. ASLAN / Ormine / Darrian / Bonus: Zhodia colonies
- -> - ->         4. SOLOMANI / Vegans / Geneered races/ Bonus: Sworld Worlders
- -> - ->         5. ZHODANI / Vlazhdumecta / Addaxur / Bonus: Roth Thokken
- -> - ->         6. DROYNE / Chirpers / Jigd-Il-Jagd / Bonus: Primordials
- -> - ->
- -> >my fave order would rather be:
- -> >2/5/3/6/4/1
- ->         I strongly disagree about placing (1) last. About the milieux order,
- -> the Vilani are the key for M:0 as background, and the Geonee and Suerrat are
- -> very important for this Milieu. Anyway, it seems that IG prefers not to
- -> explicitly cover the Vilani at the point.
Well, i don't know about the Vilani Centricism of M:0, cause i havn't 
read it yet. Maybe not last, but not first, either! I just feel that 
sales would be maximised by printing the newer, lesser developed 
stuff first!

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 05:50:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Lee Shing Ket spammed:

> Hi,
> 
> Please kindly surf to and bookmark our Beach Resort Website
> http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/hotel.htm
> 
> A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
> http://www.jaring.my/sabah/turtle.htm

Oooh ooh ooh!!!

 Can I bring the Battledress?? Huh? Can I can I???!!!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 23:42:11 
From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Subject: Re: THUDDD Entries

On  Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com> wrote:
>
> Well, due to some fluke of computers, my eMail program ate the first THUDDD
> post of this spouting something about it being too big.  So I split it into
> two bite sized chunks and maybe it can swallow them now.  Here are the first
> 8 entries (and here James Dempsey thought he was the only one.)
>

  Damn, and I thought I had the competition sewn up! Oh well, I suppose I 
will have to play fair after all. :-)

Bye,
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:59:04 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins

Zhodani agents report that Andrew Boulton wrote:

- -> In-Reply-To: <970305205600_686113441@emout03.mail.aol.com>
- -> 
- -> << >Favorite Traveller Adventure/Product (CT)
- -> >Loonies: "Chainsaw Combat In Traveller" (Space Gamer article)
- -> 
- -> I will find this and IT will be good >>
- -> 
- -> Heh, heh, heh...I have that issue :-)
Any chance to post the best bits?
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 06:50:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: A BIT more on alien books

Quoth Carlos Alos-Ferrer:
> >But that limits the use of the supplement in non-Milieu-Zero settings...
> Not necessarily. What is wrong with me handling my 1100-PCs an old 
> write-up on Geonee biology dating back to year 12? I've got it already
> written...

Nothing's wrong with _biology_ -- that won't change within historical
time.  But I suspect your players would gripe strongly if you tried to
hand them a millenium-old text on Geonee culture, society, government, and
history.  That's the part that gets out of date, and which an "early"
author deprives us of for "later" eras.

> It's a theory, but it seems more probable that the Syleans PRETEND
> to be a race. They are the ones who name the ships, right?.

Possibly.  But I think having them be a minor race is more interesting. :-)

I've now been thoroughly informed that the Acheron couldn't be of Neanderthal
descent.  I'll go flake some flint in penance.  And research Homo erectus
while I'm at it.

>         Yes, right. It's merely aesthetics: IMHO, the Darrian-Aslan is a
> nice pair, and, after all, the humans volume seems already full.

But Darrians are a natural to include there, since they're a "classic" and
already have published info (re: cheap reprint opportunity).

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:07:05 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!

Zhodani agents report that Christopher E. Webb wrote:

- -> jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block) wrote:
- -> 
- -> >Well, there's always Grievous Bodily Harm, Cruelty to Animals, Things Not
- -> >Working Properly Even After You've Given Them a Really Good Thumping (But
- -> >Secretly No Alcolhol Lager) and Really Cool People.
- -> Ah, yes.  _Good Omens_.  That book had me chortling and laughing for days.  I
- -> managed to get one of the authors (Neil Gaiman) to autograph my copy.
You lucky b*stard!
I love that book, read it more often than the LotR by now!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:11:12 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

Neil Simpson wrote:

>Speaking as a Wargamer the advantages of orbital stations 
>for planetary defence are the following:

>1/You have a lot less chance of collateral damage if your defences are 
>in space and thus away from the civilian cities on the ground.

You can either build a military base away from civilian area

>2/It makes the civvies who pay the taxes that pay your wages feel safer
>(Therefore they don`t grumble too much when you up military spending).

They would feel as safe as if the base were away from their area. And they
would pay much less for the building of such groud bases

>3/You do indeed have a better observation horizon than you would 
>have if you were based on a planet.

Drones can do job cheaper. Imagine 10 or 20 drones driven by Maser or Laser
commo. Doesn't seems to bad. Those drones could be dispached around the
planet and even far away from orbits.

>4/If the stations crew is raised from the planet "below" they will fight 
>harder than normal to protect their friends and family on the planet.

Same remark for ground bases

>5/It lets COACC annoy the Navy by having forces in space(and 
>inter-service rivalry IS the lifeblood of the military).

I don't understand what you mean. What's COACC?


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:29:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Neil Simpson wrote:

> Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> > 
> >         I would not put it past players to try and do _*ANYTHING*_,
> > especially if it involves large-caliber weapons and high explosives.  In
> > fact the more destruction that is likely to result, the more probable they
> > are to try it.
> > 
> >         Especially mine.
> > 
> >         <sigh...>
> You have that "problem" as well?I thought it was just an Ulster
> foible.:)
> 
You know, I finally found a solution to this problem, let them do it.  I
no longer ask things like "are you *sure* you want to fire your auto GL at
*full auto*?

I just let them, and chuckle at the results.

Lost a whole campaign in this fashion (it was getting too silly anyway).

Of course, you need to have spare characters available ahead of time, to
prevent play from slowing down.

Pete

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1065
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 12 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1066



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)
Re: Summary Re: Alien Books (long)
Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
RE: Orbital Stations Question
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Syleans are a minor race
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Plagues
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 06:25:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

> I have lots of difficulties to understand why orbital stations are
> interesting 
> 
> 1- Travelling : As the contragrav lifters technology exists, and require
> only MW, it is easy for starships to land on planets. The fuel enxpenditure
> can be very small.

	Nasty surface weather conditions, Type A hyd planets, Balkanized
planets at war with each other, nasty D and E type governments who want to
prevent all contact by traders with the general populace. How about a
planetary population that decided to put all the dirty polluting industry
in orbit, so they could enjoy thir planet? How about a really nasty,
uninhabitable planet with, saaaay, a giant motherlode of high grade 
lanthanum ore

 
> 2- Trading : As for travelling, orbital bases don't reduces costs, instead
> they add some handling of cargos.

	True, to a point. All you really have to do is drop it, so to
speak....you ARE sitting on top of a gravity well.

> 
> 3- Observation : this is the only point i see, because the atmosphere of
> the planet doesn't interfere (or less) with the detections devices, the
> resolution and precision of observation should be better from orbital
> stations than from the ground of planets.

	Here is where you actually break down. Yes, observations from
orbit are much clearer than from surface based observatories, but stations
in the outer portions of the planetary system are even better. An orbital
observatory in Pluto's orbit, for example would be even better.

> 4- Military defenses : Orbital stations have more weak points than ground
> bases. They will do easy targets, they are easy to detect and no very
> bulky. This will cost much more money to have the same defensive
> effectiveness than a ground base. Some big installations would be harder to
> build. May be the observation aspects would be interesting. But small
> drones or satellites could do the job.

	IF you're defending against threats coming from outside. Threats
originating on-planet, however have that gravity well disadvantage, and a
station large enough to have the CCI personell onboard rather than a
comm-link away, will be more efficient.

> 
> 5- Research : Except the observation point, orbital stations won't be very
> usfull. They might be expensive to build and would be quite static. A
> converted spaceship or starship would be more flexible and easier to build.

	Why? Why use a perfectly good starship, and turn it into a
station? All you need is essentially, a hull, a powerplant and life
support. This way you can hang all sorts of things off the hull that you
don't need to worry about acceleration forces, unbalancing the system,
etc. 

> 6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
> space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
> support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
> so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 

	Ahh, now you're thinking in TL-7 terms. This ain't the 20th
century, Bubba, it's the 31st!! Why couldn't you build a 20-30 km long
habitat? All you need is the materials, and any culture that has mastered
spaceflight as well as the third imperium has (I mean, look...a common
mode of transprtation, the air raft, has the capability of reaching
orbit!) easily has the capability to do this. Hell, as Gerry O'Neill
pointed out many years ago, even at TL-7/8 it is not technology so much as
political will preventing us from doing this. 

	Space is _cheap_ in space, especially given that you have
essentially unlimited energy.

	At this point, an orbital facility starts looking less like a
space station than a city in terms of support. Look at any large modern
city...Paris for instance. Does Paris grow all it's food? _Any_ of it's
food?? What about waste disposal?  Transport? How does the food get into
Paris...in trucks.

	 Where does your water come from? Great hulking treatment plants
I'll wager. Finally, at the rate we're going, we ARE going to have to
start importing air to some of our big cities (Chewed on the air in
Athens, or Mexico City lately? Air can be generated...remember we have
lots of cheap energy...get Oxygen out of rocks.

Think BIG!!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:54:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

> >From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: What happened....
> 
> >> Back to Traveller:  How do y'all handle the type D and E governments in your
> >> campaigns?
> >
> >   Other than Pysadie/Aramis, I've never had to deal with governments of
[snip]
> >   detailed by "The Traveller Adventure."  My only quandary came up when
> >   the players had fled the planet (they were being held their after
> >   inadvertently becoming priests of the local religion).  The Pysadians
> >   tried to get them extradited to return to captivity. Normally the
> >   Imperium will send criminals back to a planet to stand trial, and I
> 
> I would say that the Imperium won't handle extradition per se, but that upon joining the 
> Imperium, member states become signatories to mutual and reciprocal extradition treaties 
> with all other member states.  So when your PCs landed on Regina, the Reginan 
[snip]

Which would result in many campaigns becoming "The Fugitive" for minor
infractions such as property damage, possession of illegal firearms (i.e.
automatic weapons) and other such sillinessess.  In the Imperium that we
are using this is conveniently not the case.  The Imperium will only
extradite or prosecute criminals for;

Murder
Uncompensated property damage over Cr 500
Damage to a world's economic capability
Damage to a world's ecological stability
Possession of certain forbidden items (Nukes, Biological weapons, BeeGees
	recordings) which they deem excessively destructive.
Doing anything nasty or forbidden on or in an Imperial Facility
	(Navy/Scout base, Imperial Museum, etc.)
Entering Red Zones

Basically, the idea is to not spend a lot of Imperial time and money
chasing down kids on joyrides.  This will not prevent individual worlds
from entering into individual extradition treaties with other Imperial
member worlds, but that falls under the category of "internal affairs" as
far as the Imperium is concerned.

And who, in their right mind, would enter into an extradition treaty with
a truly fanatic religous dictatorship like Pysadi? 

I mean, really the idea is to prevent "The Fugitive" campaigns when the
boys find it necessary to break one of their number out of jail, right?
and what's a museum display case or two really worth anyway?

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 06:13:34 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

At 01:11 PM 3/12/97 +0100, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
>Neil Simpson wrote:
>
>>Speaking as a Wargamer the advantages of orbital stations 
>>for planetary defence are the following:
>
>>1/You have a lot less chance of collateral damage if your defences are 
>>in space and thus away from the civilian cities on the ground.
>
>You can either build a military base away from civilian area

Yes, and then its either large and immobile (one good nuke...) or mobile
but too small to be effective.  An orbital station can be large, mobile,
well-supplied, and well-defended.  This also means that the orbital station
acts as a forward base, so any attacker will have to attend to it first
(find it, assess it, neutralize it) before going on to the rest of the
planet.  This could cost you the station itself, but its sacrifice could
delay things enough to give you a better sense of the enemy's strength and
tactics, potentially saving you the planet.  

>>3/You do indeed have a better observation horizon than you would 
>>have if you were based on a planet.
>
>Drones can do job cheaper. Imagine 10 or 20 drones driven by Maser or Laser
>commo. Doesn't seems to bad. Those drones could be dispached around the
>planet and even far away from orbits.

Some drone "bases" are going to be useful, no doubt.  But I would not bet
the defense of my planet on these as "hard points" -- an orbital station is
a citadel which the enemy simply cannot ignore if they wish to take the
planet.


One other remark: Not all orbital stations should be in close orbit around
a planet.  Some would no doubt be hidden near gas giants and even in the
cometary shield.  Putting a strong defensive base out there may cost you a
bit of time getting back in-system, but it gives you a _very_ strong base
that is either far forward or behind the enemy, either of which is good for
defending the planet.

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:22:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Kenneth Winland wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Harald Budschedl wrote:
> 
> > Well, in martial arts, there are lots of "breaking techniques", which
> > would a good fighter allow, to hit *through* the armory. That's just a
> > matter of Ki, as a proper m-artist would say.
> 
> 	A lot of "breaking techniques" are for demonstration.  Grappling
> and throwing styles were applied against people who were well armoured in
> the past.  Striking styles had other methods of dealing with armoured
> opponents (weapons, anyone?).

On an Armored opponent I think the best thing would be to keep her or him
off his/her feet (I'm just gonna use 'her' from now on - you know what I
mean).

When I took Jiu-jitsu we incorporated a lot of 'street techniques' (we
were in the south side of Chicago after all) which means when you're
throwing someone you look for a convenient brick wall or steel fence to
use as a "backdrop".  

The technique I imagine using on a BD opponent is
putting my right ankle behind her right ankle (from facing positions) and
pushing upwards on the chin.  At that point something metallic and pointy
would be helpful as an aiming point.

note; no lifting or balancing the opponent on your hip, there's plenty of
techniques that just knock people down that work really well vs. two
legged opponents and don't require you to be able to bench press 200 lbs.

But how many people are really going to go up
against a BD opponent with their hands?


Pete

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:34:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Summary Re: Alien Books (long)

   Hi.

   I previously wrote:

>    I recommend H. erectus as an alternative.  Erectus died out about 100
>   thousand years ago.  There were other human species around at that
>   time too, I think. (H. afarensis? H. heidelbergensis? H. rudolfus?  I
>   can't really recall offhand.)

   I checked up on my faulty memory; one out of three ain't so good. 
   The human species which lived at the same time as Homo erectus were
   H. heidelbergensis, H. ergaster, and, of course, H. sapiens; other as
   yet unknown species are also possible and maybe even probable.  Homo
   rudolfensis, it turns out, died off 1.5 million years ago, and so is
   not fodder for ancient transport. I was /way/ off base about afarensis,
   which was not a human species at all, but an australopithecene. The
   famous "Lucy" skeleton was an A. afarensis; her kind died out over
   three million years ago.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:58:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION

   Hi.

> From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>

> One thing always bothered me about this scenario:
> Why did the Octagon Society build their shelter right on top of an Ancient
> site?  I suppose it could be coincidental, but it seems very unlikely.

   I always wondered about that too. I figure that the guy who founded
   the society (I forget his name), who came back as a "changed man"
   from being stranded on Beck's World, had some sort of "conversion"
   to a devotion to the ancients, and built some of his octogons over
   ancient sites which he somehow knew about from his stay on Beck's
   World.

   I'd be interested in any insights Marc could give.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:01:09 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

Bruce Johnson wrote:

1- Travelling
>	Nasty surface weather conditions, Type A hyd planets, Balkanized
>planets at war with each other, nasty D and E type governments who want to
>prevent all contact by traders with the general populace. How about a
>planetary population that decided to put all the dirty polluting industry
>in orbit, so they could enjoy thir planet? How about a really nasty,
>uninhabitable planet with, saaaay, a giant motherlode of high grade 
>lanthanum ore

I'm not conviced that the surface weather is a problem for travelling,
providing that you have high technology (Imaging EMS, and so on). The
electonically compensated flight control might be very easy in all the
weather types. 
You could have dedicated grounded startports which are un connected to the
balkanized government. And if the balkanized government don't want to have
a ground base, i don't know why they would want an orbital base. And if you
don't care about their opinion, i don't know what you'll do with you
orbital base.
 
2- Trading
>	True, to a point. All you really have to do is drop it, so to
>speak....you ARE sitting on top of a gravity well.

I wouldn't want to have my cargo dropped with parachutes or other antigrav
thing. Even though, you don't need au orbital station to do this dropping.
Usually you have to dock your ship, open the cargo hatch and carry out all
the containers. I don't have seen many rocket assisted droppable contaners
carried by freighter.


3- Observation
>	Here is where you actually break down. Yes, observations from
>orbit are much clearer than from surface based observatories, but stations
>in the outer portions of the planetary system are even better. An orbital
>observatory in Pluto's orbit, for example would be even better.

That's why mutiple dispatched sensor drones can do better job than a single
orbital station. 
And much cheaper

4- Military defenses 
>	IF you're defending against threats coming from outside. Threats
>originating on-planet, however have that gravity well disadvantage, and a
>station large enough to have the CCI personell onboard rather than a
>comm-link away, will be more efficient.

Techically, with the Contragrav techno, the gravity well has no effect on
such vehicles.

5- Research 
>	Why? Why use a perfectly good starship, and turn it into a
>station? All you need is essentially, a hull, a powerplant and life
>support. This way you can hang all sorts of things off the hull that you
>don't need to worry about acceleration forces, unbalancing the system,

Because you could use this starship to make observations anywhere, in the
system and out of the system too.

6- Living
>	Ahh, now you're thinking in TL-7 terms. This ain't the 20th
>century, Bubba, it's the 31st!! Why couldn't you build a 20-30 km long
>habitat? All you need is the materials, and any culture that has mastered
>spaceflight as well as the third imperium has (I mean, look...a common
>mode of transprtation, the air raft, has the capability of reaching
>orbit!) easily has the capability to do this. Hell, as Gerry O'Neill
>pointed out many years ago, even at TL-7/8 it is not technology so much as
>political will preventing us from doing this. 

With contragrav, transportation is not the problem. But grav vehicle are
expensive 5 to 10 time more expensive than a high speed truck. I think that
any civilation would take the simplier (and so cheaper) way live and
produce materials. this is a question of efficiency. People use technology
when they really need it, ie: i wouldn't buy a VCR if i don't want to watch
vidio tapes. And i wouldn't buy one if my girl friend already have one.

>	Space is _cheap_ in space, especially given that you have
>essentially unlimited energy.

I totally disagree with _cheap_. Have you seen the price of the life
support in a startship!!! I don't know why it would be different in orbital
base.

>	At this point, an orbital facility starts looking less like a
>space station than a city in terms of support. Look at any large modern
>city...Paris for instance. Does Paris grow all it's food? _Any_ of it's
>food?? What about waste disposal?  Transport? How does the food get into
>Paris...in trucks.

Sure, you would have some huge open deck, protected by special glasses,
which would cost much more money than ground facilites.
And food is cheaper if you have it near from you (where it is produced). In
Paris food and flats are expensive... I personnaly live in Paris because
i've no choice for the moment.

>	 Where does your water come from? Great hulking treatment plants
>I'll wager. Finally, at the rate we're going, we ARE going to have to
>start importing air to some of our big cities (Chewed on the air in
>Athens, or Mexico City lately? Air can be generated...remember we have
>lots of cheap energy...get Oxygen out of rocks.

>Think BIG!!
I agree with you, but this seems to be not reasonnable. Usually, when
people spend more money, it's because they want to have 
     - more fun or
     - more efficiency
I'm not sure that orbital station is in either of this cases.

But OTOH, if the virtual orbital station people spend tremendous amount of
money to build a orbital sation, _I_ will have more fun. That's why i've
several TL10 100.000Dt orbital satitions in my RCES campaign. The trouble
is that i cannot explain to my players why it's more interesting than
ground bases. The only reason I've seen is _FUN_.

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:09:24 -0600 (CST)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: RE: Orbital Stations Question

On  Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:32:45, Nicolas LeJeune wrote:

I have lots of difficulties to understand why orbital stations are interesting 

1- Travelling : As the contragrav lifters technology exists, and require
only MW, it is easy for starships to land on planets. The fuel enxpenditure
can be very small.

        This is partially true.  The starships that wish to land on a planet
must be streamlined, else they cannot make a stable reentry.  It's one thing
to be able to use contragravity to manage your velocity, but if the ship
isn't aerodynamic, it's going to tumble (or worse).  For large bulk
freighters and warships, this kind of modification can get expensive, I
believe.  (I'm not much of a shipbuilder myself.)
        Also consider the problems associated with ship repair- it is a lot
easier (and less expensive) to perform large scale repairs/overhaul in
zero-g (course, if you drop your wrench, you can't very well go after it).
There is also less risk to fragile biospheres- consider the possibility of a
40,000 ton ore freighter inbound to your home planet, squawking on the GUARD
channel about a pirate attack.  Their avionics are out, maneuver control
portside is not responding, and their computer is damaged.  Would you feel
better having this ship attempt an orbital insertion or an atmospheric landing?
        Yet another option is security.  On more repressive worlds (for
those of you with long memories, think of a global Soviet Union), forcing
all travel to come through one or more orbital stations provides a choke
point to allow for careful screening/searches/extorting bribes from all
travellers coming and going.  Even on less repressive worlds, station
customs checks are a way of insuring that harmful plant or animal life (we
won't even get into bacteria) don't make it into their planet's environment,
and allows a chance to screen for wanted criminals, enemy agents, etc. 

2- Trading : As for travelling, orbital bases don't reduces costs, instead
they add some handling of cargos.

        What about cargoes that are simply passing through?  It would be
simpler to park them in orbit awaiting transfer than to take up valuable
real estate planetside.  Think of an orbital distribution hub- a company
pays to have cargoes transported to a central system, Regina, for instance,
and from there distributes the cargo to customers in other systems.  Again,
cargoes might also require inspection for harmful organisms, which would be
easier to do in orbit.  
        Also consider manufacturing concerns.  Some goods, like industrial
crystals or even chemical refineries, can be made with much more quality in
zero-g.  It seems that it would be cheaper to do the work in orbit, as
opposed to maintaining null fields planetside.

3- Observation : this is the only point i see, because the atmosphere of
the planet doesn't interfere (or less) with the detections devices, the
resolution and precision of observation should be better from orbital
stations than from the ground of planets.

        Quite right.  Think Hubble.  Sensors can see a lot farther without
atmospheric distortions.

4- Military defenses : Orbital stations have more weak points than ground
bases. They will do easy targets, they are easy to detect and no very
bulky. This will cost much more money to have the same defensive
effectiveness than a ground base. Some big installations would be harder to
build. May be the observation aspects would be interesting. But small
drones or satellites could do the job.

        I have to disagree a bit here.  Orbital bases are not any more
vulnerable than ground bases.  If an enemy fleet has enough firepower to
overcome a number of orbital stations, they have the capability to bombard a
ground installation just as well.  The advantages of orbitals are longer
detection ranges (as you pointed out above), longer effective range with
their weapons (they can reach out farther, and energy weapons don't have to
worry about atmospheric attenuation), and the ability to deny orbital
superiority to an attacking force.  A fleet cannot enter orbit and begin
assault drops with a number of well-armed stations sitting there.  The
stations have to be taken care of first, and that at the very least buys
time for the planet.  And orbital stations aren't necessarily pushovers-
imagine taking a small asteroid, tunnelling out an installation inside, and
setting it in high orbit.  They could have a few hundred feet of nickel-iron
for armor, and enough mass that they couldn't just be "nudged" out of position.

5- Research : Except the observation point, orbital stations won't be very
usfull. They might be expensive to build and would be quite static. A
converted spaceship or starship would be more flexible and easier to build.

        A converted ship would be an interesting idea for cash-strapped
frontier worlds... (Hey, all you incredible gearheads out there- how would
you make this work?  Turn a 10,000 ton broken-down ore hauler into a
serviceable orbital station?)  With respect to the research angle, who knows
what could be discovered up there in orbit?  That's why it's called
research.  New manufacturing processes, new industry, new medical procedures
(would surgery be easier or harder in zero-g?)- the list goes on and on.

6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 

        I see stations more for the sake of commerce/academics/defense
rather than long-term living quarters.  There would be lots of transient
berths for stopovers, but the amount of permanent residents would be small,
and as you said earlier, with contragrav, shuttles could ferry foodstuffs on
a monthly basis.  Entertainment and hobby facilities would probably vary
according to the wealth/tech level of the system- perhaps employees do an
"orbital rotation" for a month or so, getting what amounts to overtime as
incentive for having a little less fun in the off hours.
        I'm sure you've gathered by now that I have a lot of fun using
orbitals in my campaigns.  It makes for a good amount of variety, and offers
challenges to players that they wouldn't have planetside.  (Hint: PGMP-14's
do NOT go well with station corridors.  This campaign will explosively
decompress in five seconds...)

Regards,

Mike Lee
Who got to watch an entire player group get sucked out through a 10cm hole...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:25:21 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
> 
> I wrote:
> 
> >5/It lets COACC annoy the Navy by having forces in space(and
> >inter-service rivalry IS the lifeblood of the military).
> 
> I don't understand what you mean. What's COACC?                                       ---COACC is the Close Orbit and Aerospace Control Command,think of it as the Air Force of a planet.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:35:21 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

...
>What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>destroy Redmond, WA ?
>

Now THIS is neat - relativistic rock discussions with practical applications!

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 10:41:10 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Syleans are a minor race

>>So, the overzealous mind like mine might conclude, first, that the
>>Syuleans are indeed a human minor race (the multi-bureaux area centered on
>>Sylea in the Ziru Sirka implies the presence of a much-coveted industrial

>        It's a theory, but it seems more probable that the Syleans PRETEND
>to be a race. They are the ones who name the ships, right?.

When we were having the Six Flags over Sylea debate several months ago,
Marc Miller chimed in giving his count of thenumber of flags over
Sylea, and he said that Sylea was the home of a human minor race.  He
can correct me if I am wrong.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is yellow, smooth and deadly?
A:Shark infested pudding.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:47:18 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal

>---WHY DO I GET THE IMPRESSION WE`VE JUST BEEN SPAMMED????????????
>

You smell the rich, salty aroma of spiced ham, fried just right...  Slice
it!  Dice it! Put it in your sandwiches!

This has happened before - what's appropriate response?  Mass replies
telling the sender to go away?  

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:42:47 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

Mike Sellers wrote:

>Yes, and then its either large and immobile (one good nuke...) or mobile
>but too small to be effective.  An orbital station can be large, mobile,
>well-supplied, and well-defended.  This also means that the orbital station
>acts as a forward base, so any attacker will have to attend to it first
>(find it, assess it, neutralize it) before going on to the rest of the
>planet.  This could cost you the station itself, but its sacrifice could
>delay things enough to give you a better sense of the enemy's strength and
>tactics, potentially saving you the planet.  

In my point of view, Orbital bases would be easy target. If they can move,
it will be a snail speed or  they were spaceships! ground facilities can
have defensive devices too (dampers, sandcasters and so on).


>Some drone "bases" are going to be useful, no doubt.  But I would not bet
>the defense of my planet on these as "hard points" -- an orbital station is
>a citadel which the enemy simply cannot ignore if they wish to take the
>planet.

You've misunderood my opinion. The drones are sensor drones only. This is
to correct the observation weakness of the ground facility. the defensive
and attecking force would be grounded.

>One other remark: Not all orbital stations should be in close orbit around
>a planet.  Some would no doubt be hidden near gas giants and even in the
>cometary shield.  Putting a strong defensive base out there may cost you a
>bit of time getting back in-system, but it gives you a _very_ strong base
>that is either far forward or behind the enemy, either of which is good for
>defending the planet.

Ah, I agree with you. I haven't thought about it. This is a point of
interest in orbital bases (let's say space stations)
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:01:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

   Hi.

   I can think of only one good reason why orbital stations would be
   /common/. (There are lots of different reasons why they may be here
   or there.)  You need them to get cargoes and passengers off of and
   onto starships that do not have streamlining and cannot land on
   planets. Such starships are fairly common in the Traveller universe,
   due to their relatively low cost.  An orbital port need be little
   more than a waiting area for passengers, with lots of docking
   facilities for whatever kind of vessel that needs to interface with
   the local orbital shuttle buses. It may also include shops, cafes,
   and viewing ports, depending on its elegance. It will probably
   include some fairly sophisticated cargo-handling gear as well, but it
   needs very little in the way of life support. I can't imagine that
   anyone would /live/ in such a place; it would be like living in a bus
   station.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:21:59 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Plagues

 I was wondering, if anyone would have any information on what the possible
effect of virus's/dieases would be on player characters who visit a
new/uncharted planet?
 It seems to me that they would be horribley succeptable, just like the
native americans were to small pox et. all when european visitors
introduced a(relativley) tiny amount of the virus. 
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:28:54 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal

Bill Rutherford wrote:

>This has happened before - what's appropriate response?  Mass replies
>telling the sender to go away?  

I agree to mass replies. I've already reply twice to the guy and CC to the
company adress.
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:30:11 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> I use INT as a PC's raw intellegence, perception and quickwitedness. I use
> EDU as a different mode of intellegence...the PC's scholarly abilities, the
> ability to handle the sort of skills you learn in a school or from a book.
> (I'd be happy to change the name from EDU to REAsoning or SCHolarship.)  I
> add WILL..for willpower, and CHArisma for a PC's social intellegence.

This is exactly how I use EDU.  When the task being attempted is a
"short"
or "quick" task, I base the roll on INT.  When it takes a slow
application
of "books" and formulas or examining things over time, I ask them to use
EDU.  When the task is mostly a personal action, I ask the player to use
SOC.  

For example:
	To notice as they're walking down the street a possible good deal:
		Difficult: INT/Trader
	To evaluate the merchandise to see if it's worth buying:
		Routine: EDU/Trader
	To bargin the seller even further down on the price:
		Opposed: SOC/Trader vs SOC/Broker

Douglas McCorison

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1066
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 12 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1067



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Orbital Stations
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
Re: K'kree and the Virus
Re: Winmails & rocks
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Orbital stations question
Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)
Twilight's Peak [was: Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION]
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Net software woes
Re: Orbital stations question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:57:44 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

At 03:42 PM 3/12/97 +0100, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
>Mike Sellers wrote:
>
>>Yes, and then its either large and immobile (one good nuke...) or mobile
>>but too small to be effective.  An orbital station can be large, mobile,
>>well-supplied, and well-defended.  This also means that the orbital station
>>acts as a forward base, so any attacker will have to attend to it first
>>(find it, assess it, neutralize it) before going on to the rest of the
>>planet.  This could cost you the station itself, but its sacrifice could
>>delay things enough to give you a better sense of the enemy's strength and
>>tactics, potentially saving you the planet.  
>
>In my point of view, Orbital bases would be easy target. If they can move,
>it will be a snail speed or  they were spaceships! ground facilities can
>have defensive devices too (dampers, sandcasters and so on).

You can't mask a city or a large ground installation well enough to deter
attacks, and sandcasters and dampers won't do much against those 0.1c rocks
people keep talking about -- that's why deadfall ordinance is so useful.
OTOH, you could put a very low albedo asteroid in a high eccentric orbit
around a planet, making it _very_ difficult to find.  Planetary space is
*HUGE* when compared to the surface area of a planet.  An invading force
would not know (outside of significant espionage, which has its own
hazards) whether such an orbital base exists, how many of them there are,
what its/their armaments are, etc.  This uncertainty will signficantly slow
an invader, and make him use some of his precious resources trying to find
and defend against such stealthed bases.  This makes life much more
difficult for him than if he can do a quick mapping of a planet and nuke
anything that looks threatening.

>>Some drone "bases" are going to be useful, no doubt.  But I would not bet
>>the defense of my planet on these as "hard points" -- an orbital station is
>>a citadel which the enemy simply cannot ignore if they wish to take the
>>planet.
>
>You've misunderood my opinion. The drones are sensor drones only. This is
>to correct the observation weakness of the ground facility. the defensive
>and attecking force would be grounded.

Right, and once I've detonated a dozen or so high-yield X-ray nukes in your
planet's near space, thus effectively frying your sensor drones, your
ground-based defenses are nearly blind.  The phrase "sitting duck" seems
entirely appropriate.  You need to defend your own high guard position, or
someone will use it against you.  



- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:22:04 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Orbital Stations

I think the biggest reason for Highports, is that many of the large
cargo ships are unstreamlined.  Any unstreamlined ship has to be
catered to in orbit.  Ships have to be unloaded somewhere, so you 
aren't really adding an extra cost for cargo handling.  When you have
grav vehicles which can achieve orbit, they won't really mind going up
to a space station to get a load of cargo.  

Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:22:26 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal

Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
> 
> Bill Rutherford wrote:
> 
> >This has happened before - what's appropriate response?  Mass replies
> >telling the sender to go away?
> 
> I agree to mass replies. I've already reply twice to the guy and CC to the
> company adress.
> -----------
> Nicolas LEJEUNE
>    Engineer, Paris, France
>    Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
>    Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr
I favour mass replies as well,failing thay can`t we block him from
sending to the TML?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:26:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: K'kree and the Virus

Responding to Lewis Roberts:

>But even dumbots are capable of being used by the virus.  Maybe each
>dumbot won't be a independent creature, but they are stilled controlled
>by a master bot which is sentient.  So instead of a dozen different
>janitorial robots chasing you around your house, you have 12 perfectly
>coordinated robots acting with one mind chasing you. Seems a bit nastier.

Good point.

>Another difference between Imperial and K'Kree space, is that the
>Imperials put computers in everything, from elevators to airrafts.  I
>got the feeling that the K'Kree didn't bother automating so much of
>their systems.  Is this right?, if so, it will help your point that the
>effects of the Collapse are less.

It would seem so, yes, but Virus didn't _only_ invade computer systems and
make them attack their owners. Virus launched full arsenals of nuclear
weapons from space to planetary systems. Virus engaged in orbital
bombardments with meson and particle weapons.

Most of the initial strains of Virus were mostly "Suicider" strains that
wanted nothing more than to destroy themselves and in the most
spectacularly violent fashion possible. Usually this entailed crashing the
starship one infested into the nearest large object, usually a world. As we
all know, K'kree ships are notoriously large due to the fact that K'kree
are, by nature, claustrophobic. Imagine the size of K'kree naval vessels!
Now imagine a fleet of those crashing into inhabited worlds. Ouch.

A lack of civil defense also plays against the K'kree. This is a race that
would be completely adverse to traditional "bomb shelters" or bunkers to
hide in during an orbital attack. They couldn't stand the confinement.
Attacks of a nuclear (or perhaps asteroids dropped from orbit) would be
particularly harmful to a race that refuses to sequester itself in
shelters. After the attack was over, the radioactive fallout and nuclear
winter would be devastating as well.

>The virus infected ship won't be able to blow
>itself up, or dive into the planet's surface, just burn out the
>motherboard of the main computer.

Not true. Computers in Traveller, regardless of whether or not they are of
K'kree origin, control ship functions. The K'kree do not employ automation
for everyday tasks like the other races, but for their ships they would be
more likely to employ every facet of automation they could.

Because of the K'kree caste system, there is a shortage of trained
personnel in technical areas. Only _some_ male wellborn and nobles would
have any training whatsoever in the use of ship technology. When perhaps 90
percent of your population is by default, untechnical, doesn't it follow
that systems of major import would be even _more_ automated? Either that,
or K'kree ships are more likely to misjump than those of any of the other
major races.

K.C.'s remark:

>>	However, once the Hivers get their act together, and start
>>chasing out all the Virus-infested, computer-heavy Hiver warships, I
>>think quite a few might migrate towards the 2000 Worlds.

Not unless the K'kree are gone. Don't forget the K'kree-Hiver war that the
Hivers only won due to a famous manipulation of the K'kree. If anything,
the Hivers would settle further to trailing.

>>	Oh, TBW - the comment about the K'kreegoing along with the Virus?
>>I don't think so - the K'kree are some of the biggest bigots in
>>Traveller.They don't take orders from ANYBODY.

Personally, I don't think they'd be given the chance. Virus isn't big on
negotiation.

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:37:52 +0000
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: Winmails & rocks

At 08:34 12/03/97 -0500, you wrote:
>	My mail reader & operating system (Netscape 3.0 under Windows 95) was
>so confused over whether or not it was an attachment that it would not
>let me read the rest of the digest, could not open it, could not save
>it, would not let me delete it & generally gave me grief. :(  If anyone
>is willing could someone please delete those lines & send me Digest
>#1061. I'm pretty sure if I get it myself from the archive it will be in
>the same unreadable form.
>
>What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>destroy Redmond, WA ?
>


OK, hands up, it was me.

I'm really sorry about the mess I caused, and will be happy to send a
sanitised version of TML # 1061 to anyone else that requests it (via
private email, not this list).

Can I throw myself at your mercy, and ask that 0.1c rocks be targetted at
Beringgis Beach Resort, P.O.Box 674, 88858 Tanjung Aru, Sabah, Malaysia,
instead.

Sorry,
Liam

- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:35:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

> I have lots of difficulties to understand why orbital stations are
> interesting 
> 
> 1- Travelling : As the contragrav lifters technology exists, and require
> only MW, it is easy for starships to land on planets. The fuel enxpenditure
> can be very small.

Someone else pointed out that some ships are not capable of landing.  I
will point out that if all traffic to a particular world must pass through
the starport then imports can (in theory) be controlled more closely,
off-planet traffic reduced (what will American airspace be like in even
2100AD? crowded for sure), and hazardous or sensitive cargo can be
processed in relative isolation (from on planet hazards or
vulnerabilities).

> 
> 2- Trading : As for travelling, orbital bases don't reduces costs, instead
> they add some handling of cargos.
> 

What if the cargo is never meant to reach the surface? I think that much
of the cargo for a particular system *must* pass through the starport, but
is in fact destined for planets or asteroids other thanthe mainworld or
places in orbit around the main.

You also are using both sides of an argument here; in the first section
you imply how easy it is to get things up and down, in the second that it
adds significantly to the cost. you can't use both (well you can, but I'm
not gonna let you get away with it without mentioning it!).  

> 3- Observation : this is the only point i see, because the atmosphere of
> the planet doesn't interfere (or less) with the detections devices, the
> resolution and precision of observation should be better from orbital
>stations than from the ground of planets.
> 
> 4- Military defenses : Orbital stations have more weak points than ground
> bases. They will do easy targets, they are easy to detect and no very
> bulky. This will cost much more money to have the same defensive
> effectiveness than a ground base. Some big installations would be harder to
> build. May be the observation aspects would be interesting. But small
> drones or satellites could do the job.

Now you're speaking of military reasons.  The reason for an orbital
starport is economic, not military.  Planets do not expect to be attacked,
kinda like New York City, they do things that are idiotic from a military
point of view (big central power plants for ex.) but quite efficient or
profitable from an economic point of view.  No one expects the power plant
or the city to be attacked.  Most starports are likewise civilian/economic
installations, not military.  Similar military installations may be built
to defend such facilities however.  

> 
> 5- Research : Except the observation point, orbital stations won't be very
> usfull. They might be expensive to build and would be quite static. A
> converted spaceship or starship would be more flexible and easier to build.
> 

Spaceships and starships are less efficient and more expensive to build
than orbital facilities.

> 6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
> space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
> support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
> so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 
> 

Again, you say how easy it is to move materials from planet to surface,
then complain about how expensive it is to import food...take a rhetoric
class. 

Life support is cheap...provided it is done on a large scale.  Closed loop
ecosystems are mature technology at TL10 (I'm estimating here) and are
quite effective at recycling a population's waste and providing normal
foodstuffs (better than that general purpose glop stuff).  This is not
practical for a starship, but as another poster pointed out, space is free
- - its just the container that costs money.

> 
> Does anyone have any opinion on this subject ?
> 
I have opinions on everything, just ask.  They are intended to be
friendly opinions, so please interpret the above appropriately.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:41:33 +0100
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations question

From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>

>I have lots of difficulties to understand why orbital stations are
>interesting 
>
>1- Travelling : As the contragrav lifters technology exists, and require
>only MW, it is easy for starships to land on planets. The fuel enxpenditure
>can be very small.
>2- Trading : As for travelling, orbital bases don't reduces costs, instead
>they add some handling of cargos.

       Starships must be streamlined to be able to go into an atmosphere. If
you were to have got a B or A starport without orbital facilities, most big
cargo freighters would have to use a small fleet of subcraft carried by
themselves, or spend large amounts of time making their subcraft travel from
orbit to surface and back, and again, and again... and that IS costly.
        In my games, atmosphere is the main reason for orbital stations.
        House Rule: As a norm, an A-B starport has orbital facilities if the
world hast atmosphere 2+. If not, then it has only surface facilities.

>3- Observation : this is the only point i see, because the atmosphere of
>the planet doesn't interfere (or less) with the detections devices, the
>resolution and precision of observation should be better from orbital
>stations than from the ground of planets.
        Yes, although this would not justify an orbital station alone,
that's true.

>4- Military defenses : Orbital stations have more weak points than ground
>bases. They will do easy targets, they are easy to detect and no very
>bulky. This will cost much more money to have the same defensive
>effectiveness than a ground base. Some big installations would be harder to
>build. May be the observation aspects would be interesting. But small
>drones or satellites could do the job.
        Think of their value as military *bases* when the defenses are the
starships. If you've got your naval base on the surface, and all your
military ships have to go to the surface to be repaired, etc, it is going to
be very time-consuming (it takes hours to go from orbit to surface), and
time is very valuable from the military viewpoint. Also, imagine your SDB is
damaged and cannot enter the atmosphee, or land... you better have some
orbital facilities, or you lose a couple hundred MCr.
        Not to speak of large military starships that cannot enter the
atmosphere.
        OTOH, orbital stations have an advantage of their own when it takes
to defense: laser batteries must be out of the atmosphere to be effective.
And small drones or satellites are much easier to trick woth EMS packages
than a whole orbital station.

>5- Research : Except the observation point, orbital stations won't be very
>usfull. They might be expensive to build and would be quite static. A
>converted spaceship or starship would be more flexible and easier to build.
        Yes, but if you are a small corporation, maybe you cannot afford to
put your own small research facility out there, but you can *rent* some
space on the local orbital station (this is called increasing returns to
scale in economics: here, you can save the initial fixed costs).

>6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
>space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
>support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
>so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 
        Yes, orbital stations *are* expensive to maintain. In my games, they
are large-scale projects that can only be afforded by governments or large
corporations.

Later, also from Nicolas Lejeune:

>Neil Simpson wrote:
>
>>Speaking as a Wargamer the advantages of orbital stations 
>>for planetary defence are the following:
>
>>1/You have a lot less chance of collateral damage if your defences are 
>>in space and thus away from the civilian cities on the ground.
>
>You can either build a military base away from civilian area

        If you build a ground base for defense against space attacks, you
want to defend key places, like large cities. If you build the base away
from civilian area, once the attacking starships are over the city, and far
away from your horizon line, the base is useless. So it must be near the
area you want to defend, which implies severe collateral damage. From a
stationary orbit, if the bad guys go into the atmosphere, they are easy
objectives for you (unles they are exactly in the line between you and the
surface objective: careful then, if you miss them you might destroy your own
people down there).

>>2/It makes the civvies who pay the taxes that pay your wages feel safer
>>(Therefore they don`t grumble too much when you up military spending).
>
>They would feel as safe as if the base were away from their area. And they
>would pay much less for the building of such groud bases

        There is a psychological effect on having some defenses 'up there'.
It is more impressive: a politician could easily 'sell' the idea.

>>3/You do indeed have a better observation horizon than you would 
>>have if you were based on a planet.
>
>Drones can do job cheaper. Imagine 10 or 20 drones driven by Maser or Laser
>commo. Doesn't seems to bad. Those drones could be dispached around the
>planet and even far away from orbits.

        The same Advanced Active EMS packages that would make the drones
useless would be ineffective against a full station with actual people onboard.
        But that's a good point. Drones are useful, right, but they must
report somewhere, and would need some orders in actual combat. If you give
them orders from an orbital station instead of from surface, you save time
(0.1 seconds can be very important in combat) and reduce the atmosphere
interferences.

>>4/If the stations crew is raised from the planet "below" they will fight 
>>harder than normal to protect their friends and family on the planet.
>
>Same remark for ground bases

        But what about the pride? I am an Orbital Guard, better than all
those groundhogs!

>>5/It lets COACC annoy the Navy by having forces in space(and 
>>inter-service rivalry IS the lifeblood of the military).
>
>I don't understand what you mean. What's COACC?

COACC= Close Orbit and Airspace Control Command, i.e. the Air Force and the
space fighters.

        I see lots of reasons for orbital stations, but agree that their
usefulness cannot be taken as granted. Rather, each system would be
considered individually. You cannot argue about the navy if there is no
naval base, you have no trade reasons if the planet has no atmosphere, you
cannot have large funds with less than 100 million people, and, certainly,
TL plays a role.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:02:50 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)

Carlos wrote:

>>> >Alien Book V: Trailing Strangers
>>>         Evil thought: create Vargr/K'kree wars to boost interest. Far
>>> colonies of those "red vargr" to Trailing...
>>I like it!  I've found myself wondering what's up coreward of the rift
>>that splits the K'kree from the Vargr, then splits in turn to create a
>>sector-size (or more) island up in, ahem, "Kring Noor" sector....
>
>        I think I've already heard something about Vargr/K'kree wars in 
the
>TML. Maybe Mr. K.C. Komosky has something to say?

	Yes, I'll have to plead guilty to making a comment about this.

	Basically, I'm VERY slowly designing a M0 campaign based in the 
Gelath/Gn'hk'r Sector (same sector, different names) designed around some 
Vargr-K'kree conflicts, with some descendants of Vilani refugees from the 
Ziru Sirka thrown in for good measure.

	Personally, I found it inconceivable that the K'kree haven't met the Vargr 
by 1100. As well, I'm convinced that when they did encounter them (a Major 
carniverous race), they would certainly have at least a small war.

	My VERY basic timeline for the area (which I'm flushing out in more 
detail, to be posted later)

- -400	K'kree discover jump 4 (TL 13)
- -250	K'kree finally put J-4 into active use
- -240	K'kree jump across the Lesser Rift and discover a comparitively large 
Vargr state
	(comprising the approx. same area as the 1100 K'kree colonies)
- -240 to present	K'kree quickly conquer the area, but are faced with the 
problem of what to 		do with all these Vargr subjects. The neighboring 
Vargr states don't come
		to their neighbors aid, which confounds the K'kree.

between that time period at the CT era, the K'kree colonies are frequently 
raided by Vargr corsairs. The K'kree realize that their lines of supply are 
just too long to even attempt to finish off the Vargr extents, so content 
themselves with frequent bombing raids on the neighboring Vargr worlds. 
This effectively prevents any organized Vargr interstellar states from f  
orming within 2-3 subsectors of the K'kree colonies, and thus explains the 
apparent 'rift' between the Vargr and K'kree on the maps.

	Well, thats the campaign I'm working on in a nutshell. There's more, but I 
really should be working on my history paper of the National Progressive 
Party of Canda, 1900-1925, which was due yesterday, so I'll leave that for 
another day.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:59:36 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Twilight's Peak [was: Re: OFFICIAL T4 QUESTION]

>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:19:47 -0500 (EST)
>From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>

>> 3.  Twilight's peak....
>One thing always bothered me about this scenario:
>Why did the Octagon Society build their shelter right on top of an
>Ancient site?  I suppose it could be coincidental, but it seems
>very unlikely.

I presumed that they were paid to do so by a group of Droyne acting at the
behest of either Yaskroday or the Renegade Children.  Whichever knew of it
wanted to reactivate the base, but feared automatic scanners.

(I have them still fighting away in pocket universes.  It is not a very
noticeable war, but it does let me explain away any astronomical gaffes.)

By putting a human structure there that would someday radiate energy, they
could someday sneak in and use it.  They might have already, or perhaps
they got plastered before they got to it.  It is even possible that they
are going to get to it "real soon", as soon as political pressures change.

I suspect they figured that no human could ever get past the unobtainium
vault door with the psionic combination. :)

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:07:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Bill Rutherford wrote:

> 
> >---WHY DO I GET THE IMPRESSION WE`VE JUST BEEN SPAMMED????????????
> >
> 
> You smell the rich, salty aroma of spiced ham, fried just right...  Slice
> it!  Dice it! Put it in your sandwiches!
> 
> This has happened before - what's appropriate response?  Mass replies
> telling the sender to go away?  

	well (I can't believe I'm doing this...:-0) We might want to hold
off on the 500 C replies just yet...this could well be a relatively
innocent mistake. After all, from the perspective of someone outside
looking at just the name of this mailing list, this could well be
perfectly appropriate material. Not like the infamous Olga and her
desireable Russian women she was hawking last time the list was spammed.

	The guy COULD have made an innocent blunder thinking, perhaps that
this was a list devoted to saaaay the Conde Nast magazine 'Traveller',
which IS about travel and resorts, etc, and whose members would be
interested in what they had to offer?? 

	I am minded of the Traveller's Aid Society here in Tucson (I don't
know if they're a national organization or not)...they're a charitable
organization for the homeless.

	On the other hand, the guy could be just another $@#!#@ spamming
fool, and deserves every near c rock we can pitch at him.

	Just save a few for Redmond.

	Amend that...save a BUNCH for Redmond.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:26:27 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

At 08:30 AM 3/12/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> I use INT as a PC's raw intellegence, perception and quickwitedness. I use
>> EDU as a different mode of intellegence...the PC's scholarly abilities, the
>> ability to handle the sort of skills you learn in a school or from a book.
>> (I'd be happy to change the name from EDU to REAsoning or SCHolarship.)  I
>> add WILL..for willpower, and CHArisma for a PC's social intellegence.
>
>This is exactly how I use EDU.  When the task being attempted is a
>"short"
>or "quick" task, I base the roll on INT.  When it takes a slow
>application
>of "books" and formulas or examining things over time, I ask them to use
>EDU.  When the task is mostly a personal action, I ask the player to use
>SOC.  
>
>For example:
>	To notice as they're walking down the street a possible good deal:
>		Difficult: INT/Trader
>	To evaluate the merchandise to see if it's worth buying:
>		Routine: EDU/Trader
>	To bargin the seller even further down on the price:
>		Opposed: SOC/Trader vs SOC/Broker

Ok, I agree with this.  But I still have one problem with it.  Suppose this
same character got an advanced degree in computers.  

How would you relate that high EDU to situtation #2?

If you agree that it's a problem, how would you solve it?

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:42:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Net software woes

> 	My mail reader & operating system (Netscape 3.0 under Windows 95) was
> so confused over whether or not it was an attachment that it would not
> let me read the rest of the digest, could not open it, could not save
> it, would not let me delete it & generally gave me grief. :(

This is *always* going to be a problem with apps that attempt to be all
things to everyone.  Both Netscape and MSIE started out as web browsers,
and they were (and are) reasonably good ones.  However, both now purport
to be mail and Usenet clients as well (along with a junk-drawer of other
functions), and both are truly horrible at those jobs.

The Unix culture, in which the Net was born, values small, simple tools
that do one job very well, and also work well with one another, using the
OS as glue.  This is still the best philosophy, IMHO.  Get Eudora or
Pegasus for email, any of a dozen news clients for Usenet, and let
Netscape or MSIE handle web browsing.  You'll be far happier, trust me.

> What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
> destroy Redmond, WA ?

20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:57:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations question

> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:32:45 +0100
> From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
> 
> I have lots of difficulties to understand why orbital stations are
> interesting 
> 
> 1- Travelling : As the contragrav lifters technology exists, and require
> only MW, it is easy for starships to land on planets. The fuel enxpenditure
> can be very small.

Yes, but...

* Travelling up and down through the atmosphere is both time-consuming and
dangerous.  CG won't protect you from turbulent winds, great big birdlike
things, TL-11 Stingers fired by rebels in the outback, airborne plagues...
Any starship captain given the choice (and having no other considerations
than efficiency and safety) would far prefer to stay up in the nice clean
safe vacuum.

* Similarly, ships are dangerous to a planet.  A piloting error (or
terrorist) could send a thousand-dton ship slamming into your capital's
downtown, ruining your whole day.  As a result, a lot of worlds will
discourage, hyper-regulate, or outright ban privately-operated ships from
entering the atmosphere.

> 2- Trading : As for travelling, orbital bases don't reduces costs, instead
> they add some handling of cargos.

But (as I mentioned on IRC last week) any halfway rational planetary
government is going to want to quarantine cargos for at least a few days,
and an orbital port is by far the best place to do that.  Also, an orbital
point makes a lovely 'chokepoint' to make sure that everybody pays all
relevant import/export taxes, port fees, and so forth.

> 3- Observation : this is the only point i see, because the atmosphere of
> the planet doesn't interfere (or less) with the detections devices, the
> resolution and precision of observation should be better from orbital
> stations than from the ground of planets.

Stations intended primarily for this purpose will likely be separate from
the highport(s), in more distant orbits.  There'll be a lot of physical
and electromagnetic dirt around a highport.

> 4- Military defenses : Orbital stations have more weak points than ground
> bases. They will do easy targets, they are easy to detect and no very
> bulky. This will cost much more money to have the same defensive
> effectiveness than a ground base. Some big installations would be harder to
> build. May be the observation aspects would be interesting. But small
> drones or satellites could do the job.

Until meson guns come along, no ground-based weapon can effectively fire
against a space-based threat.  You need an orbital fortress to engage the
enemy up there.  You'd actually have a networked defense in depth, mixing
near-orbit fortresses, scattered smaller weapon and observation platforms,
and mobile SDBs.

> 5- Research : Except the observation point, orbital stations won't be very
> usfull. They might be expensive to build and would be quite static. A
> converted spaceship or starship would be more flexible and easier to build.

What about zero-g research (and manufacturing, for that matter)?  What
about cheap limitless vacuum?

> 6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
> space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
> support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
> so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 

Yes, nobody would live in space *just* to live in space.  People living in
orbital habitats would be station staff, related business personnel, and
their dependents. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1067
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 12 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1068



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FF&S fuel tank statistics
Call from Usenet for Mac software
Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)
Re: Economics
Re: Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)
Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Re: First Survey impressions - request for scanned data [LONG]
Sylean minor race
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1065
Re: Military Careers
Re: [T97#1056] Maximum Damage
Re: Net software woes
Re: Net software woes
Re:Orbital stations quesiton
Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Re: Orbital stations question rantish reply, (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:56:37 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: FF&S fuel tank statistics

Eric Freitas wrote:

> I'm working on a program that aids in the design
> of starships using FF&S as a basis.  I cannot seem
> to find any information on the mass, cost and 
> power requirements to store liquid hydrogen anywhere.

	I ran into the same problem when I was making the
	"Starship-V2" FFS design spreadsheet.

	Internal fuel tanks were explaned in "Brilliant Lances
	Technical Booklet", page 14:

	"Fuel tankage in m3 must be designed during the design
	sequence. There is no cost or mass associated with the
	internal tanks themselves, but the fuel mass does have
	mass as indicated on the table."

	This means that the internal fuel tanks are assumed to
	be sealed-off cavities within the hull, and you only
	have to allocate internal volume for them.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:56:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Call from Usenet for Mac software

Saw this in rec.games.frp.announce today. It will ceratinly be a point of
interest for the True Computer Users...errr...Macophiles in the list ;-)

Bruce
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Subject: [www] Mac RPG utilities
Date: 
             Wed, 12 Mar 97 04:34:40 GMT
 From: 
             "Michael Schumann" <scratch@pangea.ca>
Organization: 
             rec.games.frp.announce is a moderated newsgroup on usenet
news
 Newsgroups: 
             rec.games.frp.announce
 Followup-To: 
             rec.games.frp.misc


Being a Mac user, I've noticed that it's damn hard to find Mac Utilities
for
tabletop RPGs. So I've decided to maintain a list on my web site, but
first
I'll need to compile that list. If you know of any Mac Utilities and thier
URLs, please email them to me.

cheers,
Michael


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael Schumann
scratch@pangea.ca
www.pangea.ca/~moon/msindex.html

- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:43:28 -0600
From: Robert Gatliff <rgatliff@io.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

>From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
>Subject: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)
>
>John P. Raynor wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:
> > > Now, giving the distracting kick to the groin, that's another matter.
> > 
> > Against an opponent in *battle dress*, that probably wouldn't be a
> > very good idea.  Clang!  Ouch!  < image of martial artist hopping in
> > circles on one foot, clutching painfully stubbed toes, as soldier in
> > battle dress just stands there, looking obnoxiously smug >
>
> Well, in martial arts, there are lots of "breaking techniques", which
> would a good fighter allow, to hit *through* the armory. That's just a
> matter of Ki, as a proper m-artist would say.

Ignoring Ki and it's simularity with the 'force', psionics, and motivational
instruction:

  It's one thing to break wooden boards along the grain, or breaking britle
  bricks, it's another thing to punch through armor.  Martial arts "breaking
  techniques" have their limits, and it's based on how well your body parts
  compress -vs- another material fracturing.  The skill in breaking things
  is apply the necessary force with a body part in a sufficiently rigid
  configurion that you don't break any bones.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:14:18 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics

>Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:40:14 -0500 (EST)
>From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>

Well thought out reply!  I am softening my stance on just how much profit
is to be made from a low tech trade.  I still think the gradient is too
shallow between low and high tech, though.  Here follows the grungy details.

>>[Scott Ellsworth (me) said]
>> These "nearly technologically competitive" planets can do quite well, as
>> the goods they produce are likely good enough for many purposes.
[PC assembly example]

>	Assembly of hi-tech goods is only a rather minor export of 
>undeveloped countries in the modern world.  Most of the clothing, shoes, 
>toys, and other such consumer goods that we use every day are produced in 
>very poor and low-tech countries like China, Egypt, and India.

Oh, very true.  I agree with you that this is the kind of goods that a low
tech world will be able to export in quantity.  My argument was that to the
extent that a world's native produced industrial products are good enough,
it can make money in trade with a higher tech planet, but if the produced
goods are not, then you are not going to sell a heck of a lot.

Hand carved wood is hand carved wood at any TL, but the profit margin is
fairly low on handcrafts.  You are better off selling automobiles than
objects d'art, but you can only do that if your industry is somewhat close,
so that you can import the vital parts, and use local manufacture for the
rest.  I expect this is a TL difference of no more than two levels.

Anything that is labor intensive can be done on a low tech planet
profitably for a time; eventually, it is more cost effective for a high
tech planet to make something roboticly than to use low tech labor.

What I was trying, and failing, to say was: after five or six tech levels,
there is very little a low tech labor intensive culture can do that the
high tech one is willing to pay to have shipped.  What happens when the
cloth used for those clothes requires zero G to make and a laser and a
computer to sew?  The high tech folks must decide between finishing the job
where they are and exporting the zero G production facility.  Entire
governments would be beggared by the support structure needed for a zero G
facility to create and sew TL12 cloth.

>> The TL4 culture is a completely different story. I would be surprised if
>> the archetypical family in the TL4 area making $2 a day could afford such a
>> car?
>	
>	No, they can't afford a car, but they can and will spend money on 
>Coke.  A woman I know from Uzbekistan was telling just the other day how 
>they flew a plane-load of coke into her village and people were spending 
>a weeks wages for a six-pack.

I can see this.  A weeks wages for a six pack seems like a perfect example
of how a tramp can make money off a low tech trade.  If the natives make
enough in a week, then that is a tremendous profit for the importer.  If,
on the other hand, they make very little in a week, then the importer might
as well have stayed home selling it over the counter.  From the sound of
things, this one made a profit for the importer, at the cost of sucking a
_lot_ of wealth out of that village.

>> Only if the multiple suppliers brings the price down to where an individual
>> can afford it.
>
>	I think this is where you've made your mistake.  Individuals will 
>not be the principle customers of off-world trade.  Corporations and 
>governments will.

Sorry, I was unclear.  I was commenting on two aspects: market size, and
value of the goods from the low tech planet.  Whether it is a major
corporation or a government that buys the imported goods, they still cannot
afford many of them.  The low tech world might be willing to give lots for
the goods, but if they do not have much to give, there is little incentive
for off world trade with the major players.  Minor players, like a tramp
freighter, would still be interested.  More on this later.

You were quite correct, though, that I was overemphasizing individuals.

[good examples of what government/industry wants]
>Anyone who can scrape the money together will want 
>to invest in these goods.

Agreed, completely.  I think those governments will want the goods so much
that the profit will not be a mere 50% for five tech levels.  It will be
orders of magnitude, and if it is not, then the tramp freighter will likely
stay home.

This would make the import/export trade for a low tech planet pretty
minimal by the high tech standards.

>> There are two cases.  The first case assumes that high tech worlds produce
>> so much stuff that selling all that the low tech worlds want is a no
>> brainer, and the other case assumes that it is hard to make goods, and so
>> if they sell some stuff to a low tech world, then they are not selling to a
>> high tech one.
>
>	I'm not sure I understand your point here.

Because I was terribly unclear.  Apologies - let me try it again.

I see two reasons why merchants sell goods on a low tech world.

1.  The high tech world makes so much that their market is saturated.  The
fluff off the top is enough to satisfy the small industrial demand of the
low tech worlds.  Most sales take place on Sylea and the other high
pop/high tech worlds, and a very small amount is exported.  This small
amount beggars the low tech worlds around it, but the amount they are
paying is still pretty trivial by high tech standards.

In essence, even the poorest person at TL12 probably has enough wealth to
make a significant impact on a TL5 world.

2.  The low tech world produces something close to what the high tech one
does.  In that case, a merchant has to decide whether to sell on Sylea, or
ship it to the nearby low tech world.  Because the lower tech world
produces similar amounts of wealth to the high tech one, they can afford
the products, and bidding will be lively.

Clearly, both of these happen, the question is at what point selling to a
world goes from a sound business decision to a desperation attempt to find
a very small market that someone else has not found.  Or an attempt to
become Lord Kalvan.  My bet is that the changeover happens when the TL
difference is greater than three.

>  Hi-tech worlds will 
>sell their output to whoever can pay the most.  Logically, the people 
>that will pay the most will be those who can put those goods to the best 
>use.

I would argue the point - the people who can pay the most are going to be
those with the money to spend.  Even though a 1000MW generator might
revolutionize the industry of a TL6 world, and thus a whole government
might want to put in a bid, if a Sylean native wants one for his air car
and can pay for it in a month's wages, the low tech guys might be in trouble.

We both agree that the TL6 government would work hard to match that Sylean.
 I believe that means that the pocket change of the Sylean is something
that you need a government for at TL6, while the current rules would
indicate that the difference in GNP between Sylea and a TL6 world with
similar pop is only 50%.

>  For many TL-12 goods, the largest market will be Sylea itself.  
>This does not mean that low-tech worlds will not be a market for these 
>goods, even if only a small market.

Sorry, I was vague.  We agree that there will be a market, I just think it
will be too small to be viable for anyone but a tramp freighter.  I also
think that a decent profit by the tramp freighter will mean they are
interacting with large planetary governments once you get past a few tech
levels difference.

>	The other question I believe you are raising is whether low-tech 
>worlds will have something the Imperial traders want in return for their 
>goods.  Raw materials are an obvious option, but if the world lacks even 
>these, then some trade development may be in order.

I was trying to raise it, but more by extension.  I suspect that much raw
materials transfer takes place because traders want to put something in the
holds after selling off the one fusion plant the planet will be able to
afford this decade.

>[business development example - convince locals to buy a factory, and then
sell them the part, while selling the output to Sylea.]

Very good example - this is what my merchant characters are trying to do.
I think this is exactly the correct model for a planet only 1-3 tech levels
behind.

If the planet is 6-8 tech levels behind, then you essentially have to bring
in the plant yourself.  The locals just cannot afford it.  They can provide
labor, raw materials, and noble titles to the offworlders, and I suspect
this is what many of the merchants on Sylea are very interested in.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:38:58 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, K.C. Komosky wrote:
> 	My VERY basic timeline for the area (which I'm flushing out in more 
> detail, to be posted later)
> 
> -400	K'kree discover jump 4 (TL 13)
> -250	K'kree finally put J-4 into active use
> -240	K'kree jump across the Lesser Rift and discover a comparitively large 
> Vargr state
> 	(comprising the approx. same area as the 1100 K'kree colonies)
> -240 to present.  K'kree quickly conquer the area, but are faced with
> the problem of what to do with all these Vargr subjects. The
> neighboring Vargr states don't come to their neighbors aid, which
> confounds the K'kree.

I suspect "extermination" would adequately sum up the K'kree response to
subjugated Vargr - yes, given modern biochemistry, the carnivorous Vargr
could give up eating natural meat, but I think the K'kree would *never*
try to turn the Vargr into a "subject species" - those big curved teeth
would just be too darn *creepy* at a visceral level.  I envision the
K'kree using nasty tailored viruses - orbital bombardment would leave the
planets uninhabitable, and vast extermination camps would be too time
consuming and labor intensive.

I have this strange image of a group of Vargr guerillas initiating new
members into their organization with a gruesome "feast," with a captured
K'kree officer or administrator as the guest of honor, roasting on a great
big spit (the ultimate loyalty-sealing atrocity).
                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:11:44 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

>What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>destroy Redmond, WA ?

Best be sure and take out the entire left coast, "It's the Only Way to
Be Sure" (tm) !!

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:47:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

Just let me know enough in advance to buy a bunch of useless stinking
desert around Yuma, first!!!

"Oh I've got ocean-front property in Arizonnna": from a really bad
coountry
AND western song of the 80's

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Paul D. Owensby wrote:

> 
> >What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
> >destroy Redmond, WA ?
> 
> Best be sure and take out the entire left coast, "It's the Only Way to
> Be Sure" (tm) !!
> 
> **********************************************************
>   Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
>  CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
> "So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:07:15 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: First Survey impressions - request for scanned data [LONG]

>Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:36:12 -0800
>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>Subject: First Survey impressions - request for scanned data [LONG]

>Does anyone have any of the First Survey data scanned yet?  I am already
>going to have to fix the law level data, and I would rather not have to
>retype it as well.

After you get the data fixed, could you forward it to me. I was going to
start working on the same thing.  Or we could split the work load...?

I would like to see IG's responce to all of the mistakes in this
release, are they going to fix, or is it tough luck.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:08:27 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Sylean minor race

>>> About the Syleans, are they a minor race? I thought they were just a
>>> nation, with no biological differences!. They are racially vilani with a
>>> small Solomani component, right?
>>
>>Aha!  One of my pet pieces of information.  CT Supplement 5, Lightning
>>Class Cruisers, strongly implies the existence of several minor branches
>>of humaniti, some of which we've never heard of yet.  (Of course, that may
>(snip)
>>6326 Azhanti High Lightning (duh), 6327 Sylean High Lightning, 6350 Fiorin
>>High Lightning, 6357 Acheron High Lightning, 6366 Ilurian High Lightning,
>>and 6372 Luriani High Lightning.
>>So, the overzealous mind like mine might conclude, first, that the
>>Syuleans are indeed a human minor race (the multi-bureaux area centered on
>>Sylea in the Ziru Sirka implies the presence of a much-coveted industrial
>
>        It's a theory, but it seems more probable that the Syleans PRETEND
>to be a race. They are the ones who name the ships, right?.

Well, _Milieu 0_ states on p44 about the population diversity of Sylea: "Of
these
[14 billion people], 80% are primarily racial Vilani, 11% are Solomani, 6%
are native
Syleans, and [3% other]." Later, on p89 it goes into the history of Sylea and 
states "By the time the Vilani arrived around Year -8000, the Syleans had
reached
a technological level currently classified as TL2" and further states about the
natives being pushed off onto reservations, etc. So I think the "canon" has 
finally fired: minor race <g>.

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:15:45 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1065

>Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:02:16 +0000
>From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
>Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

[entire long spam message repeated snipped]

>- ---WHY DO I GET THE IMPRESSION WE`VE JUST BEEN SPAMMED????????????

And thank you for spamming us with it a second time....

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:57:47 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Military Careers

On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:06:26 -0800
"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>1> Did the lobotomy hurt much?
No... The drugs really helped.

>2> Who reads the TML to you?
I can still read, unfortunately, due to stuff like this.

>GO ARMY!  5 YEARS IN A ROW OVER THE SQUIDS!!!!!!!!!
When the next war is fought on the grid iron, let me know.=20

>In case you didn't get that, I'll try again and type slower.
You type??!!

>I can't help myself, Infantry to the core..
I am truly sorry.  Army brainwashing seems to have this effect less
intelligent masses;-) (Not the few, the proud, the Marines)


Back to Traveller =96 The military offers lots of good traditions today,
any thoughts on some future traditions? a.k.a. the low berth lottery?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 15:55:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1056] Maximum Damage

Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com> writes...

T::>At 06:23 AM 3/10/97 EST, Anders Backman wrote:
 ::><cut>...
 ::>>If only the first hit in combat is taken on a single stat (typical T4 idiot
 ::>>rule) why not stab oneself with a very small knife before combat to avoid
 ::>>this from happening with a lethal round. What is wrong with this picture?

T::>I can see an entire warrior-ritual growing from this innocent statement:

T::>...As John and Marie, locked and loaded, awaiting the inevitable attack by
 ::>the Vargr pirates, he turned to her, extending his blood blade - "Will you
 ::>shed your blood or shall I?"  As he crossed her palm, drawing the merest
 ::>line of blood, together they recited their warrior's creed (insert something
 ::>appropriate here...)

T::>I would throw a bowl of Cheetos at whoever tried this stunt in one of MY
 ::>games!

 Hey, don't knock it - of such things is the All-Holy Background
 made! :)

 Actually, from what I understand, some warrior rituals among
 the Polynesian islanders developed from beliefs similar to this
 - that warriors who failed to propitiate the gods seemingly
 died more often, and quicker, than those who remembered to
 perform the rituals.  Quite likely, it's all just psychological
 gobbledygook - but it's been suggested that the rituals may
 have a calming or mind-focussing effect, which turns the
 superstition into reality.

 Now, however indirectly, even a nascent Third Imperium is going
 to be carrying around the emotional baggage of an 11,000-year-
 old Vilani empire, plus that of myriad local cultures.  I would
 think that such an Imperium would be wise to not mess (for the
 most part) with a sophont's religious beliefs; and as long as
 the rituals neither put the sophont or his comrades-in-arms at
 risk, nor have clear negative impact on their ability to
 execute their duties, there would be a hands-off policy.

 Remember: An RPG is about "real" people, and real people have
 quirks, eccentricities, emotional baggage, and so on.  A
 universe full of such people is _not_ going to be drily
 rational, or conformant to one particular culture's ideals.
 This makes the SF universe of Traveller _more_ SF and _less_
 Fantasy - a good thing, IMO.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:16:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Net software woes

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Craig Berry wrote:

> > What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
> > destroy Redmond, WA ?
> 
> 20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)

<De-lurk>

Being an inhabitant of neighboring Seattle, I must strenuously object to
the usage of such imprecise weaponry in the demolition of Microsoft.
Perhaps a more "surgical" strike is in order---like cutting off Mr. Gates
head?

<Re-lurk>

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak 
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both" 
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:19:25 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Net software woes

At 10:42 AM 3/12/97 -0800, Craig frothed:

>> What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>> destroy Redmond, WA ?
>
>20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)

Take heart!  According to Shadowrun, by 2050 Redmond will be a polluted,
decaying slum, even by c-punk standards!

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:29:15 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re:Orbital stations quesiton

>1- Travelling : As the contragrav lifters technology exists, and require
>only MW, it is easy for starships to land on planets. The fuel enxpenditure
>can be very small.

But aren't there a huge number of ship classes that don't have contragrav?
I can't see the big Navy ships coming down onto a planet... Since QSDS is
the only system I have (apart from CT), how much space, weight and area
does a contragrav system use?

>2- Trading : As for travelling, orbital bases don't reduces costs, instead
>they add some handling of cargos.

But as a waypoint for all the cargo in an entire system, they can serve as a
orbiting warehouse. A large number of my systems have minor planets, 
gas giant refuelling plants, lunar factories, etc. The upstation makes a 
conveinient refuelling and cargo loading point that lets your crew get a little
R&R without worrying about them wandering off from starcity and getting
in trouble <g>
(And the government down below WILL be happier if my players don't go
wandering off and getting into trouble!<g>)

>6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
>space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
>support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
>so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 

We have vacuum worlds orbiting class M stars with populations in the billions,
I don't think life support is a huge problem in the 3I <g>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:53:03 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

At 01:47 PM 3/12/97 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Just let me know enough in advance to buy a bunch of useless stinking
>desert around Yuma, first!!!
>
>"Oh I've got ocean-front property in Arizonnna": from a really bad
>coountry
>AND western song of the 80's

One word:  "OTISVILLE!!!?"

Oh okay, since you referred to it:

"What kind of music you got here?"
"Why, we have BOTH kinds: Country *and* Western."

ObTrav:  If a TL7 or 8 psycho-tyrannical leader wouldn't blink at nuking a
competing country, would a Colonel Ifaddauq (you figure it out) on a, say,
TL10 Balkanized world that had just been given some TL12 technology blink
at positioning a powerful mass driver pointed downward above a neighboring
country?  Suppose the Colonel's country was landlocked, and the spiffy new
TL13 seismic gear indicated a hitherto-unknown but unstable fault that,
with a little nudging, could make him the proud owner of some new beach
front property...  Sure it's far-fetched, so either a) it's all a ruse to
get the players in trouble (to preciptate a war, embarrass their patron,
whatever), or it's the background that gets them invited to a certain
soccer game as part of their early investigation into the matter... >:->
- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:53:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations question rantish reply, (LONG)

I'm not ranting at Craig here BTW!

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> > 6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
> > space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
> > support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
> > so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 
> 
> Yes, nobody would live in space *just* to live in space.  People living in
> orbital habitats would be station staff, related business personnel, and
> their dependents. 

/RANT ON

Why, oh WHY do people persist in this 'tin can in space' view of orbital
stations, or that no one would want to live in orbit stuff???

Look at Trin...how many billions and billions of people were living
happily in 'orbit' (at least until Virus came along and wasted 'em)

Why NOT huge L5 colonies or ramshackle, sprawling 'anchored' starship
towns, like some of the houseboat neighborhoods/shanty towns we have in
various port cities, or melted planetoid balls, or giant Borg-ish
city/ships, or hell...didn't James Blish send Pittsburg off into space at
one point???(Cities in Flight).

Larry Niven described making a really
really BIG planetoid hull this way: find a big nickel iron meteorite,
drill a hole through the core, fill it with water, weld the ends shut with
your giant, gossamer mylar solar mirror. Start it spinning at a slow rate,
and rotisserie it for a while in the focus of your solar mirror.
Eventually the whole thing is hot enough to melt, and the by now highly
pressurized steam poofs it out into a huge bubble of nickel iron, probably
blowing out one end or something in the process.

Patch the holes and you could conceivably have several cubic miles of
space inside a nice secure hull.

Yes there are numerous holes in both the theory and the hull, but
!#@$!#!@, it Traveller is a game of imagination!!! We can't possibly
imagine what life is going to be like in the year 0 of the Third Imperium,
so why do we persist so in saying what is/isn't possible or desirable,
based on 20th century thinking!

Why are we constricting ourselves to such a cramped view, when looking out
you could see the glorious diversity that makes Travelller so much fun,
just by looking up, and _IMAGINING_!!!

Go read something like _Nova_, or by Samuel R. Delaney, or _Riding the
Torch_ or _Child of Fortune_ by Norman Spinrad to name just a few
examples. They portray a future radically unlike the present, but so
immediately understandable that you think you're there. 

Sometimes, I think, we get so embroiled in tiny little details about such
trivial things that we forget the scope of what we're immersing ourselves
in...10,000 worlds, trillions of people, human, alien, in between, humanly
alien and alienish humans, starship gypsies and worn down dirt farmers...

...Ancient sites, Vilani ruins, continent-sized arcologies, sylvan
paradises, brutal hellholes, floating crystal cities, deep sea domes,
Belter hangouts, disreputable downports, universities 7000 years old, star
empires a man's lifetime old, and yes, dammit, orbital habitats! 

/RANT OFF

Think about it, folks...stop worrying aboout how many rivets you're using,
step back and just daydream about it...

That feeling of wonder feels GOOD don't it ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1068
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 12 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1069



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Vargr-K'kree War
Re: THUDDD Entries
Re: Net software woes
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
Re: Battle Dress
Accrete
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Why people live where they do
Re: Jiu-Jitsu
Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)
Re: Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)
Alien book format (not Hardcover)
Re: 3D clip art for Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:52:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re:Orbital stations quesiton

As I pointed out some time ago...one of the problems with QSDS is that
contragrav IS built into every hull on the table...that's one reason that
QSDS hulls take up more volume, cost more and use a LOT more energy than
SSDS ships. They also include such things as G-comp, etc, buty far and
away the biggest thing as far as cost and energy consumption is the
contra-grav, which according to the rules isn't necessary for ships with
thrusters for maneuver drive.

Maybe it was something I tried to post whilst I was in domain-name-change
limbo.


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Paul D. Owensby wrote:

> 
> >1- Travelling : As the contragrav lifters technology exists, and require
> >only MW, it is easy for starships to land on planets. The fuel enxpenditure
> >can be very small.
> 
> But aren't there a huge number of ship classes that don't have contragrav?
> I can't see the big Navy ships coming down onto a planet... Since QSDS is
> the only system I have (apart from CT), how much space, weight and area
> does a contragrav system use?
> 
> >2- Trading : As for travelling, orbital bases don't reduces costs, instead
> >they add some handling of cargos.
> 
> But as a waypoint for all the cargo in an entire system, they can serve as a
> orbiting warehouse. A large number of my systems have minor planets, 
> gas giant refuelling plants, lunar factories, etc. The upstation makes a 
> conveinient refuelling and cargo loading point that lets your crew get a little
> R&R without worrying about them wandering off from starcity and getting
> in trouble <g>
> (And the government down below WILL be happier if my players don't go
> wandering off and getting into trouble!<g>)
> 
> >6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
> >space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
> >support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
> >so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 
> 
> We have vacuum worlds orbiting class M stars with populations in the billions,
> I don't think life support is a huge problem in the 3I <g>
> 
> **********************************************************
>   Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
>  CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
> "So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:29:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr-K'kree War

Responding to J. Raynor:

>I think the K'kree would *never*
>try to turn the Vargr into a "subject species" - those big curved teeth
>would just be too darn *creepy* at a visceral level.

Not to mention that the Vargr, having descended from genetically engineered
Terran canines, probably cannot properly digest much in the way of
vegetable matter, making the point moot.

In short, they'd starve first!

Let's see. Major race dietary types:

Human: omnivorous
Aslan: carnivorous
Vargr: carnivorous
Droyne: carnivorous(?)
Hivers: omnivorous(?)

The K'kree don't have many friends, do they?

Anyone ever conduct that great William H. Keith campaign in the fourth
issue of the late, great MegaTraveller Journal? Nice little mystery there
about the G'naak.

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:27:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Entries

  It was rather interesting looking at the THUDDD Entries - I did some
preliminary design work myself, but abandoned it when work got too hectic.
A few overall observations follow, with more detailed comments on each
design.

1) All of these designs are compromised to one degree or another compared
to the CT Happy Fun Ball.  Most designers opted for a reduction in jump
capability - you'll notice that there are only two ships with J3 (one M3,
the other M2) - the rest are J2.  Most are M2 as well, thought there are
some J2 M3 designs.  Is this reasonable?  Well, in an environment where J3
is the best technology around (like in Milue 0), J2 is probably good
enough for a "cheap mercenary ship" that is not expected to be a
front-line combat vessal.  It's notable that the J3 design is one of the
most expensive as well.  However, I like the J3 personally - it gives much
greater operational flexibility, plus the capacity to jump in at J2 and
still have fuel to jump away. 

  The other compromise has to do with small craft.  No one has more small
craft than the Happy Fun Ball - most have much less.  At the extreme is
the one design that has no small craft beyond some air rafts.  Frankly,
any strategy that involves insertion of troops using the main ship is a
poor one - the ship is a lot more expensive than the cutters that land the
troops, and the ship can land as a last-ditch effort anyway. 

2) There was wide variation in the way the "cabable of ship to ship
combat" specification was met.  Only one contestant included a detailed
threat analysis - lots of points for that in my book.  I'm not sure I
fully buy the arguement for meson screens - that's TL12, and most places a
mercenary cruiser would be visiting in Milue 0 aren't that high tech - but
it would be nice insurance.

  Most of these ships are better armed than the Happy Fun Ball (which had
four missile and four laser turrets).  I especially like the idea of
having a meson gun - no missiles to run out of, and it gives a nice level
of battlefield support.  Costly, though, and needs a fair amount of crew
at this TL.  For what it's worth, I planned to put a meson gun in my
design, so I do like the idea overall.

3) Overall, I like almost all the entries - great job, everyone!  detailed
comments follow below:



> >New Victoria Condottieri-class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
> >
> >Submitted by:   Idiot/Savant   idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
> >
> >Tons: 800Std(Cyl AF)   Volume: 11200 m3       Cost: 423.6 MCr {*}
> >Crew: 24               High/Mid Pass: 3/45    Low: 4
> >Cargo: 45Std {1}       Controls: CivStd (B)   TL: 12
> >
> >08 Size                              02 Jump Drive (80 Std/Pc Fuel)
> >                                     02 Maneuver (Thruster, 406 Mw)
> >02x MilLsrBat(+4) 1/03-03-02-00      02 Power Plant (750Mw + 200Mw)
> >02x Msl Trt (+4) 04/04              180 Fuel (Scoop 320, Refine 10)
> > w/ 20 Msl                           00 Meson Screen
> >                                     02 Sandcasters (60 Cans)
> >02x SL Grpl (30Std Ship's Boat)      00 Nuclear Damper
> >01x Min Hngr (30Std) {2}            A10 P4 J10 Sensors
> >01x Min Hngr (10Std) {3}             20 Armor, 21 Structure
> >
> >Crew Detail: 3 Command, 2 Sensors, 5 Gunners, 3 Engineer, 2 Steward,
> >             6 Small Craft, 1 Medic, 2 Maneuver.
> > Passengers: 45 Troops, 3 Officers

  This a very nice mid-range design that is perhaps the closest in spirit
to the Happy Fun Ball.  There are two small craft, offensive weaponry is
limited to missiles and lasers, and a nice number of troops are carried.
A well balanced, capable design, with nothing odd or quirky.


> >Long Yard's Heracules Class Mercenary Cruiser(SSDS)
> >
> >Submitted by:   John J. Long   jlong@mail2.wilmington.net
> >
> >Tons: 900Std(SLDm/Dsc) Volume: 12600 m^3      Cost: 712.114 MCr
> >Crew: 19               High/Med Pass: 6/40    Low: 4
> >Cargo: 100 Std         Controls: Mil (Fib)(B) TL: 12
> >
> >
> >08 Size                               2 Jump Drive (90 Std/Pc Fuel)
> > 1x 251Mj HvyLsr (+4) 1/3-2-1-0       3 Maneuver (1G High Eff CG,
> >                                            59.99Mw; 2G T-Plates,
> >                                            450Mw)
> > 1x HvyMsl Turret (+4) 2/4            4 Power Plant (2x1000Mw)
> >    Missiles                        201 Fuel (Refine 2, Scoop 20)
> >                                      3 Meson Screen (10Mw)
> > 2x Min Hngr (50Std)                  2 Sandcasters (32)
> >                                      1 Nuclear Damper
> >                                    A10 P4 J10 Sensors (-3 Masking)
> >                                     30 Armour, 15 Structure
> >
> >Crew Detail: 1 Maintenance, 2 Eng-Power Plant, 3 Eng-Drives,
> >             3 Electronics, 2 Maneuvering, 5 Gunnery-Other, 2 Command,
> >             1 Steward
> >40 Troops-listed as middle passengers for construction purposes.

  A nice design, though rather expensive (and you don't even get J3).  It
would be worth it for the designer to run this trough QSDS - you could
duplicate the ship fairly closely, and probably bring the cost down with
the extra discount.  The extra space is the 900T hull is put to good use
for the two Modular Cutters.  The meson screens and nuclear dampers are a
nice touch, and the other weaponry is standard - missile and laser.
Overall, a nice design, but expensive for what you get.


> >ASASA Huscarle class assault cruiser (QSDS v1.5)
> >
> >Submitted by:   Shane Thomas   s.n.thomas@aelfgyva.demon.co.uk
> >
> >Tons: 1000Std (SLSph)  Volume: 14000 m3       Cost: 465.4 MCr
> >Crew: 25               High/Mid Pass: 0       Low: 0
> >Cargo: 0Std(see notes) Controls: Mil (B)      TL: 12
> >
> >
> > 9 Size                               2 Jump Drive (100 Std/Pc Fuel)
> >                                      2 Maneuver (Gravitic, 504Mw)
> > 2x Lsr Bat (+4) 1/4-4-3-2            2.42 Power Plant
> >                                              (1000Mw+200Mw+10Mw)
> >10x Msl Bar (+0) 5/5                210.3 Fuel (Scoop 400, Refine 10)
> >                                      0 Meson Screen
> > 1x Launch port (50Std craft)         0 Sandcasters
> >10x Launch Port (20Std craft)         0 Nuclear Damper
> > 1x 200Std Hngr (see notes)         A10 P10 J10 Sensors
> >                                     20 Armour     23 Structure
> >
> >Crew Detail: 3 Command, 2 Electronics, 12 Gunnery, 4 Engineering,=20
> >             2 Maneuver, 2 Medical, 150 Troops
> >

  This design is hard to get a handle on, since it seems that many of the
components are not specified above - where are all those troops living, if
they are not listed as crew or as high/mid/low passengers?  The
collapsable tank idea is a nice one for getting extra room for the troops
in jump - good place to play grav ball.  I would have prefered it if the 
cost of the small craft were included, as well as crew for them and so on
- - the cost of this design is low as a result.  Two 50t Modular cutters
would fit the hanger specified.  The lack of dedicated defensive armament 
is a problem, given what others have said about their designs, though the 
Happy Fun Ball had nothing in this line, so we'll let that go.

  I don't have my copy of the rules, but I'm pretty sure this is not a
pooka QSDS design - launch ports are not specified separatly from hull
space.  For 20T small craft hangers, you need 40 tons of space, so 200
tons of hanger gets you 5 hanger doors, not 10 (and no extra 50T door
either).  I'll be happpy to change my views if someone can point me to the
section of the rules that allows this as a QSDS design (I'm sure it's
legal under SSDS).

  Overall: delivers lots of troops, but at a high price and little
protection.

> >"Horus" class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
> >
> >Submitted by:   Craig Berry   cberry@cinenet.net
> >
> >Tons: 1000Std (Ndl SL) Volume: 14000 m3       Cost: 535.5 MCr
> >Crew: 77               Hi/Mid: 0              Low: 0
> >Cargo: 1.8Std          Controls: Fib/Bridge   TL: 12
> >
> > 9 Size                               2 Jump (100 Std/Pc Fuel)
> >                                      2 Man (T-plate, 20000 T/Thr)
> > 2x Lsr Trt(+4) 1/3-2-0-0             2.15 Power Plant (1000 + 75 MW)
> > 1x Meson Gn(+4) 2/3-2-0-0          211.5 Fuel (S 400 R 5)
> >                                      1 Meson Screen (1 MW)
> >                                      4 Sandcasters (120 cans)
> >                                      1 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
> >                                    A10 P4 J10 Sensors
> >                                     10 Armor     18 Structure
> >                                     90 Length (m)
> >
> >Crew 77 (2 elec, 4 engr, 2 mnvr, 7 gun, 5 scrn, 4 craft, 40 troops,=20
> >         11 cmd, 2 medic)
> >
> > 2 minimal hangars for standard 50 Std cutters.
> > 1 vehicle shop
> >1 4-bed sickbay
> >70 small staterooms
> >10 large staterooms
> >10 emergency low berths

  This is a very nice design - very close to what I would have submitted,
thogh I would have tried for J3.  The rational for weaponry and defensive
systems given below is very well done - extra points for including it! 

> >     The emphasis in our Horus design is on survivability.  A Merc Cruiser
> >is not normally deployed into a system unless space superiority has already
> >been established; the class's small size, weak armaments, and operational
> >profile make any other use very risky.  The major threats to an MC are:
> >     * Lurking System Defense Boats (SDBs),
> >     * Deep-meson sites on the highest tech worlds, and
> >     * Small-unit fire during opposed landings.

  Overall, nicely done.  The price is low since the small craft are not
included in the price - add another 56MCr to make things fair.

> >Gladius-class Light Paramilitary Transport
> >
> >Submitted By:   scharlto@avalon.com
> >
> >Tons: 600Std SL Slab   Volume:8400 m3         Cost: 423.66375 MCr
> >Crew: 25 (74)          High/Mid Psg: 0        Low: 5
> >Cargo: 10Std              Controls: Fib/B        TL: 12
> >
> > 8 Size                              2 Jump (140 Std 2pc)
> >                                     2 Maneuver (Thrusters, 308MW)
> > 2x Lsr Bat(+4)1/4-4-3-2             3 Power (5x 200MW)
> > 4x Msl Barb(+4) 20/16             151 Fuel (Scoop, Refine 10)
> >  w/20 missiles (per user)           0 Meson Screen
> >                                     3 Sandcasters (30 each)
> >                                     2 Nuclear Damper (15 MW Each)
> >                                   A10 P4 J10 Sensors TL12
> >                                    10 Armor     15 Structure
> >
> >Crew Details: 3 Engineering, 2 Electronic, 2 Maneuver, 6 Gunnery,=20
> >              5 Screens, 1 Small Craft Crew, 40 troops, 10 Command
> >             (3 without troops), 4 Stewards (2 without troops),=20
> >              1 Medical.

  This minimal design is not much cheaper than its larger competitors, and
it gives away a lot of performance.  With a single ship's boat, there is
no redundancy in troop transport, aside from bringing the ship itself in.
This design might appeal to those who are cash strapped, but although it
mounts a nice mix of weaponry and defensive systems, I think it's marginal
for the intended mission.


> >Auroro Aglo (Dawn Eagle) class Support Cruiser (Type SC) (SSDS)
> >
> >Submitted By:   Chris Cox   chriscox@ix.netcom.com
> >
> >Tons: 900Sdt (AF)        Volume: 12,600 m3       Cost: 951.3/885.7MCr*
> >Crew: 50                 Troops: 50              Low: 0
> >Cargo: 101.5/148.6*      Controls: Std (B, CnC)  TL: 12
> >
> > 8 Siz                              2 Jump Drive (90dt/Pc Fuel)
> >                                    3 Maneuver (Thrusters, 675Mw)
> > 1x 1,000Mj Meson Gun(+4)           2.67 Power Plant (1,200Mw)
> >        2/2-1-0-0
> > 3x 251Mj Laser(+4) 1/4-2-0-0     183.2 Fuel (S 73.3, R 50)
> > 1x Missile Barbette(+4) 5/4        3 Meson Screen (10Mw)
> >                                    4 Sandcasters (30 Cans)
> > 2x 4Sdt Spacious Garage            2 Nuclear Damper
> > 3x 4Sdt Minimal Garage           A10 P4 J10 Sensors (EMM)
> >                                   20 Armor     17 Structure
> >
> >Crew Detail: 1xPilot, 1xAstrogator, 7xCommand, 7xEngineer, 1xSteward,
> >             2xMedic, 20xGunners, 3xMaintenance, 8xElectronics,
> >             50xTroops
> >
> >*The second number for cost and cargo is for the ship without the Meson Gun.

  This a warship with some troops on it, not a mercenary cruiser.  High
cost, and troops have to ride down in grave vehicles rather than shuttles.
Interesting example of the high end, but not practical.

> >The Cobra Class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
> >
> >Submitted By:   Colin Hollands   cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com
> >
> >Tons: 1000Std SL Sph     Volume: 949.1 m3	       Cost:608.27 MCr
> >Crew: 33 + 88            High/Mid: 0/0           Low: 0
> >Cargo: 9.1 Std           Controls: Fib/B         TL: 12
> >=20
> > 9 Size                             3 Jump (fuel 1)
> >                                    3 Maneuver (Thrusters, 756Mw)
> > 1x TL8 MslBarb w/ MFC              3 Powerplant (1500Mw)
> > 1x TL12 LsrBat(10)(4)1/7-5-3-2   350 Fuel S400 R30
> >                                    0 Meson Screen
> > 2x TL12 Grav Fighter (AS CSC)      3 Sandcasters (90)
> > 4x TL12 Maverick APC (See Below)   2 Nuclear Damper (40Mw)
> >                                  A10 P4 J10 Sensors
> >                                   20 Armour 23 Structure
> >
> >Crew Detail: 5 Engineering, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 7 Gunners,=20
> >             0 Screens, 2 AuxCraft Crew, 88 Troops, 5 Command,=20
> >             3 Stewards, 1 Medical
> >

  A very capable design in terms of performance (the only J3 M3 ship in
the bunch).  For the cost, however, you get limited weaponry and you have
to deliver troops by G-carrier rather than shuttle.  The two fighters are
a nice touch.  Despite some flaws, one of my favorites.


> >transRift Engineering Corporation
> >Warrior-Class Paramilitary Transport (SSDS)
> >
> >Submitted by:   J_Lambert   J_Lambert@compuserve.com
> >
> >Tons: 600Std (Ndl AF)    Volume: 8400 m3        Cost: 374.5 MCr
> >Crew: 24 + 40Troop+Ownr  Hi/Mid/Bunk: 9/15/41   Low: 0
> >Cargo: 60Std             Controls: TL12 Lo (B)  TL: 12
> >
> >08 Size                            03 Jump Drive (60 Std/Pc Fuel)
> >                                   02 Maneuver (T-Plate,12,000 T/Thr)
> >01x 251MJ HvyLsrBat(+4) 1/4-2-0-0   1.67 Power Plant (2 x 250 MW)
> >01x MslBay(+4) 5/1                180 Fuel (Scoop 180, Refine 8.3)
> >                                   00 Meson Screen (0 MW)
> >02x 10Std Min Hngr                 00 Sandcasters (000 cans)
> >02x 8Std TL9 G-Carrier(unarmed)    00 Nuclear Damper
> >01x 112 m3 Sickbay                A10 P4 J10 (-3 Masking)
> >                                   03 Armor     12 Structure
> >
> >Crew Detail: 3 Command, 1 Pilot, 1 Astrogator, 6 Engineer,=20
> >             3 Maintenance, 4 Sensors, 4 Gunners, 1 Medic, 1 Steward,
> >             40 Troops, plus 1 Owner/Commander


  Not bad for a cheap design, and it has J3.  Underarmed for ship to ship
combat, especially with only 3 armor (though that may be a misprint for
30).  No small craft.  Rather weak overall.


  No clear winner in my book, though it looks to me like the really cheap
designs are not capable.  Overall, I liked the Horus and the Condottieri
best in terms of performance and presentation, and the Cobra gets an
honorary mention for J3 M3 performance.  The Heracules is worth re-doing
as a QSDS design - that would make it cheap enough to be competitive.


_________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:39:40 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Net software woes

Charles Pratt wrote:

>
>On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Craig Berry wrote:
>
>> > What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>> > destroy Redmond, WA ?
>>
>> 20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)
>
><De-lurk>
>
>Being an inhabitant of neighboring Seattle, I must strenuously object to
>the usage of such imprecise weaponry in the demolition of Microsoft.
>Perhaps a more "surgical" strike is in order---like cutting off Mr. Gates
>head?
>
><Re-lurk>

	Well, let's not forget to pound an ash stake through his heart
(hitting such a small target might prove difficult though) and stuffing his
mouth full of garlic, before we either immerse the coffin in running water
or bury it at midnight at a crossroads...  either way, we'd still want to
not just sprinkle but douse the remains with holy water, and stuff a
consecrated Host down the front of his shorts...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:22:44 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Lee Shing Ket spammed:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Please kindly surf to and bookmark our Beach Resort Website
>> http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1528/hotel.htm
>>
>> A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
>> http://www.jaring.my/sabah/turtle.htm
>
>Oooh ooh ooh!!!
>
> Can I bring the Battledress?? Huh? Can I can I???!!!
>


	I say we nuke the site from orbit...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:25:42 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Neil Simpson wrote:
>
>> Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>> >
>> >         I would not put it past players to try and do _*ANYTHING*_,
>> > especially if it involves large-caliber weapons and high explosives.  In
>> > fact the more destruction that is likely to result, the more probable they
>> > are to try it.
>> >
>> >         Especially mine.
>> >
>> >         <sigh...>
>> You have that "problem" as well?I thought it was just an Ulster
>> foible.:)
>>
>You know, I finally found a solution to this problem, let them do it.  I
>no longer ask things like "are you *sure* you want to fire your auto GL at
>*full auto*?
>
>I just let them, and chuckle at the results.
>
>Lost a whole campaign in this fashion (it was getting too silly anyway).
>
>Of course, you need to have spare characters available ahead of time, to
>prevent play from slowing down.

	The problem is is that my players don't just get homicidal, they
get *GENOCIDAL*; frying hordes of defenseless TL-0 aliens with a ship's
laser is just gravy to them.  I shudder what they'd do if someone had
actually like, say, sold them a defective wristwatch or something...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:57:24 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Accrete

Is the latest version of "Accrete" available via an F.T.P. server or
a W.W.W. site?  If so, where?  Thanks, in advance.
                                                         - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:19:57 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>On 03/11/97 at 06:32 PM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott
><rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca> said:
>
>> The basic problem solving process, so far as I conceive of it,
>> involves using intelligence to apply acquired skills and knowledges
>> to the situation.  Two individuals of equal intelligence and equal
>> skill/knowledge on a topic ought to, IMHO, have the same target
>> number, irrespective of numbers of years of schooling...
>
>By Jove, I think he's got it! ;->
>
>I use INT as a PC's raw intellegence, perception and quickwitedness. I use
>EDU as a different mode of intellegence...the PC's scholarly abilities, the
>ability to handle the sort of skills you learn in a school or from a book.
>(I'd be happy to change the name from EDU to REAsoning or SCHolarship.)  I
>add WILL..for willpower, and CHArisma for a PC's social intellegence.
>
>Eris

	Hm.  Still have a problem with it; scholarship, IMHO, consists of
skills; reading, writing, research, use of certain analyses, all of which
a) are learned and not innate and therefore best treated as skills, not
attributes.  Me, I'd use Intelligence, Perception, Wits, and Perseverance
(aka Willpower), and have all the academic skills, both the general
scholarship ones and the specific disciplines, such as physics or
archaeology, as skills...

	"You pick up both pieces of the very heavy-seeming metal and bounce
them around together in your hand.  Suddenly, you notice that they're
rapidly getting hotter.  Make a Wits and Physics roll".

	Heh heh heh >:).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:02:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Why people live where they do

Bruce Johnson's brilliant rant ("Where is the sense of wonder?  Where are
the glittering star-cities") got me thinking about my off-hand statement
that triggered it.  In summary, I asserted that nobody lives in space just
to live in space; people will live in space because they work there.

After much pondering, I'm going to stand by my statements.  On the whole,
with the exception of a few percent of the population, peoples residences
follow their jobs.  Often, a region will have a few base industries (like
aerospace, entertainment, and information processing [banking, software,
investing] in Los Angeles, where I live), plus a huge cluster of support
businesses for the people in those industries (shopping malls, grocery
stores, restaurants, home builders and sellers, movie theaters, and so
forth).  In general, the base industries produce the bulk of exports,
bringing in the bulk of money from outside the area, which then gets sent
out of the area again by the peripheral businesses.

For example, I work in software.  My company sells products to (say) a
trading house on Wall Street, moving money from NY to LA.  The company
pays me with that money.  I spend part of that money on a book, which a
local book retailer has purchased from a publishing house in NY.
Publishing is a base industry in NY.

The 'anchor' industries of a space colony (or an inhospitable planet) are
going to be different from those of an Earthlike world, in general. 
They're not going to be based on (say) agriculture or the like; they'll
also not likely be based on anything you can easily, cleanly do on a
planet (like (say)  software development, or light manufacturing, or
whatever), because the additional costs of maintaining all your workers in
a place where air costs money are going to be an effective tax on your
production.  As a result, space colonies will (in the main) be built
around economic backbones that are best done in space:  heavy (polluting)
manufacturing, solar energy production, zero-gee or vacuum manufacturing,
tourism, or whatever.

This is not to say that such colonies won't be big; a thriving factory
cylinder might have a million or more people, maybe 10% actually in
primary manufacturing jobs, another 90% in the auxilliary businesses,
government, and the like.  But those 10% who are *using* the fact they're
in space are the reason the other 90% are there.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 20:56:29 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Jiu-Jitsu

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> Now, giving the distracting kick to the groin, that's another matter.

to the kicker if the foe is wearing BD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:04:21 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

Harald Budschedl wrote:
> Well, in martial arts, there are lots of "breaking techniques", which
> would a good fighter allow, to hit *through* the armory. That's just a
> matter of Ki, as a proper m-artist would say.
> 
> I myself thought about introducing a martial-Arts skilltable for traveller.

martial arts (read: oriental) are just the same as any other type of unarmed combat
There is no need for tables and charts to check to see if you scream KEEE-YA just right.
I have no training whatsoever in hand to hand but I used to spar with a friend who was 
some colour of belt (2 or 3 up from the start colour, it's been 5 years)
My unorthodox methods were hard for him to counter (read: no plan, just attack). And I 
have flipped several people who had taken martial arts training because they expected 
everything to work just so.
If you want a breakdown of brawling, why not breakdown every other skill.
Just call brawling whatever you want, and budda bing budda boom, you have alternate 
rules.
BTW, the deadliest form of hand to hand would most likely be commando training (various 
countries)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:38:38 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)

K.C. Komosky wrote:
> -400    K'kree discover jump 4 (TL 13)

I like the fact that K'kree are more advanced than humnaiti at this point

> -240 to present K'kree quickly conquer the area, but are faced with the
> problem of what to              do with all these Vargr subjects. The neighboring
> Vargr states don't come
>                 to their neighbors aid, which confounds the K'kree.

Interesting

>         Well, thats the campaign I'm working on in a nutshell. There's more, but I
> really should be working on my history paper of the National Progressive
> Party of Canda, 1900-1925, which was due yesterday, so I'll leave that for
> another day.
Boo, hissssss, hissssss

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 56 20:33:17 -0000
From: Jason Doell <jdoell@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Alien book format (not Hardcover)

I would hope that a hardcover of any of the new books would be dismissed. 
I would like to see, especially in the alien books, a binder format. This 
would allow any new aliens to be under a different heading and with the 
release of any new mileau, more pages could be added to that race. I play 
a game called Advanced Squad Leader and this system has worked miracles 
with the intense rulebook. A binder format has also been adapted to the 
StarFleet battles rulebook and again it worked out very well. A binder 
format would allow items like the CSC to expand with every new mileau and 
all be contained togethor. Other companies could then release small 
expansion modules for different races and planets and have their pages 
incorperated into the general Traveller binder. This would allow the game 
to expand but help people know where everything is. The way it stands 
now, everything will be all over the place. New items introduces will be 
in different rulebooks, ships will be everywhere. What we need is a 
uniform index and a central place to put everything. 
i.e.Chapter 4 Ships
4.1 Aslan ships
    4.1.1 Mileau 0
    4.1.2 Mileau 200
    4.1.7 Border war ships

This would also allow IG to release smaller items without the cost of 
having to bind them. (i.e. reduced cost)
Think about it.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jason Doell - Univ. of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon Canada, 
<jdoell@eagle.wbm.ca>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:15:45 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: 3D clip art for Traveller

Zane,

I've have a ship that I've done using CorelDream.  I not sure if this is a
compatable format with RayDream on the Mac, but if you like I could send it
to you anyway.  I also have a .DXF version of the Beowulf class freetrader
that I did.  I can send that your way also if your interested.  

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/trav.htm)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1069
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1070



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Nobility before the Third Imperium
Re: Plagues
Ah, yes, the dread RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE.
Re: Terraforming
Re: Terraforming
the Octagon Society
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
Re: Orbital Stations Question
Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
Re: THUDDD Entries
Re: Why people live where they do
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Beringgis Beach Resort
Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...
a comfortable return to 0.1c rocks
due diligence
Homo Antiquitus
Re: Terraforming
Re: Homo Antiquitus
Re: resource material
Re: The module writing competition
Costs of thruster plates
Re: Are EDU levels absolute?
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:14:12 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

At 03:35 PM 3/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
>...
>>What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>>destroy Redmond, WA ?
>>
>
>Now THIS is neat - relativistic rock discussions with practical applications!
>
>---------------
>Bill Rutherford
>worj@topgun.cinecom.com
>
>

Really want to bug Billy (Cleon) Gates?  Buy OS/2!

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:27:58 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Nobility before the Third Imperium

"Three groups came to dominate Vilani society:  the shugili [food processors], the 
aristocrats, and the merchants.  A large commoner class existed around them.

"The nobility descended from the ancient village chiefs.  The third child of every noble 
was noble; the others were commoners.  Higher nobles could create new, lower nobles.
"Society intitially allowed nobles multiple marriages...  The restriction of nobility to 
third children remained; it kept the noble ranks limited to a small but elite group."

Vilani & Vargr, at 16.

So before the year zero, there were nobles in known space.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:18:34 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Plagues

At 04:21 PM 3/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
> I was wondering, if anyone would have any information on what the possible
>effect of virus's/dieases would be on player characters who visit a
>new/uncharted planet?
> It seems to me that they would be horribley succeptable, just like the
>native americans were to small pox et. all when european visitors
>introduced a(relativley) tiny amount of the virus. 
>bri <bri@teleport.com>
>

World Tamer's Handbook. Whole section on 'aclimitazation'. Anything from
minor gastrointestinal discomfort to rest in peace.

This is a book that needs to be hauled into the T4 age, espcially in the
expansionist M:0

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:00:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Ah, yes, the dread RAPWWPOOOLT'T'TWLEWTATTE.

ROTFL
SOIP
DSF

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:02:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terraforming

 -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:

>Wouldn't a linear accelerator/mass driver like that in the 2300 Nyotekundu
>sourcebook be more cost-effective, if slower?
>
Cost effective yes, slower, probably not. The maneuver drive on the ice boat
is massive, yes, the ship moves quite fast while not towing anything. Once
you've harpooned (or whatever) the ice you need a powerful drive just to move
the bloody thing.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:05:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terraforming

In a message dated 97-03-10 07:20:35 EST, Shadow writes


>>     What kind of costs?
>
>They be astronomical. Bad pun, but true.

Bad yes. Irresistable, yes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:27:43 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: the Octagon Society

>From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
>
>One thing always bothered me about this scenario [Twilight's Peak]:  
>Why did the Octagon Society build their shelter right on top of an Ancient
>site?  I suppose it could be coincidental, but it seems very unlikely.

The Octagon Society was, I think, much more than is suggested in Twilight's Peak, but 
just what remains obscure.  We know the following:  Doon, who founded the OS, was 
stranded on Beck's World (then called Frisini) for some ten years before rescue.  As a 
result of his ordeal, he commenced practically a religious crusade to build shelters 
throughout the Spinward Marches for stranded spacefarers.  This was in 342.  Over the 
next hundred and some years, octagon shelters were built in virtually every system in 
Regina, Lanth, and Aramis subsectors.  Embezzelement of funds -- the OS was a charitable 
organization, relying on donations to fund its projects -- led to collapse of the OS and 
its dissolution in 499.

Was the OS a cover for people who were searching for Ancient site throughout the Marches 
without Imperial permits?  Did someone find the Ancient site on Fulacin, and decide to 
construct the shelter on top of it to permit exploitation without anyone knowing about 
it? Were they embezzling funds to finance that or other excavations? 

After the conclusion of Twilight's Peak, there is likely to be substantial renewed 
interest in the Octagon Society, as people everywhere start looking for Ancient sites 
under the the octagon shelters.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:55:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

In a message dated 97-03-12 22:27:27 EST, you write:

>	I say we nuke the site from orbit...

Thats crass. Bring the Battledress, I say we invade!
Neveron

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:55:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Orbital Stations Question

>Who got to watch an entire player group get sucked out through a 10cm
hole...
Bet that smarts. Ouch.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:54:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium

In a message dated 97-03-12 12:37:47 EST, you write:

>I mean, really the idea is to prevent "The Fugitive" campaigns when the
>boys find it necessary to break one of their number out of jail, right?
>and what's a museum display case or two really worth anyway?

It wasn't a museum case, it was the entire west wing of the museum. And thank
the powers that be that extradition laws are few and far between or we
couldn't land anywhere by now.

There are, however, bounty hunters....

dsf

Pete-How much do fusion grenades cost?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:56:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Entries

> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:27:58 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>

First, thanks for the kind words on my Horus design...and I agree, adding
MCr 56 is a reasonable way to factor in two 50-ton cutters, not included
in my base design cost.

However, the actual reason I'm writing is this bit, about one of the other
entries: 

>   This a warship with some troops on it, not a mercenary cruiser.  High
> cost, and troops have to ride down in grave vehicles rather than shuttles.
> Interesting example of the high end, but not practical.

That middle sentence contains my nominee for "most accurate typo on the
TML, 1997." :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 23:38:26 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Why people live where they do

On 03/12/97 at 05:02 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:

> This is not to say that such colonies won't be big; a thriving factory
> cylinder might have a million or more people, maybe 10% actually in
> primary manufacturing jobs, another 90% in the auxilliary businesses,
> government, and the like.  But those 10% who are *using* the fact they're
> in space are the reason the other 90% are there.

Up to a point, I agree.  However, there will be systems where the most
hosptible location for people to live will be in orbit. Besides, once a
generation or two have been born, grown old and died in orbit you may have
a breed of man that *prefers* living in orbital Tubes...let's call them
Tubers. <g>
 
Yes, things will be different for the Tubers.  Air won't be free, it'll
have to be produced, but the energy to do it is almost free.  If there are
astriod belts, resources will be plentiful. They will be able to make sure
the environment is santitized, clean and controlled.  Why would these
Tubers *want* to get down onto the dirty, unclean muck of a planet.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 22:34:07 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

On 03/12/97 at 08:30 AM,  Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com> said:

> For example:
> 	To notice as they're walking down the street a possible good deal:
> 		Difficult: INT/Trader
> 	To evaluate the merchandise to see if it's worth buying:
> 		Routine: EDU/Trader
> 	To bargin the seller even further down on the price:
> 		Opposed: SOC/Trader vs SOC/Broker

Yes, exactly!  This is the right way to handle tasks.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:35:17 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Beringgis Beach Resort

>From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
>
>Can I throw myself at your mercy, and ask that 0.1c rocks be targetted at
>Beringgis Beach Resort, P.O.Box 674, 88858 Tanjung Aru, Sabah, Malaysia,
>instead.

First we send in the aikido-trained BD marines to give a lecture on netiquette, I think.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 23:49:11 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

On 03/13/97 at 03:14 AM,  Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> said:

> Really want to bug Billy (Cleon) Gates?  Buy OS/2!

...and if you want to use a *really* good operating system USE OS/2!

Ok, I'll hush now. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:49:56 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: a comfortable return to 0.1c rocks

>From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
>Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...
>
>Best be sure and take out the entire left coast, "It's the Only Way to
>Be Sure" (tm) !!

This is a little too close to home.  I don't mind you taking out Silicon Valley and the 
Peninsula (although it'll cut into my bottom line), but I live in Berkeley, so watch 
where you're dropping those things.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:41:48 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: due diligence

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
>
>innocent mistake. After all, from the perspective of someone outside
>looking at just the name of this mailing list, this could well be
>perfectly appropriate material. Not like the infamous Olga and her
>desireable Russian women she was hawking last time the list was spammed.
>
>        The guy COULD have made an innocent blunder thinking, perhaps that
>this was a list devoted to saaaay the Conde Nast magazine 'Traveller',
>which IS about travel and resorts, etc, and whose members would be
>interested in what they had to offer??

It could have been an innocent blunder -- probably was -- but it could have been avoided 
by one minute's due diligence.  If he'd looked at one message to the list, let alone one 
digest, he would've realized that his advertisement was inappropriate.  

Olga was at least arguably related to science fiction.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:58:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Homo Antiquitus

Robert Flammang writes:
>>From: Joseph Chepe Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
> 
>>I have some notes about the Acheron of my own design: they're of Neanderthal
>>heritage (CT Library Data implies not all minor human races are of Homo
>>sapiens: some are merely Homo).  They spent centuries living underground
> 
>    (1) Neadertals were (probably) H. sapiens.  This has recently come
>    into doubt in some circles though.
> 
>    (2) Neanderthals lived 30-100 thousand years ago, long after the
>    ancients had come and gone. This is much more certain.
> 
>    I recommend H. erectus as an alternative.  Erectus died out about 100
>    thousand years ago.  There were other human species around at that
>    time too, I think. (H. afarensis? H. heidelbergensis? H. rudolfus?  I
>    can't really recall offhand.)

In the Traveller universe the individuals that the Ancients took from Earth
300,000 years ago (which I have dubbed Homo Antiquitus - Ancient Man) were 
Homo Sapiens, regardless of what science may conclude about things in the 
Real World (tm). This is evident from the fact that Solomani, Vilani, 
Zhodani, Darrians and numerous other human races are interfertile 300,000
years later (Though that dosen't necesarily mean that _all_ minor human 
races are interfertile). If a Solomani is interfertile with 300,000 year
divergent descendants of Homo Antiquitus like the Darrians and the Vilani
then surely he would be interfertile with Homo Antiquitus too.

And this apply even if someone proves conclusively that in reality our
great^10,000-grandfather wasn't Homo Sap. In the Traveller universe he was.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 23:57:10 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Terraforming

On 03/12/97 at 11:05 PM,  Neveron@aol.com said:


> >>     What kind of costs?

> >They be astronomical. Bad pun, but true.

> Bad yes. Irresistable, yes.

Hee! Hee!

Seriously though, I don't think the costs would be all that bad for a
culture that already *lived* in space.  That sort of culture would be used
to processing iceballs, asteroids, even small moons.  They might not be too
interested in terraforming a world when it's so much easier to live in
space.  

If some flatlanders wanted to *hire* the job done, that might be a
different story.  Move some rocks around, erect a few sun-screens or
mirrors, drop some taylored microbes and sell plots to dumb flatlanders
that want to buy a piece of dirt. ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:36:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Homo Antiquitus

 
> In the Traveller universe the individuals that the Ancients took from Earth
> 300,000 years ago (which I have dubbed Homo Antiquitus - Ancient Man) were 
> Homo Sapiens, regardless of what science may conclude about things in the 
> Real World (tm). This is evident from the fact that Solomani, Vilani, 
> Zhodani, Darrians and numerous other human races are interfertile 300,000
> years later (Though that dosen't necesarily mean that _all_ minor human 
> races are interfertile). If a Solomani is interfertile with 300,000 year
> divergent descendants of Homo Antiquitus like the Darrians and the Vilani
> then surely he would be interfertile with Homo Antiquitus too.

1. Generic names are capitalized (_Homo_), and specific names are
always lower case (_sapiens_), a minor nit :-)

2. There is no reason why modern _Homo_sapiens_ might not be able to
breed with a _Homo_erectus_ if one came along.  The problem with
species attribution in paleontology is that we can't really use the
"if they can produce fertile offsping they're the same species
test."  In addition, speciation can be allowed on geographic, or
even preferencial basis---a given critter _could_ breed with
another, but never choses to, or can't because they live someplace
that doesn't allow them to meet.
 
> And this apply even if someone proves conclusively that in reality our
> great^10,000-grandfather wasn't Homo Sap. In the Traveller universe he was.

No, it proves that we were interfertile with _H.erectus_.  Actually,
this isn't surprising, really.  If we were able to breed with any
other species, it would be one that follows or preceedes us since at some 
point there was a _H.erectus/H.sapiens(archaic)_ walking around.

Breeding with an australopithicene would be more dicey, but who
knows, look how close we are to _Pan_troglodytes_ (chimpanzee)...

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:10:23 -0600
From: "David Reed" <david@techrefuge.com>
Subject: Re: resource material

I'm disappointed, folks.  Nobody's mentioned DRAKE.

1.  Hammer's Slammers, et al.
2.  Igniting the Reaches (very 2300AD)
3.  Time Safari (out-genre, but good...)
and anything else by Drake alone (the collaborations, well...)
__________________________________________________________________________

David Reed  ***  david@techrefuge.com   ***   May Microsoft be with you...
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:52:42 -0600
From: "David Reed" <david@techrefuge.com>
Subject: Re: The module writing competition

> From: Joseph E. Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> To: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Cc: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: The module writing competition
> Date: Wednesday, March 05, 1997 6:07 PM
> 
> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> > 	Do you know anything about when and how the winners of Imperium
> > Games' recent competition will be announced?
> 
> April Fools' Day, or thereabouts.  I.e., April 1.  Or so says Tim Brown, 
> Judge Extraordinaire. [G]

Is the contest closed already?  Ooops.  Something else I forgot to do... 
;-(
__________________________________________________________________________

David Reed  ***  david@techrefuge.com   ***   May Microsoft be with you...
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:41:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Costs of thruster plates

Well, I finally got down to checking how the latest revision of the QSDS, the
increase of thruster prices by a factor 14, affected the economic realities
of the Traveller universe. I designed two 200 T freighters (cargo space only,
no room for passengers), one with thrusters and one with HEPlaR. It turns
out that the thruster-equipped ship can deliver cargo at the cost of approx.
Cr900 per ton while the HEPlaR-equipped ship, _despite_ the larger power
plant, increased fuel consumption and smaller cargo space, can still deliver
freight for approx. Cr850 per ton.

So while thruster plates certainly give a military advantage it is not
commercially superior to HEPlaR. I haven't designed any larger ships, but I
don't see why the figures should be different for larger ships; the freight
charges will be lower, but they will remain in proportion.

BTW, about fuel prices: I've assumed that both ships have a 3T capacity fuel
purifier plant and buy unrefined fuel rather than pay the exorbitant prices
for refined fuel.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:24:25 -0600
From: "David Reed" <david@techrefuge.com>
Subject: Re: Are EDU levels absolute?

> From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Are EDU levels absolute?
> Date: Friday, March 07, 1997 5:00 PM

> The ease of which one can get EDU = 15 bothers me.  So I'm considering
> adding restrictions on getting new levels.  That brings me to a question:

Join the club.

> Are EDU levels absolute?

Nope.

[snip]
> IF this is true, would that imply that EVERYONE with an EDU of 9 has
> completed their Undergraduate degree?

Faulty assumption.  You left out the hermits, the self-educated, the monks,
the "students of life", etc.  ;-)

> Anybody else like this?
> 
> [PS: if you don't like this 'cause it's not Traveller canon, don't speak
> up.  If I'm the GM, the only canon that matters is my canon.  I'm
> interested in hearing responses based purely on the merits (or lack
> thereof) of this rulechange.]

I don't like it because it seems fairly contrived.  A PC should be able to
start with whatever they roll.  Education is not a measure of school-time,
but a measure of certain problem solving/knowledge application skills. 
Like this:

INT is deductive logic.  Solving the problem at hand...
EDU is inductive logic.  Fitting things into known paradigms...

Each one is about half of the standard IQ or achievement tests (SAT, GRE,
LSAT, GMAT)...


My suggestion is that a PC be given the following options for each YEAR of
college or graduate school:

1.  +1 EDU
2.  +1 INT
3.  1 roll on the college table.
4.  1 choice of his "major" field of study.

With the REQUIREMENT that s/he take at least 2 years of the "major" course.
 That aughta put EDU bonuses back into line...
__________________________________________________________________________

David Reed  ***  david@techrefuge.com   ***   May Microsoft be with you...
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:53:32 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

Nicolas LeJeune (nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr) had some interesting and
well-thought-out questions about the need for orbital starports given that
Traveller has contra-grav, high-acceleration starships, and since a high
port has more expensive life-support, storage, and he claims is harder to
defend.

Interstellar passengers and cargo are not all going to a single
destination, but to hundreds of cities, factories, and locations around the
planet. This means a ground facility will not be more efficient; in fact it
will be less since bulk cargos are more difficult to handle on the ground.
Passengers will still have to arrange transportation to their final
destination, and a ground port has significantly less traffic capacity than
an orbital station because it is on a plane. An orbital station has an
order of magnitude more space for arriving, departing, taxiing, and in
transit ships than a ground port.

The quickest ground transport will be sub-orbital flights, which can be
taken directly from an orbital station. From a ground station passengers
and cargo will have to disembark, transfer to a sub-orbital craft, then go
back up again. Very inefficient. The same is true in reverse for boarding;
it will be much faster to take a local shuttle to an orbital station that
to a ground stations and then back into space again. If you're travelling
in space, orbit is a much more convenient meeting point than the ground.

While it is true a high-acceleration contra-grav airframe craft can dock at
a ground station just as easily as an orbital station, what about all the
ships that don't fall into that category? They will be far better served by
an orbital station. Top-end craft are no better served by a ground station,
in fact they may be worse served because of the traffic control problem.
Starships without all that high-performance engineering will be more cost
effective, and will work just as well as the more expensive ships at an
orbital facility. That gives orbital facilites the advantage for commerce.

Why do you think handling bulk cargos is more expensive in orbit? Cargo is
going to have to be handled and distributed to its final destination
whether in orbit or on the ground, but orbit has zero-g and a lot more room
for handling. I would think ground handling would be more expensive. "High
speed trucks" are not going to be able to transport cargo planet-wide from
any starport, ground or orbital.

Why do you think an orbital station would be more expensive? Construction
cost would probably be cheaper, especially if the material is also from
space. And the land cost is considerably less. The examples you give are
ground-to-ground transport; a starport is for interplanetary transport.

Orbital stations are also much more secure. Ground stations are much more
vulnerable to trespassers, stowaways, weather, earthquakes, riots, and
local interference. A ground station can't move if there is a
disadvantageous change in government or travel patterns. An orbital station
can. Ground stations can also be constrained by problems like zoning laws,
urban spread, and geography, which orbital stations do not have. Also, a
large number of ships will just be passing through. If they need to stop
for mail, refined fuel, or repairs this will be a lot of unnecessary
planetary landings and takeoffs.

As for military defense; we both agree that high-performance contra-grav
ships, which the military can certainly afford, can attack a ground base as
easily as an orbital base, so there is no difference there. Why do you
think an orbital station is such an "easy target"? Since the ground station
is going to be much larger and spread out, I would think it is a much
easier target. A ground station is just as vulnerable to bombardment, meson
guns, missiles, and nuclear weapons, but cannot use sandcasters, stealth
design, or EM absorbent coating to protect itself. Another difference is
the collateral damage during an attack. A starport will be a top-priority
target for any invasion. Where would you want the first strike on your
system to be; right by your capitol or out in space? An orbital station
would also be able to respond faster because of its traffic-control
advantage. Active ships can also be put on 'picket duty' in space much
easier than on the ground.

Certainly living expenses will be higher in space than on the ground, but
do you think all starport employees live in the starport? Not likely. And
remember with high-acceleration contra-grav it is no cheaper to commute to
the ground than to space, and will probably take longer. You're not going
to have farms in either orbital or ground starports, unless you are talking
space colonies, and again the construction cost for things of this size
will be much greater on the ground than in space.

In fact, I would ask why would starships even bother to land on the ground?
In my campaign, most ground ports are just a bunch of offices, barracks for
workers, and storage depots. Passengers and cargo arrive at the orbital
port and leave by shuttle directly to the destination factory or city.
There is not a single 'ground port', but hundreds of landing pads all over
the planet.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:14:11 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

Mused wrote:
> 

> 
> martial arts (read: oriental) are just the same as any other type of unarmed combat
> There is no need for tables and charts to check to see if you scream KEEE-YA just right.

There's a little bit more 'bout that. I myself train ninjutsu in an
official bujinkan dojo, and we normally don't do screaming (ki-ai) in
fights.

> I have no training whatsoever in hand to hand but I used to spar with a friend who was
> some colour of belt (2 or 3 up from the start colour, it's been 5 years)
> My unorthodox methods were hard for him to counter (read: no plan, just attack). And I
> have flipped several people who had taken martial arts training because they expected
> everything to work just so.

Depends, if somebody has learned a martial SPORT (with rules and certain
techniques for certain situations) or a real martial art. Latter you
don't find so easy.

> If you want a breakdown of brawling, why not breakdown every other skill.
> Just call brawling whatever you want, and budda bing budda boom, you have alternate
> rules.

It's not that easy. I.e. in Ninjutsu, you normally learn TAIJUTSU
(weaponless fight, with boxing, throwing, strangling, right movement,
distance, timing and many more things in it)
Then you learn how to use weapons, and in fact, if your taijutsu is good
enough, everything can become a weapon.

But how would you express this as skills in traveller terms?

CYA
Buddy

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1070
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1071



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Homo antiquitus
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Sylean Minor Race
Vargr-K'kree War
My sincere apology to all subcribers ( traveller only )
Re: Alien book format (not Hardcover)
CG & Thrusters (was Re: Stations, etc.)
Re: Suerrat
Re: Orbital stations question rantish reply
Gravitic and graviton questions
Re: Syleans are a minor race
Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
Re: THUDD entries
Re: Alien book format (not Hardcover)
Re: THUDDD Entries
Re: Net software woes
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
Re: Orbital stations quesiton

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:19:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus

Merrick Burkhardt writes:
>1. Generic names are capitalized (_Homo_), and specific names are
>always lower case (_sapiens_), a minor nit :-)

OK. Homo antiquitus then.

>2. There is no reason why modern _Homo_sapiens_ might not be able to
>breed with a _Homo_erectus_ if one came along.  The problem with
>species attribution in paleontology is that we can't really use the
>"if they can produce fertile offsping they're the same species test."  

Are you referring to the practical difficulty involved in mating with someome
that has been dust for umpteen millenia, or are you saying that such a test,
even if it was possible, would be invalid? In the second case you'll have
to explain why. In the first, who knows? There may still be some Homo
antiquitus stuck in a stasis filed somewhere... ;-)

>In addition, speciation can be allowed on geographic, or
>even preferencial basis---a given critter _could_ breed with
>another, but never choses to, or can't because they live someplace
>that doesn't allow them to meet.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can even argue about wether or not two
individuals are of the same species without involving the definition of
being of the same species. If we can't use the aforementioned test (at
least theoretically) what's the point of using the word?
 
>>And this apply even if someone proves conclusively that in reality our
>>great^10,000-grandfather wasn't Homo Sap. In the Traveller universe he was.
> 
>No, it proves that we were interfertile with _H.erectus_. 

(And proves it without applying the test, btw.) So dosen't that mean that we
are the same species as _H.antiquitus_ still?

>Actually, this isn't surprising, really.  If we were able to breed with any
>other species, it would be one that follows or preceedes us since at some 
>point there was a _H.erectus/H.sapiens(archaic)_ walking around.

But we wouldn't be able to breed with the species preceding or following us
since the definition of different species is that they can't breed (well,
produce fertile offspring, actually). I must be missing some part of your
argument here.

>Breeding with an australopithicene would be more dicey, but who
>knows, look how close we are to _Pan_troglodytes_ (chimpanzee)...

Close, but not close enough to even produce infertile progeny, much less
fertile.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:36:55 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

Peter  H. Brenton wrote:

>What if the cargo is never meant to reach the surface? I think that much
>of the cargo for a particular system *must* pass through the starport, but
>is in fact destined for planets or asteroids other thanthe mainworld or
>places in orbit around the main.

>You also are using both sides of an argument here; in the first section
>you imply how easy it is to get things up and down, in the second that it
>adds significantly to the cost. you can't use both (well you can, but I'm
>not gonna let you get away with it without mentioning it!).  

I disagree with you. If it's easy, it's not free. Today, you can easily
hire a truck to carry some cargo from town to town, you'll have to get
fuel, to hire a driver... Even if the fuel is quite cheap, the personnel
has to be payed. And even if you use automated vehicles, you have to buy or
hire them.

But i agree that sometime, you have no choice (unslreamlined starship,
living cargo for risk of infection...)


>Again, you say how easy it is to move materials from planet to surface,
>then complain about how expensive it is to import food...take a rhetoric
>class. 

Same remark

>Life support is cheap...provided it is done on a large scale.  Closed loop
>ecosystems are mature technology at TL10 (I'm estimating here) and are
>quite effective at recycling a population's waste and providing normal
>foodstuffs (better than that general purpose glop stuff).  This is not
>practical for a starship, but as another poster pointed out, space is free
>- its just the container that costs money.

Yes, why not? 

Thanks for your point of view

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:58:02 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Sylean Minor Race

A little bird tells me that the Syleans, as a native race, are virtually 
absorbed into the general vilani/solomani genetic pool by Year Zero. By 
c1100 Imperial, they would probably be a memory, except for occasional 
nationalist uprisings in which a bunch of people declare themselves to be 
_pure Sylean blood_ or some such twaddle. 
Now where is that copy of Milieu Zero? 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...

"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:55:11 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Vargr-K'kree War

I have consulted my significant other (professional dietitian with some 
additional knowledge of animal nutrition...household _Shugili_... ;>
Anyway, she reckons that dogs can live on a vegetarian diet, but cats 
can't; ie cats carnivore, dog omnivore. 
So it is _possible_ for Vargr to live as K'kree subjects, but don't expect 
them to enjoy it. Maybe such Vargr would suffer from psychological 
complaints because of their repressed puppy-nature.  

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...

"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:50:30 +0700
From: Lee Shing Ket <ketlee@pl.jaring.my>
Subject: My sincere apology to all subcribers ( traveller only )

Hi,

My ( Newcomer ) sincere apology to all subcribers for my recent posting.
I should not subcribe the list and do posting immediately. Maybe,
lurking is the best alternative to understand the right behaviour of a
subscriber on the list.

I am also sorry for those systems crashed, resulted from my recent
posting.

However, I strongly belief that all Internet Travellers deserve a right
to know this beautiful place - Borneo Paradise.  Where would I post it
on ?

Please reply this message to my personal email account
mailto:ketlee@pl.jaring.my and DO NOT email to sabah@geocities.com ,
Otherwise, my school master and uncle Isaac would be mad about the
message the subscribers has beed posted.

Thank you.

God Bless all of you (subscribers)

Lee Shing Ket <ketlee@pl.jaring.my>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:02:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Alien book format (not Hardcover)

Quoth Jason Doell:
> I would like to see, especially in the alien books, a binder format....

"Traveller Monstrous Compendium"?  Yuck!

> This would also allow IG to release smaller items without the cost of 
> having to bind them. (i.e. reduced cost)

And would hammer them on sales via graphical presentation, which is
necessary except for SPI-trained grognards....  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 02:59:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: CG & Thrusters (was Re: Stations, etc.)

Quoth Bruce Johnson:
> QSDS hulls... also include... contra-grav, which according to the rules
> isn't necessary for ships with thrusters for maneuver drive.

The venerable Cmdr X (Go Navy!) suggested in his IRC class that such
ships (equipped with only thruster plates) have to land tail down in
gravity wells.  (Though this might get us into the far-too-recent
direction-of-thrust argument).  CG also makes skimming for fuel far
easier, I'd think....

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 18:53:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Suerrat

Hi,

someone on the list mentioned the illo in the MT encylopedia on the page 
which has the minor race article mentioning the Suerrat. They thought it 
was an illo of Suerrats - sorry, it's an illo of the various castes of 
K'Kree (from the article on the facing page).

More on the Suerrat. The Megatraveller Journal 3, in it's article on the 
Jonkereen, states that the Jonkereen were geneered to colonize a desert 
world the Suerrat were trying to colonize, about 550. The Suerrat were 
agressively trying to colonize the free world left in the Imperium, and 
the Jonkereen was seen as a way of slaping them down, without provoking a 
military response. One odd thing about this is that Iielish was toasted 
about 400, so the Suerrat being allowed to even attempt more colonization 
is strange - but there may actuall be an answer to this in First Survey 
(I promise I won't start on FS!).

In first survey, worlds with non-villani names do not have a full stop 
after their name. This is true of Iielish, with it's poor tech level for 
a starfaring race, but also true for a lot of worlds around Iielish, some 
of which are TL-11/12. The Suerrat may have colonized their area in the 
distant past (Long Night? Pre 1st Imperium?), and exhausted the 
resources, or will, of Iielish in doing so. The Iiellish Revolt would 
have been organized by Suerrat nationalist on Iiellish, but some of the 
advanced colony worlds may have been neutral, or opposed the revolt. 
While Iielish was nuked at the end of the revolt, there would have been a 
large enough grouping of loyal Suerrat planets to continue Suerrat 
expansion into the Imperium.

Eamon. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:28:14 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations question rantish reply

Bruce Johnson wrote

>Why are we constricting ourselves to such a cramped view, when looking out
>you could see the glorious diversity that makes Travelller so much fun,
>just by looking up, and _IMAGINING_!!!

> etc...

I agree with you about imagining 
BUT I remember an 30's american movie which story was supposed to take
place in 80's. They've stated that every body would have a personnal plane
and would got to work by air. Seem to be wrong. 

Today's The small personnal planes are 50's techno. The prices of such
devices aren't reduced because we are able to build the F117 or the space
shuttle. Such simple planes are expensive, even if it's an old technology.
How many of you have one?

TNE stated that a TL6 car cost around 5000Cr. An enclosed Air Raft for 4
passenger is about 270 000 Cr!!! It's exacly the same problem of plane.
It's not because the technology exists that normal being can buy it (even
on a high TL world). 
My players own 53% of 85MCr starship (they've lot of chance). But they have
no money to buy an air raft. They could only get a crosscountry wheeld
vehicle. Air raft has many advantages, but this is not the reason to offer
it to the players

In the 'Cost of living in T4' article, James Garriss stated that cost of
life was around 2500Cr for normal living. I'm not sure that even a starship
pilot could own a private Air raft. How many people own a 400 000$ car.
Only very rich people could. 

Today's transportation companies don't use plane because it's fun, they use
it because they have no choice. This is an expensive way to carry cargo.
Sea ships and trains are always largely in use because it is cheaper.

Personnally, the realism and rationnalism of situations (technology,
economics, combat system, culture...) is very important for me and my
player. That's why i'm a gearhead and i want to know how a jump drive
works... Traveller is more science than fiction for me. Star Wars is more
fiction than science. That doesn't mean that i dislike it, not at all!

I like the concept of orbital bases, because it's more fun to dock in a
space station than in a middle of a town. Sure! All I need is to for some
argument of viability of orbital stations. Many of you have given some that
I didn't suspected.

That's why the Traveller Mailing List is! No? 
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:39:45 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Gravitic and graviton questions

Hi, I've questions, again ... :-)

I was just wondering if anyone have any information about Gravitics (G
compensators, Contragrav, grav weapons and gravitic focused lasers)
connected to the Graviton 

As Lasers radiates photons, does Gravitics devices radiates gravitons and
how (which way...)?
Could this radiations be dangerous or detectable (by densitometers for
example)


By the way, can an orbital station without ContraGrav easily sustain
position on orbit with only 0.05G of propulsion for corrections?
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:49:48 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Syleans are a minor race

In a message dated 97-03-12 11:54:06 EST, you write:

> and he said that Sylea was the home of a human minor race.  He
>  can correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, the Syleans are a minor race. I wonder how many people on Sylea are true
racial Syleans, how many are Solomani or Vilani or Geonee or Suerrat or mixed
blood.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:49:38 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium

In a message dated 97-03-12 12:37:47 EST, you write:

> 
>  Murder
>  Uncompensated property damage over Cr 500
>  Damage to a world's economic capability
>  Damage to a world's ecological stability
>  Possession of certain forbidden items (Nukes, Biological weapons, BeeGees
>  	recordings) which they deem excessively destructive.
>  Doing anything nasty or forbidden on or in an Imperial Facility
>  	(Navy/Scout base, Imperial Museum, etc.)
>  Entering Red Zones
>  
>  Basically, the idea is to not spend a lot of Imperial time and money
>  chasing down kids on joyrides.  This will not prevent individual worlds
>  from entering into individual extradition treaties with other Imperial
>  member worlds, but that falls under the category of "internal affairs" as
>  far as the Imperium is concerned.
>  
>  And who, in their right mind, would enter into an extradition treaty with
>  a truly fanatic religous dictatorship like Pysadi? 
>  
>  I mean, really the idea is to prevent "The Fugitive" campaigns when the
>  boys find it necessary to break one of their number out of jail, right?
>  and what's a museum display case or two really worth anyway?
>  
>  Pete

The Imperium rules the spaces between the stars. Each world is responsible
for its own laws and enforcement. To a great extent, if someone can get past
the "state line" he or she gets away. The problem is (1) remembering never to
come back to that place again, (2) not ending up there by mistake, or (3) not
getting taken there by someone else (bounty hunters?).

The Imperium gets involved when it gets crossed.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:55:41 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

Zhodani agents report that Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

- -> 	I say we nuke the site from orbit...
Yes, lets!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:56:50 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: THUDD entries

 Firstly, thanks to Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU> for saying nice things
about NVNA's latest offering. I can feel my ego (and their share price)
inflating already :) As for the rest:

"Greek Fire" and "Heracules" [and "Condottieri"]:
	Each of these three designs attempted to duplicate the good old
"Happy Fun ball", albiet with differing hull configurations and weapons
loadouts. All limit their range to an adequete jump-2 in order to squeeze
in those small craft (with redundency), extensive support facilities, and
lots of cargo space. As Mark said, the Heracules really needs a redesign
using QSDS. Otherwise, they're all pretty balanced.

"Warrior" and "Gladius"
	These two went for a minimalist design philosophy, sacrificing
size and redundant landing capability for a decreased cost. IMHO the
Gladius tries to do a little too much on the small hull (though I'm
mystified as to where all the space went). The Warrior, OTOH, does it
right, managing to squeeze in J-3 performance _and_ enough cargo space
(though it seems to be missing power-plant fuel. Whoops!). Despite it's
bugs, and not quite meeting the specification, I rated this design highly
- - it makes a great "pocket merc cruiser" for those who can't or won't go
for the bigger vessels.

"Huscarle"
	An interesting design, but its troop capacity is a little larger
than called for, and is gained at the cost of cargo and vehicle space.
OTOH, it shows just what you can do if you're willing to pack them in like
sardines.
	IMHO, this one makes a good transport for cartingbulk troops and
their toys around, but I wouldn't want to make an opposed landing in it.

"Horus" and "Dawn Eagle"
	Merc-cruisers with meson guns! Heavy fire support whenever you
need it, whereever you need it! Problem is, it costs - the Horus has next
to no cargo capacity, and must store its carried vehicles in the cutters.
As for the Dawn Eagle, I think Mark was correct in describing it as "a
warship with some troops on it"; it's very capable, but has no backup
landing craft and is a tad expensive (the meson screen, maybe?). OTOH,
given its performance, the Imperial Navy may be interested in it.
	Other than that, I thought both these toys were very cool :)

"Cobra"
	This one was interesting - A large, high performance vessel which
carries a ton of troops, and their air support too. Problems are the lack
of cargo space and the necessity of mounting landing operations in
G-carriers, but other than that I thought it was pretty cool.

 So, anyone else want to stick their thruster-plate in?

- --
Idiot/Savant			idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
Betray your friends; Crush your enemies; 
Control the world; Drink some coffee

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:59:39 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Alien book format (not Hardcover)

Zhodani agents report that Jason Doell wrote:

- -> 
- -> This would also allow IG to release smaller items without the cost of 
- -> having to bind them. (i.e. reduced cost)
- -> Think about it.
I dare to disagree, loose leafs need higher quality paper, and are 
more expensive in the long run. They also tend to be used up sooner 
and getting more ugly by the day!

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 20:23:04 
From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Subject: Re: THUDDD Entries

Hello Mark,  on Mar 12 you wrote:

>   It was rather interesting looking at the THUDDD Entries - I did some
> preliminary design work myself, but abandoned it when work got too hectic.
> A few overall observations follow, with more detailed comments on each
> design.
>
  What happened to my entry - The Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class. It was
posted a bit before the main bunch due to a mail program problem that Paul
had.

Thanks,
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:23:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Net software woes

In mail you write:

>> What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>> destroy Redmond, WA ?
>
> 20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)

20 km at .1c is enough to turn the whole *planet* inside out. Let's not
get carried away.

20 km is 4.2e12 meters^3. Times 5.5 density for rock gives 2.3e13
tonnes. That gives 1e28 joules for a .1c impact. or 2.5e18 tonnes of
TNT. or 2.5e9 gigatons of TNT....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:07:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

In mail you write:

> Mike Sellers wrote:
>
>>Yes, and then its either large and immobile (one good nuke...) or mobile
>>but too small to be effective.  An orbital station can be large, mobile,
>>well-supplied, and well-defended.  This also means that the orbital station
>>acts as a forward base, so any attacker will have to attend to it first
>>(find it, assess it, neutralize it) before going on to the rest of the
>>planet.  This could cost you the station itself, but its sacrifice could
>>delay things enough to give you a better sense of the enemy's strength and
>>tactics, potentially saving you the planet.  
>
> In my point of view, Orbital bases would be easy target. If they can move,
> it will be a snail speed or  they were spaceships! ground facilities can
> have defensive devices too (dampers, sandcasters and so on).

Think *big*. If the base is hollowed out of an asteroid that was nudged
into a convenient orbit, it's going to take quite a bit to bother it. 
I won't recap the long arguments about "orbital forts" from last year. 

And if nothing else, given the way most civilian politicians seem to
think about such things, having it in orbit is good, because if it
*does* get blasted, it won't affect the planet's ecosphere noticeably.
Blasting a ground base tends to mess things up even if it's in the
middle of nowhere.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:57:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium

In mail you write:

> Which would result in many campaigns becoming "The Fugitive" for minor
> infractions such as property damage, possession of illegal firearms (i.e.
> automatic weapons) and other such sillinessess.  In the Imperium that we
> are using this is conveniently not the case.  The Imperium will only
> extradite or prosecute criminals for;
>
> Murder
> Uncompensated property damage over Cr 500
> Damage to a world's economic capability
> Damage to a world's ecological stability
> Possession of certain forbidden items (Nukes, Biological weapons, BeeGees
>         recordings) which they deem excessively destructive.
> Doing anything nasty or forbidden on or in an Imperial Facility
>         (Navy/Scout base, Imperial Museum, etc.)
> Entering Red Zones
>
> Basically, the idea is to not spend a lot of Imperial time and money
> chasing down kids on joyrides.  This will not prevent individual worlds
> from entering into individual extradition treaties with other Imperial
> member worlds, but that falls under the category of "internal affairs" as
> far as the Imperium is concerned.

The planet *can* hire "bounty hunters". But the way the "unwritten
laws" regarding such work, the bounty hunters can't break local laws
without getting in trouble. If they manage a "snatch" in space or in a
port's extrality without inconveniencing bystanders, they may be
allowed to get away with it, if they can deliver the prisoners without
any fuss. 

The trick is doing the snatch without bothering bystanders, and keeping
control of the prisoners *without* excessive force (drugging etc are
frowned on) until you reach the planet they are wanted on. 

Meanwhile, their friends are allowed to try to liberate them, subject
to similar restrictions. 

So it's generally not worth the trouble as the bounty hunters want
*lots* of money. And the limitations keep things "civilized" if they
do happen. 

These same "unwritten laws" deal with the occasional "private war"
(feud), interplanetary espionage, and the like. The Imperium allows
them only because there are cultures that have to have at least the
*appearance* of a change to "right" some types of "wrong".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 02:30:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

In mail you write:

> I have lots of difficulties to understand why orbital stations are
> interesting 
>
> 1- Travelling : As the contragrav lifters technology exists, and require
> only MW, it is easy for starships to land on planets. The fuel enxpenditure
> can be very small.

But it's not *insignificant*. Also, there are ships that *can't* land,
or can only do so with difficulty. And the bigger the ship, the more
reasons to make it that way.

> 2- Trading : As for travelling, orbital bases don't reduces costs, instead
> they add some handling of cargos.

Extra handling means more people get to make a profit. Only the
consumers will complain. :-)

Again, given that some ships (especially the "bulk" carriers) *cannot*
land then it definitely *is* cheaper to have a station instead of
having to send up enough shuttles to load/unload the ship RIGHT NOW. 

And if orbital stations exist, it's cheaper to build ships that *don't*
land than ones that do.

> 3- Observation : this is the only point i see, because the atmosphere of
> the planet doesn't interfere (or less) with the detections devices, the
> resolution and precision of observation should be better from orbital
> stations than from the ground of planets.

You also *want* orbiting comm sats and weather sats, as well as things
like resource mapping and observation. Once you get to the point where
you can easily have a manned presence in space, it makes more sense to
base such out of an orbital station and use "tenders" to service the
satellites. 

> 5- Research : Except the observation point, orbital stations won't be very
> usfull. They might be expensive to build and would be quite static. A
> converted spaceship or starship would be more flexible and easier to build.

Hardly. They will be *less* expensive than a ship, as they don't need a
manuever drive. And many sorts of research (more technological than
scientific) are likely to require more "room". Astronomers and the like
would want their instruments isolated from whatever people are living
in. First, to avoid the unavoidable leakages of gasses which would
interfere with observations, second, to avoid *vibrations*. So they
might live on the station and have a tight radio link to the scope,
which only gets visited once a week/month to have film cartridges
changed. (And woe to the pilot who gets far enough off his flight path
to fly *through* the observing field of the scope!)

> 6- Living : Life support is expensive, food would require to be imported,
> space farming would be more expensive. Enclosed life would be harder to
> support for people, there would be more possibilites for hobby (sports ans
> so on), so the effective volme would be reduced. 

Since a station will have artificial gravity in the living areas (by
spinning them if nothing else), most of the problems with "farming" are
minor. Life support *can't* be that expensive, or ships would be
impractical. 

As for "importing" food, most people eat imported food *now*. And don't
even realize it. How much of *your* food is produced within 100 miles
of where you live? Probably more than is true for me, given the
relative sizes of France and the US.

Since part of your argument is that it is *cheap* to get from the
surface to orbit, that *kills* the arguments that claim building a
station is expensive. Ditto for the ones about living there being
expensive. You merely need to reprocess air, and do at least *some*
processing of water and sewage. You no more grow your own food than
Paris or New York City do.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1071
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1072



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics...long
Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Re: Military Careers
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: [T97#1056] Maximum Damage
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
T4 QUESTION - autofire, suppression fire
Re:Terraforming
Lost THUDDD Entry
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia
FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:27:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Economics...long

In mail you write:

> I believe that this is the situation in much of the Third Imperium, or
> should be.  I like the play opportunities offered by the present system
> more, as it is worth the player's time to sell to low tech planets, but I
> have not yet found a reason why this would be the case.  If you see
> otherwise, explain, as I would prefer to play in a place where players sell
> to the low tech people regularly.

It's possible. The trick is figuring out what the locals are using to
*buy* the hi-tech stuff with. They *are* bartering for it. 

Consider: either they are trading straight across (like Pepsi Cola
trading X liters of Pepsi for Y liters of vodka), or they are paying
for it with currency. But where did they *get* the currency? By selling
some local product for it.

Thus, it's best to look at interstellar trade between planets of
different tech levels as being barter. So the question on each side is
what do they have that is worth something to the other side.

> In most cases, though, most of those primitive countries are not more than
> a tech level or two back.  Much of the Traveller charts are predicated on a
> just unbelievable amount of tech difference.  It is my understanding,
> subject to new data, that by the time you reach a really primitive country,
> such as any group of aborigines or non tech South American Indians, that
> the high tech goods they have are mostly those disposed of as not very
> useful by the high tech countries.  One has to have a reasonably large
> amount of local low tech industry to produce enough stuff to interest a
> high tech culture.

Expect for "arts and crafts" the *only* things a low-tech produces that
are worth anything to a high tech are raw materials. Food, fiber,
lumber, other plant products (spices, drug precursors, etc). Ditto for
animal products. And mineral products will be ores, semi-refined
metals, and stones ranging from gems to fancy building stones. 

Manufactured goods from low tech countries tend to be pretty rare.
Mostly clothing and a bit of furniture.

Luckily, the bigger the tech level difference the fewer high tech items
the low tech culture wants/needs. Drugs and medical items, yes. But the
other types of "expensive" items are not as high volume. Transportation
will be in demand, but more demand will be for trucks than cars, and
more for buses than cars as well.

> The TL4 culture is a completely different story. I would be surprised if
> the archetypical family in the TL4 area making $2 a day could afford such a
> car?  It would be useful as all hell to them, despite difficulty
> maintaining it and fueling it, but they do not have the money to buy it in
> the first place.  If there is someone at TL4 whose income is derived from
> several hundred such low wage workers wanted this cheap car, though, they
> could afford it.

Strangely, cars sell for a lot less in South America. Several hundred
dollars will do. That's why they have plants in Brazil producing *new*
VW "Bugs".

> Only if the multiple suppliers brings the price down to where an individual
> can afford it.  I can easily see a one or two tech level difference being
> worth only 20-50%, and that being taken as profit.

Depends on *where* the high tech goods are produced. The Brazilian
factory can produce a new car for a thousand or so because they don't
have to pay workers $20/hr. (Why do you think so much clothing
production and "assembly" type work is done in "poor" countries)

Until we get *real* automation (or "faber" type technology) this will
be a factor. Then, the prices will hit a minimum. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:34:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

In mail you write:

>>What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>>destroy Redmond, WA ?
>
> Best be sure and take out the entire left coast, "It's the Only Way to
> Be Sure" (tm) !!

Ahem.

Since I live in Portland, Or, I take objection to that idea.

And .1c rocks are overkill for taking out Microsft. A few well aimed
particle beams will deal with the situation (PBs have some EMP-like
side effects that are *ideal* in this situation :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:42:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Military Careers

In mail you write:

> Back to Traveller =96 The military offers lots of good traditions today,
> any thoughts on some future traditions? a.k.a. the low berth lottery?

Well, I've always been fond of the traditions of the Patrol, as set
forth by Heinlein in "Space Cadet". One tradition is that they have 4
names that are called at all formal musterings. We only know what two
of them did. John Rivera went in to negotiate with officials in his
native city during a rebellion. He left orders that the city was to be
nuked on schedule if he didn't return. The officials held him hostage.
The orders were carried out. 

The other one of The Four about whom we have any info is Erza
Dahlquist. He died preventing a mutiny from succeding. His story is
told in "The Long Watch".

BTW, "The Long Watch" originally appeared in American Legion magazine!
Some day I'm going to try tracking it down in the local used magazine
store.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:42:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

In mail you write:

> In-Reply-To: <199703072340.RAA27889@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
>
> << Underslung grenade launchers are good too, except that you have a limited
> rate of fire, high recoil, and again, limited ammunition. You have to paste
> everyone with the grenades before they can get a PGMP shot on you too.
> Finally you have to kill all them before they get close enough for you to
> start suffering collateral damage from the fragments. >>
>
> The sensors, stealth, grav pack, etc in ABD means the guy with the GL (and 
> most of his friends) are dead before they even know the fight has started. 
> Even if he does get a shot off, the PD laser will shoot it down...
>
> You f*ck with ABD, you die.

Not necessarily. I can lay back a mile or so and punch holes in ABD
with an "anti-material rifle". .50 cal to 20 mm slug at a high velocity
will ruin your day. The laser can't detontate it, as it's a solid slug
(though it may have a penetrator dart core). It can't vaporize it, as
you don't have *that* kind of power available. So it hits and punches a
hole in you.

Mind you, it's best to do this from behind *heavy* cover and as part of
a co-ordinated assualt (ie multiple fire teams from multiple directions).

ps. I find a PD laser on BD *really* unlikely. It can't have all that
much power, so it's only good for prematurely detonating some types of
rounds. And the claymore/explosive coating idea isn't any better.
There's not enough surface to make that tactic workable. If you use
enough to be sure of knocking something out, you just made yourself
vulnerable to a shot from *near* the same direction. Attack from 4
seperate directions and the stuff will all have been used. so it's just
not a useful tactic.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:06:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T97#1056] Maximum Damage

In mail you write:

>  Now, however indirectly, even a nascent Third Imperium is going
>  to be carrying around the emotional baggage of an 11,000-year-
>  old Vilani empire, plus that of myriad local cultures.  I would
>  think that such an Imperium would be wise to not mess (for the
>  most part) with a sophont's religious beliefs; and as long as
>  the rituals neither put the sophont or his comrades-in-arms at
>  risk, nor have clear negative impact on their ability to
>  execute their duties, there would be a hands-off policy.

For an *excellent* treatment of this sort of thing, check out Mercedes
Lackey's "Storm Rising". It's fantasy, but has an incident that's an
*excellent model for this. A military commander is "cut off" and
managed to get winter quarters (for a *nasty* winter) set up.

An officer approaches the commander because most of his sub-unit
bellong to a particular shamanistic religion and they want permission
to set up a sweat lodge in a corner of the barracks. The commander
merely makes sure that it won't take up too much space, and says that
any extended spirit quests will require using leave time. And throws in
a joke about ketting one's spirit go for a walk if there's to much snow
to do it in the body. 

>  Remember: An RPG is about "real" people, and real people have
>  quirks, eccentricities, emotional baggage, and so on.  A
>  universe full of such people is _not_ going to be drily
>  rational, or conformant to one particular culture's ideals.

Yep. And if a culture gets a high tech level but keeps things like
"simple" religions, then you *are* going to have scenes like the one I
describe above. 

>  This makes the SF universe of Traveller _more_ SF and _less_
>  Fantasy - a good thing, IMO.

Different cultural "views" are a *good* thing for giving the game some
flavor. There are human cultures right here on earth that are *more*
alien than anything presented so far in traveller.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 02:52:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

In mail you write:

>    I can think of only one good reason why orbital stations would be
>    /common/. (There are lots of different reasons why they may be here
>    or there.)  You need them to get cargoes and passengers off of and
>    onto starships that do not have streamlining and cannot land on
>    planets. Such starships are fairly common in the Traveller universe,
>    due to their relatively low cost.  An orbital port need be little
>    more than a waiting area for passengers, with lots of docking
>    facilities for whatever kind of vessel that needs to interface with
>    the local orbital shuttle buses. It may also include shops, cafes,
>    and viewing ports, depending on its elegance. It will probably
>    include some fairly sophisticated cargo-handling gear as well, but it
>    needs very little in the way of life support. I can't imagine that
>    anyone would /live/ in such a place; it would be like living in a bus
>    station.

Think of it more like an international airport. It's surrounded by
warehouses *and* hotels. 

The hotels are for crews that want to get off the ship while "in port".
For business people who "flew in" for a conference with the local
branch. For people working at the port who find it easier to live there
than commute. Etc.

Consider: At lower tech levels it's expensive enough to get to/from the
station that you'd really like to minimize "unecessary" trips to the
ground. So low tech stations *will* have living quaters, and the
staff/crew will trade off, rather like the blue & gold crews on an
SSBN. And you want *good* living quarters and food/etc so they are
happy. 

At high tech levels it's *cheap*, but it's still cheaper to not make
runs back and forth. So what you lose in folks commuting, you'll gain
back in "tourists". The snob types who take a shuttle up to eat in the
restaurant so they can say "Oh yes, as I said to Charles last night up
in the 'Starview Lounge'..."

BTW, it's *much* easier to trust the life support gear if the engineers
and their families are living on the station. Gives them that extra
reason to do the job right.

Oh yeah, if zero-g sex is at all good, expect *lots* of honeymooners in
the zero-g section of the hotel!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:12:12 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: T4 QUESTION - autofire, suppression fire

T4 states that snapfire allows a player to move and shoot in the same
round.  It also states that aimed fire does not allow movement.  But it
doesn't state one way or the other with autofire or suppression fire.

Is movement allowed?

TIA,

 James Garriss                             "Everything that can be
 System Engineer, MITRE               invented has been invented."
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              Charles H. Duell, Commissioner
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss       U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 12:01:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re:Terraforming

    Sorry I'm behind here, just getting to these Digests from a few days ago...

"Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net> hath written...
>> So, what questions have I missed?  An important point here to consider,
>> the limitations of jump drive.  You can export only so many people so
>> far to your frontier, it takes a long time to move any serious distance
>> in Traveller.
> Sorry, this just struck me as funny :-) We have ships that can move
> 6 parsecs in a week, and we're discussing how limited they are....<g>
    Ever try moving a thousand people across those 6 parsecs? ;) Those ships
get real expensive real quick!  And I'm thinking in terms of the core to the
Spinward Marches, Glimerdrift Reaches and so on.  Try moving a thousand people
across a couple of Hundred parsecs. ;) Worse thing is that a thousand people is
insignificant in terms of a planet or planetary colonization.

> Reminds me of the Senator (can't recall the name) who was quoted
> "A billion dollars here, a billion dollars there, and pretty soon
> you're talking serious money."  <G>
    I live in Washington Paul, some of the people who work up on the Hill are
my friends, the stories they tell... ::SHUDDER:: But in terms of the Federal
Budget, a billion or ten isn't much money.  Still it does show how the Greatest
Hot Air Factory in the World thinks.

    But back to what started this, Terraformation, colonization and all of
that.  If I'm the government of the Imperium, which ever incarnation you care
to choose.  Then I'm going to be VERY interested in anything which saves me
from having to send colonists across hundreds of parsecs when I can send them
across five or ten to develop a new world.  The very way Traveller is set up an
intelligent interstellat government is going to want to develop worlds and
systems closer to it's core then farther away.  The communications difficulties
inherient in Jump Drive mandate this really.
    Thinking on it in fact I wonder if a lot of those questionable worlds that
made no sense in the Hard Times Era weren't really Terraformation candidates.


And Neveron@aol.com hath written...

> - -Giant space mirrors to focus sunlight to melt polar ice caps.
> This is easy, you could build them with Bubble gum and Aqua-net.
    ::BLINK::  Care to explain HOW those two particular substances woul be
used?

> - -Ice mining ships to transport huge iceburgs from other planets
> rings and drop them on the planet to be terraformed. These could
> be fairly small but would need a massive manuver drive. If the
> iceburg is large enough, it will collapse from its own weight.
> Smaller ones would need some help from the mirrors.
    <SIGH> You've got years so all you need to do is identify the appropriate
bergs and then NUDGE them into Holiman low energy transfer orbits.  I might
take the berg years to intercept the planet's orbit at the appropriate point...
but you HAVE decades.  Oh and why wouldn't you break the berg up on approach
into little fragments so you don't have huge impact, just lots of tiny ones
that don't seriously effect the planet.  The ones that burn up in the
atmosphere eventually percipitate out as rain and the ones that don't burn up
are in managable chunks on the ground.

>> What kind of costs?
> This is a government project, not a private contract.Get the
> figures on Boston's Big Dig and multiply by 10. Even Ted Kennedy
> can't raise that kind of cash.
    Nope, I think the MegaCorps could do it as a long term investment.  In fact
it would be in the Imperium's interest to encourage them.  I could easily see a
MegaCorp getting real interested in doing this if it had free and clear title
to the Terraformed world for say two or three centuries after the place was
certified as habitable.  The MegaCorp gets a real sweet deal too, not only do
they get to sell pieces of the planet at prime prices, they get to essentially
create a captive market and growing market, and as the putative goverment, they
get to pocket the taxes they collect!

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:53:26 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>
Subject: Lost THUDDD Entry

Somehow my THUDDD entry got lost...no big deal. But since I put a deal of work into it,
I'd like to submit this design to the list, and I ask people to comment on it. Note that this
design is not part of the THUDDD contest, so don't list it on the ballot. Hopefully my next
entry won't get misplaced! I look forward to your comments:

Kerzakhi class mercenary cruiser (SSDS)

Tons: 1,000 std (SL cyl) Volume: 14,000 m^3        Cost: 826.353 (no vehicles)
Crew: 29                 Passengers Hi/Med: 0/0    Passengers Lo: 0
Cargo: 11 std            Controls: Mil Standard    Tech Level: 12
                           (/bridge /fib)

9  Size

1xMeson Projector (+4) 2/1-0-0-0                 2 Jump Drive
2xLaser Array (+4) 1/4-3-2-1                     2 Manuever 
2xMissile Cell (+4) 12/12                        2 Power Plant
  w/ 12 Guided OrbBomb 1/8 3G24                201 Fuel
             - or -                              2 Sandcaster 
  w/ 12 Guided DetLaser 1d6/2 6G12               2 Nuclear Damper
                                               112 Meson Screen
15xDocking Slip (10-ton craft)                   0 Black Globe
1xMinimal Hangar (10-ton craft)         A10 P4 J10 Sensors (/EMM)
                                               100 Armor, 33 Structure

Crew Details: 3 Command, 2 Maneuver, 3 Electronics, 7 Gunnery, 1 Shields,
  6 Engineering, 4 Maintenance, 2 Steward, 1 Medical

Notes: Ship provides accomodations for a light company of troops (86 men).
  Ship has engineering shop, vehicle shop, 8-bed sickbay, 2xjump capsule
  launchers (8 ready capsules each), 7x5 std recreation/ready rooms.
  Accomodations are as follows: Command crew and troop officers in large
  staterooms (7), ship section heads and troop NCOs in small staterooms (15),
  remaining crew and troops in bunks (95).

- --------------------------- PRESS RELEASE --------------------------------

  Mekhuriim industries is pleased to announce the public release of the
Kerzakhi class mercenary cruisers.

  Originally designed to meet the MIL-86725-R12 specification in the call
for designs issued by the Imperial Marine Corps, the Kerzakhi has been
redesigned for public use by licenced mercenary companies and corporate
security forces.

  When designing the Kerzakhi class, the special projects group at
Mekhuriim set several design goals:
  - The ability to deliver and deploy a complete light company of
    lift infantry and their support equipment.
  - High survivability in ground and space operations
  - Significant orbital bombardment and troop support abilities.
  - Atmospheric entry and landing.
  Every starship design is an exercise in compromises - and the Kerzakhi
is no exception. In order to meet their design goals, the design team
reduced the operational range of the ship, from the 3 parsec standard
of most mercenary cruisers to a more modest 2 parsec range. While some would
consider this a serious flaw in the ship's design, the team at Mekhuriim
believe that the Kerzahki class is a superior design, capable of superb
performance in its operational theatre. Studies into the possibilities
of supplmentary drop-tanks for longer ranges is being examined.

  The Kerzahki class may have a shorter range than most mercenary cruisers,
and its maneuver performance is the standard 2-Gs, but in most other
respects it is the equal or better to any design.
  To improve survivability, the Kerzakhi has an extremely durable armor
belt that exceeds even many imperial warships. The hull and structural
integretity of the ship have been reinforced to support over 20Gs of
acceleration - allowing the ship to absorb damage that would destroy ships
twice its size. The Kerzakhi mounts an impressive array of defensive systems:
twin ablative sand dispensers can provide anti-laser protection, a
single nuclear damper projector mounted on the bow can intercept nuclear
missiles, and the entire ship is protected with a meson decay field. To round
off the protective features of the ship, the Kerzakhi mounts a Shirgu QR-782
active EMS jammer array and the entire hull is equiped with EMM radiators and
other stealth features. When painted with BlackHole (tm) hull coating, the
Kerzakhi has impressive stealth performance, an important feature for ships
performing convert and/or surprise troop actions.
  While the Kerzakhi is not intended to be deployed in a space-combat arena,
the ship mounts a sizeable weapons grid. The primary long-range weapons are twin 
laser arrays mounted on the dorsal and ventral surfaces. The ship's missile 
batteries, while intended for orbital bombardment, can be loaded with standard
detonation laser missiles for space combat. The ship also mounts the new 
Milidyne RJ-720 1000Mj meson particle projector, which has extremely short range
but can inflict incredible damage upon ships without meson decay fields.
  The weaponry of the Kerzakhi was designed for orbital support missions, and
it meets the challenge extremely well. The meson projector, which some people
argue is nearly useless in space combat due to it's range, can perform surgical
meson strikes from orbit upon ground-based hard targets. The two missile batteries
can be loaded with orbital bombardment projectiles with a various number of
warheads, including FASCAM, MIRV-HEAP, and even (with proper permits) nuclear.
The Kerzahki's nuclear damper projector has sufficient range to perform
strategic damper support for troops on the surface, protecting the ground
forces from nuclear warheads and performing cleanups upon fallout zones.
  The primary purpose of the Kerzakhi is to deploy a light company (two 
platoons) of lift infantry into a planetary theatre. The Kerzahki typically
carries 86 troops, organized as follows:

                          Company Command(8)
                         +-------------------+
                         | Captain, 2 NCOs,  |
                         |  Driver, Gunner,  |
                         | trooper, 2 scouts |
                         |     2 scouts      |  
                         +---------+---------+
                                   |
                   +---------------+---------------+
                   |               |               |
             1st Platoon (4)  2nd Platoon    Flight Wing (6)
          +--------+--------+     (26)     +-------+-------+
          |   Lieutenant,   |  [see 1st]   |  Lieutenant,  |
          |  NCO, Driver,   |              |     NCO,      |       
          |     Gunner      |              |  4 mechanics  |
          +--------+--------+              +-------+-------+
                   |                               |
        +----------+----------+         +----------+----------+
        |                     |         |                     |
  A Section (11)        B Section (11)  |                 Drop Sqd (10)
+--------+--------+    [see A section]  |            +--------+--------+
|      1 NCO      |                     |            |     1 NCO,      |
|  Driver, Gunner |              Fighter Sqd (10)    |    4 Pilots,    |
|   8 troopers    |            +--------+--------+   |    5 Gunners    |
+-----------------+            |      1 NCO      |   +-----------------+
                               |     9 Pilots    |
                               +-----------------+

  The complete order of battle includes 3 officers, 11 NCOs, 33 troopers,
14 vehicle crewmembers, 9 fighter pilots, and 9 dropship crewmembers. In
this configuration, the Kerzakhi carries 5 Maarmadin class assault landers
(2 landers equiped with Rish class APCs, 2 landers equiped with Rish
class APCs and Ishkiansus class recon sleds, and 1 lander equiped with
Kimbamgir class C3 command sled) and 10 Khuugli class strike fighters. This
arrangement allows the entire company to deploy as one unit and provides
ample air support for the ground troops. The strike fighter can also be
deployed in space to supplement the mothership's offensive weaponry.
  The small craft are all carried in the huge central hangar. Slips are
provided for 15 ten ton craft, and a hangar is also provided. The hangar
is intended to be used for weapon refitting and repairs, but it is possible
for the hangar to be used to hold an additional craft. Automated systems
can move a ship from it's slip to the hangar to be prepared for a drop.
  When outfitted in the above fashion, a squadron of two Kerzakhi class ships 
can transport an entire full company of lift infantry and their equipment.
  While the above order of battle is considered to be typical, it is possible
to outfit the ship's troops in other fashions.
  One common change is to assign one platoon to the jump capsules and
replace their APCs with Grav Tanks for additional firepower.
  Another possibility is do dispence with the flight wing altogether,
and add another platoon of troops. Note that in this configuration, the
Kerzakhi must either enter near orbit or land on the target world, as the
APCs contra-grav drives cannot operate in deep space. In this configuration,
a great deal of the flight deck is unused (over 50%). Extra space can be used 
stores.
  Recently, the ISS Radelagimdii was outfitted to carry an entire reinforced
company of grav tanks ( 25 Ghardak class grav tanks and crew ).
  The Kerzakhi is tight design, with even cubic meter of the ship in use. Space
is at a premium, so the majority of the crew and troops sleep in bunks. To
provide recreation for these individuals, there are 7 recreation/ready rooms
in the ship (1 for ship's crew, 1 for A Sectio, 1 for B Section, 1 for C Section,
1 for D Section, 1 for Fighter Squadron, 1 for Dropship Squadron). The ship has
a modest 8-bed medical bay, and engineering shops are available for ship and
small craft repair.

  Mekhuriim believes that the Kerzakhi class will be a fine addition to the
Mekhuriim fleet. Large order discounts available!

- --------------------------- Design Notes --------------------------------
  First of all - sorry for the long post. But it sure is fun.
  For those who wish to know, I got the jump capsule stats from
Classic Traveller's Striker, which says that a capsule launcher is
1 std (14m3) and each ready capsule is .5 std (7m3).
  I took a bit of liberty in the layout of the hangar deck - I built
this as 15 10-ton docking rings (the slips) and 1 10-ton hangar. I
envision a huge room with ships hanging from racks, moved into place to
be worked upon and launched. I paid for all of the launch ports, but in
my mind there would be only 1 larger than normal port. I'd allow 2, maybe
3 ships launch/land at a time. But technically, they're just 15 10-ton
rings.
  The price listed doesn't include small craft - I'm not sure if the ships
in starships include their small craft in their price or not. If you include
the small craft, well, it goes up a bit :) The price with vehicles is
1343.235 MCr. The majority of the price increase is the fighters.
  For those who care, here are the vehicle designs, from CSC.

  Khuugii class strike fighter - 10 std disk airframe w/ stealth.
    Armor: 16. Crew: 1. Power: 86.4MW Fusion+ plant with 100hr endurance.
    Power: 9Mw weapon-grade storage bank. Mil-spec orbital range radio,
    laser commo, maser commo, radar. Mil-spec continental range ladar.
    Ejection seat, basic LS, fire suppression, 3G grav comp.
    Weapons:
      Starship grade laser, ROF increased to 100 (1/2-0-0-0)
      Heavy plasma cannon
      10 heavy missiles
    Performance:
      Acceleration after gravity: 5G
      Max speed: 1087kph
      Agility: -3DM
    Cost: 32.999 MCr

  Maarmadin class assault lander - 10 std wedge streamlined w/ stealth.
    Armor: 22. Crew: 2. Power 34.1Mw Fusion+ plant with 200 hr endurance.
    Power: 9Mw weapon-grade storage bank. Mil-spec orbital range radio,
    laser commo, maser commo, radar. Mil-spec continental range ladar.
    Mil-spec orbital range radar jammer. 2 ejection seats, basic LS,
    fire suppression, 3G grav comp, 1 std vehicle bay (for recon sled),
    4 std vehicle bay (for APC).
    Weapons:
      2 light plasma cannons
      2 rapid-fire Gauss machine guns (2 reloads available)
      2 point-defence rapid-fire lasers
      20 heavy missiles
    Performance:
      Acceleration after gravity: 2G
      Max speed: 215kph
      Agility: +0
    Cost: 23.89 MCr

  Rish class armored personnel carrier - 4 std box streamlined w/ stealth.
    Armor: 22. Crew: 3. Power: 10.6Mw Fusion+ plant with 200hr endurance.
    Power: 9Mw weapon-grade storage-bank. Mil-spec orbital range radio,
    laser commo, maser commo. Mil-spec regional range nuclear and gravtic
    sensors. Mil-spec sub-contenental range radar, ladar, and optical.
    3 ejection seats, roomy seating for 8, basic LS, fire suppression,
    3G grav comp, 1m^3 cargo.
    Weapons:
      Light plasma cannon
      Rapid-fire Gauss machine gun (2 reloads available)
      Point-defence rapid-fire laser
      5 heavy missiles
    Performance:
      Acceleration after gravity: 3G
      Max speed: 240kph
      Agility: -2DM
    Cost: 9.502 MCr

  Kimbamgir class C^3 command vehicle - 4 std box streamlined w/ stealth.
    Armor: 22. Crew: 6. Power: 11.5Mw Fusion+ plant with 200hr endurance.
    Power: 7.5Mw weapon-grade storage-bank. Mil-spec orbital range radio,
    laser commo, maser commo. Mil-spec contenental range nuclear, gravtic,
    radar, ladar, and optical - all with dispersed arrays. Mil-spec
    contenental range radio and radar jammers. 6 ejection seats, roomy 
    seating for 2, basic LS, fire suppression, 3G grav comp, 3m^3 of
    computer equipment.
    Weapons:
      Nuclear damper (2000km range)
      Light plasma cannon
      Rapid-fire Gauss machine gun (2 reloads available)
      Point-defence rapid-fire laser
      5 heavy missiles
    Performance:
      Acceleration after gravity: 3G
      Max speed: 257kph
      Agility: -2DM
    Cost: 23.45 MCr

  Ishkiansus class recon sled - 1 std box streamlined w/ stealth.
    Armor: 14. Crew: 3. Power: 4.8Mw Fusion+ plant with 200hr endurance.
    Power: .6Mw weapon-grade storage-bank. Mil-spec orbital range radio,
    laser commo, maser commo. Mil-spec regional range nuclear and gravtic
    sensors. Mil-spec sub-contenental range radar, ladar, and optical.
    All sensors have dispersed arrays. 4 ejection seats, roomy seating 
    for 1, basic LS, fire suppression, 6G grav comp, 1m^3 of computer 
    equipment.
    Weapons:
      Rapid-fire Gauss machine gun (2 reloads available)
      Point-defence rapid-fire laser
      2 heavy missiles
    Performance:
      Acceleration after gravity: 5G
      Max speed: 916.83kph
      Agility: -4DM
    Cost: 3.446 MCr




+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@netins.net - http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/   |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:52:33 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Malaysia

Neveron wrote:

>
>In a message dated 97-03-12 22:27:27 EST, you write:
>
>>	I say we nuke the site from orbit...
>
>Thats crass. Bring the Battledress, I say we invade!
>Neveron


	That wasn't crass, that was a quote from Aliens!  Now spamming the
TML, that's crass!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:09:48 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

	Got fed up last night with studying and decided to do up this
design I've had percolating since I saw Star Wars last week: visualize a
handgun about 18" long, only 6" of which are actually barrel, with a laser
sight hanging off one side, a telescopic sight on the top, a bulge under
the barrel for the gyro comp, and a big box magazine forwards of the
pistolgrip.  Note the damage rating for HE rounds.

News Item, Sylean Gauss Enthusiasts Weekly, Year 0 Day 72

	"It was with some trepidation that this reporter ventured aboard
the Famille Spofulam conglomerate's orbital HQ to attend Famille Spofulam
Armaments'  introduction of their new DH-1 "Blaster" gauss pistol.
Fortunately, the press buffet was up to Famille Spofulam's usual
megalomaniacal standards, which did much to allay my fears.

	After the wreckage of the buffet was cleared away, we were ushered
into a gleaming, spotless, hi-tech pistol range where Hengabar Spofulam
himself, the notorious CEO of the Famille Spofulam group awaited us, the
crisp lines of his business suit somewhat spoiled by an improbably large
holster strapped to his hip.

	A holovid presentation on the weapon followed.  The DH-1 Blaster
shows a typical Famille Spofulam lack of subtlety about its design; the
ridiculously huge dart, a full 15 mm X 75 mm and better suited to a VRF
gauss support weapon than a handgun, weighs a massive 7.06 grams.  The
rounds are so large, in fact, that they have to be carried in a large box
magazine mounted forwards of the triggerguard, which contains a mere eight
rounds.  The Blaster itself is ungainly; it is over 46 cm long, and weighs
a truly massive 4.2 kilograms.  And lovers of sleek, light, streamlined
gauss weapons will be horrified at the Blaster's aesthetics; a dull matte
black anodized finish does little to conceal the sheer ugliness of an
oversized weapon with a box magazine, a laser dot sight, an optic sight,
and an underbarrel gyro recoil compensator hanging off it.  It looks like
the sort of weapon the villains in bad tri-dee flicks carry.

	However, a brief demonstration of its capabilities proved that
there was a certain method to the usual Spofulam madness at work here.
After the presentation, the lights were raised back to normal, and a
curtain rose at the far end of the range.  It revealed a large melon,
perched precariously atop what appeared to be a plaster bust of notorious
industrialist Sir Arameth Gridlore.  Bracing the weapon with both hands,
and taking careful aim, Mr. Spofulam squeezed off a single round.  It was
then that the reason for the weapon's name became apparent; a 7-gram, 15mm
HE round travelling at 1,500 m/s makes for a truly impressive detonation
upon impact, especially when it impacts a plaster bust square between the
eyes.  White plaster dust and large fragments of the bust flew everywhere,
and the melon, riddled with fragments, crashed to the floor and shattered.

	Mr. Spofulam peered downrange, and muttered "Missed, dammit!""



T4 Stats:

Damage: 6 dart, 8.5 HE
TL: 12
Range: Medium (51.2 m)
Shots: 8 rounds
Mass: 4.21 kg loaded, 3.34 kg empty
Reloads: 0.87 kg
Cost: 1030.83




FF&S design notes:

Round: 15 mm X 75 mm, price .28 Cr (0.59 HE, 0.85 HEAP), weight 7.06 gr.

Barrel length: 15 cm
Barrel weight: 0.45 kg
Barrel price: 270 Cr
Muzzle velocity: 1500 m/s
Muzzle energy: 7942.5 joules
Req'd energy: 15885 joules
Damage value: 6 (HE: 8.5)

Reciever weight: 1.59 kg
Reciver length: 31.6 cm
Reciever price: 159 Cr
(ROF: semiauto)

pistol grip (hollow) weight: 0.2 kg
Stock price: 5 Cr
Range: 51.2 m (240 w/laser sight)

8-round box mag
Battery weight: 0.76 kg
Mag weight (empty): 0.81 kg
Mag price (empty): 2 Cr
Mag weight (loaded): 0.87
Mag cost (loaded): 4.24 Cr

Options: Laser sight (.5 kg/300 Cr), Optic sight (.1kg/150 cr) Gyro Comp
(.5kg/300 cr)

Recoil: 1.54

LOA: 46.6 cm
Weight: 4.21 kg

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1072
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1073



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: My sincere apology to all subcribers ( traveller only )
Re: Net software woes
Re: Homo antiquitus
Re: Homo Antiquitus
Re: Net software woes
T4 questions
Re: Orbital stations question rantish reply
Re: Orbital stations
[Traveller Answer] What is Contra-Grav for?
Re: Homo Antiquitus
Re:  Costs of thruster plates
Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
Re: Vargr-K'kree Wars
Re: Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)
Re: Vargr-K'kree War
Re: Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)
Re: THUDDD Entries

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:13:16 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: My sincere apology to all subcribers ( traveller only )

Lee Shing Ket wrote:

>
>Hi,
>
>My ( Newcomer ) sincere apology to all subcribers for my recent posting.
>I should not subcribe the list and do posting immediately. Maybe,
>lurking is the best alternative to understand the right behaviour of a
>subscriber on the list.
[snip]


	Rats.  I guess we can't really nuke the place now :).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:18:45 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Net software woes

Leonard M. Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>>> What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>>> destroy Redmond, WA ?
>>
>> 20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)
>
>20 km at .1c is enough to turn the whole *planet* inside out. Let's not
>get carried away.
>
>20 km is 4.2e12 meters^3. Times 5.5 density for rock gives 2.3e13
>tonnes. That gives 1e28 joules for a .1c impact. or 2.5e18 tonnes of
>TNT. or 2.5e9 gigatons of TNT....


	Let's not forget that this is *BILL GATES* we're talking about!
We've got to make sure!  I say we go for a bigger rock!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:29:42 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus

 
> >species attribution in paleontology is that we can't really use the
> >"if they can produce fertile offsping they're the same species test."  
> 
> Are you referring to the practical difficulty involved in mating with someome
> that has been dust for umpteen millenia, or are you saying that such a test,
> even if it was possible, would be invalid? In the second case you'll have
> to explain why. In the first, who knows? There may still be some Homo
> antiquitus stuck in a stasis filed somewhere... ;-)

I meant that in paleontology it isn't an option since they're dead.
Obviously if gandfather left some in stasis we're in luck :-)
 
> >In addition, speciation can be allowed on geographic, or
> >even preferencial basis---a given critter _could_ breed with
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can even argue about wether or not two
> individuals are of the same species without involving the definition of
> being of the same species. If we can't use the aforementioned test (at
> least theoretically) what's the point of using the word?

The definition of species _is_not_ that they can breed and produce
fertile offspring, that is my point.  It's goofy, I know, but it's
true.

The real point of my post was that _Homo_erectus_ was named under
these naming conventions, so the fact that it has a different
species designation doesn't tell us a damn thing about how well we
could breed with it.  That make more sense?
  
> >>And this apply even if someone proves conclusively that in reality our
> >>great^10,000-grandfather wasn't Homo Sap. In the Traveller universe he was.
> > 
> >No, it proves that we were interfertile with _H.erectus_. 
> 
> (And proves it without applying the test, btw.) So dosen't that mean that we
> are the same species as _H.antiquitus_ still?

No, due to the way species are named, it isn't.  You could have a
different species with two sufficiently different sub-populations if
they never bred simply because they never had the chance.  Odd, huh?

> >Actually, this isn't surprising, really.  If we were able to breed with any
> >other species, it would be one that follows or preceedes us since at some 
> >point there was a _H.erectus/H.sapiens(archaic)_ walking around.
> 
> But we wouldn't be able to breed with the species preceding or following us
> since the definition of different species is that they can't breed (well,
> produce fertile offspring, actually). I must be missing some part of your
> argument here.

That's the trick, that isn't really the definition.  If we applied
that test, there would be many fewer species than we list now.
Also, you'd have to use some kind of sub-species designation to
describe what critter you're talking about.
 
There are extant animals that are in 2 species even though they can
breed due to geographic isolation (breeding is possible in the lab,
but never happens in nature).

> >Breeding with an australopithicene would be more dicey, but who
> >knows, look how close we are to _Pan_troglodytes_ (chimpanzee)...
> 
> Close, but not close enough to even produce infertile progeny, much less
> fertile.
 
True, but our split with Pan was a Looong time ago, even compared
with 3 MYA with australopiticines.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:26:51 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Homo Antiquitus

However, the dates of 300,000 years would mean that they were not Homo
Sapiens sapiens (modern humans) or Neanderthals, but, Homo Sapiens archaic
(if they were H. Sapiens at all). This might mean a lot more variation,
while still allowing interbreeding, than if they were modern humans.

Guy Wilson

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Robert Flammang writes:
> >>From: Joseph Chepe Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
> > 
> >>I have some notes about the Acheron of my own design: they're of Neanderthal
> >>heritage (CT Library Data implies not all minor human races are of Homo
> >>sapiens: some are merely Homo).  They spent centuries living underground
> > 
> >    (1) Neadertals were (probably) H. sapiens.  This has recently come
> >    into doubt in some circles though.
> > 
> >    (2) Neanderthals lived 30-100 thousand years ago, long after the
> >    ancients had come and gone. This is much more certain.
> > 
> >    I recommend H. erectus as an alternative.  Erectus died out about 100
> >    thousand years ago.  There were other human species around at that
> >    time too, I think. (H. afarensis? H. heidelbergensis? H. rudolfus?  I
> >    can't really recall offhand.)
> 
> In the Traveller universe the individuals that the Ancients took from Earth
> 300,000 years ago (which I have dubbed Homo Antiquitus - Ancient Man) were 
> Homo Sapiens, regardless of what science may conclude about things in the 
> Real World (tm). This is evident from the fact that Solomani, Vilani, 
> Zhodani, Darrians and numerous other human races are interfertile 300,000
> years later (Though that dosen't necesarily mean that _all_ minor human 
> races are interfertile). If a Solomani is interfertile with 300,000 year
> divergent descendants of Homo Antiquitus like the Darrians and the Vilani
> then surely he would be interfertile with Homo Antiquitus too.
> 
> And this apply even if someone proves conclusively that in reality our
> great^10,000-grandfather wasn't Homo Sap. In the Traveller universe he was.
> 
> 
>       Hans Rancke
> University of Copenhagen
>      rancke@diku.dk
> ------------
>         "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>          events based on the individual situation."
>                                 _76 Patrons_, p. 8
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 02:02:42 +1100
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Net software woes

At 09:18 13/03/97 -0500, you wrote:

>	Let's not forget that this is *BILL GATES* we're talking about!
>We've got to make sure!  I say we go for a bigger rock!
>

It'll never work, remember he's got lawyers who can stop rocks at 30K km,
and failing that will buy the rights for rock dropping from under you.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul A Harris
Better known as Harry.

Yes, I finally have a signature.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid that I regard the universe as some practical joke being pulled
on me by some higher being(s), I'm only glad that they have made it so much
fun!
								Me.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:13:24 +0000
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: T4 questions

Dear all,

I'm a refugee from Xboat who's not had email for months, so apologies 
if all this is very old hat. (If it is, do email me rather than 
posting and spare everyone else...)

i) I assume Milieu 0 takes prcedence over T4 basic, and the Core 
subsector map in the latter is therefore, um, wrong / non-canonical.
Is this generally accepted?

ii) What fixes to SSDS and QSDS are there which aren't in the T4 
errata and .pdf files? Specifically:

o Are life-support volumes (& masses?) a factor of 14 too small?

o Are the drive costs accurate? (There has been some mention of 
adjusting the costs of, um, HEPlaR I think it was... whichever.)

Thanks for your help,

Nick
Dr. Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies
 (formerly nsm14@cus.cam.ac.uk, now N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk)

Scientist * Freelance theologian * Traveller player and BITS member

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:28:01 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations question rantish reply

At 10:28 AM 3/13/97 +0100, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
>I agree with you about imagining 
>BUT I remember an 30's american movie which story was supposed to take
>place in 80's. They've stated that every body would have a personnal plane
>and would got to work by air. Seem to be wrong. 
>
>Today's The small personnal planes are 50's techno. The prices of such
>devices aren't reduced because we are able to build the F117 or the space
>shuttle. Such simple planes are expensive, even if it's an old technology.
>How many of you have one?

Well this isn't _quite_ true.  The reasons more people don't buy and fly
airplanes is not because the airframe technology hasn't kept up, or because
they're so expensive.  At least in the US, you can buy or make an airplane
for less than the cost of a car -- I have a friend who has just hand-built
a non-metallic carbon-fiber composite airplane for very little money
(hardly 1950s technology!).  The bottlenecks come in with training,
licensing, airport fees, and other forms of governmental and corporate
regulation.  Further, with the advent of a successful highway system, the
need for more complex and potentially dangerous local air traffic has been
markedly reduced.  

>TNE stated that a TL6 car cost around 5000Cr. An enclosed Air Raft for 4
>passenger is about 270 000 Cr!!! It's exacly the same problem of plane.
>It's not because the technology exists that normal being can buy it (even
>on a high TL world). 

But air rafts are *much* more powerful and versatile than we give them
credit.  Owning one would be something like owning a corporate jet, not a
fancy car.  You need to include in your campaign some more limited form of
enclosed air raft. I can't imagine that an enclosed air raft that has a
more limited range and cannot achieve orbit would need to cost so much;
surely on medium to high TL worlds there are local-travel air rafts that
cost more in the range of 5KCr to 10KCr.

>Today's transportation companies don't use plane because it's fun, they use
>it because they have no choice. This is an expensive way to carry cargo.
>Sea ships and trains are always largely in use because it is cheaper.

It's expensive, but it's *much* faster than it is more expensive -- and
that can often make the difference.  Sea freight and even rail are
_painfully_ slow compared to air freight, and yet are not that much lower
in cost. 


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:28:45 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations

>Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr> said:
>
>How many of you have one?

Why every American owns a personal private jet. :)  jk.

>In the 'Cost of living in T4' article, James Garriss stated that cost of
>life was around 2500Cr for normal living. I'm not sure that even a starship
>pilot could own a private Air raft. How many people own a 400 000$ car.
>Only very rich people could. 

You also have to remember that a pilot has no cost of living.  Or rather
that he is given room and board in addition to his salary, so the lowest
paid pilot gets room and board plus 6,000Cr.

>I like the concept of orbital bases, because it's more fun to dock in a
>space station than in a middle of a town. Sure! All I need is to for some
>argument of viability of orbital stations. Many of you have given some that
>I didn't suspected.

Try this on for size.  Why did cities grow up here in America?  One reason
was for the convenience of living in a city.  The population went with where
the work was, and there was (to some extent) a push by the Government to
move people into the cities.  Now, however, the rich move to the suburbs,
and the really rich move to estates in the country.

Apply that same to Orbital Facilities.  Immagine if you will that the
Government (or some private institution) decides to build an Orbital
Faciliy.  The reason doesn't really matter (it even doesn't matter if it is
an accurate assumption made by the builder, just that it is built).  This
may be the crux of your arguement, but I would remind you about the many
times Governments and Institutions have done something expecting a certain
result and not ending up with that result.  Lest use for this example an
observation facility built in medium orbit for governmental/scientific research.

Now we have an orbital facility with housing for a few scientists and the
tech heads that work on the equipment (both life support and the scientific
equipment).  Lets say that the Government sets up a six month tour of duty
for these guys.  Now, these scientists (or more likely the techies) are
married and are not really anxious to spend all this time away from home.
So the Government has a few options.
   1) Shuttle the people back and forth more often, or
   2) make room for the families on the orbital facility.

What will be cheapest in the long run?  Probably more room for families.  So
the families areas are added on.  Well, now you have not only scientists and
techies, but also housewives (and househusbands) and kids.  The kids will
need schooling, so add a school and teachers.  The housekeepers will want to
cook and clean and will need a place to buy the needed items, so add stores
and store employees.

As the place continues to grow, it would be similar to a city.  When it
became more normal to have people living on the station, it would become
something of a novelty.  Really the only problem is why the station was
built in the first place, and given government/business/institution's
seeming enjoyment of doing things without enough thought, or doing things
with one goal and not being able to accomplish that goal, even that problem
isn't a great one.

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 10:44:49 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] What is Contra-Grav for?

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> asked:
> As I pointed out some time ago...one of the problems with QSDS is that
> contragrav IS built into every hull on the table...

The semi-mythical Next Version of QSDS will include hulls that don't have
contra-grav built into them.  But most will still include CG Lifters.  Why?

> They also include such things as G-comp, etc, buty far and away the biggest
> thing as far as cost and energy consumption is the contra-grav, which
> according to the rules isn't necessary for ships with thrusters for maneuver.

Here's my take on it, and the assumptions that were used to drive the QSDS
hull designs.

1) Thrust Plate maneuver drives provide thrust along a given axis; although
   the technology is radically different from other types of maneuver
   drives, the type of thrust produced and what you can do with that thrust,
   is the same as any other maneuver drive.
   
   In particular, Thrust Plates do NOT nullify gravity's effect on the ship,
   and cannot provide full thrust vectored in any direction.  Just like
   the other maneuver drives, the thrust plates must vector their thrust by
   a gimballed mounting, or by differential thrust.
   

2) Traveller starships typically have deckplans that are laid out in
   complete disregard for the axis of thrust of the ship.  Particularly for
   small civilian designs (such as the PCs typically have).  While I won't
   go into the philosphical question of wether Far Future engineers would
   actually do this, the fact remains that the bulk of the published
   deckplans have the decks parallel to the line of thrust of the ship.

   Even if such a ship were to land on it's drives (and most Traveller ships
   don't appear to be able to do so), the ship's gravity and local vertical
   would be 90 degrees away from the planet's gravity and local vertical.

3) In addition, Traveller starships (of just about any maneuver drive
   technology) regularly land on and take off from worlds where the surface
   gravity is greater than the ship's maneuver drive rating.  Most small
   commercial vessels have 1G drives, and many worlds of size 8+ will have
   surface gravities in excess of 1G.

4) Traveller starships seem to be able to pull cool maneuvers like we've
   seen in the Star Wars movies (particularly in the new Special Edition
   where we see a lot more of the smooth, slow landings and take-offs).

I believe (and I designed QSDS in this belief) that the standard Imperial
solution to all of these problems is to include contra-gravity in all ship
hulls that are intended for planetary landing.


PLANETOID ships are created from hollowed-out planetoids (asteroids).  They
may not skim for fuel, and may not land on any world.  Attempting either
operation will likely destroy the hull.

UNSTREAMLINED ships are built witout regard for atmospheric effects.  Such
ships are generally built at orbital facilities, and are not usually
intended for plantary landings, and have no contra-gravity systems.
UNSTREAMLINED ships may not skim for fuel.  Unstreamlined ships may land on
airless worlds (atmosphere 'trace' or less) if they are equipped with
contra-grav.  Unstreamlined ships witout CG may not land on any world
without risk, unless the designer specifically allows for planetary
landings, and the ship's maneuver rating is greater than the planet's
surface gravity.

STREAMLINED ships have all projections faired over, and have an
aerodynamically "clean" exterior.  Streamlined ships are generally designed
with planetary landings in mind, and are usually eqiupped with CG Lifters.
STREAMLINED ships may skim for fuel and may land on any world (regardless of
atmosphere), if they are equipped with contra-grav.  Streamlined ships without
contra-grav may skim for fuel (but risk damage on a skimming mishap), and may
safely land on worlds where the ship's maneuver rating is greater than the
world's surface gravity, if specifically provided for by the designer.

AIRFRAME ships are designed with aerodynamic lifting and control surfaces,
so that the ship can fly through an atmosphere.  Airframe ships are
generally designed with planetary landings in mind, and are usually equipped
with contra-grav.
AIRFRAME ships may skim for fuel and may safely land on any world (regardless
of atmosphere), if they are equipped with contra-grav.  Airframe ships without
contra-grav may skim for fuel (but risk damage on a skimming mishap), and
may safely land on worlds with an atmosphere ('thin' or better) regardless
of maneuver drive performance.

Attempting an unsafe operation (that is, one that's not listed as safe above)
is a risky and dangerous thing to do.  The referee should call for task rolls
appropriate to the situation (landing an unstreamlined ship in a standard
atmosphere on a calm, clear summer day is easier than trying to bring it down
safely through a hurricane).  Apply common-sense when assesing the results of
a failed roll - severe damage to the ship, injuries to the occupants, or even
destruction of the ship are possible.

Skimming for fuel is a routine operation for ships with contra-grav.  The
referee should generate tasks as appropriate, but usually the worst-case is
that the ship aborts the skimming run.  Ships without contra-grav are at
risk during skimming.  Although the chance of a mishap is the same, the
consequences of a failed run can be more severe.  It is much harder to abort
a bad run, and the ship may suffer damage or even destruction before it is
clear of the gas giant's atmosphere.


If you haven't read DGP's _Starship Operator's Handbook_, then you can skip
over this part.  If you have, here's a reason why I don't believe their
explanation.

In the starship operators' book, DGP's writers proposed that thrust-plate
maneuver drives were capable of vectoring their thrust in any direction,
without having to be gimballed, though thrust in other directions was at
lower efficency.  In addition, they postulated that the drives could be
over-powered by up to 1000% (yes, ten times) for at least long enough to
land the ship.

This raises several questions.  Aside from the obvious question of where the
maneuver drive is going to get the power (most Traveller ships don't have
power plants capable of this kind of output), there are questions of how long
the plates can keep it up.  But the most important question has to do with
combat: in Traveller, evasion is based on the ship's maneuver rating and
G-complensation.  A ship evades by making short burns by the ship's main
drive, so that the ship is Somewhere Else (if only by a few meters) by the
time a shot aimed at it actually arrives.

With DGP's version of the thrust-plates, any ship with a 1G drive could
easily evade at 10Gs (or more likely the limit of it's G-compensation).
This would allow a 1G fat trader to evade shots as easily as a 6G destroyer
(since G-compensation is the limiting factor for how much thrust can be used
for evasion).

Trying to plug this whole opens up the possibility of other problems.
Instead of doing that, I came to the conclusion that most Traveller
starships have contra-gravity lifters installed.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:04:42 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Homo Antiquitus

 
> However, the dates of 300,000 years would mean that they were not Homo
> Sapiens sapiens (modern humans) or Neanderthals, but, Homo Sapiens archaic
> (if they were H. Sapiens at all). This might mean a lot more variation,
> while still allowing interbreeding, than if they were modern humans.
 
True enough, 300k years back is archaic sapiens, unless you buy the
indonesian find that claims to be ~30k for an erectus.

0.3MYA could be neandertal as well (maybe), and the oldest (other
than that new paper at 0.03MYA) erectus is ~0.4MYA, so it's
up for grabs.  Regardless, I be modern humans could have sucessful
offspring with any of the above if they chose to try :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 10:51:24 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re:  Costs of thruster plates

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> Well, I finally got down to checking how the latest revision of the QSDS, the
> increase of thruster prices by a factor 14, affected the economic realities
> of the Traveller universe.

Great!  BTW: the increase of thruster prices is to bring QSDS into line with
SSDS; it was an error on my part that there were so low in the first place
(one of those cubic-meter to displacement-ton conversion errors).

To try and avoid that, I'm going more carefully with QSDS 2.x, doing all my
calculations in cubic meters (converting to dtons for output only), and
cross-checking the results with QSDS 1.5.

> the thruster-equipped ship can deliver cargo at the cost of approx. Cr900
> per ton while the HEPlaR-equipped ship, _despite_ the larger power plant,
> increased fuel consumption and smaller cargo space, can still deliver
> freight for approx. Cr850 per ton.

Actually, that's pretty good!  There's also a trade-off in transit time,
particularly to and from worlds in "deep" gravity wells (large stars, where
the 100-diameter limit is significantly outside the main world's orbit). 
With reasonable HEPlaR fuel volumes, the transit from the jump point to the
world (which can be many AUs) can take longer than the jump took.

> So while thruster plates certainly give a military advantage it is not
> commercially superior to HEPlaR.

I like having the designer have to make a trade-off like this.

> BTW, about fuel prices: I've assumed that both ships have a 3T capacity fuel
> purifier plant and buy unrefined fuel rather than pay the exorbitant prices
> for refined fuel.

That makes a LOT of sense, and I'd recommend it to THUDDD for their
economic calculations.  It makes absolutely no sense to skim for fuel at a
gas giant (particularly if you've got a HEPlaR m-drive), but it makes a lot
of sense to buy unrefined fuel and refine it yourself.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:37:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium

Can someone tell me what "estradition" is? I've head of eXtradition, but
not estradition. <g>

Best,

Chris "Always the Smart-ass"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:42:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr-K'kree Wars

Responding to Michael Barry:

>I have consulted my significant other (professional dietitian with some
>additional knowledge of animal nutrition...household _Shugili_... ;>
>Anyway, she reckons that dogs can live on a vegetarian diet, but cats
>can't; ie cats carnivore, dog omnivore.
>So it is _possible_ for Vargr to live as K'kree subjects, but don't expect
>them to enjoy it. Maybe such Vargr would suffer from psychological
>complaints because of their repressed puppy-nature.

So are you saying that Aslan could _not_ become K'kree subjects? <g>

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:18:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, John P. Raynor wrote:

> > -240	K'kree jump across the Lesser Rift and discover a comparitively large 
> > Vargr state
> > 	(comprising the approx. same area as the 1100 K'kree colonies)
> > -240 to present.  K'kree quickly conquer the area, but are faced with
> > the problem of what to do with all these Vargr subjects. The
> > neighboring Vargr states don't come to their neighbors aid, which
> > confounds the K'kree.
> 
> I suspect "extermination" would adequately sum up the K'kree response to
> subjugated Vargr - yes, given modern biochemistry, the carnivorous Vargr
> could give up eating natural meat, but I think the K'kree would *never*
> try to turn the Vargr into a "subject species" - those big curved teeth
> would just be too darn *creepy* at a visceral level.  I envision the
> K'kree using nasty tailored viruses - orbital bombardment would leave the
> planets uninhabitable, and vast extermination camps would be too time
> consuming and labor intensive.
> 
	Actually, what I have in mind for my mini-campaign is that after 
the K'kree quickly conquered this corner of K'kree space, they started 
exterminating the populations of a couple of worlds. This IMMEDIATELY 
brought revolts in all of the other conquered Vargr worlds that were very 
messy to put down. So thiss made them rather wary of this route.

	As well, even if they did exterminate them, they didn't have 
anyone else to settle these planets. So the K'kree are involved in a 
rather unsuccessful attempt at winning the "hearts and minds" of their 
Vargr subjects (and having about as much success as the Americans did in 
Vietnam).

> I have this strange image of a group of Vargr guerillas initiating new
> members into their organization with a gruesome "feast," with a captured
> K'kree officer or administrator as the guest of honor, roasting on a great
> big spit (the ultimate loyalty-sealing atrocity).

hehehe. I'll have to keep that one in mind...

actually, though, If I remember my V&V book, the Vargr mostly eat raw 
meat. But the idea is still good.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:25:42 -0600 (CST)
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: Vargr-K'kree War

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Chris Griffen wrote:

> Responding to J. Raynor:
> 
> >I think the K'kree would *never*
> >try to turn the Vargr into a "subject species" - those big curved teeth
> >would just be too darn *creepy* at a visceral level.
> 
> Not to mention that the Vargr, having descended from genetically engineered
> Terran canines, probably cannot properly digest much in the way of
> vegetable matter, making the point moot.
> 
> In short, they'd starve first!
> 
	Well, I don't think this is entirely true. If you look at the 
ingredients of your average dog food, actual meat or meat by-products are 
in the minority. AS well, if you start highly processing food, I'm sure 
the Vargr could survive on an all-vegetarian diet.

	Would it be tasty? Ahhh, now thats a different question.

> Anyone ever conduct that great William H. Keith campaign in the fourth
> issue of the late, great MegaTraveller Journal? Nice little mystery there
> about the G'naak.
> 
	Hey! Does anyone have any more information about this? I'm always 
on the lookout for any K'kree information (I kind-of dropped out of 
Traveller in MT times, so I have very little MT material).

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:31:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: Vargr - K'kree wars (was A BIT more on Alien books)

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Mused wrote:

> K.C. Komosky wrote:
> > -400    K'kree discover jump 4 (TL 13)
> 
> I like the fact that K'kree are more advanced than humnaiti at this point
> 

	Well, I figured that Imperial humans (I'm not to sure of the 
Zhodani) had just gone through a 1700 year period of no real 
technological advancement. But that doesn't mean that other races were 
standing still at the time.

	I was particularily found of the idea that although they 
discovered J4 in -400, it took them over 100 years to make up their minds 
that it was safe and to put it into general use.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:33:31 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Entries

- ----------
Mark Clark commented on the Auroro Aglo:

>   This a warship with some troops on it, not a mercenary cruiser.  High
> cost, and troops have to ride down in grave vehicles rather than shuttles.
> Interesting example of the high end, but not practical.

This is the reason that I included a cheaper stripped down variant of the
ship with my design.  However, it seems that my entry became mangled.  The
stripped down version was missing along with the ship's description and some
random thoughts.  My design's USD was also subjected to some reformatting
that oddly included replacing dt, my preferred abbreviation for displacement
ton, with Sdt.  BTW Guy Garrnett's recommended abbreviation for displacement
ton is Std. Personally I don't care for Std because it's a common
abbreviation for "standard" by itself.

It seems that I also made a few mistakes with the design, most notable being
the jump drive.  It seems that I installed a Jump 3 drive instead of a Jump 2
drive as I intended, Doh!  I think I will just leave the ship with a Jump 3
drive even though it carries only 2 parsecs of fuel.  Anyways, the corrected,
and complete, ship is online (http://users.aol.com/ogerdude/mercru.htm).

Since, the ship is capable of making planet fall and has facilities for grav
vehicles I didn't see any reason to have yet a third way to land troops. 
From a role playing point of view I think it's better to have a ship near
that action that just hanging around in orbit.  Anyone remember the CT
adventure "Broadsword," despite the ship being unstreamlined much of the
adventure deals with the ship down on the planet.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1073
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1074



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics...long
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Enough Bill bashing!!!
Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
Re: Homo Antiquitus
RE: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Re: THUDD Entries
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Re: Vargr-K'kree Wars
Re:Terraforming
Re: Orbital stations quesiton
Re: Homo Antiquitus
Re: T4 questions
Re: Homo antiquitus
Re: THUDD Entries
Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
Re: Net software woes
Re: Lost THUDDD Entry
Re: Vargr Diet
Battlerider Troop transports (was Re: THUDD Entries)
Re: a comfortable return to 0.1c rocks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:10:35 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Economics...long

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > The TL4 culture is a completely different story. I would be surprised if
> > the archetypical family in the TL4 area making $2 a day could afford such a
> > car?  It would be useful as all hell to them, despite difficulty
> > maintaining it and fueling it, but they do not have the money to buy it in
> > the first place.  If there is someone at TL4 whose income is derived from
> > several hundred such low wage workers wanted this cheap car, though, they
> > could afford it.
> 
> Strangely, cars sell for a lot less in South America. Several hundred
> dollars will do. That's why they have plants in Brazil producing *new*
> VW "Bugs".

Actually, Brazil stopped producing VW Beetles (called Fuscas) in circa
1988, iirc. They still make them in Mexico, tho'.

As you note below though, it *still* is much more expensive for a
corresponding "average" Brazilian family to afford a brand new car,
since wages are still much lower.

However, since the gap between the poor and the wealthy is so high
(there is virtually no middle class) Auto dealers can still do a brisk
business selling to the elite.

> > Only if the multiple suppliers brings the price down to where an individual
> > can afford it.  I can easily see a one or two tech level difference being
> > worth only 20-50%, and that being taken as profit.
> 
> Depends on *where* the high tech goods are produced. The Brazilian
> factory can produce a new car for a thousand or so because they don't
> have to pay workers $20/hr. (Why do you think so much clothing
> production and "assembly" type work is done in "poor" countries)

That's not the only reason Brazilian cars are so much cheaper. Brazilian
automotive laws are a lot more "lax" than corresponding North American
laws.

About 10 years ago when I was in Brazil, I learned that over 200
modifications had to be made to a car Brazil exports to North America,
the "Fox" (aka Voyage), in order for it to meet American laws. (Side
running lights, for example)

> Until we get *real* automation (or "faber" type technology) this will
> be a factor. Then, the prices will hit a minimum.

Enlighten me, what is this "faber" of which you speak?

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:31:31 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

>Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:26:27 -0500
>From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
>At 08:30 AM 3/12/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>> I use INT as a PC's raw intellegence, perception and quickwitedness. I use
>>> EDU as a different mode of intellegence...the PC's scholarly abilities,
the
>>> ability to handle the sort of skills you learn in a school or from a book.
... (Who said the above - Eris or someone else...)
>>	To evaluate the merchandise to see if it's worth buying:
>>		Routine: EDU/Trader

>Ok, I agree with this.  But I still have one problem with it.  Suppose this
>same character got an advanced degree in computers.

Let me state first off that I am not wedded to the basic 6 stats, I just
like them better than most sets of similar size.  SOC is still the one that
I am most likely to demote, as I like every stat to be good when high, and
bad when low, and there are times where low SOC is better than high SOC.

I make two assumptions about EDU to make the present system work.

1.  There are no stats that are entirely inborn at TL12.  Thus, even though
reasoning and ability to organize are both presently inborn skills, over
the next few centuries, they will find a way to make someone a better
scholar.  Pureed cloned PhD brain, perhaps.  Perhaps special memory training.

2.  The parts of understanding a "thinking" task are how well you reason,
and how many things you know that might apply to the problem.  Skill
implies domain knowledge, INT implies general reasoning ability, and EDU
implies knowing related facts, how to search your references, how to adjust
for the personality of someone else's newsgroup posting, and knowing of the
existence of obscure sources of information that you can use.

As a result, the EDU you get in college is a tremendous boost.  Worth more
than the skills, in many ways, as it _does_ help you in lots of different
ways.  (As a result, I have toned down how much of it you get in college.)
I presume that all characters in Traveller have had a basic reference desk
dumped into their heads if they have a high EDU.  They still do not have
the skill to apply the information, but they do know lots and lots of
details, or how to get those details with the references they have.

>How would you relate that high EDU to [the trading situation]?

The guy who got lots of EDU has many, many facts in his head.  Without
specific trader skill, he has little idea how to apply any of these
factoids.  Raw reasoning might help, but this particular task demands
domain knowledge.

If he has some domain knowledge, he has been taught how to use the data in
his head and in his hand computer properly.  Assume at least a
Trader/Broker-1.

By getting the high EDU in grad school, he had his ability to understand
complicated relationships between data improved.  This lets him draw better
conclusions from the factoids he has.  For an EDU-7, this might be a
newspaper article he read in the financial section.  For an EDU-15, it
might be the week he happened to spend wandering through a trade library on
Sylea.  Why?  Because he was writing accounting software, and happened to
need an obscure face.  While getting it, he stumbled on a lot of general
information about the goods in question, and remembers the general
information, and how to get more.

Not perfect, I know, but it justifies EDU.  I like the idea of splitting
intellect and ability to organize facts in a useful way.  I have met people
who can do one but not the other often enough.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:39:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Enough Bill bashing!!!

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 03/13/97 at 03:14 AM,  Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> said:
> 
> > Really want to bug Billy (Cleon) Gates?  Buy OS/2!
> 
> ...and if you want to use a *really* good operating system USE OS/2!
> 
> Ok, I'll hush now. ;->
> 

	Allright, I've just about had enough. This is a Traveller digest, 
not comp.os.os2, or alt.nuke.bill.gates.with.1c.rocks, or whatever else.

	I understand the problems people are having with MS Mail - 
especially as I had some of those same problems. But when this comes up, 
is you could calmly tell the person with the winmail.dat attachments how 
to solve the problem, and then move on to REAL discussions. Like why is 
it that M0 and FS still haven't shown up in Canda?!?!?!?!

	Oh, I'm not picking on you Eris. There have been WAY too many of 
these kinds of messages filling up my mail box, and they really have no 
place on the TML.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:58:45 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium

At 08:37 AM 3/13/97 -0800, Chris Griffen wrote:
>Can someone tell me what "estradition" is? I've head of eXtradition, but
>not estradition. <g>

It's a slang term for an old method of forcibly removing someone from a
country or planet by first changing their gender by feeding them huge
amounts of estrogen.  The desire to watch a lot of old Tom Cruise movies is
often an odd side-effect of this barbaric treatment.  

:-)

(You want hand-waving pseudo-answers, you've come to the right place. :) )

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:56:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Homo Antiquitus

   Hi.

   Well, I may have been too quick to pick nits with Joseph Chepe
   Lockett.  I looked up the dates for Neandertals, it seems that bones
   as old as 230,000 years old do exist, which means my quote of 100,000
   years was way off.  Any neanderphile referee could somewhat plausibly
   assert that older bones exist, but haven't been found yet, thereby
   closing in on the 300,000-year target date.

   Sorry for being too quick in chiming in.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:57:51 -0800
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] EDU...Finally!

My take on EDU:  It's an abstract stat.  Period.

We could have a system with 20 separate attribute to represent a
character's physical condition (Stamina, Flexibility, Strength, Manual
Dexterity, Coordination, etc, etc) ...
	...but we don't.

You could probably just as easily use the system from AMBER Diceless
RPG:  one of the characters is 1st in EDU, one is 2nd, etc.  But of
course that system doesn't use dice--our intrepid GM would have to
_decide_ what happens off the cuff.

You could replace the Traveller Stats with those from Call of Cthulu.
Or Star Frontiers -- both percentage based, covering many attributes the
Traveller stats don't  (Size, Pow, and in CoC; Logic/Intuition,
Agility/Dexterity, Personality/Leadership)

My personal favorite system is the Albedo Anthropomorphics RPG (like
traveller, but all vargr/aslan).  The stats there are Strength,
Endurance, Manual Dex, Coordination, Reason, Intuition, Drive and
Stability.  Education is merely the sum of your formal training.

Face it, the reason we have the EDU stat is that Mark Miller and company
designed this system in the 70's and it seemed a good idea then.
EDU/SOC would let you have a foppish baronial fool who fail all of his
classes or comes from a backward planet (high SOC, low EDU) or a very
smart hobo (high EDU, low SOC).  However it does seem to assume that
Education is a very formal affair.

here's my Cr.02 :  deal with it.  The system is just that way.

Jeff Cornish,
back to lurk mode

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:34:06 -0500
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: THUDD Entries

On 12 March, Mark Clark wrote in regard to the Warrior-Class THUDD entry:
>Not bad for a cheap design, and it has J3.  Underarmed for ship to ship
>combat, especially with only 3 armor (though that may be a misprint for
>30).  No small craft.  Rather weak overall.

The armor rating listed for the Warrior may be a misunderstanding on my
part of the scale to be used in the THUDD entries. Per Starships, in SSDS
the numerical armor rating is converted to the USP rating code. The Warrior
has a numerical armor value of 80 which converts to a USP rating of 3. (An
USP armor rating of 30 would correspond to a armor numerical value of
15,000+ or 36,270 m^3 of armor on an 8,400 m^3 ship. Did I miss a
redefinition of armor rating or is this a difference between the QSDS and
SSDS designs?

I would normally agree with Mark's general comment "I especially like the
idea of having a meson gun - no missiles to run out of, ...." I debated
between missiles and a meson gun or similar weapon. In the end, my decision
to include missiles was based on a desire to include a non-line-of-sight
weapon in the ship's inventory to provide ground support. This is a
significant advantage both from orbit (when the ship is over the other side
of the planet) and on the ground to fire at an enemy over the ridge.
Constraining a fire support ship to remain at a fixed geosynchronous
position limits its combat options.

Mark did hit on the design goal of the Warrior, cheap (I hate to use the
word "expendable" in front of the troops.) It is intended to land the
troops near the front lines, provide close-in fire support and a mobile
strong point with quarters, hot meals, and medical care (hence the "small"
airframe design), and be ready to transport the entire company off planet
on short notice. I did toy with a "battlerider" design in which the carrier
would remain in orbit while non-starship riders containing the troop's
quarters, some weapons, etc. would land on the planet. I still have some
questions about such designs in T4.

Please keep the comments coming. I feel my merc cruiser design is far from
optimum and plan to revise it as new ideas develop. Maybe we should
consider another THUDD cycle after we have gone through all of the ship
types to take advantage of the suggestions and comments.

Later, John Lambert



   

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:10:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

Hmmm, it might be interesting to use EDU as an attribute on tasks,
but with some weighting based on your childhood TL.  This would be
task dependant, and would just act as an additional DM.

You might say that a given roll on a TL12-related task at
skill+attr. is at -2 DM because the PC's EDU was on a TL10 world.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:11:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: Vargr-K'kree Wars

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Chris Griffen wrote:

> Responding to Michael Barry:
> 
> >I have consulted my significant other (professional dietitian with some
> >additional knowledge of animal nutrition...household _Shugili_... ;>
> >Anyway, she reckons that dogs can live on a vegetarian diet, but cats
> >can't; ie cats carnivore, dog omnivore.
> >So it is _possible_ for Vargr to live as K'kree subjects, but don't expect
> >them to enjoy it. Maybe such Vargr would suffer from psychological
> >complaints because of their repressed puppy-nature.
> 
> So are you saying that Aslan could _not_ become K'kree subjects? <g>
> 

	SURE the Aslan can, and will, become K'kree subjects. Right 
after the 'civilization' of the 4th Imperium is complete, the absorption 
of the Hierate will begin. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.

whoops! I've already said to much...

K.C. Komosky
K'kree double super secret agent extraordinaire
umkomosk@kirur.2000worlds.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:05:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re:Terraforming

>     But back to what started this, Terraformation, colonization and all of
> that.  If I'm the government of the Imperium, which ever incarnation you care
> to choose.  Then I'm going to be VERY interested in anything which saves me
> from having to send colonists across hundreds of parsecs when I can send them
> across five or ten to develop a new world.  The very way Traveller is set up an
> intelligent interstellat government is going to want to develop worlds and
> systems closer to it's core then farther away.  The communications difficulties
> inherient in Jump Drive mandate this really.

	The statement that most interstellar governments are going to 
want to colonize the worlds closest to their homeworld first is very 
true. That leads me to oneof my very small personal beefs with Traveller 
background:

	When looking at a map of the 1st Imperium, why is it the Vilani 
got all the way to the Solomani Rim Sector, but only explored half of 
Corridor, which was RIGHT NEXT DOOR?!?!?



	Well, has anyone ever though of any logical explanation for this 
very bizarre pattern of Vilani settlement?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:21:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations quesiton

   Hi.

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> Think of it more like an international airport. It's surrounded by
> warehouses *and* hotels. 

   Sometimes, certainly. More often not, though.  Usually, transport in
   even a 1G non-starship will be extremely fast (and quite cheap and
   safe to boot), and should make for no problems going to or from
   orbit.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:24:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Homo Antiquitus

	Greetings!


On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Robert Flammang writes:
> >>From: Joseph Chepe Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
> > 
> >>I have some notes about the Acheron of my own design: they're of Neanderthal
> >>heritage (CT Library Data implies not all minor human races are of Homo
> >>sapiens: some are merely Homo).  They spent centuries living underground
> > 
> >    (1) Neadertals were (probably) H. sapiens.  This has recently come
> >    into doubt in some circles though.

	They are H. sapiens, specifically Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.
The argument is whether or not they were a side branch or on the direct
lineage to modern H. sapiens sapiens.

> >    (2) Neanderthals lived 30-100 thousand years ago, long after the
> >    ancients had come and gone. This is much more certain.

	Neanderthals lived between 40-120,000 years ago.  There has been
some arguement over "classic" neanderthals versus "progressive"
neanderthals (which have been reclassified as just archaic H.sapiens, and
in some cases as H. sapiens sapiens.

> >    I recommend H. erectus as an alternative.  Erectus died out about 100
> >    thousand years ago.  There were other human species around at that
> >    time too, I think. (H. afarensis? H. heidelbergensis? H. rudolfus?  I
> >    can't really recall offhand.)

	H. erectus died out about 300,000 years ago.  H. heidelbergensis
was a name for a regional form of H. erectus.  H. rudolfensis was a name
for a *much* earlier form.

> In the Traveller universe the individuals that the Ancients took from Earth
> 300,000 years ago (which I have dubbed Homo Antiquitus - Ancient Man) were 
> Homo Sapiens, regardless of what science may conclude about things in the 
> Real World (tm). This is evident from the fact that Solomani, Vilani, 
> Zhodani, Darrians and numerous other human races are interfertile 300,000
> years later (Though that dosen't necesarily mean that _all_ minor human 
> races are interfertile). If a Solomani is interfertile with 300,000 year
> divergent descendants of Homo Antiquitus like the Darrians and the Vilani
> then surely he would be interfertile with Homo Antiquitus too.

	Archaic Homo sapiens is a good call for a form 300,000 years ago.
The literature pretty much agrees on this, although you get into regional
debates 100,000-200,000 in Africa and Asia concerning the next form.

	But who cares <g>.

	Laterish!

	Ken

- ---
Kenneth J. Winland, M.A.
Department of Anthropology
University of Toronto
Email:kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca

> 
> And this apply even if someone proves conclusively that in reality our
> great^10,000-grandfather wasn't Homo Sap. In the Traveller universe he was.
> 
> 
>       Hans Rancke
> University of Copenhagen
>      rancke@diku.dk
> ------------
>         "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>          events based on the individual situation."
>                                 _76 Patrons_, p. 8
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:29:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 questions

   Hi Nick, it's good to hear from you again.

> From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>

> i) I assume Milieu 0 takes prcedence over T4 basic, and the Core 
> subsector map in the latter is therefore, um, wrong / non-canonical.
> Is this generally accepted?

   I would not be too quick to make that assumption, as the world data
   in the M0 map is clearly broken.  I'm still using the T4 map until I
   hear about a usable replacement.  Not that I'm all that eager for a
   replacement, the T4 Core looks pretty interesting.  What I'd really
   like would be some sort of extension, the adjacent subsectors and
   what-not. 

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:35:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus

	Howdy!


On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can even argue about wether or not two
> individuals are of the same species without involving the definition of
> being of the same species. If we can't use the aforementioned test (at
> least theoretically) what's the point of using the word?

	Zoology and paleontology/physical anthopology use different
criteria for "species".  Is it a theoretical pain in the ass?  Yes...

> (And proves it without applying the test, btw.) So dosen't that mean that we
> are the same species as _H.antiquitus_ still?

	Yes, we are.  We are just a different sub-species, based on
anatomical differences (changes in robusticity, cranial capacity, shoulder
morphology, frontal lobes and speech areas.

> But we wouldn't be able to breed with the species preceding or following us
> since the definition of different species is that they can't breed (well,
> produce fertile offspring, actually). I must be missing some part of your
> argument here.

	Again, paleontology/physical anthropology uses a different set of
criteria for determination of species.  The hominid form seen over the
last 300,000 years or so has been one species, which has included a
variety of different sub-species.  We probably could interbreed with
earlier H. erectus, although we have classified them as a different
species.  Some researchers (Wolpoff? Stringer?  I can't remember.)  put
forth one species designation for all hominid forms from 1.5 mya to today.

> Close, but not close enough to even produce infertile progeny, much less
> fertile.

	Maybe, maybe not....

	Ken

- ---
Kenneth J. Winland, M.A.
University of Toronto
Department of Anthropology
Email:kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:51:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDD Entries

>   It was rather interesting looking at the THUDDD Entries - I did some
> preliminary design work myself, but stopped when work got too hectic.
> A few overall observations follow, with more detailed comments on each
> design.
>
  What happened to my entry - The Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class. It
was posted a bit before the main bunch due to a mail program problem that
Paul had.

Thanks,
James Dempsey
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

  Sorry - must have missed it.  I get the digest and sometimes I don't
read it carefully enough.  If you would be kind enough to send me a copy,
I'll be more than happy to write comments similar to what I did for the
other designs.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:06:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

  A handgun that weighs more than 9 pounds (9.26 pounds to be exact)?
That Hengebar must eat his Wheaties, that's for sure.  My 30-06 hunting
rifle weighs less than that, and it's no lightweight. 

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:04:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Net software woes

> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:23:40 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> 
> >> What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
> >> destroy Redmond, WA ?
> >
> > 20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)
> 
> 20 km at .1c is enough to turn the whole *planet* inside out. Let's not
> get carried away.
> 
> 20 km is 4.2e12 meters^3. Times 5.5 density for rock gives 2.3e13
> tonnes. That gives 1e28 joules for a .1c impact. or 2.5e18 tonnes of
> TNT. or 2.5e9 gigatons of TNT....

Um, dude, we're aiming at Microsoft, here.  What's your point?  Are you
really so squeamish that you balk at reducing Terra to glowing vapor and
drifting rubble to nail Mr. Bill? 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:15:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lost THUDDD Entry

Kerzakhi class mercenary cruiser (SSDS)

Tons: 1,000 std (SL cyl) Volume: 14,000 m^3        Cost: 826.353 (no
vehicles)
Crew: 29                 Passengers Hi/Med: 0/0    Passengers Lo: 0
Cargo: 11 std            Controls: Mil Standard    Tech Level: 12
                           (/bridge /fib)

9  Size

1xMeson Projector (+4) 2/1-0-0-0                 2 Jump Drive
2xLaser Array (+4) 1/4-3-2-1                     2 Manuever
2xMissile Cell (+4) 12/12                        2 Power Plant
  w/ 12 Guided OrbBomb 1/8 3G24                201 Fuel
             - or -                              2 Sandcaster
  w/ 12 Guided DetLaser 1d6/2 6G12               2 Nuclear Damper
                                               112 Meson Screen
15xDocking Slip (10-ton craft)                   0 Black Globe
1xMinimal Hangar (10-ton craft)         A10 P4 J10 Sensors (/EMM)
                                               100 Armor, 33 Structure
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

  Gee, and I thought some of the other designs were excessive!  This is
really a warship with some troops aboard, as I commented about an earlier
design.  With vehicles, it's by far the most expensive, and still offers
only J2 M2.  I think the armor and especially the Meson Screen are way
over the top for the design criteria.  On the other hand, if i could
afford it, as a player character it's the design I'd like to be in in a
fight.  Overall, interesting, but too expensive.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:30:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vargr Diet

  I should point out that it is possible for dogs to live on a vegetarian
diet - I was reading the other day about folks who think their pets
should share their commitment to making the world a better place by not
eating meat, and they have their dogs on a vegi diet.  Apparently it
works, though one has to be careful about the exact dietary content to
make sure there's enough protein and trace minerals available.


Mark Clark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:48:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Battlerider Troop transports (was Re: THUDD Entries)

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, J_Lambert wrote:

> I did toy with a "battlerider" design in which the carrier
> would remain in orbit while non-starship riders containing the troop's
> quarters, some weapons, etc. would land on the planet. I still have some
> questions about such designs in T4.

Ooooh, Interesting.  Modular, flexible, upgradable.

Perhaps the next THUDD list of designs could include an Imperial Marine
Assault Transport of say, 10,000 tons; this would allow a jump tender with
spinal mopunt and defensive weapons and 4-6 "drop Ships" (I hate that
term) or "Landers" of 1000 to 3000 tons and a bunch of 20dt gunships for
escort and fire support.

The thing is, that (for ex) 2000 ton landing ship could either carry an
assault force of 100 Marines behind big armor and heavy weapons or a
resupply force of 200 marines behind light armor and sand, or 1800 tons of
supplies behind no armor or a mobile field hospital with big red crosses
or a support boat with a meson gun and a bunch of guided missiles, 
sensors and jamming suite, another with...well, you get the idea - modular
multipurpose landers for Marine units (or reg. army - we'll let them have
em too).

And, to make us logicians more excited yet, the tender can carry any mix
of these modules, any mix at all.  No more shall the freighters with
supplies be back in the fleet train when they are needed over the planet
*right now*, they will be part of the primary assault package, right in
there with the best defended units.    

Neat idea, no Douglas you can't have one.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:59:54 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: a comfortable return to 0.1c rocks

At 09:49 PM 3/12/97 -0800, Glenn wrote:
>>From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>

>>Best be sure and take out the entire left coast, "It's the Only Way to
>>Be Sure" (tm) !!
>
>This is a little too close to home.  I don't mind you taking out Silicon
Valley and the 
>Peninsula (although it'll cut into my bottom line), but I live in Berkeley,
so watch 
>where you're dropping those things.

Back up!  My mom lives in San Jose, my game store is in Palo Alto, and
Kirsten and my reputations at work are being the undisputed experts at
making pick-ups on the Peninsula!  Not to mention that if you rock the
Peninsula, you'll probably sink SFO and I'll be out of a job!

Now, if we rock the East Bay, we won't have to pay for a new Bay Bridge and
listen to those smug A's fans.. sounds much better to me..

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1074
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1075



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Why people live where they do
Re: Net software woes
(Fwd) In-Comming Transmission: Darrian Trader StarFury
Re: Orbital stations question
Re: FF&S fuel tank statistics
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1068
Re: Net software woes
The Numbers for KBv2.0
Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
Testing KBv2.0
Re: Economics
Re: THUDD Entries
Re: a comfortable return to 0.1c rocks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:22:54 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Why people live where they do

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Yes, things will be different for the Tubers.  Air won't be free, it'll
> have to be produced, but the energy to do it is almost free.  If there are
> astriod belts, resources will be plentiful. They will be able to make sure
> the environment is santitized, clean and controlled.  Why would these
> Tubers *want* to get down onto the dirty, unclean muck of a planet.

My thoughts exactly.  I strongly suspect that interstellar colonization
projects using "slow" multi-generation "space arks" would often end up
producing "space gypsies" - if you've spent you've spent your entire life
aboard a clean, comfortable starship (and so did your parents, and their
parents) why would you want to expose yourself (and your children, and
their children), to the surface of a planet, where it's often either too
cold or too hot, water falls from the sky and gets everything wet, and the
food grows in nasty dirt with bugs and worms in it?  Everything you need
is out there in space.
                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:10:24 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Net software woes

At 11:04 AM 3/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:23:40 PST
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> 
>> >> What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>> >> destroy Redmond, WA ?
>> >
>> > 20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)
>> 
>> 20 km at .1c is enough to turn the whole *planet* inside out. Let's not
>> get carried away.
>> 
>> 20 km is 4.2e12 meters^3. Times 5.5 density for rock gives 2.3e13
>> tonnes. That gives 1e28 joules for a .1c impact. or 2.5e18 tonnes of
>> TNT. or 2.5e9 gigatons of TNT....
>
>Um, dude, we're aiming at Microsoft, here.  What's your point?  Are you
>really so squeamish that you balk at reducing Terra to glowing vapor and
>drifting rubble to nail Mr. Bill? 

can we at least hold off until we see:

a> The end of Babylon 5

b> A well-edited, professionaly designed and layed out Traveller supplement
from IG that has art by someone other than Chris Foss?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:18:55 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: (Fwd) In-Comming Transmission: Darrian Trader StarFury

Mark has asked me to forward this to the list for comment; he is not 
allowed to subscribe to the list due to the volume of e-mail it 
generated. Sad, because he has some good ideas...

This is a rough draft, more a proposal, actually, for a game like 
TCS, but firmly set in the T4 'Economics is Everything' mindset.

Finally, yeah , he knows Merchant Princes was the title of a CT 
suplement.

Bruce Johnson...X-boat Captain, now ;-)

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          "Mark Mueller" <mmuelle@nswc.navy.mil>
Date:          Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:33:32 -0500
To:            johnson@tonic.Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU
Subject:       In-Comming Transmission: Darrian Trader StarFury

Thanks.

Post this on the list for me. Feel free to hack it apart.

       Merchant Prince  v 1.0

In the spirit of Trillion Credit Squadron(TCS), Merchant Prince(MP) is a 
challenge to design a subsector wide merchant company. TCS promotes the 
creation of battle fleets for wargame style combat. MP promotes trade 
and roleplaying. The goal is to setup a subsector wide company to 
support the trading needs of a subsector. This is a rough idea which 
could use the help of the Traveller list. Here are the basic rules:

	1)  Select Traveller Era.  This provides the setting for the 
company. The differences between CT, MT, TNE, and T4 provide a varitity 
of different companies. In MT armored traders would be common during the 
rebellion. In TNE a RCSS merchant would use parts from different traders 
to make a single ship.

	2) Select a Subsector of Operation.  Merchant prince is a local 
trading company. They service many worlds but trade on a sector scale.

	3) Ship Design.  Each would be prince has a trillion credits for 
ship construction. Ship size should be limited to 1000 tons or less. 
There are a number of ship classes need for a successful business.
		Small craft: under 100 tons, for in-system transport of 
goods.
		Traders: to move goods.
		Liners: to move people.
		System defense boats: including patrol cruisers and 
escorts. These vessels are need to safe guard against piracy.
		Raiders:  to disrupt a rival company's shipping. 
		Speculative Trader: ships used to locate new trade 
routes.

	4)  Select a Major Race. A merchant prince must decide who works 
in the company. Vargar traders might prefer raiding. A Zhodani trader on 
the border of imperial space has to over come distrust to succeed.

	5)  Establish Trade Routes. How does you company service the 
subsector trading needs?

	6)  Evaluation. Put two companies in the same subsector and 
compete for trade. Roleplay a ship captain serving the company.

	7)  Benefit.  Once you have an established company you have a 
great tool for use in roleplaying.   

(Plus a quick addendum he sent me today. I was supposed to post this 
yesterday, but I got kaswamped with a ton of stuff, and it got put 
off 'till today. Bruce)

Here are some items for the merchant prince idea:

Ship Type - smuggler: a trader modified to conceal contraband goods
Evaluation -  system customs authority vs smugglers or pirates



:-)

~~~~~~~~~End Transmission~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~Darrian trader StarFury off-line~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:26:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations question

In addition to unstreamlined ships I would imagine that many ships are
simply too *big* to land anywhere except small moons.  Think about trying
to land a 100,000 disp ton bulk cargo carrier or a 100,000 ton destroyer. 
If spherical, the ship would be 140 meters in diameter.  Try getting that
to sit on a landing pad.  Sure, with CG it would be fine, but if the CG
went out it would likely sink pretty deep into the ground.  Also, I would
imagine that actually building such a ship would be *much* easier in
orbit. 

If we assume that most of the Imperium's main trade routes are serviced by
large bulk carriers then orbital docks are necessary, in addition to
highly useful for customs and quarantine purposes. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:16:23 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S fuel tank statistics

Thanks.

Eric Freitas
edf@atlantic.net

- ----------
> From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: FF&S fuel tank statistics
> Date: Tuesday, March 11, 1997 9:28 PM
> 
> At 04:53 pm 03/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >I'm working on a program that aids in the design
> >of starships using FF&S as a basis.  I cannot seem
> >to find any information on the mass, cost and 
> >power requirements to store liquid hydrogen anywhere.
> 
> 	There is no mass, cost or power requirement for fuel tankage, other than
> the (obvious) volume and mass of the fuel itself. Thus, 1,400 cubic
meters
> of liquid hydrogen masses 100 tonnes and requires 1,400 cubic meters of
> volume.
> 
> 	-- The Heretic Famine, of the Four Horsemen of Traveller
> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>    goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
> 
>  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>   enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>   a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:45:23 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1068

>Think about it, folks...stop worrying aboout how many rivets you're using,
>step back and just daydream about it...
>
>That feeling of wonder feels GOOD don't it ;-)

AMEN, Brother Johnson! PASS THE COLLECTION PLATE!

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:39:24 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Net software woes

At 11:04 AM 3/13/97 -0800, Craig Berry wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:23:40 PST
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> 
>> >> What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>> >> destroy Redmond, WA ?
>> >
>> > 20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)
>> 
>> 20 km at .1c is enough to turn the whole *planet* inside out. Let's not
>> get carried away.
>> 
>> 20 km is 4.2e12 meters^3. Times 5.5 density for rock gives 2.3e13
>> tonnes. That gives 1e28 joules for a .1c impact. or 2.5e18 tonnes of
>> TNT. or 2.5e9 gigatons of TNT....
>
>Um, dude, we're aiming at Microsoft, here.  What's your point?  Are you
>really so squeamish that you balk at reducing Terra to glowing vapor and
>drifting rubble to nail Mr. Bill? 

Well at least now we know what happened to cause the scene depicted on the
original "Boston" album. :-)


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:22:07 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: The Numbers for KBv2.0

Allright, guys, I've been busy with work recently but here's the 
numbers for KBv2.0.

This should make it easier for you to decide if you want to change to 
this system or not.

Remember that KBv2.0 is:

		Target Number = (Skill x 3) + Attribute

		Difficulty Codes = 	Easy			Auto/2D
							Average			3D
							Difficult		4D
							Formidable		5D
							Staggering		6D
							Impossible		7D



And now for the numbers...

TN		2D			3D			4D			5D			6D			7D
2		2.7778
3		8.3333		0.463
4		16.667		1.8519		0.0772

5		27.778		4.6296		0.3858		0.0129
6		41.667		9.2593		1.1574		0.0772		0.0021
7		58.333		16.204		2.7006		0.2701		0.015		0.0004

8		72.222		25.926		5.4012		0.7202		0.06		0.0029
9		83.333		37.5		9.7222		1.6204		0.18		0.0129
10		91.667		50			15.895		3.2407		0.4501		0.0429

11		97.222		62.5		23.92		5.8771		0.9902		0.1179
12		100			74.074		33.565		9.7994		1.9676		0.2829
13					83.796		44.367		15.201		3.588		0.6105

14					90.741		55.633		22.145		6.0764		1.206
15					95.37		66.435		30.517		9.6472		2.2087
16					98.148		76.08		39.969		14.463		3.7866

17					99.537		84.105		50			20.585		6.1221
18					100			90.278		60.031		27.939		9.3879
19								94.599		69.483		36.31		13.716

20								97.299		77.855		45.358		19.17
21								98.843		84.799		54.642		25.717
22								99.614		90.201		63.69		33.216

23								99.923		94.123		72.061		41.421
24								100			96.759		79.415		50
25											98.38		85.537		58.579

26											99.28		90.353		66.784
27											99.73		93.924		74.283
28											99.923		96.412		80.83

29											99.987		98.032		86.284
30											100			99.01		90.612
31														99.55		93.878

32														99.82		96.213
33														99.94		97.791
34														99.985		98.794

35														99.998		99.39
36														100			99.717
37																	99.882

38																	99.957
39																	99.987
40																	99.997

41																	100
42																	100




Notes on this chart:

There are two things to remember, as a GM, when using this system.  
First, whenever Spectacular Failure is figured into these numbers, 
they will come down--significantly at the high end.

For example, in KBv1.1, we used the standard T4 method of rolling 
SF--that is SF occurrs whenever two 6's are rolled.

This brought down rolls for Impossible tasks by close to 20%.  If we 
were to use that system here, there would be over a 50% chance that 
SF will be rolled on an Impossible task.  That means that 
over half of all tasks attempted in the Impossible category 
would result in spectacular failure, and the highest 
percentage chance for success would be below 50%.  Clearly, that is 
too high, so we must choose another system.

But the point is that, since we are rolling so many dice, the SF 
percentage (once we nail it down) will reduce the percentage of 
success on this chart--especially at the high end.

Another thing to consider is that this system was designed to 
accomodate skill levels of 0-8 or so.  From my poll, it seems that 
most agree that level 8 is an incredible number.

I believe that the CharGen system in T4 is somewhat broken in that 
characters are able to obtain level 9 skills and above--straight out 
of CharGen.

It is also my belief that Marc realizes this problem and is 
attempting to fix that in the revised edition of T4.

Given this, I have designed KBv2.0 for skill levels 0-8.

Check out Eris' definition of each skill level.  I agree 100% with 
the value Eris has assigned to each skill level.

Any comments are welcome.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:49:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Mike Sellers wrote:

> At 08:37 AM 3/13/97 -0800, Chris Griffen wrote:
> >Can someone tell me what "estradition" is? I've head of eXtradition, but
> >not estradition. <g>
> 
> It's a slang term for an old method of forcibly removing someone from a
> country or planet by first changing their gender by feeding them huge
> amounts of estrogen.  The desire to watch a lot of old Tom Cruise movies is
> often an odd side-effect of this barbaric treatment.  
> 
> :-)

That's funny, I thought it was the barbaric punishment of forcing the
subject to watch endless re-runs of CHiPS....

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:22:08 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Testing KBv2.0

Given my recent post listing the numbers for KBv2.0, let's do a 
little comparision between KBv2.0, KBv1.1, and the standard T4 task 
system.



Plain Jane					Stat-7
							Skill-2


			KBv2.0				KBv1.1				T4
			(TN 13)				(TN 8)				(TN 9)
Easy		100%				94.444%				100%		
Average		83.796%				72.222%				83.333%
Difficult	44.367%				42.593%				57.407%
Formidable	15.201%				25.926%				37.5%
Staggering	3.588%				5.4012%				17.13%
Impossible	0.6105%				0.7202%				9.7222%



Notice that KBv1.1 fixes the problem of Staggering and Impossible 
tasks being too high in T4, and KBv2.0 produces numbers very similiar 
to KBv1.1.





Tricky Dick					Stat-10
							Skill-4


			KBv2.0				KBv1.1				T4
			(TN 22)				(TN 13)				(TN 14)
Easy		100%				100%				100%
Average		100%				100%				100%
Difficult	99.614%				96.296%				99.074%
Formidable	90.201%				83.796%				90.741%
Staggering	63.69%				44.367%				73.457%
Impossible	33.216%				15.201%				55.633%



This is a pretty strong character in my book.  Notice that Tricky 
does well in any system he uses.



Expert Joe					Stat-6
							Skill-5


			KBv2.0				KBv1.1				T4
			(TN 21)				(TN 13)				(TN 11)
Easy		100%				100%				100%
Average		100%				100%				97.222%
Difficult	98.843%				96.296%				82.407%
Formidable	84.799%				83.796%				62.5%
Staggering	54.642%				44.367%				37.809%
Impossible	25.717%				15.201%				23.92%



Both the KB task systems are skill based, and they reward high skill 
level as indicated here.  The T4 task system is attribute based, 
which rewards a high attribute.

There are two problems with an attribute based system.  One is that, 
if you have a high attribute, with an attribute based system, you are 
good in a multitude of tasks.  For instance, if you have a high Dex, 
your character is awesome in shooting a gun, piloting a starship, 
wearing Battle Dress, dancing, riding a horse, driving an air/raft, 
picking a lock, or throwing a dagger.  

All of these are widely varied types of tasks.  I believe that a 
skill based system is a better approach to the task system because it 
allows a character to be good at one of these tasks (because he has a 
high skill level) and not be so good at a different task.

For instance, I think that it is highly possible for a person to be 
very good at driving a car but horrible at dancing.  Skill based 
systems fix this, and that's why both the KB systems are skill based.

The second problem with attribute based systems is that they do not 
give enough credence to a character's expertise.

This comparison of a character with Pilot-4, Dex-6 to a character 
with Pilot-1 and Dex-10 is a bit worn out, but it is still a good 
example of what I'm talking about.  For those of you who haven't seen 
this explanation, I'll repeat it here.

If you use an attribute based system (that is, the attribute is 
weighted more than the skills are in calculating the target number), 
you end up with this problem:

	In T4, your target number for the Pilot-4 character is 10 while your 
target number for the Pilot-1 character is 11--giving him a better 
chance at piloting the ship than the person with much more skill.

Attribute does count for something, and this is true in both the KB 
task systems, but when comparing a skill level 4 character to a skill 
level 1 character, there should be no comparision.  Skill level 4 is 
expert.  Skill level 1 is beginner.

Attributes count, but training and experience count for more.

In CharGen, skill based systems put the emphasis on skill, not 
attributes, like it should be.

With an attribute based system, someone with a level 5 skill is 
someone to cock your eyebrow at.  In a skill based system, someone 
with a level 5 skill is someone to be feared.  



OK, one more character to compare:




Bill the Beginner			Stat-12
							Skill-1


			KBv2.0				KBv1.1				T4
			(TN 15)				(TN 8)				(TN 13)
Easy		100%				94.444%				100%
Average		95.37%				72.222%				100%
Difficult	66.435%				42.593%				96.296%
Formidable	30.517%				25.926%				83.796%
Staggering	9.6472%				5.4012%				62.191%
Impossible	2.2087%				0.7202%				44.367%


The problem with the T4 task system is glaring here--the 
percentages are way too high at the high end.  If you have 
noticed, the KBv2.0 system gives a little higher percentages than 
the KBv1.1 system on most of these examples.  I like this.  I 
always felt that KBv1.1 was a little severe, but there was no easy 
way to fix it.  KBv2.0 gives percentages that are not too high but 
are a little more forgiving than KBv1.1.

After all, we want to make it challanging for our players, but we 
like to see them succeed too.

Also notice that, although KBv2.0 is a skill based system, the 
attribute plays a big part in the target number.  In this example,
Bill will have to reach skill level 4 before his skill will contribute
as much to his success as his natural ability.

Given this, I think that KBv2.0 gives a good balance in the skill vs
attribute debate.



Any comments or further examples about KBv2.0 are welcomed.



Now, it is time to work on a SS/SF system.



Kenneth.
			

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:44:18 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics

 
Scott said: 

 
> Anything that is labor intensive can be done on a low tech planet
> profitably for a time; eventually, it is more cost effective for a high
> tech planet to make something roboticly than to use low tech labor.

	This is a pretty strong statement.  It is certainly not true in 
many cases today and based on the Traveller background, I don't think it 
is true in M:0 either.  If this is true, then the economic justification 
for empire takes a serious blow.  Given the rapidly expanding economy of 
M:0 and the many new opportunities for investment, I think the cost of 
capital (interest rate) will be fairly high.  This implies that 
production technologies which replace capital with labor will be 
favored.  This will be further reinforced by all the clamoring hordes on 
low-tech worlds which want hi-tech goods and will be willing to work for 
far less than the citizens of hi-tech worlds.
	Transport costs will be a moderating factor here, since 
high-bulk, low value cargoes will not be worth transporting.  Note that 
the "canonical" 1000Cr/ton freight cost is much too high.  It is possible 
to design shipping systems that can move carge at less than 500Cr/ton.
 
> >  Hi-tech worlds will 
> >sell their output to whoever can pay the most.  Logically, the people 
> >that will pay the most will be those who can put those goods to the best 
> >use.
> 
> I would argue the point - the people who can pay the most are going to be
> those with the money to spend.  Even though a 1000MW generator might
> revolutionize the industry of a TL6 world, and thus a whole government
> might want to put in a bid, if a Sylean native wants one for his air car
> and can pay for it in a month's wages, the low tech guys might be in trouble.

	This will only happen if 3I capital markets are very screwed up.  
Given the large communication lags, this is actually likely.  
Nevertheless, an enterprising investor would recognize the tremendous 
gains to the TL6 world of having that powerplant and loan them the money 
- -- assuming of course, that they have something to pay him back with.  
Natural resources, land, whatever.
	I think you overestimate the GNP gains from tech advances when 
you suggest that any Sylean could outbid an entire TL6 government.  
However, if you assume that, it actually makes my above scenario even 
more likely since it increases the available pool of lendors.
 
> We both agree that the TL6 government would work hard to match that Sylean.
>  I believe that means that the pocket change of the Sylean is something
> that you need a government for at TL6, while the current rules would
> indicate that the difference in GNP between Sylea and a TL6 world with
> similar pop is only 50%.

	One thing to do is to look at the GNP per capita growth in this 
century, which spans several tech levels.  The U.S. would actually be a 
poor example since it had a great deal of underutilized natural resources 
to fuel growth.  Take a look at a European country, like Germany, 
Britain, or France.  This should give a rough estimate of GNP growth per 
tech level.


> >[business development example - convince locals to buy a factory, and then
> sell them the part, while selling the output to Sylea.]
> 
> Very good example - this is what my merchant characters are trying to do.
> I think this is exactly the correct model for a planet only 1-3 tech levels
> behind.
> 
> If the planet is 6-8 tech levels behind, then you essentially have to bring
> in the plant yourself.  The locals just cannot afford it.  They can provide
> labor, raw materials, and noble titles to the offworlders, and I suspect
> this is what many of the merchants on Sylea are very interested in.

	Certainly.  This also has historical analogues in 19th and early 
20th century economic colonialism.  Oil companies in the Mid-East, United 
Fruit in Central America, etc.  Note that no matter how many TLs behind a 
world is, it can probably still produce useable agricultural exports.
	Lastly, low-tech worlds may trade with mid-tech worlds which trade
with hi-tech worlds.  (Example:  Brazil exports automobiles to Sub-Saharan
Africa.) This does not even mean that low-tech worlds are getting
second-hand goods. The fact that the LT world has exports that _somebody_
values means that their local currency will be convertible into "hard" 
currency.  If the volume of trade is not sufficient to maintain a currency
market then merchants may have to make all the trades themselves. 
Example: Our intrepid free traders sell a Fusion+ unit to LT world and get
local currency in return. They use this currency to buy somethig from LT
world, food, raw materials, consumer goods, etc.  which would not interest
a Sylean, but which is valued on a MT world.  They sell their goods to the
MT world and buy something from them that is valued on Sylea, assembled
hi-tech goods, refined materials, simple consumer goods, etc.  They take
these goods to Sylea where they sell them for Imperial Credits which they
use to buy Fusion+ units....  Voila!  The Invisible Hand (in the form of
the players) has triumphed and a triangular trade is born. 

John

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:05:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: THUDD Entries

Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz> said:
 > "Cobra"
> 	This one was interesting - A large, high performance vessel which
> carries a ton of troops, and their air support too. Problems are the lack
> of cargo space and the necessity of mounting landing operations in
> G-carriers, but other than that I thought it was pretty cool.

	You're not the first person to suggest that making landings in 
g-carriers rather than shuttles is somehow a disadvantage.  I must 
confess that this makes no sense to me.  From my perspective making your 
landing in grav APCs is a _good_ thing since the troops are in several 
armored vehicles rather than one or two unarmored shuttles.  And once you 
hit the ground you can start shooting rather than having to go through 
that vulnerable unloading phase.
	Would someone care to explain to me what I've missed?

Pestilence.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:24:27 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: a comfortable return to 0.1c rocks

At 11:59 AM 3/13/97 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>This is a little too close to home.  I don't mind you taking out Silicon
>Valley and the 
>>Peninsula (although it'll cut into my bottom line), but I live in Berkeley,
>so watch 
>>where you're dropping those things.
>
>Back up!  My mom lives in San Jose, my game store is in Palo Alto, and
>Kirsten and my reputations at work are being the undisputed experts at
>making pick-ups on the Peninsula!  Not to mention that if you rock the
>Peninsula, you'll probably sink SFO and I'll be out of a job!
>
>Now, if we rock the East Bay, we won't have to pay for a new Bay Bridge and
>listen to those smug A's fans.. sounds much better to me..

Ahem.  I live in Pleasanton, and moved down here from near Portland.  I say
we just aim that sucker square at Rainier and let ol' Mother Nature do the
rest of the work for us. 

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1075
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1076



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
Re: Real Men, real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins
Rocking the coast (was The Fifth Horseman)
Re: Why people live where they do
[none]
Re: Net software woes
Re: THUDD Entries
re: Merchant Prince (was re: (Fwd) In-Comming Transmission: Darrian Trader StarFury)
speaking of space stations
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Re: THUDD Entries
Re: The K'kree
Thudd Design a comment/explaination about the Cobra Class
Re: due diligence
Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
MT Journal #4 - Lords of Thunder
[Traveller Answer] SSDS USP Armor Factor
Here's what I want to see.
Astrography: Great Rift, Lesser Rift
Re: Orbital facilities

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:43:52 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

> Muzzle velocity: 1500 m/s
> Muzzle energy: 7942.5 joules
> Req'd energy: 15885 joules

Could someone in the RealWorld(tm) explain to me how you get a muzzle
velocity 300 m/s greater than your average anti-tank rifle using a
barrel that is only 6" long !?!

Me thinks there is something broken here :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:06:41 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <lordbasl@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Real Men, real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins

So spewed Andrew Boulton:
> 
> << >Favorite Traveller Adventure/Product (CT)
> >Loonies: "Chainsaw Combat In Traveller" (Space Gamer article)
> 
> I will find this and IT will be good >>
> 
> Heh, heh, heh...I have that issue :-)

I thought that was one of the funnier TSG bits for Traveller.

I'm rather partial to the fusion-powered chainsaw. Hmmm...now that I
have G3G (Thanks, Greg!), I just had an _evil_ idea; a melee chainsaw!
With Fusion-Plus power, no less....

The mind reels. 

- --Rich Ostorero
lordbasl@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:46:27 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Rocking the coast (was The Fifth Horseman)

>This is a little too close to home.  I don't mind you taking out Silicon
Valley and the 
>Peninsula (although it'll cut into my bottom line), but I live in Berkeley,
so watch 
>where you're dropping those things.
~~~~~~~~~

And that's s'posed to be a deterant? ...  <g>

**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:59:48 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Re: Why people live where they do

Eris the heretic wrote, on the subject of orbitals:

<<Yes, things will be different for the Tubers.  Air won't be free, it'll
have to be produced, but the energy to do it is almost free.  If there are
astriod belts, resources will be plentiful. They will be able to make sure
the environment is santitized, clean and controlled.  Why would these
Tubers *want* to get down onto the dirty, unclean muck of a planet.>>

I recommend checking out Cyberpunk's sourcebook 'Deep Space' for a very
interesting treatment of orbitals and Interplanetary ops. (And very little
cybergear thanks to the radiation.

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:59:39 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: [none]

Craig Berry responded

<<> Yeah, like the GSV "Size Isn't Everything" (which is over 80km long), or
> "Only Slightly Bent", "Ultimate Ship The Second", etc.

Yeah, the Culture's taste in ship names is one of the best things in
'Consider Phlebas' and 'Use of Weapons' (both are must-reads, btw). >>

'Use of Weapons' was the first book in a long time that I got to the end,
thought 'huh?', and then re-read it to see if I'd been thick and missed it.
I liked 'Excession' for the view on the way the AI Minds in the ships
behave. Sure beat the Kinuir's poxy little AI!

Also liked the way that it posed the 'what happens when the Culture meets
something as more advanced to them, as they are to us' question. His books
seem to be classic in style, but very well written!

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:59:44 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Re: Net software woes

>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>Charles Pratt wrote:
>
>On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Craig Berry wrote:
>
>> > What size of a relativistic 0.1 c rock do you think we need to use to
>> > destroy Redmond, WA ?
>>
>> 20 km at minimum.  I want to slam MS HQ halfway into the mantle. :)
>
><De-lurk>
>
>Being an inhabitant of neighboring Seattle, I must strenuously object to
>the usage of such imprecise weaponry in the demolition of Microsoft.
>Perhaps a more "surgical" strike is in order---like cutting off Mr. Gates
>head?
>
><Re-lurk>

        Well, let's not forget to pound an ash stake through his heart
(hitting such a small target might prove difficult though) and stuffing his
mouth full of garlic, before we either immerse the coffin in running water
or bury it at midnight at a crossroads...  either way, we'd still want to
not just sprinkle but douse the remains with holy water, and stuff a
consecrated Host down the front of his shorts...>>

Lovely images! ;-) as a Mac owner I have to agree!! But hey, this is
Traveller, (?!), I vote for a precision Meson Gun strike (a la Knightfall)
*or* some recovered TL>15 disintegrators. Or a jump projector?

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:09:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDD Entries

> From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
> 
> On 12 March, Mark Clark wrote in regard to the Warrior-Class THUDD entry:
> >Not bad for a cheap design, and it has J3.  Underarmed for ship to ship
> >combat, especially with only 3 armor (though that may be a misprint for
> >30).  No small craft.  Rather weak overall.
> 
> The armor rating listed for the Warrior may be a misunderstanding on my
> part of the scale to be used in the THUDD entries. Per Starships, in SSDS
> the numerical armor rating is converted to the USP rating code. The Warrior
> has a numerical armor value of 80 which converts to a USP rating of 3. (An
> USP armor rating of 30 would correspond to a armor numerical value of
> 15,000+ or 36,270 m^3 of armor on an 8,400 m^3 ship. Did I miss a
> redefinition of armor rating or is this a difference between the QSDS and
> SSDS designs?

  Looks like it - the QSDS hull list gives the numerical armor rating, not
the USP code.  If your ship has an armor of 80, well, that's pretty well
armored by QSDS standards - most hulls have on 10 or 20 armor, and the max
is 60 (for an 800T sphere, by the way).  I'd call it over-armored by the
standards of the CT Happy Fun Ball. 
 
> I would normally agree with Mark's general comment "I especially like the
> idea of having a meson gun - no missiles to run out of, ...." I debated
> between missiles and a meson gun or similar weapon. In the end, my decision
> to include missiles was based on a desire to include a non-line-of-sight
> weapon in the ship's inventory to provide ground support. This is a
> significant advantage both from orbit (when the ship is over the other side
> of the planet) and on the ground to fire at an enemy over the ridge.
> Constraining a fire support ship to remain at a fixed geosynchronous
> position limits its combat options.

  Well, Meson guns can fire _through_ planets, so no need to be in geo
orbit.  You just need local forward observers to guide onto target.  Meson
guns are inhibited by screens, but since Mercenary cruisers are not likely
to take on TL12 opponents, that's not a big issue.

> Mark did hit on the design goal of the Warrior, cheap (I hate to use the
> word "expendable" in front of the troops.) It is intended to land the
> troops near the front lines, provide close-in fire support and a mobile
> strong point with quarters, hot meals, and medical care (hence the "small"
> airframe design), and be ready to transport the entire company off planet
> on short notice.

  Nice concept, but I'm just uncomfortable with something that expensive
on the ground.  The big money is in the hull, drives, powerplant, and
electronics - why put that in harms way?   Better to shuttle the troops
down in something less expensive, and keep the ship upstairs where it
might be safer (though I'd be willing to entertain arguements about that).

> I did toy with a "battlerider" design in which the carrier
> would remain in orbit while non-starship riders containing the troop's
> quarters, some weapons, etc. would land on the planet. I still have some
> questions about such designs in T4.

  This is really what the CT Happy Fun Ball is all about - those modular
cutters could carry some additional modules as compared to the ones in
Starships, including living quarters and such.  

> Please keep the comments coming. I feel my merc cruiser design is far from
> optimum and plan to revise it as new ideas develop. Maybe we should
> consider another THUDD cycle after we have gone through all of the ship
> types to take advantage of the suggestions and comments.

  Sounds good to me - I for one would like to chat more about what exactly
the weaponry a mercenary cruiser should have.  Comments, anyone?

> From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
> Subject: Battlerider Troop transports (was Re: THUDD Entries)
> 
> On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, J_Lambert wrote:
> 
> > I did toy with a "battlerider" design in which the carrier
> > would remain in orbit while non-starship riders containing the troop's
> > quarters, some weapons, etc. would land on the planet. I still have some
> > questions about such designs in T4.
> 
> Ooooh, Interesting.  Modular, flexible, upgradable.
> 
> Perhaps the next THUDD list of designs could include an Imperial Marine
> Assault Transport of say, 10,000 tons; this would allow a jump tender with
> spinal mopunt and defensive weapons and 4-6 "drop Ships" (I hate that
> term) or "Landers" of 1000 to 3000 tons and a bunch of 20dt gunships for
> escort and fire support.

  Nice idea, but it would leave us QSDS users out in the cold.  How about
a budget thing, along Trillion Credit Squadron lines, with so much money
and so many troops to deliver, and one could then put a group of ships
together.  I'd prefer to put this off, though - THUDDD still has plety of
classic ships to redesign.
 
__________________________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:11:16 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Merchant Prince (was re: (Fwd) In-Comming Transmission: Darrian Trader StarFury)

>In the spirit of Trillion Credit Squadron(TCS), Merchant Prince(MP) is a 
>challenge to design a subsector wide merchant company.

This is an *excellent* idea. In fact, something similar (but somewhat
smaller in scope) was suggested in gdw-beta a while ago - a competetion to
design the cheapest way to haul (say) 10,000 T/week between two systems.

In fact, I would suggest starting out with something smaller on that sort
of scale, rather than a whole subsector...for either case, we'd need
good rules for upkeep costs, crew salaries, how much vacation your
crew *really* needs, how much maintenance your jump drive *really* needs,
and of course realistic quantities of goods and prices. Also rules for
frequencies of disasters (major or minor misjumps, piracy, engine failure) so
one can evaluate how cost-effective things like backup fuel tanks and
weapons are...) 

This would help to answer questions like the cost-effectiveness of space 
stations for cargo transhipment...and the cost-effectiveness of some of
the really exotic designs proposed on gdw-beta, like container ships, or
jump-drive-only ships, and transhipment stations at the 100-diameter limit...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:17:19 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: speaking of space stations

Put me down in the "space stations aren't much use" category.

For cargo transhipment, there's no particular need for a space station, even
for unstreamlined ships. It's not like the cargo hauler has to wait around
a long time for a shuttle - cargo haulers are big and take weeks to travel,
shuttles are small and take hours; when a jump-but-not-landing-capable
shuttles will leave from and return directly to the planet. (Think of a
big, busy modern port like Hong Kong. Most big container ships can't dock
right at a wharf - due to lack of wharf space and (to a lesser extent) depth
of water. Container ships in Hong Kong anchor out in the harbour and are
unloaded by barges. Building a space station to unload cargo makes as much
sense as building a giant floating platform in the middle of Hong Kong harbour
would - not much.)

For manufacturing/industry/lifestyle - power is cheap in a space station,
but it's just as cheap on the ground; fusion (let alone fusion+) is much
cheaper than solar power. Resources are plentiful in the asteroid belt,
but it's cheap to transport them down to the ground - much cheaper than
doing construction in zero-G and vacuum.

The technological assumptions of the Traveller universe - extremely
cheap power, and extremely cheap access to orbit with reactionless drives - 
are about the worst possible case for space stations, except for really
specialized cases like (small) research stations, sensor platforms, and
weapons platforms.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:30:04 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

Just like Int theoretically represents IQ, Edu theoretically represents a
level of school achieved (but not necessarily a diploma fromt hat school).
Thus, someone with Edu 4 has finished grade school (but may not necessarily
have a "certificate of completion" so commonly given out. On the other hand,
it is possible for someone to have a BA and not have the corresponding Edu A.

I'm of a mind to say this for chargen. If you attend (say) college and
graduate, you get Edu A if you don't have it or better already.


Mental Characteristic Equivalents
Value	Int	Edu	
0		
1		
2		Illiterate
3		Reading
4		Grade School
5		
6	Average	
7	Average	High School
8	Average	
9	Above Average	Associate
A	Superior	Bachelors
B	Very Superior	
C	Gifted	Masters
D	Genius	
E		Doctorate
F		

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:26:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDD Entries

> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:34:06 -0500
> From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
> 
> I would normally agree with Mark's general comment "I especially like the
> idea of having a meson gun - no missiles to run out of, ...." I debated
> between missiles and a meson gun or similar weapon. In the end, my decision
> to include missiles was based on a desire to include a non-line-of-sight
> weapon in the ship's inventory to provide ground support. This is a
> significant advantage both from orbit (when the ship is over the other side
> of the planet) and on the ground to fire at an enemy over the ridge.
> Constraining a fire support ship to remain at a fixed geosynchronous
> position limits its combat options.

In my view of the world, one of the primary advantages of a meson gun is
that it *is* an indirect-fire (non-LOS) weapon.  The same trick that lets
meson guns fire through armor, or from buried deep sites on a planet,
allows them to fire through bunkers, mountains, or even a significant
chunk of a planet...perhaps *all* of one, based on some canon statements
about deep-meson sites. 

Meson guns are also the ideal space/ground interface weapon for another
reason.  Lasers get badly diffused by any significant stretch of
atmosphere; PA guns of the space type (N-PAWS) can't fire effectively in
atmosphere, and of the atmospheric type (C-PAWS) can't fire effectively in
space.  Missiles take time to reach the target, give warning of their
approach, and can be shot down by point-defense systems.  Only meson guns
allow instantenous attacks, counterable by only one high-tech defensive
technology (not widely deployed in typical lowish-tech mercenary
environments), and unaffected by atmosphere between you and the target. 

Additionally and uniquely, meson guns are non-LOS and can fire through
solid materials to hit their target.  That's why deep meson sites are the
ideal planetary defense, and ship-born meson guns the ideal planetary
attack weapon.

Except, perhaps, for near-c rocks.

[Craig ducks for cover and activates both the meson and fast-rock
screens...]

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:26:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: The K'kree

K.C. Komosky wrote:

>	Hey! Does anyone have any more information about this? I'm always
>on the lookout for any K'kree information (I kind-of dropped out of
>Traveller in MT times, so I have very little MT material).

I have a copy but I don't own the rights, so I can't legally photocopy it.
Roger Sanger (rodge@cyberspace.com), current owner of the DGP material,
would be the guy. He's apparently trying to get approval from IG to put all
the old stuff on CD ROM, so if they ever stop quibbling, you may eventually
be able to get a copy of the MTJ #4 campaign setting on CD.

It's really great. Happens in Gateway sector, a remote sector right between
the 3rd Imperium and the Two Thousand Worlds.

I'd plan to conduct a campaign there after my epic Regency mercenary
campaign if I wasn't already committed to do something in the Solomani Rim
first! (Love those Terra-based campaigns!)

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:41:46 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Thudd Design a comment/explaination about the Cobra Class

*** Blush *** We Thank you for your comments and the "interesting Design"
comment Mark, if more cargo space is required, just cut down/out the 30
tons of recreational/briefing area if you add that in as cargo it gives you
39.1 tons of cargo, but i thought that the Week in JSpace would be
reeeeeeeeeal boring for the troops, (Take it from me, i spent 5.5 years as
a squadie, hurry up and wait is the Motto of her majesties forces, and
probably all forces world wide)

The Cobra has 6 subcraft, 2 fighters and 4 apc's the Fun ball only had 5,
as for The Mavericks being G-Carriers, i tried to make them a hell of a lot
better than that, G-carriers only have armour of 5 and arnt much more than
lightly armed and armoured air rafts (according to T4 Rule book), where as
the Mavericks have an overall aromour class of 11.9 with a frontal of 23
and sides and rear of 17 are capable of 9G accellaration (Design Flaw as
the Frame is only rated to 6G, so a limiter is installed) with 3G
Compensators and RF11 Laser turret, i had in mind something like a cross
between a light tank and an APC that can attain orbit and reentry,
transport 20 troops and then give them fire support on the ground.

At this point i would like to thank my co designer Dave Marsden for keeping
the price down, (If i got my way it would probably have been a 1200 ton
battle wagon with lots of troops and totally over the top) i went big, he
went small and we compromised, and came up with not to bad a design, i
should also point out this is only the second ship we have designed, the
first was the Ridcully Far Trader which was a late design and so didn't get
voted on, but i am still interested in anybodies comments on it, so that i
can improve the design or fix  any problems in my understanding of how QSDS
1.5.

As for Voting i'm going to abstain on voting on design comps untill i feel
confident on what im doing.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:59:53 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: due diligence

In a message dated 97-03-13 02:00:00 EST, you write:

> 
>  It could have been an innocent blunder -- probably was -- but it could
have 
> been avoided 
>  by one minute's due diligence.  If he'd looked at one message to the list,

> let alone one 
>  digest, he would've realized that his advertisement was inappropriate.  
>  
>  
Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:02:43 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

Dr. Mark Clark wrote:

>
>  A handgun that weighs more than 9 pounds (9.26 pounds to be exact)?
>That Hengebar must eat his Wheaties, that's for sure.  My 30-06 hunting
>rifle weighs less than that, and it's no lightweight.

	Well, I was basically aiming for something that'd be the Gauss
equivalent of a .50 cal Desert Eagle with the 14" barrel, with a laser
sight and scope for good measure; something so ludicrously over the top
that no self-respecting handgunner could look at without giggling, but that
the guys who have certain, er, insecurities about some of their, um,
endowments would love...  and the fact that it'd look like a prop out of a
bad SF movie doesn't hurt either :).

	And besides, it was a Spofulam product... what do you expect?
Taste, restraint, and sanity :)?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:25:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, James Lindsay wrote:

> > Muzzle velocity: 1500 m/s
> > Muzzle energy: 7942.5 joules
> > Req'd energy: 15885 joules
> 
> Could someone in the RealWorld(tm) explain to me how you get a muzzle
> velocity 300 m/s greater than your average anti-tank rifle using a
> barrel that is only 6" long !?!
> 
> Me thinks there is something broken here :)
> 

	Yes, FFS! The weapons designed system has long been recognized to
be very broken at the extreme ends of the scale, and as usual for a FSH
design, this one's off the deep end ;-)

	I took a quick hack at designing this in 3G3, (btw I HIGHLY
recommend this one...I bought the Adobe Acrobat version with the
spreadsheets...$12.00, and I had the stuff in my hands almost
instantly...If I could have ALL my gaming supplements in this fashion I
could have my library at home and here at work. I REALLY want that
Traveller CD IG's rumored to be working on.) and ended up with an even
heavier weapon, at 7.5 kg, over double the barrel length, at 37 cm.

I haven't played with a Gauss design in quite a while (my last effort ws a
TL-15 Aslan specialty weapon, based on the thing that the alien had in
Predator)

 BTW Greg Porter has an illuminating discussion of railguns (what he
calls gauss weapons) in 3G3, in the part called 'Past the limits'
where he talks about the design of a railgun to put a 1m diameter round
into orbit, needing 119,000 G of acceleration.

0 to 1500 m/s in a distance of .15 m is roughly 10,000 gee of
acceleration.

this is an absurd gun by ANY stretch of the imagination, and a worthy (?)
addition to the FSH catalog.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:36:06 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: MT Journal #4 - Lords of Thunder

A couple people have mentioned MegaTraveller Journal #4 as being an 
EXCELLENT source of information about the K'kree. However, I have never 
seen this product in my entire life, so I wouldn't know.

Does anyone:

A: have a copy of this for sale
B: know of a store with a copy for sale,
or even
C: be willing to photocopy it for me

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!

you can reply to me at
K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 18:27:25 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] SSDS USP Armor Factor

J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com> wrote:
> The armor rating listed for the Warrior may be a misunderstanding on my
> part of the scale to be used in the THUDD entries.

Nope.  It's SSDS errata.

> Per Starships, in SSDS the numerical armor rating is converted to the USP
> rating code. The Warrior has a numerical armor value of 80 which converts
> to a USP rating of 3. [...]  Did I miss a redefinition of armor rating or
> is this a difference between the QSDS and SSDS designs?

It's a part of the conversion that's missing from SSDS.  The T4 "basic"
starship combat system wants starship armor values that are equal to the
SSDS conversion chart value TIMES TEN.  QSDS pre-computes this for you; in
SSDS the relevant sentance is missing, unfortunately.

The correct computation is:
1) Convert SSDS armor value to USP using the table
2) Multiply by 10 to produce the final Armor rating.

Example: The Warrior has a SSDS armor value of 80, which converts to a USP
         rating of 3 (by the table).  Multiply by 10, for a final rating of
         30.  This is the value you put in the final USP listing for Armor.

In the T4 "basic" starship combat system, a ship with an armor value of 3
won't last very long at all - even a thin-skinned Free Trader has AV 10.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:42:33 +0000
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Here's what I want to see.

Traveller always had a couple of failings, and I would love to see 
them addressed in the latest version.

1. Not being able to play in the services, why characters must be 
retired hasbeens has never really made sense to me.
2. Traveller should be more flexible allowing players to make up 
their own galaxy to play in. Yes I know you can do this, but little 
to no support exists, at least in the older versions.
3. Personally I'd like to see more stuff about the solomani, instead 
of the viliani. Hey, I'm prejudice I prefer earthers.


Vance Scott

Vanquisher of all foes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:59:10 -0400
From: Christian Razukas <chrisraz@clark.net>
Subject: Astrography: Great Rift, Lesser Rift

How big are the aforemtntioned rifts?  From the map of the Imperuim in CT
Supplement 11: Library Data, it seems they are approximately one sector
"wide" and extend off the map to spinward (GR) and trailing (LR).

Do the rifts "expand" and cover more than one sector as you leave the map?

Is known space surrounded by rifts to spinward and trailing, leaving only
J-4, J-5, or J-6 routes and calibration points (a la The Regency
Sourcebook) as the only way through them?

Are the rifts isolated pockets, surmountable if you are willing to take the
"long way around" (e.g. the corridor to the Spinward Marches)?

Does the Atlas of the Imperium offer a definitive answer?  Can anyone
please advise?  Any thoughts?

Incidentally, the situation to coreward and rimward looks good for future
travel: the Zhodani have travelled 5,000 parsecs coreward and the Solomani
have travelled 3,000 parsecs rimward to the Persus and Auriga spiral arms.
(Sources are the respective alien modules).

As the poet said, "All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by."  I
just want to know if there's a star to jump to.  Thanks!

The Cosine of the Beast: .99984437405678

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:15:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Orbital facilities

Responding to John R. Snead:

>In addition to unstreamlined ships I would imagine that many ships are
>simply too *big* to land anywhere except small moons.  Think about trying
>to land a 100,000 disp ton bulk cargo carrier or a 100,000 ton destroyer.
>If spherical, the ship would be 140 meters in diameter.  Try getting that
>to sit on a landing pad.  Sure, with CG it would be fine, but if the CG
>went out it would likely sink pretty deep into the ground.  Also, I would
>imagine that actually building such a ship would be *much* easier in
>orbit.

I was talking with a fellow Traveller player last night about the recent
orbital facility argument occuring on the TML and he came up with the same
beef.

Can you imagine trying to service a 500,000-ton Tigress-class dreadnaught
at a planetary facility! Talk about a total eclipse of the sun!

Though a half-million-ton ship is an extreme case, the same could be said
for just about every type of ship of 50,000 tons and up. It would be a
serious cause of danger to all other starship, spaceship and air traffic
when just _one_ of these behemoths tried to land or just hover for service
on a planet.

And that's just the air-traffic control nightmare!

What about the cost of streamlining all these ships. When you're talking
50,000-ton plus, you're talking millions, if not billions of credits to
streamline the ship. This would cause a major political stir for a large
interstellar governing body to try to justify the fiscal impact of
constructing of a large fleet of streamlined ships when they could have
saved billions of credits by building an orbital facility.

So, at the very least, orbital naval installations are justified since most
ships beyond 50,000 tons are of military nature.

I think enough arguments have been made for other advantages gleaned from
orbital facilities, so I won't rehash old ground.

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1076
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 14 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1077



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Estradition
Re: Homo Antiquitus 
Re: THUDD Entries
Re: Enough Bill bashing!!!
Re: Fusion, again.
Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)
Re: Vargr-K'kree War
Re: Enough Bill bashing!!!
"estradition"
Re: Net software woes
Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
Re: Lost THUDDD Entry
Re: [Traveller Answer] What is Contra-Grav for?
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Re: THUDD entries
Re: THUDD Entries - Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class
Gram Fleet Admiral Njrdinskiold (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:19:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Estradition

> It's a slang term for an old method of forcibly removing someone from a
> country or planet by first changing their gender by feeding them huge
> amounts of estrogen.  The desire to watch a lot of old Tom Cruise movies is
> often an odd side-effect of this barbaric treatment.

Ah, yes. The "sister" program to the old testostradition treatments that
SuSAG had been working on in the late 1070s.

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:45:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Homo Antiquitus 

Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:

 >Hi.
   
>Well, I may have been too quick to pick nits with Joseph Chepe
>Lockett.  I looked up the dates for Neandertals, it seems that bones
>as old as 230,000 years old do exist, which means my quote of 100,000
>years was way off.  Any neanderphile referee could somewhat plausibly
 >assert that older bones exist, but haven't been found yet, thereby
>closing in on the 300,000-year target date.
   
Either way, you could have Neanderthals as a minor race since they evolved
out of the same archaic Homo sapiens we did.  I would expect Neanderthals,
Homo Erectus, and various other odd genus Homo variants (like the Suerrat)
to be quite common among the minor human races.  Having them all look just
like modern Homo sapiens is the only answer which seems silly to me. 

The fun thing is that almost all of the could probably interbreed, you
could get some pretty strange looking kids on some worlds.  I would
imagine that a few of them would be too different to interbreed
(especially the ones geneered by the Ancients). These variants might well
be considered much more alien by folks in the Imperium, since they are
clearly not human. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:45:48 -0800 (PST)
From: " Paul  Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: THUDD Entries

John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> wrote:

>
>You're not the first person to suggest that making landings in 
>g-carriers rather than shuttles is somehow a disadvantage.  I must 
>confess that this makes no sense to me.  From my perspective making your 
>landing in grav APCs is a _good_ thing since the troops are in several 
>armored vehicles rather than one or two unarmored shuttles.  And once you 
>hit the ground you can start shooting rather than having to go through 
>that vulnerable unloading phase.
>Would someone care to explain to me what I've missed?
>
>Pestilence.
>

There are several reasons why you might want to use shuttles instead of APCs. 
The most important is that a shuttle is probably thicker skinned than most
APCs.

You could use both, however, to create some new landing tactics.  An operation
that this type of ship/unit would be used for would primarily be a quick strike
and leave type mission.  You want to get in close to your target area as soon
as possible.  Use the APCs/ACVs to secure an area, then unload additional men
and equipment from the shuttles.

The second reason is that you might not want to wait until you are in orbit to
start your mission.  You could use the shuttles as soon as you leave jump
space.  Your grav APCs/ACVs would be useless until you were in orbit.  The
mercenary cruiser, generally slower than the cutters, would follow along behind
and provide support when it arrived in orbit.  You could still unload the
APCs/ACVs from the cutters when they arrived in orbit if you wanted to use the
above tactic.

Fighter support would also be a big plus for any type of quick strike mission.

PZ

- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 01:21:46 +0000
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Enough Bill bashing!!!

K.C. Komosky wrote:
> (Editorial shears shamelessly wielded)
> and then move on to REAL discussions. Like why is it that M0 and FS still haven't > shown up in Canda?!?!?!?!
> 
- --One could say-because they`re not much cop.Indeed,one could,I just did
:)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:40:00 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion, again.

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
>A ship evades by making short burns by the ship's main
>drive, so that the ship is Somewhere Else (if only by a few meters) by t=
he
>time a shot aimed at it actually arrives.

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> So while thruster plates certainly give a military advantage it is not
> commercially superior to HEPlaR.

Question: Can someone please provide a reason why fusion drives are not
standard for military ships? =20

Fusion Drives seem to offer greater max g for evasion ("Pilot, give me a
8 second 15 g burn so the beams will miss") and lower power/space
requirements (I think, don=92t have the source materials to check).  Sure=
,
they are dangerous around planets and population centers, but this is
the military.  They don=92t care about that, or the cost of maintenance,
etc, etc=85 IF it will enable them to win the BIG ONE.  Look at the ships
today -- it is not safe, or cheap, to build nuclear powered ships.  But
for tactical or strategic reasons many were built.   And only one (I
think) nuclear powered merchant ship ever built!

I apologize if this has been rehashed over and over.  But I have an old
race that is being reincarnated and all of their ships are fusion drive=85
do I need to change them, or are the ships just more effective.=20

Also I have always described to my players that one of the reasons Earth
was able to defeat 1I (in addition to research, better jump drives, etc)
was the Imperiums use of thruster Vs fusion. The old comfortable
imperium keep using the "safe" and more "effective" thrusters while the
Terrens went all out. Out maneuvered, out jumped, out gunned, etc.=20

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:41:51 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts (was: Re: Jiu-Jitsu)

Harald Budschedl wrote:
> It's not that easy. I.e. in Ninjutsu, you normally learn TAIJUTSU
> (weaponless fight, with boxing, throwing, strangling, right movement,
> distance, timing and many more things in it)
> Then you learn how to use weapons, and in fact, if your taijutsu is good
> enough, everything can become a weapon.
> 
> But how would you express this as skills in traveller terms?

clever player with a decent skill level (I, for one, am sick of "I swing at him", I actually 
increase the oppnent's abilities every time I hear this. A GM is too busy to come up with 
clever ways of attacking but I want the players to roleplay everything)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:54:18 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr-K'kree War

K.C. Komosky wrote:
>         Hey! Does anyone have any more information about this? I'm always
> on the lookout for any K'kree information (I kind-of dropped out of
> Traveller in MT times, so I have very little MT material).

it was about 50+ pages of material on a K'kree offshoot empire. Itt revealed who the 
legendary G'naak were, and a few details more about the horsies themselves

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:56:02 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Enough Bill bashing!!!

K.C. Komosky wrote:
>         I understand the problems people are having with MS Mail -
> especially as I had some of those same problems. But when this comes up,
> is you could calmly tell the person with the winmail.dat attachments how
> to solve the problem, and then move on to REAL discussions. Like why is
> it that M0 and FS still haven't shown up in Canda?!?!?!?!

That's too bad. Here in the "ASSHOLE OF CANADA" we have had them for a few weeks 
(HA HA). Maybe you should talk to your US embassy there in Canda

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:21:16 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: "estradition"

A certain wiseass spewed:

>From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
>Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
>
>Can someone tell me what "estradition" is? I've head of eXtradition, but
>not estradition. <g>

Consonant shift in the next few thousand years will elide the "x" following an initial 
"e" to "s" in English; this will be accelerated by the contacts between English and 
Vilani.  So we'll be saying "essept" for "except", "estrodinry" for "extraordinary", and 
"estradite" for "extradite".  My subject header was simply ahead of its time.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:16:58 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Net software woes

>From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
>
>It'll never work, remember he's got lawyers who can stop rocks at 30K km,
>and failing that will buy the rights for rock dropping from under you.

PRESS RELEASE FROM MICROSOFT, LIC:

Bill hault-Gates LXVII announced today that Microsoft, LIC, the well-known diversified 
conglomerate, had completed the acquisition of all asteroids in every star system in Sol 
subsector.  "We've been concerned about those asteroids for almost 3,000 years, since 
the company's ancient history, when my eponymous great-ancestor was still limiting the 
company to making computers and controlling all computer networks.  Since our 
diversification into all areas of commerce, government, and religion, and our extensive 
development off-world throughout known space, we have been steadily acquiring all 
asteroids that could potentially intersect with Terra -- sometimes at the rate of one 
rock at a time.  We're ready to breathe a great sigh of relief that we now have them 
all."

hault-Gates would neither confirm nor deny rumors that Microsoft was negotiating with 
the Imperial government to purchase Luna.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:21:45 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

James Lindsay wrote:

>
>> Muzzle velocity: 1500 m/s
>> Muzzle energy: 7942.5 joules
>> Req'd energy: 15885 joules
>
>Could someone in the RealWorld(tm) explain to me how you get a muzzle
>velocity 300 m/s greater than your average anti-tank rifle using a
>barrel that is only 6" long !?!
>
>Me thinks there is something broken here :)

	Well, let me run the FF&S numbers here... P.102 sez:

1) Length of barrel in cm=Muzzle velocity in m/s divided by (100*tech level
modifier).  Here the tech level modifier is 1.

	15=MV/100, therefore 1500=MV unless I'm gravely mistaken.

	Now that you mention it, it does seem kinda scarily high...



Bruce Johnson wrote:

[snip]
>
>	Yes, FFS! The weapons designed system has long been recognized to
>be very broken at the extreme ends of the scale, and as usual for a FSH
>design, this one's off the deep end ;-)


	What... you mean you don't think that a 15mm handgun firing HE
rounds at supersonic muzzle velocities makes brilliant sense?  I think it
does :).


>
>	I took a quick hack at designing this in 3G3, (btw I HIGHLY
>recommend this one...I bought the Adobe Acrobat version with the
>spreadsheets...$12.00, and I had the stuff in my hands almost
>instantly...If I could have ALL my gaming supplements in this fashion I
>could have my library at home and here at work. I REALLY want that
>Traveller CD IG's rumored to be working on.) and ended up with an even
>heavier weapon, at 7.5 kg, over double the barrel length, at 37 cm.
>
>I haven't played with a Gauss design in quite a while (my last effort ws a
>TL-15 Aslan specialty weapon, based on the thing that the alien had in
>Predator)
>
> BTW Greg Porter has an illuminating discussion of railguns (what he
>calls gauss weapons) in 3G3, in the part called 'Past the limits'
>where he talks about the design of a railgun to put a 1m diameter round
>into orbit, needing 119,000 G of acceleration.
>
>0 to 1500 m/s in a distance of .15 m is roughly 10,000 gee of
>acceleration.
>
>this is an absurd gun by ANY stretch of the imagination, and a worthy (?)
>addition to the FSH catalog.

	Why thank you, I think :).

	It occurs to me that we can quickly and easily test the
Lb=V/100*TLm formula using the DH-1:  We know that the projectile weighs
7.06 grams.  All we need to know is the amount of energy required to
accelerate that projectile to those speeds, do the appropriate math, and
then see whether it equals the 7,942 joules FF&S says is required.

	At this point I am kicking myself for packing up all my non-school
books for my impending move.  Can somebody else do this?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:31:57 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>
Subject: Re: Lost THUDDD Entry

>  Gee, and I thought some of the other designs were excessive!  This is
>really a warship with some troops aboard, as I commented about an earlier
>design.  With vehicles, it's by far the most expensive, and still offers
>only J2 M2.  I think the armor and especially the Meson Screen are way
>over the top for the design criteria.  On the other hand, if i could
>afford it, as a player character it's the design I'd like to be in in a
>fight.  Overall, interesting, but too expensive.
>
>______________________________
>Dr. Mark Clark
>Oregon Institute of Technology

And now for my rebuttle :)

But first, let me thank Dr. Clark for his evaluation - all of his points are valid, and I
appreciate his comments. I never mind criticism, as long as it's polite and professional.

The main concern he seems to present is cost - and I agree (how can I not) that the
design is rather expensive. It should be obvious that I placed cost at the bottom
of my priorities - I figure there would be some people who could afford such a
ship, and would appreciate its features - just as there are some people who would
want the cheapest design.

An analysis of the cost shows two major cost factors: MFDs and Small Craft. The 
small craft, of course, can be purchased separately. But the fighters are rather
expensive. Replace them with the standard 10-ton light fighter, and you save
a deal of money.

Now for the MFDs...11 of them. (6 for missile batteries, 2 for lasers, 2 for sandcasters, 1 for
nuclear damper). This adds up to almost 300MCr. However, except for the missile batteries,
I feel all of these MFDs are neccessary. 

The missile batteries, of course, take a lot of MFDs...but I wanted a design that could
saturate a LZ with orbital bombardment (thus the high number of missiles), and
what's the point of having all those missiles if you can't control them all (thus, the
MFDs).

The meson screen and armor were added solely for survivability - both were quite
inexpensive in the grand scheme of things. 

I wanted a ship that could truly deliver a fully equipped troop unit - command staff,
support personnel, troops, vehicles, etc...into a hot LZ and survive. Without reguard
to cost :) I think this design does it.

Once again, Dr. Clark, thanks for your comments. I'm playing around with a
another design with fewer MFDs (and thus fewer batteries)...it appears the
cost will be around 600MCr without vehicles...still pricey...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@netins.net - http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/   |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:25:23 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answer] What is Contra-Grav for?

At 10:44 AM 3/13/97 -0500, Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
>snip<
>If you haven't read DGP's _Starship Operator's Handbook_, then you can skip
>over this part.  If you have, here's a reason why I don't believe their
>explanation.
>
>In the starship operators' book, DGP's writers proposed that thrust-plate
>maneuver drives were capable of vectoring their thrust in any direction,
>without having to be gimballed, though thrust in other directions was at
>lower efficency.  In addition, they postulated that the drives could be
>over-powered by up to 1000% (yes, ten times) for at least long enough to
>land the ship.
>

WARNING!!WARNING!!WARNING!!WARNING!!WARNING!!WARNING!!WARNING!!WARNING!!
Part or all of the above paragraph is incorrect or faulty

Starship Operators Manual Vol. 1, 
Page 3 Section Titled "Pushing the Drive Limits:"
....."The plates may be overdriven by up to 40% for extended periods of
time(days) with few harmful effects if the overage is done skillfully."
    "On the other hand, overdriving the plates by 400%(as in the case of a
1G ship trying to do a lateral hover at takeoff or landing) takes the
utmost care, and can only be done for brief periods of time(under 5
minutes). While overdriving the plates at such extreme levels, the engineer
must pay very close attention to the drives to make sure no overloads
develop or warning lights appear."

>This raises several questions.  Aside from the obvious question of where the
>maneuver drive is going to get the power (most Traveller ships don't have
>power plants capable of this kind of output), there are questions of how long
>the plates can keep it up.  But the most important question has to do with
>combat: in Traveller, evasion is based on the ship's maneuver rating and
>G-complensation.  A ship evades by making short burns by the ship's main
>drive, so that the ship is Somewhere Else (if only by a few meters) by the
>time a shot aimed at it actually arrives.
>
>With DGP's version of the thrust-plates, any ship with a 1G drive could
>easily evade at 10Gs (or more likely the limit of it's G-compensation).
>This would allow a 1G fat trader to evade shots as easily as a 6G destroyer
>(since G-compensation is the limiting factor for how much thrust can be used
>for evasion).
>

Well 400% does not equal 1000%, 5 minutes does not make for a space combat
turn either.

Micro evading is another crock of underthough feldercarb. 

If has been stated that ship can microevade and that will render the fire
control solution less useful, but the sensors can read the hull numbers of
the same ship(micro evading). It was explained that the sensors software
could perform this feat of magic, well who says that the fire control
computer can not use the same stabilization software. 

Again the unaswered question what is the resolution of sensors or can they
not only read the hull numbers of micro evading ship but scan down to
examine the molecular structure?

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:24:04 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

>Just like Int theoretically represents IQ, Edu theoretically represents a
>level of school achieved (but not necessarily a diploma fromt hat school).
>Thus, someone with Edu 4 has finished grade school (but may not necessarily
>have a "certificate of completion" so commonly given out. On the other hand,
>it is possible for someone to have a BA and not have the corresponding Edu A.
>
>I'm of a mind to say this for chargen. If you attend (say) college and
>graduate, you get Edu A if you don't have it or better already.

I've been casually following the EDU posts semi regularly and this is the
best explanation I've heard yet.

One thought, Marc, is that you have the closeness of EDU to A (or beyond)
work as a modifier for the number of years spent in College (if attended).
ForEx:  John Brainy has just been rolled up with an EDU of 9.  Is it really
going to take him the same 4 years to get a degree as it does for Betsy
Normal who has an EDU 7?  I would think not.  John may spend 2 or 3 years
instead.


Paul {tiger}
tiger@goldinc.com
http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:36:11 -0500
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: THUDD entries

on Fri, 14 March (received 13 March! date line difference!) Idiot/Savant
wrote
>The Warrior, OTOH, does it right, managing to squeeze in J-3 performance
_and_ enough 
>cargo space (though it seems to be missing power-plant fuel. Whoops!).
Despite it's bugs, 
>and not quite meeting the specification, I rated this design highly- - it 
makes a great 
>"pocket merc cruiser" for those who can't or won't go for the bigger
vessels.

Thanks for the kind words. My submission reflects the problems of waiting
until just before the deadline to finish the entry paperwork. (I  usually
work best under pressure!) The power-plant fuel was included in the volume
allocation on my spreadsheet; it was not summed with the jump fuel in the
USP.  I need to redo my design spreadsheet to automatically format the
THUDD entry.

I think I may have blown the weapons entries as well. Late at night, the
design sequence in Starships was a little less than clear on how to
formulate the entries for a laser battery--the terms penetration and damage
seemed to be used interchangeably. If this was covered before, maybe
someone could e-mail me a short description directly. (Too much travel to
keep up with the traveller list!)

I've scanned the other entries and am picking up a lot of good ideas and
different approaches. I'll be posting my comments. It would be very
interesting to have a play off between the designs to evaluate the
different design philosophies, maybe at some games con. The battles should
go fairly quickly. A scenario for the merc cruisers might be to have two
mercenary teams attempt to secure a crash site, ancient artifact, or some
other feature on an otherwise empty planet. Each side would know the other
was coming and would roll 1D6 to see what day they arrived. First they
would have to search for the other ship and team to avoid an ambush, then
land their own troops and try to set their own ambush. Play-offs between
the other ship types would also be interesting. Any other ideas?

Later, John Lambert

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:02:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDD Entries - Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class

  This was the design I missed comments follow below

> Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class (SSDS)
> 
> Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au
> 
> Tons: 800Std (SL Sph)    Volume: 11200 m3       Cost: 591.8(540.2)MCr
> Crew: 21                 High/Med Pass: 0/40    Low: 0
> Cargo: 100Std            Controls: Mil(Fib)(B)  TL: 12
> 
> 08 Size                             2 Jump Drive (80 Std/Pc Fuel)
> 1x 251Mj HvyLsr(+4) 1/5-4-2-1       2 Maneuver (2G T-Plates,400MW)
> 1x HvyMslTrt(+4) 4/4                1 Power Plant (2x250Mw+ 2x100Mw)
>                                   167 Std Fuel (Refine 17, Scoop 167)
>                                     0 Meson Screen
> 1x Min Hngr (Mod Cutter)            4 Sandcasters (120)
> 1x Docking Ring (50-ton Craft)      0 Nuclear Damper
>                                   A10 P4 J10 Sensors (-3 Masking)
>                                    30 Armour, 14 Structure
> 
> Crew Detail - 1 Maintenance, 2 Eng - Power Plant, 6 Eng - Drives,
>               3 Electronics, 2 Maneuvering, 3 Gunnery - Other,
>               2 Command, 1 Steward and 1 Medic.
> 

  This is a very nicely balanced design that comes very close to the CT
Happy Fun Ball.  It carries two mod cutters for troop delivery, as well as
plenty of cargo space for modules and gear.  The weaponry is about right
as well - superior to standard merchant ships, esp. when backed up by
military sensors.  The troop space is also generous - one can carry twice
as many soldiers at a pinch.  The only limitation is the J2 M2
performance, not a big issue in Milue 0.  The price is right, as well.
Very nicely done.

  In light of what other designs have done, you might consider replacing
the missiles with a meson gun and adding some screens - cargo space is
plenty to play around with.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:46:51 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Gram Fleet Admiral Njrdinskiold (LONG)

A while back I mentioned on this list a character one of my players
is developing. He's the former fleet admiral of Gram. My campaign
runs in the year 1106 in the Spinward Marches.

There seemed to be some interest from readers of the TML in seeing
this character. What follows is the character's history as told in
a series of correspondences.

Comments are, naturally, welcome.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

Name:  Juri Nj=94rdinskiold, Retired Fleet Admiral, Gram Sword World Navy=

Age: 53
Home World:  Gram, current Sword World capital

1070 Attended Naval Academy at age 18

Letter to Parents, 1070-150
Dad, Mom:  I hate it here.  Why'd I have to go to Naval Academy?
I should've just enlisted with the Navy and be out there hunting
down worthless Imperical scum.  But instead, after years of
school I have to take more school.  All I'll be good at is
polishing boots.  Thanks a bunch.

Letter to Parents, 1073-001
Dad, Mom:  Only 1 more year!  My instructor thinks I should go
into Flight School.  Sounds interesting enough...I will have to
see how this year goes.  Hope you don't expect too much.

1074 Attended Flight School at 22

Letter to Parents, 1074-020
Father, Mother:  Flight school!  Never thought I would
voluntarily take even more schooling.  4 years of this and I will
finally be an Ensign in the Navy!  Hope I did not dissappoint you
with my lacklustre performance in the Academy, but my heart was
not in it.  That has all changed.  One day maybe I will be an
Admiral.

Letter to Parents, 1077-300
Father, Mother:  Hope you will come to the ceremonies.  Flight
school was outstanding.  Even picked up a few skills this
time...I will have to take you around in a ship's boat one day.

1078 Joined Navy at 26 as Ensign - term 1

Letter to Parents, 1079-015
Father, Mother:  Sorry you did not make it.  I have just been
promoted to Sublieutenant after my first year.  I am more than
glad that I went through the academy after I have seen what the
NCO's go through.  Duty is not always easy though.  I have found
a good woman and will be married later this year.

Letter to Parents, 1081-350
Father, Mother:  It has been a few busy years.  I was wounded
this year during a siege and won a purple heart, my first
"decoration".  Gave me a limp that will probably last a lifetime.
I must be doing okay, they are certainly teaching me a lot, even
giving me "special" assignments.  Of course, I cannot talk about
them here.

1082 - 30 - term 2

Letter to Parents, 1084-100
Mother:  My regrets and sympothies.  Relatively quiet shore duty
at last.  Last year was hectic, with my involvement in the Fourth
Frontier War (another purple heart, and an MCUF).  Also won me a
promotion to Lieutenant.  Sending me on training next year.

1086 - 34 - term 3

Journal, 1087-117
During patrol encountered supposedly off course Imperial Navy
Ship.  They are not as cowardly as we are led to believe.
Handled situation well enough to garner promotion to Lt.
Commander and impress superiors.  Will be sent to intelligence
school for a year - Captain thinks I am leader material.

1090 - 38 - term 4

Journal, 1090-280
Successful strike duty, another MCUF, and promotion to Commander.
Will spend next year on patrol.

Journal, 1093-050
On patrol this year.  Spent last year in frozen watch, which
makes me a year younger than I am.

1094 - 42 - term 5

Journal, 1094-250
Unpleasant strike against the Darrian Confederation, although
small enough to only require the Gram fleet; awarded MCUF and
promotion to Captain.  Executing captives is never pleasant.
Captain Zahn seemed to enjoy it too much; questioned my
loyalties.  Next year will be Naval Atache as an Admiral's aide.
Hopefully, Admiral Hasselmann whom I admire as best in the
Confederacy.

Journal, 1096-299
Another year as Naval Atache, complete with promotion to
Commodore.  Fleet Admiral Hasselmann was impressive, and has
taken me as understudy.

1098 - 46 - term 6

Journal, 1098-195
Civil war on Joyeuse; we are ordered not to intervene by the
Confederate government.

Journal, 1099-017
Fleet Admiral Hasselmann retired, the Navy will not see a man
like him for generations to come.  Gunther von Strucker has taken
Fleet Admiral's post; an unpleasant man.  Clings to outdated
emotions and prejudices.  Hopefully it will not impede my
advances.

Journal, 1099-210
Fleet Admiral von Strucker is pushing to quash the Joyeuse civil
war under the pretext it is gaining system wide support on both
sides.  He claims it will one day threaten peace among the
Confederacy.  He sees it as no more than an opportunity to
further his career and attempt to build a Confederate fleet under
his control.

Journal, 1100-050
von Strucker is leaving service to go into politics.  The
position will be open next year and it will be between me and his
puppet Zahn.  At least Hasselmann still has influcence with the
Admiralty.

Journal, 1100-217
Heidi ran off with that imbecile Zahn.  He can have her;
ungrateful woman.

Incident Report, 1100-271
I regret that while on duty and in view of men serving under
myself and another officer (Commodore Zahn), I did in fact strike
that officer.  I would claim personal greivances, political
differences, and officer competitiveness as reasons, not excuses.
There is no excuse for such a loss of control, especially in
front of subordinates.

Navy Martial Review Board, 1100-303
Commodore Nj=94rdinskiold:  All charges in relation to Incident
Report 1100271-5 have been summarily dropped.  The Report will be
filed with your record, and note that suspension may follow a
further Incident of this nature.


Journal, 1101-300
After 4 years of endless, grueling, mostly boring patrol,
promoted to Fleet Admiral.  Admiralty really could not pass me
over because of a highly publicized and quickly defused meeting
with a small Imperical fleet.  Zahn, doing routine shore duty, is
furious.  Heidi is apologetic and simpering now that I am
Admiral; they are made for each other. von Strucker is trying to
mark me as an Imperial sympathizer.

1102 - 50 - term 7

Journal, 1102-010
Finally, the fleet is mine.  Only four years until mandatory
retirement, I must start grooming a successor. Hasselmann taught
me well and is now a good friend.

Captain's Log, 1103-099
Wounded during patrol; encountered rogue Imperial cruiser
harassing a local merchant vessel.  Impounded ship and delivered
crew to nearest Imperial Navy base.

Journal, 1103-099
Returned Imperial crew under heavy suspicion.  Many are furious I
did not deal with them myself, but I believed they were not my
jurisdiction.  I would expect same treatment from Imperial
commanders (would they reciprocate?).

Classified Letter from Gram Department of Foreign Relations, 1103-
231
It is the expresed concern of this government that the Imperial
Cruiser (Log date 1103-099) should have been destroyed with the
full crew complement aboard.  We regret that unofficially the
Empire is accusing the SW fleet of piracy and trickery by
returning their crew but not their vessel.

Journal, 1104-020
Hmph.  52 and they think they can train me something.

Letter to Confederate Admiralty, 1105-300
Gentlemen:  Attached is my recommendation for my replacement.  I
have trained Bjorn Eriksson following the respected teachings of
Fleet Admiral Hasselmann and believe he will be an effective,
loyal, and commanding leader of our Confederate Fleet.  I regret
retirement, but it is time to pass leadership on to younger, more
energetic men.

Letter from Confederate Admiralty, 1105-330
Yuri:  It is with our most expressed regret that you must retire
after 28 years of loyal service to the Fleet.  Thank you for your
recommendation for your successor, but, unfortunately we have
already decided upon Commodore Wolfgang Zahn with his unswerving
fealty to our glorious Confederacy.  Our best wishes for your
future.

1106 - 54 retired

Letter to Retired Fleet Admiral Karl Hasselmann, 1106-10
Karl, my friend:  I regret I am tired of endless political
yabbering.  Zahn is a bumbling fool, and I do not know how he
made it to Admiral (other than under von Strucker's
manipulating); I hear he had Bjorn transferred to Narsil out of
fear for him.  I hope our Navy does not suffer too much of a
setback.  I fear I have made too many enemies in the government
with my position on Empire/Sword relations.  I think there is
much potential with Empire, but nobody listens.  So I now go to
see what it is really like.  Perhaps I will return one year and
make my waves in the government.


- -- =

Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1077
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 14 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1078



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Solomani Rim ... looking for ...
Solomani Rim Reconnaissance
Re: Fusion
Re: Homo Antiquitus
Re: Homo antiquitus
Gyroscipic and inertial compensators
Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
TNE Concussion and passenger/vehicle damage Question
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1057
Re: THUDDD Entries
Martial Arts
[Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
Solomani Rim ... looking for ...
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:07:26 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Solomani Rim ... looking for ...

Im looking for a printable map of the Solomani rim (sector) on teh web ..
preferably non-applet driven.

Also, im looking for some nice Solomani Confederation Starship pictures.

Id prefer them circa The great patriotic war (intersteller wars) but
anydate will do.

Thanks.

Michael.

"Acquittal of the guilty damns the judge."
				- Horace

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:08:09 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Solomani Rim Reconnaissance

I remember the rationale for the Zhodani Core Expeditions - an Ancient 
artifact callin' them home - but did anybody explain why the Solomani 
would have gone to the effort of exploring out towards the rim? 
Especially so _far_ !

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au  <--- maybe once a week? Don't chance it...

"There was something feminine, and therefore diabolical, about him"
Umberto Eco, _The Name Of The Rose_
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 01:46:29 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Fusion

 
Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com> said:
>
> Question: Can someone please provide a reason why fusion drives are not
> standard for military ships? =20

	Fusion drive ships cannot carry many g-turns of fuel.  The 
numbers listed in FF&S are actually too generous by a decimal point. This 
makes fusion significantly worse than heplar.
	Heplar is significantly worse than t-plates because it requires 
fuel and is actually more expensive when all is considered.
	As far as reaction drives offering greater evasion possibilities, 
the max g's that a ship can handle is more determined by its structural 
strength and the crew's tolerance than by the drive system.
 
Happy Travelling

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 01:52:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Homo Antiquitus

	Howdy!

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Robert Flammang wrote:

>    Well, I may have been too quick to pick nits with Joseph Chepe
>    Lockett.  I looked up the dates for Neandertals, it seems that bones
>    as old as 230,000 years old do exist, which means my quote of 100,000
>    years was way off.  Any neanderphile referee could somewhat plausibly
>    assert that older bones exist, but haven't been found yet, thereby
>    closing in on the 300,000-year target date.
> 
>    Sorry for being too quick in chiming in.

	If we start citing the literature, we are all going to come up
with different dates.  There are a bunch of sites and materials with dates
that are contenious, at *best*.  Late Pleistocene hominid evolution is in
flux, and neanderthal development and classification is a *nightmare* in
particular.  Just go to an AAPA (or ECAE) meeting and watch the fights...
<g>.  The dates of 140,000 - 40,000 years ago are safe but old.  There are
several sites that may push this back, but researchers are still arguing
morphology and dating techniques.


	Laterish!

	Ken

- ---
Kenneth J. Winland, M.A.
Department of Anthropology
University of Toronto
Email: kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca


> 
>    -Rob
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:05:41 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus

> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:19:03 +0100 (MET)
> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus
> 
> >2. There is no reason why modern _Homo_sapiens_ might not be able to
> >breed with a _Homo_erectus_ if one came along.  The problem with
> >species attribution in paleontology is that we can't really use the
> >"if they can produce fertile offsping they're the same species test."
> 
> Are you referring to the practical difficulty involved in mating with someome
> that has been dust for umpteen millenia, or are you saying that such a test,
> even if it was possible, would be invalid? In the second case you'll have
> to explain why. In the first, who knows? There may still be some Homo
> antiquitus stuck in a stasis filed somewhere... ;-)

I believe what he is saying is that since we can't test it we won't know
for sure.

However the question of temporal speciesation can be problematic.  For
example it would be fair to say that you are the same species as your
mother was (No Mr Spock remarks please), and that your mother is the
same species as _her_ mother (your grandmother) and that your
grandmother was the same species as her mother (your great-grandmother)
but if we continue this sort of logic long enough (ten  or twenty
million years for instance) you will find a lemur like monkey as your
direct ancestor.  Now every generation in this link to your lemur
ancestor has involved two individuals of the same species but trying to
suggest that you and the lemur are the same species is a reductio ab
absurdo. Paleontologists use this sort of reasoning to point out that we
cannot _know_ when two populations become two different species.  

If we take the definition of species literally two groups that cannot
interbreed are not the same species.  Unless someone on the list has
invented a time machine & is not sharing with me nobody on the list is
going to be able to breed with any Imperial Romans but they are
obviously of the same species (Homo sapiens) as most of the readers of
this list.
> 
> >In addition, speciation can be allowed on geographic, or
> >even preferencial basis---a given critter _could_ breed with
> >another, but never choses to, or can't because they live someplace
> >that doesn't allow them to meet.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can even argue about wether or not two
> individuals are of the same species without involving the definition of
> being of the same species. If we can't use the aforementioned test (at
> least theoretically) what's the point of using the word?
> 
> >>And this apply even if someone proves conclusively that in reality our
> >>great^10,000-grandfather wasn't Homo Sap. In the Traveller universe he was.
> >
> >No, it proves that we were interfertile with _H.erectus_.

Well either of these interpretations could be correct or it is
_possible_ albeit unlikely that our understanding of hominid evolution
is drastically wrong.

> (And proves it without applying the test, btw.) So dosen't that mean that we
> are the same species as _H.antiquitus_ still?

No, see my explanation above.
> 
> >Actually, this isn't surprising, really.  If we were able to breed with any
> >other species, it would be one that follows or preceedes us since at some
> >point there was a _H.erectus/H.sapiens(archaic)_ walking around.
> 
> But we wouldn't be able to breed with the species preceding or following us
> since the definition of different species is that they can't breed (well,
> produce fertile offspring, actually). I must be missing some part of your
> argument here.
> 
> >Breeding with an australopithicene would be more dicey, but who
> >knows, look how close we are to _Pan_troglodytes_ (chimpanzee)...

How are we going to know this one unless someone clones an
austropithicine (ala Jurassic Park perhaps) and test this theory.
> 
> Close, but not close enough to even produce infertile progeny, much less fertile.
> 
>       Hans Rancke

Has it ever been _established_ that human beings and chimpanzees cannot
interbreed ?  Just because we have not seen it happen does not mean that
it _cannot_ happen.  Until the recent development of artificial
fertilization techniques any such experimentation would have to have
been done the old fashioned way.  I do not think that sexually molesting
a chimpanzee would be a very good idea given their strength & I don't
know enough about chimpanzee behavior to know if they would consent to
sex.  I think that the results of such an experiment would be
interesting to know but any such experimentation would be _very_
controversial and arguably unethical.  I guess this is just more proof
that those darn Solomani are too hasty & rash :)

Peter Newman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:51:11 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Gyroscipic and inertial compensators

Another question for the list :


Roderick Darroch Elliott let me thinking about the difference between
Gyroscopic compensator and Inertial compensator.

The FFS book stated that Inertial compensator is a flexible arm connected
to a backpack which is able to absorb recoil.

What about the Gyroscopic compensator?
How it looks like?

Thanks in advance
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:47:53 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

This is good, but I'll do a remark, I've noticed when i created my peronnal
Gauss pistol.

>8-round box mag
>Battery weight: 0.76 kg

The table in the Gauss desing is wrong. If you use the battery design (as
you would do for lasers or even Mass drivers) you would have 0.046 kg for
the battery weight.

I've checked the receiver weight, comparing to the HPG table at chapter 8
of FFS. It's exactly the same value. That is to say that the receiver is
TOTALY a HPG of 15885J.

I've changed my mind about the battery weight when I talked to Antti
Lahtinen about the weapons on his web site. As Gauss weapons are the next
generation of slug weapons, it has to be more efficient and usable than ETC
weapons. But the batteries are too heavy to be used esaily. 

IMHO, If you can build an ETC rifle which has the same size, same weight,
I'm sure you could do more damage. So Gauss weapons are not an improovement.


And about the remarks on the barrel length. I think it's not broken since
Gauss weapon are a positive evolution of ETC weapons. 
Gauss weapon are lighter, more silencious, more efficient (shorter) than
their damage equivalent in ETC technology. That's the point.


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:57:51 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: TNE Concussion and passenger/vehicle damage Question

Several TNE rules questions than severly bothered me... :-(

1- Can anybody explain me why the Concussion/Burst is so efficient! 

Example : My character STR 10 and CON 7 (Head 14, Chest 51, others 38). Now
a regular HE grenade C3 B15 explodes at 1m from him (he wears a body sleeves).

Assuming aromour doesn't protect from concussion. Taking average values he
would suffer 3D6 = 11 damage point spread over the body (2 in the head, 2
in chest 1 in arms and legs, 2 in abdomen and 1 where you want). Concussion
does litle scratch!

Now the burst! In the primary burst area, the average number of hits he'll
get is (3*3.5+3*1+4*0)=1.35, let's use 2 hits. The damge value for each is
DV2. Assuming th AV is 1, each hits does 1D6+1 damage point. So let's say
1hit un the  leg and 1 in the abdomen. Average damage points in 4 and 5

So The result is somthing like that
AV1 - average        /    AV0 - average 
head  : 2            /    2
chest : 2            /    2
arms  : 1 each       /    1
legs  : 1 and 5      /    8
abdo. : 5            /    8

At 1 meter , a grenade only scratch you. 

Now a small gauss pistol does 3D6 damage with 2-2-2. So a round of fire
would do 5*1D6+2 damage. Somthing like
AV1 - average  /  AV0 - average 
chest : 5      /     11  
legs  : 6      /     10
abdo. : 6      /     11

Seems gauss pistol is more efficient than a grenade exploding at 1meter
from you!!!

Now if you use a DV5 semi auto rifle, grenades looks like fireworks!!!

Related point : Solid armour such battldress should protect from concussion...
why not using the vehicle pentration (PV+2D6, compared to AV)?

Does anyone have an alternate rule?
What is T4 system?


2- Passenger inside vehicle damage. 

TNE rules stated that for a hit on vehicle in a location of a passenger,
this passenger would suffer of 1D6 hits doing 1D6 damage (DV1!!) even with
a PAW attack!!!. How the passenger personnal armour affect this value which
is ridiculously small. The passenger would never get killed from the blast,
which is totaly unrealistic. 

For space ship combat, it's the opposit. If crew member is hit, he's
dead!!!. But the spaceship combat uses the same rating as vehicle combat.
Lasers and PAWs works exactly the same in both systems...

Does anyone have an arternate rule?
What is T4 system?


Thanks a lot
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:07:05 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1057

At 17:33 10/03/1997 -0500, you wrote:
>Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:40:31 -0500
>From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
>Subject: Hey Andrew! (was Re: Old foggies quiz)

>You posted this quiz, but I haven't seen you respond with all the answers.
>Will you, please?

>At 09:10 PM 2/28/97 +1300, you wrote:
>>>Okay, so having determined the arcane meaning of TSR, who can
>>>answer the following?

>>The answers are

>>>what does FASA stand for?

>>Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration

>>>what does SPI stand for?

>>Simulations Publications Incorporated.

>>>What were SPI's RPG's called?

>>Dragonquest and Universe (the rules were written in the same
>>format to the rules for their wargames) and of course: Dallas
>>(arguable the strangest RPG ever produced)

>>>What was GDW noted for before traveller?

>>I was actually thinking of the Europa series of wargames. Does
>>anyone know if it was ever finished? I know four parts were
>>published.

>>>What was the damage of a revolver in traveller (1977)?

>>3D+3, in the very first edition of traveller, most of the
>>weapons did xD+x damage. From memory a carbine did 2D+4.
>>You added the extra were you saw fit. It made that first
>>shot all the more lethal.

>>>What was the Chaosium's magazine dedicated to RuneQuest?

>>Wyrms Footnotes

>>>What does SORAG mean?

>>Special Operations Research Activities Group

>>>Who was Gigi D'Arn?

>>Anonymous (and possible fictional) gossip columist in
>>Different Worlds. One of the most "fun" bits to read.

>>>What issue did JTAS start using colour?

>>Issue 13

>>>Who produced C&S?

>>Fantasy Games Unlimited, it was role playing, but was it
>>a game :*)

>>>What was GDW's modern minatures rules called?

>>Tacforce, produced with GHQ in 1980. It came in a box with
>>3 5.5" x 8.5" rulebooks. If you look at it you can find alot
>>of the concepts which would latter appear in Striker. Had one
>>of the best lines I've ever read regarding the M728 Combat
>>Engineering Vehicle "Manuals stress it is not a tank and is
>>not to be used as such; which probably means it will be"
>>Command Decision was a set of 2nd World War rules (at least
>>initially).

>>>Anybody able to answer all these questions has spent far too
>>>long playing RPG's :*).

>>Anybody under 30 who could answer 6 of the 11 questions should
>>really get out more :*)

Sorry about the delay, my mail feeds been playing up.
However what you were repling to was the anwers :*)
Just I got one of them wrong

SORAG in fact stands for:
   Scientific Operations Research Administration Group

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  "Cross my heart
   Hope to die
   Don't believe in the night
   Its a game that we play
   Each and every day"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 09:42:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: THUDDD Entries

>   This a warship with some troops on it, not a mercenary cruiser.  High
> cost, and troops have to ride down in grave vehicles rather than shuttles.
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Interesting example of the high end, but not practical.

That middle sentence contains my nominee for "most accurate typo on the
TML, 1997." :)

    ROTFLMOL!!!!!!  <GASP>  Talk about low confidence in insertion operations!

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 09:42:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Martial Arts

>> I myself thought about introducing a martial-Arts skill
>> table for traveller.
> martial arts (read: oriental) are just the same as any other type of
> unarmed combat There is no need for tables and charts to check to
> see if you scream KEEE-YA just right.
    I suspect what the original poster was refering to was an update of some
type of the tables that originally appeared in the original Journal's for
Classic Traveller.  I've been thinking of doing the same thing myself, I'm just
not intimately acquainted enough with the T4 combat rules to do it right...
yet.
    BTW you discount the range and depth of Human inventiveness.  The Martial
Arts stretch from Capoiara in Brazil to La Savate in France to African styles
I've only seen demonstrated and can't remember the name of off the top of my
head.

> I have no training whatsoever in hand to hand but I used to spar
> with a friend who was some colour of belt (2 or 3 up from the start
> colour, it's been 5 years) My unorthodox methods were hard for him
> to counter (read: no plan, just attack). And I have flipped several
> people who had taken martial arts training because they expected
> everything to work just so.
    I'm not surprised by this at all, any serious study of the Martial Arts
requires a year or two to master the basic techniques before you're really
ready to learn how to use them in combat.  In most of the Arts I've studied the
actual fighting part is something they start teaching you after you've gotten
your Black Belt, allowing you to master the basics before moving on to the
advanced techniques.  In the three Martial Arts I've studied each time I've
reached Black Belt my teachers make it very clear that this is not an end, but
rather a new begining.  One of them even compared getting your Black Belt to
getting your Driver's License.  You've met the minimum qualifications to drive
on city streets, you are not ready for the Indy 500. ;)

> If you want a breakdown of brawling, why not breakdown every other
> skill. Just call brawling whatever you want, and budda bing budda
> boom, you have alternate rules.
    That's one way, but there are two major reasons.  One OC is color and flare
it can put into a game, the other is that a trained and experienced Martial
Artist can wipe the floor up with a Brawler and not break a sweat.  There
should be rules to reflect this.  BTW by "trained" I mean a Martial Artist with
at least five years of continuous study, ten or more would be more usual.

> BTW, the deadliest form of hand to hand would most likely be commando
> training (various countries)
    Depends on WHO is using the training.  A soldier with a couple of years of
service and combat under his belt...  or a fresh youngster just out of
training?  BTW Commando Training evolved out of encounters the British had with
Asian Martial Artists durring the Colonial Period.  All of the moves can pretty
much be traced back to this or that Martial Art from which they were swiped.
The advantage of this is that Commando Trainin in HtH is very good at it's
focus of killing quickly.  The downside is that the Commando doesn't have the
broad range of techniques and skills an experienced Martial Artist has.

    Just out of curiousity, have you ever sparred with a Senior Black Belt?
Third Dan or above?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:30:49 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

	I hate to beat a dead horse, but this issue has surfaced so
	often that I would like to make an official Traveller question.

	So, once again: When we are designing starships and vehicles,
	should we use Contragravity [CG] lifters or Antigravity [AG]
	thrusters ?

 Why I want to make this question?

	T4 was supposed to use "grav thrusters that can provide both
	lift and thrust". Since contragravity lifters can't provide
	thrust, I assumed that T4 used antigravity thrusters.

	Presently it seems that some designers use CG while other use
	AG. However, because of their basic principles these systems are
	mutually exclusive and do not easily fit into the same universe.

 What are the differences between CG and AG?

	Contragravity generates a spherical field where gravitional
	attraction is nullified. CG vehicles can be used as lighter-than-
	air (or lighter-than-anything) vehicles, and require separate
	thruster engine to move around.

	Antigravity thruster is direct thrust engine that pushes against
	local gravity field. AG vehicles may use part of their thrust
	for hovering (like a helicopter), and use remaining thrust for
	acceleration.

 What is the final effect on vehicle design?

 Using Contra Gravity:

	Large vehicles may float with the same power usage in 1G and
	100G gravity fields.

	CG gravity nullifier makes perpetual motion power plants
	possible.

	Grav vehicles require separate thrusters to move around. (For
	example, a grav belt needs propellers in atmosphere and rockets
	in vacuum.)

	Grav belts cause very interesting secondary effects. (Everything
	within CG field is effectively weightless. If a character is
	using a grav belt to hover above a lake and the CG field
	touches the surface of water, the pressure of surrounding water
	pushes the weightless water upwards and the whole CG field will
	soon be filled with water.)

 Using Antigravity:

	Most existing starships have only 1G antigravity thruster, and
	will not be able to hover on 100G gravity field.

	Airframed atmospheric grav vehicles (Speeders) may take off and
	land vertically using AG thrust, and fly on very high speed using
	wings for lift and AG for thrust.

	Grav vehicles can operate in water, atmosphere, and vacuum
	without any problems.

 End of question. Waiting for answers.

        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:07:26 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Solomani Rim ... looking for ...

Im looking for a printable map of the Solomani rim (sector) on teh web ..
preferably non-applet driven.

Also, im looking for some nice Solomani Confederation Starship pictures.

Id prefer them circa The great patriotic war (intersteller wars) but
anydate will do.

Thanks.

Michael.

"Acquittal of the guilty damns the judge."
				- Horace

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:21:44 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

At 05:30 PM 3/13/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Just like Int theoretically represents IQ, Edu theoretically represents a
>level of school achieved (but not necessarily a diploma fromt hat school).
>Thus, someone with Edu 4 has finished grade school (but may not necessarily
>have a "certificate of completion" so commonly given out. On the other hand,
>it is possible for someone to have a BA and not have the corresponding Edu A.
>
>I'm of a mind to say this for chargen. If you attend (say) college and
>graduate, you get Edu A if you don't have it or better already.
>
>
>Mental Characteristic Equivalents
>Value	Int	Edu	
>0		
>1		
>2		Illiterate
>3		Reading
>4		Grade School
>5		
>6	Average	
>7	Average	High School
>8	Average	
>9	Above Average	Associate
>A	Superior	Bachelors
>B	Very Superior	
>C	Gifted	Masters
>D	Genius	
>E		Doctorate
>F		

Ha!  Vindication.  What's really interesting is the timing of this email.
After the vicious beating that my "EDU is absolute" theory took from this
list, I abandoned it and set up another method for limiting EDU.  I may
have to rethink now.  :-)

 James Garriss                             
 System Engineer, MITRE               
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss      

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 10:18:56 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) wrote:
> Could someone in the RealWorld(tm) explain to me how you get a muzzle
> velocity 300 m/s greater than your average anti-tank rifle using a
> barrel that is only 6" long !?!

It's called _FF&S_.  The small arms design sequences in FF&S become
increasingly broken the farther away from center you get.  "Center" seems to
be approximately an M-16 rifle.

FF&S is NOT the official weapon design system for T4; Greg Porter's 3G3 is;
and if you're at all interested in such stuff, I can't recommend 3G3 highly
enough.


bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
> Put me down in the "space stations aren't much use" category.

In my own campaigns, all Class A and Class B starports have space station
components; most other worlds do not have space stations unless there is
a separate reason.  The initial reason for having a station at Class A and
Class B ports is so that these starports can construct and repair
unstreamlined ships (required by definition for Class A and B ports).

If some kind of station already exists (and is crewed, and has regular
shuttle runs to the ground), then it begins to make sense to use the station
for other things.  Since it's there, it becomes a convenient place to stash
cargo and freight, and an easy way for passengers to transfer from ship to
shuttle.

> For cargo transhipment, there's no particular need for a space station, even
> for unstreamlined ships. It's not like the cargo hauler has to wait around
> a long time for a shuttle

True, BUT a large bulk hauler may well have 5,000 tons of inbound cargo,
destined for a half-dozen or more different points on the planet; add to
that 5,000 tons of outgoing cargo, all coming from a half-dozen or more
other points on the planet.

Now you have about a dozen shuttles swarming around the bulk hauler, which
has to unload in a carefully orchestrated sequence (you can't just park
cargo containers in the vacuum, it'll damage many kinds of cargo), depending
on the order in which things were loaded.  If one shuttle is late, then
everyone else's schedule is thrown off.  Then you have to load cargoes
(again in sequence).  Oh yes - while all of that is going on, you have to get
fuel; either by hiring someone with a shuttle to bring it to you, or by
using your own shuttles to go get it.

Compare to the convenience, and more importantly speed (time is money - save
twelve hours at every stop, and you can make an extra roundtrip a year) of
docking to a station, opening the cargo hatches to a (pressurized,
automated) cargo handling system, and offloading everything to the station,
where your freight agent, the customs people, and the consignees can sort it
out later.  While this is going on, the station is pumping fuel into your
tanks, and your purifier can get to work on it while cargo is being loaded. 
Then you load your outbound cargo (already collected, grouped
for your destinations, and with all the paperwork done by the freight agent)
and get the heck out of there.

A space station doesn't help the small ships (and anything under 1000 tons
is definitely small), but for the big haulers, having a station in orbit
helps you make good use of that expensive starship.  In my campaigns, PCs
usually ignore the orbital port, unless they have to go there for some
reason.

> Resources are plentiful in the asteroid belt, but it's cheap to transport
> them down to the ground - much cheaper than doing construction in zero-G
> and vacuum.

But even with Traveller technology, it's more expensive to produce Zero-G
and Vacuum on the ground than it is to use the naturally-occurring Zero-G
and vacuum in space.  It's quite likely that many Far Future industrial
processes will require one or both.


"Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 1. Not being able to play in the services, why characters must be 
> retired hasbeens has never really made sense to me.

Huh?  Who said?  This _doesn't_ make any sense, and is certainly not
required (though it's the most common use of the system).

I've played several campaigns where we decided that the players would be
active-duty military.  The character generation system was then used to
create the character's prior history.  For example, one player would be the
First Officer, so he and the referee would decide what the appropriate navy
rank should be, and the player would enlist in the Navy and run the
character generation system until he achieved the appropriate rank.

The referee may ocassional alter a die roll, or may require the players to
choose certain options (it's a little un-believable when the entire crew of
a scoutship are pilots, and no engineers).

> 2. Traveller should be more flexible allowing players to make up 
> their own galaxy to play in. Yes I know you can do this, but little 
> to no support exists, at least in the older versions.

Huh?  Again, what do you mean?  What sort of support are you looking for? 
The entire current game universe was created using just the tools available
in the game.  One of the first things I did with Traveller was create my
own subector, and finally an entire sector, for my own game universe.


Christian Razukas <chrisraz@clark.net> wrote:
> How big are the aforemtntioned rifts?
> Do the rifts "expand" and cover more than one sector as you leave the map?

As I recall from the maps included with the various alien supplements (both
GDW and DGP), the rifts widen slightly, and extend for as far as anyone has
explored.

> Is known space surrounded by rifts to spinward and trailing, leaving only
> J-4, J-5, or J-6 routes and calibration points (a la The Regency
> Sourcebook) as the only way through them?

If I remember correctly, yes.

> Are the rifts isolated pockets, surmountable if you are willing to take the
> "long way around" (e.g. the corridor to the Spinward Marches)?

I believe the rifts are supposed to be a gap between spiral arms of the
galaxy, and probably extend for farther than you'd want to travel.
Corridor is suppoed to be the only easy crossing of the rifts in
explored space, which puts the Imperium in a strategically-important spot.

> Does the Atlas of the Imperium offer a definitive answer?

No.  It covers approximately the same area as the map in Supplement 11.

At one point (a LONG time ago), I'd photocopied all of the pages to the
Atlas, colored all of the star hexes to match their allegiance, and taped
them all together into a BIG map and hung it on the wall.  Very
interesting!


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1078
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 14 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1079



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Q&A With Tim Brown
Re: THUDD Entries
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1074
Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts
Re: Gram Fleet Admiral Njrdinskiold (LONG)
Gyroscopic and inertial compensators
Solomani Rim Reconaisance
Re: Solomani Rim Reconnaissance
Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts
Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
Re: Here's what I want to see.
Re: TNE Concussion and passenger/vehicle damage Question
Re: Solomani Rim Reconaisance
Re: "estradition"
Re: Gyroscopic and inertial compensators
Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts
Re: Gyroscipic and inertial compensators
Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
Re: resource material

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:36:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Q&A With Tim Brown

Had another Q&A session with Tim Brown.

Q.  Are the Emperor's Arsenal and GM Screen back from the printer yet?

A.  No, there's always printer problems. But they should be shipping to 
customers and distributors on Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. 


Q.  What's on the GM Screen?  Is it that the right product name?  
Traveller doesn't have "GM's".

A.  No, it's called a Traveller Game Screen, since only one side provides 
info for the referee.  The other side has info for players.  It's a 
single sheet, folded in three places (four panels).  It has things like 
the task system, equipment, and so on.  Marc made certain that the screen 
has the tables from T4 Deluxe, not from original T4, where there were 
changes made. [Note from Joe:  Yaay!  In a week or so, we'll know a lot 
more about T4 Deluxe!]


Q.  What is being done about the First Survey LL=Gov Type problem?

A.  Marc is preparing the replacement data.  Once he is finished with it, 
he will have it posted to IG's web site.  In addition, the next time 
First Survey is printed, they will of course include the corrected data 
instead of the data currently within the book.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:19:21 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: THUDD Entries

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> wrote:
=B7 > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:34:06 -0500
=B7 > From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
=B7 >=20
=B7 > I would normally agree with Mark's general comment "I especially
like the
=B7 > idea of having a meson gun - no missiles to run out of, ...." I
debated
=B7 > between missiles and a meson gun or similar weapon. In the end, my
decision
=B7 > to include missiles was based on a desire to include a
non-line-of-sight
=B7 > weapon in the ship's inventory to provide ground support. This is a
=B7 > significant advantage both from orbit (when the ship is over the
other side
=B7 > of the planet) and on the ground to fire at an enemy over the ridge.
=B7 > Constraining a fire support ship to remain at a fixed geosynchronou=
s
=B7 > position limits its combat options.
=20
=B7 In my view of the world, one of the primary advantages of a meson gun
is
=B7 that it *is* an indirect-fire (non-LOS) weapon.  The same trick that
lets
=B7 meson guns fire through armor, or from buried deep sites on a planet,
=B7 allows them to fire through bunkers, mountains, or even a significant
=B7 chunk of a planet...perhaps *all* of one, based on some canon
statements
=B7 about deep-meson sites.=20
=20
=B7 Meson guns are also the ideal space/ground interface weapon for
another
=B7 reason.  Lasers get badly diffused by any significant stretch of
=B7 atmosphere; PA guns of the space type (N-PAWS) can't fire effectively
in
=B7 atmosphere, and of the atmospheric type (C-PAWS) can't fire
effectively in
=B7 space.  Missiles take time to reach the target, give warning of their
=B7 approach, and can be shot down by point-defense systems.  Only meson
guns
=B7 allow instantenous attacks, counterable by only one high-tech
defensive
=B7 technology (not widely deployed in typical lowish-tech mercenary
=B7 environments), and unaffected by atmosphere between you and the
target.=20
=20
=B7 Additionally and uniquely, meson guns are non-LOS and can fire throug=
h
=B7 solid materials to hit their target.  That's why deep meson sites are
the
=B7 ideal planetary defense, and ship-born meson guns the ideal planetary
=B7 attack weapon.


While I like the Meson gun concept for its abilities (fire "through"
stuff) I have to ask about the Rate of Fire.  How often can a Meson gun
fire? As an old arty guy there is often a need for more than "one" tube.
Multiple targets, suppression fire, heck, sometimes you just need to
boost morale with a show of force. Unless you have a dozen meson gun
tubes up in space, I would not count on much fire support. My
understanding is that they have a slow (every twenty minutes?) ROF.

Missiles are not as capable, but do offer the multiple strike and area
effect that I would be looking for. But they are expensive and take up
too much space.

So what is the ideal weapon for supporting troops on the ground? Lets
look at the ships today to see what type of support they offer ground
troops.  Very little. Most have one or two small cannons. That is why
the old BB=92s came out of retirement in the 80=92s.  Fire support from m=
any
(big, medium and small) tubes. Today much of the support comes from the
air.  Helos, close support aircraft, etc=85 But they take a lot of suppor=
t
and cost too much. What are they dropping? Big dumb bombs (contrary to
popular belief, most weapons dropped are not "smart").=20

In Traveller I would design some type of guided dead fall ordnance and
let gravity do the work for me. Take a 1000 lb bomb, put some fins on
it, and a little seeker on the nose and push a thousand out the hanger.

I know that if I was a grunt on the ground I would care less if the
weapon can fire through walls, or can evade detection. What I want is
for the dug in troops in front of me to go away. Now.  One shot is not
going to do it.=20

Thoughts? Ideas?

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:35:02 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1074

At 15:26 3/13/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 13 1997      Volume 1997 : Number=
 1074
>
>Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>  Comments on EDU.
>
>My take on EDU:  It's an abstract stat.

I agree whole heartedly.

I=92m currently working on my PhD.  While this may give
me a "Book" learning level (EDU) of  14 (not counting
any Grammar School) I may not be able to work Physics,
Computer Programming, or even pick my nose.

I have met several PhD=92s that claim they can do anything
now that they have their PhD, but have gotten the biggest
shock, literally, when they tried to work on an electrical
system in a house.

Let=92s settle this once and for all.  EDU level like, SOC
level means little in the accomplishment of a skill.  They
are just records of how long an individual has been
associated with a particular social organization.

EDU =96 the learning system

SOC =96 the nobility system

Eric
Educate  --  Lead  --  Serve

Eric T. Holmes, Safety Engineer
JCI Technical Assurance Department
Health and Safety Branch
PO Box 50    MS: G750
Los Alamos, NM 87544

Tel:  505-665-4894
Fax:  505-665-1887

Voice Pager:  104-1628

              ~~~~~
             (-0^0-)
- ---------oOOo--( )--oOOo---------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:21:40 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts

At 10:18 AM 3/14/97 -0500, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>"Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> 1. Not being able to play in the services, why characters must be 
>> retired hasbeens has never really made sense to me.
>
>Huh?  Who said?  This _doesn't_ make any sense, and is certainly not
>required (though it's the most common use of the system).
>
>I've played several campaigns where we decided that the players would be
>active-duty military.  The character generation system was then used to
>create the character's prior history.  

I think your reply illustrates the original point: what about
*non*-military characters?  These have typically been given the short end
of the stick.  Traders and Scouts are very cool (Scouts still my favorite),
but there should be more: scientist, spy, maybe priest or even dilettante.
And as much as possible, these should be able to create varied characters
that are just as playable as the military ones.  As it is now, sometimes it
feels like we have an old D&D game filled with fighters.  Where are our mages?


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:40:31 -0800 (PST)
From: " Paul  Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Gram Fleet Admiral Njrdinskiold (LONG)

This is great background stuff, thanks Erwin.

PZ


- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:43:11 +0100
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Gyroscopic and inertial compensators

- ------ First try, seems to have disapeared !!! -------

Another question for the list :


Roderick Darroch Elliott let me thinking about the difference between
Gyroscopic compensator and Inertial compensator.

The FFS book stated that Inertial compensator is a flexible arm connected
to a backpack which is able to absorb recoil.

What about the Gyroscopic compensator?
How it looks like?

Thanks in advance


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:55:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Solomani Rim Reconaisance

- ------------------------------

Michael Barry sent:

>I remember the rationale for the Zhodani Core Expeditions - an Ancient
>artifact callin' them home - but did anybody explain why the Solomani
>would have gone to the effort of exploring out towards the rim?
>Especially so _far_ !

I saw a lot of the Colonies being set up during the Nth Interstellar War 
between the First Imperium and the Terran Confederation. They were 
insurance policies against the Terran losing. I made one up for TNE that 
was colonized by Ramship. They went about 300 parsecs rimward from Terra 
- - just to be sure the Imperium couldn't reach them. Unfortunately religious 
fanatics took over the ship when they were awoken out of cold sleep for their 
5 year stint at crew duty. Most of the colonists were marooned on a harsh but 
habitable planet. The Fanatics went on to the destination, a Earthlike world, 
and in a few generation blew themselves back to the stone age. 

The one thing I really liked about my setting was the first words of 'The 
Prayer of the Founders' - 'They fled from Villainy' (Villani gettit?)

I remember reading somewhere that Grandfather deliberately left the 
psionic map where the Zhodani would get it, to get them to waste 
their resources. Grandfather an Impie dog? Looks like it.

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:27:28 -0700 (MST)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Reconnaissance

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Michael Barry wrote:

> I remember the rationale for the Zhodani Core Expeditions - an Ancient 
> artifact callin' them home - but did anybody explain why the Solomani 
> would have gone to the effort of exploring out towards the rim? 
> Especially so _far_ !

1- Because the Imperium was in the way of exploring the richer worlds to
coreward.

2- (My Favorite) Monkey Curiosity.  They just HAD to know what was out
there.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:44:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Mike Sellers wrote:
> 
> I think your reply illustrates the original point: what about
> *non*-military characters?  These have typically been given the short end
> of the stick.  Traders and Scouts are very cool (Scouts still my favorite),
> but there should be more: scientist, spy, maybe priest or even dilettante.
> And as much as possible, these should be able to create varied characters
> that are just as playable as the military ones.  As it is now, sometimes it
> feels like we have an old D&D game filled with fighters.  Where are our mages?

	That's one of the things I like best about TNE...at last you
didn't have a bunch of PC's who were ALL
ex-squids/grunts/gyrenes/scoutscum. Various CT supplements did have varied
career paths (Citizens of the Imperium, IIRC), but TNE had a huge list,
pages of them all with generation sequence...hell you could be a
bricklayer if you really wanted to (well, they called it construction
worker ;-) 

	One of the better TNE ideas that didn't make it into T4.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:59:00 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

At 06:02 PM 3/13/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Dr. Mark Clark wrote:
>
>>
>>  A handgun that weighs more than 9 pounds (9.26 pounds to be exact)?
>>That Hengebar must eat his Wheaties, that's for sure.  My 30-06 hunting
>>rifle weighs less than that, and it's no lightweight.
>
>	Well, I was basically aiming for something that'd be the Gauss
>equivalent of a .50 cal Desert Eagle with the 14" barrel, with a laser
>sight and scope for good measure; something so ludicrously over the top
>that no self-respecting handgunner could look at without giggling, but that
>the guys who have certain, er, insecurities about some of their, um,
>endowments would love...  and the fact that it'd look like a prop out of a
>bad SF movie doesn't hurt either :).

On my pistol page you'll find the stats for the beast, a pistol designed to
fire 12.7mm Browning MG ammo.  The muzzle blast can blow things off the
firing table, and it requires a massive wrist brace to prevent crippling
injury, but one of these monstors was actually built.. Check it out at:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/pistol.html

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:59:03 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

At 07:42 PM 3/13/97 +0000, Vance Scott wrote:

>Traveller always had a couple of failings, and I would love to see 
>them addressed in the latest version.
>
>1. Not being able to play in the services, why characters must be 
>retired hasbeens has never really made sense to me.

Where does it say you can't play active duty military?  I'm currently
setting up a campaign with the characters being the officers and crew of the
INV Coronation (BB-216), a Regal class 90,000 ton battleship.  We're doing
Ars Magica style troupe playing; everyone will have several PCs, from the
bridge cre down to a squad of Marines.

>2. Traveller should be more flexible allowing players to make up 
>their own galaxy to play in. Yes I know you can do this, but little 
>to no support exists, at least in the older versions.

Well, you do have the world generation system.  What else do you need?
Traveller has its offcial backround (the Third Imperium); if you want to do
something different, go for it.

>3. Personally I'd like to see more stuff about the solomani, instead 
>of the viliani. Hey, I'm prejudice I prefer earthers.

Dig up the Traveller alien module (7?) about them, the DGP module solomani
and Aslan (aka Rats and Cats), The issue of The Traveller Digest that
featured Earth (16?), and you have quite a bit of source material.

>Vanquisher of all foes.

Except the last one...

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:59:19 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TNE Concussion and passenger/vehicle damage Question

At 09:57 AM 3/14/97 +0100, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

>1- Can anybody explain me why the Concussion/Burst is so efficient! 

<Demostration of damage by grenade and gauss pistol snipped>

Most people's experience with hand grenades is limited to the obscenities
used in film and TV.  These pocket nukes explode in a giant ball of flame
and throw full grown men 5 or 6 meters.  Right. 

In truth, grenades aren't that effective.. their main advantage is that they
are silent, area-effect weapons.  Most grenades contain about 500g of high
explosive, wrapped in a segmented copper or steel wire sheath.  When a
grenade explodes, this sheath becomes shrapnel.  Unfortuantly, these bits of
metal are ballistic jokes, and shed much of their velocity in a meter or
two.  The concussive force from the explosion really won't do more than stun
you and make your ears ring unless you are within about a meter of the
device when it detonates, and then you'll also be facing the shrapnel at its
most potent.

A gauss pistol, or any other slug thrower, is projecting an aerodynamic,
heavy bullet at high velocity into your body.  Once there, the bullet
tumbles, causing a wound cavity to form as tissue is pushed aside or torn by
the round's passage.  If a bone is hit by a round with some energy
remaining, odds are that the bone will shatter.

So why use grenades?  They make great party gifts for the guys you want to
overrun.  Toss a few frags in their general direction, along with a smoke
grenade, and the bad guys will be forced to take cover while your assult
team starts to move.  Grenades are great at clearing rooms and bunkers also.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:18:45 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Reconaisance

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Eamon Patrick Watters wrote:
> Michael Barry sent:
> 
> >I remember the rationale for the Zhodani Core Expeditions - an Ancient
> >artifact callin' them home - but did anybody explain why the Solomani
> >would have gone to the effort of exploring out towards the rim?
> >Especially so _far_ !
> 
> I saw a lot of the Colonies being set up during the Nth Interstellar War 
> between the First Imperium and the Terran Confederation. They were 
> insurance policies against the Terran losing. I made one up for TNE that 
> was colonized by Ramship. They went about 300 parsecs rimward from Terra 
> - just to be sure the Imperium couldn't reach them. 

Just out of curiosity, but why were they travelling by ramjet?  Granted,
300 parsecs without stopping for maintenance would be pretty hard on a
ship's jump drive, but at 2/parsecs per week (a reasonable average,
assuming the colony ships were capable of 3 parsec jumps, but sometimes
had to take detours, breaks for repairs, and so forth), it would only be a
3-year mission, instead of a 300-year one.  With three jump drives aboard,
you wouldn't have to use any one of them for more than a year.  Colony
ships with lots of redundant systems would have no trouble making this
journey (of course, a while ago, I tried to argue for a jump-capable,
ramscoop-refuelled colony ship intended to go to the *Large Magellanic
Cloud*, a mere *50 kiloparsecs* away, so I may put a little too much faith
in robust engineering, redundancy, and on-board maintenance...just a quick
disclaimer). 
                                                               - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:23:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: "estradition"

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Subject: "estradition"
>
>A certain wiseass spewed:
>
>>From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
>>Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium
>>
>>Can someone tell me what "estradition" is? I've head of eXtradition, but
>>not estradition. <g>
>
>Consonant shift in the next few thousand years will elide the "x"
>following an initial
>"e" to "s" in English; this will be accelerated by the contacts between
>English and
>Vilani.  So we'll be saying "essept" for "except", "estrodinry" for
>"extraordinary", and
>"estradite" for "extradite".  My subject header was simply ahead of its time.
>
>- --Glenn

Ah,.. that explains it!

Nice precognitive work there, Glenn.

As a technical writer, I'm paid to ferret out grammatical and spelling
errors in printed work much to the irritation of Cisco's engineering staff!
So you'll have to forgive my editor's eye.

So, in the far future, will certain characteristics of gangsta rap and
ebonics also make it into Galanglic? Such as "ask" = "ax"?

As in: "Ax me if I care?" <g>

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:22:13 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gyroscopic and inertial compensators

At 05:43 PM 3/14/97 +0100, you wrote:
>------ First try, seems to have disapeared !!! -------

Odd, I saw it...

>Roderick Darroch Elliott let me thinking about the difference between
>Gyroscopic compensator and Inertial compensator.
>
>The FFS book stated that Inertial compensator is a flexible arm connected
>to a backpack which is able to absorb recoil.
>
>What about the Gyroscopic compensator?
>How it looks like?

A gyrocompensator is a set of six small gyroscopes inside the weapon.  When
powered up the tend to keep the weapon pointed in the same direction. this
helps keep you on target despite recoil.  The problem is when you have to
suddenly change targets.. the gyros will fight that move too..

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:22:11 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts

At 08:21 AM 3/14/97 -0800, Mike Sellers wrote:

>I think your reply illustrates the original point: what about
>*non*-military characters?  These have typically been given the short end
>of the stick.  Traders and Scouts are very cool (Scouts still my favorite),
>but there should be more: scientist, spy, maybe priest or even dilettante.
>And as much as possible, these should be able to create varied characters
>that are just as playable as the military ones.  As it is now, sometimes it
>feels like we have an old D&D game filled with fighters.  Where are our mages?

Well, T4 has three direct military careers (Army, Navy, Marines)and the
following other options:  Merchant, Scout, Entertainer, Noble, Rogue,
Scholar, and Agent.  Agent can be defined as anything from reporter to
bounty-hunter, depended on how you direct your skills.

Let's take one of your requests, the priest.  Scholar immediately comes to
mind, with Science cluster skills spent on History, Philosophy, and
Psychology.  Some level of Instruction would be appropriate, as would
Diplomacy and maybe Bureaucracy, to deal with the upper levels of the church.

Now let's take another look.. maybe you want a more flamboyant, evangelical
type.. perhaps Entertainer would fit.  A few levels of Performance and
Fast-talk, combined with a little Acting, and you've got a roof-raising
preacher-man, on his way to the next pressure-tent revival, can I get an AMEN!?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:41:56 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Gyroscipic and inertial compensators

Nicholas Lejeune wrote:

>
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott let me thinking about the difference between
>Gyroscopic compensator and Inertial compensator.
>
>The FFS book stated that Inertial compensator is a flexible arm connected
>to a backpack which is able to absorb recoil.
>
>What about the Gyroscopic compensator?
>How it looks like?


	My take on gyroscopic compensators is that they do not actually
reduce recoil, they just keep the barrel from kicking upwards...  From what
I understand, on firearms the axis of thrust from the recoil is not
perfectly in line with the axis of resistance holding the gun in place
(i.e. the shooter's arm):


Recoil	--------------->[(((((((((((]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
				    [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]_
                                        |   (__)   (__\
                                         \----(__)  \  \______________
                                               (___) \-
<-----------------Resistance from shooter's arm (__)  \_____________
                                                 \_____\

	From what I understand, the lever effect this has is why a gun
kicks upward when fired.

	My take on gyroscopic compensators is that they're housed under the
barrel on a gun, and when firing, briefly engage a gyroscope, so that
motion at an angle to the axis of recoil will be dampened by the
compensator.  Thus, the gun stays much more level when being fired; the
shooter still has to brace against backward recoil, but doesn't have to
worry about keeping the gun pointed, and a small amount of the recoil, the
amount that would go towards kicking the barrel up out of line, is absorbed
by the gyroscope.

	Then again I could be totally out to lunch.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:59:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Estradition in the Third Imperium

In a message dated 97-03-13 12:57:13 EST, you write:

>Can someone tell me what "estradition" is? I've head of eXtradition, but
>not estradition. <g>

It should be spelled ESTradition, It means not feeling bad about being a
bounty hunter.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:59:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: resource material

In a message dated 97-03-13 02:47:56 EST, you write:

>I'm disappointed, folks.  Nobody's mentioned DRAKE.

Drake is good if you skip the interpersonal stuff and go right to the
technical stuff. I just can't buy into most of his characters. Serious
examination of insteller sociology requires Ursula K. LeGuin. Do not start
out with the dispossed, you will die. Try and "easy" one like "Left Hand of
Darkness" or "The Word for World is Forest". A lot of people don't like her
but she makes my world shimmy.
dsf

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1079
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 14 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1080



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

On the subject of Space Stations
Re: Martial Arts
All right...how about THIS!!
Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts
Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
Re: Lost THUDD Entries
Questions about Aliens
Re: Terraforming
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1077
Re: "estradition"
ESTradition;  LeGuin
Grenades
Every Adventure Begins and Ends at a Starport

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:41:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: On the subject of Space Stations

From The Commander at the Office
(pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)

I have seen the thread on orbital space stations and am quite impressed with 
the ideas/flames/etc... regarfing these obriting centres of comerce.

But I submit to you another type of station,

The Deep Space Station.

Most of you on the TML, almost all ISBA, and I think every regualr I talk to 
on IRC knows the story behind "Planet X".  That being that is not even a 
planet at all (thus the "X")  Its a station that exists in deep space one Pc 
coreward of Sylea.

Why do such a thing?  many reasons.

1.  It can link 2 or more 'mains' meaning more Free Traders(or any J-1 
ships) can make more trade and profit in more areas of the sector.

2. They act as a refuling and repair stop between those mains for the J-1 
ships

3. Because of 1. and 2. they can be very lucrative to the owner, especialy 
when it comes to repairs and refuling.

4. Strategic Importance.  The Station could be a garison base for patroling 
the main(s) from pirates and such.

Those are the pros, but deep space stations do have cons.

1. Being in deep space, everything has to be imported from the outside. 
 This is usualy handled by trade and cargo carriers.

2. To run a station, you need to make a LOT of money.  Stations are not 
usualy self sufficent (see point 1). The station needs to sell something and 
turn a profit to  take some of that profit to pay for upkeep and keep the 
populace/workers happy.

3. You better damn well have it well defended, because in deep space its 
just you and your station against the raiders.  You cant call back to the 
planet below  or in orbit #2 for help.

4. If you build it, they may or may not come.  If you advertise, its a 
better chance, if its a link between mains, even better, if you offer lots 
of goods and services, increase your chances more still.  This is a mechant 
prince game, you got to wheel and deal to keep your station floating.

Well, just some thunks on why to build deep space stations...oh I almost 
forgot the prime reason why to buid one:

If the maps change, it  don't matter,  you were never a charted planet 
anyhoo, just put it in a location where it's a blank hex! :)

Enjoy!
Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:13:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:

> > If you want a breakdown of brawling, why not breakdown every other
> > skill. Just call brawling whatever you want, and budda bing budda
> > boom, you have alternate rules.
>     That's one way, but there are two major reasons.  One OC is color and flare
> it can put into a game, the other is that a trained and experienced Martial
> Artist can wipe the floor up with a Brawler and not break a sweat.  There
> should be rules to reflect this.  BTW by "trained" I mean a Martial Artist with
> at least five years of continuous study, ten or more would be more usual.

I agree with the color aspect, but not with the comparison of brawling and
martial arts.  In theory, the two individuals with these skills have spent
the same number of hours training and practicing, as well as actually
*doing* their various moves and countermoves.  They should be equal, in
balance, in terms of their skills and therefore their ability to hit and
do damage.

Brawling is simply a different means of combat.

Now, I do not object to making the two different, but still balanced.
Perhaps the brawler has an easier "to hit" task than an equivalent martial
artist, but the MA can do more damage.

Perhaps one aspect of your picture is that a martial artist with less
than, say, a level 5 skill cannot really use that skill effectively.

In fact I can see one possibility; Brawling is a skill which is
proportional in its effectiveness to the skill level; an increase of one
in the skill level translates directly into an increase in damage and
likelyhood of hitting.  Martial arts, on the other hand, starts out with a
severe handicap; level 1 MA does very little damage and has an extreme to
hit task, but as the level increases, the incremental increase in skill
translates to a jump in effectiveness such that at (for example) level 5
the brawler and the M. artist are on equal terms, but at level 10 the MA
is superior, and at level 1 the brawler is superior.  This would relfect
the need for a much bigger time investment for martial artists.   

In general though, equal skill levels should represent equal time and
skill in the different skills represented.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:26:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: All right...how about THIS!!

go to:http://members.aol.com/rpauza/noframe/20mm-n.html
These crazy people have developed a real 20 mm sniper rifle.

There's a gif on the web page.

"Pauza Specialties introduces it's new 20mm bolt action sniper rifle. This
new high power weapons system is man portable using the time
proven design of the PTRD with modifications to accommodate the larger
caliber. The action is non-recoiling to allow the use of today's
high power optics. This weapons system can be equipped with a bi-pod or
pintle mounting system. Pauza Speciaties utilizes all metal
construction and state of the art manufacturing.

     Weight Approximately 50 Pounds 
     Single Shot Bolt Action 
     38" Free Floating Barrel 
     Removable Barrel 
     Largest Component 44" 
     Adjustable Trigger 
     Reciever Mounted Bi-Pod 
     1" Sorbothane Recoil Pad 
     Leather Cheek Piece 
     Standard NATO Scope Mount 
     Firing Pin Safety 
     Match Grade Barrel "

Take THAT you poor slob in BD! KA-BOOOOM!!

TL-6 technology, too :->

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:36:40 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts

At 10:22 AM 3/14/97 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 08:21 AM 3/14/97 -0800, Mike Sellers wrote:
>>I think your reply illustrates the original point: what about
>>*non*-military characters?  These have typically been given the short end
>>of the stick.  Traders and Scouts are very cool (Scouts still my favorite),
>>but there should be more: scientist, spy, maybe priest or even dilettante.
>>And as much as possible, these should be able to create varied characters
>>that are just as playable as the military ones.  As it is now, sometimes it
>>feels like we have an old D&D game filled with fighters.  Where are our
mages?
>
>Well, T4 has three direct military careers (Army, Navy, Marines)and the
>following other options:  Merchant, Scout, Entertainer, Noble, Rogue,
>Scholar, and Agent.  Agent can be defined as anything from reporter to
>bounty-hunter, depended on how you direct your skills.

Yeah, I went back and looked over these after I posted (I know, shoulda
been before :) ).  I like your characterisation of the priest -- I'll have
to give that a try.  Even with the additional careers in T4 though,
Traveller still feels awfully militaristically-focused.  That may be my CT
days showing through, or it may just be in the nature of the game-universe,
but it seems to me there's some additional dimensionality given to the
military-relevant skills and the situations for which these skills are
useful.  

Maybe we just need to expand our repetiore of adventure ideas to include
those that _need_ a scholar, noble, or priest.  Could be interesting.   


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:46:48 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:47:53 +0100, you wrote:

> And about the remarks on the barrel length. I think it's not broken =
since
> Gauss weapon are a positive evolution of ETC weapons.=20
> Gauss weapon are lighter, more silencious, more efficient (shorter) =
than
> their damage equivalent in ETC technology. That's the point.

=46or such a weapon to work, the round must be accelerated from a =
standing
position to 1,500km/s over the distance of a mere 15cm.  Could such a =
round
survive that kind of acceleration without being turned inside out, I =
think not.
The heat generated from firing the weapon would be immense!

I realize that this weapon design is somewhat of a parody, and that =
players like
big guns that go BANG instead of "zap", but this is why laser weaponry is
reported to have evolved (TL8-9) in the first place :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:15:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lost THUDD Entries

> From: Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>
> 
> And now for my rebuttle :)
> 
> But first, let me thank Dr. Clark for his evaluation - all of his points are valid, and I
> appreciate his comments. I never mind criticism, as long as it's polite and professional.
> 
> The main concern he seems to present is cost - and I agree (how can I not) that the
> design is rather expensive. It should be obvious that I placed cost at the bottom
> of my priorities - I figure there would be some people who could afford such a
> ship, and would appreciate its features - just as there are some people who would
> want the cheapest design.

  By expensive I meant expensive for the mission it was designed for.
Your design is nice, and would work well as a ship in combat with other
front-line craft.  However, one could buy two of the other designs for the
price of yours, and have much more flexibility.  I think the rational that
a mercenary cruiser would not _routinely_ engage in combat, and so needs
only defend itself against minor threats, is reasonable.

  Again, I like the design as a combat ship - I'm sure it would kick ass
vs. the other contestants.
 
> An analysis of the cost shows two major cost factors: MFDs and Small Craft. The 
> small craft, of course, can be purchased separately. But the fighters are rather
> expensive. Replace them with the standard 10-ton light fighter, and you save
> a deal of money.

  Probably a good idea - I don't think the difference in capability would
make much difference in the sort of mission these ships are designed for.

> Now for the MFDs...11 of them. (6 for missile batteries, 2 for lasers, 2 for sandcasters, 1 for
> nuclear damper). This adds up to almost 300MCr. However, except for the missile batteries,
> I feel all of these MFDs are neccessary. 
> 
> The missile batteries, of course, take a lot of MFDs...but I wanted a design that could
> saturate a LZ with orbital bombardment (thus the high number of missiles), and
> what's the point of having all those missiles if you can't control them all (thus, the
> MFDs).

  Good point - I had forgotten MFDs were so expensive.  That's part of the
reason I like the meson gun option - lots of firepower, instant time on
target, no ammunition worries.

> The meson screen and armor were added solely for survivability - both were quite
> inexpensive in the grand scheme of things. 

  Good idea - I'd be interested to hear from some folks who run space
combat more often what level of armor is really required.

> 
> Once again, Dr. Clark, thanks for your comments. I'm playing around with a
> another design with fewer MFDs (and thus fewer batteries)...it appears the
> cost will be around 600MCr without vehicles...still pricey...


  You are very welcome - one of the things I like about THUDDD is the
chance to compare my ideas with that of others - my own designs are
improving as a result.

  As for this contest, my ideal ship (a combination of the entries) would
have a meson gun, some lasers and sandcasters, some screening, two 50T mod
cutters, some fighters (2 to 4), small staterooms for the troops, and a
fair amount of cargo space - at least 60 tons.  To get that within the
1000T hull range you'd need to go J2 M2, I think - J3 just takes up too
much space.

  One thing i am going to do is to design a 400T TL10 SDB as an opponent -
that should give some idea of what a mercenary cruiser should be able to
fight against.


____________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:31:45 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Questions about Aliens

Hi,
I was reading a list of aliens, that I found on the web somewhere, long ago.
The list was composed by Clay Bush.  It listed several aliens in Old
Expanses that I was interested in. Does anyone have any material on these
guys, and could give me a short synopsis.

 Thorellians  supposedly appeared in Travellers Digest 12 pg 34, they 
live on Thorell/Nicosia/Old Expanses.

A minor human race named Liberts proposed by Clay Bush living on Nullia in 
Old Expanses.

Does anyone know of anyother races in Old Expanes, Diaspora, or Alpha Crucis
sectors.  Official or otherwise.  

I know about the Schalli living on Vras.

Lewis

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:28:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Terraforming

Quoth K.C. Komosky:
> 	When looking at a map of the 1st Imperium, why is it the Vilani 
> got all the way to the Solomani Rim Sector, but only explored half of 
> Corridor, which was RIGHT NEXT DOOR?!?!?
> 
> 	Well, has anyone ever though of any logical explanation for this 
> very bizarre pattern of Vilani settlement?

I always figured the reason lay in the apportionment of space to the
bureaux, and the conduct of the Consolidation Wars.

One portion of the Vilani tripartite government stayed close to home, and
either didn't meet any minor races or didn't have to extend to absorb them
- -- so the space around Vland was heavily developed as per your model. 
Another met several alien species and extended into new markets, taking
them up into what is "now" the Vargr Extents and as far as Antares.  The
last bureau, in my mind, met the bulk of the human minor races (Suerrat,
Geonee, Syleans, whoever else) and thus was forced to extend further and
faster in order to incorporate all of them into the Ziru Sirka.

Had cultural rigidity not set in to prevent even further expansion,
development, and conquest, Terra might have suffered the same.  As it was,
the "thinness" of the Vilani expansion rimward assisted in the Terran
victory and occupation.  I view those territories as sparsely occupied,
basically long trade routes connecting pleasant colonized worlds and
homeworlds of subject races, but with little development in-between:
again, the primary reason for the rapid and extensive advance was to bring
outliers into the fold, not mainly for reasons of commercial development.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:34:31 -0500 (EST)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1077

 
	First Survey IS available in Canada... Or at least in Quebec.
Just look into various stores, you're bound to find it, as it has
proven to be unsellable.  Much like most of the T4 material up to
now, unfortunately...
 
	I don't know the status of M0 yet, but we're expecting to
sell a few copies of that, so there's hope yet. :)
 

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:44:15 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: "estradition"

>From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>[with many deletions]
>
>>Consonant shift in the next few thousand years will elide the "x"
>>following an initial "e" to "s" in English; this will be accelerated by the contacts 
>>between English and Vilani.  So we'll be saying "essept" for "except", "estrodinry" 
>>for "extraordinary", and "estradite" for "extradite".  My subject header was simply 
>>ahead of its time.
>
>Ah,.. that explains it!
>
>So, in the far future, will certain characteristics of gangsta rap and
>ebonics also make it into Galanglic? Such as "ask" = "ax"?
>
>As in: "Ax me if I care?" <g>

"Ax me sup" was a typical commo squawck in Terran Confederation days.  It meant, "I'm 
ready to give you electronic information if you're ready to receive."  "Hella rad" is 
often seen next to the old Terran radiation danger symbol at Solomani installations, 
although in the Third Imperium, the Vilani and Terran symbols are used together, with a 
legend in Vilani and Galanglic that says, "Danger--radiation".  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:52:27 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: ESTradition;  LeGuin

>From: Neveron@aol.com
>
>It should be spelled ESTradition, It means not feeling bad about being a
>bounty hunter.

ROTFL!

>Serious examination of insteller sociology requires Ursula K. LeGuin. Do not start
>out with the dispossed, you will die. Try and "easy" one like "Left Hand of
>Darkness" or "The Word for World is Forest". A lot of people don't like her
>but she makes my world shimmy.

It's nice to find someone else who likes LeGuin.  She's really thought the process 
through.  Traveller fans should follow the changes to interstellar society after the 
development of instantaneous communication (the ansible).  Before the ansible, 
information travelled like in traveller -- at the speed of ships.  There was a period of 
dislocation and turmoil as ansibles were shipped around the galaxy on ships.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:33:21 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Grenades

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: TNE Concussion and passenger/vehicle damage Question

>In truth, grenades aren't that effective.. their main advantage is that they
>are silent, area-effect weapons.  Most grenades contain about 500g of high
>explosive, wrapped in a segmented copper or steel wire sheath.  When a
>grenade explodes, this sheath becomes shrapnel.  Unfortuantly, these bits of
>metal are ballistic jokes, and shed much of their velocity in a meter or
>two.  The concussive force from the explosion really won't do more than stun
>you and make your ears ring unless you are within about a meter of the
>device when it detonates, and then you'll also be facing the shrapnel at its
>most potent.

So all those Marines and soldiers who snuffed grenades with their bodies on the beaches 
at Iwo Jima and Anzio and other places killed themselves needlessly? or that Russian 
soldier a few years ago who was demonstrating military equipment to a class of school 
kids, and it turned out that the dummy grenade was live?  That makes me really, really 
sad.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:04:46 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Every Adventure Begins and Ends at a Starport

Every Adventure Begins and Ends at a Starport
	Every adventure begins and ends at a starport. Starports are the means by
which the citizens of every modern society begin their individual journeys to
the stars. These complex constructions provide all of the facilities and
services necessary to support, repair, maintain, and service the starships
that carry interstellar passengers and freight. They are the central
crossroads that all interstellar traffic must pass through. It stands to
reason, then, that interstellar travellers naturally gravitate to
starports... to meet starships and crew, to buy and sell cargoes, and to
begin and end their adventures.
	Starports offer two opportunities for adventure. Travellers can board a ship
and travel to the next world, or they can follow the concourse to the main
gate and move out to explore the world they are on. In both cases, there is
an infinity of opportunities for adventure.
	Beginning Adventures. An adventure can start anywhere, but for convenience
and for continuity, a starting point must be assigned. That assignment says
that an adventure begins at a starport. When characters enter a starport,
their intent is to find adventure. The details of that adventure may not
become clear until later, but the adventure clearly begins at the starport.
	Ending Adventures. Likewise, the details, the climax and even the payoff for
adventures may take place anywhere, but every adventurer knows in his or her
heart that its not over until they reach the starport.
	The Endless Cycle. So, at the very moment that an adventure ends, a new one
begins. The endless cycle in Traveller is the end of an old adventure and the
beginning of a new one; each builds on the previous, and the cycle never ends
until the characters stop going to the starport.

 THE SITUATION INSYSTEM
	A star system is composed of a primary star and one or more stellar
companions. Orbiting these stars are a variety of planets, planetoid belts,
and gas giants. Orbiting planets and gas giants are a variety of satellites.
But the focus is one world... the mainworld... which is the overall best
planet or satellite in the system.
	The mainworld has a starport which, for all practical purposes, is the
destination of interstellar traffic entering the system. Starports vary in
their capabilities and facilities, depending on the details of the world
itself.

CLASSIFICATION OF STARPORTS
	Starports are classified by their location and by their capabilities.

Location
	A starport may be located on a world surface, or it may be in orbit above
the world.
	Down. A starport may be located on a world surface. If so, the starport is
most frequently referred to by the world name followed by the word Down.
Thus, Sylea Down is the main world surface starport for the world of Sylea.
	Why a surface port? Landing close to the market is convenient for all
concerned. If the environment is at all tolerable, then life support and
labor costs are minimized.
	Highport. A starport may be located in orbit above a world. If so, it is
most frequently referred to by the world name followed by Highport. Thus,
Sylea Highport is the main orbital starport for Sylea. A highport maintains
scheduled links by shuttle with the world surface (if there is no surface
starport, then with an air transport hub).
	Why a highport? Many very large ships never land on a world surface; the
cargo they carry is off-loaded in orbit and shuttled down. Some worlds are
naturally inhospitable (bad surface weather, a water world, fluid oceans, or
perhaps government type D or E) and ship owners prefer not to risk their
equipment venturing down to the surface.
	Spaceports. There is typically one major starport in a star system. Other
facilities, especially those on smaller, less important worlds in a system,
are called spaceports. They are established primarily to foster in-system
travel.
	Good spaceports are often established in support of farming projects, mining
projects, or small colonies.

Starport Type
	Starport type is based on a simple letter classification system (ranging
from A to E) which details their basic facilities.
	A. Excellent quality facility with refined and unrefined fuel available on
site. Facilities include capability to perform annual overhaul and new ship
construction (QSDS certified designs). A naval base may be present. A scout
base is usually not present. A surface installation is present. A highport
may be present (generally if the world atmosphere is 2+).
	B. Good quality starport with refined and unrefined fuel available on site.
Facilities include capability to perform annual overhaul and new spacecraft
construction (QSDS certified designs). A naval base may be present. A scout
base may be present. A surface installation is present. A highport may be
present (generally if the world atmosphere is 2+).
	C. Routine quality starport with unrefined fuel available on site.
Facilities include some capability for repair (primarily replacement of
QSDS-certified parts). A naval base is usually not present. A scout base may
be present. A surface installation is present. A highport is usually not
present.
	D. Poor quality starport with unrefined fuel available on site or close by.
It has no repair or construction facilities. A naval base is not present. A
scout base may be present. A surface installation is present. A highport is
not present.
	E. Frontier starport. With no facilities, the installation is little more
than a flat expanse of bedrock and a sign. This designation effectively means
there is no starport.

Spaceports
	Worlds other than the mainworld in a system may also have spaceports.
	F. Routine quality spaceport with unrefined fuel available on site and minor
repair facilities. A system defense field may be present. A military base may
be present. A surface installation is present. There is no highport. This
designation is a poor cousin to starport type B.
	G. Poor quality installation with unrefined fuel available nearby. No repair
facilities are available. A system defense field may be present. A military
base may be present. A surface installation is present. There is no highport.
This designation is a poor cousin to starport type C.
	H. Primitive quality installation with no facilities beyond a beacon
identifying the location. Unrefined fuel may be available nearby. This is a
surface installation; there is no highport. A system defense field may be
present. A military base may be present. This designation is a poor cousin to
starport type D.
	Y. No spaceport. This designation is the equivalent to starport type E.

THE ELEMENTS OF THE STARPORT
	A starport at its simplest is a bare spot of bedrock capable of supporting a
ship which wants to land. The remaining elements of a starport are added
later to support and maintain the traffic that passes through the port.

The Basic Elements
	Each starport is characterized by a few basic elements. Without them, the
starport is not really a starport.
	The Beacon. The location of the starport is broadcast throughout the system
from a central beacon. At its simplest, the beacon puts out a continuous tone
which allows ships to home on its position. In more complex systems, the
beacon provides range and position information for ships in the system,
traffic control information on sister frequencies.
	The Landing Pad. Starships approach from beyond the atmosphere. When
starships set down, most make use of their lifters in order to make a smooth,
relatively slow approach along designated approach corridors. To deal with
ships  with disabled lifters, or for ships which use lifting surfaces, the
landing pad includes long, broad runways.
	For highports, this a designated holding area.
	Traffic Control Facility. Space traffic controllers provide basic
information to ships within the system, vectoring them safely in their
approaches or departures. The traffic control facilities are located at the
starport. In some systems, an auxiliary control facility is located in an
outer orbit.

The Terminal
	The starport terminal houses the basic services for passengers and freight.
	The Concourse. Passenger services are handled at the concourse. Ticketing,
baggage check, and final boarding all take place at this facility.
	Freight Docks. Freight (materials carried by ships for a fee) is loaded and
unloaded at the freight docks. Speculative cargoes are held until sold at the
exchange.
	Customs and Immigration. Applicable laws concerning the people and goods
moving to the world are enforced by Customs and Immigration.
	The Exchange. Speculative cargo is bought and sold at the Exchange. A
variety of brokers handle the transactions and make the process=20
	Accommodations. Passengers passing through the starport can stay overnight
at the starport hotel, buy meals at a variety of restaurants, purchase basic
goods and souvenirs at the shops, and pass time at theaters or entertainment
complexes. The level of accommodation available varies widely.
	Data Terminals. Information is available about the world, its products and
services, and recreation at a variety of data terminals. On some worlds, the
data terminal may be a computer; on others, they may be staff people with
prodigious memories; on yet others, they may be librarians).
	Message Center. Access to communications, including physical mail,
electronic mail, telephone, and video is generally available at the message
center.
	Emergency Medical. Suitable facilities are provided for emergency medical
treatment. The medical staff has the training and experience to deal with a
wide variety of medical emergencies.

Peripheral Facilities
	Situated around the edges of the starport are a variety of associated
activities and facilities.
	Starport Defense Establishment (SDE). In addition to security personnel (who
function as police), a starport may have an SDE (with a military function).
The SDE is established to defend the starport against organized assault, and
its equipment may include troops, fighter craft, missile defenses, and
artillery. The SDE, to maintain its independence from the the local world, is
often a mercenary force specifically created for the job.
	Since an SDE is rarely larger than absolutely necessary, it is possible to
gauge the local perceived threats to a starport by observing the size and
equipment of the LDE.
	Scout Base. The scout service (whether of the Imperium or of some other
interstellar community) may maintain a port facility for the support and
maintenance of its vessels (including those vessels which it may have out on
loan to detached duty scouts). It is possible that the world on which a scout
base is located is not a member of the  interstellar community which the
scout service serves.
	Many scout bases make the information they have accumulated available
outside of their service (including maps, charts, and world surveys).
	Naval Base. The Navy (whether of the Imperium or of some other interstellar
community) may maintain a port facility for the support and maintenance of
its vessels. The base includes administration sections, warehouse for
provisions and resupply, and some security personnel.
	The continuing interest of naval personnel in their career area makes naval
bases favorite stopovers for veterans (even of other navies).
	Sometimes a specific naval base may be considerably more extensive than the
typical installation. Their facilities and equipment come to dominate the
starport rather than complement it.
	System Defense Field. The interplanetary defense forces of a system may
maintain a facility for the support of their vessels (system defense boats)
as they rotate off station from the outer reaches of the systems. The field
has a minimum of facilities (provisions are trucked in when needed; repair
trucks call as required).
	Shipyard. Ships are built at shipyards. For ships of moderate size which
will be streamlined and capable of landing on worlds, construction often
takes place on world surfaces at starport shipyards.
	Most shipyards specialize in the construction of a specific assembly (which
local industry has shown itself capable of producing) such as jump drives,
avionics, detectors, or even stateroom modules. Other components are
purchased from other shipyards and imported as part of the QSDS-certified
parts system.
	Warehouses on-site store components until they are ready for assembly. Ships
themselves are constucted in open-air bays (or in enclosed assembly
structures if the local environment requires).
	Repair Facility. Minor repairs to ships are often accomplished on the
landing pad. More complex or extensive repairs require that the ships be
moved to the repair bays at the edge of the starport. Support installations
near the bays house the instrumentation and equipment necessary for repairs.
	Transport Hub. The starport is usually integrated into the global
transportation net, and arriving passengers transfer from the terminal to the
transport hubs. Depending on the world, the hubs may support sea or undersea
transport, air transport, or ground rail transport. In addition, personal
vehicle rental may be available.
	Industry. Many industrial processes are best carried out in zero-G and/or
vacuum. What better place for such operations than adjacent to a major
orbital transportation center? Industrial modules attached to the Highport
create products or commodities which benefit from immediate access to the
ships calling at the port. Some factories have long-term supply contracts
with the highport itself.

Organization
	A starport has an organizational structure which includes a leader and a
mission; the details of each starport are different, although they are
generally variations on a basic theme.
	The Port Authority. Regardless of the local government in power at the
starport, the governing authority for the facility is the Port Authority.
Financed by a variety of charges and levies on passengers, cargo, and ships,
the Authority uses its money to build and maintain its facilities, and to
provide variety of services. Like starports, Port Authorities vary widely in
structure and approach to their responsibilities. Some are strong corporate
organizations devoted to the pursuit of profit; others are non-profit
organizations which view their responsibilities more as services to the
citizenry; yet others consider themselves a quasi-official arm of local
government.
	The Port Warden. The person in complete charge of the starport is the Port
Warden. Appointed by the Port Authority, the Warden is the chief executive
officer for the facility, and wields great, but not unlimited power.
	The Mission of the Starport. The starport, as an organization, is committed
to a mission (although that mission may not be clearly or publicly stated).
Typical missions are:
		To efficiently provide facilities and services necessary to accommodate
interplanetary and interstellar traffic for this world.
		To produce a maximum of income for the organization which operates this
starport.
		To insulate this world, to the maximum extent possible, from outside
influences.
		To meet the minimum requirements for maintaining interstellar trade.
	Regulation Enforcement. The police and security arm of the Port Authority
has the responsibility of protecting the orderly operation of the starport
and of enforcing its regulations. It consists of enforcers and emergency
techs.
	The typical enforcer carries out the role of helpful police officer, often
assisting passengers in mundane tasks. Behind the scenes, however, a
stronger, better armed force stands ready to back them up if necessary.
	Emergency techs provide basic services such as paramedical response, rescue
operations, and fire fighting. Emergency tech stations are situated
throughout the starport, providing the ability to make a quick response
anywhere within the starport=92s boundaries.

Each Starport Is Unique
	Starports vary widely due to the circumstances and environment in which they
exist. When the differences in world size, atmosphere, and hydrographics are
coupled with population and technological levels, government, and trade
classifications, it becomes clear that each starport is an individual
facility.

UNOFFICIAL FACILITIES
	Not all facilities at a starport come under the jurisdiction of the Port
Authority.
	The Scout Lounge. Those who conduct surveys of star systems and who
continually venture out into unexplored or under-explored space are a special
type of people. After long periods of time alone or with their fellow crew,
they naturally gravitate to others of their kind... to share stories and
experiences which may help them survive. The typical starport has a Scout
Lounge for this type of people.
	The Scout Lounge is usually operates as a semi-private club; theoretically
anyone can use its services, but in practice it is only patronized
comfortably by scouts (and those with an affinity for scouts).
	The Hiring Hall. Crew members looking for work gather at the hiring hall.
Ships calling at the starport look first to the hiring hall when they need
new or replacement crew. Because of ship schedules which must be met, it is
possible for a crew person to be hired and off world within a few hours
notice.
	The Lone Star. Many starports have a recreation facility which welcomes and
serves all comers. At its tables, people meet and enjoy light music or video,
conversation, and meals. To many the Lone Star is an opportunity to meet
others on a casual basis, to develop acquaintances, and even grow them into
friendships.
	The Traveller=92s Aid Society. Some individuals make travel their primary
vocation. If they are able, they join the Traveller=92s Aid Society, which
provides facilities to its members. The Traveller=92s Aid Society is a joint
operation of several large hotel chains, which provide the facilities within
or adjacent to their own hotels and restaurants.
	Members join by depositing a large sum of money as annuity, with the
proceeds paying for the benefits they receive.
	Startown. Although starports are often established near large cities, the
community which springs up at the gates to the starport has come to be called
(generically) Startown. This community is the home of many of the starport
employees and houses many stores, restaurants, and bars that serve those who
want to wander outside of the starport=92s boundaries.

UNDERSTANDING STARPORTS
	The key to understanding a starport is a continuing awareness of its
purpose. Starports exist to foster traffic, and thus trade, between the
stars. Governments may attempt to control or suppress the activities of
starports, but when they do, they naturally suppress the benefits of trade
and commerce for their worlds. The natural state of starports is to flourish;
if the starport=92s world has resource which can be profitably marketed to
other worlds, the starport generate economic benefit.
	Extra-Territoriality. In order to foster interstellar traffic, starports are
extra-territorial. Just as embassies are treated as if they are the territory
of their owning nations, starports are treated like they are off-world space.
Passengers and crew alike are allowed to leave their starships and wander
freely (subject to security and safety restrictions) throughout a starport.
Goods are not subject to customs or taxes until they leave a starport. The
laws of the world do not apply to until a traveller leaves the starport.
	Law and Order. There must be some law and order within a starport, and the
means of achieving that order is the local Starport Regulations. Established
by the Port Authority, these regulations define in detail what behaviors are
permitted and prohibited. For most people, ordinary behavior is sufficient to
stay within the regulations. Strange requirements are typically posted
clearly.
	Ship Construction and Repair. Starships and spacecraft require an extensive
system of construction and repair sites, and the overhead of designing and
maintaining the many parts which go into ships can be overwhelming.
Consequently, many starports subscribe to the QSDS (Quality Ship Design
Scheme): a set of standard component specifications which are manufactured on
worlds with the appropriate tech level and industrial capacity, but which can
be assembled and maintained at any starport of the appropriate type,
regardless of local tech level or industrial capacity.
	Money. Ultimately, every starport must make money if it is to remain in
operation. Starports cannot give their services away, but most find a way to
hide those charges away from the consuming public. Restaurant charges include
a surcharge; starship lines pay a portion of their ticket price and freight
charges to the starport. Since all of this is concealed from the typical
passenger, the impression is that the starport is a free facility.

STARPORT AMBIENCE
	The ambience of the starport is of prime importance. When travellers arrive
at a starport the atmosphere and the condition of the facilities create an
impression that will stay with them for a long time. This impression (and the
elaboration of this impression) develops over time.
	The appearance of a starport may range from modern or new to old and
decayed.
	The staff of a starport may be respectful and attentive, or rude and
obnoxious.
	Officials may be straightforward and honest, or they may be corrupt and
self-serving.=09

MANY DIFFERENT STARPORTS
	Starports vary in the way their provide their services. Major influences on
them include the world trade classifications, the elements of the UWP, and
other less clear factors.
	Water World. With land at a premium, starships land in the water (perhaps
sheltered by natural or artificial islands) and are serviced by boats.
	Asteroid Belt. Ships dock in the microgravity of an asteroid.
	Storms. If a world has an exceptionally turbulent atmosphere, most traffic
may choose to call at the highport and shuttle down on craft specifically
engineered for local conditions.

THE STARPORT VISIT
	A ship entering a star system leaves jump space approximately 100 stellar
diameters out (typically at interplanetary range). The approach to the
starport takes perhaps a day, during which the appropriate radio contact and
identification procedure completed.
	At the world, the ship completes a landing maneuver while in voice and data
contact with the local space traffic controller.
	Once at the surface, the ship settles into its assigned landing bay.=20

(more)


ENCOUNTERS
	Where.
	Who.
	Why.
	Events.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1080
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 14 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1081



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Solomani Rim Recon...
Re: Homo Antiquitus
Re: Solomani Rim Reconaisance
Re: Here's what I want to see.
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
Re: [T97#1068] Highports
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
Re: Here's what I want to see.
Prizes in the Navy
Re: Orbital stations question rantish reply
Re: Martial Arts
Re: Lost THUDDD Entry
Re: Solomani Rim Reconnaissance
[Traveller Answer] Grav Drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:15:30 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Solomani Rim Recon...

Michael Barry wrote:

<<I remember the rationale for the Zhodani Core Expeditions - an Ancient
artifact callin' them home - but did anybody explain why the Solomani
would have gone to the effort of exploring out towards the rim?
Especially so _far_ !>>

Because it's out there.

cf Solomani love of adventure, independence in S&A by DGP.

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:31:18 -0500
From: Robert Beck <beck@mail.all-net.net>
Subject: Re: Homo Antiquitus

At 06:58 AM 3/13/97 +0100, Hans wrote:
>Robert Flammang writes:
>>>From: Joseph Chepe Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
>> 
>>>I have some notes about the Acheron of my own design: they're of
Neanderthal
>>>heritage (CT Library Data implies not all minor human races are of Homo
>>>sapiens: some are merely Homo).  They spent centuries living underground
>> 
>>    (1) Neadertals were (probably) H. sapiens.  This has recently come
>>    into doubt in some circles though.
>> 
>>    (2) Neanderthals lived 30-100 thousand years ago, long after the
>>    ancients had come and gone. This is much more certain.
>> 
>>    I recommend H. erectus as an alternative.  Erectus died out about 100
>>    thousand years ago.  There were other human species around at that
>>    time too, I think. (H. afarensis? H. heidelbergensis? H. rudolfus?  I
>>    can't really recall offhand.)
>
>In the Traveller universe the individuals that the Ancients took from Earth
>300,000 years ago (which I have dubbed Homo Antiquitus - Ancient Man) were 
>Homo Sapiens, regardless of what science may conclude about things in the 
>Real World (tm). 

Ok, so now I'm being nitpicky, but just as a fun fact to know and tell, the
hominids that were H. sapiens 300k years ago did not look like the humans
that run around cluttering up the Earth in our present. About 40-60kya, of
course anthropologists can't give us an exact date, anatomically modern
(a.m.) H. sapiens started popping up all over the globe and archaic H.
sapiens started to disappear. The characteristic features of this new
organism were almost entirely in the skull. The occipital bun (the point in
the back) of the skull vanished, as did the protruding jaws (except in some
football players-cheap shot, but I was a football player, so what the hell) ;)
The features were more that of what had previously been premature H.
sapiens. There haven't been many convincing theories to explain the abrupt
change in skull characteristics other than possibly a reduced reliance on
needing to chew and tear extremely tough food or leather for tools and the
recession of the glaciers, radically altering what they had to eat. The
occipital bun and strong protruding jaw exist in primates and our
ancestors, with powerful jaw muscles connecting in the back of the skull
kind of like an anchoring point. As we developed into what we like to call
civilization, it is theorized that there was less need for the ability to
eat unprepared, scavenged food that would require such strong jaw muscles.
It's a bit weak, but it's all they  have last I heard. You could go that or
if you wanted to be really adventurous you could play around with
explanations by people like Zechariah Sitchin or Will Bramley (but not Von
Daniken *blech*).
Archaic H. sapiens and a.m. H. sapiens (enough periods for you?) were by
all indications completely interfertile and the archaics shared many
features with what we now call classic Neandertals, which, it would seem,
were a very strongly glacially adapted subspecies that probably melded its
way back into the main sapiens populations with the recession of the
Pleistocene glaciations. 
An interesting divergence off this would be, are there still human
subspecies that have the archaic look, and how would that affect their
cultural growth? What they eat and how civilization developed for them.
Always someway to link it back to traveller. :)

Rob.  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:09:19 GMT
From: Eamon Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Reconaisance

> From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
> Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Reconaisance
> 
> On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Eamon Patrick Watters wrote:
> > Michael Barry sent:
> > 
> > >I remember the rationale for the Zhodani Core Expeditions - an Ancient
> > >artifact callin' them home - but did anybody explain why the Solomani
> > >would have gone to the effort of exploring out towards the rim?
> > >Especially so _far_ !
> > 
> > I saw a lot of the Colonies being set up during the Nth Interstellar War 
> > between the First Imperium and the Terran Confederation. They were 
> > insurance policies against the Terran losing. I made one up for TNE that 
> > was colonized by Ramship. They went about 300 parsecs rimward from Terra 
> > - just to be sure the Imperium couldn't reach them. 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, but why were they travelling by ramjet?  Granted,
> 300 parsecs without stopping for maintenance would be pretty hard on a
> ship's jump drive, but at 2/parsecs per week (a reasonable average,
> assuming the colony ships were capable of 3 parsec jumps, but sometimes
> had to take detours, breaks for repairs, and so forth), it would only be a
> 3-year mission, instead of a 300-year one.  With three jump drives aboard,
> you wouldn't have to use any one of them for more than a year.  Colony
> ships with lots of redundant systems would have no trouble making this
> journey (of course, a while ago, I tried to argue for a jump-capable,
> ramscoop-refuelled colony ship intended to go to the *Large Magellanic
> Cloud*, a mere *50 kiloparsecs* away, so I may put a little too much faith
> in robust engineering, redundancy, and on-board maintenance...just a quick
> disclaimer). 
>                                                               
> 
They were not only trying to escape in space, but also in time. The mission sponsor figured that even if 
the Villani discovered the existance of the mission, they'd be far enough away in space and time that 
they wouldn't bother chasing them.

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 20:38:38 +0000
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

> Where does it say you can't play active duty military?  I'm currently
> setting up a campaign with the characters being the officers and crew of the
> INV Coronation (BB-216), a Regal class 90,000 ton battleship.  We're doing
> Ars Magica style troupe playing; everyone will have several PCs, from the
> bridge cre down to a squad of Marines.

It doesn't say you can't, but it doesn't specifically say you can 
either. I'm familiar with ArsMagica, cool system. At 90 000 tonnes I 
imagine you haven't mapped  out the ship yet. I have t2300, and used to own CT, 
a friend of mine said they didn't have any rules yet for roleplaying 
in the services, he has a copy of TL4.

> >2. Traveller should be more flexible allowing players to make up 
> >their own galaxy to play in. Yes I know you can do this, but little 
> >to no support exists, at least in the older versions.
> 
> Well, you do have the world generation system.  What else do you need?
> Traveller has its offcial backround (the Third Imperium); if you want to do
> something different, go for it.

Does the world generation system create an entire solar system like 
T2300, or does it key on the primary planet like CT?
I'd like to see a system for the creation of alien races, a set of 
rules to develop their biology, and culture. Guildlines for the 
creation of alliances, and wars. In short the politcal makeup of the 
empires, and republics that make up a universe. Sure I can develop 
this myself, but It would be a ton of work making my own guidlines 
and I pay gamedesigners to make that job easier.

I'm not saying that I don't like the traveller setting I think it's 
great, but I haven't liked recent developements. The Empress 
Wave, and the virus are not my cup of tea. It's like the creators 
painted themselves into a corner, and could only escape it by 
travelling back in time.

I'm a great fan of Space Navy science fiction, I can't get enough of 
the stuff.  I'd like to have an easy, and good system to simulate it.
I'm curious as to whether the latest version of traveller is the 
system that I'm looking for. I don't like the tech 12 limit it seems 
a step backward. I wouldn't mind playing in the eariler eras, but 
think the game mechanics should still handle higher tech levels.
Does the latest version handle clones, robots, androids,cybernetics, 
biological engineered organisms, or does it leave it all up to the GM.

Teraforming rules, and a writeup would be cool, to bring in another 
thread.

> 
> Dig up the Traveller alien module (7?) about them, the DGP module solomani
> and Aslan (aka Rats and Cats), The issue of The Traveller Digest that
> featured Earth (16?), and you have quite a bit of source material.

I live in a small city, our game stores aren't all that hot. Thanks 
for the leads though. I have an friend near detroit who can get me 
stuff, like a copy of FF&S hey, hey. Just ordered it. Sorry, he only works 
for friends.

After I get a copy of FF&S I'll try my hand at designing some ships, 
I loved travellers ship construction.

> >Vanquisher of all foes.
> 
> Except the last one...

Ya, but I'm hedging my bets on that one. I'm a proponent of Pascal's 
wager. 

Vance Scott

Vanquisher of all foes.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:56:02 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal

At 04:28 pm 03/12/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Bill Rutherford wrote:
>
>>This has happened before - what's appropriate response?  Mass replies
>>telling the sender to go away?  
>
>I agree to mass replies. I've already reply twice to the guy and CC to the
>company adress.

	A more effective approach is a nastygram to the originator, his/her
postmaster, and any other email addresses mentioned. First check for
"vanity domains" using whois, and address it to the REAL postmaster. Most
postmasters take these complaints seriously, in my experience. Here's the
my stock reply, as modified, that I fired off.

Dear submoronic cretin (not you, Postmaster),

	This mail was unsolicited, unwanted, uninteresting, and I consider it
harassment. You're using my bandwidth, my mailbox, my paid online time, my
download time, my hard disk and my personal time to screen an unwelcome,
worthless piece of junk. Remove my name at once from your mailing lists,
and do not ever bother me again. There are many places on the Internet to
advertise your services, but my mailbox isn't one of them. If I wanted a
service I'd go where ads are appropriate and search for it. I will never
utilize a service nor a product from a company which uses spam to solicit
business.

Dear Postmaster,

	Can you please help stop this growing cancer across the Internet?
Unsolicited commercial mail is going to be the ruin of another potentially
useful technology if it isn't solved by the users. Further more, this pile
of cow dung was posted to a dedicated mailing list, where it is ABSOLUTELY
unappropriate. This crap is really getting out of hand, and I ask your help
in stomping out the jackasses such as the original author of the bilge
below. Thank you.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 20:59:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1068] Highports

T::>Why NOT huge L5 colonies or ramshackle, sprawling 'anchored' starship
 ::>towns, like some of the houseboat neighborhoods/shanty towns we have in
 ::>various port cities, or melted planetoid balls, or giant Borg-ish
 ::>city/ships, or hell...didn't James Blish send Pittsburg off into space at
 ::>one point???(Cities in Flight).

 Pittsburgh, Scranton, New York, Buda-Pesht (Budapest), Dresden,
 and a whole host of others - those were just the ones that were
 named.  But he did some tech handwaving which I'm not convinced
 is compatible with Traveller, and I'm not even thinking about
 the spindizzy as space-drive and meteor-shield.  Remember that
 it was by implication routine for cities to spend _years_
 without making port on a naturally-habitable planet; consider
 the problem of air cleansing and replenishment alone.

T::>Yes there are numerous holes in both the theory and the hull, but
 ::>!#@$!#!@, it Traveller is a game of imagination!!! We can't possibly
 ::>imagine what life is going to be like in the year 0 of the Third Imperium,
 ::>so why do we persist so in saying what is/isn't possible or desirable,
 ::>based on 20th century thinking!

 Just remember, the more cubic miles of space you have inside
 that sucker, the thinner your hull is.  Also, the more clear
 span you have inside, the flimsier that section of the hull is,
 for a given thickness.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  It is pitch dark.  You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:12:27 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal

At 11:07 am 03/12/97 -0700, you wrote:

>	well (I can't believe I'm doing this...:-0) We might want to hold
>off on the 500 C replies just yet...this could well be a relatively
>innocent mistake. After all, from the perspective of someone outside
>looking at just the name of this mailing list, this could well be
>perfectly appropriate material. Not like the infamous Olga and her
>desireable Russian women she was hawking last time the list was spammed.
>
>	The guy COULD have made an innocent blunder thinking, perhaps that
>this was a list devoted to saaaay the Conde Nast magazine 'Traveller',
>which IS about travel and resorts, etc, and whose members would be
>interested in what they had to offer?? 

	Any submoronic cretin who signs up for an unknown mailing list for the
sole purpose of sending his post-digestive remnants deserves what he (or
she--not all cretins are male, just most of us) gets. No honest mistakes
are possible, because if this person had spent 2 minutes reading the
content of this list, its intent would be clear.

	OK, so I'm very low-spam-tolerant. I've spent three months trying to get
the jackasses at iq-internet.com out of my mailbox, and it finally took a
150K collection of their crap sent to all the Sprintlink addresses I could
find before I could even get a response.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:52:32 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

At 12:30 pm 03/14/97 +0200, you wrote:
>
>	I hate to beat a dead horse, but this issue has surfaced so
>	often that I would like to make an official Traveller question.
>
>	So, once again: When we are designing starships and vehicles,
>	should we use Contragravity [CG] lifters or Antigravity [AG]
>	thrusters ?
>
> Why I want to make this question?
>
>	T4 was supposed to use "grav thrusters that can provide both
>	lift and thrust". Since contragravity lifters can't provide
>	thrust, I assumed that T4 used antigravity thrusters.
>
>	Presently it seems that some designers use CG while other use
>	AG. However, because of their basic principles these systems are
>	mutually exclusive and do not easily fit into the same universe.
>
> What are the differences between CG and AG?
>
>	Contragravity generates a spherical field where gravitional
>	attraction is nullified. CG vehicles can be used as lighter-than-
>	air (or lighter-than-anything) vehicles, and require separate
>	thruster engine to move around.
>
>	Antigravity thruster is direct thrust engine that pushes against
>	local gravity field. AG vehicles may use part of their thrust
>	for hovering (like a helicopter), and use remaining thrust for
>	acceleration.

	*SIGH* The original intent was that CONTRAGRAVITY=ANTIGRAVITY and
THRUSTERS (_not_ antigravity) were two different things, but

		CONTRAGRAVITY in T4 was NOT supposed to be the same as CG in TNE. It
_was_ intended to provide both thrust and lift.

	The difference between CG and Thrusters lay in their cost, mass, and
performance outside a gravity field.

	-- The heretic Famine, of the Four Horsemen of Traveller
	-- SSDS design system coordinator
	-- I take no credit for what "Starships" turned out to be
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:39:54 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

At 07:42 pm 03/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Traveller always had a couple of failings, and I would love to see 
>them addressed in the latest version.
>
>1. Not being able to play in the services, why characters must be 
>retired hasbeens has never really made sense to me.

	Huh? Who wrote you can't play in the service? I've always interpreted
"mustering out" or "failing" survival roll as the end of character
generation. Doesn't mean the character actually left, that's just where the
game starts. When I needed a navy crew, I generated them until they were at
the appropriate rank and experience for their position, and then started
playing. So if you want to play a Naval Commander, generate the character,
and go for it!


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:27:41 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Prizes in the Navy

I've been flipping through Patrick O'Brian's "Aubrey" books -- Royal Navy
in the early 19th century -- and have been impressed by how much time and
energy was expended by the naval captains on the capturing of *prizes*.
These were either enemy warships or enemy merchantmen which were sold by
the Navy, with a certain share of the proceeds going to the captain and
crew of the capturing ship.

This was a good system for encouraging captains to energetically pursue
enemy shipping without blowing everything out of the water, and it was a
good source of warships, since most of those captured would be repaired and
put back to sea under the capturing flag.

This would seem to be a natural addition to Traveller:  PCs with Scoutships
or other mercenary craft could seek and be given letters of Marque, and
those in active duty would be encouraged to fight more strenuously for
promotion and their increased share of prizes.  Then too there could easily
be other parallels: just as the French had better-built ships (but not as
well-sailed early on), maybe the Solomani build great ships in the 1000-ton
range, so that any sector Admiral would do anything she could to get ahold
of one.  

Thoughts?

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:32:45 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Orbital stations question rantish reply

At 07:28 am 03/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 10:28 AM 3/13/97 +0100, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
>>I agree with you about imagining 
>>BUT I remember an 30's american movie which story was supposed to take
>>place in 80's. They've stated that every body would have a personnal plane
>>and would got to work by air. Seem to be wrong. 
>>
>>Today's The small personnal planes are 50's techno. The prices of such
>>devices aren't reduced because we are able to build the F117 or the space
>>shuttle. Such simple planes are expensive, even if it's an old technology.
>>How many of you have one?
>
>Well this isn't _quite_ true.  The reasons more people don't buy and fly
>airplanes is not because the airframe technology hasn't kept up, or because
>they're so expensive.  At least in the US, you can buy or make an airplane
>for less than the cost of a car -- I have a friend who has just hand-built
>a non-metallic carbon-fiber composite airplane for very little money
>(hardly 1950s technology!).  The bottlenecks come in with training,
>licensing, airport fees, and other forms of governmental and corporate
>regulation.  Further, with the advent of a successful highway system, the
>need for more complex and potentially dangerous local air traffic has been
>markedly reduced.  

	The main reason General Aviation has been in such a slump is due to an
interaction between an unpleasant subspecies of lawyer and the typical
American desire to blame others for one's own problem. Cessna got out of
the GA aircraft market because, until recently, it was possible for an
idiot to buy a 20-year old poorly maintained plane, not bother to maintain
it, crash it, and sue the original manufacturer for megabucks.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:58:46 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:
>     Just out of curiousity, have you ever sparred with a Senior Black Belt?
> Third Dan or above?

Regarding my total skepticism of all oriental martial arts:
I have yet to see a training studio that does not have at least twenty trophies in its front 
window (and it has usually been open for 2 months. This indicates to me that it is largely 
malarkey.

Regarding effectiveness of martial artists:
the actual fighting skill is secondary to the discipline. Unless it is from a studio with 40+ 
trophies after being open for a month, a person highly ranked is probably in VERY good 
condition. I am currently not. Right now, a determined 12 year old would probably mop the 
floor with my face.

Regarding the effectiveness of real martial arts:
I believe you have forgotten several of the basic rules
1) bigger IS stronger
2) do not fight unarmed against armed and
3) ninja-schminja, ya can't karate chop a bullet

I believe in the art of ching-chunk (sound of SMG being cocked)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:04:31 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@netins.net>
Subject: Re: Lost THUDDD Entry

Dr. Clark Wrote:
>  As for this contest, my ideal ship (a combination of the entries) would
>have a meson gun, some lasers and sandcasters, some screening, two 50T mod
>cutters, some fighters (2 to 4), small staterooms for the troops, and a
>fair amount of cargo space - at least 60 tons.  To get that within the
>1000T hull range you'd need to go J2 M2, I think - J3 just takes up too
>much space.

I have question, not just for Dr. Clark, but for others. Why does every like the modular cutters for
this ship? Is it becuase the happy fun ball uses them? Or is the the modular multi-mission aspect?

I personally don't like the cutter in this situation - because I want to get all of the troops and gear
on the ground quick and safe. While the cutters can transport some 60 people (and gear, if
you play with the numbers), it does so in two ships. Thus, two shots - and all your troops are
gone. Plus, all your troops have to be deployed in one location, or your ships have got to 
hopscotch around the LZ.

I prefer (and this is just my opinion - my preference is more expensive) a larger group of
smaller landing craft - in my case, one landing craft for each squad, capable of carrying
the squad and its APC. By giving each squad their own ship, I increase survivability plus allow
simultaneous deployment to distant areas.

Just curious about peoples opinions about this...or am I taking this way too seriously? :)


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@netins.net - http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/   |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:31:55 -0400
From: Christian Razukas <chrisraz@clark.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Reconnaissance

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Michael Barry wrote:

> I remember the rationale for the Zhodani Core Expeditions - an Ancient
> artifact callin' them home - but did anybody explain why the Solomani
> would have gone to the effort of exploring out towards the rim?
> Especially so _far_ !

then pengebos@NMSU.Edu wrote:

1- Because the Imperium was in the way of exploring the richer worlds to
coreward.

2- (My Favorite) Monkey Curiosity.  They just HAD to know what was out
there.


According to the Solomani and Aslan Alien Module, the Solomani Rim
Expeditions occurred from 5628 - 5624 AD (or 1047 - 1103 Imperial).
Seventeen "home ships" were sent rimward and all but three returned.  The
timing of the expeditions implies that the Solomani were searching for
resources and riches towards their unexplored galactic rim.

And who knows how many Solomani expeditions went rimward around the time of
the Nth Interstellar War, seeking freedom, riches or excitement?  Who knows
how they prospered during the Long Night?  Who knows what empires the lost
home ships may have begun?  And who knows how they'll fare after the Virus
- - if it gets that far?.

The K'Kree, Vargr, Hiver, Zhodani, Imperial and Aslan can squabble over
known space like some far future game of Risk - whether it's Milleu 0 or
1100.  Though I despise the thought of Science-Fiction Roleplaying in the
Totalitarian Future, it seems the Solomani are among the few going where no
one has gone before.

Onward, onward, onward!

- ---------------------------------
chrisraz@clark.net
The Cosine of the Beast = .99984437405678

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 23:10:03 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Grav Drives

Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi> asks:
> When we are designing starships and vehicles,	should we use
> Contragravity [CG] lifters or Antigravity [AG] thrusters ?

As far as I know, there aren't any "Antigravity thrusters" in T4.  I'll
assume you are referring to Contra-Gravity Lifters ("CG Lifters") and 
thrust plates ("T-Plates"), both of which operate on gravitic principles. 
The rest of my answer is based on that assumption.

> 	T4 was supposed to use "grav thrusters that can provide both
> 	lift and thrust". Since contragravity lifters can't provide
> 	thrust, I assumed that T4 used antigravity thrusters.

Your conception of the two types of drive doesn't match my conception of
CG Lifters or T-Plates.  This is not, in itself, a problem; but I think
I'd beter explain how I concieve of T-plates and CG Lifters.  Hopefully then
things will make more sense.


Contragravity lifters produce "lift" (counteracting the weight of a ship or
vehicle) by interacting with the local gravity field.  CG Lifters have a
surface area requirement, and (by extension) some type of "lift panel" or
"gravitic module" on the outer surface of the hull.  By providing additional
CG Lifters (and configuring them appropriately), it is possible to more than
cancel the weight of the ship or vehicle.  This extra lift can be vectored
(perhaps by moving the panels, or perhaps electronically using differential
thrust on a number of small panels) to provide propulsion.

Because CG Lifters provide lift and propulsion by direct interaction with a
world's gravity field, the actual performance of a CG Lifter equipped craft
will change depending on the world's gravity.  The rated performance will
only be achieved in a 1.00G field.  Performance is proportionally higher in
a high gravity field, or lower in a low gravity field.  In addition, there
is a critical gravitational field strength below which the CG Lifters are
unable to function.  Thrust drops beginning approximately 1 planetary
diameter from the surface of a world, and falls to nearly nothing
beyond 10 diameters.

Because the craft's aparrent weight also varies in proportion to the local
gravity, the CG Lifters are always able to cancel a craft's weight.  The
additional thrust (and therefore the vehicle's performance) will vary with
the local gravity - a CG Lifter propelled air/raft that has 1.5G
accelleration on Earth will only have 0.75G acelleration on a world with a
gravity of 0.5G, but would be capable of 3G on a 2G world.

Because of the distance limit for CG Lifters (within 10 diameters of a
world, and ideally within one diameter), and because performance varies from
world to world, CG Lifters are totally unsuitable as the main drive for a
spaceship (but are extremely useful for take-offs, landings, and skimming
runs).  CG Lifters have more utility as a lift and drive mechanism for
gravitic vehicles.

A bit of history: while QSDS and SSDS were being designed, Dave Golden
specifically wanted to avoid a situation where gravitic vehicles had to have
a separate thrust agency (such as HEPlaR).  Thrust-plates are unsuitable for
many vehicles due to the large minimum size requirement (and for other good
reasons, we couldn't eliminate the minimum size of T-plates).  Therefore, the
concept of contragravity lifters was extended to include the ability to
produce thrust as well as lift.


Thrust Plates are a type of maneuver drive, and provide a ship with thrust.
Like all of the other types of maneuver drives, this thrust is a force which
acts on the drive, and is transmitted to the ship via the drive mountings.

Like the other maneuver drives, T-plates produce thrust along a single
vector.  The drive must be moved (gimballed) to alter the thrust's vector.
Alternately, multiple drive units may be installed; by varying the power to
each unit, a limited amount of thrust vectoring may be produced (this is
vectoring by differential thrust).

Unlike the other maneuver drives, T-plates are often termed "reactionless",
because they do not consume fuel and don't eject reaction mass from the
ship.  The drive operates on gravitic principles, but the thrust produced is
independent of the strength of the local gravity field.  Thrust plates do
require a nearby large mass (such as a star or planet) in order to work
effectively ("nearby" in this case is in astronomical terms - approximately
1000 solar diameters)

> 	Large vehicles may float with the same power usage in 1G and
> 	100G gravity fields [using contragravity].

This is still true.

> 	Grav vehicles require separate thrusters to move around. (For
> 	example, a grav belt needs propellers in atmosphere and rockets
> 	in vacuum.)

This is not true.  If the grav vehicle was built with additional lift (or
thrust) over and above its weight, the contragravity system can provide
thrust.  The CG-derived thrust will vary with the local gravity field.  Some
grav vehicles will want other methods of propulsion.

> 	Grav belts cause very interesting secondary effects. (Everything
> 	within CG field is effectively weightless. 

This is no longer quite true, since (at least in my conception) the field is
mostly contained within or very close to the grav module(s).

> 	Most existing starships have only 1G antigravity thruster, and
> 	will not be able to hover on 100G gravity field.

Most ships will have a T-plate drive of 1G (or more, up to 6G or so)
capacity.  Such ships would have to use contragravity systems to hover over
worlds with higher gravities.

> 	Airframed atmospheric grav vehicles (Speeders) may take off and
> 	land vertically using AG thrust, and fly on very high speed using
> 	wings for lift and AG for thrust.

Airframe vehicles without CG Lifters can take off vertically if the thrust
plates are arranged such to allow this.  In cases where no CG Lifters are
installed and  the thrust plates are arranged for forward flight, the
vehicle will require a takeoff roll to achieve flying velocity (at which
point it can be kept aloft by wing lift).

Most VTOL (Vertical Take-Off/Landing) vehicles at TL-9+ would probably
include CG Lifters, and could perform as you describe (slow-speed vertical
take-off, followed by high-speed cruise on HEPlaR or T-Plate thrust).

> 	Grav vehicles can operate in water, atmosphere, and vacuum
> 	without any problems.

Yes.  CG Lifter vehicles would take a long time to reach high orbit, and
would be practically useless for interplanetary travel.

>  End of question. Waiting for answers.

I hope these answers help,


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1081
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1082



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
Terran Confederation Logo?
Re: Lost THUDDD Entry
Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
Re: Every Adventure Begins and Ends at a Starport
Newbie-type questions
Re: Prizes in the Navy
Where are the Aircars?
Re: Here's what I want to see.
Re: THUDD Entries
Re: Homo antiquitus
Thudd Entries
Grenades a slight misconception
Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)
Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Re: Terraforming
Re: Economics...long
Re: Battle Dress
Re: [Traveller Answer] What is Contra-Grav for?
Re: Terraforming

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:29:16 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

Dave wrote:
> 		CONTRAGRAVITY in T4 was NOT supposed to be the same as CG in TNE. It
> _was_ intended to provide both thrust and lift.
> 
> 	The difference between CG and Thrusters lay in their cost, mass, and
> performance outside a gravity field.

This sound like Thrusters provide both lift and thrust.  
However, Guy wrote:

> 1) Thrust Plate maneuver drives provide thrust along a given axis; although
>   the technology is radically different from other types of maneuver
>   drives, the type of thrust produced and what you can do with that thrust,
>   is the same as any other maneuver drive.
>   
>   In particular, Thrust Plates do NOT nullify gravity's effect on the ship,
>   and cannot provide full thrust vectored in any direction.  Just like
>   the other maneuver drives, the thrust plates must vector their thrust by
>   a gimballed mounting, or by differential thrust.
<snippage>
> I believe (and I designed QSDS in this belief) that the standard Imperial
> solution to all of these problems is to include contra-gravity in all ship
> hulls that are intended for planetary landing.
 
This sound like Thruster provide only thrust.  
So I have a few questions.
1) Do Thruster produce only thrust or lift and thrust?
2) Does Contra-Grav provide lift and thrust, or like any other maneuver drive
only thrust?
3) Assuming Thruster produce only thrust will it really be so hard in the far
future to make gimbal mounted Thrusters that instead you install Contra-Grav?

Thanks

Chris Cox
"That'll do pig, that'll do."  A. Hoggett
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
the Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm) 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:50:28 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Terran Confederation Logo?

Im looking for any rendition of the Terran Federation logo (the one during
the Intersteller wars) or was this just the UN symbol?

thanks


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Conflict is the habit of the ages.
Wars amputees sire children eager to mature and take their bloody turn at death.
The Singer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:50:10 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Lost THUDDD Entry

Andrew wrote:
> I have question, not just for Dr. Clark, but for others. Why does every
like the modular cutters for
> this ship? Is it becuase the happy fun ball uses them? Or is the the
modular multi-mission aspect?
<Stuff deleted>
> Just curious about peoples opinions about this...or am I taking this way
too seriously? :)

Since my ship was capable of making planetfall and it had Grav APCs I didn't
see the need for cutters.  Most arguments as to why cutters are better than
the ship can be used for why the APCs are better than cutters and most
arguments for why cutters are better than APCs can be used for why the ship
is better than cutters.  The thing that cutters do allow is performing
multiple missions in space.  I not sure if this added flexibility is needed
in a Merc Cruiser or not. 

Chris Cox
"That'll do pig, that'll do."  A. Hoggett
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
the Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm) 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:58:01 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

>this is an absurd gun by ANY stretch of the imagination, and a worthy (?)
>addition to the FSH catalog.

Roderick, have you ever considered that the violent tendencies of your
players may be encouraged by the kind of toys you give them? Just asking...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:58:09 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Every Adventure Begins and Ends at a Starport

The description of a starport as the focus of adventures is good, but I
question the usefulness of the distinction between "starports" and
"spaceports". I want to know if fuel, repair, passengers, and a highport is
available regardless of whether it's called a "starport" or "spaceport".
The classification system does not seem useful because installations which
are practically identical (C and F, D and G, E and Y) are given different
designations while ports which are significantly different (highports
present/absent, bases present/absent) are given the same designation. I
realize this was used in older material but I had hoped T4 would be able to
keep the best from previous rules and discard the rest.

Consider a system with a dozen shipbuilding ports, 3 orbital space
colonies, and space stations able to refuel and build ships in orbit around
the main world, the asteroid belt, and a gas giant. Consider another system
which only has one shipbuilding port and no space stations or highports.
The rules give both these systems an A classification, though they are
totally different. Consider another two systems which both have no
facilities whatsoever. Yet there are two different designations for these
systems.

Part of the problem, I feel, is the notion that every system will have
exactly one 'main' port. What about systems with several inhabited planets,
or ones with competing governments or port corporations, or ones with
starports at several planets and by gas giants? Even if the rules don't
generate this automatically there should be some way to describe this.

The descriptions of the starport services and facilities is very good.
There should be some mention of the costs and resources concerned with
actually operating a starport.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:58:05 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Newbie-type questions

One of my players watched Hard-Boiled and now insists on using 2 pistols in
combat, one in each hand. So far I have just been using the normal ranged
combat rules and letting him waste twice the ammunition, but he is getting
ticked that he never gets 2 hits. Does anyone have a suggestion for how to
run this? The effect I would like is that extremely skilled shooters will
do, on average, more damage firing with 2 weapons while lesser-skilled ones
will do worse.

I have another newbie-type question that came up in the last session: how
do you prononunce the "hault" that shows up in nobles' names?

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 00:55:26 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Prizes in the Navy

On 03/14/97 at 06:27 PM,  Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net> said:

> I've been flipping through Patrick O'Brian's "Aubrey" books -- Royal Navy
> in the early 19th century -- and have been impressed by how much time and
> energy was expended by the naval captains on the capturing of *prizes*.

> This was a good system for encouraging captains to energetically pursue
> enemy shipping without blowing everything out of the water, and it was a
> good source of warships, since most of those captured would be repaired
> and put back to sea under the capturing flag.

> This would seem to be a natural addition to Traveller:  PCs with
> Scoutships or other mercenary craft could seek and be given letters of
> Marque, and those in active duty would be encouraged to fight more
> strenuously for promotion and their increased share of prizes.  

Mike, I've been promoting this idea for a long time.  You're going to hear
that it won't work in Traveller, because the weapon systems in the game
will turn a defeated ship into a cloud or vapor...or a hunk of useless
junk...not worth capturing or refitting.  

I obviously don't agree.  ;-> I want Letter's of Marque, boarding actions,
and Prize Ships in my games!

I think the trick is to arrange things so that ship systems can be "knocked
out" without being destroyed.  If you can temporarily silence a ship's guns
and maneuver drive, you can call on your victim to surrender...or board,
and take her if she refuses.

Like I said, the trick is arranging things so you can *temporarily* knock
out a ship's systems.  This has been something I've been working toward for
sometime.  One thing I'm playing with is putting pieces of all the weapon
systems, maneuver and jump drives *outside* the ship's armor where they can
be taken out by smaller weapons at long range.  I'm postulating that these
outside pieces are easily and cheaply replaced...once the fighting is over,
but hard to
repair/replace during combat.  The expensive parts stay behind thick,
multiple armored hulls that the long range weapons don't often penetrate.

Ship battles become a contest of blowing off highly redundent
surface features with the occasional critical hit penetrating into the
interior and causing great damage.  Damage control crews rush to repair or
replace damaged surface units and bring weapons and drive units back online
while gunnery crews continue to blast away at each other with remaining
weaponry.  If the damage control crews can't keep up, their ship will
become toothless and unmaneuverable, and her Captain will have the
unenviable choice of surrendering, facing a boarding action, or being
destroyed as the attacker closes into the range of his more powerful (but
*very* short range) weapons.

I'm still scratching my head on what to do about sandblaster surface
attacks from massed fighters.  They can't penetrate a hull or destroy a
ship, but with their numbers can blast the surface features off knocking
weapons and drives offline temporarily.  Of course, that might not be so
bad.  Big ships would still have to close to knock the enemy out, and given
*time* the weapons and drives could be brought back online...still thinking
about this one.

Anyway here are the conditions I think we have to met in order to make
"taking prizes" work:

1.  Weapon and Drive components can be easily damaged at long range,
    but given time can be easily and cheaply repaired.  Ships carry
    multiple replacement parts and given time a Prize Crew can get a
    ship moving.
    
2.  Ships normally duel at long ranges with weapons that don't
    usually penetrate hull armor, but do damage surface components.
    Occasionally, these weapons *do* penetrate doing critical damage.
    
3.  Ships also pack ship killer weapons that can punch through a
    ship's armor, but these weapons have *extremely* short ranges.
    This means if you can't keep your opponent at a distance, you're
    choices are surrender or die.  It also means ship's *won't*
    close until they're reasonably sure they've silenced the other
    sides shortrange weapons.
    
4.  The idea of surrendering is culturally acceptable.  Crews that
    surrender aren't summarily executed or routinely mistreated.
    Pardons and prisoner exchanges are accepted as normal under the
    rules of war.  Captains that have surrendered still have a
    career, a damaged one perhaps, but they *can* get another
    ship..maybe.
    
5.  Boarding is possible, and can succeed without completely
    wreaking a ship.

We can get 1 by going to two part systems (complex, expensive,
irreplaceable parts inside the armor and simple, cheap, easily replaceable
parts outside the armor) for weapons and drives.  We can get 4 from the
culture.  I think we have 5 if we have the other 4. It's 2 and 3 that are
the sticking point!

I think something needs to be done about the weapons. 

Lastly, this only really applies to ships of similar classes.  A 100td
scout gets *creamed* by a 1000td destroyer, that gets *creamed* by a
10,000td cruiser, that gets *creamed* by a 100,000td dreadnaught, that gets
*creamed* by a 500,000td superdreadnaught.

Now, do you have any thoughts on all this? ;->


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 01:05:52 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Where are the Aircars?

On 03/14/97 at 06:32 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:

> 	The main reason General Aviation has been in such a slump is due to an
> interaction between an unpleasant subspecies of lawyer and the typical
> American desire to blame others for one's own problem. Cessna got out of
> the GA aircraft market because, until recently, it was possible for an
> idiot to buy a 20-year old poorly maintained plane, not bother to
> maintain it, crash it, and sue the original manufacturer for
> megabucks.

Too true!  I was going to post something about this, but RL kept me too
busy this week.  The technology is probably here to produce inexpensive and
not too hard to fly "aircars" for general use, but who in their right mind
would manufacture them commercially?  The first time somebody crashed one
the manufacturer would be sued into the poor house.  Sued by the guy that
bought it, by the families of anyone injured by the crash, by anybody with
damaged property, and by anybody else that thought they could get something
out of it! 

I know it doesn't seem reasonable that someone could sue the
manufacturer for crashing their own airplace, but this is the
USA (Usual to Sue All)...unfortunately.  I guess the Imperium has more
reasonable product liability laws? ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 03:30:36 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca> says,

>> Where does it say you can't play active duty military? 
>
>It doesn't say you can't, but it doesn't specifically say you can 
>either.

Actually it does. T4, pg 22, "Mustering Out":

"If the player chose a target age at the beginning of the process, the
character may end the process at exactly this age. If this falls in the
middle of an educational or career term, he begins the adventure portion of
the game still attending that school or involved in that occupation."

But it's true, the focus of the rules is on characters who have left active
service. I think this is appropriate for the basic rules. Books that focus
in great detail on the military services are likely to follow at some
point.

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 04:25:09 -0500
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: THUDD Entries

Thanks to Mark Clark, Idiot/Savant, Derek Wildstar, and Peter Brenton for
commenting on my mercenary cruiser design for THUDD-2. Using their inputs
and the errata for Starship's SSDS rules from James Dempsey's web site, I
think I have corrected the design to reflect the changes to the rules in
Starships, plus my own errors. 

The correction (x14) to the life support values resulted in 4.4 MCr
increase in cost and a 5 Std reduction in cargo space. The armor value USP
is now correctly entered as 30 (80 numerical value). The one year fuel
supply for the power plants is now properly indicated (it was previously
included in the volume calculation). The USP for the Heavy Laser Battery
(two 251J TL12 turret mounted lasers) is now properly calculated. I also
entered the two 60 Std dismountable tanks for the jump fuel in the USP.

I think I've made the corrections properly. Any further corrections,
suggestions, and/or comments would be most welcome. I did quickly look at
increasing the maneuver capability to 3 G's. This could be done, but, with
the additional volume needed for the drive, power plant, and fuel, the
cargo space would be reduced to a very minimal value. Some of that space
could be regained by sacrificing some of the ruggedness of the ship by
reducing the armor and changing from low to standard automation (i.e.,
reducing the crew).

**********
transRift Engineering Corporation 
Warrior-Class Paramilitary Transport (SSDS)

Tons:   600 Std (Needle A/F)    Volume: 8400 m^3   Cost: 421 (378.9) MCr
Crew:   24 + 40 Troops + Owner  Accomodations Hi/Mid/Bunk: 9/15/41 Low: 0
Cargo: 55 Std                 Controls: TL12 Low (Bridge)        TL: 12

08 Size                             03 Jump Drive (60 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                    02 Maneuver (T-Plate, 12,000 T/Thr)
01x 251MJ HvyLaserBat(+4) 1/3-2-1-0 1.67 Power Plant (2 x 250 MW)
01x Missile Bay (+4) 5/1            185 Fuel (Scoop 185, Refine 8.3)
                                    00 Meson Screen (0 MW)
02x 10T Minimal Hanger              00 Sandcasters (000 cans)
02x 8T TL9 G-Carrier (unarmed)      00 Nuclear Damper           
01x 112 m^3 Sickbay                 A10 P4 J10 (-3 Masking)
02x 60 Std Dismountable Fuel Tank   00 Meson Screen (0 MW)
                                    30 Armor, 12 Structure
                                                
Crew Detail: 
3 Command, 1 Pilot, 1 Astrogator, 6 Engineer, 3 Maintenance, 4 Sensors, 4
Gunners, 1 Medic, 1 Steward, 40 Troops, plus 1 Owner/Commander
**********

Later, John Lambert

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 22:21:45 +1300
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus

>Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:05:41 -0900
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus

>Has it ever been _established_ that human beings and chimpanzees cannot
>interbreed ?  Just because we have not seen it happen does not mean that
>it _cannot_ happen.  Until the recent development of artificial
>fertilization techniques any such experimentation would have to have
>been done the old fashioned way.  I do not think that sexually molesting
>a chimpanzee would be a very good idea given their strength & I don't
>know enough about chimpanzee behavior to know if they would consent to
>sex.  I think that the results of such an experiment would be
>interesting to know but any such experimentation would be _very_
>controversial and arguably unethical.  I guess this is just more proof
>that those darn Solomani are too hasty & rash :)

Any such research would be a darn sight more than "arguably unethical"

I believe that there have been recorded cases of mating between
humans and orangoutangs (Simia satyrus). I seem to recall that the
resulting offspring are infertile and severely mentally retarded
(in so far as such a term could be applied to such a hybrid), but
given that orangoutangs are further from us than chimps, it does
give one pause to think. I believe there is currently a move on to
reclassify chimps and bonobos <sp> (which are even closer to humans
than chimps) part of genus Homo.

One point which all this has missed, given that the population of
Homo sapien and Homo erectus 300,000 years ago was probably on the
order of one to two million, just what was the impact of the ancients
genetic sampling (assuming at least 2000 individuals for each sample,
some 40+ human races, thats a fairly significant slice of the
population at the time). Or did the ancients just sample once and then
develop all the other human races from that single sample? In which
case the other human races are a lot closer genetically than it would
appear. This of course assumes the ancients actually physically took
individuals for their genetic samples, not something strictly
neccessary; they could hav just taken genetic material.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  Be pure, Be strong, Behave
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:04:07 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Thudd Entries

Andrew scribbled:

>lots of reasons for not using a single dropship...


I agree totally which is why i went for 4 Maverick APC's that could get 2
squads each down to the surface and fight with them, this allows you to hit
4 locations at the same time with (in my design) 20 troops and 2 crew of
the APC's, what i would like to have done was include another 2 Grav
fighters so that each APC has air support. As for the Argument that Cutters
can get from jump point to surface quicker, since my Mavericks were totally
space worthy and 6G capable with Thrusters, they could do exactly the same
job with the Ship turning up at 3G (3J 4M in original spec for the Cobra,
but 4M used a little too much space and power).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:04:10 +0000
From: Colin Hollands <cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com>
Subject: Grenades a slight misconception

I think it was Craig Berry but may have been someone else wrote:

"that the effective range of a grenade is only a few Meters"

this is only partially true, it all depends on the surface of which the
grenade is lying when it explodes, if a grenade is lying on or in a very
soft surface such as a Rice paddy field the effective damage range will
only be a few feet out from ground Zero as most of the blast just goes
upwards, on soft ground such as turf, it would be a few meters with most of
the blast still going upwards, on a hard surface such as concrete it could
be as much as 150 meters because the blast can go in all directions, this
is all due to wierd and wonderfull science that i didn't have explained to
me when i was a squadie, i was just told if a grenade lands next to you in
very soft or soft ground, dive a way from it and hit the deck the likely
hood of you being hit is minimal, if on the other hand you are in an urban
situation and the grenade lands on the road get behind a wall quick or you
could be in deep shit.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 13:39 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)

In-Reply-To: <332323E0.36E0@hotstar.net>

<< You are right and the lifting of the visor that originates the salute 
was to confirm the identity of the person. >>

Ah! Never knew that. I suppose it's obvious when you think about it.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 03:38:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re: The Fifth Horseman...

In mail you write:

> On 03/13/97 at 03:14 AM,  Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> said:
>
>> Really want to bug Billy (Cleon) Gates?  Buy OS/2!
>
> ...and if you want to use a *really* good operating system USE OS/2!

My current hardware won't *run* OS/2. And I'm not *that* fond of IBM anyway.

So I'm happily running OpenDOS, and hope to bring up FreeDOS on another
system one of these days.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 02:50:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

In mail you write:

>         "You pick up both pieces of the very heavy-seeming metal and bounce
> them around together in your hand.  Suddenly, you notice that they're
> rapidly getting hotter.  Make a Wits and Physics roll".

No point. If they are close enough to critical to have a noticeable
temp increase, you are *dead*. You just don't know it yet. And anybody
within a few meters isn't much better off. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 03:34:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Terraforming

In mail you write:

>         When looking at a map of the 1st Imperium, why is it the Vilani 
> got all the way to the Solomani Rim Sector, but only explored half of 
> Corridor, which was RIGHT NEXT DOOR?!?!?

One thing to check is the distribution of stars. For example, while
Alpha Centauri may be the closest star to Sol, the reverse is *not*
true. 

So it's possible that colonization headed off in the direction with
more J-1 routes, and only spread in other directions much later. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 03:06:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Economics...long

In mail you write:

>> Until we get *real* automation (or "faber" type technology) this will
>> be a factor. Then, the prices will hit a minimum.
>
> Enlighten me, what is this "faber" of which you speak?

Short for "fabricator". Basicly a black box into which you feed specs
(say a set of CAD/CAM "drawings") and which outputs the finished item. 

A true "faber" requires molecular level fabrication technology. That
is, the ability to say "I want a molecule of *this*, there, and a
moecule of *that* over *here*..."

We come close with some semiconductor production technology, but we
can't yet combined the "fine control" with the ability to deal with
"large" (inches to feet) items.

Closest we have at the moment are some items that can produce 3-d
models of parts out of plastics.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 02:37:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

In mail you write:

>         The problem is is that my players don't just get homicidal, they
> get *GENOCIDAL*; frying hordes of defenseless TL-0 aliens with a ship's
> laser is just gravy to them.  I shudder what they'd do if someone had
> actually like, say, sold them a defective wristwatch or something...

So? Do like an old Christopher Anvil story. Have the "low tech" natives
have a "religious" caste of "mystics". When the players try to
exterminate them, the "mystics" (actually high powered psis) mop the
place up with them.

In the story I refer to, the Terrans were trying to get a treaty signed
so they can "protect" the planet against some nasty aliens who are
planning to conquer the place. 

When the dust clears, we have aliens cowering in the ruins of ships
that've been hit by tornadoes, tidal waves, earthquakes, etc, etc. And
the "Elders" of the native "mystics" are wandering around making
comments to the younger "mystics"" "So this is the 'self-control'
you've been bragging about. Look at this mess! ...."

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 04:11:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answer] What is Contra-Grav for?

In mail you write:

> Micro evading is another crock of underthough feldercarb. 
>
> If has been stated that ship can microevade and that will render the fire
> control solution less useful, but the sensors can read the hull numbers of
> the same ship(micro evading). It was explained that the sensors software
> could perform this feat of magic, well who says that the fire control
> computer can not use the same stabilization software. 

Because of speed of light lag. Assuming that sensors have the
resolution, you can "stabilize" the image. But that won't tell you a
damn thing about where the target will be several seconds later. And
*that* is what you need to be able to hit it. Because the image you are
viewing is where the ship *was* several seconds ago, and it will be
that many seconds *later* when your laser beam goes thru the point
you've aimed it at. 

The problem is that while you may be able to "exactly" hit the point
you are aiming at, that has nothing to do with aiming at an evading
target at multiple light second ranges. There, the trick is trying to
*guess* where the target will be when your beam arrives. If it is
moving at a steady velo0city, or even a constant acceleration (both
amount *and* direction), the solution is easily calculated. 

But if the velocity/acceleration are varying *unpredictably*, then you
can't determine *where* the target will be when your shot arrives. At
best, you can determine the *likelihood* of it being in various
positions relative to the most recent one you know about.

This is an effect that doesn't occur at ranges encountered on Earth. So
it's not something people are used to. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 03:20:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Terraforming

In mail you write:

>> - -Ice mining ships to transport huge iceburgs from other planets
>> rings and drop them on the planet to be terraformed. These could
>> be fairly small but would need a massive manuver drive. If the
>> iceburg is large enough, it will collapse from its own weight.
>> Smaller ones would need some help from the mirrors.
>     <SIGH> You've got years so all you need to do is identify the appropriate
> bergs and then NUDGE them into Holiman low energy transfer orbits.  I might
> take the berg years to intercept the planet's orbit at the appropriate 
> point...
> but you HAVE decades.  Oh and why wouldn't you break the berg up on approach
> into little fragments so you don't have huge impact, just lots of tiny ones
> that don't seriously effect the planet.  The ones that burn up in the
> atmosphere eventually percipitate out as rain and the ones that don't burn up
> are in managable chunks on the ground.

It's "Hohmann" orbit.

And you have to balance the "breakup" a bit. Make the chunks too small
and you get a bunch of ionized hydrogen and oxygen in the upper
atmosphere. And most of the hydrogen will *leave*.

Make them a bit bigger and you put a lot of heat into the atmosphere,
which could interfere in the terraforming process. And you increase the
amount of water and gasses lost.

The best solution is to crash *big* chunks into the ground. You don't
*want* significant amounts evaporating on the way down.

The tricky part is making the approach path one that minimizes the
impact velocity. For that, you want to have the iceberg approach the
"trailing" side of the planet. And do so in a path that'd "just miss"
if the planet's gravity didn't pull it down. 

One way of getting the "low,thin" atmosphere type is to use controlled
bombardment to create a chain of deep, overlapping craters. This gives
a valley made up of interlocking circular segments. I've seen a
proposal for terraforming a "one-face" world (ie one that has the same
side always towards the star, due to tidal locking) this way. The chain
of craters extends completely around the world at the terminator
(day/night line), and has a river flowing from the poles to the
equator. 

The "valley" is miles wide, and a mile or so deep. That makes it
habitable, even if the rest of the planet isn't.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1082
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 16 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1083



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses) (fwd)
Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
An answer please
e-mail games?
Re: Martial Arts
Re: Martial Arts
Re: An answer please
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Newbie-type questions
Re: Martial Arts
Re: Here's what I want to see.
Re: Here's what I want to see.
Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon
Re: Newbie-type questions
Realistic Gauss gun design...
Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses) (fwd)
Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
Salute!
Re: Sir Jerami Danjo
Another take on Maneuver and "Grav Drives"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:26:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses) (fwd)

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 13:39 GMT0
> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
> Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses)
> 
> In-Reply-To: <332323E0.36E0@hotstar.net>
> 
> << You are right and the lifting of the visor that originates the salute 
> was to confirm the identity of the person. >>
> 
> Ah! Never knew that. I suppose it's obvious when you think about it.

Nice urban legend but it don't wash. Salutes of various forms go back as far
as one wishes to look into history, long before visored helmets were used.
It is also VERY poly-cultural, a good example would be Japan where small
flags were worn by each combatant which identified them and their clans. The
Romans used the raised stiff arm as well as the chest-thump as salutes which
obviously has nothing to do with visors since they didn't use them.

Salutes of various forms are an expression of the 'pack-animal' aspects of
human psychology not an expression of mechanics.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:04:21 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

At 11:29 pm 03/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
 
>This sound like Thruster provide only thrust.  
>So I have a few questions.
>1) Do Thruster produce only thrust or lift and thrust?
>2) Does Contra-Grav provide lift and thrust, or like any other maneuver drive
>only thrust?
>3) Assuming Thruster produce only thrust will it really be so hard in the far
>future to make gimbal mounted Thrusters that instead you install Contra-Grav?

	OK. When we were creating SSDS in one mad sleepless week last year, the
consensus was to ditch the "Spherical 90% Weight Cancellation Field" stuff
from TNE, and go back to the MT conception of CG/AG/whatever you want to
call it: the whozits creates a field which interacts with the local gravity
field, producing a force. There's no difference between "lift" and
"thrust"--thrust is a force in the direction you want to move, lift is a
force opposing the gravity vector.

	Thrusters, instead of interacting with the "local gravity field"
interacted with the "gravitational substructure of the universe," or some
such malarkey. It was just handwaving to allow CG/AG/Whatever to drop off
sharply with distance from a planet, and hence make it unuseable for
spacecraft. Thrusters function into the outer reaches of a solar system,
while CG/AG/WE only works near planets.

	The reason many ships carry both CG and thrusters is cost/power/idunno.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:19:32 -0600
From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: An answer please

What ever happened to Dave Golden's site, and or the work that was being
done on the upcoming Naval Architects Handbook???

I think that QSDS & SSDS are ok but I cant bring myself to putting much
effort into designing ships when there is so much limitation in both
systems.  The design sequence in MegaTraveller was even better!  

I have read that you 'can' use FFS to some degree but there is no
definitive answer.

Of all the material that has been produced for T4, ship generation has been
on the back burner as far as I can see.  

If I am way off base here Please let me know.  I'm not trying to rain on
anyone's parade, I just would like to see something worthwhile done.

The rest of T4, so far, I can live with basically.  As soon as something
other than Mileu 0 is promoted.  Ive played for over 10 years at TL14-15
and it is hard to limit yourself to TL12.

Soapbox mode off.

Comments? Questions? I will be looking forward to reading them, both
positive and negative.

______________________________
Dave Murray
DRM13@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:57:55 -0500
From: Chatham Ewing <cbe2866@is4.nyu.edu>
Subject: e-mail games?

Greetings all, 

Are there any T4 play by e-mail games that have a referee subscribed to
this list? Anyone starting up a game soon?

Thanks,

C. Ewing
cbe2866@is4.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:03:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

Oooh I feel a classification coming on....

REAL MEN: Believe in the art of 'ching-chunk' (sound of SMG being cocked)

ROLE PLAYERS: Believe in the art of 'Shumasshi-Voorshin' (the ancient
Vilani 'Left Little Finger of Death') 

LOONIES: Believe in the art of 'Chigga Chigga BRRaaaap braap braap' (sound
of a 38" bar 125 CC two stroke chainsaw starting..."Shop Smart...Shop
S-Mart!")

MUNCHKINS: Believe in the art of 'click' (Power switch on their
FGMP-15..the Munchkin's universal answer to life, the universe and
everything)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:48:54 +0000
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

At 23:33 14/03/97 -0500, Mused wrote:

>Regarding my total skepticism of all oriental martial arts:
>I have yet to see a training studio that does not have at least twenty 
>trophies in its front window (and it has usually been open for 2 months.
>This indicates to me that it is largely malarkey.

Well, there aren't competitions in aikido (not strictly true - one school
has competitions).  Our club has been going for 15 years without tropies).
I can see why some MAs have sparring and competitions (it helps hone your
reflexes, and probably control your adrenaline, if someone else is *really*
trying to hurt you), but it can also lead to a MA being turned into a
sport, rather than a practical defense.

>
>Regarding effectiveness of martial artists:
>the actual fighting skill is secondary to the discipline.

I disagree with this.  Whilst fitness and body condition can help you, the
most important things are spirit (I don't mean mystic mumbo-jumbo here),
balance, basic technique (fancy moves don't tend to work in real situations
- - simple ones do) and perception.  "Well, you could say the same thing
about a boxer." I hear you cry.  That's exactly right.  They are both
martial arts.  Just because oriental MAs have a sprinkling of
religion/philosophy, and have cool films made about them doesn't make them
unbeatable,... or worthless.

>Regarding the effectiveness of real martial arts:
>I believe you have forgotten several of the basic rules
>1) bigger IS stronger

Yep.  I found it much more difficult to put wrist-locks on a rower, or to
move someone *big*, but as my technique improved I found it easier, and I
wasn't getting much stronger.

>2) do not fight unarmed against armed and
>3) ninja-schminja, ya can't karate chop a bullet
>
>I believe in the art of ching-chunk (sound of SMG being cocked)
>

Absolutely.  Don't bring a cutlass to a plasma-fight, or something like that.

When questioned by a class as to what was the best technique, a high grade
aikidoka turned and ran to the other side of the room.  If you don't need
to fight (as in defending someone else), then the best defense is to not be
there.

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:52:59 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: An answer please

At 10:19 am 01/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>What ever happened to Dave Golden's site, and or the work that was being
>done on the upcoming Naval Architects Handbook???

	1. My site has moved to www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller. Much of it
hasn't been edited and uploaded yet, but I'm working on it.

	2. The NAH stuff hasn't been moved, and I don't know what the status of
NAH/FF&S2 is. I'm still trying to find out from IG what involvement I'm
going to have. While I'm still interested, I'm getting more and more down
on T4/IG. I may wind up just starting a project to fix FF&S for TNE, and
stick with that.

>I have read that you 'can' use FFS to some degree but there is no
>definitive answer.

	Both QSDS and SSDS are based on FF&S, that it, all the parts were designed
with FF&S. The only differences are:

		1. Fusion plants below TL12 have their minimum size multiplied by 12
		2. Thruster plates cost 25% of what they did in FF&S.
		3. Jump fuel is now 10%xJn
		4. CG provides lift and thrust instead of just "cancelling" part of the
weight of the ship. Divide the numbers in FF&S for CG for one ton
displacement by 15, and that's how much is needed to provide 1 tonne thrust.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:43:31 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>>         The problem is is that my players don't just get homicidal, they
>> get *GENOCIDAL*; frying hordes of defenseless TL-0 aliens with a ship's
>> laser is just gravy to them.  I shudder what they'd do if someone had
>> actually like, say, sold them a defective wristwatch or something...
>
>So? Do like an old Christopher Anvil story. Have the "low tech" natives
>have a "religious" caste of "mystics". When the players try to
>exterminate them, the "mystics" (actually high powered psis) mop the
>place up with them.
>
>In the story I refer to, the Terrans were trying to get a treaty signed
>so they can "protect" the planet against some nasty aliens who are
>planning to conquer the place.
>
>When the dust clears, we have aliens cowering in the ruins of ships
>that've been hit by tornadoes, tidal waves, earthquakes, etc, etc. And
>the "Elders" of the native "mystics" are wandering around making
>comments to the younger "mystics"" "So this is the 'self-control'
>you've been bragging about. Look at this mess! ...."


	The thing is is that I just don't like psionics.  I think that
basically, I broke the old GMing rule that says "Never let the players play
anything wierder than the monsters".

	In this case 6" tall geneered mutant killer lab rats were nowhere
near wierd enough..:).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:18:24 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Newbie-type questions

At 10:58 PM 3/14/97 -0800, Richard Hough wrote:

>One of my players watched Hard-Boiled and now insists on using 2 pistols in
>combat, one in each hand. So far I have just been using the normal ranged
>combat rules and letting him waste twice the ammunition, but he is getting
>ticked that he never gets 2 hits. Does anyone have a suggestion for how to
>run this? The effect I would like is that extremely skilled shooters will
>do, on average, more damage firing with 2 weapons while lesser-skilled ones
>will do worse.

Well, he's using his off hand to fire one, dealing with recoil from two
different sources, and firing pistols one-handed.  I'd add one level of
difficulty to his good hand pistol, and two to his off-hand pistol.. first
Spectacular Failure he gets, give him a jammed gun, he'll have to
drop/holster his other gun to clear it.  Did he remember to safe the other
weapon first?  :)

>I have another newbie-type question that came up in the last session: how
>do you prononunce the "hault" that shows up in nobles' names?

"Ho", like the French "haut cuisine" (translation: expensive food that I
don't like.)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:18:21 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

At 09:58 PM 3/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
>s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:
>>     Just out of curiousity, have you ever sparred with a Senior Black Belt?
>> Third Dan or above?
>
>Regarding my total skepticism of all oriental martial arts:
>I have yet to see a training studio that does not have at least twenty
trophies in its front 
>window (and it has usually been open for 2 months. This indicates to me
that it is largely 
>malarkey.

Take a close look.. usually those trophies belong to the sensei.. who's been
at this for twenty-five years.

I should introduce you to Johannes, the Swedish Ninja from Hell.  He is a
nice guy, who regularly throws people over walls for fun.

>Regarding the effectiveness of real martial arts:
>I believe you have forgotten several of the basic rules
>1) bigger IS stronger

The aforementioned Swede stands about 5'4".  I am 6', and a former soldier.
He could drop me in a heartbeat.  He has.

>2) do not fight unarmed against armed and

Well, DUH.  The trick is to catch your opponent unarmed.  Or do you alwayas
carry a firearm?  Every minute of the day?  Remember, most forms of martial
arts were developed by societies that were forbidden the use of weapons.
Many forms include very useful disarm moves.

>3) ninja-schminja, ya can't karate chop a bullet

Why would a ninja use karate?  Taijutsu is their preferred art.. anyway, try
shooting someone who doesn't attack until they are within two feet of you,
with your weapon slung or holstered.  That's how you win against an armed
man.. surprise.

>I believe in the art of ching-chunk (sound of SMG being cocked)

You have 30 rounds.  I can wait and hide.  

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:28:25 +0000
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

> 	Huh? Who wrote you can't play in the service? I've always interpreted
> "mustering out" or "failing" survival roll as the end of character
> generation. Doesn't mean the character actually left, that's just where the
> game starts. When I needed a navy crew, I generated them until they were at
> the appropriate rank and experience for their position, and then started
> playing. So if you want to play a Naval Commander, generate the character,
> and go for it!

Ok, but are there rules for assigning ships? It seems one of my 
complaints has been dealt with in T4.

Vance Scott

Vanquisher of all foes.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:28:25 +0000
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

 Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca> says,
> 
> >> Where does it say you can't play active duty military? 
> >
> >It doesn't say you can't, but it doesn't specifically say you can 
> >either.
> 
> Actually it does. T4, pg 22, "Mustering Out":
> 
> "If the player chose a target age at the beginning of the process, the
> character may end the process at exactly this age. If this falls in the
> middle of an educational or career term, he begins the adventure portion of
> the game still attending that school or involved in that occupation."
> 
> But it's true, the focus of the rules is on characters who have left active
> service. I think this is appropriate for the basic rules. Books that focus
> in great detail on the military services are likely to follow at some
> point.

Thanks Glenn I believe I was mislead. A friend of mine said that T4 
didn't have any rules for in service play. I don't own a copy of T4 but 
i'm thinking of buying one. I have owned CT, and do own T2300. I'm 
trying to check T4 out before investing cash into a system I'm not 
happy with. 

Vance Scott

Vanquisher of all foes.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:08:54 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: FSA DH-1 15mm Gauss Hand Cannon

Richard Hough wrote:

>
>>this is an absurd gun by ANY stretch of the imagination, and a worthy (?)
>>addition to the FSH catalog.
>
>Roderick, have you ever considered that the violent tendencies of your
>players may be encouraged by the kind of toys you give them? Just asking...


	Well, although this may seem surprising, no.  It might help channel
things a little, but that's it.  If I'd given them nothing but a cargo of
refrigerators, pianos, safes, and anvils they probably would have just
flown around dropping them on the natives from a great height or
something...

	In fact, they probably would have enjoyed that even more (although
in all fairness to Glenn I've got to say that he was the only one who
didn't show any genocidal tendencies).  I can just see them doing this in
fact; they'd have turned it into a competition, and anyone who developed a
lead would have been slung out the cargo bay doors by the rest of the crew,
and so forth...

	Actually,

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:32:12 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie-type questions

rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough) wrote:

>One of my players watched Hard-Boiled and now insists on using 2 pistols in
>combat, one in each hand. So far I have just been using the normal ranged
>combat rules and letting him waste twice the ammunition, but he is getting
>ticked that he never gets 2 hits. Does anyone have a suggestion for how to
>run this? The effect I would like is that extremely skilled shooters will
>do, on average, more damage firing with 2 weapons while lesser-skilled ones
>will do worse.

How about the players gets to roll two shots, but each shot is made at one
task difficulty higher (average to difficult...) I imagine you could do
the same thing by firing one gun more often, but this way looks cooler. 

Also, I'd only let the PC fire twice at the same target.  If the player
wants to shot at two targets at once (one gun at each) I'd have each shot
at *two* task levels higher (average to formidable).  I'd only let this
trick be performed by a PC using two guns at once. 

Other ideas?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:34:46 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Realistic Gauss gun design...

	The multiple inadequacies of FF&S's gauss weapon design sequence
that were revealed when I posted my 15mm pistol design started me thinking
about ways to fix it ... and one solution that occurred to me is as
follows:

1) figure out a formula for the structural integrity of gauss projectiles
as presented in FF&S: i.e. a round of x dimensions can be accellerated at y
G's before it deforms.

2) then, figure out the muzzle velocity based on the max G's that the round
can sustain, based on the length of the barrel as designed.

3) finally, base muzzle energy and required energy based on that figure.

	This should produce numbers that can be used to put an upper limit
on the results produced by the FF&S formula.

	Can any of you engineering and physics wonks out there come up with
some formulae for this?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 19:11:50 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses) (fwd)

In a message dated 3/15/97 9:26 AM, Jim Choate wrote:

>> << You are right and the lifting of the visor that originates the salute 
>> was to confirm the identity of the person. >>
>> 
>> Ah! Never knew that. I suppose it's obvious when you think about it.
>
>Nice urban legend but it don't wash. Salutes of various forms go back as far
>as one wishes to look into history, long before visored helmets were used.
>It is also VERY poly-cultural, a good example would be Japan where small
>flags were worn by each combatant which identified them and their clans. The
>Romans used the raised stiff arm as well as the chest-thump as salutes which
>obviously has nothing to do with visors since they didn't use them.

I think the original poster was referring to the *specific* type of 
salute done by the American, British and other military. (ie. fingers to 
eyebrow)

Obviously, salutes of different types are used the world over. The roman 
salute (palm outward) I'm sure began as a way of showing one's hands 
don't conceal a dagger...

It is best of course, to face the person doing the saluting...

"Et tu, Brute?"

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 18:03:43 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

David J. Golden wrote:


> 	Thrusters, instead of interacting with the "local gravity field"
> interacted with the "gravitational substructure of the universe," or some
> such malarkey. It was just handwaving to allow CG/AG/Whatever to drop off
> sharply with distance from a planet, and hence make it unuseable for
> spacecraft. Thrusters function into the outer reaches of a solar system,
> while CG/AG/WE only works near planets.

So Basically your saying a Thruster is like CG it just interacts with the
"gravitational substructure of the universe" instead of the "local gravity
field".  This is pretty much what I had thought, however what is confusing me
is why is that a Thruster only produces thrust in one direction while CG can
produce thrust in many directions?  I mean If they are pretty much the same
thing with the exception of what they interact with shouldn't they act the
same?  I realize this is all based on a bunch of handwaving but I would like
the handwaving to be consistent.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
the Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 21:35:09 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Salute!

On 03/15/97 at 07:11 PM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca> said:

> I think the original poster was referring to the *specific* type of 
> salute done by the American, British and other military. (ie. fingers to 
> eyebrow)

You know, the visor origin is *probably* more right than wrong. OTOH, some
of it might go back to tipping/removing your hat/helment. The salute isn't
exactly to the eyebrow after all, it's above it..up toward the hairline
where a cap bill would be located.  Then again, how about the old practice
of peasents showing their respect by tugging their forelock.  Now explain
the logic of *that* one!  ;->

> Obviously, salutes of different types are used the world over. The roman 
> salute (palm outward) I'm sure began as a way of showing one's hands 
> don't conceal a dagger...

Yeah, and then they bring the arm back to their chest symbolicly stabbing
themselves, huh?  ;->

On a Traveller note, would the salute survive into the 43rd century? I'd
bet yes, Militaries being what they are.  It might not be the hand to the
forehead we're use to.  With visored Battlesuits and Vacsuits being so
common, maybe it's back to an open palm or something.  

OTOH, I wouldn't expect Scouts to salute much of anything! ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 20:12:14 -0800 (PST)
From: " Paul  Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sir Jerami Danjo

This type of stuff is what I subscribe to this list for.  We need more role
playing stuff like this on the TML.

PZ

- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 22:30:18 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Another take on Maneuver and "Grav Drives"

On 03/15/97 at 06:03 PM,  "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com> said:

> So Basically your saying a Thruster is like CG it just interacts with the
> "gravitational substructure of the universe" instead of the "local
> gravity field".  This is pretty much what I had thought, however what is
> confusing me is why is that a Thruster only produces thrust in one
> direction while CG can produce thrust in many directions?  I mean If they
> are pretty much the same thing with the exception of what they interact
> with shouldn't they act the same?  I realize this is all based on a bunch
> of handwaving but I would like the handwaving to be consistent

Chris, this is why I ran screaming away from Gravitic Thrusters.  My hands
just wouldn't wave that fast.  ;->

I changed the fundamental physics behind Thrusters from gravity to jump.  I
use stutterjump for in-system travel.  Ok, my hands have to wave just as
fast, but in a different direction. ;-p

My stutterjump is limited to a pseudo-velocity that is a small fraction of
c.  The stutterjump works by instantaneously jumping you a few centimeters
forward several hundred thousands of times a second.  Because you aren't
injecting "jump fuel" with each stutterjump a jump bubble isn't created and
you aren't isolated for a week.  OTOH, without the jump bubble you can't
jump further than a few centimeters per jump.  There is no actual
acceleration or velocity change, just positional change, so you don't have
to worry about turning into jelly from the several thousand g pseudo
accelerations either.

Movement is along the axis of the ship's backbone from the forward coils
that generates the jump to aft ring that completes the circuit. In order to
change direction of movement you have to slew the entire ship.  Spheres
allow the fastest slew rate, but because of the geometry of the jump (the
curve coming off the coil is too wide for the aft ring to grab) are *very*
inefficient.  Potential ship pseudo-speed increases with the length to
width ratio up to about 10 to 1, and then rapidly falls off because the
field induced by the coil is too far forward of the ring, and begins to
break down. Tradeoffs between agility (slew rate) and pseudo-speed keep
length to width ratios in the 3 - 6 to 1 range.  

Then when you want to go interstellar, you inject your jump fuel into
hyperspace though your forward jump coils, a jump bubble surrounds your
ship closing behind the aft ring, you lock your sensors onto a gravity
source several light years away, you fire a grav pulse to reel in your
ship, and you jump several parsecs instantaneously. The jump bubble keeps
you isolated from the rest of the universe for the time it takes to
dissipate..approximately one week.  So, even though the jump was
instantaneous you can't get out of the bubble and back into normal space
for the week.

Gravitic drives are used to land, lift and match orbits.  Your stutterjump
maneuver drives can't do that.  They *are*
omni-directional, but only work by pushing or pulling on a nearby gravity
source.  This is why ships have both..in my game.  ;-> Oh, tractor and
repulsor beams fall into this category somehow too, but I'm still
cognitating on that one.

Inertial compensators and internal gravity control are a third technology. 
They *should* be related to the physics behind Grav drives somehow, but I
don't have them rationalized too well yet. Any ideas you want to
contribute?


Eris,
    the Heretic

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1083
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 16 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1084



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

none
Re: Newbie-type questions
Re: Terraforming
Re: Prizes in the Navy
Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts
Misjumps
Re: Homo antiquitus
Re: Thudd Entries
Re: Martial Arts
Re: Grenades a slight misconception
Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses) (fwd)
Re: Martial Arts
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: Homo antiquitus
Vilani settlement patterns
System Defense Boat Design
Re: Misjumps
Re: Here's what I want to see.
Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...
Re: Salute!
Re: Aircars
Re: Terran logo
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Starports
Re: Terraforming

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:35:05 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: none

Liam said:

>If you don't need to fight (as in defending someone else), then the best
defense
> is to not be there.

Yep. Best Armor is a couple of light years...


Loren Wiseman

    GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:40:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Newbie-type questions

In a message dated 97-03-15 02:48:05 EST, Richard Hough writes;

> have another newbie-type question that came up in the last session: how
>do you prononunce the "hault" that shows up in nobles' names?
In front of their faces; "Haut", behind their backs; "U air-o-gint
snaht-ball"
The second pronunciation varies a great deal with region.]
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:40:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terraforming

>In mail I write:
>
>>> - -Ice mining ships to transport huge iceburgs from other planets
>>> rings and drop them on the planet to be terraformed. 
I have never been able to spell iceberg correctly on the first try.
Btw - Has anyone detemined if the Oort cloud is near enough to mine in this
manner? Or am I opening up a dead thread?
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:40:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Prizes in the Navy

In a message dated 97-03-14 22:15:41 EST, Mike Sellers writes:

>I've been flipping through Patrick O'Brian's "Aubrey" books -- Royal Navy
>in the early 19th century -- and have been impressed by how much time and
>energy was expended by the naval captains on the capturing of *prizes*.
Also check out 'prizes' in the "Honor Harrington" stories esp. "Baslisk
Station". In brief, the crew of a starship was awarded a percentage of the
vaule of confinscated contraband, the captain getting the largest share, and
the crew dividing the rest. Well Pete? Can we?
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 08:19:49 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts

Mike Sellers responded:

> >I've played several campaigns where we decided that the players would be
> >active-duty military.  The character generation system was then used to
> >create the character's prior history.  
> 
> I think your reply illustrates the original point: what about
> *non*-military characters?  These have typically been given the short end
> of the stick.  Traders and Scouts are very cool (Scouts still my favorite),
> but there should be more: scientist, spy, maybe priest or even dilettante.
> And as much as possible, these should be able to create varied characters
> that are just as playable as the military ones.  As it is now, sometimes it
> feels like we have an old D&D game filled with fighters.  Where are our mages?
> 

Um, I have to take exception to this.  Anyone playing with any of my 
characters on IRC or PBeM can vouch that I do not play military 
characters.  My characters are fully developed and playable.  One is 
an entertainer/agent, she is mustered out and has joined a diplomatic 
team. One is a scholar specializing in xenobiology, she booked 
passage on a ship and is now lost and making The Long Way Home. One   
is a diplomat (MT), she is *not mustered out* and is investigating an 
assassination, having been present when it happened. One is a Noble 
*and is still active* as mustering out of the Nobles made no sense to 
me, especially since she has been assigned to her current duty 
(Imperial Liaison to the ISBA) by dear old Uncle Cleon (see the ISBA 
mailing list for the further adventures of the Duchess Rose).

There is no reason any of these careers have to be "mustered out".  
An entertainer could be on tour and using whatever ship is in use 
during the game to tour.  Depending on the level of achievement of 
the entertainer, that tour could be pre-arranged, or take the 
entertainer wherever the ship is headed. What happens after the 
entertainer joins the ship, well, thats another story entirely.

The same method can be set to other character types:  An agent on 
route to an assignment; a scholar booking passage (on a non-military 
ship) or brought in as a civilian expert ( on a military ship with 
proper security clearance, of course); a Noble dealing with family 
business matters of whatever form, etc.

There are no limits to the game, beyond those that we impose.  

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:34:42 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Misjumps

I recall someone complaining a while ago about rolling 2- for misjump given
in the T4 rules. I never paid much attention to any discussion about this
since I assumed the rule was a misprint; all existing rules made a misjump
possible only with negative DMs and the rules in T4 are phrased confusingly
since positive DMs are bad and it doesn't explain what "using unrefined
fuel when not equipped to do so" means. However, someone from IG recently
told me that, yes, this is correct and it does mean that even a perfectly
maintained and operated ship has a 1/36 chance of misjumping. Unless I
misunderstand something, this is bad.

Since practically no ships carry enough fuel for a second jump, since the
probability of misjumping to within maneuver drive range of a fuel source
is nil, and since most ships don't have the power or supplies for
interstellar travel with maneuver drives, ships that misjump are
effectively lost. As a player, rules which kill an entire party with one
dice roll with no possibility of influencing or recovering from the roll
are unacceptable. From TML postings, it seems most referees creatively
interpret the roll to spare the players. As a referee, rules which demand
that the laws of physics work differently for players than for NPCs are
unacceptable. Even if we do assume the players are somehow immune, the
stated misjump rules make the Imperium, or any multi-sector-spanning
interstellar government, impossible. Not 7-dice-impossible; really
impossible.

From the rules, a starship has a 35/36 probability of surviving each jump,
and commercial ships make two jumps per month. This means a commercial ship
has a (35/36)^2, or about 95% probability of surviving each month. This
works out to about 50% per year, or less than 7% for a four-year term. This
applies to both starships and crew; almost nothing that uses jump drive
will last a single term.

It gets worse. If we assume each jump averages 2 parsecs, a ship can go
about 25 jumps, or 50 parsecs, before its chance of survival is less than
50%. The same applies if it ever wants to go back. If you launch a fleet of
1000 ships to the spinward marches (around 200 parsecs, as I recall),
assuming no mishaps, perfect maintenance, straight-line travel with no
short jumps or zig-zags, only about 50 would make it there. Maybe 2 would
make it back. This is assuming absolutely perfect conditions; with
realistic conditions likely no ships would make it.

The consequences are pretty staggering: No interstellar commerce; any cargo
that would make enough profit to pay for the constant loss in ships would
bankrupt the shipping firm the first time the cargo itself is lost. No
interstellar tourists, except for suicidal multi-millionaires and I don't
think you could build an entire industry on them. No Zhodani core
expedition. No scout service; the ships would never come back. No
megacorporations or Imperial navy for the same reason. No retired starships
or crews, unless they retire after a few months in service. No ships more
than a few years old. No vast fleets roaming space, no battles over
sector-wide borders. No Xboats. No Imperium.

Obviously this will not do. My ruling is to add one more DM for misjump: -1
if the ship has the required number of engineers (remember negative misjump
DMs are good). This makes jump drives merely dangerous instead of suicidal,
and gives the crew something to do while the ship is in jump. Any comments
are welcome, especially if I am missing something in the misjump rules. I
can hardly believe this has gone unnoticed.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:53:00 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus

Andrew Vallance wrote:
> 
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
> >Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus
> 
> >Has it ever been _established_ that human beings and chimpanzees cannot
> >interbreed ?  
> I believe that there have been recorded cases of mating between
> humans and orangoutangs (Simia satyrus). I seem to recall that the
> resulting offspring are infertile and severely mentally retarded
> (in so far as such a term could be applied to such a hybrid), but
> given that orangoutangs are further from us than chimps, it does
> give one pause to think. I believe there is currently a move on to
> reclassify chimps and bonobos <sp> (which are even closer to humans
> than chimps) part of genus Homo.

I believe it has been established that it is impossible. And any stories to the contrary can be 
safely disregarded as legends and fodder for the Midnight Sun

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:54:45 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Thudd Entries

Colin Hollands wrote:
> 
> Andrew scribbled:
> 
> >lots of reasons for not using a single dropship...
> 
> I agree totally which is why i went for 4 Maverick APC's that could get 2
> squads each down to the surface and fight with them, this allows you to hit
> 4 locations at the same time with (in my design) 20 troops and 2 crew of
> the APC's, what i would like to have done was include another 2 Grav
> fighters so that each APC has air support. As for the Argument that Cutters
> can get from jump point to surface quicker, since my Mavericks were totally
> space worthy and 6G capable with Thrusters, they could do exactly the same
> job with the Ship turning up at 3G (3J 4M in original spec for the Cobra,
> but 4M used a little too much space and power).

And if you had each man go to the surface with a grav belt it would be safer still.
I think the case could be argued for cutters based on military necessity. It is cheaper to 
maintain two cutters than 60+ grav belts

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:05:59 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> MUNCHKINS: Believe in the art of 'click' (Power switch on their
> FGMP-15..the Munchkin's universal answer to life, the universe and
> everything)

Should be "click....vuuuuUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHMMMMMMmmmmm" 
(everyone begins carefully backing away)
(a la Ghostbusters Proton Pack)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:57:04 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Grenades a slight misconception

Colin Hollands wrote:
> 
> I think it was Craig Berry but may have been someone else wrote:
> "that the effective range of a grenade is only a few Meters"
> 
> if on the other hand you are in an urban
> situation and the grenade lands on the road get behind a wall quick or you
> could be in deep shit.

Very true. the idea of diving to "mother earth" for protection is good because the elastic 
nature of soil absorbs shock and fragments well. However, hard surfaces (infantry in WW2 
dreaded airstrips because of this) bounce the shockwave back and fragments ricochet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:04:12 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Marines and Long Blades (Cutlasses) (fwd)

Jim Choate wrote:
> > Ah! Never knew that. I suppose it's obvious when you think about it.
> 
> Nice urban legend but it don't wash. Salutes of various forms go back as far
> as one wishes to look into history, long before visored helmets were used.
> It is also VERY poly-cultural, a good example would be Japan where small
> flags were worn by each combatant which identified them and their clans. The
> Romans used the raised stiff arm as well as the chest-thump as salutes which
> obviously has nothing to do with visors since they didn't use them.
> 
> Salutes of various forms are an expression of the 'pack-animal' aspects of
> human psychology not an expression of mechanics.

Very well then. I will rephrase it. The MODERN version of the salute come from the raising 
of the visor.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:09:03 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >I believe in the art of ching-chunk (sound of SMG being cocked)
> 
> You have 30 rounds.  I can wait and hide.

Two Words: Boxer Rebellion

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 17:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.94.970308204653.10381A-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>

<< If the data gathered by all of the sensors in, say, a squad, were combined
and checked against one another by a "tactical computer," interesting
things would become possible. Suppose, for example, that soldier "A" can't
see a potential target, because there's a wall in his way.  Soldiers "B" 
and "C", however, can see this target. The tactical computer "paints" a
translucent, "greyed-out" picture of this hidden target for soldier "C,"
using data from "A" and "B" (corrected for distance, and the angle from
which it is being "viewed"). This image would be "painted" right onto the
inner surface of the suit's visor.  Soldier "C" could then blast through
that wall with his FGMP-14, without waiting to be consciously informed of
the target's presence by "A" or "B".  Likewise, the tactical computer
could "tint" the images of potential targets, to indicate whether they're
in range or not...the possibilites are endless. >>

The military are currently developing something very similar, for fitting in 
AFVs. When you include electronic maps, data from RPV drones/spysats, the 
ability to see from any viewpoint (including computer-generated), real-time 
updates, etc, it gets really mind-boggling.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 18:32:34 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Homo antiquitus

Merrick Burkhardt writes:
>The definition of species _is_not_ that they can breed and produce
>fertile offspring, that is my point.  It's goofy, I know, but it's true.

Well, in that case I'm not even going to bother arguing about it. I've
always thought that that was the definition. What is the proper word then?
In any case, my argument still stands, even if the terms I used are
technically incorrect: If Solomani can interbreed with Darrinas, Vilani, 
etc. then they would be able to breed with Homo antiquitus, should any of
them turn up.
 
>The real point of my post was that _Homo_erectus_ was named under these 
>naming conventions, so the fact that it has a different species designation 
>doesn't tell us a damn thing about how well we could breed with it.  That 
>make more sense?

Well, it makes me wonder what term that apply to groups that are distinguished
by failing that test. And what the definition of species is. The other
definition always made a lot of sense to me. Ah well... scientists... ;-(

>No, due to the way species are named, it isn't.  You could have a
>different species with two sufficiently different sub-populations if
>they never bred simply because they never had the chance.  Odd, huh?

But in that case isn't my great-grandmother of a different species than me?
In fact, aren't most people in the world of different species (And, yes, I'm
being facecious, but I really don't see the sense in that distinction).
 
>That's the trick, that isn't really the definition.  If we applied
>that test, there would be many fewer species than we list now.
>Also, you'd have to use some kind of sub-species designation to
>describe what critter you're talking about.

Whereas now it seems to me that we need some sort of super-species 
designation. What's the difference? (Waitaminute, is that the "Homo"
part of the species name? (What is it it is called? Genus?)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 19:06:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Vilani settlement patterns

K.C. Komosky writes:
> 	The statement that most interstellar governments are going to 
> want to colonize the worlds closest to their homeworld first is very 
> true. That leads me to oneof my very small personal beefs with Traveller 
> background:
> 
> 	When looking at a map of the 1st Imperium, why is it the Vilani 
> got all the way to the Solomani Rim Sector, but only explored half of 
> Corridor, which was RIGHT NEXT DOOR?!?!?
> 
> 	Well, has anyone ever though of any logical explanation for this 
> very bizarre pattern of Vilani settlement?

Careful with your terms; the Vilani _explored_ as far out as the Spinward 
Marches (as evidenced by the First Empire colony on Banegen (Vanejen to
non-Vilani ;-) and possibly much further. They just didn't _settle_ more
than halfway into Corridor. And you're right, that is very strange (Almost
as strange as getting to within a few parsecs of Terra around 1000 AD and
then not finding it despite settling most of the neighboring Dingir subsector 
_after_ that.)

Anyway, it certainly wasn't because the Vargr stopped them. In Year Zero
the Vargr of Corridor are unable to prevent an extremely rapid expansion
into Deneb, indicating (at least to me) that any Vargr worlds in Corridor
at the time are weak and propably low-tech.

One possible solution is that the Vilani used native human races for labor
a lot more than their history mentions and that there were an abundance of 
those to rimward and trailing but very few to Spinward (If that is the case 
then Deneb is propably a First Empire outpost and not a native human race).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:51:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: System Defense Boat Design

  To provide context for the Mercenary Cruiser THUDD competition, I'm
fooling around with some System Defense Boat designs.  I took as a
starting point the Classic Traveller SDB from Supplement 7 - Traders and
Gunboats.  Based on a 400T hull, the CT SDB has 6G performance, mounts two
triple laser turrets and two triple missile turrets, and carries a crew of
10.  There is extra cargo space for missiles.  The ship uses TL12
technology.  Cost is about 775MCr.

  I fooled around with some lower tech designs using QSDS 1.5 and
Wildstars Big List of Hulls.  At TL9 it looks like a 400T SDB designed
with this system would carry only missiles, since no lasers are available,
and the smallest QSDS PA-Gun (CT N-PAWS) weighs in at 200T.  SSDS would
probably do a better job.  I'd probably go with a mix of two types of
ships.  One type would have a larger hull, maybe 600T, with a PA-Gun,
a couple of missile batterys, and some sandcasters.  The second type would
be smaller, 200 or 300T, with missiles and sandcasters only.

  At TL10 QSDS gives you a laser bay weapon, though aside from power
consumption it's pretty much inferior to the TL-9 PA-Gun, especially in
terms of range. Again, missiles are still the best bet.  I put together a
nice 400T 6G SDB at TL10 with 2 laser bays, two missile turrets, two
sandcasters, and small military sensors, plus a big cargo bay for extra
missiles, all for about 610MCr.  Adding the medium military sensors would
run about 200MCr more.

  At TL11, the QSDS system gives you a nicer PA-Gun - half the tonnage
(100T), cheaper, and slightly less crew.  Looks good, so a SDB would
likely mount one of these, plus some laser turrets (finally available at
TL-11) and missile turrets.

  So that's the threat - consider it!

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 14:00:30 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: Re: Misjumps

> Even if we do assume the players are somehow immune, the stated misjump
> rules make the Imperium, or any multi-sector-spanning interstellar
> government, impossible. Not 7-dice-impossible; really impossible.
> 
<Snip>

The misjump rules are an example of a dumb rule.  I ignore it in my 
campaigns, unless there are negative modifiers.  There are several 
rules like this in T4, that make the game as written illogically and 
unplayable.  I ignore or modify for playability sake.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:05:56 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

At 03:28 PM 3/15/97 +0000, you wrote:

>Ok, but are there rules for assigning ships? It seems one of my 
>complaints has been dealt with in T4.

Well, what do you want for the campaign?  I'm using a battleship, since I
want to experiment with troupe play.  I played an MT game where we were the
entire crew of a 400-ton Missle Boat.  This is one of those things where the
Referee simply has to make a decision!  If the T4 rules included rules for
every possible situation and campaign style, they'd be the size of the
Oxford dictionary.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:06:02 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...

At 03:34 PM 3/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>	The multiple inadequacies of FF&S's gauss weapon design sequence
>that were revealed when I posted my 15mm pistol design started me thinking
>about ways to fix it ... and one solution that occurred to me is as
>follows:

<snip>

Greg Porter has already done this work in the latest edition of Guns! Guns!
Guns!  (BTRC).  The designs produced with 3G3 are a lot closer to real world
numbers, and are generally more useful.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:06:00 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Salute!

At 09:35 PM 3/15/97 -0600, Eris wrote:

>On a Traveller note, would the salute survive into the 43rd century? I'd
>bet yes, Militaries being what they are.  It might not be the hand to the
>forehead we're use to.  With visored Battlesuits and Vacsuits being so
>common, maybe it's back to an open palm or something. 

At the risk of being soundly hissed, I'm picturing the parade Imperial
military salute as something akin to the facist salute.  Right arm held
straight, raised slightly, about 45 degrees to the right.  For more
"informal" occasions (passing a lieutenant on the street, for example) a
Roman-like hand to the chest.

>OTOH, I wouldn't expect Scouts to salute much of anything! ;->

Raised fist, palm facing the scout, middle finger extended.  ;)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:18:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Aircars

>Subject: Where are the Aircars?

  As already pointed out, useful grav vehicles start at
rather high prices.  Sadly, I can only answer for CT /
Striker / Book 8, but try building an aircraft with a
simple jet or rotor set-up powered by a fuel-cell.
You'll have civilian aviation that's relatively
affordable and has still useful performance (i.e., it
flies).
  
  Next, of course, you install slave autopilots hooked
to traffic control and make disconnecting them an offence :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:18:54 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Terran logo

Hello,
>From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
>Subject: Terran Confederation Logo?
>
>Im looking for any rendition of the Terran Federation logo (the one during
>the Intersteller wars) or was this just the UN symbol?

  From the game Imperium;  remove the fourth ring (N.Z., and the
tips of Africa and S.A.), remove the laurels, add eight five pointed
stars around the bottom half, and put a slightly larger eight pointed
star at the top (Terra and the rest of the system).  Add as many star
systems as you can and stir vigorously...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: xMessageSize=2000000
From: cwebb@mail.ctainforms.com (Christopher E. Webb)
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

Andrew M J Boulton wrote:
>
>The military are currently developing something very similar, for fitting in 
>AFVs. When you include electronic maps, data from RPV drones/spysats, the 
>ability to see from any viewpoint (including computer-generated), real-time 
>updates, etc, it gets really mind-boggling.
>
Actually, the US Army is fielding this data link system -- they're out here at
the National Training Center doing the Advanced Warfighting Experiment with a
brigade-sized force equipped with interlinked data systems.  They're not only
putting this equipment on the AFVs, though.  The poor foot soldier is getting a
pile of electronics to carry around -- a heads-up data display, a camera mounted
on the helmet (a la Aliens), and some other commo gear.  As if they don't have
enough stuff to lug around.

Christopher Webb
cwebb@mail.mscomm.com
http://www.mscomm.com/~cwebb

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:16:09 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:21:44 -0500, you wrote:

> Ha!  Vindication.  What's really interesting is the timing of this =
email.
> After the vicious beating that my "EDU is absolute" theory took from =
this
> list, I abandoned it and set up another method for limiting EDU.  I may
> have to rethink now.  :-)

Noooo !! :)

=46ine.  If Marc's definition is the one that we are going to use to =
define EDU,
then perhaps we can work on exactly WHY Education is the associated =
attribute
for approximately forty different skills.  As I mentioned earlier, EDU is
currently far too powerful if it is linked to so many skills.

Might I suggest replacing all mention of EDU as an associated attribute =
with the
INT stat, while at the same time allowing EDU to be applied to ANY =
skill--
subject to referee interpretation.

Either that, or do away with specific stat associations all together and =
adopt a
system similar to White Wolf's (ie: Gun Combat + DEX to shoot, Gun Combat=
 + EDU
to identify, Gun Combat + INT for maintenance, etc.).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:15:54 +1100 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Starports

I think that referring to the 'mainworld' as the 'best world' of a system 
is a bit limiting. Imperial cultures have a choice of a number of bodies 
in a system, and may not automatically choose that green, lush, garden 
planet for a variety of reasons: 
1. The Imperial colonists arriving at the system are Belters. Although 
there is a perfectly good agricultural world in the system, they choose 
to make the asteroid belt their home. Farms etc are of course established 
on the planet, but the starport and major population centres remain in 
the Belt. 
2. The planet is interdicted because it has a developing race. Rather 
than abandon the system entirely, the Imperium chooses to set up a base 
on the airless moon of the planet for observation. Over time, the base 
becomes strategically important, and the starport expands to Type A. 
3. Continuing unrest on a world leads to the destruction of the planet's 
downport. The starport authority leases a heavy lifter ship to move the 
highport out of orbit and elsewhere in the system for safety. They choose 
to establish operations around the local gas giant, and support 
refuelling operations. 
4. A star is discovered that lies on a strategic chokepoint (ie, difficult 
or uneconomical to bypass it; unfortunately, the star has no planets at 
all. The Imperium subsidises a corporation to build a starport orbiting 
the star, to sell imported fuel at enormously inflated prices. The starport 
effectively becomes the system 'mainworld'. 

Summary: Slavish devotion to concepts of 'mainworld' and 'starport' has 
the potential to eliminate a number of very interesting SF possibilities. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 11:53:02 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Terraforming

On 03/16/97 at 09:40 AM,  Neveron@aol.com said:

> I have never been able to spell iceberg correctly on the first
> try.  

If it wasn't for spell checkers, I'd be impossible to read. <g>

> Has anyone detemined if the Oort cloud is near enough to mine in this
> manner?

Sure.  It would take a lot of effort to do with standard Grav
Thrusters, because they don't work out that far.  If/when you get out
there, though, you just start the chuck moving and a few years later do a
course correction in the outer system, and so on.

But, you don't have to go all the way out to the Oort for icebergs. They
should be all over outer systems, in the rings of outer planets and as icy
asteriod belts.  In the Sol system there's the Kupier Belt <sp> out
between...Uranus and Neptune (??)...that should be composed of nice big icy
chunks, and it's a *lot* closer than the Oort Cloud.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1084
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 17 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1085



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures
Re: Salute!
Starship Sensors - Question about Combat Value
Re: Terraforming
Re: Martial Arts
Size of the galaxy
Pictures in t4 staships
Alien modules?
Re: Terran logo
Re: Terran logo
Re: Accrete 2
Re:Misjump
Salute!
ho
Best Armor is a couple of light years
Re: Martial Arts
Where are the Aircars?
Re: Martial Arts
Re: Salute!
Re: Prizes in the Navy
Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...
Re: Alien modules?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 12:50:46 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures

On 03/16/97 at 08:19 AM,  "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com> said:

> The same method can be set to other character types:  An agent on  route
> to an assignment; a scholar booking passage (on a non-military  ship) or
> brought in as a civilian expert ( on a military ship with  proper
> security clearance, of course); a Noble dealing with family  business
> matters of whatever form, etc.

Suz, is absolutely correct.  You can do just about anything you want.  Find
out what kind of characters your players want to play and customize your
adventures accordingly.  

Many years ago, while I was taking an anthropology course in
college, I was in an interesting game.  The GM and I got to talking one
afternoon and developed an "academic interest Traveller game". I played an
anthropologist employed by an NPC corporation to study the cultures of
various planets.  The rest of the players were crewmen on an
Merchant-Explorer:  one studied the economy and markets (guess what she was
studying <g>), one was a military
specialist (ROTC), and the other two were strictly spacemen.  All of us
could (or had to learn how to) pilot, astrogate, engineer, gun, etc as we
went.  We were assigned the mission of finding potential markets in an
unexplored subsector for the corporation.
Unfortunately, the GM graduated and got a job elsewhere and the game died
out long before my interest in it did.  Hum, I might take a shot at
recycling it one of these days.

In a game I ran last year, I started with a couple of people that wanted to
do puzzle solving type things...so at first it featured an
technological-archaeologist and a scientist.  The archaeologist was
involved in a dig at the ruin of an old base, there she found a data
crystal that she couldn't decode.  This brought the scientist into play,
building a data reader to play and decode the data on the crystal.

At this point 3 more players joined, but they wanted more combat oriented
stuff, so I put them in the local space Navy as the officers of a small
frigate, in the doghouse for some infraction and banished to the frontier. 
I integrated them into the game by having the scientist need help from the
local Navy commander to get some resources he needed.

When the data was finally decoded it pointed to a treasure store located on
a planet in the Briawl system (2 subsectors away), so the Naval commander
detached a small frigate (guess which one <g>) to transport and assist the
scientist and archaeologist.  Needless to say the journey involved several
adventures involving all concerned, culminating in the investigation on
Briawl in the middle of a local civil war.

I intended to have the results point the adventurers to another system and
another and...well you get the idea.  <g> However, the game died there when
3 of the players were transferred.  [That's what I get for playing with
active-duty Navy guys. <g>]

As an aside, I've been known to recycle everything.  <g> Foex, Briawl is
being featured in a PBEM I'm running right now, as a primitive Vrgar world
fighting occupation by the bad guys (the Zeristu Empire) and the
destination of a group of PC's seeking to salvage a 600ton cargo ship
hidden in a lake.  The PC's are good guys (the CSA), and mortal enemies of
the Zeristu so I imagine they'll eventually be getting involved with the
Vrgar freedom fighters.  In addition, one PC is an Agent type so she's on a
secret mission to make a delivery to someone on Briawl, and "just along for
the ride" as far as the salvage mission is concerned...yeah right! She
actually doesn't know what her mission really is, and won't until all the
pieces come together and *IT* happens, then I'll have fun seeing if she and
her "ride" survive.  <G>

I've never had an entertainer in one of my games, but Suz is proving that
it's an interesting choice.  As for Nobel careers...well, I'm reminded of
Lord Byron, Lord Kelvin, Lord Nelson, and the Duke of Wellington, sure they
are nobels, but their careers weren't *just* being nobels..until somebody
convinces me different I think nobel PC's also need some other career to
make them more interesting.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 16:27:57 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Salute!

On 03/16/97 at 12:06 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

> At the risk of being soundly hissed, I'm picturing the parade Imperial
> military salute as something akin to the facist salute.  Right arm held
> straight, raised slightly, about 45 degrees to the right.  For more
> "informal" occasions (passing a lieutenant on the street, for example) a
> Roman-like hand to the chest.

I can see that.  I know it has bad RW connotations, but 4300 years from now
it would be plenty of time to rehibilitate it. ;->  It sure would look and
sound *regal*, especially if you included the stomp and heel clicks from
heavy boots.

> >OTOH, I wouldn't expect Scouts to salute much of anything! ;->

> Raised fist, palm facing the scout, middle finger extended.  ;)

LOL!  

Or how about right thumb to tip of nose, extend and wiggle fingers!
Especially if you included the sound effects, brrrrrt!  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:28:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Starship Sensors - Question about Combat Value

  Well, I'm still fooling about with the various SDB designs, and I have a
question about sensors.  Under QSDS, there are major cost differences
between the "Small Military" and "Medium Military" sensor packages prior
to TL12.  The chart below compares them (data from QSDS 1.5).  Costs are
in MCr.


TL	Cost	Performance	Cost	Performance	% Cost Premium
	Small	Small		Medium	Medium		for Medium
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
9	90	A2 P3 J1	171	A4 P4 J1	190%

10	67	A4 P4 J0	254	A16 P5 J8	379%

11	88	A10 P4 J4	187	A16 P5 J16	213%

12	63	A10 P4 J10	93	A16 P5 J16	147%


  In fact, the above underestimates cost differences, since the Medium
package needs more power and more crew (though power is not as much of an
issue at TL9, since you are buying it in such big chunks).

  My question for those who play space combat regularly (my campaigns
center on trade and individual combat) is about the value of buying the
better sensors, especially for small warships like SDBs.  At TL10 in
particular, the additional sensor cost is considerable for a small warship
like an SDB - as much as one-third more (600 vs 800 MCr for a design
identical in every way otherwise).  

  Would, for example, three warships at TL10 with the better sensors be as
good as, or better than, four identical ships with the shorter-range
sensors?  Would it make any difference if the ships were SDBs, which spend
much of their time running silent and using passive sensors?

  Thanks much - I look forward to your comments.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:43:32 -0500
From: jpb@miamisci.org (Joe Block)
Subject: Re: Terraforming

In article <972162039216255@mychelle.other-plane.miamisci.org>,
Neveron@aol.com wrote:

> >In mail I write:
> >
> >>> - -Ice mining ships to transport huge iceburgs from other planets
> >>> rings and drop them on the planet to be terraformed. 
> I have never been able to spell iceberg correctly on the first try.
> Btw - Has anyone detemined if the Oort cloud is near enough to mine in this
> manner? Or am I opening up a dead thread?
> dsf

Given traveller tech, it is close enough.  With the time scale terraforming
projects are likely to be working on (centuries) it's not like you really
care if it takes a couple or 5 years for the iceball to make it to the
target.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 21:31:18 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

Mused said:

>Subject: Re: Martial Arts
>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>> >I believe in the art of ching-chunk (sound of SMG being cocked)
>> 
>> You have 30 rounds.  I can wait and hide.
>
>Two Words: Boxer Rebellion

As a good friend of mine once said, "Ammo will get you times of no courage
better than courage will get you through times of no ammo."

 Loren Wiseman

  GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:27:20 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Size of the galaxy

Derek Wildstar writes:

>I believe the rifts are supposed to be a gap between spiral arms of the
>galaxy, and probably extend for farther than you'd want to travel.

My old astronomy text has a rough diagram of the Milky Way galaxy. It's
hard to give exact numbers because stellar regions don't form borders like
countries, but the solar system (and the entire Imperium) is on the order
of 1000 parsecs from where the Orion Arm thins out. The gap between the
Orion and Sagittarius Arms, on a line from Sol to the galactic core, is
roughly 900 parsecs wide. The galactic core is about 7000 parsecs away,
getting there would require crossing over 1000 parsecs of rifts.

The rifts in Traveller's stellar maps are so tiny as to be invisible on all
but the most detailed galactic maps. I don't think most Traveller players
appreciate the size of the galaxy. The Milky Way is roughly 30000 parsecs
across, and is over 20000 times the size of the Imperium at it's peak.
There is room in the Milky Way for tens of thousands of Imperiums to
coexist.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:55:34 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Pictures in t4 staships

Is the starship picture on the back panel of T4 starships based on any
design, or is it sheer fantasy?

thanks


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	Any given program, when running, is obsolete.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:53:13 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Alien modules?

I was told by my hobby store that T$ wont have alien modules.  So how will
aliens be handled (major races like aslan etc ...)?

Thanks

SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	Any given program, when running, is obsolete.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 23:35:23 -0500 (EST)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Terran logo

At 12:18 PM 3/16/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello,
>>From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
>>Subject: Terran Confederation Logo?
>>
>>Im looking for any rendition of the Terran Federation logo (the one during
>>the Intersteller wars) or was this just the UN symbol?
>
>  From the game Imperium;  remove the fourth ring (N.Z., and the
>tips of Africa and S.A.), remove the laurels, add eight five pointed
>stars around the bottom half, and put a slightly larger eight pointed
>star at the top (Terra and the rest of the system).  Add as many star
>systems as you can and stir vigorously...
>
>        Steven Hudson
>
>
Check the Imperium section of MPGN's web site
(www.mpgn.com). I think they have it there.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:01:06 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Terran logo

On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   From the game Imperium;  remove the fourth ring (N.Z., and the
> tips of Africa and S.A.), remove the laurels, add eight five pointed
> stars around the bottom half, and put a slightly larger eight pointed
> star at the top (Terra and the rest of the system).  Add as many star
> systems as you can and stir vigorously...

By the "game" you mean the t4 rulebook or the actual board game imperium?

thanks




"Knowledge itself is power."
  - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 01:09:20 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Accrete 2

I've been searching the Web for Accrete 2, or whatever it was called - the
version of Accrete that outputs Traveller UWPs - but I can't find it. Can
someone tell me where I would find it?

Thanks,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 01:16:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re:Misjump

For those of you that don't like T4's version of Misjump rolls, try the CT
version:

Roll 2d6. A 13 or higher and the ship has misjumped. A 16 or higher and the
ship is destroyed. The Die Modifiers are:

Using unrefined fuel: +1
Naval ships: -1
Scout Ships: -2
Jump attempted within 100 diameters of world: +5
Jump attempted within 10 diameters of world: +10

I believe that the safe jump distances from gas giants and stars (having
different densities than regular terrestial bodies) are in Joe Heck's
Missouri Archive.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:15:39 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Salute!

>Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 21:35:09 -0600
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>
>On a Traveller note, would the salute survive into the 43rd century? I'd
>bet yes, Militaries being what they are.  It might not be the hand to the
>forehead we're use to.  With visored Battlesuits and Vacsuits being so
>common, maybe it's back to an open palm or something.

There could be different salutes for different uniforms.  After all, in today's army a 
soldier salutes differently depending on what weapon he's holding (longarm or sword or 
nothing).  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:10:41 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: ho

>Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:18:24 -0800
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Newbie-type questions
>
>>I have another newbie-type question that came up in the last session: how
>>do you prononunce the "hault" that shows up in nobles' names?
>
>"Ho", like the French "haut cuisine" (translation: expensive food that I
>don't like.)

The "h" is silent in the French haut.  Also, it's "haute cuisine"; cuisine is a feminine 
noun, so the modifying adjective has to agree in gender, which means add an e and 
pronounce it like "oat", but not with our English dipthongization of the vowel.  

I pronouce "hault" "o", and "haut" "howt", and "von" "fon".  "Haut" is intentionally 
wrong -- it's meant to show the blending of European pronounciations over thousands of 
years.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:19:49 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Best Armor is a couple of light years

>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:35:05 -0500 (EST)
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
>>If you don't need to fight (as in defending someone else), then the best
>>defense is to not be there.
>
>Yep. Best Armor is a couple of light years...

Sensei was talking to the class about practical stuff, and someone asked, "what would 
you do if six men with knives attacked?"  Sensei said, "I'd run away."  A few people 
laughed.  Sensei said, "I'm serious.  Don't be stupid.  Run away."  It's a true story, 
but in my friend's class, not mine.  My sensei would have agreed.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:29:29 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

Liam McCauley wrote:
> 
> At 23:33 14/03/97 -0500, Mused wrote:
> 
> >Regarding my total skepticism of all oriental martial arts:
> >I have yet to see a training studio that does not have at least twenty
> >trophies in its front window (and it has usually been open for 2 months.
> >This indicates to me that it is largely malarkey.
> 
> Well, there aren't competitions in aikido (not strictly true - one school
> has competitions).

Neither are in ninjutsu or any other "serious to take" martial arts.
Everything else ist just sport, subdued to rules that would never apply
in real fight.

CU
Buddy

Sorry mates, life is hard but unjust. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:02:05 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Where are the Aircars?

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>
>I know it doesn't seem reasonable that someone could sue the
>manufacturer for crashing their own airplace, but this is the
>USA (Usual to Sue All)...unfortunately.  I guess the Imperium has more
>reasonable product liability laws? ;->

The Imperium probably doesn't have any product liability laws, but individual worlds do. 
Ling Standard Products probably doesn't sell air/rafts on certain worlds for that 
reason.  Products liability law is really a political decision made in the light of 
historical experience.  In the USA, for a variety of reasons, we allocate compensation 
to persons injured by defective products on a strict liability basis, enforced by 
private civil actions in the courts.  There at least a zillion other ways to handle the 
problem that have been, are being, or will be tried.  For example, we could say that the 
injured person has no recourse.  We could have an insurance fund to which all 
manufacturers contribute, and which would pay claims through a simple, abbreviated 
process (unlike common law litigation).  Someone else will have to come up with some 
adventure hooks for exploiting this problem.  (Smuggling a product to a planet where the 
manufacturer refuses to sell it?)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 01:53:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

	Howdy!

On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Mused wrote:

> > You have 30 rounds.  I can wait and hide.
> 
> Two Words: Boxer Rebellion
> 
	And *how* many Boxer's died?  Who *lost*?  What *groups* were the
Japanese hunting down in the Fukien province for several years...? :-)

	You have a good point, though.  Martial arts were designed to face
armed assailants as a last resort, the first option being well armed
response.  Against firearms and 20th century weapons, and you have to be
*very* crafty (suprise, ambush, outnumber your enemies, etc.). <g>.

	What was the original point of this thread?

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:19:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Salute!

In mail you write:

> On 03/15/97 at 07:11 PM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca> said:
>
>> I think the original poster was referring to the *specific* type of 
>> salute done by the American, British and other military. (ie. fingers to 
>> eyebrow)
>
> You know, the visor origin is *probably* more right than wrong. OTOH, some
> of it might go back to tipping/removing your hat/helment.

Excuse me. but where do you think the tipping/removing hat bit *came*
from? Yep. From raising your visor!

> Then again, how about the old practice of peasents showing their respect
> by tugging their forelock.  Now explain the logic of *that* one!  ;->

I duuno. Maybe it's a token attempt to remove the hat they aren't
wearing? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:57:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Prizes in the Navy

In mail you write:

> Like I said, the trick is arranging things so you can *temporarily*
> knock out a ship's systems.  This has been something I've been
> working toward for sometime.  One thing I'm playing with is putting
> pieces of all the weapon systems, maneuver and jump drives *outside*
> the ship's armor where they can be taken out by smaller weapons at
> long range.  I'm postulating that these outside pieces are easily and
> cheaply replaced...once the fighting is over, but hard to
> repair/replace during combat.  The expensive parts stay behind thick,
> multiple armored hulls that the long range weapons don't often
> penetrate.

Y'know, if the ship building rules were more accurate, you'd get
*exactly this effect!

Why? Because the ships would need large radiators! Knock them out and
the ship *has* to cut power usage to match the reduced radiator area or
fry.

Even if we assume "magic" technology that allows using smaller (and
hotter) radiators at higher tech levels, all that does is reduce the
chance of damaging them with a given shot. If you *do* damage one of
the "more efficient" radiators, then the ship has to cut power use
*more* than if you'd taken out an equal amount of "less efficient"
radiators. 

If we were to go this way, we'd need to have an "efficiency" rating for
all ship components that use power or produce it. A 90% efficient power
plant would produce 1 MJ of heat for every 9 MJ of power it produced.
Likewise, a 90% efficient system would produce 9 MJ of "useful" output
and 1 MJ of heat for every 10 MJ of power it used. The more efficient
the system the higher the tech level required. And at a given tech
level, lower efficiency systems are cheaper to buy. 

And we'd need radiators of various efficiencies/operating temps. The
radiators would be rated in MJ/m^2 (ie each square meter of surface
devoted to them radiates so many MJ of energy). There'd also have to be
a table giving the effective temp of such radiators (based again on
MJ/m^2). This would affect detection.

You'd be required to have enough radiator area to get rid of the waste
heat from all the systems you "normally" run. And it'd be a good idea
to have enough for all the systems you *might* run at the same time.

If you don't have enough radiator area, then the excess heat is
radiated from the rest of the surface area, and the ship is assumed to
reach the required temp by the end of the turn (in other words, the
whole ship has to get a *lot* hotter). If the temp is above 400k, the
crew will die. If it's above 500k, the crew will die and various
systems fail. If it's above 1000k, the ship is ruined. 

So the general result of loss of radiator area would be to try pumping
more heat out the remaining radiators (until you hit their limit). And
trying to repair the damaged radiators. If you cn't get rid of all the
heat, and *don't* want to use the "the ship gets hotter" rule, then you
have to turn things off. 

I think that'd be *very* realistic. The captain has to choose between
sensors, weapons, life support, and drive. And he may discover that his
choices are reduced to run like hell or surrender. And one more hit
could reduce them to surrender.

BTW, for similar reasons, jumpspace *cannot* be "bright swirling
colors". The "background temp" has to be *lower* than the ship's temp,
or the ship will get hotter by absorbing radiation (light) from the
surroundings.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:43:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...

In mail you write:

> 2) then, figure out the muzzle velocity based on the max G's that the round
> can sustain, based on the length of the barrel as designed.

I've done this before, though I was approaching it from the viewpoint
of max velocity from a "mass driver" of various lengths.

         D=.5AT^2
        2D=AT^2
      2D/A=T^2
sqrt(2D/A)=T

V=AT, so

	 V=A*sqrt(2D/A)
         V=sqrt(2DA^2/A)
         V=sqrt(2DA)

> 3) finally, base muzzle energy and required energy based on that figure.

Isn't muzzle energy merely E=.5MV^2 ??

For your "pistol" we have D=15 cm (.15 m), V=5000 m/s.

    5000 = sqrt(2*.15*A)
    5000 = sqrt(.3*A)
    25e6 = .3*A
    83.333e6 = A

So you need 83 1/3 million m/s^2 of acceleration, or about 8.5 million
Gs. 

7.06 gram (btw, that is a very *light* dart. About 1/4 ounce!) at
5000 m/s gives 88.25e3 joules of kinetic energy at the muzzle.

As a crosscheck, let's use E=F*D instead of E=.5*M*V^2.

  F= 7.06 gm times 83.33e6 m/s^2 or 588.33e3 Newtons
  D= .15 m

Again we get 88.25e3 J. Which is the equivalent of about 21 grams of TNT.

Now comes the "ouch" part. It takes the round all of 60 *microseconds*
to travel the length of that barrel. So the 88.25 kJ have to be
delivered in that short a period. Which means your weapon is using 1.5
*gigawatts* during that time!

So the real trick is finding a way to deliver enough power fast enough.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 06:41:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Alien modules?

On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Solomani wrote:

> I was told by my hobby store that T$ wont have alien modules.  So how will
> aliens be handled (major races like aslan etc ...)?

Hi,

The major races will be covered in a series of "Aliens Hardbound 
Volumes."  Volume 1 is due out in August.  You can get the entire 1997 
product schedule by going to http://www.imperiumgames.com


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1085
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 17 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1086



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vilani settlement patterns
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
RE:Prizes in the Navy
martial arts
Re: ho
Re: Here's what I want to see.
Re: Alien modules?
Re: Homo Antiquitus
Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
Various: MG Fire,
Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
Re: Prizes in the Navy
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...
Imperial Nobility
Education House Rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 03:54:42 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani settlement patterns

> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 19:06:03 +0100 (MET)
> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: Vilani settlement patterns
> 
> K.C. Komosky writes:
> >       The statement that most interstellar governments are going to 
> > want to colonize the worlds closest to their homeworld first is very
> > true. That leads me to oneof my very small personal beefs with      > > Traveller background:
> >
> >       When looking at a map of the 1st Imperium, why is it the      > > Vilani got all the way to the Solomani Rim Sector, but only explored > > half of Corridor, which was RIGHT NEXT DOOR?!?!?
> >
> >       Well, has anyone ever though of any logical explanation for   > > this very bizarre pattern of Vilani settlement?
> 
> Careful with your terms; the Vilani _explored_ as far out as the      > Spinward Marches (as evidenced by the First Empire colony on Banegen  > (Vanejen to non-Vilani ;-) and possibly much further. They just didn't > _settle_ more than halfway into Corridor.

They settled much less than half of Corridor.  In Vilani & Vargr (pg 11)
the map labeled The First Imperium at its height  (circa -3500) indictes
that  the First Empire did not  even include all of subsector D but went
only as far as hexes 2701, 2801, 2804, 2806 and all of hex rows 29,
30,31 and 32. (They also settled subsectors O & P) At the spinward edge
of the First Empire Uughrae (2806) is Jump 2 from the start of a 45
system Jump 1 main (at Nuplae 2606) which covers most of subsectors B
and C.  The rest of the coreward half of Corridor (Amshagi to the
Vilani) is all accessable by Jump 2 except for 1 world.  Therefore it
should be obvious that it was not the limitations of Jump 1 and 2 ships
that prevented Vilani settlement beyond a very small part of corridor
but political/social limitations.

Vilani settlements in Corridor, Provence, Windhorn, Meeshan, Mendan, and
Amduken sectors were dominated by the Vilani bureau Makhidkarun which
dominated a total equal to about 2.5 full sectors.  The Vilani bureau
Naasirka also dominated an area equal to about 2.5 full sectors.  The
Vilani bureau Sharurshid on the other hand dominated an area equal to
about _6_  full sectors.

The Imperial Encyclopedia says (pg 46) "Each of the three bureaux was
effectively identical, but they initally espoused different
philosophies, which were based on their origins....Sharurshid,
originating with the merchant class, emphasized interstellar trade.
Makhidkarun, originating with the aristocracy, emphasized interstellat
government.  Naasirka, originating with the shugiliis, floundered after
it found that it could not control food supplies on most of the worlds
it dealt with, but it ultimately became a broad-line organization which
emphasized energy, transport, and luxury goods."

I believe that these sentances and the map of which bureaux controlled
which sector (Vilani & Vargr pg 11) contain _ALL_ the evidence we need
to understand why the Vilani Empire expanded the way it did.  

The First Empire expanded primarily to rimward because that was the
direction of space controlled by Sharurshid, the only bureaux which
emphasized interstellar trade.  The Ziru Sirka did not expand very much
to spinward or coreward because those directions were controlled by
Makhidkarun which was comparitively uninterested in expansion.  Remember
to think like a Vilani. Why would we want to explore new planets when
we're doing fine with the planets we have ?  Trading in subsector D of
Amshagi was good enough for my grandfather and it's good enough for me.

Of course the "real" reason the Vilani did not expand to spinward and
coreward was so to explain why the Spinward Marches had a vibrant
Solomani descended culture.  
 
> And you're right, that is very strange (Almost as strange as getting  > to within a few parsecs of Terra around 1000 AD and then not finding  > it despite settling most of the neighboring Dingir subsector _after_  > that.)

[snip]

> One possible solution is that the Vilani used native human races for  > labor a lot more than their history mentions and that there were an   > abundance of those to rimward and trailing but very few to Spinward   > (If that is the case then Deneb is propably a First Empire outpost and > not a native human race).

There aren't enough minor human races for this to matter, usually only a
few per sector.

We know (Droyne Alien module) that Droyne and Chirper populations are
densest in the Spinward Marches and are less common as you move out from
that central point.  We also know that Grandfather checked up on his
Droyne descendants between circa -100,000 and the present time and that
he helped them to survive. The Imperium (circa 1113) contained about 40
minor human races (Grand Census pg 28).  The Spinward Marches contain
only 1 minor human race, the Darrians.  There also do not seem to be
many minor human races in Deneb or Corridor. Given the size of the
Imperium we should expect 2 or 3 minor human races per sector, perhaps
Grandfather exterminated some of them to protect his descendants. 
Remember that we know that Humans were left on about 100 worlds but on
some they "died out".  Now many of these extinctions would have occured
at or shortly after -300,000 as human populations were unable to survive
without the technology of their ancient masters but some may have been
"ethnic cleansing" on the part of Yaskosdray.
> 
>       Hans Rancke

Peter Newman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:16:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 04:28 pm 03/12/97 +0100, you wrote:
> >Bill Rutherford wrote:
> >
> >>This has happened before - what's appropriate response?  Mass replies
> >>telling the sender to go away?  
> 	A more effective approach is a nastygram to the originator, his/her
> postmaster, and any other email addresses mentioned. First check for
> "vanity domains" using whois, and address it to the REAL postmaster. Most
> postmasters take these complaints seriously, in my experience. Here's the
> my stock reply, as modified, that I fired off.
> 
> Dear submoronic cretin (not you, Postmaster),
[BIG nastygram snipped]

Now Dave, don't you think you should stop beating around the bush and
just tell the person how you feel?

All this subtle innuendo is really not as effective.

Pete

P.S. What a perfect example of the absolute superfluosity of so called
"dirty" words.  A true language artist requires no profanity, and you've
proved that here, to make one feel insulted.   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 13:26:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: RE:Prizes in the Navy

> I've been flipping through Patrick O'Brian's "Aubrey" books -- Royal
> Navy in the early 19th century -- and have been impressed by how much
> time and energy was expended by the naval captains on the capturing
> of *prizes*.  These were either enemy warships or enemy merchantmen
> which were sold by the Navy, with a certain share of the proceeds
> going to the captain and crew of the capturing ship.
	In the RW of the time Captians, especially of the Royal Navy, fought to
remain in the Frigates because that's where the Prize Money was to be made.
And given a choice tended to avoid engaging enemy warships if there were
merchantmen to be had for the taking.  Point in fact one of the missions of the
American Frigates durring the War of 1812 was to engage enemy Frigates so as to
allow the Privateers to sieze merchant shipping with easy.
	BTW eventually the real money was to be made in Privateering, civilian
merchant adventurers with Letters of Marque, who had the right to sieze enemy
vessels on the high seas.  The Americans made Privateering into a truly
frightening weapon of economic warfare in the Revolutionary War, the
undeclaired war of the XYZ Affair and the War of 1812.  Loosing hundreds of
Privateers against their enemies and almost sweeping the seas clear of
commerce.

> This was a good system for encouraging captains to energetically pursue
> enemy shipping without blowing everything out of the water, and it was a
> good source of warships, since most of those captured would be repaired
> and put back to sea under the capturing flag.
	It was, emphasis on WAS.

> This would seem to be a natural addition to Traveller:  PCs with
> Scoutships or other mercenary craft could seek and be given letters of
> Marque, and those in active duty would be encouraged to fight more
> strenuously for promotion and their increased share of prizes.  Then
> too there could easily be other parallels: just as the French had
> better-built ships (but not as well-sailed early on), maybe the Solomani
> build great ships in the 1000-ton range, so that any sector Admiral
> would do anything she could to get ahold of one.
	The problem is one of Technology.  Durring the Age of Fighting Sail the
technology of shipbuilding was functionally identical for the various
combatants.  Therefore any vessel built by any of the combatants could be
seemlessly used by any of the others.  In Traveller, and any industrial (or
better) technological power this is no longer the case.  FoEx imagine the
difficulties of capturing a couple of old Soviet Destroyers (presuming you
could) and then maintaining them and rearming them.  Nightmare time!
	Navies design ships to fulfill the functions of their tactical doctrine
and different navies have different doctrines.  Cultures and priorities effect
the design and functions of warships too.  Not to mention the expectations of
what the Navy is going to have to fight during time of War.
	FoEx; the Royal Navy has a tremenous anti-submarine warfare capability,
this is a legacy of the Cold War when it was expected that they would need it
to hold off Soviet submarines.  The United States OTOH has a Navy designed for
power projection as we throw our weight around a lot STS on the International
stage.  It's not for nothing that Clinton (<GAG> at typing the name) admits
that in a crisis the first thing he asks is where is the nearest Carrier.
	Now the US and Royal Navies have been cooperative Naval partners for
almost a century now and our ships are "relatively" similar.  They are not
similar enough however that you could toss a British crew onto an American
ship, or visa versa, and expect them to function properly without a LOT of
fumbling around and mistakes being made.  Sure the Detroyers of both powers are
driven by gasoline fired turbines, but one uses metric measurements and the
other uses pounds and inches!  And that's just one example of thousands!
	Perhaps durring a Civil War Prizes and Prize taking might come into
vogue, essentially because the ships and doctrine on both sides is identical.
But I doubt it.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:03:11 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: martial arts

Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Mused wrote:
>> > You have 30 rounds.  I can wait and hide.
>> Two Words: Boxer Rebellion

 A clear example of your dogma running over your karma. :-)

>	And *how* many Boxer's died?  Who *lost*?  What *groups* were the
>Japanese hunting down in the Fukien province for several years...? :-)
>	You have a good point, though.  Martial arts were designed to face
>armed assailants as a last resort, the first option being well armed
>response.  Against firearms and 20th century weapons, and you have to be
>*very* crafty (suprise, ambush, outnumber your enemies, etc.). <g>.
>	What was the original point of this thread?

   The original point of this thread was the very silly concept of an
unarmed person attacking a ABD equiped foe.
   While unarmed combat has it's place in Traveller (such as on worlds with 
very high law levels), attacking folks in Battle Dress, Augmented is not
one of them.  Even if a bunch of tried to swarm just one Imperial Marine in
BDA, he would just have to touch off that chest mounted claymore... :-)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates
in the country." -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:56:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: ho

On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> >Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:18:24 -0800
> >From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> >Subject: Re: Newbie-type questions
> >
> >>I have another newbie-type question that came up in the last session: how
> >>do you prononunce the "hault" that shows up in nobles' names?
> >
> >"Ho", like the French "haut cuisine" (translation: expensive food that I
> >don't like.)
> 
> The "h" is silent in the French haut.  Also, it's "haute cuisine"; cuisine is a feminine 
> noun, so the modifying adjective has to agree in gender, which means add an e and 
> pronounce it like "oat", but not with our English dipthongization of the vowel.  
> 
> I pronouce "hault" "o", and "haut" "howt", and "von" "fon".  "Haut" is intentionally 
> wrong -- it's meant to show the blending of European pronounciations over thousands of 
> years.  
> 

That explains a lot, I was always hearing certain players refer to
(usually female) NPCs as "Ho's" (as in "Oh that Arianne, she's such a ho",
they must mean "hault" and be referring to her noble characteristics.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:58:20 +0000
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

> Well, what do you want for the campaign?  I'm using a battleship, since I
> want to experiment with troupe play.  I played an MT game where we were the
> entire crew of a 400-ton Missle Boat.  This is one of those things where the
> Referee simply has to make a decision!  If the T4 rules included rules for
> every possible situation and campaign style, they'd be the size of the
> Oxford dictionary.

Well the star trek rpg had ship assignments as part of it's character 
generation process. This was one aspect of the system I liked. 
Unfortunately I got rid of ST THE RPG, so I can't remember the ship 
assignments. I'm a fan of systems that provide as much assistance for 
the GM as possible. Anything that can give me ideas, or make my job 
easier is welcome.

An other problem with the method stated I have to pick who's going 
to be the captain, helmsman, etc. I think it would be neat to have 
the dice determine this by chance.

No problems, I'm just getting a feel for T4, to see if they've 
corrected a couple of problems I've had with the Traveller series.


Vance Scott

Vanquisher of all foes.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 01:13:29 +1100
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Alien modules?

At 06:41 17/03/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Solomani wrote:
>
>> I was told by my hobby store that T$ wont have alien modules.  So how will
>> aliens be handled (major races like aslan etc ...)?

>The major races will be covered in a series of "Aliens Hardbound 
>Volumes."  Volume 1 is due out in August.  You can get the entire 1997 
>product schedule by going to http://www.imperiumgames.com

Uhmmm.. actually, I would prefer that the major aliens were handled by a
different company altogether.


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul A Harris
Better known as Harry.

Yes, I finally have a signature.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid that I regard the universe as some practical joke being pulled
on me by some higher being(s), I'm only glad that they have made it so much
fun!
								Me.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:55:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Homo Antiquitus

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Robert Beck wrote:

> At 06:58 AM 3/13/97 +0100, Hans wrote:
> >Robert Flammang writes:
> >>>From: Joseph Chepe Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
> >> 
[snip a lot of legitimate anthropology]

A book I picked up at "buck-a-book" (translation for non-locals; place old
books that don't sell go to die, or at least be sold at serious
discounts") called "the Aquatic Ape" had a neat but kind of wacky theory
about human development. This theory said that humans had developed from
simians who had been marine mammals for a brief time.  It had a lot of
good arguments, but pretty much ignored the major arguments against.  

The picture they painted was of floating colonies of humanoids living off
of aquatic life and moving on and off of land as food supplies and safety 
permitted.

Perhaps the stock the ancients took would be more at home in water?

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:12:42 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Stations, Limits and Rifts

At 08:19 AM 3/16/97 +0000, Suzette C. Dollar wrote:
>Um, I have to take exception to this.  Anyone playing with any of my 
>characters on IRC or PBeM can vouch that I do not play military 
>characters.  My characters are fully developed and playable.  One is 
>an entertainer/agent, she is mustered out and has joined a diplomatic 
>team. One is a scholar specializing in xenobiology, she booked 
>passage on a ship and is now lost and making The Long Way Home. One   
>is a diplomat (MT), she is *not mustered out* and is investigating an 
>assassination, having been present when it happened. One is a Noble 
>*and is still active* as mustering out of the Nobles made no sense to 
>me, especially since she has been assigned to her current duty 
>(Imperial Liaison to the ISBA) by dear old Uncle Cleon (see the ISBA 
>mailing list for the further adventures of the Duchess Rose).

T4 does allow for many non-military careers.  However, as I said before,
they still seem to be less well-defined than those from the military.  I
think this is legacy design, reaching all the way back into the mists of
GDW-time, and I hope IG can shake it off eventually.  As you say, there are
no limits other than those we impose, and yet by its design the game
enables military-style characters and adventures more than it does traders
or scholars, say.  

As a further indication of this legacy, just look at the process and
terminology used in character generation: as you said, why would it make
sense for a Noble (or Agent or Entertainer or Scholar or Merchant or...) to
"muster out"?  _That_ is something that should be peculiar to the military,
not something that should be a basic part of every character's creation.  


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:27:36 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

At , Christopher E. Webb wrote:
>Andrew M J Boulton wrote:
>>
>>The military are currently developing something very similar, for fitting
in 
>>AFVs. When you include electronic maps, data from RPV drones/spysats, the 
>>ability to see from any viewpoint (including computer-generated), real-time 
>>updates, etc, it gets really mind-boggling.
>>
>Actually, the US Army is fielding this data link system -- they're out
here at
>the National Training Center doing the Advanced Warfighting Experiment with a
>brigade-sized force equipped with interlinked data systems.  They're not only
>putting this equipment on the AFVs, though.  The poor foot soldier is
getting a
>pile of electronics to carry around -- a heads-up data display, a camera
mounted
>on the helmet (a la Aliens), and some other commo gear.  As if they don't
have
>enough stuff to lug around.

And, as they found in Aliens -- and in the intelligence community in real
life (remember the Soviet carrier Kiev?) -- sometimes having too much info
is worse than not having enough.  Some method of effectively filtering
critical info in real-time is probably worth a PhD at about TL 10. :)


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 11:58:06 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Various: MG Fire,

Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com> wrote:
> While I like the Meson gun concept for its abilities (fire "through"
> stuff) I have to ask about the Rate of Fire.  How often can a Meson gun
> fire?

Depending on the gun anywhere from Space Combat ROF 10 to ROF 100.  That's
in shots per (30-minute) space combat turn.  For battlefield use, that
translates into one shot per 3 minutes (ROF 10) to one shot per 18 seconds
(ROF 100).  The higher ROF is more common.


"John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> wrote:
> I tried to argue for a jump-capable, ramscoop-refuelled colony ship intended
> to go to the *Large Magellanic Cloud*, a mere *50 kiloparsecs* away, so I
> may put a little too much faith in robust engineering, redundancy, and
> on-board maintenance...

... and ships that look like space-going WWII battleships?

  % finger wildstar
  Login: wildstar                         Name: Derek Wildstar
  Directory: /usr/wildstar                Shell: /bin/csh
  Office: Somewhere between Earth and the Greater Magellanic Cloud
  Project: Save Earth from the Gamilon Star Empire.
  Plan: We're off to outer space,
        we're leaving Mother Earth.
        To save the Human race ...


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 12:43:16 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

Bcc wildstar@qrc.com

"Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Dave wrote:
> > The difference between CG and Thrusters lay in their cost, mass, and
> > performance outside a gravity field.
> 
> However, Guy wrote:
> > 1) Thrust Plate maneuver drives provide thrust along a given axis;

Dave and I have a difference of opinion on this matter.  ;-)

> 1) Do Thruster produce only thrust or lift and thrust?

If you're asking me, thrust only.  Making them provide both lift and thrust
was something that DGP added in their starship operators' book, and it's 
something I don't agree with (for reasons that I outlined earlier).

> 2) Does Contra-Grav provide lift and thrust, or like any other maneuver drive
> only thrust?

Lift and Thrust.  Dave and I can both agree on that one, no problem.
Dave added the ability for CG to produce thrust (again, for reasons I
outlined earlier) for T4.

> 3) Assuming Thruster produce only thrust will it really be so hard in the far
> future to make gimbal mounted Thrusters that instead you install Contra-Grav?

You could do that; the disadvantage is that it would involve a lot of heavy
machinery that has to move, and whatever it saved you (in the sense of not
having to install contra-grav), would be most than balanced out by the big,
heavy machinery that requires frequent maintainance to keep it working
properly.

You could also install multiple thrust-plate drives, only one of which was
powered at any one time.  Contra-grav is cheaper, though, and requires less
surface area on many ships.

Even so (no matter how you arranged to have the T-plates produce lift), you
still have the problem of lifting a 1G T-plate ship off of a 1.2G world, and
of providing enough lift to skim a gas giant against a gravity of 1+G.


IMHO, the cheapest, simplest solution is to install contra-grav in everything
that's intended for planetary landings or for fuel skimming.  I can, however,
imagine using the gimballed T-plates, or multiple T-plates to make High-Tech
equivalents to the Harrier and Yakolev "jump-jets" (special-purpose military
fighters; the Harrier uses gimballed nozzles, while the Yak has a special
vertically-oriented jet engine that's started up for vertical maneuvers).


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:43:26 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Prizes in the Navy

In mail you write:
> Like I said, the trick is arranging things so you can *temporarily*
> knock out a ship's systems. =20

Ship Combat
I have developed a basic/simple ship to ship combat system using a mix
of several rules. However, the best part is what I borrowed from the
miniatures game "Harpoon." Damage that builds over time and critical
hits that knock major systems out. You get more critical hits depending
on the amount of damage taken in one turn. (I use the "Harpoon"
calculations to figure out damage points for my Traveller ships). One
good hit on a small ship can drop everything off line for a few-many
rounds... away boarding parities!! I envision space combat to be very
fast=85 after a few rounds the general space around the combat zone is
filled with drifting ships attempting to repair systems, stop runaway
radiation damage and/or fires (yes, it is space, but the O2 has to come
from someplace) or getting the hell out.=20

In one battle, many years ago, the Imperium player was able to repair
(due to better training) several BBs that reentered the battle zone and
crushed the Sword World fleet. This means that crew quality and damage
control has a major roll in my combat. Part of Ship Tactics is setting
up the DC on board your ship. The PC that forgets this, or to drill
his/her crew will not last long. The SW fleet went for more weapons and
less crew due to lower technology.=20

Captured Ships=20
Someplace a old Challenge or Journal talks about fleet prizes. I do not
remember where I read it and do not have access to my files. If someone
can help and review the rules it may help this discussion. In my game
this the reason for joining the IN. Else all you have to look forward to
is being away from home for a VERY long time. One good capture and you
are set for life. Recruting for the IN is very easy now.

My reason for captured ships is that the hull (my rule) is practically
indestructible. The winning side will capture the ships and tow them
back to the yard to be refitted.  Several famous ships have fought in
wars on both sides =96 captured, refit, captured, etc=85 The 5 wars with =
the
Zhodani offers all type of possibilities. =20

Hope this helps.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:07:10 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal

At 07:16 AM 3/17/97 -0600, Pete wrote:


>P.S. What a perfect example of the absolute superfluosity of so called
>"dirty" words.  A true language artist requires no profanity, and you've
>proved that here, to make one feel insulted.   

Very true.  My Drill Sergeant at Ft. Benning could spend 15 minutes
carefully explaining the surprising similarities, both physical and mental,
between you and a three-toed sloth without ever resorting to profanity.  My
*other* DS, not being quite as well equipped for a battle of wits, preferred
push-ups in great quantities.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:42:58 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...

On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:43:44 PST, you wrote:

> For your "pistol" we have D=3D15 cm (.15 m), V=3D5000 m/s.

I deleted the original email a while back but I thought it was V=3D1,500 =
m/s.

> So the real trick is finding a way to deliver enough power fast enough.

Not to mention find a recoil management system (with its own energy
requirements) capable of dealing with such recoil :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:46:31 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Imperial Nobility

There have been a few references to Nobles in various campaigns recently,
and it got me wondering: what are the rights and privileges that come with
being of a Noble rank, those had by all Imperial citizens, and those had by
people from client or out-worlds?  

It seems that most Imperial citizens have pretty good freedom of movement
and freedom of information.  Are the Nobles essentially like the English
Royals with additional Foreign Ministry duties, or is there something more
here (besides fencing and money)?  What good is it being a Noble in an
essentially egalitarian democratic society?


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:54:50 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Education House Rules

Given MM's recent posting on Education, I and a couple of my players have
redesigned our House Rules for Education.  Let me know what you think,
please (jpg@langley.mitre.org).

Note that these rules accomplish three things:
1) Sets a standard as to what the numerical values of EDU mean.
2) Reduces the amount of EDU awarded from Advanced Education.
3) Reduces the effect of EDU on tasks that are unrelated to a major.

- -----

Education in Marc Miller's Traveller
- ------------------------------------

Education measures the amount of schooling that a character has.  Whether
that schooling is formal, thus awarding a degree, or is informal does not
matter.  Education is not a measure of an ability to think or reason (which
is Intelligence), nor is it a measure of domain knowledge (which are
skills).  It does, however, imply that one has learned how to learn.

Education is absolute (almost) and can be related to the following scale.

EDU  Equivalent Formal Training
- ---  --------------------------
5    Junior High School
7    Senior High School
8    Associate/Technical
9    Undergraduate
B    Graduate
D    Doctorate
F    Post-doctorate


Education House Rules
- ---------------------

1) Anyone pursuing an advanced education (which is defined as any education
beyond senior high school) must declare a major.

2) The player completely chooses which skills he receives during his
advanced education.  For an undergraduate degree, at least two skills must
be applied to the major.  For each graduate degree, at lease one skill must
be applied to the major.

3) EDU is increased once for every two years of schooling; three skills are
added for every two years of schooling.  Honors programs remain unchanged
At the completion of a formal degree, a character will always get *at
least* the minimum education value.  For example, all characters with an
undergraduate degree will have at least a 9 EDU.

4) Graduate work would have to be in a field that is in the same genre as
the undergrad degree (see Undergraduate/Graduate Genres and their Skills
below), or the character would have to re-attend college for a certain
number of years to meet all pre-requisites (See Mike's Continuum Idea below).

5) The EDU stat DM will be applied to skills depending on the genre (See
Determining EDU Stat Bonuses below).

6) One of the options for Grad School must be the Criminology cluster
(either replace Jack-of-all-Trades or a Science/Performance).


Undergraduate/Graduate Genres and their Skills
- ----------------------------------------------

Technical - armory, astrogation, communications, computer, craftsman, 
  electronics, engineering, gravitics, mechanics, robotics, sensors. 
Physical Sciences - biology, chemistry, forensics, geology, medical, 
  physics.
Social Sciences - archeology, history, interrogation, investigation, law, 
  linguistics, philosophy, psionicology, psychology. 
Performance - art, acting, dance, music, writing.


Mike's Continuum Idea (MCI)
- ---------------------------

In order to determine how many years of pre-requisites a character needs in
order to switch genres between undergrad and grad school, consider the
following continuum which relates genres from "techie" to "artsy".

Technical <--> Physical Sciences <--> Social Sciences <--> Performance

Each "hop" through the continuum costs a character a year of pre-requisite
study (see house rule #4 above).  So, going from an Engineering
Undergraduate to a Music Graduate takes an extra 3 years of Undergraduate
work, but going from History to Archeology takes no extra years.


Determining EDU Stat Bonuses
- ----------------------------

If a character uses a skill that is in the same genre as his degree, then
all of his EDU is used to determine the task roll.

If a character uses a skill that is in an adjacent genre as his degree is
in, then one-half his EDU is used to determine the task roll.

If a character uses a skill that is two genres away from the one his degree
is in, then one-fourth his EDU is used to determine the task roll.

If a character uses a skill that in more than two genres away from the one
his degree is in, then none of his EDU is used to determine the task roll.


This house rule designed by:
- -------------------------------
  Mike Cokus    (msc@mitre.org)
  James Garriss (jpg@langley.mitre.org)
  Scott Renner  (sar@mitre.org)

 James Garriss                             
 System Engineer, MITRE               
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss      

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1086
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 18 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1087



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Battle Dress
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)
Ship Combat
[none]
Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
RE: Homo Antiquitius
Re: Martial Arts
Re: Prizes in the Navy
Re: Size of the galaxy
Re: Thudd Entries
T4 ships
Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
Re: Martial Arts
Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures
[Traveller Answer] Starship Sensor Combat Value
NAH?
Rules question - mustering out
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1085
Re: Misjump
Re: Ship Combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:00:33 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

On 16-Mar-97, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

T>>>         The problem is is that my players don't just get homicidal,
they
T>>> get *GENOCIDAL*; frying hordes of defenseless TL-0 aliens with a ship's
T>>> laser is just gravy to them.  I shudder what they'd do if someone had
T>>> actually like, say, sold them a defective wristwatch or something...
T>>
T>>So? Do like an old Christopher Anvil story. Have the "low tech" natives
T>>have a "religious" caste of "mystics". When the players try to
T>>exterminate them, the "mystics" (actually high powered psis) mop the
T>>place up with them.
T>>
T>>In the story I refer to, the Terrans were trying to get a treaty signed
T>>so they can "protect" the planet against some nasty aliens who are
T>>planning to conquer the place.
T>>
T>>When the dust clears, we have aliens cowering in the ruins of ships
T>>that've been hit by tornadoes, tidal waves, earthquakes, etc, etc. And
T>>the "Elders" of the native "mystics" are wandering around making
T>>comments to the younger "mystics"" "So this is the 'self-control'
T>>you've been bragging about. Look at this mess! ...."


T>The thing is is that I just don't like psionics.  I think that
T>basically, I broke the old GMing rule that says "Never let the players
play
T>anything wierder than the monsters".

/What the referee giveth, the referee can taketh away/.  

If you want to leave out the psionics do so, but this Christopher Anvil
story can be molded into something more appealing.  Your defenseless TL-0's
are governed by a protector race with big ships and bigger guns, they get
miffed rather easily if someone else muscles in on the slavery act.  

Whilst approaching a planet getting ready to waste millions of TL-0's the
players run into this protector race who blasts them out of the sky.  The
players ship is crippled and crashes on the planet.  The players drift in
and out of conciousness, to weak and beat up to remove themselves from the
wreckage and salvage their powerful weapons they so casually used in the
past.  Just as they fade into unconciousness they see some curious TL-0
aliens peer through the gash in the side of the ship and move menacingly
towards the players.

The players wake to find themselves held captive by the TL-0's,
tribal/ceremonial preperations are underway for a big feast, the aliens are
of course Vilani throwbacks, they've grown tired of eating each other and
would like the taste of fresh meat ;-).  There you have it, the shoe is on
the other foot, the players are without their beloved weapons and must
escape through miles of hostile wilderness to an encampment of the protector
race to steal a ship (you could let them recover some weapons from their
shipwreck - like a body pistol or a dagger :-).

If the players act like genocidal headcases let the rest of the galaxy treat
them as such, they'll soon start to run out of life (and just think of all
the fun you'll have!).

Jason Davies
- -- 
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you...always"

                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 20:50 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)

In-Reply-To: <3321EB15.F9E@well.com>

<<  The U.S. army still gives bayonet training, and the bayonet hasn't had 
serious military application since WWI >>

Not by US troops, perhaps, but the British (successfully) used them in the 
Falklands (and the Gulf?)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:49:52 -0800
From: Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>
Subject: Ship Combat

I have some questions about the ship combat system in T4, and would
like to hear from anyone interested, particularly from David Golden and
Derek Wildstar who've both been very helpful to me in the past.  Most of
my traveller experience is with CT - our group is converting to T4.

1. Sandcasters - The combat system in T4 is a little fuzzy on the use of
sandcasters.  It says they may be used against missles as well lasers,
but it does not say just how sand affects a missle - I mean it's just sand! 
SSDS mentiones a beam reduction value, but no info on what this means,
and it is not mentioned in QSDS.  The sandcasters have a capacity (i.e.
30 at TL12), but how much sand may be launched from one caster in
one turn?  Do you group them into batterys and assign a MFD?  Does the
sand go away after each turn?  If it's a high tech sand caster with a
control module to gravitically control a "shield" of sand, can the
sandcaster gunner control them like missles after they're launched?

2. Missles - why is the number of missles a MFD can control an issue? 
Can't you have missles that aquire a target and then follow it on their
own?

3. Computer Program "Select" - this program was useful in CT for taking
out drives or weapon systems.  Why was this omitted in T4?  How do
you still shoot out specific systems, and does armor then apply?

4. If a weapon hit is scorred in combat, T4 indicates that the battery is
destroyed.  Wouldn't this result is a bunch of batterys with just a few
turrets each being much bettter than a few batterys with many turrets? 
Perhaps it is better to have each such hit destroy one turret or one turret
per point of damage scorred.

5. The recent "Numeric Armor vs. Armor USP Rating" discussions on the
TML have me wondering if we've been using the right numbers in our
games.  If, say, 80 points of armor results in an armor USP of 30, which
number is used in combat?  For the ship presented in T4 and Starships,
the listed armor is which number?

6. Mass of Starships - Why is volume used to determine thrust rather
than mass?  This means that any 400 dt ship requires the same drive to
achieve 4G of thrust, regardless of the armor or systems on the ship.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:15:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Kenneth Smith <kenstcyr@cs.pdx.edu>
Subject: [none]

subscribe traveller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:48:59 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

Wildstar wrote:

[snip]

>
>IMHO, the cheapest, simplest solution is to install contra-grav in everything
>that's intended for planetary landings or for fuel skimming.  I can, however,
>imagine using the gimballed T-plates, or multiple T-plates to make High-Tech
>equivalents to the Harrier and Yakolev "jump-jets" (special-purpose military
>fighters; the Harrier uses gimballed nozzles, while the Yak has a special
>vertically-oriented jet engine that's started up for vertical maneuvers).

	Why not simply put the T-plates on the bottom?  Have it operate
like a helicopter while in a gravity well.  A low, flat configuration like
a disc or slab, and a 2G+ M-drive (or two/three independent 1G T-plate
drives with multiple small power plants for redundancy) would probably work
really well with this...  and it would take a lot of strain off the IC/AG
system.  You could do away entirely with the contragrav, and save credits,
volume, power, maintenance time and costs, and so forth.  And, ship's down
would be aligned with local down, and you wouldn't have nasty long
corridors that would suddenly turn into vertical shafts if the inertial
comps failed.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 22:46:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: RE: Homo Antiquitius

> One point which all this has missed, given that the population of
> Homo sapien and Homo erectus 300,000 years ago was probably on the
> order of one to two million, just what was the impact of the ancients
> genetic sampling (assuming at least 2000 individuals for each sample,
> some 40+ human races, thats a fairly significant slice of the
> population at the time). Or did the ancients just sample once and then
> develop all the other human races from that single sample? In which
> case the other human races are a lot closer genetically than it would
> appear. This of course assumes the ancients actually physically took
> individuals for their genetic samples, not something strictly
> neccessary; they could hav just taken genetic material.
    If memory serves, Homo Cro-magnon (sp?) our forebearers litterally appear
out of nowhere in the geological record and take control of the planet STS in
the blink of an eye even in anthropological terms.  But more on this later.
    This and other things have lead me to speculate that when Grandfather &
Children showed up they winnowed down the native proto-human stock here on
Earth and conducted their alterations here, on Earth.  Therefore the Humans
that were left behind were doubtless the ones that didn't make the "cut" to be
taken with Grandfather & Children when they left.
    Now that kind of takes the wind out of the Solomani sails now doesn't it!

    OC it's entirely possible that Humans were retransplanted on Earth.  I
believe Cro-magnon (sp?) pops up in the geological record about 50,000 years
ago?  What if some robotic collector simply sampled, or moved, some of the
dwindling survivors of failed colonies of Humans back to Earth back then.
Remember, Grandfather's been in and out of that little pocket universe of his
couple of times in the past 50,000 years. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 22:46:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

> Regarding my total skepticism of all oriental martial arts: I have
> yet to see a training studio that does not have at least twenty
> trophies in its front window (and it has usually been open for 2
> months. This indicates to me that it is largely malarkey.
    Ever take the time to look at the NAME on the trophey of who won it?  Often
those trophies were won by the founder of the studio.  Even in older studios
with WALLS of trophies if you look closely you'll see that majority of them
have been won by a handful of students.  Does this mean that the rest of the
students are crappy?  No, it simply means they don't want to go through the
trouble of enduring a tournement to win a trophy.
    Trophies are a marketing tool, a short hand that shows the founder of the
Studio knows what he or she is doing without having to beat up every potential
student that comes in through the front door.

> Regarding effectiveness of martial artists: the actual fighting skill
> is secondary to the discipline. Unless it is from a studio with 40+
> trophies after being open for a month, a person highly ranked is
> probably in VERY good condition. I am currently not. Right now, a
> determined 12 year old would probably mop the floor with my face.
    Another thing here, you seem to thing the ability to Kick Ass is the sole
reason to study the Martial Arts.  In reality it's only one of MANY reasons,
most having to do with avoiding fighting in the first place. ;) As any
intelligent person tries to do in the first place.

> Regarding the effectiveness of real martial arts:
> I believe you have forgotten several of the basic rules
    So have you.

> 1) bigger IS stronger
    IF all things are equal, often they are not.  Remember it's not the size of
the person in the fight that counts in the end... it's the amount of fight
within the person that counts. ;)

2) do not fight unarmed against armed and
    You are aware that almost all Martial Arts eventually teach you weapons
techniques?

3) ninja-schminja, ya can't karate chop a bullet
    I wouldn't even dream of trying either. ;) If you're holding a gun on me
I'll do exactly what you tell me to, but...  don't ever take your eyes off of
me and don't ever relax.  Because if you do, I will kill you.

> I believe in the art of ching-chunk (sound of SMG being cocked)
    ting-BOOM (sound of a grenade going off between your feet) :)
	"...an imperfect plan implemented immediately and violently will always
succeed better than a perfect plan." - Gen. George S. Patton

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 16:53:32 -0700
From: Mark <bdmahan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Prizes in the Navy

>Ship Combat
>I have developed a basic/simple ship to ship combat system using a mix
>of several rules. However, the best part is what I borrowed from the
>miniatures game "Harpoon." Damage that builds over time and critical
>hits that knock major systems out. You get more critical hits depending
>on the amount of damage taken in one turn.

Could you  please post this varient for the rst of us?

My center gives way, my right is pushed back, situation excellent, I am 
attacking. - Ferdinand Foch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 19:29:36 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy

Richard Hough says,
>Derek Wildstar writes:
>>I believe the rifts are supposed to be a gap between spiral arms of the
>>galaxy, and probably extend for farther than you'd want to travel.
>
>My old astronomy text has a rough diagram of the Milky Way galaxy. It's
>hard to give exact numbers because stellar regions don't form borders like
>countries, but the solar system (and the entire Imperium) is on the order
>of 1000 parsecs from where the Orion Arm thins out. The gap between the
>Orion and Sagittarius Arms, on a line from Sol to the galactic core, is
>roughly 900 parsecs wide. The galactic core is about 7000 parsecs away,
>getting there would require crossing over 1000 parsecs of rifts.
>The rifts in Traveller's stellar maps are so tiny as to be invisible on all
>but the most detailed galactic maps.

Your astronomy text is definitely getting old. The 'rifts' between the
galactic spiral arms turn out not to be rifts at all. Yes, the gas and dust
lanes are concentrated in the spiral arms, hence the star formation regions
are concentrated in the arms, hence there are a lot of young stars there -
huge associations of O and B type stars are mostly what delineate the
spiral arms of other galaxies we can see. 

But the inter-arm 'rifts' are full of stars like our own. As I understand
it, these zones are not much less dense than our local region, in terms of
older Population I stars. So in theory you could jump from star to star
across the inter-arm zones just as easily as across the Orion arm.

But your point about the incredible scale of the Galaxy is worth noting.
Given canonical Traveller jump drives, it would be a very long time indeed
before any obsessive explorer managed to get beyond the Orion Arm.

For really incredible, up-to-date maps of the Galaxy, check out the Local
Interstellar Medium website [skip this if you've heard me rave about it
before]. I don't have the URL handy, but if you search for "Local
Interstellar Medium" you will find it. There's also a link to it from the
3-D Starmap site (also a must-see):
<http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html>

The maps on the LISM site were scanned from a very good book, _The Guide to
the Galaxy_ by Nigel Henbest and Heather Couper (Cambridge, 1994). It's
packed with gorgeous color astrophotography, but it has the best, most
detailed maps of various regions of the galaxy I've ever seen. An
entertaining, in-depth description of the galaxy's structure as it is
currently understood. Highly recommended.

Here's some of the galactic data I cribbed from _The Guide to the Galaxy_:

Galactic Disc: ~100,000 light years across. In cross-section, can be
divided into three nested regions:
   Thick Disc: Intermediate-age stars between Pop'n I & II: ~4000 ly thick.
   Main Disc: contains most of the stars. ~2000 ly thick.
   Thin Disc: central plane, ~500 ly thick, contains Sol & most of the gas
& dust.

Sun is ~6.1 kiloparsecs (20,000 ly) from Galactic centre.
   Suns's orbit about Galactic centre: ~240 million years.
   Sun's 'apogalacticon' (farthest point): 107% of current distance.
   Sun's 'perigalacticon' (nearest point): 99.5% of current distance; the
Sun will reach this point in ~15 million years.

Sun is now ~50 ly (15.34 pc) above Galactic midplane.
   Maximum height: 250 ly above, in ~14 million years.
   Maximum depth: 250 ly below.
   Crosses midplane every 33 million years.

It's a shame the Sun isn't at its maximum height now, because that would
put us above the densest dust lanes and give us a grandstand view of
things. As it is, we have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees, as
it were.

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 19:33:46 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Thudd Entries

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
>Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com> wrote:
>> While I like the Meson gun concept for its abilities (fire "through"
>> stuff) I have to ask about the Rate of Fire.  How often can a Meson gu=
n
>> fire?

>>>Depending on the gun anywhere from Space Combat ROF 10 to ROF 100.  Th=
at's
in shots per (30-minute) space combat turn.  For battlefield use, that
translates into one shot per 3 minutes (ROF 10) to one shot per 18
seconds
(ROF 100).  The higher ROF is more common.<<<

Thank you! Not bad for one big gun. But is one meson gun enough ground
support for a Merc Cruiser? As an old grunt 18 seconds b/w shots is a
very long time. If you have multiple targets, and are attempting to
figure out the fire control solutions, etc ...  the time is even longer.
In 18 sec the entire battlefield can change.=20

While the meson gun is a great STS weapon, and can move some mud if you
have numbers (i.e. the IN), I still like dead fall ordnance for local
support. I seem to remember a SF story about a ship in low orbit
dropping some type of steel bars (specially designed for that) over the
target. What type of effect would that have? And would be the time on
target?=20

In arty with a 155 we had flight times up to 50-60 sec, and that could
be dangerous depending on how fast the battle was moving. Of course once
we were on target we could pump out a sustained 3 rpm per gun with 8
guns for a round every 2.5 sec. With a max. rate of fire for about 6-10
rounds per min, depending on the gun crew and how many safety procedures
you followed. Each one of these rounds could, depending on the type,
burst open above the target and drop about 88 HEAP grenades. This gives
you about 2000 - 20,000 explosions on target per min. We found out that
this would stop about anything on the field, including tanks.=20

Now I figure that your average merc is going to be outnumbered, and will
have to rely on superior tactics, C3I, and technology.  Most of your
mercs will not want, nor be able to, fight a local military of equal or
greater technology. This means many targets =85 do not think of it is
being outnumbered, think of it as having a large target selection=85 and
many of these targets will be soft.  A meson gun would be great if I
wanted to remove some bunkers, or dug in positions. But if I have two
companies looking at some militia division that intel forgot to mention
moving into my supply area, I want/need many explosions.

I could see it now, the Great Ball, fitted out like Puff, the Magic
Dragon, swooping over the battlefield with many guns blazing away,
leaving a trail of destruction. =20

Ideas?

I ask for one simple reason=85 I may start up the old game and my cast
want to be mercs!? and I need a good ship. So can I get the new revised
ships to examine. I may be interested in buying.=20

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:54:44 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: T4 ships

Does anyone know if those nice black and white ship picture in the
starship book are available in clour anywhere?

Also, why are ships so expensive in the Travvler universe (not to mention
teh weaponry and outfits to go with them).  Is there an assumption that
only governments will have the really beefy ships?

thanks


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


right makes might

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 19:19:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

Quoth Roderick Darroch Elliott:
> 	Why not simply put the T-plates on the bottom?  Have it operate
> like a helicopter while in a gravity well.

Maybe on a Famille Spofulam design... but I would _not_ want to be the
pilot, in atmosphere, of a starship-size hull trying to make helicopter-
scale slews for precise steering.  Gunning all out, sure, but NOE or
landings?  Eeeeyugh.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 21:05:24 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:
> > Regarding effectiveness of martial artists: the actual fighting skill
> > is secondary to the discipline. Unless it is from a studio with 40+
> > trophies after being open for a month, a person highly ranked is
> > probably in VERY good condition. I am currently not. Right now, a
> > determined 12 year old would probably mop the floor with my face.
>     Another thing here, you seem to thing the ability to Kick Ass is the sole
> reason to study the Martial Arts.  In reality it's only one of MANY reasons,
> most having to do with avoiding fighting in the first place. ;) As any
> intelligent person tries to do in the first place.

As I said in my first sentence of the above quote "actual fighting skill is secondary to the 
discipline" 
Martial arts afficinadoes get so defensive when someone questions the effectiveness of their 
Art. I simply regard them as overrated.

> > Regarding the effectiveness of real martial arts:
> > I believe you have forgotten several of the basic rules
>     So have you.

have not (sound of breath being held)
Is this what you expected?

> > 1) bigger IS stronger
>     IF all things are equal, often they are not.  Remember it's not the size of
> the person in the fight that counts in the end... it's the amount of fight
> within the person that counts. ;)

Agreed. I have seen bouncers who are 5'4" stare down huge brutes. But, the truth is stilll 
the bigger they are the harder they hit, and all else being equal (or not even) bigger is 
stronger. A friend of mine (fairly big guy, 6'2", 260 lbs) stated he preferrred kicking when 
he was involved in Martial Arts because "it doesn't matter if you block or not, I am big 
enough and strong enough, I'm gonna do damage anyway

> 2) do not fight unarmed against armed and
>     You are aware that almost all Martial Arts eventually teach you weapons
> techniques?

Yes. 

> > I believe in the art of ching-chunk (sound of SMG being cocked)
>     ting-BOOM (sound of a grenade going off between your feet) :)

A slightly less elegant but still effective martial arts

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 19:30:35 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures

> I've never had an entertainer in one of my games, but Suz is proving that
> it's an interesting choice.  As for Nobel careers...well, I'm reminded of
> Lord Byron, Lord Kelvin, Lord Nelson, and the Duke of Wellington, sure they
> are nobels, but their careers weren't *just* being nobels..until somebody
> convinces me different I think nobel PC's also need some other career to
> make them more interesting.
> 
> Eris

Ok, Eris!  I take that as a personal challenge!  Lord James Eris' good
friend Duchess Z. Rose Cardell is "just" a noble.  So pay attention to
that ISBA stuff! We'll see how "interesting" she is!

Suz 
 

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 22:07:26 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Starship Sensor Combat Value

Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU> asked:
> center on trade and individual combat) is about the value of buying the
> better sensors, especially for small warships like SDBs.

In general, you want the best sensors you can afford.  If you can't 
detect the enemy, you can't shoot at them.  Period.

In Joe Heck's Role-Playing Space Combat System (RPSC), the unofficial but
highly-recommended combat system for T4, the sensor rating is a favorable DM
to the sensors task.

For example, a SDB with the TL-10 "small" package would have a +4 DM on the
sensor task using passive sensors,  If an intruder ship was at Long range
(within the very edge of weapon range) the task Staggering.  Upgrading to
the "medium" package increases the DM to +5 (for passive attempts), and if
the captain decides to "light up the night" with his active sensors, a +16 DM.

OPINIONS and OBSERVATIONS:

Not all ships in the fleet have to have the same sensor suite.  Ships that
are in contact (by tight-beam maser communicator, or by comm laser) can
share sensor data - so that one ship equipped with the good sensor package
can feed targetting data to the rest of the squadron.  Sensor drones or
purpose-designed sensor ships can also be used for this purpose.

The accepted modus operandi for SDBs calls for them to make surprise attacks
against targets of opportunity (support or supply vessels, cripples, and
ships conducting fuel scooping runs), ideally employing hit-and-run and
wolf-pack tactics.  A good communications and sensor suite is essential to
this mission (ideally, SDBs should detect their targets well before they are
themselves detected).  Long "legs" (high maneuver drive rating) is also
needed in this model, so that SDBs can break off by acelleration at will.

Different tactical doctrines will call for different sensor fits.  SDBs that
are intended to work in concert with orbital weapon/sensor platforms for the
close-in defense of a world can probably dispense with an extensive sensor
suite.  These ships would recieve targetting data from the orbital platforms
and the planetary sensor network (which could achieve locks on inbound ships
far more effectively than any sensor that would fit on the SDB).  As a
backup system, an a short-ranged active sensor might be desirable (so the
SDB could acquire locks on its own if the planetary defense network were
damaged).


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:27:22 -0600
From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: NAH?

What ever happened to Dave Golden's site, and or the work that was being
done on the upcoming Naval Architects Handbook???

I think that QSDS & SSDS are ok but I cant bring myself to putting much
effort into designing ships when there is so much limitation in both
systems. 5000 ton max, am I to believe that the Imperium does not have a
ship bigger than that, even at TL12? Get serious!?! The design sequence in
MegaTraveller was even better!  

Of all the material that has been produced for T4, ship generation has been
given secondary consideration as far as I can see.  

If I am way off base here Please let me know.  I'm not trying to rain on
anyone's parade, I just would like to see something worthwhile done.

Soapbox mode off.

Comments? Questions? I will be looking forward to reading them, both
positive and negative.

______________________________
Dave Murray
DRM13@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:42:19 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Rules question - mustering out

My mail is playing up and I'm not sure if this got to the list the
first time I sent it. My apologies if I've already posted this

I've just come across a problem. If a character enrolls in ROTC or
NOTC at collage, are the terms spent at collage counted in the
mustering out process?

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  Be pure, Be strong, Behave
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 01:28:32 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1085

Hello,
>By the "game" you mean the t4 rulebook or the actual board game imperium?
>
>thanks
>
>
>"Knowledge itself is power."
>  - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
>
>------------------------------

  The board game.  Revisionists come after.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:31:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjump

In mail you write:

> For those of you that don't like T4's version of Misjump rolls, try the CT
> version:
>
> Roll 2d6. A 13 or higher and the ship has misjumped. A 16 or higher and the
> ship is destroyed. The Die Modifiers are:
>
> Using unrefined fuel: +1
> Naval ships: -1
> Scout Ships: -2
> Jump attempted within 100 diameters of world: +5
> Jump attempted within 10 diameters of world: +10

The Traveller Book (p. 51) says:
Misjump:
base 13+ (16+ means ship destroyed)
DMs:
+1  unrefined fuel (unless equipped to do so)
+5  within 100 diameters
+15 within 10 diameters

Also of interest:
Drive failure:
base: 13+
DMs:
+1 unrefined fuel (unless equipped to do so)
+1 per engineer missing from crew list
+1 per week past annual maintenance

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:13:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Ship Combat

   Hi.

> From: Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov>

> 1. Sandcasters - The combat system in T4 is a little fuzzy on the use of
> sandcasters.  It says they may be used against missles as well lasers,
> but it does not say just how sand affects a missle - I mean it's just sand! 

   "Striker" described sandcasters as "giant shotguts", which means that
   they can be used like the Phalanx machine-gun to shoot at nearby
   missiles.

> 2. Missles - why is the number of missles a MFD can control an issue? 
> Can't you have missles that aquire a target and then follow it on their
> own?

   I don't know, sorry.  Historically, Trav has always put limits on the
   number of missiles a ship can fire at once, and made those missiles
   fairly cheap, which is just the opposite of modern navies, where cost
   is the most important limiting factor (for cruise missiles, anyway).

> 3. Computer Program "Select" - this program was useful in CT for taking

   Dunno, sorry.

> 4. If a weapon hit is scorred in combat, T4 indicates that the battery is
> destroyed.  Wouldn't this result is a bunch of batterys with just a few
> turrets each being much bettter than a few batterys with many turrets? 
> Perhaps it is better to have each such hit destroy one turret or one turret
> per point of damage scorred.

   "High Guard" had a last-battery rule: if the battery that was hit was
   unique, then it's USP was reduced by one instead of being eliminated.

> 5. The recent "Numeric Armor vs. Armor USP Rating" discussions on the
> TML have me wondering if we've been using the right numbers in our
> games.  If, say, 80 points of armor results in an armor USP of 30, which
> number is used in combat?  For the ship presented in T4 and Starships,
> the listed armor is which number?

   The numbers in T4 and Starships are USP's.  In other words, use 30.

> 6. Mass of Starships - Why is volume used to determine thrust rather
> than mass?  This means that any 400 dt ship requires the same drive to
> achieve 4G of thrust, regardless of the armor or systems on the ship.

   Because mass-based design systems are a major pain in the butt, and
   for all the added complication they cause, they add very little in
   the way of realism or playability.  Volume-based design systems do,
   howver, need to have their armor subsytems tweaked to avoid abuse,
   as you point out.

   -Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1087
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 18 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1088



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Thudd Entries
RE: Size of the galaxy
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)
Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
Re: Orbital bombardment (was: Thudd Entries)
Big Guns  take 2
Protectors (was:Battle Dress)
Martial Arts
House Rule: Multiple Actions During Combat
Size of the galaxy
hault and ho
M0/FS in UK
Original Martial Arts Thread
Martial Arts - Ooooh, something I know about (a bit)
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)
Imperial Nobility
Re: Cost of living in T4
Re: Size of the galaxy
[Traveller Answer] Ship Combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 08:20:26 -0800
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: RE: Thudd Entries

On Monday, March 17, 1997 4:33 PM, Bob
Sanders[SMTP:bsanders@amghome.com] transmitted:
> 
> While the meson gun is a great STS weapon, and can move some mud if you
> have numbers (i.e. the IN), I still like dead fall ordnance for local
> support. I seem to remember a SF story about a ship in low orbit
> dropping some type of steel bars (specially designed for that) over the
> target. What type of effect would that have? And would be the time on
> target? 
> 

Ah, "Thor's Hammer"--1 gross ablative tipped/ceramic finned crowbars
with guidence packages.  Not necessarily very accurate, but extremely
devastating.  I played a prototype combat wargame (Armor:2050) where
this was brought onto the field -- everyone scattered to no effect.  

whisTLE BOOMBOOMBOOMBOOMBOOM -- not a pretty sight.  No amount of top
armor is going to save you in that situation--only pure speed.  I can't
recall the time to deploy the weapon system, but it wasn't very
substantial. The main limitation was where your platform was in orbit--
it could take a while for the satillite to get into position-- the
actual flight time, with the package fired at a couple kps was only
about a couple of minutes.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 08:32:46 -0800
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: RE: Size of the galaxy

On Monday, March 17, 1997 4:29 PM, pawn@CAM.ORG wrote:
> 
> For really incredible, up-to-date maps of the Galaxy, check out the Local
> Interstellar Medium website [skip this if you've heard me rave about it
> before]. I don't have the URL handy, but if you search for "Local
> Interstellar Medium" you will find it. There's also a link to it from the
> 3-D Starmap site (also a must-see):
> <http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html>
> 
> The maps on the LISM site were scanned from a very good book, _The Guide to
> the Galaxy_ by Nigel Henbest and Heather Couper (Cambridge, 1994). It's
> packed with gorgeous color astrophotography, but it has the best, most
> detailed maps of various regions of the galaxy I've ever seen. An
> entertaining, in-depth description of the galaxy's structure as it is
> currently understood. Highly recommended.

I second that--I purchased "Guide to the Galaxy" a few years ago--worth
every last centicredit too.  I actually saw the maps in "GtoG" a few
years earlier in and issue of "The New Scientist."

I'd love to have a 3-D map one of these days that shows the various
nebulae and dust clouds, along with the stars (It's hard to use some of
these VRML maps--no real reference to the plane of the galaxy or the
ecliptic...)
 

Jeffrey Cornish
Appian Graphics

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:43:43 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)

Andrew M J Boulton writes:
>In-Reply-To: <3321EB15.F9E@well.com>
><<  The U.S. army still gives bayonet training, and the bayonet hasn't had 
>serious military application since WWI >>
>Not by US troops, perhaps, but the British (successfully) used them in the 
>Falklands (and the Gulf?)

   Definately in the Falklands.  The Gurkas were also present.  The sight
of them with those large curved knives (Kuri) probably set more than one 17
year old conscript to quivering at the bottom of their foxhole.

   It's actually a matter of range.  At close range, cold steel is
terrifing.  Grenades, shotguns, and smgs are more efficent though.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates
in the country." -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 08:48:22 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

>        Why not simply put the T-plates on the bottom?  Have it operate
>like a helicopter while in a gravity well.  A low, flat configuration like
>a disc or slab, and a 2G+ M-drive

A 2G thruster drive is a *lot* more expensive than a 1G thruster drive +
standard CG. Most merchant ships only need a 1G drive in space - the
reduced time-to-100-diameters from 2G is negligible. The only time they need
extra acceleration is taking off and landing; for those purposes, a CG
set is a good cost-effective buy.

Some designers might chose to underpower their ship - leaving only enough 
power to run the CG when something else (sensors, weapons, or even
grav-comp) is shut down, since you'll rarely need both at once.

Military ships will want to have 2G+ thrust, and some will go for the
vertically-oriented-thrusters approach with no CG; but there are still
advantages to having seperate CG and thrusters - it lets you land if your
thrusters are destroyed, or hover while using very little power (good for
ambushes in gas giants), etc.

Also, if you want to have an Airframe hull - which gives you better 
maneuverability than a Streamlined one, and lets you make landings
even with all power out - and have vertical takeoff capability, you need a
second set of engines - which might as well be CG, since it's cheap.

(Yes, the real reason is that we wanted to keep all the classic 
Traveller deckplans with the engines at the back...sometimes I envy 2300AD,
which wasn't saddled with quite so much baggage.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:08:19 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment (was: Thudd Entries)

Jeff Cornish wrote:
> 
> On Monday, March 17, 1997 4:33 PM, Bob
> Sanders[SMTP:bsanders@amghome.com] transmitted:
> > While the meson gun is a great STS weapon, and can move some mud if you
> > have numbers (i.e. the IN), I still like dead fall ordnance for local
> > support. I seem to remember a SF story about a ship in low orbit
> > dropping some type of steel bars (specially designed for that) over the
> > target. What type of effect would that have? And would be the time on
> > target?
> >
> 
> Ah, "Thor's Hammer"--1 gross ablative tipped/ceramic finned crowbars
> with guidence packages.  Not necessarily very accurate, but extremely
> devastating.  I played a prototype combat wargame (Armor:2050) where
> this was brought onto the field -- everyone scattered to no effect.

Another example of this and a couple of other interesting weapon systems
using extensive guidance systems is _David's Sling_ by Marc Stiegler. 
Check it out for an idea what an "information based" war might be like.

Douglas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:05:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Big Guns  take 2

More fun with 3G3....
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
R E S P E C T
P O W E R
T R A D I T I O N

It has to be earned...and the Dire Wolf has earned it. This is a hulk of
a revolver, with power and range to match. 6 12.5 mm Auto Express
cased rounds, 25 cm of gleaming cold barrel. 

Respect it. 
Carry it. 
Make it your tradition.

Karolan Industries' Dire Wolf available now at select purveyors of fine
handarms. Available in satin steel, parkerized and polished nickle
finishes, 25 cm Match grade bbl, or 15 or 10 cm service grade bbl. Deluxe
case and field reloading kit and supplies avilable at extra cost, included
in Match version.
 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I have found one thing...the T4 weapons damage scale is way too
coarse to make subtle distinctions between handguns. In terms of game
stats, this is no different that the Magnum Revolver listed in the game
book, except it's somewhat heavier, and the only difference I see between
the three guns here are the weights, and the range for the shortest barrel
version (and that's only if I'm reading the conversion between 

          Damage    TL   Range     Shots     Mass Cost
Dire Wolf 25   3    8    Short     6    1.9  876
Dire Wolf 15   3    8    Short     6    1.5  738
Dire Wolf 10   3    8    VShort    6    1.3  675

     Still, this a a heck of a 'retro' weapon to lug around, It will
make a hell of a BOOM when you fire it. I envision it styled somewhat
along the lines of a Colt Walker, rather than a Peacemaker style;
distinctive nonetheless.

     Also, in a field or scout situation, the ability to make your own
reloads in the field could come in really handy. In a really primitive
situation this gun could probably even fire black powder if you had to,
and reloading cartridges with black is incredibly easy...my Dixie Gunworks
catalog shows how to do it; all you need is a nail of the right diameter
to pop out the primer, a properly drilled out chunk of wood to hold the
shell while you put in the new primer (the catalog shows a small slab of
tree branch, about 4" in diameter). Then you just stuff the shell with
black, and hand press a round ball in.

It will have nowhere NEAR the damage value of the original, and
reliability will suffer really fast if you don't clean it out after every
few rounds, but it's entirely doable, and an incredibly cheap way to make
small game or plinking rounds, expecially for old guns that may not be
able to handle the higher loads of modern ammo. 

BTW, the round they're showing being reloaded in the catalog is a .50 cal
roound with a case approximately 1/2 -3/4 " long, for a Remington rolling
block single shot pistol.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:34:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Protectors (was:Battle Dress)

   Hi.

> From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>

> T>>When the dust clears, we have aliens cowering in the ruins of ships
> T>>that've been hit by tornadoes, tidal waves, earthquakes, etc, etc. And
> T>>the "Elders" of the native "mystics" are wandering around making
> T>>comments to the younger "mystics"" "So this is the 'self-control'
> T>>you've been bragging about. Look at this mess! ...."

> If you want to leave out the psionics do so, but this Christopher Anvil
> story can be molded into something more appealing.  Your defenseless TL-0's
> are governed by a protector race with big ships and bigger guns, they get
> miffed rather easily if someone else muscles in on the slavery act.  

   I love this idea.  It would even be possible to make this "protector
   race" more ubiquitous by turning it into a holy order of knights
   similar to Fred Saberhagen's Templars.  These Templars, or whatever
   you want to call them, have bases everywhere.  Since the Imperium
   doesn't have extradition, this order has taken it on itself to haul
   those guilty of crimes against humanity back to the worlds they
   ravaged to face charges, sort of like a cross between Amnesty
   International and a mobile Nuremburg court.  Their activities will be
   less restricted on low-law-level worlds, the same worlds where
   murderous players are likely to hang out, where they are free to
   apprehend criminals, or kill them them trying.  These protector
   orders will be popular among idealistic, violent, and young nobles
   who enjoy nothing more than wasting bad guys; they are a serious
   stick to beat your players with. 8^)

   The Templars will be well organized, with a staff of lawyers to
   handle relations with the local authorities, and are liable to be
   quite popular in some locations.  If you have violent players, you
   may want to join them up with the Templars to keep them out of
   trouble!

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 18:40:31 +0100
From: marino@inrete.it (Paolo Marino)
Subject: Martial Arts

Here is my ideas for Martial Arts in T4. This has been taken from my
(forthcoming) Traveller page. Any Comments?

- ---------------------------------

T4 is a simple game, and I think that even when we try to add diversity to
the game we must strive not to bog the system down
with unnecessary complications.
Keeping this in mind, I'd like to differentiate the game a little. In real
life, the various systems of unarmed combat tend to focus
on a definite set of maneuvers. I propose to let the player choose an
abstract "style" which gives a bonus on some kind of
maneuvers.
In order to preserve play balance, the system must have some drawbacks, if
this was not the case, everybody would
automatically choose the "best" style and nobody would choose straight
Brawling any more. 

During chargen, whenever the character gets a level in Brawling he may
decide which of the three main styles he wants to
study. 

Unarmed Combat: 
     Generic unarmed combat style, pragmatic and without a particular focus.
It works exactly like Brawling. 
Soft Style: 
     Similar to Judo or Aikido. These types of MA favours defense and the
use of locks/throws instead of direct strikes. This
     style bestows a +1 bonus when using grapples and throws, and gives a -1
for punching and kicking. It gives an
     additional +1 bonus when used to defend against unarmed attacks (i.e.
gives an additional -1 to the attacker).
     Example: A Judo-3 character uses Dex+2 for strikes and Dex (or Str) +4
for Grapple/Throw. Opponents using
     unarmed attacks against the character will suffer a -4 negative DM. 
Hard Style: 
     Similar to Karate. It adds +1 modifier to skill and a +1 damage bonus
when Punching and Kicking only. Apply a -1
     penalty when using throws and grapple. 
     Example: A Karate-2 character uses Dex+1 for throws and grappling
attacks, Dex+3 for punches and kicks. If the blow
     connects, s/he will inflict 1D6+1 damage. 

- ---------------------------------

__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:55:26 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: House Rule: Multiple Actions During Combat

House Rule:  Multiple Actions During Combat

(Optimized For Use With Glenn Grant's D66 Task System)

RULE 1:  A character can perform multiple aimed fire shots up to (but not
exceeding) his skill level with a semi-automatic weapon without incurring
the multiple actions penalty.  In doing so, however, he forfets the
positive DM for aimed fire.  All shots must be fired at the same target.
The max rate of fire per round with this rule is 3.  If more than 3 shots
are fired, all shots incur the multiple actions penalty.

Here's an example (assume a cP003, DEX=7, and very short range):

                 -------- Skill Level -------------
Total Shots Fire   1        2        3        4
- ----------------
1st aimed shot   43(59%)  46(67%)  53(75%)  56(83%)
2nd aimed shot   23(25%)  46(67%)  53(75%)  56(83%)
3rd aimed shot   --       26(34%)  53(75%)  56(83%)

From this we see that if a skill level 1 person fires 1 shot, it's at
normal values.  If he fires additional shots, they suffer the penalty.

If a skill level 2 person fires 1 or 2 shots, they are both at normal
values.  If he fires additional shots, they suffer the penalty.

If a skill level 3 or higher person fires 1, 2, or 3 shots, they are all at
normal values.  If he fires additional shots, they suffer the penalty.

*****

RULE 2:  A character can move and autofire in the same round, but the
autofire incurs an additional -12 DM.

Note:  This assumes that T4 does not allow movement while autofiring.  The
rules don't state one way or the other.  But even if the rules do allow it,
I wouldn't.  It's just not realistic believable.

*****

RULE 3:  A character can move and fire multiple snapfire shots with a
semi-automatic weapon in a round, but the shots incur the multiple actions
penalty.  So firing two shots has a -12 DM for each shot, firing three
shots has a -24 DM, and so on. 

Let's try that same example (assume a cP003, DEX=7, skill level 3, and very
short range):

autofire/move   - 26 33%
snapfire/1 shot - 53 74%
snapfire/2 shots- 33 42%
snapfire/3 shots- 13  8%


This house rule contributed by:
- -------------------------------
  James Garriss (jpg@langley.mitre.org)
  Scott Renner  (sar@mitre.org)


 James Garriss                             
 System Engineer, MITRE               
 jpg@langley.mitre.org              
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss      

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:45:29 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Size of the galaxy

>From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)

>The rifts in Traveller's stellar maps are so tiny as to be invisible on all
>but the most detailed galactic maps. I don't think most Traveller players
>appreciate the size of the galaxy. The Milky Way is roughly 30000 parsecs
>across, and is over 20000 times the size of the Imperium at it's peak.
>There is room in the Milky Way for tens of thousands of Imperiums to
>coexist.

Someone in HIWG put a very nice galactic map on a web site.  It prints out as an 8.5in x 
11in sheet of paper.  The galactic core is at the top of the page, and the rim is at the 
bottom.  Known space is a very, very small square in the bottom third of the page.  The 
Zhodani core expeditions are a very, very thin line running up to just above the center 
of the page.  I'm sorry, I don't have the URL, but maybe someone from HIWG (where I'm 
cross-posting this) will post it.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:51:00 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: hault and ho

>From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
>Subject: Re: ho
>
>> I pronouce "hault" "o", and "haut" "howt", and "von" "fon".  "Haut" is intentionally
>> wrong -- it's meant to show the blending of European pronounciations over thousands 
>>of years.
>
>
>That explains a lot, I was always hearing certain players refer to
>(usually female) NPCs as "Ho's" (as in "Oh that Arianne, she's such a ho",
>they must mean "hault" and be referring to her noble characteristics.

You can try the same explanation when they're referring to a female player, and see how 
far it gets you.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:05:53 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: M0/FS in UK

=46or all you UK TMLers - Just picked up a copy of M0 from Virgin in
Liverpool. Had all the current releases up to M0/FS. Price =A314.99

I didn't buy FS after being burnt with starships. But M0 looks superb. I
reckon there's a good few weeks reading in depth, and it probably does beg
annotation by the ref! Only gripe so far is standard of Sector map and the
use of Courier in the UPPs, as has been said before. The sooner that the
DGP/GDW sector style returns....

Also, it was noticeable that the casual browsers picked up Traveller,
looked at the back *and put it straight back down again*. The game needs
some blurb. Urgently IMO.

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:51:01 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Original Martial Arts Thread

Just for your information, I've got such a backlog of TMLs (the mailer
stopped sending to me for five days, then when I resubscribed I started
getting two of everything...) that I'm working BACKWARDS through them. Thus...

>The original point of this thread was the very silly concept of an
>unarmed person attacking a ABD equiped foe.

ROTFL.

Combat from the view of the martial artist:
HIIIIIIIYAAAA! WHACK! WHACK! Oh sh*t...

Combat from the view of the ABD guy:
Hmmm. Was that a fly buzzing at me or did... oh, it's another one of *them*.
RIPPPPPPP. ABD guy walks away with half of opponent held in each power-arm...

[In my game if the players aren't scared of someone in ABD then there's
something wrong...]

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:29:55 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Martial Arts - Ooooh, something I know about (a bit)

s.johnson107@genie.com replies about Martial Arts...

Ohh ohh, something I know a little about!

>    Another thing here, you seem to thing the ability to Kick Ass is the sole
>reason to study the Martial Arts.  In reality it's only one of MANY reasons,
>most having to do with avoiding fighting in the first place. ;) As any
>intelligent person tries to do in the first place.

I agree strongly. In both Karate and Kung fu, the most basic tenet I have
been taught (and which I try to pass on to students) is that a good student
is one who avoids getting into a fight in the first place.

If only I could convince my gun-toting Traveller players of this... :-)

>> 1) bigger IS stronger
>    IF all things are equal, often they are not.  Remember it's not the size of
>the person in the fight that counts in the end... it's the amount of fight
>within the person that counts. ;)

bigger is nothing if the opponent knows the right nerve points. Sorry, but
brute strength can easily be overcome by appropriate active (nerve point) or
passive (e.g. many Aikido) techniques.

>3) ninja-schminja, ya can't karate chop a bullet
>    I wouldn't even dream of trying either. ;)

Again, my players will try this. And their characters aren't even martial
artists. They're just... er, over confident? Comes of watching too many
Schwarzenegger films. ;-)

Ah ha! Found the next reply too, from Mused <marz@HotStar.net>:

>Martial arts afficinadoes get so defensive when someone questions the
effectiveness of their Art. I simply regard them as overrated.

Depends very much upon which branch, style, etc. For example, much of modern
day Shotokan karate has been altered from its original (Okinawan) lethality
because the forms which reached the US and Europe after WWII were often
based upon the exercises for school children created by Gichin Funakoshi in
the 1920s. Naturally he didn't leave in all the nasty bits for the
children!!! :-)

>the bigger they are the harder they hit,

Depends if you're silly enough to stay in the way of the punch!

>A friend of mine (fairly big guy, 6'2", 260 lbs) stated he preferrred
kicking when 
>he was involved in Martial Arts because "it doesn't matter if you block or
not, I am big 
>enough and strong enough, I'm gonna do damage anyway

Except that kicks are generally slower than hand attacks, plus you have to
have sufficient range between you and the opponent to use a kick
effectively, plus the "you can block it if you want" theory supposes that
you don't get out of the way of the kick at the same time.

>> I believe in the art of ching-chunk (sound of SMG being cocked)
>    ting-BOOM (sound of a grenade going off between your feet) :)

There is an appropriate time and place for almost any type of combat. The
value is in having as many different options open as possible, and knowing
when to use which technique. :-)

(He says, trying to fit one paragraph into this e-mail which justifies
posting this to the TRAVELLER mailing list...) :-)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:30:30 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)

>From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
>
><<  The U.S. army still gives bayonet training, and the bayonet hasn't had
>serious military application since WWI >>
>
>Not by US troops, perhaps, but the British (successfully) used them in the
>Falklands (and the Gulf?)

In the Falklands War, the Gurkha kukri blade was also a psychological operation.  The 
Argentine troops at one point expressed their concern over facing the Gurkhas, and the 
locals started telling them stories of how the Gurkhas would typically infiltrate an 
encampment at night and behead every sleeping enemy:  "It's easy to tell if a Gurkha has 
paid a visit.  When you get up in the morning, turn your head.  If your head falls off, 
you've had a Gurkha."  I read about this in Newsweek or Time soon after the war.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:24:50 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Imperial Nobility

>From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
>
>There have been a few references to Nobles in various campaigns recently,
>and it got me wondering: what are the rights and privileges that come with
>being of a Noble rank, those had by all Imperial citizens, and those had by
>people from client or out-worlds?
>
>It seems that most Imperial citizens have pretty good freedom of movement
>and freedom of information.  Are the Nobles essentially like the English
>Royals with additional Foreign Ministry duties, or is there something more
>here (besides fencing and money)?  What good is it being a Noble in an
>essentially egalitarian democratic society?

Where do you get the impression that the Imperium is an essentially egalitarian 
democratic society?  It is ruled at the top by a hereditary autocrat, aided by 
entrenched bureaucracies and a naval and military (and internal intelligence) apparatus 
dominated by a hereditary noble class. The Imperial officials downstream, in charge of 
various regions of the Imperium, are all nobles, from the Archdukes who control several 
sectors to the Barons who control only a small part of a single world.  

All political power in the Imperium (as opposed to the member states) is held by the 
nobility, as is all significant wealth -- and when you're talking about an entity of the 
Imperium's size, "significant wealth" is such that the Sultan of Brunei is a pauper.  

Nevertheless, the Imperium is a self-limited government.  It basically lets its member 
states handle their own internal affairs.  Thus a member state can be as egalitarian and 
democratic -- or whatever -- as it wants.  

It's true that Imperial citizens have signifiant freedom of movement.  That supports the 
Imperium's policy of enhancing interstellar trade -- not least because the movement of 
labor is an essential part of interstellar trade (and of course the interstellar 
movement of goods requires people to move them).  Likewise, exploration within and 
outside the Imperium ultimately serves commercial purposes.  There is no reason for the 
Imperium to place many restrictions on freedom of movement.  

On the other hand, freedom of information doesn't really exist.  The Imperium wants to 
give the impression that information flows freely, and a lot of information does, of 
course -- otherwise commerce and society would grind to a halt.  Nevertheless, Imperial 
and corporate manipulation of the news is widespread -- look at the Psionics 
Suppressions for an example of spun news spinning a situation out of control.  Any 
entity strives to control information to the extent that it needs to do so for its own 
security (indeed, the law today even recognizes that communications between a husband 
and wife are confidential, and their disclosure cannot be forced).  The Imperium, as a 
tool for keeping wealth and power in the hands of the wealthy and powerful, certainly 
exerts substantial control over the flow of information in the Imperium.  

So, to turn to your first question, what are the rights and privileges -- and 
obligations -- of Imperial nobility (as opposed to local nobility, whose situations vary 
too much for discussion here)?  In brief, they are wealth, power, and a measure of 
security, offset or balanced by duty to serve the Imperium, the Emperor, and possibly 
the Archduke and other upstream lieges (depending on your particular oaths of fealty).  
Specifically, each patent of nobility will spell out what the holder of the patent gets 
and has to do; there are probably some Imperial edicts on point as well.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 20:35 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Cost of living in T4

In-Reply-To: <199703100326.EAA19268@ask.diku.dk>

<< >In my current PBeM, we had agreed that 1 Cr ~= $1.  

I believe that that was the original "rate of exchange" 20 years ago. I think
it is closer to 1 Cr = $1.5 to 2 today. >>

Cr1 = 1 seems about right.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:23:34 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
> 
> Someone in HIWG put a very nice galactic map on a web site.  It prints out as an 8.5in x
> 11in sheet of paper.  The galactic core is at the top of the page, and the rim is at the
> bottom.  Known space is a very, very small square in the bottom third of the page.  The
> Zhodani core expeditions are a very, very thin line running up to just above the center
> of the page.  I'm sorry, I don't have the URL, but maybe someone from HIWG (where I'm
> cross-posting this) will post it.

If not, I have that image and will send it to whoever asks for it.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 16:35:19 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Ship Combat

Mark Bradley <MBradley@gwgate.swrcb.ca.gov> asked:
> I have some questions about the ship combat system in T4, and would
> like to hear from anyone interested, particularly from David Golden and
> Derek Wildstar who've both been very helpful to me in the past.

Sure!  

First, you (or your referee) may want to go and pick up a copy of Joe Heck's
Role-Playing Space Combat System.  Although it's unofficial, I think you'll
find that it's a lot better than the combat system that comes with the basic
T4 rulebook.  At least, I think so - and I highly recommend it (however, I
did contribute to it, so I may be slighly biased).  You can retrieve a copy
over the Web, from:
     http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/rpsc/
It's available as an Adobe Acrobat document, so you can download it and
print it for reference during play.

> 1. Sandcasters - The combat system in T4 is a little fuzzy on the use of
> sandcasters.  It says they may be used against missles as well lasers,
> but it does not say just how sand affects a missle - I mean it's just sand! 

T4 includes "detonation laser" missiles.  These are missiles that use a
small nuclear charge to power (single use!) X-ray lasers.  Sand protects
against these kind of missiles, just like it protects against other laser
attacks.  Sand doesn't help against other types of missiles.

> SSDS mentiones a beam reduction value, but no info on what this means,
> and it is not mentioned in QSDS. 

QSDS is designed to the level of detail that's used by the T4 basic rules
and the RPSC.  At this level of detail, each sand cannister reduces the
strength of the incoming laser attack by 1 point.

> The sandcasters have a capacity (i.e. 30 at TL12), but how much sand
> may be launched from one caster in one turn?

One cannister.

To ease the flow of game play, RPSC (and T4 basic rules) have the sandcaster
gunner perform the scandcaster task in reaction to a laser hit.  Obviously,
there's no way that a cannister is actually launched after a hit; instead,
this simulates events on the target ship.  By detecting the attacker's
targetting sensors and/or near misses by the attacker's weapons, the
defending sandcaster gunner launches a cannister of sand.  This sand is
gravitically or electromagnetically controlled by the sandcaster gunner.

> Do you group them into batterys and assign a MFD?

Not under the present rules.

> Does the sand go away after each turn?

One cannister lasts about a turn; as the ship maneuvers and evades, the sand
is slowly dissipated (no matter how well the gunner controls it).

> If it's a high tech sand caster with a control module to gravitically
> control a "shield" of sand, can the sandcaster gunner control them like
> missles after they're launched?

I prefer to think of it more like the asteriod ring defense system used by
the Argo (Yamato) in Starblazers (Space Cruiser Yamato).  ;-)

> 2. Missles - why is the number of missles a MFD can control an issue? 

The default missiles in Traveller are guided from the firing ship.  These
are called "controlled" missiles, since they're operated by remote control
from the MFD.  Each MFD can control a certain number of missiles
(higher-tech MFDs have better computers, and can control a larger number).

> Can't you have missles that aquire a target and then follow it on their
> own?

Yes.  These would be FIMs (Fully-Indepenedent Missiles) or SIMs
(Semi-Independent Missiles).  Rules for them are not included in the basic
game.

> 3. Computer Program "Select" - this program was useful in CT for taking
> out drives or weapon systems.  Why was this omitted in T4?

The combat model used in T4 assumes extremely long ranges (up to several
light-seconds); at these ranges, hitting an enemy ship is a probabilistic
thing.  Over the course of a combat turn you fire many (anywhere from 10 to
800, depending on the weapon) shots at the enemy's possible future position,
in the hopes that one (or maybe more) of them will connect.

> How do you still shoot out specific systems, and does armor then apply?

Unless you can get very, very close to the enemy, you can't target specific
systems.  If you do manage to get this close, it'll be up to the referee to
determine how to resolve the fire.  In general idea is that there are
"surface" hit locations (things like weapon firing ports, sensor arrays, and
maneuver drive ports) that can't be armored.  "Internal" locations are
behind armor.

> 4. If a weapon hit is scorred in combat, T4 indicates that the battery is
> destroyed.

In RPSC, there are two types of weapon hits: a Weapon Mount hit, which
destroys a single weapon mount (after damage control bypasses the mount, the
battery can return to combat at reduced capacity), or Weapon Battery (an
internal hit), that knocks out the central machinery for the battery.

>  Wouldn't this result is a bunch of batterys with just a few
> turrets each being much bettter than a few batterys with many turrets? 

A few batteries with many turrets are better at hitting the target, and do
more damage when they do hit.

> Perhaps it is better to have each such hit destroy one turret or one turret
> per point of damage scorred.

RPSC does this; the T4 basic rules don't.

> 5. The recent "Numeric Armor vs. Armor USP Rating" discussions on the
> TML have me wondering if we've been using the right numbers in our
> games.  If, say, 80 points of armor results in an armor USP of 30, which
> number is used in combat?

The USP value (30) is what's used in T4 basic combat.  RPSC uses a different
armor value (based on the USP value), and it's explained in the RPSC rules.

>  For the ship presented in T4 and Starships, the listed armor is which number?

The listed value _should_ be the USP value, and this is the one you want to
use for starship combat.  The other ("SSDS value") is used only when
designing the ship with SSDS.

> 6. Mass of Starships - Why is volume used to determine thrust rather
> than mass?

Because computing the drives based on mass is a pain, and mass would be
one more column to keep track of during ship design.  SSDS (the ship design
system in the starships book) does require the designer to keep track of
a ship's mass.

> This means that any 400 dt ship requires the same drive to
> achieve 4G of thrust, regardless of the armor or systems on the ship.

It's assumed that the ship will mass no more than 15 metric tons per
displacement ton, and will average 10 metric tons per displacement ton.  The
drives are computed from volume based on this assumption, and if you round
thrust to the nearest whole G, the volume-based method will achieve the same
results as the detailed mass-based computation.

QSDS has been designed so that (unless you fill the cargo hold with steel
ingots or gold bars) you have to really try hard to build a design that
exceeds 15 metric tons mass per displacement ton of volume.


Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> "Striker" described sandcasters as "giant shotguts", which means that
> they can be used like the Phalanx machine-gun to shoot at nearby missiles.

No.  A sandcaster launches a cannister of "sand" (actually prismatic
crystals) that dissipate the energy of laser beams.  Some T4 missiles fire
lasers at their targets, so sand can be used against these missiles.

Striker was referring to the effect of a cannister of sand (which is
launched at a fairly high velocity) on unarmored or lightly-armored ground
troops.  The effect is rather like a full-body sandblaster (or, as Striker
mentioned, a giant shotgun shell).


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1088
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, March 18 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1089



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

THUDDD Voting
THUDDD Votes (March)
Special Success and Battle Dress [RAMBLING]
Terran Configuration Logo
MegaTravller -> T4
Shields?
Re: ho
Re: Terraforming
Re: Salute!
Re: Terran Configuration Logo
Solomani war history
Re: Special Success and Battle Dress [RAMBLING]
Re: Terraforming
Re: Shields?
Re: [Traveller Answer] Ship Combat
Re: Shields?
Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"
TNE/RCES Campaign needs Jump-2 and Deep-Space Refueling (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:52:22 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: THUDDD Voting

Well, I was hoping for a violation of the cardinal rule number one, Don't
Send Anything in Late, but I didn't see one.  Unfortunately, we only had
five voters for this THUDDD.

Before I announce the next THUDDD, I want to get some comments on the voting
system and what how you think it could be bettered.  I already have one
complaint (well comment really) about the voting system being a little
complex.  What say you, and how would you fix it?

Well, shortly, I will anounce the Overall winner, and the other winners.

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:34 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: THUDDD Votes (March)

Here are the results for the Official March THUDDD Competition...

The envelope please...

************************************************************
Best Overall Design:

   Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class (SSDS)

   Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au

   Tons: 800Std (SL Sph)    Volume: 11200 m3       Cost: 591.8(540.2)MCr
   Crew: 21                 High/Med Pass: 0/40    Low: 0
   Cargo: 100Std            Controls: Mil(Fib)(B)  TL: 12

   08 Size                             2 Jump Drive (80 Std/Pc Fuel)
   1x 251Mj HvyLsr(+4) 1/5-4-2-1       2 Maneuver (2G T-Plates,400MW)
   1x HvyMslTrt(+4) 4/4                1 Power Plant (2x250Mw+ 2x100Mw)
                                     167 Std Fuel (Refine 17, Scoop 167)
                                       0 Meson Screen
   1x Min Hngr (Mod Cutter)            4 Sandcasters (120)
   1x Docking Ring (50-ton Craft)      0 Nuclear Damper
                                     A10 P4 J10 Sensors (-3 Masking)
                                      30 Armour, 14 Structure

   Crew Detail - 1 Maintenance, 2 Eng - Power Plant, 6 Eng - Drives,
                 3 Electronics, 2 Maneuvering, 3 Gunnery - Other,
                 2 Command, 1 Steward and 1 Medic.

Runners Up:
    1. New Victoria Condottieri-class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
         Submitted by:   Idiot/Savant   idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
    2. The Cobra Class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
         Submitted By:   Colin Hollands   cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com

************************************************************
Most Likely to Use in a Game:
    1. Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class (SSDS)
         Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au
    2. New Victoria Condottieri-class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
         Submitted by:   Idiot/Savant   idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
    3. "Horus" class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
         Submitted by:   Craig Berry   cberry@cinenet.net

************************************************************
Closest to Design Paramaters:
    1. New Victoria Condottieri-class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
         Submitted by:   Idiot/Savant   idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
    2. Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class (SSDS)
         Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au
tie 3. "Horus" class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
         Submitted by:   Craig Berry   cberry@cinenet.net
       Gladius-class Light Paramilitary Transport
         Submitted By:   scharlto@avalon.com
       Long Yard's Heracules Class Mercenary Cruiser(SSDS)
         Submitted by:   John J. Long   jlong@mail2.wilmington.net

************************************************************
Cheapest Efficient Design:  (note, this is not the cheapest design)
    1. New Victoria Condottieri-class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
         Submitted by:   Idiot/Savant   idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
    2. transRift Engineering Warrior-Class Paramilitary Transport (SSDS)
         Submitted by:   J_Lambert   J_Lambert@compuserve.com
    3. ASASA Huscarle class assault cruiser (QSDS v1.5)
         Submitted by:   Shane Thomas   s.n.thomas@aelfgyva.demon.co.uk

************************************************************
Most Interesting Design:
    1. The Cobra Class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
         Submitted By:   Colin Hollands   cmhtml@london.mis.slb.com
    2. "Horus" class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS 1.5)
         Submitted by:   Craig Berry   cberry@cinenet.net
tie 3. New Victoria Condottieri-class Mercenary Cruiser (QSDS1.5)
         Submitted by:   Idiot/Savant   idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
       transRift Engineering Warrior-Class Paramilitary Transport (SSDS)
         Submitted by:   J_Lambert   J_Lambert@compuserve.com
       Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class (SSDS)
         Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au

************************************************************
************************************************************

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 22:23:10 -0000
From: "Dominic Reynolds" <nz19@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Special Success and Battle Dress [RAMBLING]

Motto "Lucky Strike"

Now I can remember a  CT game in which a four man
BD unit attempted to board a merchant ship.

One was shot at with a tripod mounted LMG when he 
entered engineering.

One was punched (a twelve was rolled - always a hit)

One was blow apart by a big trak full of plastic explosive

One was incapacitated by a knife thrown by a 67 year old 
smuggler (18 plus to hit)
{Dex + Blade + 1d6}

Now that game was fun, however unlikely.  Prison planet
was a good follow up.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

Now does the special success in the T4 game mean you get
lucky, even against someone in Battle dress.

The person in BD goes off to join a peace cult
The person in BD chokes on last meal.
The BD was made by General Products and should have been
subject to recall/defect notices.
The BD was second hand the new stuff being sold on the 
black market by the quartermaster
The person in BD takes one dose of combat drug too many
The person in BD has a vendetta against one of the squad.
The second tank of oxygen was filtered badly on an exotic
atmosphere world.
The Virus has control of the Battledress and wishes its occupant
dead first.

Not to mention the Ferrosolvens et al infestation

- --
Dominic Reynolds      nz19@dial.pipex.com
             

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 14:56:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Terran Configuration Logo

For solomani (sorry, forgot the rest of your email alias) and any others
interested in a colorful Terran Configuration logo, see my web page at:

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.html

I've put it under a temporary link, right beneath the little red Imperial
Sunburst on the main page. This would be the symbol used by Terrans during
the Interstellar Wars era.

Just more proof you can have a lot of fun with a scanner and Photoshop! <g>

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:15:35 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: MegaTravller -> T4

Im curious, i never bought megatravller stuff (only traveller) and have
only just started buying T4 material after a long holiday from traveller -
what happened?

Last thing i read was that the Imperium was suffering a civil war after
the assination of the emperor.  Next thing i know we have the third (or is
it fourth?) imperium with a tech peak of 12? 

If i remember correctly, Traveller had a peak of 14 with techs of 16+
being "ancient" technology.


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN                      http://www.electric-rain.net/


Any instrument when droped will always roll to the most inaccessible corner.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:21:14 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Shields?

Can anyone tell me why Traveller never had shields? You have screens, but
not "shields" in the traditional sci-fi sense (like star trek) or is this
considered a "not serious" sci-fi technology, becaus ive noticed most
serious sci-fi doesnt have shields (All asimov universes, Babylon5, dune
etc even star wars!  Except for the death star in Jedi, which seemed to
be a special case)

thanks


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN                      http://www.electric-rain.net/


Any instrument when droped will always roll to the most inaccessible corner.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:52:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: ho

In a message dated 97-03-17 09:38:17 EST, Pete writes:

>That explains a lot, I was always hearing certain players refer to
>(usually female) NPCs as "Ho's" (as in "Oh that Arianne, she's such a ho",
>they must mean "hault" and be referring to her noble characteristics.

No Pete, we meant Ho, as in Cheap, Nasty, Pushy and Obnoxious. Unfortunatly,
those are her noble characteristics. This only applies to Arianne. Other Hos
are Hauts, 'cause there paying the bills.

dsf

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:54:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terraforming

In a message dated 97-03-16 17:20:09 EST, Eris writes:

>Sure.  It would take a lot of effort to do with standard Grav
>Thrusters, because they don't work out that far.  If/when you get out
>there, though, you just start the chuck moving and a few years later do a
>course correction in the outer system, and so on.

Couldn't you just nudge them (Iceburgs in the Oort cloud) making them into
comets, and catch them later? Yes it's a drag hanging out there at the edge
of the system, but I bet the money's good. This is assuming you can't find
big enough chunks of ice closer in.
dsf
If I spell check my mail it get eaten and cyberspace throws it up in some
very strange places. Ooh I do so love windows!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:56:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Salute!

In a message dated 97-03-16 16:30:43 EST, Dberry writes:

>>OTOH, I wouldn't expect Scouts to salute much of anything! ;->
>
>Raised fist, palm facing the scout, middle finger extended.  ;)
With or without the tradtional greeting of "Yah Mutha"
just curious.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:33:28 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Terran Configuration Logo

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Chris Griffen wrote:

Thanks for the logo - exactly what i was  after.  You did a nice job.

> For solomani (sorry, forgot the rest of your email alias) and any others
> interested in a colorful Terran Configuration logo, see my web page at:
> 
> http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.html
> 
> I've put it under a temporary link, right beneath the little red Imperial
> Sunburst on the main page. This would be the symbol used by Terrans during
> the Interstellar Wars era.
> 
> Just more proof you can have a lot of fun with a scanner and Photoshop! <g>
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 


Im out like bell bottom trousers,

michl

electric RAIN                      http://www.electric-rain.net/


A faint heart can only ever win you a dull and boring life.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:32:38 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Solomani war history

Argh!

I have lost my Solomani Alien module, and since i cant buy a T4 equivalent
yet nor the old module, i was wondering if some kind sole new of any place
that listed the intersteller war history on the web?  I remember most of
it, but im not sure on dates ...

First terran Jump?
Date of the first war?
Date of the last war (that took out the imperium)?

thanks

Im out like bell bottom trousers,

michl

electric RAIN                      http://www.electric-rain.net/


A faint heart can only ever win you a dull and boring life.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:27:55 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: Special Success and Battle Dress [RAMBLING]

Dominic Reynolds wrote:
> 
> Motto "Lucky Strike"
[amusing anecdotes snipped]
> Now does the special success in the T4 game mean you get
> lucky, even against someone in Battle dress.

Well, that depends on what you're trying to do doesn't it?

Karate chop.... well it's two steps worse than an "Impossible" task, so
if you can hit at all it's going to be an SS.  So: you managed to jam a
servo - one joint on the DB locks, slowing him down some but not much
else.

Knife... See Karate chop.

Hand gun... OK, you can hit, but it doesn't DO anything normally.  So:
You hit a joint, joint no longer works, and does half damage to the
person inside.

Big gun... Well it normally isn't going to do much, but... So: you
caught a weak spot (joint, place hit before, natural fracture, external
system pod)  one system on the DB ceases to function, depending on the
item broken anywhere from double damage (minus armor) to nothing occurs
to the person inside.

Claymore... Well, without a SS you don't hit anyway, so nothing special,
you just get to hit.

FGMP... You're WORRIED about DB?

Douglas McCorison

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:56:44 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Terraforming

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 Neveron@aol.com wrote:

Why use iceburgs at all?

Why not use giant reflectors circling the planet to warm it up, melt the
ice caps (assuming your terraforming a world with some amount of water)
then introduce various lifeforms like microbes and then more complex
things like plant life. 

> In a message dated 97-03-16 17:20:09 EST, Eris writes:
> 
> >Sure.  It would take a lot of effort to do with standard Grav
> >Thrusters, because they don't work out that far.  If/when you get out
> >there, though, you just start the chuck moving and a few years later do a
> >course correction in the outer system, and so on.
> 
> Couldn't you just nudge them (Iceburgs in the Oort cloud) making them into
> comets, and catch them later? Yes it's a drag hanging out there at the edge
> of the system, but I bet the money's good. This is assuming you can't find
> big enough chunks of ice closer in.
> dsf
> If I spell check my mail it get eaten and cyberspace throws it up in some
> very strange places. Ooh I do so love windows!
> 
> 
> 


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN                      http://www.electric-rain.net/


Ho-Ho
INTERCHANGE
The sea: a silver flash without a sound;
But a dry surf of leaves along the ground.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 01:26:32 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Shields?

At 11:21 PM 3/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>Can anyone tell me why Traveller never had shields? You have screens, but
>not "shields" in the traditional sci-fi sense (like star trek) or is this
>considered a "not serious" sci-fi technology, becaus ive noticed most
>serious sci-fi doesnt have shields (All asimov universes, Babylon5, dune
>etc even star wars!  Except for the death star in Jedi, which seemed to
>be a special case)
>
>thanks
>
>
>SaHua,
>
>michl
>
>electric RAIN                     http://www.electric-rain.net/
>
>
>Any instrument when droped will always roll to the most inaccessible corner.
>
>
>

May be a matter of semantics. Sandcasters could be considered a form of
shields in that the sand is manipulated and shaped by the ejecting ship to
stop inbound energy weapons. It works best on lasers, but the assumption
(per TNE) of missle warheads acutally being disposable high intensity X-ray
lasers, makes it effective against missiles as well.

Meson 'screens' are also shields, highly specialized shields for a specific
form of attack, but shields all the same.

Black and White Globe generators also function as shields, in a more classic
sense, but with special considerations and potential penalties.

Traveller doesn't have a generic stops everything and it's cousin with no
cost shields that some Sci-Fi uses.  After all, when Spock says that the
deflectors are down to 50%, what is it 50% of? In Traveller, we can use 50%
of the sandcaster cannisters; the mesons screens may have only 5 megawatts
of power input instead of the normal 10, or the Black/White globe energy
sinks (capacitors) may be 50% loaded.

Our handwaving explanations may be be of any higher quality, but we do have
a wider variety of movemets to use.

Garry
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 20:35:54 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answer] Ship Combat

Joe _Walsh_ wrote:
> I'm happy to see you continue to give RPSC endorsements. But...
> Ummm...shouldn't that be "Joe Walsh", or did Joe Heck write one, too? :)

Yes, it should!

Boy is my face red!  I'm EXTREMELY sorry, Joe; I can usually tell you and
Joe Heck apart on the 'net - there's no excuse for my making that kind of
error.

Does a public apology and correction help?


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:35:34 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Shields?

At 10:21 am 03/19/97 +1100, you wrote:
>
>Can anyone tell me why Traveller never had shields? You have screens, but
>not "shields" in the traditional sci-fi sense (like star trek) or is this
>considered a "not serious" sci-fi technology, becaus ive noticed most
>serious sci-fi doesnt have shields (All asimov universes, Babylon5, dune
>etc even star wars!  Except for the death star in Jedi, which seemed to
>be a special case)

     Traveller never had shields like Star Trek because Traveller is not Star
Trek.

     Seriously, different imaginary universes behave differently. Your
assumption that Traveller is more of a "hard" science fiction universe than
Star Trek or Star Wars is probably correct. That's what attracted me to it
originally, and is why it's the only game I've kept an interest in for a
decade and a half. Traveller has always _tried_ to have some kind of
explanation for most of its futuristic things, anti-gravity and jump drives
aside.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 21:09:56 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>    Why not simply put the T-plates on the bottom?

You _could_, but the fact remains that most Traveller ships that have
deckplans aren't designed that way.

> A low, flat configuration like a disc or slab, and a 2G+ M-drive

It's worth noting that a 2G T-Plate drive is larger, more expensive, and
uses more power than a 1G T-Plate drive and CG Lifters (CG Lifters are about
a third the cost and power consumption of equivalent T-Plates).  A military
fighter might be designed this way, for the additional maneuverability.
In this case, the cost premium would be worth it.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 21:09:56 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Question] "Grav Drives"

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>    Why not simply put the T-plates on the bottom?

You _could_, but the fact remains that most Traveller ships that have
deckplans aren't designed that way.

> A low, flat configuration like a disc or slab, and a 2G+ M-drive

It's worth noting that a 2G T-Plate drive is larger, more expensive, and
uses more power than a 1G T-Plate drive and CG Lifters (CG Lifters are about
a third the cost and power consumption of equivalent T-Plates).  A military
fighter might be designed this way, for the additional maneuverability.
In this case, the cost premium would be worth it.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:25:09 -0500 (EST)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: TNE/RCES Campaign needs Jump-2 and Deep-Space Refueling (long)

When I first got _Path_of_Tears_, I copied the star maps for Aubaine and
Oriflamme subsectors and cut-and-pasted them together.  (I added the four
additional subsectors from _Smash_and_Grab_ when I got that.)  I also
included the 17xx column for So Skire subsector (based on an old issue of
the Keith Brothers' _High_Passage_ magazine), for reasons that will become
apparent below.  

A cursory analysis of the astrography and Tech Levels of the RC will lead
one to the assumption that jump-2 (not jump-1) is the default capability
of starships in the RC, for the following reasons:

1.  Jump-1 is insufficient for a starship to be able to go from any one
system in the RC to any other system in the RC, however long a path the
ship's captain is willing to traverse.  (FWIW: Almost every J-1 free
trader IMC has an additional 20 tons of fuel tankage installed in the
cargo hold to give them a 2-parsec range.)

2.  Jump-3 is a luxury.  TL-12 J-3 ships can be given their annual
maintenance *only* at Aubaine, whereas TL-11 J-2 ships can be maintained
at Aurora or Kruyter, possibly even Eos, as well as at Aubaine.

With this assumption in mind, I took a copy of my cut-and-pasted map, and
I used a yellow highlighter to trace every J-1 and J-2 connection possible
for every star system on the map.  I then colored in with blue highlighter 
the "gulfs" or "voids" that were left behind.  The resulting colorized map
vividly illustrated the weakness inherent to the astrography of the RC;
namely, that even with J-2, a ship could take an enormous number of jumps
to go from one system in the RC to another, regardless of the true
distance between the systems.  

I also mentioned this weakness in a paper I posted to the TML ("Relic IISS
Ships and Deep-Space Refueling" or some such title).  In this paper, I
came to the following conclusions:

1.  Relic Xboats would be valuable reserves of spare high-performance
jump drive components.

2.  Relic Xboat Tenders would be modified for use as tankers, and could
be used by the RC to support a series of deep-space fueling stations.  A
squadron based at Baldur would support the d/s sites at 0833 and 1034.
Another squadron based at Shenandoah would support the d/s sites at 0938
and 1137.  (BTW: The publicly stated reason for these stations is "to
promote interstellar commerce within the RC"; the fact that these stations
expedite *official* [i.e., non-civilian] traffic is not entirely a
coincidence.  :-)

My reasoning for the location of these d/s sites was based on the "gulfs"
I discovered by my colored map.  For a campaign *not* using the d/s sites,
these gulfs would force starships to make a longer circuit around the
perimeter of a gulf, depending on where the captain was and where he
wanted to go.  In other words, these gulfs *cannot* be crossed by J-2
ships; they can only be *circumnavigated*.  

The first gulf is circuited as follows:  Helios connects to L'steich
(1333) which connects to Junak (1432) which connects to Nimz (1633) which
connects to Lamnath (1735/So Skire) which connects to Tuer (1636) which
connects to Teldora (1437) which connects to Spencer which connects to
Shenandoah which connects to Lucifer which connects to Conner (0840) which
connects to Seliga (0640) which connects to Schall which connects to
Aubaine and/or Phoebus; Phoebus connects to Spires which connects to Zloga
which connects to Oriflamme and/or Helios.  

The second of the two large gulfs is circuited as follows:  Helios
connects to L'steich (1333) which connects to Corrig (1331) which connects
to Bestor (1131) which connects to Ra, Enkidu, and/or Baldur; both Ra and
Enkidu connect to Nike Nimbus which connects to Eos which connects to
Adrian (0432) which connects to Fija which connects to Aurora which
connects to Kruyter which connects to Spires which connects to Zlogha
which connects to Oriflamme and/or Helios.

There is a third, smaller gulf circuited by Aurora, Kruyter, Phoebus,
Aubaine, Schall, Vezina, and Apollo; however, as any system on this
circuit is three jumps away or less from any other, this isn't nearly as
serious a problem.  

The d/s sites at 0833 and 1034 take care of the first gulf, and the d/s
sites at 0938 and 1137 take care of the second gulf.  The d/s sites at
1034 and 1137 are so important to Oriflamme that the Oriflamme system navy
has a squadron of its own to give additional support to these sites (and
to help cover up their support of the secret d/s sites some Oriflammen
technarchs have built at 1434, 1435, and 1535, but that's /another/
story...  :-)

Even with the d/s sites, Adrian (0432) is still the best (i.e., shortest)
path for traffic between Fija and either Eos or Nike Nimbus.  Thus, IMC,
Adrian is the site a small facility that makes some of its money refueling
these ships.  (*Most* of its money is made from scavenging the TL-14 relic
equipment.)  

Also, some crazy misanthrope of a belter (i.e., a retired PC :-)
discovered a cometary body in deep space at 0636 which he's converted into
a d/s site to expedite high-priority traffic between Aurora (HQ RCN) and
Aubaine (RC capital).  As the character in question is already filthy rich
and a loner besides, this suits him just fine (it takes all kinds, I
guess...).  This takes care of any high-priority traffic around the third
gulf wanting to trim one or two weeks off their transit time.  

*******************************************************************************

CIN/Aurora, 1/X/1202:

An official spokesman from the Public Affairs Office of the RC Navy issued
a press statement today announcing the establishment of four deep-space
refueling stations within the RC borders.  This doesn't come as much of a
surprise, as the existence of these four d/s stations has been one of the
worst-kept secrets in the history of the RC.  The four stations are
located at 0833/Aubaine, 0938/Oriflamme, 1034/Oriflamme, and
1137/Oriflamme.  These stations are being supported by two squadrons of
Oasis-class tankers (modified relic Xboat tenders).  Sahara squadron is
based out of Baldur and services the stations at 0833 and 1034.  Gobi
squadron is based out of Shenandoah and services the stations at 0938 and
1137.  

These stations are open to the general starfaring public (in fact, these
stations were supposedly established "to promote interstellar commerce
within the RC"), but be advised that the stations themselves and the
surrounding "airspace" within a radius of 300,000 kilometers are under
martial law due to the hazardous environment.  Be sure to follow *all*
established protocols for these situations.  

Also included in this press release was an announcement that the RCN is
accepting bids from civilian enterprises to assume responsibility for
maintaining these stations.  

*******************************************************************************

CIN/Aubaine, 1/IV, 1202:

McKenzie Holdings, a salvage company registered out of Aubaine, has
formally established a legal claim to Adrian (0432/Aubaine; new UWP is
D426112-9).  The new starport is class D, and was expanded from a former
class G spaceport.  The new starport has a few repair bays capable of
handling small ships (200 tons or less).  Refined fuel is available at the
starport, as well as lodging and food.  Currently, about 30 sentients 
permanently live at McKenzie Station.  

McKenzie Holdings has provided RCES with a small facility for use as a
scout base, at no cost to RCES.  They have also formally petitioned for
status as a client-state of the RC.  

McKenzie Holdings makes most of its money at Adrian by salvaging the relic
TL-14 equipment.  They also make some money servicing the ships going
between Fija and Eos and Nike Nimbus (as the shortest route from Fija to
either of these worlds is by way of Adrian).  

*******************************************************************************

Data for 1202 (NE 2):

Orbit_____Name____________UWP_______Bases___Trade_Codes_____Pop__Alg__
Primary   Linette         M7 V
  0       Olivia          SGG (UWP Size 50)
     1    (ring system)   YR00000-0
     6    George          YS00000-0         Ba Va
  1       Phillipe        SGG (UWP Size 60)
     5    Theresa         YS00000-0         Ba Va
     8    Simon           YS00000-0         Ba Va
    35    Adrian          D426112-9  S      Lo Ni Cm        3    CR
  2       Sebastian       LGG (UWP Size 135)
     2    (ring system)   YR00000-0
     4    Richard         Y200000-0         Ba Va Ir        0    --
     6    Gerard          YS00000-0         Ba Va
     7    Jean-Pierre     YS00000-0         Ba Va
    25    Evelyn          Y100000-0         Ba Va
    40    Emile           Y100000-0         Ba Va

Previous Data:

Date______Name____________UWP_______Bases___Trade_Codes_____Pop__
(1120)    Adrian          A42667A-E  S      Ni              1
__________Richard_________H20011B-D_________Lo_Ni_Va_Re_____8____
(1129)    Adrian          C426684-9         Ni              1
__________Richard_________Y200000-0_________Ba_Va_Ir________0____
(1200)    Adrian          X426000-0         Ba              0
__________Richard_________Y200000-0_________Ba_Va_Ir________0____

Notes:

(Trade Codes): Ir: Imperial ruins.  Re: Research lab.
(Allegiances): CR: Client-state of the Reformation Coalition.

Note that Adrian was in a Frontier/War Zone during the Hard Times.  

*******************************************************************************

Maria "Rocky" McKenzie; UPP: 5768B5-8; Homeworld: Aubaine; Init: 2; 
  Age 35 (4 terms: Univ.; Belter R3; Scientist O2)
Skills: Admin/Legal 1/12, Astrogation 2/13, Biology 1/12, Carousing 2/7,
  Chemistry 1/12, Climbing 3/9, Communications 1/12, Computer 2/13,
  Construction 1/12, Electronics 2/13, Excavation 7/18, Farming 1/9,
  Gambling 2/10, Geology 9/20, Gravitics 1/12, Ground Vehicle (Wheeled
  Vehicle) 2/9, Guard/Hunting Beasts 5/11, Gunnery (Missiles) 2/13,
  History 7/18, Hostile Environment (Zero-G Environment) 4/10, Instruction
  3/8, Languages (Linguistics 5/10), Leadership 4/9, Luck 4/12, Machinist
  1/8, Map 1/12, Mechanic 3/8, Medical (Trauma Aid) 1/12, Navigation 1/9, 
  Observation 2/10, Persuasion 1/6, Physics 1/12, Pilot (Grav) 2/9, Pilot
  (Interface) 3/10, RCV Operations 1/12, Recruiting 1/6, Research 4/12,
  Robotics 1/12, Sensors 3/11, Ship's Engineering 2/13, Slug Weapon (Slug
  Pistol) 2/7, Starship Architecture 1/12, Streetwise 2/10, Survey 1/9,
  Survival 1/9, Swimming 0/6, Vacuum/Environment Suit 5/11, Willpower 3/11
Contacts: 1 academic (offworld), 1 business, 1 law enforcement, 1
  scientist (offworld)
MCr 2+; highly modified scout/courier "Necessity" (originally received it
  as a "seeker"; since modified it to include an 8-ton lab; wear value 3;
  no payments)
Other: BS in Archeology (i.e., Excavation and History) and Geology, Double 
  Major
Appearance: Light brown hair, neck length; black eyes; average height;
  small size 

(The high number of level-1 and level-2 skills is because she was used as
a "spare" PC for about one game year.)

"Rocky" is the owner of McKenzie Holdings and is the closest thing to an
actual "commander" they have at McKenzie Station (she would describe her
job as "chief fire-stomper and all-around troubleshooter").  She is seldom
without one of her pets (they look like a cross between a flying squirrel
and a bat).  

Alexis, Darius, Julia, and Xerxes
Omnivore/Gatherer (forest terrain)
Wt.: 1 kg.; Hits: 1; Wpn.: Teeth (Asset: 8; Dmg.: 1/2; Pen.: Nil); 
  Init: 7; Armor: None; F8/A5; Speed: 8/16/32 (flying)

Joshua "Flim-Flam" McKenzie; UPP: 565988-7; Homeworld: Aubaine; Init: 2;
  Age 33 (4 terms: Trader E2; Flt. Acad.; Trader O3)
Skills: Admin/Legal 4/12, Astrogation 3/11, Bribery 2/10, Carousing 2/10,
  Computer 0/8, Forgery 4/10, Gambling 3/12, Leadership 3/11, Liaison
  5/13, Marketing 3/11, Mechanic 2/7, Persuasion 3/11, Pilot (Interface)
  3/9, Sensors 4/13, Ship's Engineering 6/14, Slug Weapon (Slug Pistol)
  2/7, Streetwise 4/13, Swimming 0/5, Vacuum/Environment Suit 4/9,
  Willpower 0/9
Contacts: 1 criminal (offworld), 1 government, 2 military (1 offworld), 
  1 trader (offworld)
Cr 180,000; scout/courier "Blissful Mirage" (extra cargo holds; wear 
  value 1; no payments)
Appearance: Light brown hair, moustache, no beard; black eyes; average
  height; small size 

Joshua has just recently joined his sister, Maria, in this venture on
Adrian.  Joshua (he *hates* his tac-code) will usually be the one to
perform the necessary public relations, going to Aubaine, Aurora, or
wherever else needed.  

*******************************************************************************

CIN/Phoebus, 4/VII/1202:

A cometary body has been found in deep-space at astrographical coordinate
0636/Aubaine, and a fueling station will be established there by Singh,
Singh, and Co., a recently formed corporation registered here in Phoebus.
The comet was discovered by James (Jimmy) Singh, a belter originally from
Aurora.  

The rights to this comet were supposedly leased to the RC Navy at Aurora 
just a few weeks ago for an undislosed sum of money, but apparently there
was a loophole written into the contract by his sister, Lilith (Lily)
Singh.  The contract forbid Mr. Singh from reselling these rights "to any
party not mentioned in this contract."  As Ms. Singh was listed in the
contract as her brother's agent, he was legally able to sell mining rights
to her even after leasing these rights to the RCN.  

The fueling station being built by Singh, Singh, and Co. will supposedly
be open to the general starfaring public and will have refined fuel
available for the standard price.  

There has been no offical comment by the Public Affairs Office of the RCN
on this matter.  An anonymous source is quoted as saying "I'm angrier at 
the [bureaucrat] who signed the contract than I am at [Ms. Singh].
[Laywers] can't help they way they are.  It's genetic or something, like
being a microbe."

*******************************************************************************

CIN/Aurora, 27/VII/1202:

An official spokesman from the Public Affairs Office of the RC Navy issued
a press statement today announcing that unlicensed, unregulated mining by
the general starfaring public will be permitted at the deep-soace
cometary body located at astrographical coordinate 0636/Aubaine.  Thus,
the crew of a ship jumping to this coordinate in deep-space will be able
to refuel their ship at no cost (other than time).  This is obviously in
response to the action initiated by Singh, Singh, and Co. reported by
CIN/Phoebus on 4/VII/1202.  

*******************************************************************************

To help visualize the astrography, I've included this (admittedly lame)
map:

 >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<
<    >--<    >--<    >--<0931>--<1131>--<1331>--<    >--<    >
 >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<1431>--<    >--<
<    >--<    >--<0732>--<0932>--<    >--<    >--<1532>--<1732>
 >--<0432>--<0632>--<    >--<1032>--<    >--<1432>--<    >--<
<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<1333>--<    >--<1733>
 >--<    >--<    >--< ** >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<1633>--<
<0334>--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<1734>
 >--<0434>--<    >--<    >--< ** >--<1234>--< $$ >--<    >--<
<    >--<0535>--<0735>--<    >--<    >--<    >--< $$ >--<1735>
 >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<1035>--<1235>--< $$ >--<    >--<
<0336>--<    >--<    >--<0936>--<    >--<    >--<    >--<1736>
 >--<0436>--< ** >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<1636>--<
<0337>--<    >--<0737>--<    >--< ** >--<    >--<    >--<    >
 >--<0437>--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<1437>--<    >--<
<    >--<    >--<0738>--< ** >--<    >--<1338>--<    >--<
 >--<    >--<0638>--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<
<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<1139>--<1339>--<
 >--<0439>--<    >--<    >--<1039>--<    >--<
<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<
 >--<    >--<0640>--<0840>--<    >--<
     >--<    >--<    >--<    >--<

"**": A publicly known deep-space refueling station.
"$$": A secret d/s ref. station.

0334 Buhle
0336 Trybec
0337 Rohit
0432 Adrian
0434 Fija
0436 Apollo
0437 Vezina
0535 Aurora (Hq RCN)
0632 Eos
0638 Schall
0640 Seliga
0732 Nike Nimbus
0735 Kruyter
0737 Phoebus
0738 Aubaine (Cap. of RC)
0840 Conner
0931 Ra
0932 Enkidu
0936 Spires
1032 Baldur
1035 Zloga
1039 Lucifer
1131 Bestor
1139 Shenandoah
1234 Helios
1235 Oriflamme
1331 Corrig
1333 L'steich
1338 Spencer
1339 Kal
1431 Nex
1432 Junak
1437 Teldora
1532 Sarid (*not* "Sand"; the subsector name is "Oriflamme/ex-*Sarid*")
1540 Coast (not shown)
1633 Nimz
1636 Tuer
1732 So Skire (RC uplift mission; see _World_Tamers'_Guide_)
1733 Keghe (no ocean refueling; gas giant)
1734 Ehart (ocean refueling; gas giant)
1735 Lamnath (ocean refueling; gas giant)
1736 Poyzen (joint Baldur/Oriflamme colony; see _World_Tamers'_Guide_)

*******************************************************************************

Feedback would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Franklin

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1089
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 19 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1090



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Shields?
Re: Shields?
Ortillery
THUDDD voting
Re: Shields?
Re: Shields?
Re: martial arts
Re: Shields?
Starports
Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures
Re: martial arts
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"
Re: Starports
Re: [Traveller Answer] Ship Combat
Re: Ideas for new toys
Systematic psionics (was Re: Shields?)
The Guide to the Galaxy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:49:28 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Shields?

On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Garry Ward wrote:

> May be a matter of semantics. Sandcasters could be considered a form of
> shields in that the sand is manipulated and shaped by the ejecting ship to
> stop inbound energy weapons. It works best on lasers, but the assumption
> (per TNE) of missle warheads acutally being disposable high intensity X-ray
> lasers, makes it effective against missiles as well.

I pictured sandcasters like thse used by attack choppers, a sand looking
substance ejected to fool incoming missiles.

Everything else you said makes sense though - thanks.

I forgot about the black globes (whats a white globe?)

c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN                      http://www.electric-rain.net/


No physician can give health and happiness to the man who enjoys
his affliction.  For such a man health and happiness are always
contradictory.
The Singer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:35:36 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Shields?

 
> > May be a matter of semantics. Sandcasters could be considered a form of
> > shields in that the sand is manipulated and shaped by the ejecting ship to
> 
> I pictured sandcasters like thse used by attack choppers, a sand looking
> substance ejected to fool incoming missiles.

You're thinking of chaff (radar spoofing) or flares (IR spoofing).
 
Sand will, however also work in the shotgun mode in a way.  Remember
that it doesn't matter if the shotgun blast moves, or if the target
moves into a "stationary" cloud of sand.

So plain old missiles that have to contact the target have to move
through the sand cloud.  At the one or two hundred kilometers per
second that the missile is moving, the unmoving sand is far nastier 
than any shotgun blast (which is more like 0.3km/s).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 22:51:42 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Ortillery

Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com> wrote:
> Thank you! Not bad for one big gun.

As I recall, modern heavy artillery manages 2 to 3 rounds per minute per
tube, so that's in the same ballpark as a single tube of artillery.

> But is one meson gun enough ground support for a Merc Cruiser?

How many troops does that particular one carry?  It's a heck of a lot better
than nothing, but ideally you'd want 8 or a dozen of the things to act as a
battery of artillery.

> As an old grunt 18 seconds b/w shots is a very long time.
> In 18 sec the entire battlefield can change.

True, but 18 seconds is a lot better than 30 seconds to a minute for
modern-day artillery to correct fire.  There's no "time-to-target", because
the "rounds" travel at nearly the speed of light.  As soon as the ship has
the fire order in the gunnery computer, shots begin to arrive.

The Merc Cruiser's forward observer will certainly have a surface-to-orbit
commo, so fire orders and corrections will go in as fast as he can talk.

> I seem to remember a SF story about a ship in low orbit dropping some
> type of steel bars over the target. What type of effect would that have?
> And would be the time on target?

Well, let's do some back-of-the-envelope calculations.  Beginning with an
iron rod the size of a crowbar (let's call it 5kg, including a small
laser-spot-seeker in the nose, and some small fins on the back for terminal
guidance).  I seem to remember that the laser-seeker conversion kits for
modern-day bombs are pretty cheap, so let's call the guidance package around
Cr 1000.

Since this will be used in close orbit around a world, we can equip it with
a Contra-Grav unit (4 cubic meters and 2.4Mw, and 13 tons thrust at TL-9),
and a 1 cubic meter storage bank (this will run the CG for 10 minutes).
This is all at TL-9; it gets smaller and cheaper at highter TLs.

A standard starship missile is 7 cubic meters; we'll fill the rest of the
space with penetrators (1 cubic meters and about 7 tons; that's some 1,400
"crowbars") and reserve a cubic meter for packaging, guidance, and other
stuff.  The end result should do about 1G, cost around Cr 18,000 (plus
the cost of the penetrators, which could easily exceed MCr 1, if they cost
Cr 1000 each).

This device can achieve a delta-vee (change in velocity) of about 6,000 m/s
which should be sufficient to de-orbit the crowbars with extreme prejudice,
and the entire thing can be launched from a standard starship missile
launcher.  Assuming that the "crowbars" will hit at about 5,000 m/s, each
one has the energy of 125Mj (about 30kg of high explosive).  And each one is
(at least potentially) homing in on a target designated by your troops.

The only major problem is the time-to-target.  A ship in low orbit isn't
always in the right area to launch one of these; the worst case involves
nearly an entire orbit (about an hour and a half) before the crowbars
arrive; even under the best case, it's about 10 minutes.  And fire
correction takes about the same.  These things are more useful for taking
out rear-area targets that don't move around much.

On the other hand, they can be _very_ useful for that.  If you can observe
the enemy's command posts, supply dumps, and other static targets from
orbit, then a single ship with four missile turrets can have a total of a
dozen of these things (almost 17 thousand crowbars) fall on targets anywhere
on the world within a couple of hours.

You can have larger chunks of metal; if you assume that the main cost of a
"crowbar" is the guidance unit, a device with six 150kg "anvils" would be
much cheaper (around Cr 24,000 all told), and would deliver the rough
equivalent of a 2000-pound armor-piercing bomb (3,750Mj) per anvil.  A volley
of these (a dozen devices, and a total of 72 "anvils") is the rough equivalent
of an airstrike.  Anywhere you want, time-to-target of 2 hours or less.

The ship's meson gun is your artillery; the deadfall ordinace is your air
force.  The only problem now is re-supply, particularly of deadfall
ordinance.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 23:07:13 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: THUDDD voting

     Paul Walker wrote:

>
>Well, I was hoping for a violation of the cardinal rule number one, Don't
>Send Anything in Late, but I didn't see one.  Unfortunately, we only had
>five voters for this THUDDD.
>
>Before I announce the next THUDDD, I want to get some comments on the voting
>system and what how you think it could be bettered.  I already have one
>complaint (well comment really) about the voting system being a little
>complex.  What say you, and how would you fix it?
>
>Well, shortly, I will anounce the Overall winner, and the other winners.


     Well, basically, as you already know (but the list doesn't), the
voting scheme as you proposed it basically involved thought and
deliberation: basically, voters had to go over the entire set of entries
multiple times, which was rather timeconsuming.

     The 1-10 rating system goes a lot faster; voters just bang in their
impressions of each ship and then move onto the next one.  It's easier on
the voters that way, although the guy running the THUDDD has to do more
work.

     Overall, though, I'm really pleased by how the THUDDD concept seems
to be working; we've got a slew of Far Trader variants, and a bunch of Merc
Cruisers with enough variety to really add flavour to a campaign.

     So what's the next ship class, O THUDDDMeister :)?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 22:01:12 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Shields?

Solomani wrote:
> 
> etc even star wars!  Except for the death star in Jedi, which seemed to
> be a special case)
> 

I can't resist: the Millenium Falcon also has shields. They were
mentioned several times in The Empire Strikes Back. The planet
Hoth also has a shield "strong enough to deflect any bombardment".

We now return to our regularly scheduled Traveller talk.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:16:10 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Shields?

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:

Actually, yes your right, they did - an oversight.

> Solomani wrote:
> > 
> > etc even star wars!  Except for the death star in Jedi, which seemed to
> > be a special case)
> > 
> 
> I can't resist: the Millenium Falcon also has shields. They were
> mentioned several times in The Empire Strikes Back. The planet
> Hoth also has a shield "strong enough to deflect any bombardment".
> 
> We now return to our regularly scheduled Traveller talk.
> -- 
> Erwin Fritz
> Unix/NT/LAN Guy
> Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
> http://www.glja.com
> 
> 
> 


c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN                      http://www.electric-rain.net/


If you do not believe in yourself,
do not blame others for lacking
faith in you
Bernard Berensen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 01:24:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: martial arts

     Howdy!

On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mark Urbin wrote:

>    The original point of this thread was the very silly concept of an
> unarmed person attacking a ABD equiped foe.

     Huh?!?

>    While unarmed combat has it's place in Traveller (such as on worlds with 
> very high law levels), attacking folks in Battle Dress, Augmented is not
> one of them.  Even if a bunch of tried to swarm just one Imperial Marine in
> BDA, he would just have to touch off that chest mounted claymore... :-)

     This was a *serious* thread? <G>  Wow.

     MA does have a place in Traveller, on low tech worlds and on high.
Just as in our world today.  However, it was not desigined and did not
evolve to take out armoured men with firearms.... 

     Laterish!

     Ken

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:04:04 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Shields?

>Can anyone tell me why Traveller never had shields? You have screens, but
>not "shields" in the traditional sci-fi sense (like star trek) or is this
>considered a "not serious" sci-fi technology, becaus ive noticed most
>serious sci-fi doesnt have shields (All asimov universes, Babylon5, dune
>etc even star wars!  Except for the death star in Jedi, which seemed to
>be a special case)

Black globe, white globe.
TNE sandcasters (magnetically trapped cloud of laser dispersing crystals).
The reason Traveller never had the standard run of the mill shields is that
nobody has described what they are or what they do ie <"not serious" sci-fi
technology>

Deathstar in Jedi had a shield powered from the Endor moon that Han and
those cute little Ewooks (hate, hate, hate) blew up to enable the good guys
to fly into the reactor and blow it up again.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:23:37 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Starports

rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough) said, about "Every Adventure Begins and
Ends at a Starport":

><SNIP>
>present/absent, bases present/absent) are given the same designation. I
>realize this was used in older material but I had hoped T4 would be able to
>keep the best from previous rules and discard the rest.
>
>Consider a system with a dozen shipbuilding ports, 3 orbital space
>colonies, and space stations able to refuel and build ships in orbit around
>the main world, the asteroid belt, and a gas giant...
><SNIP>

I have a series of rules for random generation of the entire facilities of a
starport, down to the level of what sort of docks are used, descriptions of
starport regulations, etc. It allows you to have more than one port per
system and uses a UWP-style code to record the size, level of traffic,
quality, facilities, etc. of each port. It is hoped that it will form part
of a future IG product (from the CORE group). It is currently undergoing a
period of testing; at the conclusion of this period I shall be looking for a
few playtesters from the TML to give their comments.

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:02:43 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures

>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 12:50:46 -0600
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Subject: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures

>I've never had an entertainer in one of my games, but Suz is proving that
>it's an interesting choice.  As for Nobel careers...well, I'm reminded of
>Lord Byron, Lord Kelvin, Lord Nelson, and the Duke of Wellington, sure they
>are nobels, but their careers weren't *just* being nobels..until somebody
>convinces me different I think nobel PC's also need some other career to
>make them more interesting.

I've always imagined "Nobles" (as in the career) as being akin to the
British Empire UCT (Upper Class Twit). Gentleman (and woman) adventurers who
set off with firm jaws, a classical education, and a belief in manifest
destany and Noblese Oblige to build an empire despite the best attempts of
the British government to avoid it. Clive of India, Cecil Rhodes,
TC Lawerence, Stanley Livingstone et al.

The characteristic of a noble are (IMHO): independent means, a wide based
liberal education, well conected friends, a sense of history and destiny,
and a desire to do something "worthwhile" without exactly what being clearly
defined.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  Be pure, Be strong, Behave
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:12:16 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: martial arts

Kenneth Winland wrote:
>         MA does have a place in Traveller, on low tech worlds and on high.
> Just as in our world today.  However, it was not desigined and did not
> evolve to take out armoured men with firearms....
> 

Not exactly true. In ninjutsu (I have to take this example, because I
know it best), there is a part of the training, called kajutsu, which
deals with firearms, there use, defense against them, as well as various
matters of explosives.
In modern ninjutsu (bujinkan dojos) there are seminars of combat
shooting and similar things.

So if not in other MA, in ninjutsu firearms PLAY an important roll.

CU
Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:22:05 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"

>Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:43:43 -0500
>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>

>Andrew M J Boulton writes:
>>In-Reply-To: <3321EB15.F9E@well.com>
>><<  The U.S. army still gives bayonet training, and the bayonet hasn't had 
>>serious military application since WWI >>
>>Not by US troops, perhaps, but the British (successfully) used them in the 
>>Falklands (and the Gulf?)

>   Definately in the Falklands.  The Gurkas were also present.  The sight
>of them with those large curved knives (Kuri) probably set more than one 17
>year old conscript to quivering at the bottom of their foxhole.

The British have a long tradition of effective use of cold steel, as well
as an equally long one of scaring their opponents by "horror" stories about
"colonial native troops". During the 2nd WW the effectiveness of the 28th
Maori bn was greatly increased by rumours that they were still cannibals.
The one about the Kukri and heads falling off later dates back to the
1st WW (along with the myth that the Kukri can't be reseathed until its
drawn blood - unture BTW). The British have long understood that the concept
that your opponents are trained to and enjoy sticking you with sharp objects
has a profound pyschological effect.

>   It's actually a matter of range.  At close range, cold steel is
>terrifing.  Grenades, shotguns, and smgs are more efficent though.

The really great advantage of cold steel is silence. If you want to take out
a lone sentry, anything else will make too much noise.


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
  Be pure, Be strong, Behave
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:46:21 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> I have a series of rules for random generation of the entire facilities of a
> starport, down to the level of what sort of docks are used, descriptions of
[snip]
> period of testing; at the conclusion of this period I shall be looking for a
> few playtesters from the TML to give their comments.
> 
> Andy :-)

I eagerly await them! I could really use this kind of thing.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:54:01 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answer] Ship Combat

>Joe _Walsh_ wrote:
>> I'm happy to see you continue to give RPSC endorsements. But...
>> Ummm...shouldn't that be "Joe Walsh", or did Joe Heck write one, too? :)
>
>Yes, it should!
>
>Boy is my face red!  I'm EXTREMELY sorry, Joe; I can usually tell you and
>Joe Heck apart on the 'net - there's no excuse for my making that kind of
>error.

grin :)

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:33:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Ideas for new toys

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, JayStr wrote:

> 1) MASERS. If the US Army can build a microwave gun that (theoretically)
> can bake human beings inside buildings and arc-weld tanks (or anything
> metal) together, why can't the Imperium?

Interesting idea, but in the interest of game balance, make it extremely
short range (1-10 meters maybe) and easily shielded against.  Otherwise
there should be a Maser Rifle in the T4 main weapons page.

> 
> 2) MISSILE/MINES. If a surface-to-surface missile misses its target, it
> sticks in the ground and becomes a mine. Saw this in an old Appleseed
> comic; love it; don't have the slightest idea of how to build one...
> 

A bit unrealistic, but a missile (more likely a rocket) which is
specifically designed to deploy mines is a present day reality.  Designing
a missile which becomes a mine has many cons I wont go into, but the one
I'll point out is that the two missilns are not usually compatible (area
denial vs. surgical or area strike).  

> 3) SELF-PROPELLED MINES. Basically a kamikaze robot. Point it in the
> right direction and sweep an area, or set it to police a set piece of
> real estate after a certain amount of time, or lie in wait in ambush.
> When the proscribed target comes by, blooey! Very advanced models could
> seek out individuals.

This robot better have a TL12 or better brain.  The technical problems
are; 1) Identifying friend or foe, 2) anti-spoofing IFF, 3) adapting to
tactical changes intelligently.  Basically you need a pretty smart robot
brain except in specific circumstances (maybe all the creatures on the
planet are targets?).  You will need to overcome or avoid the problem
behind these limitations at TL10, which won't be easy, but could be a fun
adventure to deal with some "armageddon robot" left to kill a whole planet
by a vengeful losing side (Bolo anyone?). 


  > 
> 3) SMART MINES. As per above, but smaller and cheaper. They could
> use lasers as tripwires so long as a solid surface was within a short
> range, much in the same way as laser-guided bombs home in on the cone of
> reflected light from the target. When the tripwire is interrupted, the
> target is interrogated visually; if there's a match, BOOM.

Skip the target recognition.  Too easy to spoof and too easy to identify a
friend as foe.  The tripwire laser can travel a few hundred meters in 4-5
directions and, when tripped, a full power laser with targetting optics is
triggered along the same path.  These should be deployed in overlapping  
fields of fire.  Even with this, I can think of several ways to
short-circuit the mines.  Making them explosive with certain conditions
helps a bit. 

> 
> 4) LAS-DET/PLAS-DET MINES. The Soviet Spetznaz commandoes came up with a
> nasty weapon for attacking hardened targets they couldn't otherwise get
> near -- the MON series of mines. They acted like gigantic Claymores, but
> were for attacking NATO installations, not people. There was the
> MON-100, the MON-200, etc.; the number indicated the range in meters.
> 
> My question is this: Could a very powerful conventional explosive or
> very small nuke be used to direct a laser beam or plasma jet at the sort
> of ultrahard targets you're liable to find in the Traveller universe,
> much in the same way as you'd build these las-det missiles I've heard
> about? Or would I be better of building a time-delay version of the
> laser LAW (see below)?
> 
A HEAP round (High Explosive Armor Piercing) does precisely what you are
describing.  A block of explosive is shaped to form a cone with some
explosion reflecting material behind it and the opening of the cone facing
the target (its more complicated than this, but that's as much as I know
about it).  This has the effect of forming a jet of superheated gas, aka
plasma, directed at the target, which literally vaporizes the surface the
material of vehicle hulls and such.

You can bet that future development of armor piercing rounds will require
the jet to be hotter, last longer, have followup charges of the same
nature (which exists currently I think), use other type of technlogies
(like lasers or direct plasma "beams"), etc. etc.  So your on the right
track.  


> 5) LLAW/PLAW. What bonuses would you give in weight, mass, and cost to a
> Light Anti-tank Weapon that fired an energy beam instead of a rocket --
> essentially a big, cheap, single-use laser cannon or PGMP? Is there a
> canon answer to this one?
> 

No canon answer, but why use  a beam weapon in this manner?  Beam
weapons, unlike rockets, do not use up most of the components of the
weapon system in their firing.  In fact only energy is used up (unless you
somehow "overpower" the components, which would likely result in the
weapon blowing up). 

I think trying to design a beam weapon that is disposable like the LAW
would result in a just-as-effective weapon at a much higher cost.

> 6) REEFER. How do you build a rocket launcher that fires like a machine
> gun? The RFRR (Rapid-Fire Recoilless Rifle) would basically be like a
> big full-auto Gyrojet gun. Great for smothering a specific target area
> with mondo firepower. Also great for zero-G combat, if you build one
> small enough to carry.

There was a rocket gun in (I think) Megatraveller.  It used ammo that had
tiny jets in the nose which propelled it instead of a charge behind.  It
was more effective than a conventional rifle, but not much.  Higher
damage, lower accuraccy, more reliability (no real parts in the rifle; it
was basically just a tube and aiming mechanism), higher signature.

Now the weapon I think you're looking for is the 40mm rapid fire grenade
launcher.  You saw these on some of the Hummers in Desert Storm.  It
looked like a fat stubby barrelled blocky machine gun.  It fires 40mm
grenades in either direct fire or indirect fire mode.  i got to tour the
USS Boulder (an LST) when they were recruiting in Chicago once, the
marines on board were showing off their toys.  My often faulty memory
tells me the guy with the  GL thought he could pretty
much "clense" a "hillside" from a couple miles away.  

> 
> 7) DET-TAPE. Plastique or something similar in an adhesive roll -- like
> duct-tape, only considerably more dangerous. Once you unroll it, the
> adhesive becomes super-sticky on contact with air (imagine the look on
> the bad guy's face as you slap some on his forehead & wave the detonator
> in his face!) The length of the strip determines the explosive power (x
> many joules per. inch, say). Little teeny detonators are built in, along
> with a touch-sensitive screen-strip (like the screen on a portable
> computer, but flexible) running down the middle. 
> 
> Set it to go off after a given amount of time, or command-detonate it
> using the control unit in the center of the roll. If you include
> IR-sensitive lenses, you can set it like a mine; if you embed sharp
> nasty things in the surface, you've just made a crude Claymore mine. A
> million and one uses for the resourceful adventurer! A great gift for
> Dad!
> 

Sounds like fun!


> So, ah... whaddya think? Will the fables G3G I've heard about lemme
> build any of this stuff? and is it T4 compatible?
> 

Someone else will answer your G3G specific questions, but as far as being
compatible, it is.  For may things like explosives you may want to come up
with more "role-playing" type results.  If a bad guy has plastic explosive
go off while stuck to his forehead, he dies, no rolls needed.  Likewise
I've usually decided ahead of time whether a certain door or wall will be
way tougher than the explosive being used against it can penetrate, or
collapse easily under its influence (and perhaps taking the ceiling too).

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:50:06 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Systematic psionics (was Re: Shields?)

At 06:35 PM 3/18/97 -0700, David J. Golden wrote:
>    Seriously, different imaginary universes behave differently. Your
>assumption that Traveller is more of a "hard" science fiction universe than
>Star Trek or Star Wars is probably correct. That's what attracted me to it
>originally, and is why it's the only game I've kept an interest in for a
>decade and a half. Traveller has always _tried_ to have some kind of
>explanation for most of its futuristic things, anti-gravity and jump drives
>aside.

Agreed.  Traveller presents a sharp-edged technological universe in which
any logical positivist would be happy.  Logical positivists are also known
to like the cha-chunk sound made when cocking an SMG. :)

Given this, psionics in Traveller always seemed to me to be a useful
oddity; the exception that proves the rule in a way.  I'm fooling around
now with some plot devices (and physical devices) that could make a form of
psionics much more prevalent in a Traveller campaign.  I want to do this in
a way that is completely explainable (at least to the same level of detail
and veracity as anything else in a futuristic game), and that yet comes
across as somewhat mystical -- though the players could easily react to
this mystical view with derision or reverance (okay, think Han Solo's vs
Obi Wan's attitude in Star Wars).  In other words, I don't intend to make
it clear right off whether these psionics are for real, are _truly_
inexplicable from a technological point of view, or whether they're just
another application of known physical laws.  That may be one thing the
players have to find out on their own, if they think it's relevant.  

So what are your thoughts on this?  Have you fooled around much with
psionics in your games other than as a rare NPC-used device?  Do you think
it's better to leave Traveller "unsullied by such claptrap" (that's a quote
from an old ref of mine :) )?  Or is it possible to include systematic
psionics in a way that adds new dimensions to the game without removing its
technologically inspired clarity?  This last is what I'm going for, but I'd
like to hear others' thoughts.

Thanks.


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:21:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: The Guide to the Galaxy

Jeffrey Cornish said:

>I second that--I purchased "Guide to the Galaxy" a few years ago--worth
>every last centicredit too.  I actually saw the maps in "GtoG" a few
>years earlier in and issue of "The New Scientist."
>
>I'd love to have a 3-D map one of these days that shows the various
>nebulae and dust clouds, along with the stars (It's hard to use some of
>these VRML maps--no real reference to the plane of the galaxy or the
>ecliptic...)

I _third_ that!

"The Guide to the Galaxy" is an excellent book on astronomy. The book
provides a brief history of astronomy followed by several chapters that
deal with each of the Milky Way's stellar arms and what you might find
there.

The maps are fantastic. You'll see a lot of familiar names among the stars
and see that the founding fathers of Traveller at least _attempted_ to pay
some obeisance to astronomical reality (even if they did misplace Alpha
Crucis and Deneb!).

Very inspiring for a Traveller player and not dry in tone as you might
expect from a scientific book.

I'll post the publisher info tomorrow for those of you who may be
interested. If a former English major like myself can get such great
enjoyment from a scientific tome, even the most non-gearhead among us
should be able to enjoy this book!

Best,

Chris

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1090
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 19 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1091



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Spectacular Success and Battle Dress (RAMBLING)
Re: Protectors (was:Battle Dress)
Starport gen system
Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures
Re: Ideas for new toys
Re: Systematic psionics (was Re: Shields?)
Re: THUDDD Votes (March)
Using Kafers in Traveller Adventure (long)
How I'm running the Traveller Adventure Pt I (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:12:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spectacular Success and Battle Dress (RAMBLING)

> FGMP... You're WORRIED about DB?

Of course I'm worried - those things are _loud_!

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:11:46 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Protectors (was:Battle Dress)

Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>>>I love this idea.  It would even be possible to make this "protector
   race" more ubiquitous by turning it into a holy order of knights
   similar to Fred Saberhagen's Templars.  These Templars, or whatever
   you want to call them, have bases everywhere.  Since the Imperium
   doesn't have extradition, this order has taken it on itself to haul
   those guilty of crimes against humanity back to the worlds they
   ravaged to face charges, sort of like a cross between Amnesty
   International and a mobile Nuremburg court.  Their activities will be
   less restricted on low-law-level worlds, the same worlds where
   murderous players are likely to hang out, where they are free to
   apprehend criminals, or kill them trying.  These protector
   orders will be popular among idealistic, violent, and young nobles
   who enjoy nothing more than wasting bad guys; they are a serious
   stick to beat your players with. 8^)

   The Templars will be well organized, with a staff of lawyers to
   handle relations with the local authorities, and are liable to be
   quite popular in some locations.  If you have violent players, you
   may want to join them up with the Templars to keep them out of
   trouble!<<<

Wow.  Great idea! If anyone wants to develop material for this order I
would love to add this to my universe. I have some basic thoughts:

Ships: In addition to their noble yachts I figure that the Templars
would have something like the Merc Crusers, but with fewer troops and
more specialist. Possably something like the ships from TNE that are
doing bootstrap operations. Multipurpose (modular?) ships that conduct
operations from helping with national distaters to crushing pirate bases
to rebuilding after a raid. 

Troops: Nobles with guards, hired mercanaries in the best armor money
can buy (Daddy wants jr. to come home alive). Often the Templars will do
more damage saving a community then the raid, what with all the fusion
gun fire.

Bases: Only on the best, most conformable planets. They want to be able
to R&R in the lap of luxury.Well equiped, and full of PR and lawers to
pull jr. out of the fire. 

Official Imperium view: More of a nuisance, but can do little to stop
them. Will sometimes step in with overwhelming force if they get out of
hand. The locals will love or hate depending past experience.  

Internal Politics: Two or three different factions. The purest who truly
believe and have a religious zeal to how they go about their business.
The militants who are only in for the blood.  And the power hungry, who
only want to control and make money.

Thoughts, ideas?

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:27:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Starport gen system

Andy Lilly is quoted as stating the following information:

*<BEGIN QUOTE MODE>*
I have a series of rules for random generation of the entire facilities of a
starport, down to the level of what sort of docks are used, descriptions of
starport regulations, etc. It allows you to have more than one port per
system and uses a UWP-style code to record the size, level of traffic,
quality, facilities, etc. of each port. It is hoped that it will form part
of a future IG product (from the CORE group). It is currently undergoing a
period of testing; at the conclusion of this period I shall be looking for a
few playtesters from the TML to give their comments.

Andy :-)
*<END QUOTE MODE>*

Looking for playtesters?  Sign me up!

From the Commander at the office
(Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:06:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures

 Andrew writes...

> I've always imagined "Nobles" (as in the career) as being akin to the
> British Empire UCT (Upper Class Twit). Gentleman (and woman) adventurers who
> set off with firm jaws, a classical education, and a belief in manifest
> destany and Noblese Oblige to build an empire despite the best attempts of
> the British government to avoid it. Clive of India, Cecil Rhodes,
> TC Lawerence, Stanley Livingstone et al.

Edmund Blackadder, Bertie Wooster, whatever the name of the Minister in 
Yes Mr. Minister is...the Imperium is doomed, I tell you, doomed! 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:51:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Ideas for new toys

JayStr began this thread and Peter Brenton added,  now its my turn! :)

1) MASERS. If the US Army can build a microwave gun that (theoretically)
> can bake human beings inside buildings and arc-weld tanks (or anything
> metal) together, why can't the Imperium?

Agreed, but what are the inplications of a microwave gun?  Why is a laser 
better of worse for example.  Could it be that technology discovered that 
lasers are more efficient than masers?


<snippage>

> 4) LAS-DET/PLAS-DET MINES. The Soviet Spetznaz commandoes came up with a
> nasty weapon for attacking hardened targets they couldn't otherwise get
> near -- the MON series of mines. They acted like gigantic Claymores, but
> were for attacking NATO installations, not people. There was the
> MON-100, the MON-200, etc.; the number indicated the range in meters.
>
> My question is this: Could a very powerful conventional explosive or
> very small nuke be used to direct a laser beam or plasma jet at the sort
> of ultrahard targets you're liable to find in the Traveller universe,
> much in the same way as you'd build these las-det missiles I've heard
> about? Or would I be better of building a time-delay version of the
> laser LAW (see below)?
>

I remember a while back in TNE & FF&S days we invented the particle 
detonator.  It used an explosive energy cartidge(like the ones used for 
P/FGMP's) to power a grenade which would discarge a Particle Wave Field, 
basicaly a particle beam with a spherical area of efect.  We also invented 
the 'thermal detinator'  this was done by accident when the first 
experiments our scientist did with explosive cartidges when one  went off. 
 the result was a plasma explosion.  So I would have to say yes, you can 
make these things.  Basicaly make a plasma thrower with no exit hole, 
ka-blammo!

> 7) DET-TAPE. Plastique or something similar in an adhesive roll -- like
> duct-tape, only considerably more dangerous. Once you unroll it, the
> adhesive becomes super-sticky on contact with air (imagine the look on
> the bad guy's face as you slap some on his forehead & wave the detonator
> in his face!) The length of the strip determines the explosive power (x
> many joules per. inch, say). Little teeny detonators are built in, along
> with a touch-sensitive screen-strip (like the screen on a portable
> computer, but flexible) running down the middle.
>
> Set it to go off after a given amount of time, or command-detonate it
> using the control unit in the center of the roll. If you include
> IR-sensitive lenses, you can set it like a mine; if you embed sharp
> nasty things in the surface, you've just made a crude Claymore mine. A
> million and one uses for the resourceful adventurer! A great gift for
> Dad!
>
I totaly agree!  I like this idea!
<Role Play mode on>

Have you ever considered the benefits of selling your weapon patents to a 
major corporation like X-TEK Industries, LIC?  We are looking for a few 
craz...er...good men!

<Role Play mode off>
<Shameless Plug mode on>
Seriously, I like seeing people being creative with designing Traveller 
gadgets, gismos, and gear.  You guys feel free to discuss gageteering with 
me though my e-mail addresses(bprankard@theiia.org  <or> 
 cmdrx@magicnet.net) or via IRC!  also check out the gadgets i come up with 
on the Planet X website at http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/trav.htm  goto the 
"Promenade" and peruse our wares.
<Shameless Plug mode off>

Keep up the excellent work guys! :)

From the Commander at the office
(Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:43:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Systematic psionics (was Re: Shields?)

I've always felt that traveller's explanation of Psionics was perfectly
logical: It is an innate ability that exists in rare individuals; under
the right conditions it can be brought out and trained. the Zhodani have
been cognizant of this trait and selecting or it for millenia, so of
course they know a lot more about it than the Impies.

Human history is replete with tales of prophets, wizards and fantastically
lucky gamblers; most tales are untrue or exaggerated, but there's a grain
of truth in most tales.

Given the rarity of the trait, and the difficulty of controlling or
identifying it before it's accepted as real, works against accepting it as
real. It's really hard to develop a truly statitistically significant
sample when a significant numbr of people claim what you're trying to
study doesn't exist, and you can't consistently find proof otherwise.

I think, at least in terms of Traveller history, not much reputable,
supported work will be done on psionics until contact with the Zhodani.
Then there will be a huge covert Imperial 'arms race' to develop it. an
outgrowth of that covert research could easily be the disastrous effects
of the Psionics supressions...they were simply trying to keep large number
of people not under the direct control of the Imperial intelligence
apparatus from learning the techniques. When the Supressions flared from
public disapproval of psionics to the outright pogroms that did occur,
Imperial policy could have easily been 'Cut our losses, and take the
official research even deeper underground...until then, we're conveniently
rid of a possible fifth column for the Zho's' Whether or not that was the
official policy, that was the actual effect.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:58:07 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Votes (March)

At 04:13 PM 3/18/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Here are the results for the Official March THUDDD Competition...
>
>The envelope please...
>
>************************************************************
>Best Overall Design:
>
>   Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class (SSDS)
>
>   Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au


Sir Arameth Gridlore speaks:

"I am most pleased to award this iridium-plated rock, suitable for
acceleration to whatever fraction of C might please you, to Catullus
Aerospace for their excellent work in designing the Greek Fire Mercenary
Cruiser.  I further wish to extend my congradulations to all the competiting
design teams for their hard work and dedication."

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:55:37 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Using Kafers in Traveller Adventure (long)

I like to pull things in from other games to round out my Traveller 
universe.  Although I play in a pretty standard setting (current year 
is 1105), I don't like to see things that I've bought for other games 
go to waste--especially if I don't plan to play that game again.

One of the things that I'm using in my Traveller campaign are the 
Kafers from T2300.  You may have some of the same T2300 supplements 
collecting dust in your game closet.  In this post, I'm going to show 
you how I incorporated this enemy into my current Trav game.  Maybe 
it will give you some ideas for your own game.



My Campaign:  The Grand Adventure.

I'm running a pretty detailed and involved campaign.  For those of 
you who have seen some of my Grand Adventure posts, you'll already 
know a little about this thing.  If you haven't seen them, I know 
that Peter Miller has taken some of my posts from here on the TML and 
put them on his web site.  If you are interested, you can link there 
from the Imperium Games link page.

For those of you who don't know much about my campaign--you don't 
need to know much.  This is a good thing, because explaining all of 
the intricacies involved in this campaign, which has been going on 
for a year, is much like trying to explain all of the details of 
Babylon 5 in just a few sentences.  

Everything you need to know about how I integrated the Kafers into my 
game is posted here.

WARNING:  TRAVELLER ADVENTURE SPOILER INFORMATION BELOW.    

I am currently playing the Traveller Adventure, although I have 
changed it considerably.  Still, if you are playing the TA, you might 
not want to read beyond this point.  There's not a lot here that will 
spoil another GMs game, but just in case, this is your warning.

Here's a quick run down on how I got my players involved.  For a more 
detailed notes on what the characters have been through (and how I've 
run the Traveller Adventure), see the post entitled "How I'm running 
the Traveller Adventure."

The road to the Kafers is a winding one, but stay with me.  You may 
get some good ideas out of this stuff.  What the characters consider 
to be not related often turns out to be related.

This is a political intrigue campaign--filled with instances that 
effect the entire Imperium, although it doesn't seem like it at 
first.  I eventually tie in the Kafer with the missing meson guns 
from the first episode of the Traveller Adventure.

The Traveller Adventure:

From the start, I used the TA as the back bone of my campaign, but I 
added to it liberally.  The March Harrier is owned by a dirty 
noble--an ex-mafia type--who is on the run from another "mafia type 
family" in what is called a noble blood fued.  These things can get 
pretty nasty.

This noble, Baron Vaan Praygor, has taken a pseudonym to hide his 
identity and now goes by the name Luke Drake.  He figures that the 
Harrier is the best place for him to be at the moment--hopping from 
planet to planet and not staying in one place too long--until he can 
come up with an idea to strike back at the other noble family and 
rebuild his own.

He's put together a crew for the Harrier--one that he thinks will be 
a bit different from your average free trader crew.  His idea is to 
try to make some money in freight and speculative trade, but to also 
hire the ship out as a mercenary vessel.  In running a "mafia type" 
family, he's had a lot of experience with this.

Several of the same things happen in my campaign that happen in the 
Traveller Adventure.  The Mammoth crashes to the surface, and it 
is discovered that two Type J meson guns were aboard.  The 
characters, two of them having just musterd out from the Aramis 
Naval base, use their contacts to find out more.  They discover 
that the analysis shows that the meson guns were never aboard the 
ship, and the controversy ensues about how would steal such 
destructive weapons.  Little do my players suspect, at this point, 
they are becoming involved in the events leading up to the Fifth 
Frontier War.

 The crew finds Roet Bannerji's wallet, and they are 
approached by a dude named Eneri Giilaan.  In the module, this is a 
minor npc designed to be a red herring.  In my campaign, he's a major 
player--one of the guys pulling the crew's strings.

The characters become involved in intrigue set against the backdrop 
of the approaching Fifth Frontier War.  Eneri, as far as the 
characters know, is with Naval Intelligence.  He's watching Roet 
Bannerji, for a reason not yet determined, when the characters come 
to his attention when they try to return the wallet.

Eneri is also watching Gvoudzon--the vargr with the mysterious 
brooch, and he knows that the the Tukera covert security force, the 
Vemene, is also watching the vargr.

The characters are desperate to get off planet because Praygor's 
persuers are right on his heels, but they need a navigator first to 
fill out the crew.  They stumble upon Gvoudzon, a navigator of 
course, being beaten to death by some humans in a dark corner of 
startown.  The vargr agrees to help them get off planet if they will 
help him get back his brooch (which is in the museum--sold by the 
pawn shop where Gvoudzon went as he was desperate for cash), and this 
is the second time that the crew comes to Eneri's attention.

Eneri approaches the crew, identifies himself as Naval Intelligence, 
and convinces them to break into the museum and take the brooch.  All 
goes well, that is until they are caught, but Eneri pulls some 
strings with the local authorities and helps them out of the Leedor 
jail and off planet.  The catch is that Eneri cannot get the charges 
dropped (at least, he says he can't), and it looks like the 
characters are on the run from the law.  They blast off, with the 
brooch, just ahead of the police cruiser.

At Natoko, they are still faced with the problem of the law catching 
up, but Eneri is prepared for this.  Natoko is an undeveloped world 
wholly owned by Tukera, and the only thing on the planet is a large 
starport and ship construction/maintenance facility.  Eneri's got a 
deep cover operative there, Jod Sarkin.  Jod approaches the group and 
directs them to the Communications tower on the base.  It is here 
that he has buried the xboat message from Aramis calling for the 
detention of the Harrier and her crew.  Jod has put the message in a 
"red tape" file, but he can't risk his cover to delete it.  If the 
characters want to destroy the message in order to throw of the 
authorities for a while, they are going to have to do it themselves.

This was the adventure on Natoko, and at Patinir, we had a 
non-related adventure (see the short story I wrote on this called 
"Daeus Jacks at OSIRIS Base" on Peter Miller's web site).

They get the lead about howood, and following that, they jump into 
the Pysadi system.  When they land, they are surprised as they are 
taken into custody by a detachment of Imperial Marines.

The marines have been sent to extradite the Harrier's crew back to 
Aramis.  They caught up with them at Patinir, but leading the mission 
is one of the Harrier's crew (Frank) good friends.  Frank Fornne (a 
PC), before he mustered out, was the Sargent Major in charge of 
Support at the Aramis Base.  He served under Captain Chall Sturm, the 
base Marine commander, for 12 years.  Sturm knew Frank too well, and 
if he was involved with running from the law on Aramis, Sturm knew 
that Frank must have a good reason.  Sturm decided, although he got 
flack from the marine squad commander and the system defense boat 
captain (they used a jump shuttle on the SDB), to jump ahead of the 
Harrier and confront them at Pysadi.

But when the Marine detachment got to Pysadi, they were faced with 
the unexpected.  There's a high tech manned survey satellite deep 
outsystem in orbit around one of the Pysadian planets.  A comm-torp 
(a communication torpedo used for emergencies when radio 
communications are out) just came within range of Pysadi.  The 
autodrone (as the station is called) was under attack by some unknown 
alien force.

The story behind the autodrone starts with one of the more prominent 
Mother Church converts (Pysadi is ruled by the Mother Church, and all 
Pysadians worship with the cult-like, druidical religion).  This was 
Professor Vlamin Mir.  He was a renown Imperial planetologist who 
made head lines when he converted to the Pysadian religion, resigned 
from his position, changed his name, and travelled to Pysadi to live. 
 
Mir became involved with the Pysadian government, and based on his 
investigations, he proposed a way to improve the Pysadian economic 
condition.  Using his former clout with the Imperium, he was granted 
a TL 15 survey satellite with all the bells and whistles from the 
Imperial Government.  Then, he set about surveying the Pysadi 
planets, looking for a find that could put Pysadi on the map, provide 
an export, and attract commercial concerns.

So, this autodrone is one of the most important things going--to the 
Pysadi government.  When the distress call comes in, it is paramount 
that help is sent.  Pysadi is a poor, low tech world with virtually 
no army or space fleet.  There is no Imperial base here.  The 
visiting Imperial Marines are forced to defend the Imperial citizens 
and abandon their first mission of capturing the Harrier crew.

But, there are only 6 marines--a squad of 4, the Captain, and a 
medic.  There's the SDB boat crew, which could double this number, 
but they are not combat personnel.

Captian Sturm, after confering with his old friends among the Harrier 
crew, offers them a solution to their problems.  He'll grant them a 
full pardon for their crimes on Aramis if they will bolster the 
marine's numbers and help them investigate the disturbance on the 
autodrone.

They all agree, and this brings us to the crew's first encounter with 
the Kafers...

It takes them 2.7 days at 6 G's aboard the SDB.  The autodrone comes 
into sight, and the sensors pick up hundreds--that's right, 
hundreds--of things swarmed around the autodrone.

Closer inspection reveals that they are not moving.  They are bipedal 
aliens in space suits, and they all seem to be dead.  They're just 
swarmed around the station--floating there.

The station looks like hell.  It's definitely seen some action, but 
still looks intact.  The SDB moves through the cloud of aliens, and 
at this close vantage point, the ship can see that there is nothing 
but slush inside the suits.

Pulling along side the autodrone, the air lock is opened, and the 
crew exits the ship.  Power is minimal on the station, so they hard 
link the power from the SDB to get the outer docking bay door open.  
The place is dark and in zero G.

Inspecting the inside of the docking bay, the Harrier crewmembers 
notice that the Marines' attention is attracted to something they are 
being told on another comm line.  Then the SDB, snuggled up against 
the mouth of the docking bay, begins to move.

The player characters rush to the lip of the bay to try to get an 
idea of what is going on, and in the distance, they see a large 
object moving toward the station.

It becomes huge--a 40,000 ton ship streaming by the autodrone.  The 
SDB is off at full throttle in an attempt at retreat.  Several 
circular doors open from the hull of the large ship, and hundreds of 
shiney, black, oblong objects are ejected out.  The ship never stops 
its motion, and in a minute, it is off after the SDB.

The black objects slow themselves and swarm around the station.  
Then, explosive bolts blow the objects into two curved, long ways 
halves.  Emerging from within are more of the alien type creatures 
like the dead ones surrounding the station--except these are 
definitely alive and carrying weapons.

Captain Sturm turned to the group and said, "Lock and load!  We've 
got company!"



I literally put the PCs up agains 832 Kafers in this scenario, and 
you know what?  They made it!

All but one of the Marines were killed, Captain Sturm included, but 
the players learned quick to capitalize on the advantage they had 
over the Kafer intelligence and in the autodrone's tight enclosure 
and defensive position.

I played the Kafers pretty dumb but ruthless.  They just kept coming. 
 It was like the Aliens movie, but the Kafers were not as smart.

The players barricaded themselves up the elevator shaft on the 
station's third floor.  The Kafers, for all thier numbers, couldn't 
send more than one or two up the shaft at a time.  The players just 
hung over the side and let it rip with their marine issue gauss 
rifles.  They'd kill a couple, and this would pose an even worse 
problem for the Kafers--they had obstacles to overcome with the dead 
bodies in the shaft.

But, the players knew that they couldn't stay up there forever.  The 
lifesupport on their suits would expire and they would eventually run 
out of ammo--not to mention needing food in a day or so.  And, they 
need to effect repairs on the station to get it moving (the autodrone 
is acutally a cross between a ship and a space station) before the 
Kafer battleship came back.

So they used their noggins.  They took the laser torch from the 
station's mechanical tools and cut out pieces from the deck.  With 
these peices, they formed a zero-G tank--and enclosure with a kill 
hole to stick their weapons out.  Since the station was in zero-G, 
the weight of the thing didn't matter, and they could push it down 
the shaft protecting themselves.

This kind of thinking helped them secure the station and get the 
majority of the Kafers locked out in space.  They effected repairs 
on the ship, and while doing this, noticed that the Kafers outside 
were dying--the 15 hr. life support on their suits having expired.

I wrote a behind the scenes story between one of the player 
characters and the surviving marine to answer some of the questions 
my players had about the role the Kafers had in the overall story.

You may want to read this story, if you are interested in what I've 
done with the Kafers.  It will elude to many details concerning this 
alien race and their involvement in the upcoming Fifth Frontier War.

The surviving marine's name was Lance Sargent Tiko Larrel.  The post 
to look for is called "The Real Tiko".

Check it out.  If anything, it's a neat Traveller short story.

Kenneth.

PS For more details on how I've run the Traveller Adventure, see that 
post titled "How I'm running the Traveller Adventure".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:55:33 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: How I'm running the Traveller Adventure Pt I (long)

This is a companion post to two other posts--"Using Kafers in 
Traveller Adventure" and "The Real Tiko" short story.

In this post, I detail the broad strokes of my campaign.  As 
indicated, I'm running the Traveller Adventure, so if you are looking 
for ideas for running this great adventure, I'm sharing my thoughts 
on that here.

WARNING:  TRAVELLER ADVENTURE SPOILERS

I can't talk about my Traveller Adventure campaign without giving 
some of the mysterys away from the TA.  If you are playing this right 
now, THEN DON'T READ THIS.  You GM will thank you.

As I said above, this is the broad overview of how things have gone 
so far in my game.  We've been playing a year, but we are only to 
Pysadi in the module.  If you are familiar with the TA, you'd 
probably think that we don't play that much because Pysadi is not 
that far into the module.  But the truth is that I've added a lot to 
the story.

We had an extensive time on Aramis before we lifted off, and there 
were long adventures on each of the next stops at Natoko, Patinir, 
and Pysadi.

What did I do to change the adventure as written?  Plenty.  Read on.

Check out the Using Kafer post for more info on how I laid out this 
campaign, and see the Tiko short story for more plot twists and 
turns.

Enjoy!

Kenneth.



PRELUDES...

1093
Tureded, home of the great Houses, is racked with conflict.  House
Jade, a long time rival of Tureded's premier House--House Praygor,
merges with House London to form the largest Family the planet has
ever seen.

In an effort to establish their new position of power, the new House
Jade-London begins an all out strike against their closest competitor.
 When the dust clears, House Praygor has lost many of its top
officials--among them Vaan's uncle.  A Blood War, the worst type of
clash between noble Houses, begins.

Baron Marq, Vaan's father and head of House Praygor, sends Vaan away
to serve on one of the Family's smuggling ships in an effort to begin
Vaan's tutelage for the position he must eventually take in the
Family's leadership, but Vaan is sure that the larger reasoning behind
this decision is his protection from the Jade-Londonists and the Blood
War.

In the next 20 months, Vaan learns the ins and outs of running a
starship and gains experience as a starship engineer.  

He also begins to collect things from the many ports he visits during
his travels, and this collection will eventually grow in size to over
42 tons with incalculable value.



1096
Having graduated to learning the ropes of the core Family business
based from the Tureded starport, Vaan sends word that he will not be
returning to space and orders that his collection be shipped to him at
his homeworld.

In acknowledgment of this, the smuggling ship, unable to return itself
due to its schedule, sends the collection back to Tureded as general
cargo on a free trader in sealed, unmarked containers.  

The ship they choose is the March Harrier, and the cargo never
arrives.



1097
All of Vaan's efforts to locate the cargo have been futile, even with
the considerable resources of House Praygor.  The official story is
that his cargo was lost in an attack when the Harrier was hit by
pirates, but Vaan doesn't believe this--after all, it is his line of
work.  He knows that he would have found something in the intervening
eight months if a pirate group had taken it, so his attention has been
concentrated on one man--the Harrier's lone survivor, Shawn Grey.

Discovering that the Harrier has been dry docked in one of Aramis'
long term hangar facilities, Vaan has relegates himself to waiting for
the ship's new owner to return from duty in the Imperial Army four
years down the road.  

Vaan adds up the clues to his missing fortune:  a dry-docked ship, one
survivor, a new owner, and the survivor's sudden, albeit unlikely,
enlistment in the Army at age 33.  All of these clues lead back to one
person--again, Shawn Grey.

Vaan didn't need it any clearer.  The authorities may be fooled, but
Vaan could read a book written this clearly.  He hires an agent on
Aramis to keep an eye on the dry docked ship.  When the owner returns
to collect his prize, Vaan will be informed.



1104
Fast forward seven years.  The Blood War has taken its toll on House
Praygor, and Vaan, now a Baron at the death of his father, is faced
with questions of survival for his House.

The Jade-Londonists have been ruthless.  House Praygor is all but
decimated.  Mass defections from Praygor to Jade-London have occurred,
and those who were too loyal to go were executed.  Baron Vaan knows
that his own death is just a matter of time.  Desperate, he is out of
options.

Then a nightmare from his past surfaces as today's savior--his only
chance.  An agent on Aramis, one he had forgotten about long ago,
sends word that Shawn Grey has returned and is outfitting the March
Harrier for its return to space.

It is the exact bit of luck that Vaan needs.  That night, he leaves
for Aramis.  

And he knows that in spite of the precautions he has taken, the
Jade-Londonists will not be far behind.




1105

EPISODE I:  ARAMIS
Immediately Vaan locates the Harrier and discovers that the vessel is
subsidized by Oberlindes Lines.  With the subsidy agent right here on
Aramis, the task is easy.  To Vaan's surprise, the agent, Ulric
Harrisani, is more than helpful--he becomes Vaan's partner.  

A check with the authorities confirms that they still suspect Grey for
the capital murder of the Harrier's crew eight years ago, but they
have dropped the case due to lack of evidence.  Vaan provides them
with some, and Grey is arrested.

Harrisani helps Vaan obtain licenses under his pseudonym, Luke Drake,
and the two take possession of the Harrier as it's third set of
owners.  Grey had been busy putting together a crew for the ship, and,
since they had no loyalty to Grey whom they had just met, it is an
easy job for Praygor to convince them to stay aboard.  Most of them
are happy that they still had the job they thought they had.  Some of
them had come a long distance to serve aboard the Harrier.

This gave Praygor almost a whole ship compliment.  Frank Fornne, and
ex-marine, would take up station as the ship's gunner.  His friend,
Too Neimerani, stayed on as the ship's doctor.  Then there was Glynn
Connal, officially the ship's steward, he also had connections and
knew his way around a startown district.  Praygor knew he could use
him in more ways than one.

Daeus Jacks, and ex-naval officer, would continue as the ship's pilot.
 These four individuals, plus Ulric acting as the ship's
administrative officer, would give Vaan just about all the crew he
would need to get started.  Although he would of liked to have another
gunner for the ship's second weapon--especially with the threat of a
run in with the Jade-Londonists, all he really needed at this time was
a navigator.  Praygor, himself, would fall back on the training he had
as a kid and be the ship's engineer.

Ulric makes a few calls to the local starport looking for a lead on a
navigator.  Praygor keeps busy overseeing the refitting of the
ship--being in dry dock for eight years can increase the chance of
unexpected problems.  You didn't want unexpected problems like that
when you were in space.

With the men that Ulric had dug up, Praygor scheduled interviews for
the next day.  Today being the New Year, most of the applicants would
be hung over for their bright and early interview the next morning. 
He needed men he could count on, and this seemed the first step in the
weeding process.

6:00 AM, local time, the next morning, Praygor and crew wait at the
Happy Spacer at the edge of startown for the interviewees Ulric had
set up.  Three applicants are no-shows, and Praygor wonders if the
choice of setting makes the applicants think the job is not worth
while.  But, that can't be.  Plenty of free-traders like himself do
business in a bar.  Besides, this was the only place Praygor could
find in which to conduct his business.  Most other establishments will
not open until 8:00 AM.  The Happy Spacer is open because it never
closed.

Looking up to greet the man moving towards him, Vaan thinks that one
has finally shown up but quickly realizes that it is Shawn Grey.

Praygor thinks he is dead, unable to react in time.  Shawn Grey has
come to exact his revenge on Vaan for stealing his ship.  But just as
soon as that thought races through his mind, Vaan is surprised again
as men in cloaks step up, in unison, from the varied tables in the
bar, catch Grey in some sort of lasso, and begin to stab him to death.

Hmm.  Praygor and the authorities are not the only enemies that his
man has.

The ship is ready in a week or so, but that week turns out to be much
more than business as usual--strange days, indeed.  (This is about
where we started the game.  Since we've played this, I'll just refresh
your memory instead of writing the whole thing down in prose.)

A run down of events...

*    Grey's attackers, the Kai-lek as they are called, turn their
attention towards Praygor and the crew.  When it is understood that
Grey had stolen a religious artifact from then, a golden urn, Vaan
arranges for its return to handle the situation.

*    Too finds a card for Urkinu Gamenga in Shawn's pocket while he is
treating him.  It is guessed that this is Shawn's fence as he has an
antiques shop in town and is known as a rare item broker.

*    A ship bearing two meson guns plows into the Aramis surface after
its fall from orbit.  A massive investigation follows coordinating the
efforts of the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Marines, the Leedor
Starport Authority, Akerut Lines (owner of the ship), Tukera Lines
(owner of Akerut), and the Aramis government.

*    Jelika Chan, chief engineer of the Mammoth (the ship that went
down), is under investigation for incompetence.  Currently, she is
being treated for wounds sustained in the crash at the Leedor
Hospital--the same place Shawn Grey was taken after his attack.

*    From the city news monitors, it is clear that the relations between
the Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate are deteriorating.  This is big
news in the Spinward Marches because the last four Frontier Wars,
conflicts between the two governments, have been fought in this
sector.

*    Glynn finds a wallet in the Leedor startown district.  Upon
returning the wallet to the captain of a ship in port at the starport,
the captain invites Glynn to dine with him at the TAS.  But, as Glynn
arrives, he finds out that this captain, Roet Bannerji, left port
within a few hours of talking to him.

*    Outside the Happy Spacer, the crew happens upon a beaten vargr. 
Nearly beaten to 
 death, Too provides medical care.  As it turns out, this vargr is
 also a navigator.  Increasingly wary of the threat the Jade-Londonist
 pose, Praygor decides to hire him short term just to get them off
 planet.

 But this vargr comes with a price.  He is being followed.  He has
 noticed men watching both his workplace and apartment.  He is sure
 that they are after the brooch, of that he is sure because they just
 beat him for it.

 Gvoudzon, the vargr, will gladly join the crew and leave planet.  It
 is in his best interest too, but he first needs to retrieve the
 brooch from the museum.  The guy at the pawn shop told him that's who
 he sold it to.  

 If Praygor will agree to help him get his brooch back, Gvoudzon will
 agree to join the ship and help them get off planet.

 Faced with little and no choice, if he wants to leave Aramis ahead of
 the Jade-Londonists, Praygor agrees.

*    Vaan uses Glynn's contacts to have Shawn Grey killed.  A call to the
hospital confirms that Shawn "is no longer a patient of the hospital."

*    Frank is approached by Eneri Giilaan, a man revealing himself to be
with Naval Intelligence.  
 He asks questions concerning Roet Bannerji and Gvoudzon's brooch, and
 when Frank tells him of the planned break-in at the Leedor museum, he
 approves and provides support.

*    Glynn contacts Rutger Bloch, an arms dealer he has done business
with before here on Aramis.  Rutger sends an agent of his, Majhara
Kristen, to see the group's needs.  

 Frank later finds out that Eneri Giilaan used Rutger for the
 equipment Eneri offered for 
assistance in the break in.  

*    The crew attempts the break in, but Frank and Ulric are caught. 
Eneri is able to have the 
 charges against Frank dropped but does not have the pull to free
 Ulric as well.  He pulls a favor from the Leedor Police Department,
 but it looks like Ulric has run.  

*    As Eneri delivers Ulric to the starport hotel, Daeus tries for
clearance to lift off.  But the 
 answer comes back negative due to the incidents at the museum and
 police station.  It is a race to lift off before the authorities
 arrive.

 Eneri helps out again with a bribe to the starport controller.  The
 Harrier lifts off and enters jump before the authorities can catch
 up. 



EPISODE II:  NATOKO 
*    The jump into Natoko is uneventful, if you can call Glynn
threatening to destroy the ship by detaching the launch and sending it
through the field bubble while in jump uneventful.  

 Yes, command is turning out to be much more than Praygor had
 anticipated.  It is one thing 
to run an organization like he had done back on Tureded, and it is
totally another to deal with the intimate details involved with
running a starship.

 But, they got off Aramis with their skins one step ahead of the law
 so things are not that bad 
after all.

*    Planetside, in the Tukera facility, an effort is made to contact
Gyles Honsen.  Ulric pulled the name out of the ship's library
computer.  Honsen was the broker that used to service the ship way
back when it was owned by the vargr.  Praygor hoped that Honsen would
be easy to deal with based on that prior relationship.

*    Gyles Honsen, on the other hand, felt no ties to the current Harrier
crew at all.  In fact, he was a long time associate of the ship's
previous owners, though he wouldn't go so far as to call them friends,
but that didn't stop him from being angry about their murders.

 As far as Gyles is concerned, he could care less if the new owners
 ever got a cargo, and 
when Praygor and company came calling, he tells them that.

*    Back to square one, the crews begins a search for another broker to
help them.  Normally, Ulric, whose suite a skilled broker, would take
care of the ship's needs.  But because of the trouble that was started
back on Aramis, Praygor decides to keep a low profile.  A casual ship
listing on the starport comm-net just wouldn't do.  The captain wanted
to put some distance between himself and the authorities--and the Jade
Londonists.  The goal here was to leave as little a trail as possible.
 When the Aramis police or the Jade Londonists tracked them here,
Praygor wasn't going to make it easy for them to pick up the trail
again.

*    Glynn finds another broker, or rather the broker found him, in one
of the starport bars.  Ulrich Baseru is a rival of Honsen's, and he
keeps tabs on his business.  Ulrich is a relative newcomer to Natoko,
trying to establish himself, and any of the fish that Honsen throws
back into the sea, Baseru catches.  The Harrier crew is one of these
catches.

 And Ulrich had done his homework.  He knew the Harrier was a jump-1
 vessel, stranding it in 
the Aramis Trace.  Any free trader captain in his right mind would
give his eye-teeth to obtain  a way out of the Trace and into new
markets.  Even if the ship was held to the Trace due to it's subsidy
agreement, which Ulrich knew the Harrier was (a little piece of
information that he had found out from the investigation of his
rival), there are always clauses in those agreements allowing the ship
to leave its subsidy route for some specified length of time.  

 Baseru had an answer to this problem--one that is less expensive than
 purchasing a new set 
of drop tanks or upgrading the jump drive.

 When Ulrich first bought his brokership, he inherited some equipment
 from the previous 
owner.  This was odds and ends mostly, but one piece of this equipment
suited the needs of the Harrier's crew perfectly--used demountable
drop tanks.  Since they hadn't cost Ulrich anything, all he needed to
cover was the storage fees he had incurred over the last year.

 The broker figured that this might be enough incentive to persuade
 the ship to take a cargo 
out of the Trace and into the Scatters to Patinir.  Normally, this
wouldn't have been a big deal, but with Natoko's primary industry
being starship repair, the planet attracted a lot of large starships. 
Very few free traders called here, and the larger ships could rarely
be persuaded to leave the primary trade routes.  It just wasn't
profitable to do so.

 The Harrier was exactly what he needed to get a consignment of cargo
 to his partner in the 
Patinir Belt.  It was a perfect opportunity that fell into his lap,
and he wanted to make the pot sweet enough so that the Harrier's
captain would take the deal.

 Baseru couldn't have known that the deal was exactly what Praygor
 needed.

*    Praygor OK's the deal, and the crew sets to work installing the
tanks.  The starport has a week long back log before they can get
started, and he is confident that he, along with the others, can
install the tanks themselves.

 The deal involves taking some mining supplies to Baseru's contact in
 the Patinir Belt.  No 
problem there--straight freight run.  Baseru also introduces Praygor
to a client of his looking for a ship.  Her name is Andrea Rygoff,
working for OSIRIS Mining Corporation.  She's chaperoning a cold sleep
module with the family members of OSIRIS's deep belt facility at
Patinir.

 Praygor is a little skeptical at first, but he agrees to take the
 module.  They might as well 
make a little money on the trip.

*    As the installation of the tanks proceeds, a Tukera communications
officer contacts the ship.  He identifies himself as Jod Sarkin, an
agent of Eneri Giilaan.  He says that the message from the authorities
on Aramis ordering Tukera Security to detain the ship has already
arrived.  Evidently, the Aramis people knew where the ship was headed,
but that was not hard to find out.  The Harrier had been posted to
this destination with the freight they picked up on Aramis.  Praygor
was actually surprised that they weren't already here on Natoko
waiting for them.  

 Jod says that a message arrived from Eneri by Xboat just before the
 Harrier arrived.  Gillaan 
had ordered Jod to help the ship and crew to get off planet before
they were detained.  Installing these jump tanks complicated matters. 
Sarkin had been able to suppress the message in the red tape of the
communication system in the base operations center, but it was a
priority message.  At any time, it could be discovered.

 Jod's original plan was to suppress the message long enough for the
 ship to lift off, but a 
week was just too long.  He could suppress it for only so long before
he jeopardized his cover.  Knowing this, he dumped the message into
what he called no man's land--a special glitch he had set up in the
base comm computer.

 It made sense for the Harrier to obtain the tanks.  If they could
 conceal their next destination, 
it would buy them some time in the run from the authorities.  The
Aramis officials would not think to look outside the Aramis Trace at
first.  They'd go to Reacher, the next planet within the Harrier's
range.  The tanks wouldn't buy them much time, but they would buy them
some.

 If time to install the tanks was to be taken, then something would
 have to be done about the 
message.  Jod would help them, but he had to be careful not to blow
his cover.  He'd give them the equipment they needed to find and
destroy the message, but Praygor and his crew would be on their own. 
If they got caught, Jod couldn't help them.

*    What Sarkin had said made sense to the Captain.  Praygor assembled a
team, put Frank in charge, and sent them to delete the message.  Jod
provided high tech, top secret, Imperial  computer equipment to get
the job done.  All they had to do was infiltrate the Tukera Ops
Center, find a link to the comm computer, and let the machine do its
thing.

 Easier said than done.

*    The job went off with out a hitch.  Well, almost without a hitch.  A
few guard were killed, but so what, they were Tukera.  Frank froze up
on killing some innocents, but Jod stepped in at the last moment and
finished the job like the professional he was.

 It was much cleaner than the Aramis museum thing--mainly because they
 got away with it.

*    With Baseru's cargo loaded, the tanks installed, and Rygoff and her
cold berth unit aboard, the Harrier received clearance and lifted off
for Patinir.

 Just as they approached jump point, a message came in from the
 planet.  Frank asks 
Praygor to turn the ship around.

 Why?  Frank's friend, Gyr Lurkhurdaadaagige, arrived from Aramis and
 just missed the 
Harrier's lift off by a few hours.  

 Gyr had been in the Corps with Frank, and was in charge of the recon
 party that first 
investigated the crash of the Mammoth.  Just in the last two weeks,
Gyr had been mustered out of the service four months early.

 There was something strange about that.  Nobody got out of the
 Imperial Marine Corps early.  
Gyr knew that there was something strange going on too, and since he
has spoken to his best friend about it before Frank left with the
Harrier back on Aramis, he came looking for Frank to sort things out. 
Frank had told Gyr about Eneri Giilaan, and, well, here he was.

 Besides, Sandy was a good turret gunner.  From what they had been
 through so far, Praygor 
knew that a second gunner would be needed.  He ordered the launch back
to the planet to pick up the ex-Marine.

 Praygor thought his story would be interesting.



 EPISODE III:  PATINIR 
*    Two weeks later, the ship calls at OSIRIS base to drop off Rygoff
and her very cold passengers.  Again, there was no word from the
Aramis authorities, but during the jump, Rygoff gave Praygor a scare. 
She said that the cold passengers were put into their units by London
Mining.  Vaan knew that London Mining was one of the corporations
owned by the Jade-London Family.

 Was it coincidence?  Or was is something else?

*    It wasn't long before Praygor knew the answer.  Automatic weapon
fire ripped from the cargo hold were Too was helping the station
doctor bring the passengers out of cold sleep.

 Within minutes, the androids had swept over the base.  Half his crew
 on the other side of the 
base, there wasn't much Vaan could do.

*    Forty five minutes later, the Harrier was lifting off from the base
as it exploded.  Daeus had made it in from the other side of the base
to pilot the ship, but he didn't know the fate of the others.  Ulric,
Glynn, and Sandy were still missing.

 As the reactors in the base blew, Gvoudzon established contact with
 the OSIRIS escape 
pod.  All three crew members were alive along with one base survivor,
Shuul Vicker.

*    Praygor contacts the local OSIRIS manager, Katherine Martin, and
tows the escape pod with them to one of Patinir's two belt colonies,
Joyston Colony.

 Although the relationship between Katherine and the Captain is
 strained, she offers to repair 
the damage done to the Harrier and reward the ship's crew for saving
two of the OSIRIS workers.  She tells them of the rivalry between her
company and London Mining and how this rivalry has escalated lately
due to the government price ceiling placed on Lanthanum.

*    This subject is heard again when the Harrier drops off it's cargo to
Ghan Siverns, Ulrich Baseru's counterpart here in the Patinir Belt. 
Ghan tells them that, due to the escalated tensions with the Zhodani,
the Navy lobbied for and was granted Imperial price ceilings placed on
Lanthanum and a few other precious metals.  

 Praygor already knew Lanthanum's worth.  It was one of the few metals
 used to construct the 
starship jump grids and the inner coils of jump drives.  It made
sense, that if the Navy was to build more ships in an arms race with
the Zhodani, the price of this metal was controlled by the government.
 Cheaper material meant more ships.

 But this didn't sit well with mining colonies like the ones in the
 Patinir Belt.  The price ceiling 
meant that the price was set artificially low.  With Lanthanum being
the primary export from the Patinir system, this had done a number on
the local economics.

 This would be find, Ghan told them, if everybody played by the same
 rules, but this was not 
the case.  Being close to the border with the Vargr Extents, the vargr
had increased merchant traffic lately into the subsector after the
recent diplomatic overtures made by the Marquis of Aramis.

 The Marquis had established several vargr trading stations on planets
 throughout the 
subsector designed to promote trade with the Imperium's hairy brothers
coreward.  All in all, this was working in most areas of the
subsector, but it actually hurt trade in the Patinir system.  

 The problem had to do, again, with Lanthanum.  The Lanthanum mined
 here at Patinir had a 
price ceiling--not encouraging to trade.  Processing has slowed and
prospecting has all but stopped.

 The Vargr Extents, on the other hand, has no such provision, and due
 to the recent trade 
agreements made with certain worlds within the Vargr territories,
Imperial law does not regulate imported Lanthanum.  

 Just over the border lays Scangen, home to one of the biggest
 Lanthanum mines ever 
created.  Vargr traders venture into the Imperium with loads of
Lanthanum, and due to the decreased production of Imperial Lanthanum,
receive higher prices for their imported ore.

 The Navy's plan has backfired in this section of space due to the law
 and Vargr imports.  The 
local bases and Naval ship construction facilities can't get enough
Lanthanum for ship production, and the Navy is paying the higher price
anyway.

 This has gone on for two years now, but Ghan informs the crew that
 the local mining 
companies have banded together to lobby to get the price ceiling
removed.  They haven't been successful because the law is
Imperium-wide, and the vargr trade issue is not an issue in other
parts of the Imperium.

 The Imperium is a very large place, and galactic politics can be
 brutal.  A direct result of that 
brutality is the recent aggressiveness between mining companies.  What
the Harrier's crew stumbled upon at the OSIRIS base was an extreme
case of this increased aggressiveness.

*    Ghan promised to look for additional cargoes and passengers, and
Ulric told him the direction that they wanted to go--away from the
Aramis Trace, deeper into the Scatters.

 In the mean time, Ghan had needed supplies shipped out to a few
 supply stations in the belt.  
Normally, Ghan had a shuttle delivering these supplies, but it had not
returned from its last trip yet and was three days behind schedule. 
Since the trip took about a week to complete, Ghan wanted to know if
the Harrier was available to take these supplies in-system for him. 
Siverns would pay them what he pays the shuttle pilots, and in return
for them helping him in this jam, he would wave his fee for any
cargoes or passengers he might locate for them.

 It seemed a good deal, and the Harrier was off on its run.

*    The three stops done, the ship came across a distress signal, and
upon investigation, the missing shuttle.  Daeus went across to
investigate and found the pilot barely alive.  He was dying from
radiation poisoning, and the ship's sensors reported that the shuttle
had been hit by tight zone nuclear missile.

 Later aboard the Harrier, Too tried to save the pilot, but it was too
 late.  The pilot had been 
exposed for too long.

 He did manage to say one interesting word, though--Wolblutn.  The
 Wolblutn was Captain 
Bannerji's ship--the one that had lifted off just hours after Glynn
had returned Bannerji's wallet back on Aramis, the same Wolblutn that
Eneri Giilaan was interested in.


This post is continued in part II.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1091
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, March 19 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1092



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

How I'm running the Traveller Adventure Pt II. (long)
Templars (was Re: Protectors (was:Battle Dress))
The Real Tiko Pt I (short story--long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:55:35 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: How I'm running the Traveller Adventure Pt II. (long)

This is part two of the previous post.

*    Calling Ghan Siverns on the tight beam, Siverns instructed them to
take the pilot's body to Palantir, a planet just outsystem from the
belt.  There, he had also located passengers and cargo for the
Harrier's next jump.

 At Palantir, Dev Landrel, a weird scientific type was picked up,
 along with the president of a 
local entertainment company, his wife, two films they had just
completed, the films' director, and a vargr investor.

 All were headed for Aramanx, while the freight was to be shipped to
 Pysadi.  Ghan had 
informed them of a speculative tip about the price of howood on
Aramanx, and Pysadi was one of the few planets in the subsector where
the wood could be found.

 Ghan turned out to know his stuff.  He'd let them in on the howood,
 gave them work, found a 
cargo headed for the direction they wanted to go, and informed them
about the Lanthanum price ceiling in case they thought of speculating
on the ore.  Unless they got it from the Vargr Extents,  that was not
a good idea.

*    With the stop in the Patinir Belt, the ship is able, for the first
time, to take on some semblance of a regular free trading vessel. 
Jumping out farther into the Scatters, to Pysadi, Praygor is confident
that he is putting some distance between the ship, the
Jade-Londonists, and the Aramis authorities.  This will make the
second jump the Harrier has made taking precautions to minimize the
tracks she leaves.  Ghan Siverns, without knowing it, is instrumental
in keeping the ship off the regular merchant comm-banks.

 Normalcy entering their lives for the first time aboard this ship,
 Gvoudzon begins a routine of 
downloading files from the central news agency into the Harrier's
Library banks.

*    Since the Harrier's subsidy is granted through Oberlindes Lines,
Praygor makes note of the company's name popping up in recent news. 
Its large warship, the Emissary, is attacked by vargr corsairs during
operations in the Vargr Extents.  What's interesting is that the ship
was purchased surplus from the Imperial Navy with its weapon systems
intact!  

 Although Oberlindes has boasted that the weapons have never been
 fired--that just the 
threat of such a warship is deterrent enough to corsair bands who look
to less defended prizes, the ship is equipped with a spinal mount
weapon.

 With the recent disappearance of the two meson guns from Aramis,
 Praygor knows that he 
can't have been the only one to make a connection.

*    One of the big stories is about Akidda Laagiir, a senior editor for
the Mora World Review, who has won the prestigious Traveller's Digest
Touring Award, akin to Terra's Nobel Prize for news reporting. 
Laagiir won the prize on the merits of his recent series of
investigative reports into the tensions between the Zhodani Consulate
and the Imperium.  Some have hailed him a doomsayer because of his
negative views of the situation and prediction of another Frontier
War.

*    There are two patients missing from the Leedor Hospital on Aramis. 
One has made big news, as it was Jelika Chan, the engineer charged
with incompetence in the crash of the Mammoth.

 The second is a side note in the story, but of more importance to
 Praygor.  Shawn Grey is 
missing from his hospital bed as well.  Although this could be a
natural result of the hit Praygor placed on Grey before the Harrier
left Aramis, Vaan noticed that the dates didn't match up.







EPISODE IV:  PYSADI
*    Pysadi, what a rock, Praygor thought--tainted atmosphere, technology
so low that they're still pulling carts around with oxygen, and a
tyrannical government run by the Church.  It would take a religious
fanatic to want to live here.

 As they taxied into the decrepit starport, the most modern structure
 on the planet, Daeus 
look over his shoulder as Praygor was peering out the bow ports.

 The Captain was pointing at three Pysadians, crawling around the port
 in their filter masks 
and cold weather clothing.  "I'm glad I'm not you.  I'm glad I'm not
you, and I'm glad I'm not you."

*    While the cargo was being unloaded, both Frank and Gvoudzon managed
to get themselves into trouble.

 Gvoudzon matched chests with the crew of a vargr trading ship in
 port.  To Praygor's 
surprise, Gvoudzon managed to come out on top, and because he won, the
other vargr's respected him.  The Captain never would understand vargr
psychology.

 Frank, on the other hand, decided to pick a fight with the entire
 crew of the Tukera vessel in 
port.  This thing almost turned into the biggest incident Pysadi had
ever seen.  You should have seen their faces.

*    Captain Chall Sturm, the Marine base commander on Aramis, came out
with his marine detachment to detain the Harrier's crew members. 
Praygor wasn't as far ahead of the authorities as he thought.

 Sturm had picked up the ship a couple of weeks ago in the Patinir
 system.  Since Sturm had 
worked with both Frank and Sandy for the better part of 12 years, he
had a good idea that they wouldn't just go back into the Aramis Trace
when they left Natoko.  He knew they'd find a way to loose themselves
out into the Scatters.  

 Besides, Sturm had a tip.  Jod Sarkin informed Eneri Giilaan which
 way the Harrier had 
gone.  This was communicated to the Marine detachment assigned to
Sturm, who then, without telling Sturm where the information came
from, pushed for the pursuit in the direction of Patinir.

 Sure enough, when they reached Patinir, it was not hard to pick up
 the trail of the Harrier.  
They were all over the local news due to the incident at OSIRIS base.

 Chall could have picked them up there in the belt, but he decided to
 wait.  He knew Frank 
and Sandy well--even called them friends.  They wouldn't be mixed up
in some petty museum break in if it wasn't important to do so.

*    But, as Chall and company set up to trap the Harrier, they got a
surprise.  A distress call came in from the orbital research facility
outsystem from Pysadi.  Since this was the hope of Pysadi's future,
and the system had no real defenses of its own, it was up to Chall to
take his Marines out to the location and save the day.

*    Having interviewed Frank, Sandy, and the rest of the Harrier crew,
Sturm pieced together what was happening.  Talking with Frank and
Sandy alone, the emergency situation with the research lab posed a
unique opportunity to get them out of this mess.  If the crew would
agree to help Sturm and his four man marine squad investigate the
problem on the lab, Sturm would exercise his Imperial command
authority and give them an official pardon for the marginal crimes
committed on Aramis.

 The distress message described attacking alien lifeforms.  Sturm had
 himself, his doctor, the 
four man marine squad, and the five man crew of the gunboat.  The
message reported thousands of aliens.

 Three members of the Harrier crew were recent retirees from the
 military base at Aramis, 
and Sturm had worked closely with two of them.  It only made sense to
supplement their numbers with any who were willing to participate from
the Harrier.

*    To a man, Praygor and the rest of his crew agreed to help Sturm. 
The autolab was Pysadi's hope of the future.  A TL 15 piece of
equipment, the drone was constructed to survey the planets in the
Pysadian system, searching for minerals to exploit.  

*    Pysadi needed an export to encourage trade into the system.  A
recent convert to the Pysadian religion, Professor Vlamin Mir had been
a planetologist of some renown in the Imperium.  In fact, he had been
knighted for his work.

*    It was a shock to the scientific community when Mir announced his
conversion, changed his name, and moved to Pysadi.  A year and a half
ago, he petitioned the Imperial government, on behalf of Pysadi, for
the autodrone.  He had already made some observations from his lab on
Pysadi, and if his assumptions were correct, at least one of the
system's bodies contained Lanthanum.

 Mir wanted to boost Pysadi's economy by capitalizing on this
 discovery.  The Imperium 
wanted the Lanthanum for the Navy.  Both agreed, and the autodrone was
sent.

*    From the news files obtained at Pysadi, Praygor noticed that the
Count he owed fealty to by right of his title of Baron, Count Knowln
of Celepina in the Rhylanor subsector, had a recent assassination
attempt made on his life.

*    There was also a story about a kidnapped little girl, from Aramis,
found on Zila.  It was your regular news story except for one of the
names that Praygor recognized.

*    Aramanx, the ship's ultimate destination for both passengers and
howood cargo, also popped up.  Aramanx has been called the "powder keg
of the Towers Cluster", and this report of more hostilities between
the nations of Aramanx told Praygor that the politics were not getting
any calmer on that planet.

*    On the other side of the sector, there was a report of Imperial
Marines skirmishing with the TFL, a terrorist organization based on
Garda-Villis.

*    Breathtaking news came in the form of the technological advancement
General Shipyards has made with L-Hyd drop tanks for use with high
capacity commercial shipping.  This advancement promises to increase
the range of large freighters.  Tukera signed a deal with General to
upgrade its fleet of large freighters, while Oberlindes Lines,
comprised mostly of smaller vessels, had their stock drop 27 points in
one day on the heels of this announcement.

 The Imperial Scout Service issued a statement complimenting General
 for its innovation and 
signed a deal with them for the manufacture of L-Hyd drop tanks for
the Xboat system.  The IISS claims that this innovation will increase
the average jump time to Jump-5.5 across the Imperium.  This would do
wonders for communication, both official, commercial, and private.  A
program is to be implemented that promises to have the new jump
network operational in this sector of space within the next 10 years.

*    And, with the recent report of the vargr attack against the
Oberlindes ship, Emissary, Praygor spots another entry detailing
increased corsair activity.  This time, the attack point lies within
Imperial space, not too far from Pysadi, at Focaline.



And this brings us to the recent short story I wrote--The Real Tiko.  
That will clear up some of the mysteries surrounding the aliens and 
the autodrone.

Also check out the Using Kafers post-- this has some info in it about 
how I integrated the Kafers in the overall story.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:42:14 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Templars (was Re: Protectors (was:Battle Dress))

Yeah, this is a _very_ cool idea.  Here are a few random thoughts:

- - The Templars should operate sort of like a TL15 Lone Ranger, but not
_entirely_ lily-white either.  Finding them should not be easy, as you'd
have to go through any number of false corporate fronts, administrative
people, etc., just to get an audience with someone who might be able to
discreetly pass on your information.  Oh, and they make no guarantees, but
get their expensive payment up-front, just for considering your situation.
OTOH, gaining the notice of the Templars should be very easy, if you do the
right (wrong :) ) things.  The PCs should live in dread of seeing a Templar
cruiser appear on their screens unless they've been very, very good.

- - Officially, the Imperial government puts the Templars down as a rumor
based on overactive imaginations.  Very quietly they will admit that they
exist, but are no more than a minor nuisance.  _Very_ unofficially, the
highest levels of the Imperial government have been known to work closely
with the Templar leadership on especially thorny problems where the
Imperial Sun might not be a welcome sight.  The Templars are not precisely
mercenaries, but if Imperial goals and their own intersect, why should they
not act?  And since so many (all?) of the Templars are of noble birth,
their aims and the Imperial Aristocracy's are not often far apart.  Oh, and
Templars love nothing quite so much as teaching some young braggart Noble a
clear lesson about the way the Universe _really_ works.  

- - I'd say that rather than giving the Templars cushy bases on only the best
planets (though I'd guess they have a couple of those :) ), that their main
bases should be on very-low albedo hardened asteroids, often in otherwise
deserted systems -- maybe one or two are on moons orbiting worlds with TL0
natives on them, thus giving rise to the Protector semi-myth?

>Internal Politics: Two or three different factions. The purest who truly
>believe and have a religious zeal to how they go about their business.
>The militants who are only in for the blood.  And the power hungry, who
>only want to control and make money.

And of course there are rumors, difficult to pin down even in the halls of
the Templar Citadels, that some among them are deeply placed Zhodani spies,
while others are said to have dark designs on the Iridium Throne itself...

Oooh, I like this. :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:55:28 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: The Real Tiko Pt I (short story--long)

This is a Traveller short story--an off camera scene I wrote to 
explain some campaign details to my players.  

This post is also a companion to the one I wrote about using Kafers, 
a T2300 alien, in a T4 campaign.  You may want to refer to that post 
for some details--"Using Kafers in Traveller Adventure".

There's one other post you may be interested in, if you are 
interested in this one.  The title is self explanaitory--"How I'm 
running the Traveller Adventure".

With all three of these posts, I'm just shareing ideas with you.  
Feel free to steal anything you like.  That's what it is there for.

WARNING:  BAD LANGUAGE IN THIS SHORT STORY        

I play with adults.  In the game, we talk like adults.  Bad language 
sometimes  enhances our game like in a movie.  If you are offended by 
this, then you probably don't want to read it.

If you liked the Using Kafers post, this will add to that and throw 
in some twists along the way.  The flavor of my game is here.


The Real Tiko      

by Kenneth D. Bearden

 

Frank jammed his foot up against the reactor housing to get some
leverage.  That damn access plate just wouldn't come off.  With a
tight grip on the handle of the multi-tool, he pushed with his leg,
straining to get the nut to turn.

Wham!  The multi-tool slipped, flew into the air, and popped into
Frank's forehead.

"Shit!"  Rubbing his forehead, he checked for blood.  Yep, sure
enough.  The damn thing had broken skin.  "You're about to piss me
off, you fuckin' thing." 

The blood from his wound started to flow more evenly, and this was all
he could stand.  Using all his might, he kicked the reactor as hard as
he could.  Pain shot up his leg, and he was sure he had, on top of
everything else he had been through in the last 24 hours, bruised his
heel.  

"FUCK!"

Laughter erupted from the open hatch that led up to the command deck. 
Tiko had stopped his decent into the room, and he clung there, frozen
on the ladder by the involuntary belly laugh.  "What'd you think you
would do, punch a hole through half a meter of shielding with your
foot?"

Frank peered at the marine over the top of the reactor.  "Laugh,
laugh, laugh.  Ha, ha."

Tiko couldn't take it, and one arm slipped to hold his gut.  He looked
weak--like the contractions from his laugh would make him fall.  In
between gaps of breath, he said, "You're...you're like the Kafers! 
That's how they thought they were going to get in here too!"  He
bounced up and down on the ladder, using his legs to swing with the
laugh.

Frank put on his best blank face.  "I'm glad you are having so much
fun at my expense."

Tiko howled.  "I've got to get down before you make me fall."  Sliding
to the deck, he popped his thumb towards the hatch in the ceiling. 
Innocent, he said, "So, you want me to go get Too to treat your
wound?"

Frank's blank face turned to a smirk, and he prodded his forehead with
his finger.  "Laugh it up, marine.  Ya know if I was still in command
back on Aramis, you wouldn't think this is that funny."

Tiko's large smile tightened, but he couldn't help but grin.  It
struck Frank as strange, like Tiko's whole mood had just now abruptly
swung.  Searching the marine's features, the playful face was still
there, but Frank could sense that something was different.

"I wouldn't be under your command we were still on Aramis."  Tiko's
tone was a little more serious than it had been before.

Frank played it off.  "Well, you know what I mean--me being your
superior in rank and all.  You know--me E-9 you E-4."

Tiko gave an agreeing motion with his head and looked down.  He didn't
say anything in response.  The conversation was dying.  There was
definitely something up.

Frank, bewildered and uncomfortable with the silence that just fell,
tried to recover with a question.  "...but, since I'm not a sergeant
major anymore, you out rank me, don't you lance sergeant?"

Tiko looked up from his feet.  His tone was serious.  "That would be
true if I were a lance sergeant."

"What do you mean?"  

"Just what I said.  Like you, I once was a marine, but no longer and
not for a while."

Frank just stared.  He couldn't think of anything to say, nor could he
figure Tiko's angle.

Tiko picked up on the cue, and politely, he continued.  "I really
don't know how to put this.  In my line of work, you never speak the
truth--at least not directly.  But you are a fellow marine."

Frank listened.

"I'm going to give it to you straight.  I work for Eneri Giilaan."

Not a muscle moved on Frank's face.  He didn't say anything in
response either.  Tiko searched for clues to tell him how Frank was
taking this news, but Fornne looked like he was caste in granite. 
Frank could play the game with the best of them.  

Tiko nodded his head in appraisal.  "Now I know why they call you the
Rock.  You're a natural.  Eneri picked you well."

"I don't work for Eneri Giilaan."  Frank was careful not to give
anything away that he didn't want given away.  He had seen what kind
of people Eneri had working for him.  Thoughts of innocent people
being murdered just because they forgot to call in sick the day Frank
was on Natoko flashed through his head.  

A quick glance to the floor told him where the multitool was.  It was
the closest weapon Frank had at hand.  Then he darted his eyes back up
to Tiko, searching to see if the ex-marine was on to him.

Tiko's face became warm with practiced ease.  He pretended not to
notice, but, yes, he knew what Frank was thinking.  The man was a
professional--one just like another Frank had met recently, Jod
Sarkin.

Tiko went on like they were talking about the weather.  "You might not
think you are working for Eneri, but you are."

Frank stood ready, his body stiff.  He had seen Tiko fight with a
weapon, and he knew that the man in front of him was probably better
with his bare hands.  In this man's line of work, Frank was sure that
loud guns were not used that often.

"Look, I know what you are thinking."  Tiko kept the nonchalant tone. 
"It's that moment of indecision for you isn't it?  Do I go for he
multitool now, or do I wait for a better opportunity?"

The ex-marine seemed almost playful.  "Or has the best time to make
your move already passed?"

Tiko began, slowly, to bend down.  It gave Frank a start. 
Automatically, his fists came up to defend himself.

Taking a step backwards, Tiko raised his hands, still bending at the
waist, palms open.  "Hold on there big shooter.  I'm not here to hurt
you."  He lowered one arm, ever so slowly, and scooped up the
multitool.  Throughout the whole motion, he kept his head up, locking
eyes with Frank.

Frank saw the multitool in Tiko's hand.  His biceps strained as he
clenched his fists tight, ready to fight for his life.  The bastard
had maneuvered himself closer to the weapon.  He just bent down and
grabbed it.  Frank could try a kick, but given the distance, he was
sure that Tiko would be able to act first.

Slowly bending back up, the multitool held by only a couple of fingers
in his left hand, Tiko brought it towards Frank.

Frank remembered from the combat that Tiko was right handed, and now
the multitool was offered to him, lying in Tiko's open left hand.

"Go ahead, take it."

Frank hesitated.

"No tricks, I promise you."  Tiko moved and jerked the tool closer
towards Frank.

Silence.

"TAKE IT."

Frank lowered his fists to his sides.  "I'm done working on the
reactor at this time."

The tense moment that seemed to overcome Tiko swiftly faded.  His face
relaxing in that practiced grin again, he tossed the tool to the
floor.

Frank looked up to see if anybody heard the multitool strike the metal
deck, but nobody came to the open ceiling hatch.  It was strange,
Frank thought, for such a small station, and for so many people
aboard--all on one deck, he felt completely isolated.  There was no
where for him to turn.

Tiko's demeanor became even more casual.  Frank knew not to trust this
guy--not one millimeter.

There was an almost instantaneous movement contrasting itself from
Tiko's smooth, even motions up until then.  A short zip, a jerked arm,
the sound of metal on leather, and all of a sudden Tiko stood there
with a gleaming gauss pistol in his hand.  

Frank noticed that it was his right hand.  Back to the slow, casual
movements, Tiko used his left to re-zip the front of his coverall. 

"Shit."  Frank was surprised he had said it.

This made Tiko chuckle.  "What, this Frank?"  He motioned to the
weapon in his hands and shook his head.  "You shouldn't be afraid of
this."

Expertly, the ex-marine clicked the magazine release on the weapon,
catching the falling clip in his left hand.  He tilted it toward
Frank.  The high explosive round shined at the top of the clip from
the light in the low ceiling.

"This is a tech level 13 gauss pistol--standard marine issue.  I'm
sure you are familiar with them."

Frank watched as Tiko's hands slid delicately across the weapon like a
16 year old's hands across young, milky white tits.  He slapped the
clip back into the handle, pulled the slide back to chamber a round
and activate the magnetic barrel, and clicked the safety off.

Frank noticed that his own brow had begun to sweat.

"It's a beautiful weapon, Frank.  The Imperium sure knows what it is
doing issuing these."  Tiko measured the weight the hand gun.  "It's
well balanced, albeit a bit heavy for a hand gun."  He winked at
Frank.  "It's that battery that charges the frictionless barrel. 
Those little 4 gram needle- like puppies fly out of this thing at 1500
meters per second."

He studied the gun's profile and motioned towards Frank.  "At this
range, with this ammo, it will put a little hole in the front of a man
but blow out his backside.  Nasty business, those HE rounds--and all
that power in a little, light weight, 4mm round."

Tiko locked on to Frank's face.  He didn't blink.  The gun tossed into
the air, end over end, and slapped back into Tiko's hand, who used
only his peripheral vision when he caught the weapon.

Frank looked at Tiko's hand and saw that he was holding the gun by the
barrel.

"The purpose of all this, Frank, is to cut through all the bullshit. 
I know you don't trust me, so I'm going to have to take a risk."  He
shoved the gun out towards Frank, handle first.

Frank glanced at the weapon, but did not take it.

"Go ahead, Frank.  The gun's yours.  You take it."

Frank stood there.  He wasn't sure what to do.

Tiko took a step forward.  Gently he touched Frank's wrist and put the
weapon into Frank's hand.  Nose to nose, he whispered, "Take the damn
thing."

Frank gripped the weapon, and Tiko stepped back, slowly.

"Now, you've got the upper hand, Frank.  I don't have any other
weapons."  Tiko raised his hands.  "You can call your friends.  You
can kill me.  Or, you can listen to what I have to say.  What'll it
be?"

Frank raised the weapon at Tiko.  "There may only be one round in this
thing, but it looked real enough to me."

Tiko kept his hands in the air, careful not to make any motions.  "It
fully loaded, I assure you."

Frank raised one hand to the communicator on his belt.  His finger
hovered over the transmit control.  The gun he kept aimed at Tiko's
chest, dead center, where the man's heart was.  "Pull your arms out of
your coverall and drop the garment to your knees."

Tiko cracked that grin again.  "Smart cookie.  Yep, Eneri did a good
job in picking you."  He glanced to the open hatch.  "If somebody
happens in, they're gonna think that we are butt monkeys."

Frank didn't smile.  "Do it."

Tiko did as Fornne asked.  First one arm came out, then the other,
before the whole garment was wadded up around his ankles.

Tiko had a marine issue green tank on but nothing more than that other
than a pair of skivvies and his shoulder holster.

"Are you satisfied?"  Tiko asked.   "You see, no other weapons.  Can I
pull my pants up now?"

"Yeah, I'm satisfied, and no you can't,"  Frank said.  "I like the
idea of your legs being hindered."

Frank's comm crackled to life.  "Frank, Drake here.  What's the
progress on the reactor."

For once, Tiko's practiced expression faded as he looked to Frank for
his reply.

Fornne studied the ex-marine, then made his decision.  The finger
pressed transmit control.  "Frank here, Captain.  Everything's under
control."

"Do you want me to send you down some help?"

"Negative.  It's a one man job here.  The panel is too narrow for more
than one to work.  Besides, I'm almost done.  I'll see you topside in
a bit."

"Roger.  Drake out."

A genuine smile crossed Tiko's face.  It was one of admiration.  "For
a raw recruit, you sure are a natural.  That was deftly handled.  You
keep things under control here by keeping the others out of the
picture, but you put in a saving grace in case you get into trouble. 
If it is too long before somebody sees you, the Captain will come
looking.  Deftly handled, yes."

Frank ignored Tiko's praise.  "Well, before that time runs out, you'd
better start talking."

"All right.  As I said, I work for Eneri Giilaan.  As you can guess,
I'm here to get the brooch."

"Why?"

"Because Eneri wants it.  I don't usually ask those kinds of
questions."

"Why does Eneri want the brooch?"

"I told you.  I don't know.  I just follow orders."

Frank was unhappy with that.  He'd have to come back to it.  "Go on."

"I'm Naval Intelligence."  Tiko said.  "You were wanted back on
Aramis.  It wasn't anything big-- just the break in at the museum and
the illegal run outsystem.  The locals were dragging their feet with
catching up with you.  Eneri pulled some strings to get a Marine
detachment after you.  The plan was to capture you and the rest of
your crewmates then cart you off back to Aramis."

"But,"  Frank queried, "Eneri helped us get off Natoko--Jod Sarkin."

"Yes, I know.  But think about it.  He wasn't helping you.  You were
helping him get the brooch out and away from Aramis.  You are a
channel that nobody knows about.  Eneri's plan was to get you off,
with the brooch..."

"...and turn the brooch back over to him,"  Frank finished.  "When I
didn't try to contact him at Patinir, he got worried that I was going
to disappear with the thing."

Tiko shook his head.  "Correct.  You were wanted by the Aramis
authorities, so it should have been a simple matter of capturing you
and shipping you back to Aramis.  My orders were to get you back there
safe and sound."

"Sans the brooch."  Frank said.

"Right,"  Tiko agreed, "without the brooch.  We were going to get it
when we searched you.  But, we never got around to that.  This
emergency is real."

"What about Captain Sturm?"

"The good Captain was a pain in the ass.  Given Eneri's position in
Imperial NI, it was real easy to get the Marine squad and the SD boat
to go after you.  Because of the recent personnel changes at the
Aramis base--something I'm sure Gyr told you about, it was also easy
to substitute my team, the four aces, in place of a real Marine
detachment.

Your Captain gave us a problem, though.  Eneri hadn't reckoned on just
how tight your relationship was with the base commander, and Sturm
pushed his weight around to get a seat on the SD boat.  He even
obtained command of the mission.  Sturm was bound and determined to
find out why you were wanted and what you were mixed up in.

Eneri could have pushed to remove Sturm's command, but not without
attracting too much attention.  Instead, we were to ensure that the
brooch was recovered whether or not you were extradited to Aramis.

Eneri could care less about the charges back there.  He only wants the
brooch."

"So, Sturm knew nothing of your real mission?"  Frank asked.

"Hell no.  All he was concerned with there was making sure that you
were looked after.  He always wanted to know why.  He just couldn't
believe that you could be mixed up in something without good reason."

Tiko was sincere.  "You lost a good friend in Sturm.  We could have
taken you at Patinir, but Sturm fought my team leader and the boat
commander when he decided to follow you to Pysadi."

Now was not the time to be sentimental, Frank knew.  He pushed on. 
"What's so damn important about this brooch?"

"I told you, I just don't know--on my honor."

"You work for Eneri Giilaan.  What do you know of honor?"

Tiko was silent for a moment.  "I know a great deal about honor.  Your
friend wasn't the only good man that died this day.  Three of my
closest friends lie dead down there too.  These were men that saved my
life, and I've saved theirs.  We were a team, and closer than most
lovers or best friends will ever be.

What do I know of honor?  I know enough not to kill those who have
fought beside me.  I gave you a loaded gun, didn't I?  And I'm talking
to you about my top secret mission, aren't I?  Haven't you asked
yourself why I haven't taken the brooch already and spaced the rest of
you?"

Frank looked at him hard.  "I can only guess that you still need us."

"Sure,"  said Tiko, "but why am I talking to you now?  Why don't I
just wait until we are close to orbit at Pysadi, kill the rest of you,
and take the brooch?  Why?"

"Tell me."  Frank said.

Tiko was dead serious.  "It's because I'm one of the good guys.  I'm
Imperial Naval Intelligence.  I don't kill Imperial citizens without a
good reason."

"Wasn't Jod Sarkin NI also?"

Tiko shook his head.  "Yes, Jod is deep cover for NI inside Tukera on
Natoko.  I'm sure whatever he did, he did in the line of duty.  Jod's
a good man."

"That good man, as you call him,"  Frank snarled, "killed several
Imperial citizens, men and women, whose only crime was to go to work
on the wrong day."

Tiko moved his hands for the first time since Frank has had the gun on
him.  "I'm sure he had his reasons.  I don't know.  I wasn't there. 
But, I am here."

At Tiko's movement, Frank twitched the gun to let him know that it was
still trained on him.  Tiko seemed not to notice.

"Frank,  I'm not sure you realize what's going on here.  The brooch is
important, yes.  It was my primary mission."

Frank could see that Tiko had caught his interest in the buzz phrase.

"That's right, Frank.  I said was.  I really don't know what this
brooch thing is all about, but I do know that we've stumbled onto
preliminary staging for a Zhodani invasion and another Frontier War.

You've got to be putting this all together by now.  I've been briefed
on the Kafer.  I've told you all I know about their combat
capabilities, but I haven't told you everything I know about them.  We
have reason to believe that they are the puppets of the Zhodani
Consulate."

Frank was letting this all sink in.

"Think about it."  Tiko continued,  "How could a race of
semi-intelligent bugs have the technology that they possess?"

"I don't know enough about them."  Frank answered.

"Well, I'll answer that for you,"  Tiko said.  "The Zhodani control
them by giving them the technology.  That's right.  The Zhodani
control Kafer technology."

Frank began to realize, "And, the Zhodani don't want to risk an
incident before they are ready.  All of the saber rattling and the
news reports...they're true.  That reporter that predicted another war
between the Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate--he was right on the
mark."

"That's right."   Tiko agreed.  "We've been on alert for some time in
NI.  I'm probably the first agent with real proof.  I've got to get
back to Aramis to report."

"But I don't understand,"  Continued Frank.  "What do the Kafer, or
the Zhodani, want in this system?"

"It's pre-invasion planning,"  Tiko went on.  "They're confirming
their intelligence about Imperial space."

Frank protested, "But, we're eight parsecs into Imperial space.  This
system has no military value.  It's undeveloped.  If their was
something important here, then the Imperium would already have a base
here."

"That's where you are wrong, Frank.  Sure, Pysadi is too far into the
interior of Imperial space to be valuable for the first strike, but
we're only two parsecs from Aramis, the subsector Capitol, and the
Aramis Trace.  Pysadi is also within striking distance of the Rhylanor
subsector."

"They're planning on using Pysadi as a staging point to continue the
war after the invasion?  Why--when there are ship building facilities
capable of supporting that type of war effort on Natoko and Aramis?" 
Frank asked.



This post will be continued in part II.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1092
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 20 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1093



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The Real Tiko Pt II (Short Story--long)
Alien Picture hunting.
All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures
Re: Ideas for new toys
Re: Special Success and Battle Dress [RAMBLING]
Questions about SSDS
Re: Shields?
Re: Shields?
Re: Shields?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:55:31 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: The Real Tiko Pt II (Short Story--long)

This continues the Traveller short story started in part one.

The Real Tiko (cont)

By Kenneth D. Bearden



"There are also Imperial Naval bases at L' oeul d' Dieu, Aramis, and
Natoko."  Tiko responded.  "It's my guess that the Zho's are planning
a blitzkrieg type invasion, swooping deep into Imperial territory,
bypassing any major point of resistance.  Once they get there, it's
easy to cut supply lines and secure the whole subsector.  Then, they
will be in a much better position to deal with those bases and strike
further into Imperial territory in the Rhylanor subsector."

"But, Tiko, why pick Pysadi?  I mean, I know that the system has no
defenses to speak of, but the system is also undeveloped.  There's
simply nothing here.  It seems that one of the other worlds in the
Scatters would be a better choice."

"Yes, that would be true, Frank, but you are forgetting what this
autodrone was given to Pysadi to do.  It's true that Pysadi has no
defenses.  That's a plus for an invasion.  There's also large gas
giant present in the system to provide unlimited fuel to run a fleet
on.  That's plus number two.  But the biggest plus is in that
information that Professor Mir has been so concerned about
protecting."

"Yes."  Frank interjected at Tiko's pause.

"Frank, the planet below is full of Lanthanum.  It's the motherload
that the professor thought was here.  It's exactly the type of load
that can put Pysadi on the map.  The Zho's have probably gotten wind
of this.  They've sent the Kafers forward, probably through Vargr
space, sneaking from system to system, into Imperial space, with the
supreme goal of confirming their intelligence."

"I see,"  Frank said.  "The Kafers are here to get Professor Mir's
data.  If they're caught, it will be the unintelligible bug like race
that we know nothing about.  If they are successful, the Zho's confirm
that Lanthanum is here, and Pysadi goes into their battle plans as a
primary target when the invasion starts.  Then, they build a base here
from which to continue the invasion deeper into Imperial territory. 
There's no initial resistance, so the attack can be assured, and there
is a gas giant here to fuel the fleet while the base facilities are
being built."

Tiko nodded.  "That's how I see it.  Except the Zho's don't know at
this point that we've put two and two together from our previous
encounters with the Kafers.  We know that they are working with the
Zhodani."

"Why are you telling me all of this?"

Tiko held up two fingers.  "Two reasons.  First, somebody else has to
know the importance of what is happening here and get that information
back to Aramis.  Right now, that's my job, but if something happens to
me--we're not out of the danger yet, it will be up to you.  If I'm
taken out, you will need to get this information back to Eneri.

The second reason is that I cannot find a way to complete my first
mission in light of what has happened.  Whether you and your friends
know it or not, you may have just saved the Imperium from an invasion.
 You've definitely just helped to defend it.  If it was easy to get
the brooch, I'd take it with me, but that vargr always has it around
his neck.  Besides that, up until a few hours ago, we were in vac
suits all the time.  The only way to get the brooch, as far as I can
see, is to kill him."

"I am not going to kill him."  Frank interjected right there.  "And,
neither are you.  If he dies, you die."

Tiko's hands flew back up to the 'hands up' position.  "Take it easy! 
That's what I've been trying to tell you.  I've fought beside you
people, and you've just done your government a great service.  I'm not
going to kill anyone.  You've all earned my respect.  That's why I'm
talking to you now."

Tiko sounded sincere.  "I've resigned myself to going back without it.
 This news of the Kafers takes precedence.  But, I can't pretend that
I didn't have a primary mission.  I'm transferring that mission to
you.  You can get it--if not now then sometime in the future, and
forward it to Giilaan.  When we get back to Pysadi, I'll need
transport back to Aramis.  I'll take the boat if it survived the run
in with the Kafer battleship."

Tiko shrugged.  "Of course, I sincerely doubt that.  I'll get passage
on a ship, if there's one in port.  If not, I'll have to commandeer
the Harrier.  The information reaching Aramis is paramount."

"Why didn't you just keep all this to yourself, and then commandeer
the ship back to Aramis?"  Frank asked.  "It seems that way you'd get
the info back and return with the brooch."

Tiko looked at Frank.  Frank was sure that he was seeing honesty in
the man's face.  "Like I said, Frank, there needed to be at least two
of us who knew the importance of what is going on here."  The
ex-marine paused.  "And I'd like to see no harm come to any of you. 
Any of you would have given your lives for the others.  I said that I
respect that.  Trust me when I say that I don't have respect like this
very often.  I'd like to see the brooch returned to Eneri.  If that
can be done without hurting anyone, then I'll do it.  If it can't,
then it is up to you.  You can get it at some opportune time in the
future.  Do you still have the locator card for Eneri on Junidy?"

"Yes."  Frank spoke.

"Well, then.  Get the brooch and get it to him on Junidy.  I've got to
get back to Aramis with this information."

Frank lowered the gun.

"I take it this means that you believe me."  Tiko said.

"I believe you."

"Well, then,"  Tiko continued, "can I pull up my pants then?"

Frank motioned 'up' with the gun.  Tiko laughed at the situation and
pulled his coverall over his shoulders.

Before he could zip, there was the sound of a boot on the metal rung
of the ladder.  Frank shot a glance that way to see Praygor stepping
down from the higher deck.  "Frank, I just thought I'd come check on
you to see how yo..."

The Captain stopped in mid-sentence.  Tiko stood there with an open
coverall, but Frank could see that the gun in his hand is what caught
the Captain's attention.  "What's going on here, Frank?"

Frank stumbled for words, but Tiko, the professional that he is, took
the line smooth as silk.  "I was just showing Frank here my military
issue pistol, Luke."  

Tiko reached out to grip the gun in Frank's hand.  Their eyes met, and
Frank became nonchalant.  "Yes, Captain,"  Frank agreed, "it's been a
while since I held one of these."  He released the weapon to Tiko and
looked him straight in the eye as he finished addressing the Captain. 
"We were just talking about old times."

Praygor, paused halfway down the ladder where he had stopped when he
saw the gun and the peculiar situation, said, "What do you think this
is, man, show and tell hour?  We've got work to do, and we've got to
get out of here before that Kafer battleship shows back up.  Are you
too going vac-crazy on me?"

"No sir."  This time it was Tiko.  "We just took a short break."

"That's right."  Frank agreed.  "I'm almost done with the reactor."

Praygor looked down on them.  "That's what you told me last time. 
We've got live Kafers trying to get out of the front bay.  There's a
battleship out there that could show up at any time and blow us to
bits, and we haven't got the station fully functional yet.  Are you
two out of your minds?"

Frank walked over to the multi-tool, still laying on the deck.  "I'll
be done in a jiffy."

"You'd better."  With that, Praygor plunked back up the hatch.

Frank addressed Tiko.  "And what about that battleship?"

"Yes, that."  Tiko said.  "I don't think we'll see it again if we get
this bucket moving."

Frank raised an eyebrow.  "Why's that?"

"Because I know where the battleship is."

Frank couldn't help but scoff. "You wanna let me in on that?"

"Sure."  Tiko agreed.  "It's running outsystem."

"And how do you know that?"  

"Well,"  Tiko said, "it took about three days for the commtorp to
reach Pysadi when we picked up the distress call.  I figure that was
the first time the battleship appeared.  Since it was a 40,000 ton
ship, it's easy to spot.  Pysadi is not any well traveled star course
by any means, but it does see its share of tramp freighters like the
Harrier.  My guess is that the Kafer ship has orders for minimal
contact and silent running to keep its secrecy.  They reached the
autodrone, dropped off a thousand or so Kafers, which they thought
would do the trick, to attack the station and get the planetary data. 
Not wanting to stay around to minimize detection, especially while an
attack was going on, the ship headed for deep space out system.  The
plan was to swing back and pick up the data."

"But we've already figured out that their life support in their suits
only lasts 15 standard hours."  Frank posited.  "How did they expect
to get the data?"

"They probably have some sort of homing system.  Maybe the leaders
were instructed to do something with the data so that the ship could
find the information."

"So when the ship reappeared when we got here,"  Frank continued,
"they were not surprised to see all of their troops dead because the
life support is only 15 hours?  What kind of intelligent race sends a
thousand of its own kind out to certain death just to obtain some
information?"

"The kind that we are dealing with here."

"Damn."  

"Yeah, that's right,"  Tiko agreed, "damn."

Frank calculated.  "So, given that the ship showed up and dropped the
first load of Kafers...that's three days transit time for the commtorp
and about three days travel time for us to get here...then the ship
reappeared to drop another load to get the info once they saw that the
first group was unsuccessful and, apparently, the Imperium was not
notified.  That's six days in between drops."

"Right."  Tiko nodded, "I'm thinking that the ship is taking six days
to swing out system and return.  We've been here a day, so the ship
will probably be here in another five days.  Given our repairs, we
should be almost to Pysadi by then."

"What if the battleship attacks Pysadi looking for the data?"

"They won't do that,"  said Tiko.  "It will tip their hand.  This is a
covert information gathering mission for them.  They'll go back
without it first, and if I can get back to Aramis in time, I might be
able to set some Imperial cruisers on their trail.  Maybe they can
catch up with them before they leave Imperial space."

Frank thought about the Kafer and their tactics.  "I just don't get
them.  They'd kill two thousand of their own kind for intelligence."

"Intelligence is the key word here,"  Tiko answered.  "From our
previous contacts with them, that's how they operate.  There is some
sort of chemical imbalance in their brains.  I'm not an expert on
their brains so I don't know all the specifics, but I do know that the
information transferring system in their brains is naturally hindered.
 From what I've been told, the theory is that their brain swells, much
like most matter does in heat, and this constricts information
transfer.  This is their normal state.  When they are in danger or
otherwise aroused, however, nature takes over with a built in defense
system.  The brain shrinks, like it is cold or something, and the
information transfer process is no longer hindered.  In reality, they
are just as intelligent as any other sentient race."

"We think,"  Tiko continued, "that the Kafer are not natural to their
homeworld.  There's reason to believe that they were transplanted from
some other place sometime during their evolution-- maybe by the
Ancients, maybe by somebody else.

Postulating, we believe that the Zhodani happened upon the Kafer--who
had only a rudimentary stone age technology.  They were probably not
much more than semi-intelligent cattle, but the Zho's figured out that
the race was intelligent.  I'm sure the Zhodani advanced psionics had
something to do with this."

"Besides,"  Tiko said, "not all of the Kafer are effected equally by
their brain processes.  Notice that the ones that are used as leaders
seem to have a higher intelligence than the others.  We think that the
planet they evolved on, where the Zho's found them, had something to
do with their brain hindrance.  Maybe it was the gravity.  Maybe it
was something they ate.  Maybe it was something in the air.  I don't
know.

The Zhodani found them and trained them.  They capitalized on their
tribal-like war-party tactics and gave them higher technology.  This
is what we've just been up against."

"Uh-hmm," Frank said.  "So they hit something hard, with a bunch of
might, and be damned with tactics.  If they are going in the front
door, they're just going to keep sending men in until the task is
accomplished."

"Exactly,"  agreed Tiko.  "The battleship dropped off about a thousand
men.  Given their low intelligence in this new situation, that is very
confusing to them.  The first group was not successful in gaining
access to the station."

Tiko made a circling motion with his finger.  "The battleship swung
around its trip outsystem, saw that the first group had not
accomplished its goal, and dropped off another thousand or so--but
this time, the Kafer have learned from the first's actions.  This
second group, the one we encountered, was even more deadly.  But as
you have seen, we have defeated them using our noggins."

Frank was quiet, thinking about the whole situation.

Tiko went on.  "Every time we have come across them in space, the
story is the same.  From what we've seen, they have several large
ships, and when they attack a target in space, they hit it with a
large fleet of ships.  We may be able to destroy them 5 to 1, but they
hit us with 10 to 1 odds."

Frank blew a whistle.  "Geez, man.  There must be an incredible number
of these Kafers at the disposal of the Zhodani."

"That's what we've been thinking.  The Zho's have an incredible war
resource in them.  They're dumb, follow orders to the 'T', and
exceptionally loyal.  Danger actually increases their thinking.  It's
like a drug--the more you are successful in repelling them, the more
dangerous they become."

"And, the Zho's have given modern day weapons to a race with a cave
man mentality."  Frank said.

"That's right,"  said Tiko.

"An unstoppable force that just keeps coming,"  Frank continued.  "You
kill one and nine more take his place--with their moral higher than
before you killed him."

"Now you see the importance of getting this information back to
Aramis?"  Tiko asked.  "This is why I've let you in on it.  I need
your help to ensure that the information reaches Eneri and the others
at the Aramis Naval Base."

"I agree 100%,"  Frank answered.  "What do you want me to do about the
brooch?"

"Stick with it.  Take it if you can.  Get it back to Eneri on Junidy."

Frank asked, "What are you going to tell Eneri about it?"

"I don't know,"  Tiko said, "I'll think of something.  I'll just tell
him I couldn't get it and that you are keeping an eye on it.  I'll
tell him we've reverted to plan A."

"I'm not going to betray Gvoudzon,"  Frank told him again.

"I understand that,"  Tiko said.  "I don't expect you to.  Use your
own discretion--tell him if you think it will help.  Like it or not,
you're working for Eneri now."  Tiko paused to underscore the
seriousness.  "You're working for your government."

"I'll do it."  Frank shook his head affirmative.

"Just keep up business as usual,"  Tiko directed.  "We'll keep up with
where the Harrier is.  When the time comes, you'll be contacted.  And,
be careful.  Tukera's on to you too."

"Tukera?"  Frank said with a start, "What do they have to do with
this?"

"We're not sure,"  Tiko answered.  "But we do know that they are
involved.  That's part of Jod's job on Natoko--to find out what their
involvement is.  And they can be dangerous.  Remember the people who
attacked Gvoudzon wanting the brooch back on Aramis?"

"I thought that was you guys."  Frank countered.

"Hell no,"  Tiko came back.  "Eneri's confirmed that was the
Vemene--Tukera's covert security agency.  They're just as equipped as
any of the Imperium's intelligence agencies, and they can be nasty
customers."

Frank caught on.  "The ones who Gvoudzon said was watching him at
work--and watching his apartment?"

"Right."  Tiko said.  "They had tracked the brooch to Gvoudzon and
Aramis.  As far as we can tell, they had him under surveillance
looking for a clue to the location of the brooch.  When that didn't
work, they decided to get a little more direct information, so they
attacked him--figuring the brooch was on him somewhere.  Luckily, he
had already pawned it, and this was not yet discovered by the Vemene."

"That's when Too and I happened upon him outside the Happy Spacer in
Startown."  Frank saw some of the pieces falling into place.

"Yes, that's right.  And besides that, this was the second time you
and the Harrier crew had shown up in our investigation.  Eneri had
already taken notice of you when Glynn approached Roet Bannerji, who
we had under surveillance.  After contacting you, Eneri found out
where the brooch was.  This connected you a second time to Imperial
intelligence.  Instead of officially going to the museum at taking it,
he saw an opportunity to use you to get it for him--keeping the agency
out of it.  We didn't want to tip off that we were on to the brooch. 
The situation, as it presented itself, was perfect for our purposes."

Frank's look turned hard.  "Oh, it's crystal now.  We're bait.  Eneri
is watching where the brooch will take him."

Tiko looked at his feet.  "That's right.  If there is an opportunity
to get the brooch without tipping our hand to the other side, like we
had when we were going to capture you and send you back to Aramis,
we'll take it.  But, we're not going to risk alerting the other side
that we're on to the brooch.  Of course, we're taking a risk not
having the brooch in our actual possession.  Hell, it could have been
lost back on the OSIRIS base as you fought those androids, but given
the current arrangement, I'm taking it upon myself to let it stay with
you.  If you can get it--great.  If you can't, we'll be watching.  At
some point, we'll meet up at Junidy."

Tiko continued,  "You realize that I'm going out on a limb
here--bringing you into the fold."

Frank looked back at him.

"You're not a trained operative.  You're not sworn to uphold the
integrity of the Imperium, like I am."

"I'm a Marine."  Frank said it proud.

Tiko agreed.  "As was I.  And, I'm a good judge of character.  It's
kinda a job requirement.  You'll do what is right for your government.
 I know it."

Frank looked down at Tiko's outstretched hand.

"You may not trust me yet, Frank, but believe me, we're on the same
side."

Frank clasped the man's hand.  "We'll see."

Tiko couldn't help but laugh.  "Yes, you're going to do fine.  One of
the other job requirements is to trust no one."  He looked at Frank
appraisingly.  "Yes, my boss picked you well."

Frank released Tiko's hand.  "So I'm supposed to keep an eye on the
brooch, but go about business as usual.  If I find an opportunity,
I'll get the brooch, but if not, I'll hear from you."

"Probably somebody else."  Tiko corrected.

"What if Drake poses a problem?"

Tiko dismissed that.  "Don't worry about your Captain.  We know all
about him.  If it comes time to let him in--that is, we let Baron Vaan
Praygor in, on what is happening with the brooch or any other official
secret, we've got a leash on him.  If he poses too much of a problem,
we'll make sure that the Jade-Londonists find out where he is."

Frank's eyes widened with the mention of the Captain's real name. 
These people seemed to have every angle fixed.  He'd do well to stay
on their good side.

"We'll not talk of this again."

"Understood,"  Frank said.  "We'd better get this tub moving before
that Kafer battleship comes back."



                         l         l          l



Praygor eased back from the floor hatch.  He could hear that Frank and
Tiko had turned their attention back to repairing the reactor.  He had
just heard all that was important to him.

Sweat began to form on his brow.  Slowly easing back on his hands and
knees, careful not to make a sound that would alert the two below, and
used his legs to stand up.

"Shit," he thought to himself as he padded back out of the room into
the corridor towards the station control center where the rest of the
crew was working.  "Shit, shit, shit, shit."

The End.



If you liked this post, you will also like "Using Kafers in Traveller 
Adventure", in which I detail the events leading up to this scene, 
and "How I'm running the Traveller Adventure", which relates the 
broad strokes of my campaign.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:45:35 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Alien Picture hunting.

I was wondering if anyone knew anywher on the web where i could grab a
(preferably) colour picture of a Hiver, K'Kree and Aslan.

Ive misplaced my Alien modules (grrr).

Thanks all.

michl

electric RAIN                      http://www.electric-rain.net/


Jokun
THE BROKEN RESOLUTION
Another year departs: the bell is tolled.
- -And I intended never growing old!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 15:15:48 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Andrew writes...
>
>> I've always imagined "Nobles" (as in the career) as being akin to the
>> British Empire UCT (Upper Class Twit). Gentleman (and woman) adventurers who
>> set off with firm jaws, a classical education, and a belief in manifest
>> destany and Noblese Oblige to build an empire despite the best attempts of
>> the British government to avoid it. Clive of India, Cecil Rhodes,
>> TC Lawerence, Stanley Livingstone et al.
>
>Edmund Blackadder, Bertie Wooster, whatever the name of the Minister in
>Yes Mr. Minister is...the Imperium is doomed, I tell you, doomed!

Harry Flashman.  (The rest of known space is going down the drain with it,
and lock up your wives & daughters & small valuables.)

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:54:20 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Ideas for new toys

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, JayStr wrote:

> 7) DET-TAPE. Plastique or something similar in an adhesive roll -- like
> duct-tape, only considerably more dangerous. Once you unroll it, the
> adhesive becomes super-sticky on contact with air (imagine the look on
> the bad guy's face as you slap some on his forehead & wave the detonato=
r
> in his face!) The length of the strip determines the explosive power (x
> many joules per. inch, say). Little teeny detonators are built in, alon=
g
> with a touch-sensitive screen-strip (like the screen on a portable
> computer, but flexible) running down the middle.=20
>=20
> Set it to go off after a given amount of time, or command-detonate it
> using the control unit in the center of the roll. If you include
> IR-sensitive lenses, you can set it like a mine; if you embed sharp
> nasty things in the surface, you've just made a crude Claymore mine. A
> million and one uses for the resourceful adventurer! A great gift for
=D8 Dad!

Fun stuff. I have also used something similar for boarding actions.
Marines use it for cutting through walls, etc. Picture a glue gun that
rolls out a thick bead of some type of shaped charge, roll it out in a
large circle, stand back, BANG, instant door.=20

I would love to see more of these ideas, as well as some archaic toys
and rules for use.  Some day this could be printed in the Journal, call
it Grimms Traps or something. Nothing like springing new and fun stuff
on the PC=92s while they wonder through the low tech backwoods feeling
like gods.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 15:35:33 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Special Success and Battle Dress [RAMBLING]

At 10:23 PM 3/18/97 -0000, Dominic Reynolds wrote:

>Now does the special success in the T4 game mean you get
>lucky, even against someone in Battle dress.

<various odd possibilities snipped>

Well, BD has a view slit, joints that have to be flexible, and other weak
points.. perhaps your shot hit one of them.  The point of spectacular sucess
is that not only does the character suceed, he does so in an amazing manner.
My first thought would be that the round hit the Marine's plasma weapon,
causing it to explode when fired, severly wounding the Marine..

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
| "I will not have my spleen serve the Zionists!" |
|                             -Bill Turnbow       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 18:30:37 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@netins.net>
Subject: Questions about SSDS

I'm putting some finishing touches on a SSDS spreadsheet (Which I
will make available to others when finished), but I have a couple
of questions:

1) How is the Armor Rating (on the USP) found? Is it the armor
value you use when building the hull?

2) How the %#$@% do you calculate weapon battery USPs? Could someone
provide some concrete examples? In particular, it appears to me
that all of the Meson Bay weapons have USPs of 2/0-0-0-0, which
make them useless...

3) Meson screen rating on the table - is that the number you enter
on the USP, or do you look up that rating on the USP table and use
the number there?

Thanks...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@netins.net - http://www.netins.net/showcase/theakins/   |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:51:08 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Shields?

At 02:49 AM 3/19/97 +0000, you wrote:
>I forgot about the black globes (whats a white globe?)
>
>c'ya hate to be ya,
>
>michl
>
>
>

White globes are black globes that 'flicker'. Normal black globe lets
nothing in or out, you are safe, but you can't shoot, either. 'Flickering'
the field would be timed to weapons/sensors so that you could get a shot off
between times the field was up. And hoped no one else had gotten the timing
down on your 'flicker' rate to hit you when you were trying to shoot.

I believe all such devices were ancient artifacts only in CT. FF&S changed
the definition so that black & white were different, and could be
manufactured at tech level 15+.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:17:29 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: Shields?

On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Garry Ward wrote:


Okay, we always played black globes as white globes (by the definition you
gave) and had them as TL16+ device (an ancient device) so the black globe
is more of a "cloaking" device, ie when its on, no one can see you, and
even if they did they couldnt get threw teh shield, while white globes are
the closest thing to a traditional sci-fi "sheild" there is.

Okay thanks.

> 
> White globes are black globes that 'flicker'. Normal black globe lets
> nothing in or out, you are safe, but you can't shoot, either. 'Flickering'
> the field would be timed to weapons/sensors so that you could get a shot off
> between times the field was up. And hoped no one else had gotten the timing
> down on your 'flicker' rate to hit you when you were trying to shoot.
> 
> I believe all such devices were ancient artifacts only in CT. FF&S changed
> the definition so that black & white were different, and could be
> manufactured at tech level 15+.
> 
> Garry
> 
> 
> 


Jokun
THE BROKEN RESOLUTION
Another year departs: the bell is tolled.
- -And I intended never growing old!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 23:43:43 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Shields?

In a message dated 3/19/97 7:51 PM, Garry Ward wrote:

>White globes are black globes that 'flicker'. Normal black globe lets
>nothing in or out, you are safe, but you can't shoot, either. 'Flickering'
>the field would be timed to weapons/sensors so that you could get a shot off
>between times the field was up. And hoped no one else had gotten the timing
>down on your 'flicker' rate to hit you when you were trying to shoot.

I've never assumed that. To me a flickering Black Globe is just that: a 
Flickering Black Globe. A White Globe has always been a "one way" Black 
Globe. Energy can leave when it's on, but never enter. Black Globes are 
introduced at TL-15, White Globes at TL-20.

Quoth MegaTraveller Referee's Manual, page 80:
"White globes restrict any projectile or beam from contacting the craft 
while still allowing the occupants to see out and to use sensors without 
restriction."

>I believe all such devices were ancient artifacts only in CT. FF&S changed
>the definition so that black & white were different, and could be
>manufactured at tech level 15+.

Quoth Book 5: High Guard, page 31:

"Black globe generators are not available commercially; they are 
recovered artifacts installed on a makeshift basis or experimental 
versions installed on tech level 15 Imperial warships."

So, even in CT, there are *experimental* TL 15 manufactured black globes, 
presumably based on tinkering with recovered ancient artifacts and 
copying them.

And White Globes were introduced in MT. (I can't find and don't recall 
earlier references to White Globes). The definition certainly didn't 
change in FF&S.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1093
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 20 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1094



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!
Re: Shields?
Systematic psionics (was Re: Shields?)
Re: Shields?
Re: MegaTravller -> T4
Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...
Question and Comments
Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures
Re: Ideas for new toys
Re: SDB Designs
Re: MegaTravller -> T4
Re: Size of the galaxy
Re: Thudd Entries
Re: Terraforming
Re: THUDDD Votes (March)
Clones
Re: Size of the galaxy
Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!
Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins
Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal
Re: Shields?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 00:59:46 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] EDU...Finally!

At 06:18 PM 3/13/97 EST, you wrote:
>Just like Int theoretically represents IQ, Edu theoretically represents a
>level of school achieved (but not necessarily a diploma fromt hat school).
>Thus, someone with Edu 4 has finished grade school (but may not necessarily
>have a "certificate of completion" so commonly given out. On the other hand,
>it is possible for someone to have a BA and not have the corresponding Edu A.
>>...

Is this to say that a character who rolled boxcars during chargen, giving
EDU = C by age 18 is gifted?  I wonder, because, given yr (snipped)
equivalencies, that's equiv. to a master's degree, and, even using the
strictest attribute assignment (i.e., cast 2D6 for STR, 2D6 for END, etc.,
in a given order), 2.8% of all characters would wind up that way, and that's
BEFORE any higher education.

I've fooled a bit with giving +1 EDU (NOT +4) for college completion, +1 for
advanced education completion (presumably, though in many situations not the
case, grad school is harder and more concentrated than undergrad), and +1
for honors (creme de la creme...)  This, at least, makes it less likely that
characters will have "wasted" several EDU points during chargen.  A starting
EDU of C, plus undergrad (+1), undergrad honors (+1), grad school (+1), and
grad honors (+1) will still waste a point of EDU (max = F, not F+1...), but
this reduces the problem (as perceived by me...) from a common one to a
relatively rare one I can generally ignore (and rationalize/argue when it
DOES occur!)...

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 00:21:57 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Shields?

In a message dated 3/19/97 9:17 PM, Solomani wrote:

>Okay, we always played black globes as white globes (by the definition you
>gave) and had them as TL16+ device (an ancient device) so the black globe
>is more of a "cloaking" device, ie when its on, no one can see you, and
>even if they did they couldnt get threw teh shield, while white globes are
>the closest thing to a traditional sci-fi "sheild" there is.

What follows is my brief synopsis of Black/White Globe technology.


Effects:

    Black Globe: No matter/energy can penetrate or leave.
    Flickering Black Globe: Partial matter/energy transmission.
    White Globe: Matter/energy can leave, no matter/energy can penetrate.


Limits:

    Black Globe: Amount of energy ship capacitors can store.
    White Globe: Amount of energy ship capacitors can store and reliably 
discharge through the energy field (the field glows white when capacitors 
discharge, hence the name) Energy "thoroughput"

Neither Black nor White Globes are "inpregnable". There are limits to the 
amount of energy they can absorb. These limits are set by the capacitors 
installed on the ship.

For Black Globes, energy can't be quickly discharged while the shield is 
on. For White globes, energy is discharged as it is absorbed, but there 
is a maximum rate at which this can occur.


Comments:

Black Globe:

Useless as cloaking device unless the ship jumps insystem with the globe 
"on". If the globe is switched "on" after it has already been tracked by 
enemy sensors, the trajectory of the ship is set in stone, since it can 
no longer maneuver (no energy can leave, remember). So a no-flicker 
black-globed ship is a sitting duck. Enemy ships lock sensors on 
projected position and fire all weapons, overload the ship's 
capacitors... and... ***boom***.

However, even if the ship jumps insystem with the Globe "on", it is still 
detectible. It will show up as a big "hole" in background radiation 
passive sensor readings.

White Globe:

I disagree with your comment about "closest thing to a sci-fi shield 
there is." Most Sci-fi shield's appear to be ablative things that have 
their effectiveness reduced with each hit. "Shields at 10%, one more hit 
and we're toast!" The Traveller White Globe, by contrast, is always rated 
at the same efficiency, but can only handle so much damage at a time. 
"Capacitors discharging, now at 90% capacity... 80%... oh sh*t! We've 
been hit with another 2000 Megawatts of laser fire!" <sound of capacitors 
exploding>

I think Black Globes are closer to standard Sci-fi shield's in that 
regard, since they are not as easily discharged, and therefore each hit 
is cumulative.

Also remember that if a large enough object (asteroid, spacecraft) were 
to try to penetrate a Black or White Globe, the shield diverts the 
kinetic energy of the object to the capacitors which overload and explode.

Vargr First Mate: "Keptin! The ship has raised its Black Globe!"
Kamikazi Captain: "Rrrramming Speed!"

PS. One thing I just thought of. A ship with a White Globe might have a 
better "cloaking device" if it can control the radiation of energy from 
the shield to precisely match background radiation. Energy striking the 
White Globe would simply be radiated out the opposite side.


===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:51:39 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Systematic psionics (was Re: Shields?)

>From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>[deletion]
>Given this, psionics in Traveller always seemed to me to be a useful
>oddity; the exception that proves the rule in a way.  I'm fooling around[deletion]

>In other words, I don't intend to make it clear right off whether these psionics are 
>for real, are _truly_ inexplicable from a technological point of view, or whether 
>they're just another application of known physical laws.  That may be one thing the
>players have to find out on their own, if they think it's relevant.

>So what are your thoughts on this?  Have you fooled around much with
>psionics in your games other than as a rare NPC-used device?  Do you think

I once combined the Doomsday Weapon from the Star Trek episode of, I think, the same 
name (first series), with the monstrous machinery from Forbidden Planet, and a weapon in 
the comic book series Six from Sirius.  The Forbidden Planet weapon, as you will recall, 
released "the monsters of the id" -- I even had a dying NPC gasp that out to the PCs -- 
which then ravaged the planet.  The Six from Sirius weapon was similar.  In my game, the 
monsters of the id -- including latent psionic powers -- of a planetary population were 
enough to blow a planet into asteroids (like the Doomsday Weapon).  It was of course an 
Ancient weapon, and there were NPC Droyne out looking for it, as well as Imperial and 
Zhodani spies.  

In the same campaign, there is a drug that unlocks some latent psionic powers.  The 
problems with the drug are that the psionic powers are unpredictable and uncontrollable, 
and that the drug is highly addictive, with more drug being needed to achieve the same 
effects each time.  It nevertheless sells well among those members of the 
counter-culture who believe that the Psionics Suppressions were a bad thing.  

I've also taken the position that psionics don't work well in laboratory-type settings, 
basically because of the Heisenberg Principle:  measurement affects the thing measured. 
The Zhodani, the Droyne, and the Psionics Institutes all teach psionics in non-clinical, 
non-rational -- but well-planned -- settings.  This does slow down the acquisition of 
knowledge about the subject, however. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:05:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Shields?

>However, even if the ship jumps insystem with the Globe "on", it is still
>detectible. It will show up as a big "hole" in background radiation
>passive sensor readings.

Correction: It will show up as a SMALL "hole" in background radiation. At
space combat ranges it would presumably be very hard to detect this unless
occulting a star (which is quite unlikely) given the small angular radius
of the ship at space combat ranges.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 00:07:11 -0800
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: MegaTravller -> T4

- ----------
> From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
> To: Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: MegaTravller -> T4
> Date: Tuesday, March 18, 1997 3:15 PM
> 
> 
> Im curious, i never bought megatravller stuff (only traveller) and have
> only just started buying T4 material after a long holiday from traveller
- -
> what happened?
> 
> Last thing i read was that the Imperium was suffering a civil war after
> the assination of the emperor.  Next thing i know we have the third (or
is
> it fourth?) imperium with a tech peak of 12? 
> 
> If i remember correctly, Traveller had a peak of 14 with techs of 16+
> being "ancient" technology.
> 
> 
> SaHua,
> 
> michl
> 
actually if i remeber corectly... tl-16 was the highest in the imperium...
and tl-25
was ancients..... based on Mega Traveller... but yes i agree i miss alot of
those
cool things found in CT and MT likes weapons etc.... maybe one day when
the emperor's arsenal gets released will se some of our favorites...



                         - Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 02:43:20 -0800
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...

<snip>
 All this talk about "How can this weapon outperform a modern anit-tank
rifle in velocity?!@#$" is silly this is a TL-12 weapon.. We are talking
*far future*(no pun, honest...)
 As far as structeral integrity of the round, that is a valid concern, but
who knows how strong TL-12 materials.. I've never seen any solid stress
ratings on superdense myself.
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 05:17:06 -0600
From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Question and Comments

What ever happened to Dave Golden's site, and or the work that was being
done on the upcoming Naval Architects Handbook???

I think that QSDS & SSDS are ok but I cant bring myself to putting much
effort into designing ships when there is so much limitation in both
systems. 5000 ton max, am I to believe that the Imperium does not have a
ship bigger than that, even at TL12? Get serious!?! The design sequence in
MegaTraveller was even better!  

Of all the material that has been produced for T4, ship generation has been
given secondary consideration as far as I can see.  

If I am way off base here Please let me know.  I'm not trying to rain on
anyone's parade, I just would like to see something worthwhile done.

Soapbox mode off.

Comments? Questions? I will be looking forward to reading them, both
positive and negative.

______________________________
Dave Murray
DRM13@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:22:17 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures

Kenji wrote:

>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>> Andrew writes...
>>
>>> I've always imagined "Nobles" (as in the career) as being akin to the
>>> British Empire UCT (Upper Class Twit). Gentleman (and woman)
>>>adventurers who
>>> set off with firm jaws, a classical education, and a belief in manifest
>>> destany and Noblese Oblige to build an empire despite the best attempts of
>>> the British government to avoid it. Clive of India, Cecil Rhodes,
>>> TC Lawerence, Stanley Livingstone et al.
>>
>>Edmund Blackadder, Bertie Wooster, whatever the name of the Minister in
>>Yes Mr. Minister is...the Imperium is doomed, I tell you, doomed!
>
>Harry Flashman.  (The rest of known space is going down the drain with it,
>and lock up your wives & daughters & small valuables.)


     Ah yes.  The great Sir Harry Flashman, Hero of Kabul, veteran of
the Charge of the Light Brigade, world traveller, cricketer, and all around
good egg.  Brilliant, old boy.  Excellent suggestion indeed.  An old chum
of mine, in one of the better regiments, once told me that in his regiment,
old Flash Harry is regarded as the epitome of military virtue; when
confronted with a sticky wicket, the better officers merely ask themselves
"What would Flashy do?". <harrumph>  An excellent line of reasoning, and
one I say should be encouraged.  Pass the port, there's a good chap...

//Victorian upper-class twit spoof mode=off

     For those poor TML'ers who haven't read them, the Flashman books
are utter brilliance, and deadly funny.  The basic premise is that the
hero, the bully in the classic _Tom Brown's Schooldays_, a totally
degenerate cad without a spot of virtue (I mean, really; he's a liar,
cheat, bully, coward, whoremonger, and general sleazeball) is expelled from
Rugby, and goes into the military...  and through diligent application of
his abovementioned, er, qualities, rises through the ranks at breakneck
speed and over the course of several novels gets  involuntarily involved in
most of the great conflicts of the 19th century.

     Flashy would make a great Traveller noble.

     And incidentally, the story about my friend guiding his military
decisions by asking "What would Flashy do?" is true.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 03:03:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ideas for new toys

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, JayStr wrote:
>
>> 1) MASERS. If the US Army can build a microwave gun that (theoretically)
>> can bake human beings inside buildings and arc-weld tanks (or anything
>> metal) together, why can't the Imperium?
>
> Interesting idea, but in the interest of game balance, make it extremely
> short range (1-10 meters maybe) and easily shielded against.  Otherwise
> there should be a Maser Rifle in the T4 main weapons page.

Not necessarily. Wavelength matters. Even a millimeter wavelength maser
would be a pain to fit into a rifle A centimeter wavelength one would
be impossible.

Sheilding is also affected by wavelength. The beam will diffract around
some types of shielding. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:37:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: SDB Designs

>Quote mode on<
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:51:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: System Defense Boat Design

  To provide context for the Mercenary Cruiser THUDD competition, I'm
fooling around with some System Defense Boat designs.  I took as a
starting point the Classic Traveller SDB from Supplement 7 - Traders and
Gunboats.  Based on a 400T hull, the CT SDB has 6G performance, mounts two
triple laser turrets and two triple missile turrets, and carries a crew of
10.  There is extra cargo space for missiles.  The ship uses TL12
technology.  Cost is about 775MCr.

  I fooled around with some lower tech designs using QSDS 1.5 and
Wildstars Big List of Hulls.  At TL9 it looks like a 400T SDB designed
with this system would carry only missiles, since no lasers are available,
and the smallest QSDS PA-Gun (CT N-PAWS) weighs in at 200T.  SSDS would
probably do a better job.  I'd probably go with a mix of two types of
ships.  One type would have a larger hull, maybe 600T, with a PA-Gun,
a couple of missile batterys, and some sandcasters.  The second type would
be smaller, 200 or 300T, with missiles and sandcasters only.

  At TL10 QSDS gives you a laser bay weapon, though aside from power
consumption it's pretty much inferior to the TL-9 PA-Gun, especially in
terms of range. Again, missiles are still the best bet.  I put together a
nice 400T 6G SDB at TL10 with 2 laser bays, two missile turrets, two
sandcasters, and small military sensors, plus a big cargo bay for extra
missiles, all for about 610MCr.  Adding the medium military sensors would
run about 200MCr more.

  At TL11, the QSDS system gives you a nicer PA-Gun - half the tonnage
(100T), cheaper, and slightly less crew.  Looks good, so a SDB would
likely mount one of these, plus some laser turrets (finally available at
TL-11) and missile turrets.

  So that's the threat - consider it!
>Quote Mode off<

Interesting, I like your run down of SDB's over various tech levels.
I just wanted to mention a SDB that i created using QSDS.

>Role Playing On<
Introducing X-TEK's "Wulfen" Class Planetary Defence Boat.
The Wulfen is a 100td Airframe hull that offers maxium speed 6g. It can 
quickly chase down its prey in both atmosphere and vacuum.  It has 2 
military grade quad-las turrets wich provide both power and range.  Both are 
slaved to a Master Fire Director on the bridge, so that one gunner can 
co-ordinate fire from both turrets.  Both the lasers and the Drive Plates 
suck up tremoendous power, do a 500MW fusion plant was installed.  There is 
no room on the PDB for jump capability, it doesn't need it as  its primary 
mission specs do not require jump capability.
Variants of the PDB will include the PDB-Msl  the Missile PDB
the PDB-PA, the Particle accelerator PDB
and the PDB-Me, the Meson PDB

This class gets its name from the ancient Solomani-German "Wulfen" Wolf or 
Wolves.  Indeed these craft are most effective when in a large wing or 
flight, also known as the "Wolf Pack"
>Role Playing Off<

The exact specs of the Planetary Defence Boat are at my site
(http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/trav.htm)
From the Loby, go to Promenade, and then go to Shipyards.

amazing what one can do with a 100ton hull eh? :)
From the Commander at the Office
(pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 04:37:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: MegaTravller -> T4

In mail you write:

>
> Im curious, i never bought megatravller stuff (only traveller) and have
> only just started buying T4 material after a long holiday from traveller -
> what happened?
>
> Last thing i read was that the Imperium was suffering a civil war after
> the assination of the emperor.  Next thing i know we have the third (or is
> it fourth?) imperium with a tech peak of 12? 
>
> If i remember correctly, Traveller had a peak of 14 with techs of 16+
> being "ancient" technology.

T4 is starting with the *founding* of the Third Imperium. That puts it
1100-1200 years *before* CT and Megatraveller.

There will be source material for other "eras", they are just starting
out with this one.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 00:35:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy

In mail you write:

> But the inter-arm 'rifts' are full of stars like our own. As I understand
> it, these zones are not much less dense than our local region, in terms of
> older Population I stars. So in theory you could jump from star to star
> across the inter-arm zones just as easily as across the Orion arm.

Well, sort of. Population I stars will *only* have gas giants as
planets, and they'll be almost pure hydrogren/helium. This requires
skimming, and I'm not all that sure that you'd find GGs often enough to
refuel.

> Sun is now ~50 ly (15.34 pc) above Galactic midplane.
>    Maximum height: 250 ly above, in ~14 million years.
>    Maximum depth: 250 ly below.
>    Crosses midplane every 33 million years.
>
> It's a shame the Sun isn't at its maximum height now, because that would
> put us above the densest dust lanes and give us a grandstand view of
> things. As it is, we have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees, as
> it were.

Or we might get fried by the unsheilded radiation from the Core. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 02:10:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Thudd Entries

In mail you write:

> While the meson gun is a great STS weapon, and can move some mud if you
> have numbers (i.e. the IN), I still like dead fall ordnance for local
> support. I seem to remember a SF story about a ship in low orbit
> dropping some type of steel bars (specially designed for that) over the
> target. What type of effect would that have? And would be the time on
> target?=20

The "deadfall" ordinance is basicly in orbit, and then given a nudge
that results in a new orbit that intersects the ground near the target.
Terminal guidance changes the "near" to "on". 

For earth, we're talking about 7 km/sec, and a "reasonable" de-orbit
impulse, so the total path could be several hundred KM (150-200 km
orbital height, plus a substantial sideways component.

Note that "flying crowbars" of this sort will *definitely take out a
tank. For bunkers and large vessels you use "flying telephone poles".
:-)

At these velocities you are talking about every kilo of projectile
being equivalent to almost 6 kilos of TNT. But in the form of a
directed "jet". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 04:03:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Terraforming

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 Neveron@aol.com wrote:
>
> Why use iceburgs at all?
>
> Why not use giant reflectors circling the planet to warm it up, melt the
> ice caps (assuming your terraforming a world with some amount of water)
> then introduce various lifeforms like microbes and then more complex
> things like plant life. 

Maybe because the icecaps don't have enough water to fill a decent
*lake*, much less supply water (and oxygen!) for a decent ecosphere?

Remember, Mars has icecaps. But they are mostly frozen CO2. The water
is just a trace. 

Unless the planet has *substantial* amounts of water, using bacteria
etc won't help. If it *does* have that much water, it's more likely to
already *have* a breathable atmosphere, unless life never evolved as
far as developing photsynthesis.

Also, another reason for the "iceburg" approach would be something like
Venus. They can help increase the rotation, and cool things a little. 

Also, you need the "iceburgs" (or at least the hydrogen from them) and
a whole *bunch* of carbonaceous chondritic material, and some "stony"
bodies for the raw material for those huge mirrors! Hydrogen and carbon
for the plastic, aluminum for the coating. 

At one mil (25 microns) thick, a 1 km square film has a volume of 25
cubic meters. And a mass of a few hundred tons. Get the picture?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:11:00 -0500
From: J_Lambert <J_Lambert@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Votes (March)

THUDDD Votes (March)

On 18 March, Tiger asked for some comments on the THUDDD voting system and
what how we think it could be bettered.  Here is my 0.02 Cr worth. My
feeling is that some of the categories on previous ballots have been too
detailed for non-starship designer. The categories left the impression that
you had to redesign each entry to ensure that it followed the QSDS or SSDS
rules. I think the typical Traveller players may not always know detailed
starship design, but they know what they like. 

To get better participation, I would suggest having two ballot types for
THUDDD. One straightforward ballot with which you could vote for your
favorite, rank order your three favorites, or rate each design from one to
ten. No details, no justification necessary; and it could be completed
quickly. The second ballot type would be for us gear-heads. It would
include a vote for the favorite design(s) to be tallied with the rest, but
it would go on to include more detailed criteria such as compliance with
design rules, economic considerations, etc. Because it would not be for
general consumption, it could include much more detailed criteria than
previous ballots. You might not get many ballots of the second type, but,
as a designer, I know I would like to see even a few detailed evaluations
of my entry. 

One problem with this system would be entries that totally blow the design
rules, but have popular appeal, i.e., a spinal mount meson gun on a cutter.
My suggestion here would be to have the gear-head ballot include a "pass -
fail" vote on design rules at the eighty or ninety percent level. By that I
mean let minor design glitches pass, but fail really serious infractions;
we all make mistakes, even me. I'm sure that serious design infractions
would also be identified on the TML soon after the entries were posted.

Later, John Lambert, j_lambert@compuserve.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:10:58 -0500
From: Jeff Harvey <jharvey@nlci.com>
Subject: Clones

I am fairly new to Traveller, and have just begun refereeing a game.  I
am working on a campaign that has a "Blade Runner" feel to it.  I am
using TNE rules.  Because my PC's are new to Traveller as well, I'm
starting them pre-Virus to let them get a feel for some of the
technology, before I take it away from them.  I was wondering if anyone
has rules for cloning.  Are there Mega-corporations in Traveller that
would specialize in creating clones for interested persons.  If anyone
has any information on the subject of cloning in Traveller, I would
appreciate hearing from you.  You can either post it here, or e-mail me
directly.  Thank you.

                              Jeff Harvey

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:18:19 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > Sun is now ~50 ly (15.34 pc) above Galactic midplane.
> >    Maximum height: 250 ly above, in ~14 million years.
> >    Maximum depth: 250 ly below.
> >    Crosses midplane every 33 million years.

> > It's a shame the Sun isn't at its maximum height now, because that would
> > put us above the densest dust lanes and give us a grandstand view of
> > things. As it is, we have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees, as
> > it were.
 
> Or we might get fried by the unsheilded radiation from the Core. :-)

Isn't there some evidence of a 65 million year extinction cycle?  Here
we have 66 million years from peak to trough. Maybe there *is* something
about being too far from the galactic plane!

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 20:10 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: TNE and the Heretic Order!

In-Reply-To: <199703101910.LAA05275@victor1.mscomm.com>

<< Ah, yes.  _Good Omens_.  That book had me chortling and laughing for 
days.  Imanaged to get one of the authors (Neil Gaiman) to autograph my 
copy. >>

<smug>
Got 'em both!
</smug>
    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 20:10 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins

In-Reply-To: <B465312538C@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>

<< -> << >Favorite Traveller Adventure/Product (CT)
- -> >Loonies: "Chainsaw Combat In Traveller" (Space Gamer article)
- -> 
- -> I will find this and IT will be good >>
- -> 
- -> Heh, heh, heh...I have that issue :-)
Any chance to post the best bits? >>

Sorry, it's currently buried during redecorating. ISTR damage was 4-5d.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 20:11 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: A remarkable trip to Turtle Island, Sabah, Mal

In-Reply-To: <3326E61F.40F8@ibm.net>

> > >This has happened before - what's appropriate response?
> I favour mass replies 

I prefer mass drivers.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:30:45 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Re: Shields?

Gary stated:

<<White globes are black globes that 'flicker'. Normal black globe lets
nothing in or out, you are safe, but you can't shoot, either. 'Flickering'
the field would be timed to weapons/sensors so that you could get a shot off
between times the field was up. And hoped no one else had gotten the timing
down on your 'flicker' rate to hit you when you were trying to shoot.

I believe all such devices were ancient artifacts only in CT. FF&S changed
the definition so that black & white were different, and could be
manufactured at tech level 15+.>>

Hmm. Quick check at MT rules, refs manual...

<globe down> ;-)

Most black globes can flicker, and are either recovered Ancient artifacts,
or early prototypes from TL15 upwards. They stop *all* energy, either way.
You cannot see or sense in or out.

White globes are TL20+ artifacts which allow the user to see out and also
use sensors.

*MT* changed the definition.

Q: Black globes are more stealthy?

<globe back up>

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1094
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 21 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1095



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ideas for new toys
Re: martial arts
Re: Size of the galaxy
Re: Templars
Re: Terraforming
Re: MegaTravller -> T4
Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...
Shields 
Some world generation oddities...
Re: Shields?
Re: Templars
Re: System Defense Boat Design
Living on antifreeze
Re: Templars
Re: Systematic psionics
Wulfen SDB
skills
Re: skills
Re: Size of the galaxy
Black Globes and J-space
Thrusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:35:53 -0500
From: "Dorn, Michael" <Michael_Dorn@dscc.dla.mil>
Subject: Re: Ideas for new toys

One problem with this idea of explosive tape with detonators already
built in - I would not want to be around when someone overrides the
detonator frequency.  

>The length of the strip determines the explosive power (x  many joules per.
>inch, say). Little teeny detonators are built in, along with a
>touch-sensitive screen-strip (like the screen on a portable computer, but
>flexible) running down the middle.

Having done range clearance on a bombing range - I was taught to always
keep detonators and explosive separate until ready to blow something up.
 This prevents inadvertent explosions when in close proximity - Not a
good thing  to be near when it occurs.

>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:37:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: martial arts

     Howdy!

On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Harald Budschedl wrote:

> Not exactly true. In ninjutsu (I have to take this example, because I
> know it best), there is a part of the training, called kajutsu, which
> deals with firearms, there use, defense against them, as well as various
> matters of explosives.

     Modifying styles to deal with firearms is a very recent thing.
Although some groups have had limited experience with some explosives <g>.


> In modern ninjutsu (bujinkan dojos) there are seminars of combat
> shooting and similar things.

     Effectiveness of such training is under intense debate within MA
and military circles.

> 
> So if not in other MA, in ninjutsu firearms PLAY an important roll.

     Again, a number of styles teach "defense" against firearms, but
there is some disagreement concerning their effectiveness... :)

     Laterish!

     Ken

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:56:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy

Quoth Leonard Erickson:
> Well, sort of. Population I stars will *only* have gas giants as
> planets, and they'll be almost pure hydrogren/helium.

Incorrect.  Stellar populations are numbered in _reverse_ order, if only
because Population I stars (like our Sun) were the first discovered.  When
metal-poor stars were found, they were christened Population II before
they were found to be older.  The putative class of _extremely_ metal-poor
stars (probably only red dwarfs still survive) has been called "Population
III" in the literature, IIRC.

FWIW, I believe the closest Pop II star to Sol is Arcturus -- its space
velocity suggests it's a cometary halo object (lots of II's there),
"passing through" the galactic disk.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:36:46 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Templars

On 19-Mar-97, Traveller-digest wrote:

T>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:42:14 -0800
T>From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
T>Subject: Templars (was Re: Protectors (was:Battle Dress))

T>- - Officially, the Imperial government puts the Templars down as a rumor
T>based on overactive imaginations.  Very quietly they will admit that they
T>exist, but are no more than a minor nuisance.  _Very_ unofficially, the
T>highest levels of the Imperial government have been known to work closely
T>with the Templar leadership on especially thorny problems where the
T>Imperial Sun might not be a welcome sight.  The Templars are not precisely
T>mercenaries, but if Imperial goals and their own intersect, why should
they
T>not act?  And since so many (all?) of the Templars are of noble birth,
T>their aims and the Imperial Aristocracy's are not often far apart.  Oh,
and
T>Templars love nothing quite so much as teaching some young braggart Noble
a
T>clear lesson about the way the Universe _really_ works.  

That's the kind of relationship I think they would have with the Imperium as
well.  If we are taking the model (you could say /template/ :-) ) of these
guys from the Templars of old earth I think they will like to remain quite
aloof from the rest of imperial society as much of the mainstream of
Imperial Society shuns their ways and finds nobles acting in this way rather
distasteful.  They act more like a religious sect or secret society with
several factions in existence.  What distinguishes the Templars from most
mercenary groups (apart from the noble connections) is their deep seated
beliefs in a particular cause, whether protecting favoured primative races,
promoting (enforcing) a particular religion, recovering ancient relics (the
holy grail of grandfather), etc.  Whatever the cause there is always an
element of self-sacrifice.  Imagine the Templars of old Earth.  They trapsed
for mile upon gruelling mile across Europe, taking what food they could,
laying siege to enemy strongholds, looting and pillageing the spoils of war
...and that was just Europe, it got a lot tougher when they crossed into the
holy land.  Our Imperial Templars are likely to be just as hardy and
dedicated to their cause.  Noble wealth isn't squandered as elsewhere in the
Imperium but used for secret underhand gains.  Whilst they truely believe
their cause is for the greater good of humaniti, their fanatisism prevents
them from understanding "the other side of the arguement", those on the
wrong side will be dealt with mercilessly.  

So far the Imperium has tolerated these fanatical excesses, however Cleon is
carefully monitoring the situation using his operatives within the various
factions to subvert the Templars goals to those of the Emperor.  Official
Imperial involvement is of course completely hushed up.  Romanticized
legendary / mythical stories spread through the Imperial "chattering
classes".

T>- - I'd say that rather than giving the Templars cushy bases on only the
T>best
T>planets (though I'd guess they have a couple of those :) ), that their
main
T>bases should be on very-low albedo hardened asteroids, often in otherwise
T>deserted systems -- maybe one or two are on moons orbiting worlds with TL0
T>natives on them, thus giving rise to the Protector semi-myth?

I agree their bases are not cushy.  These are hardened, driven people. 
Whilst they are not adverse to the occasional luxury they live relatively
spartan lives (for a noble).  Their citadels would be fairly small
emplacements but well defended and defensible.  A ground based Citadel may
have the look of Jabba's palace crossed with the rebel stronghold on Hoth
(OK minus the daft defense shield).  Orbital stations are another
possibiltiy.  Deserted systems are definately preferred (maybe in the
undetailed portion of First Survey).

T>And of course there are rumors, difficult to pin down even in the halls of
T>the Templar Citadels, that some among them are deeply placed Zhodani
spies,
T>while others are said to have dark designs on the Iridium Throne itself...

Now that's an excellent idea, some templar factions may also be based on
psionic teachings.  There could be other alien Templars as well.  Aslan
Templars could also fit the picture (I haven't got any info on the Aslan so
don't slate me if I've offended any of you Kat lovers :-) ).  

Prehaps these Aslan Templars are ihatei? (forgive the spelling).

T>Oooh, I like this. :)

It's definately got possibilities.  Has there been anything like this
discussed before on the list?, or published in previous adventures/JTAS
articles?.  Similarities might be drawn with those Star Viking types :-?

Jason Davies
- -- 
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you...always"

                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:03:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Terraforming

Leonard, I don't mean to be nit-picking -- I like your posts!  Just wanted
to address a few points here.  (And while we're at it, can we talk about
"icebergs" (G. "ice-mountains") rather than "iceburgs" (G. "ice-castles")?)

Quoth Leonard Erickson:
> Remember, Mars has icecaps. But they are mostly frozen CO2. The water
> is just a trace. 

Recent papers by Zubrin, Fogg, et al. have suggested that Mars may contain
significant amounts of subsurface permafrost.  We simply don't know, since
Viking decided to look for life instead of investigate the planet itself.
Here's hoping the next series of probes answers the question....
 
> Also, another reason for the "iceburg" approach would be something like
> Venus. They can help increase the rotation, and cool things a little. 

Marty Fogg, in a c. 1991 paper in JBIS re: terraforming Venus, did the
math for speeding up a planet via asteroid/cometary impacts and found it
woefully impractical (not to mention a waste of thousands of good
nickel-iron asteroids).  He actually found himself having to rig the
entire planet with cables to turn it into a squirrel-cage motor which took
power input to speed up rotation over tens of millenia.
 
Your point about needing small bodies as industrial feed-stock, whether
for solettas or shades, is a good one.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:08:34 +1100 (EST)
From: Solomani <solomani@aic.net.au>
Subject: Re: MegaTravller -> T4

On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Rob Gillingham wrote:

> actually if i remeber corectly... tl-16 was the highest in the imperium...
> and tl-25

The second part was what i thought (ancients had tl1-25) but the highest
Imperial Tech (pulling out book 3 scouts) Tl15 was rare Imperial tech, ie,
it was the cutting edge experimental stuff in Classic Traveller.

> was ancients..... based on Mega Traveller... but yes i agree i miss alot of
> those
> cool things found in CT and MT likes weapons etc.... maybe one day when
> the emperor's arsenal gets released will se some of our favorites...
> 

I have an article from Dragon magazine which described quite a few ancient
technologys in Traveller, including Disintergrators, Transporters and
various other devices.  I wonder if i still have it?

Peace,

michl

electric RAIN                      http://www.electric-rain.net/


Conflict is the habit of the ages.
Wars amputees sire children eager to mature and take their bloody turn at death.
The Singer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:14:55 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...

On Thu, 20 Mar 1997 02:43:20 -0800, you wrote:

>  All this talk about "How can this weapon outperform a modern anit-tank
> rifle in velocity?!@#$" is silly this is a TL-12 weapon.. We are =
talking
> *far future*(no pun, honest...)

Actually, we are talking about a weapon that was "power-built" using a
set of rules that many consider "broken" :)

While the tech may change, the physics will stay the same.  When
fired, the weapon (and therefore, the operator) would receive the same
amount of sudden kinetic energy as the projectile.  Most of the
applicable recoil compensators in the Traveller universe are designed
to vent the gases of traditional slug throwers, not reduce the
"electromagnetic recoil" created in gauss weapons (the stock recoil
systems cannot be used with this weapon, since it was designed to be
fired as a pistol).  The TL10 gyro stabilizer is designed to keep the
weapon steady (like the stabilization units on today's tanks), not
reduce felt recoil to any degree.  Even the TL14 inertial compensator
is designed to transfer the recoil (through a locked articulated arm)
to the user, not simply "make it go away".

What I see when someone designs a weapon such as this is one person's
need for a traditional slug thrower that can be fired one-handed and
makes a really BIG noise.  Someone like this is more interested in the
excitement of the sheer "power" or "energy" being harnessed and/or
manipulated, and less interested in designing an efficient weapon.  We
must assume some reasoning behind the progression to laser and
plasma/fusion weaponry in the Traveller universe.  While it may not be
as glamorous as the Dirty Harry "kicks like a mule" hand-cannon image,
there are far more efficient ways of using level 12 technology to kill
someone :)

>  As far as structeral integrity of the round, that is a valid concern, =
but
> who knows how strong TL-12 materials.. I've never seen any solid stress
> ratings on superdense myself.

Of course, the gauss projectile in FF&S isn't simply a solid piece of
superdense...  :)

We are also dealing with a conductor coil inside the projectile, which
completes the electrical circuit for the accelerator.  Pump too much
energy through these windings too quickly and the projectile will be
slag before it even starts to move.

Or, if you use a non-canon gauss weapon design (one that uses a set of
windings inside the barrel of the weapon instead of the projectile),
the heat build-up is now a severe problem within the weapon itself
(imagine the heat from your old slot car set hand controllers and
multiply it a thousand fold :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:11:59 -0800
From: Nicholas Wright <xgr52@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Shields 

Black Globe as cloaking device as attacker drifts into Enemy system.

The big problem is that you can=92t see out so how do you know what is ou=
t
there.

Try this solution:  Code name  Quarterback Sneak

Enter the system in your main craft.  Black globe off but far enough out
to avoid detection.

Kit up a small craft, e.g. cutter/shuttle/scout with a very large
passive array a mining laser and food and water.

Choose the direction of attack and set off at a speed that the small
craft can maintain without engines.  Switch on the Black globe.

The main ship drifts into the system with the small craft *very* close
behind it with the passive array poking around the edge of the bulk of
the black globe. =20

The small craft is the eyes, nose and decision maker for the large
craft.  How does it communicate its sights and decisions?

It taps on the black globe with the mining laser.  At higher techs the
laser could be fired in computer controlled pulses to deliver almost
realtime sensor readings to the larger ship=92s computers.

It is probably best to have the black globe ship designed in such a way
that when it gets time to fight deep in-system, you can drop the globe
and drive the small craft straight into its dock for safety.

Nick Wright

Pupil:  Eyes, Nose? and decision maker
Sensei:  Yes. To smell the Enemy=92s fear.
P:  You can smell fear?
S:  You=92re wearing the obsolete type of Battle Dress. Can=92t you smell
it?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:24:20 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Some world generation oddities...

     Well, I had some time to kill yesterday, so I finally got around to 
generating some worlds for my Gelath sector campaign-to-be.

     This was actually my first time using T4 for world generation (Hey, even I 
can't remember all of the TL modifiers!), and I noticed a couple of very 
small oddities.

     First of all, I guess because of T4s CT legacy atmosphere types D,E, and F 
were completely left out (those would be dense/high, ellipsoid and 
thin/low).

     Secondly, the quick chart telling what each tech level means hasn't been 
changed from CT either. They list TL9 = 1990s. I don't know about you, but 
I still haven't seen any 80s era TL8 gravcars.

     Lastly, they listed hydrosphere as 2D-7+Atmosphere. I remembered it as 
- -7+size, and sure enough that is how it was in CT. Was this changed in MT 
or TNE (being too lazy to dig either out).


BTW, M0 and FS finally came to my really F FNGS. I had them trained so well 
that as soon as I waled in the door, they handed it to me so I'd get off  
 their backs about when it would arrive.

ahhh yes. M0 is simply great.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:20:53 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Shields?

At 05:43 AM 3/20/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>And White Globes were introduced in MT. (I can't find and don't recall 
>earlier references to White Globes). The definition certainly didn't 
>change in FF&S.
>
>===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
>\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
> ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========
>
>

Having skipped Megatraveller entirely, seems a reasonable assertion.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:40:26 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Templars

At 10:36 PM 3/20/97 +0000, you wrote:
><snip>
>Now that's an excellent idea, some templar factions may also be based on
>psionic teachings.  There could be other alien Templars as well.  Aslan
>Templars could also fit the picture (I haven't got any info on the Aslan so
>don't slate me if I've offended any of you Kat lovers :-) ).  
>
><snip>
>
>It's definately got possibilities.  Has there been anything like this
>discussed before on the list?, or published in previous adventures/JTAS
>articles?.  Similarities might be drawn with those Star Viking types :-?
>
>Jason Davies
>-- 
>"Remember, the Amiga will be with you...always"
>
>                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight
>
>
Add the psionics and the Templars are starting to sound like Jedi knights.
Tilting Millieu 0 into Star Wars is starting to look easier and easier.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:38:26 -0500
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: System Defense Boat Design

Mark Clark wrote:

>
>  To provide context for the Mercenary Cruiser THUDD competition, I'm
>fooling around with some System Defense Boat designs.  I took as a
>starting point the Classic Traveller SDB from Supplement 7 - Traders and
>Gunboats.  Based on a 400T hull, the CT SDB has 6G performance, mounts two
>triple laser turrets and two triple missile turrets, and carries a crew of
>10.  There is extra cargo space for missiles.  The ship uses TL12
>technology.  Cost is about 775MCr.
[snippage]

     I've been bashing a SDB design around in my head, and I think I'll
put it into the Famille Spofulam product pipeline right after I get this
multi-barrel 18mm auto shotgun riot control weapon design done.  Basically,
I'm thinking about a cluster of 5 or so PA gun spinal mounts, a bunch of
lasers, a meson gun, and 6G; the sort of thing that you'd have for hunting
capital ships :).  Tentative class name is "Cauchemar".

     I've also been thinking about upgunning the Crescent-class customs
vessel I designed a while back into an SDB; leave in the 6G T-plates and 3G
HEPlaR auxiliary drive and just rip out the jump drive and put in more guns
(possibly a second PA gun if it can be made to fit >:)).  A wing of those
escorting a Cauchemar or two would give just about anybody a bad day, I
thinK :).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:34:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Living on antifreeze

Not trying to resurrect this thread since it was discussed in great detail
but I ran across an article in the Feb97 issue of Discover about the Apollo
Butterfly. The article's focus was about the radar tags used to track these
guys (interesting Trav application). It also mentioned how the pupae and the
eggs survive the winter in the Rocky Mountains, "Buried in the gravelly soil,
they replace the water in their bodies with glycerol, a substance also used
in antifreeze."

For more info try their web site: 
www.enews.com/magazines/discover

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:28:21 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Templars

At 01:40 AM 3/21/97 +0000, Garry Ward wrote:
>Add the psionics and the Templars are starting to sound like Jedi knights.
>Tilting Millieu 0 into Star Wars is starting to look easier and easier.

Wellll, maybe.  For my own purposes, I'd keep any psionics in the Templars
a verrrry deep secret.  And if they were to have these abilities to any
real degree, I wouldn't make them as obviously polarized as the Star Wars
Jedis.  There would probably be a few guru-like ones (ala Obi Wan or Yoda),
but these would be viewed as somewhat eccentric wise men by most of the
Templars, while those on the opposite end of the spectrum would be only
rumors... at least until they've amassed enough power to come out of
hiding. :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:51:33 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Re: Systematic psionics

Mike Sellers (msellers@ricochet.ne) writes:

>So what are your thoughts on this?  Have you fooled around much with
>psionics in your games other than as a rare NPC-used device?  Do you think
>it's better to leave Traveller "unsullied by such claptrap" (that's a quote
>from an old ref of mine :) )?  Or is it possible to include systematic
>psionics in a way that adds new dimensions to the game without removing its
>technologically inspired clarity?  This last is what I'm going for, but I'd
>like to hear others' thoughts.

Talk about a leading question, Mike. Sure it's "possible" to include
psionics in a hard SF setting, just very difficult. Larry Niven was able to
pull it off by including psionics very sparingly for only subtle effects,
like the mass indicator used in starships. Unfortunately, many referees
can't resist creating powerful psionic effects to force the campaign in a
certain direction or to threaten the players.

The members of the TML are a pretty elite group of Traveller players, IMHO,
yet I constantly see posts suggesting massive psionic overkill to deal with
problem players or adventure dead-ends. The same idea occurs even more
quickly to novice referees. The problem is that this idea unbalances the
game, puts the players and referee in an adversarial situation, and only
encourages players to become even more ruthless (by using preemptive
strikes, getting their own psionic powers, or figuring how to turn the
powerful psionics against their enemies). I'm speaking from experience; my
first campaign in High School included a starship full of
radiation-induced-psionic mutants. I devised my own rules for psionics
which unbalanced the game so much that about half my players wanted to be
mutants. I'm not saying it was a bad campaign, it just wasn't a Third
Imperium campaign.

Another problem is that the more psionics gets used the more trite and
cliche it becomes. For example, psionic monsters have been overused to a
ridiculous extent and I think IG should automatically reject any adventures
that include them. It also becomes a short-cut adventure; why bother
thinking of a plot when you can just throw the psionic monster of the week
against the players?

For an example of what I mean, consider the recent thread about the referee
complaining his genocidal players exterminated an entire TL 0 village
because the natives threw some spears at them or something. Sure enough,
right away someone posted suggesting the referee create some TL 0
mega-psionic-mages to toast the players. The most likely outcomes of this
tactic are:

1: Players exterminate any suspicious-looking TL 0 characters BEFORE they
get a chance to throw anything at them.

2: Players kidnap or extort psionic-mages as living weaponry, turning the
campaign into Dungeons & Travellers (R)(TM).

Later, someone else came up with the idea of a secret society of nobles
sworn to protect the galaxy from riff-raff, or so they claim. This idea has
far more dramatic and play-balance potential.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you create a sourcebook for
"systematic psionics", referees are going to use it. This makes it
important to keep the new rules play-balanced and avoid the urge to
'improve' on the existing psionic powers, which are in my opinion already
quite powerful.

I am not against the idea of including psionics in a campaign, in fact I
have it in my campaign. However, its effects are very random and subtle.
For example, in one adventure the players had to figure out if a fire
team's surprising defeat was because of psionics, chemical attack, or just
bad leadership. Making psionic effects ambiguous and rare is the best way
of keeping them mysterious.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 04:49:59 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Wulfen SDB

> The Wulfen is a 100td Airframe hull that offers maxium speed 6g.
> It can quickly chase down its prey in both atmosphere and vacuum.

     TL-12 inertial compensators can nullify the effects of 3G
     acceleration, and during atmospheric maneuvers the peak 
     G-forces may rise very high...

     Is Wuflen equipped with G-Tanks?


        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:26:34 -0500
From: Jeff Harvey <jharvey@nlci.com>
Subject: skills

I have instituted a rule for my PC's, based on what they desire as a
change to their skills.  This is based on TNE.  

The rule is:  all skills at +1 are two difficulty levels harder, all
skills at +2 are one difficulty level harder, at +3 everything goes back
to normal.  
     
     They wanted their experience as PC's to be a little more meaningful. 
It seemed reasonable to me, but if anyone has more insight into this I'd
be happy to hear it.

Also, I'm still looking for rules for CLONES in TNE.  I'd appreciate any
help that you can give.

                         Jeff Harvey

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:04:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: skills

 
> The rule is:  all skills at +1 are two difficulty levels harder, all
> skills at +2 are one difficulty level harder, at +3 everything goes back
> to normal.  
>    
>    They wanted their experience as PC's to be a little more meaningful. 
> It seemed reasonable to me, but if anyone has more insight into this I'd
> be happy to hear it.

This is a great idea, though I'd add one thing...  If you think that
a given task is normally done by a skill-4 person, bump it all up a
notch, 2 notches if it normally takes a skill-5 person, etc..

I wish they had supported Diff-Level changes in addition to DMs in
T4 since it gives you a lot more options, and makes on the fly task
assignment easier.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:09:00 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy

>Isn't there some evidence of a 65 million year extinction cycle?  Here
>we have 66 million years from peak to trough. Maybe there *is* something
>about being too far from the galactic plane!
>
>Eris

Old theory but it is not being far from the galactic plane that is
dangerous but being close to it. When inside the galactic plane there are
lots of stars that pass close and those stars may perturb comets in Oorts
cloud that will come crashing into the solar system and some may hit earth
and kill off dinosaurs et c.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:40:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Black Globes and J-space

One of my PC's brought up an interesting point.

If you have the Black Globe on, sucking in energy and shunting it into the 
capacitors, then use the capacitors to power the j-grid and then jump, what 
happens, and how does the j-field and the black globe field interact?

The main point involved using the Black Globe to shield the ship from a 
planet's gravity well, he argued that gravity is just another form of 
energy, so at 10-100 diams it could suck gravitons and power the j-grid and 
jump, and the ship would be safe from the effects of the gravity well.

I am confused, I like this idea, and yet game ballance tells me to say the 
gravitons are so many that it would overload the caps and make ship go boom, 
now a white globe might be able to pull this off :)

Also I have read something in the MT Starships O.M. that densitomiters are 
grav sheilded, is it possible to grav shield a ship and therefore allow safe 
jumping at closer than 100 diams?

I hate it when sly PC's get crazy ideas into their heads! :)

From the Commander at the office
(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 09:38:44 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Thrusters

Bruce wrote:
>A 2G thruster drive is a *lot* more expensive than a 1G thruster drive +
>standard CG. Most merchant ships only need a 1G drive in space - the
>reduced time-to-100-diameters from 2G is negligible. The only time they need
>extra acceleration is taking off and landing; for those purposes, a CG
>set is a good cost-effective buy.

I have never liked this suggestion that Thruster Plates can only thrust
in one direction.  This might be an assumption in QSDS, but it is not
in SSDS.  SSDS doesn't talk about this at all.  Its really annoying
that people are talking about basic definitions after the rules have
been published.  

Anyway, I don't buy the argument, if ships with thrusters can only
thrust in one direction, how do they evade in combat.  The entire
combat system assumes, that ships make small turns, and jinx around, to
decrease their chance of getting hit. If you suppose that ships have
small thruster plates installed around the ship to allow them to do
this, then they should be able to use them to fly around a planet.  If
you suggest that ships have some other sort of micro rockets, this is
never mentioned in any of the design sequences. 

I like the idea as presented in SSDS, that contra-grav and Thrusters
plates, do the same thing, just contra-grav doesn't work outside of a
planet's gravity well.  


Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is yellow, smooth and deadly?
A:Shark infested pudding.

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1095
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 21 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1096



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Shields?
Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...
Re: Black Globes and J-space
Re: Thrusters
Re: Size of the galaxy
Re: Size of the galaxy
Re: skills
Templars
Re: skills
Re: Solomani Rim Reconnaissance
Re: Net software woes
Re: Martial Arts
Re: Here's what I want to see.
TNE Stuff
Re: digest index
Re: Size of the galaxy
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1095
Ship to Ship Combat (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:26:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shields?

In mail you write:

> I've never assumed that. To me a flickering Black Globe is just that: a 
> Flickering Black Globe. A White Globe has always been a "one way" Black 
> Globe. Energy can leave when it's on, but never enter. Black Globes are 
> introduced at TL-15, White Globes at TL-20.
>
> Quoth MegaTraveller Referee's Manual, page 80:
> "White globes restrict any projectile or beam from contacting the craft 
> while still allowing the occupants to see out and to use sensors without 
> restriction."

Slight problem. To "see out" whether with eyes or sensors requires that
the radiation being used be allowed to travell *in*. As an example, if
light can only go out, but not in, then you cannot *see* from the
inside, but if there's enough illumination of the ship inside the
globe, people outside can see it! But a laser won't hit.

So it *cannot* be possible to "see out of" a white globe. You can send
signals out, you just can't receive.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:19:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...

In mail you write:

>
> What I see when someone designs a weapon such as this is one person's
> need for a traditional slug thrower that can be fired one-handed and
> makes a really BIG noise.  Someone like this is more interested in the
> excitement of the sheer "power" or "energy" being harnessed and/or
> manipulated, and less interested in designing an efficient weapon.  We
> must assume some reasoning behind the progression to laser and
> plasma/fusion weaponry in the Traveller universe.  While it may not be
> as glamorous as the Dirty Harry "kicks like a mule" hand-cannon image,
> there are far more efficient ways of using level 12 technology to kill
> someone :)

More efficient isn't *always* a good idea. I recall a story where the
protagonist was field testing a new weapon. It damn near got him killed
because it was *too* efficient.

It was a sort of disintegrator. That is, you point it at something and
everything in fair sized conical volume quietly goes away. How did this
almost get him killed? Easy. Animals didn't have any reason to connect
the stuff vanishing with the person. So they were spooked, but not
afraid of *him*. Not a good combo.


> Of course, the gauss projectile in FF&S isn't simply a solid piece of
> superdense...  :)
>
> We are also dealing with a conductor coil inside the projectile, which
> completes the electrical circuit for the accelerator.  Pump too much
> energy through these windings too quickly and the projectile will be
> slag before it even starts to move.
>
> Or, if you use a non-canon gauss weapon design (one that uses a set of
> windings inside the barrel of the weapon instead of the projectile),
> the heat build-up is now a severe problem within the weapon itself
> (imagine the heat from your old slot car set hand controllers and
> multiply it a thousand fold :)

Actually, any man portabable "gauss" weapon is *not* going to be using
coils. They'll be "railguns" not linacs.

A linac (linear accelerator) has a set of coils that get energized in
sequence so that the coils ahead of the projectile pull it and the ones
behind it push it. They are siometimes also refferred to as "coil guns".

This works great for mass drivers, but works *lousy* for even light
artillery. That's why most real world designs are railguns.

A railgun has *no* coils. And no switching circuitry. That along
simplifies it greatly.

What it has is a magnetic field (which can be supplied by "permanent"
magnets, as it never needs to change polarity). The field lines run
"vertical". That is, the "north" pole is "above" the barrel and the
"south" pole is "below" it.

There are also a pair of "rails" running the length of the barrel. They
carry DC voltage and can carry a *very* high current. The projectile
shorts across the rails. The result is that the current flowing left to
right in the "up" magnetic field produces a reaction force pushing it
"out" (forward). 

The force is constant and depends solely on the current flow and the
intensity of the magnetic field. Thus you get a constant, high
acceleration. 

I've seen a projectile intended for use in such a railgun. It was 2 cm
square by about half a cm thick. It was some sort of fiber reinforced
glass or plastic. The fibers were conductive. They couldn't use metal
because it deformed too much under the acceleration and jammed.

They were using superconducting magnets and a few meters of rail. I
suspect that for a "rifle" you'd go for higher currents so as to be
able to use "regular" permanent magnets. This limits the acceleration,
but it ought to still be pretty good (If we can find a source for the
magnets, I and a friend may try building one using the sort of magenets
you see advertised as "lift 200 pounds").

As you can see, a railgun is so simple that the military would love it.
A couple of long, narrow magnetic plates with a solid seperator, a
barrel drilled through the seperator, a couple of metal rails embedded
in the sides of the barrel. Plus a projectile feed and a power source. 

Pull the trigger and it feeds a "dart" into the "receiver" and pushes
it forward until it engages the rails. At that point, the current
starts and "zap"! The projectile zooms down the barrel. once the
current stops, that unlocks things to allow another dart to feed.

The magnet/spacer/rail assembly that makes up the barrel is not going
to need any maintenance other than running something thru the barrel to
clean out anything that might make a dart "stick". And the feed &
trigger assembly ought to be pretty simple as well. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:03:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Globes and J-space

On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Bill Prankard wrote:
> 
> I am confused, I like this idea, and yet game ballance tells me to say the 
> gravitons are so many that it would overload the caps and make ship go boom, 
> now a white globe might be able to pull this off :)
> 
> Also I have read something in the MT Starships O.M. that densitomiters are 
> grav sheilded, is it possible to grav shield a ship and therefore allow safe 
> jumping at closer than 100 diams?
> 
> I hate it when sly PC's get crazy ideas into their heads! :)

Well...this is a prime example of exactly WHY PC's shouldn't get ahold of
such powerful toys!

The problem is NOT the effect of gravity upon the ship, but of gravity
upon the space in the vicinity of the ship, ie: jumping out where space is
at the curvature produced at less than 100 diameters produces
unstabilizing effects upon the transition to jump space. Now if your PC's
have a black globe that, saaay is the 100 diameter radius, well, they
could do that.

      But this puts me in mind of some teenage D&D player
bragging about his 64th level fighter/magic user defeating a god in single
combat...the game isn't quite balanced any more ;-)

     If your PC's do this anyway, make up a rule, like the use of black
globes in such a fashion triggers Grandfathers sensors in this universe,
and he comes back out, and takes the dangerous toys away from the little
hairless apes he infested this universe with. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:26:59 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Thrusters

At 09:38 am 03/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Bruce wrote:
>>A 2G thruster drive is a *lot* more expensive than a 1G thruster drive +
>>standard CG. Most merchant ships only need a 1G drive in space - the
>>reduced time-to-100-diameters from 2G is negligible. The only time they need
>>extra acceleration is taking off and landing; for those purposes, a CG
>>set is a good cost-effective buy.
>
>I have never liked this suggestion that Thruster Plates can only thrust
>in one direction.  This might be an assumption in QSDS, but it is not
>in SSDS.  SSDS doesn't talk about this at all.  Its really annoying
>that people are talking about basic definitions after the rules have
>been published.  

     SSDS didn't really talk about it; it was more of an unspoken assumption.
>Anyway, I don't buy the argument, if ships with thrusters can only
>thrust in one direction, how do they evade in combat.

     Simple--you change the direction the ship is pointing using the attitude
control system, which, for simplicity, is ignored in the design sequence.

     Some people have been going with the Starship Operator's Manual
suggestion, which I kind of like, that thrust plates work 100% in the right
direction, but you can slew the thrust if you're willing to give up some
efficiency. In other words, if you thrust straight front-to-back, the
output is 100%. If you thrust perpendicular to that, you get only 25%
output. And if you put it into reverse, you only get 10% output.

     Along with that went the idea that you could "overdrive" the thrusters for
very short (seconds to minutes) periods of time. So if you want to land
your Free Trader without having to stand it on its tail, by hovering
laterally, your engineer is down there in the engine room babying the
drives to 400% output. He can only do this for a few minutes before it go
BOOM!, but now you can direct 1G worth of thrust down the belly to land.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:48:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy

Quoth Joseph "Chepe" Lockett:
> FWIW, I believe the closest Pop II star to Sol is Arcturus -- its space
> velocity suggests it's a cometary halo object (lots of II's there),
> "passing through" the galactic disk.

Make that "galactic halo object."  Ergh.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:32:42 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy

I'd like a copy of it please.  Email is fine.

Eric

- ----------
> From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy
> Date: Tuesday, March 18, 1997 3:23 PM
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
> > 
> > Someone in HIWG put a very nice galactic map on a web site.  It prints
out as an 8.5in x
> > 11in sheet of paper.  The galactic core is at the top of the page, and
the rim is at the
> > bottom.  Known space is a very, very small square in the bottom third
of the page.  The
> > Zhodani core expeditions are a very, very thin line running up to just
above the center
> > of the page.  I'm sorry, I don't have the URL, but maybe someone from
HIWG (where I'm
> > cross-posting this) will post it.
> 
> If not, I have that image and will send it to whoever asks for it.
> -- 
> Erwin Fritz
> Unix/NT/LAN Guy
> Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
> http://www.glja.com
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:28:51 -0500
From: Jeff Harvey <jharvey@nlci.com>
Subject: Re: skills

Merrick Burkhardt-

This is a great idea, though I'd add one thing...  If you think that
a given task is normally done by a skill-4 person, bump it all up a
notch, 2 notches if it normally takes a skill-5 person, etc..

     I don't want to get into assiging tasks to specific characters. That's
too much trouble for me.  They wanted the rule.  I included it, but I
wanted it to be simple and across the board.  The problem arose when one
character with an 8 EDU spent his careers focusing on computers and
spent 7 skill points on them giving him an asset of 15.  Another
character spent his careers in Under-grad and grad schools and ended up
with a 14 EDU.  Now if he learns a computer skill (which he hasn't taken
yet) he will be equal with the guy who spent 7 points on computers. 
They didn't think that this was a fair rule.  So we instituted the +1,
+2 rule.  Thanks for your insight.

                              Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:09:30 -0500
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Templars

Jason Davies wrote:
It's definately got possibilities.  Has there been anything like this
discussed before on the list?, or published in previous adventures/JTAS
articles?.  Similarities might be drawn with those Star Viking types :-?


I thought that Fred Saberhagen's Templars fighting off Beserkers sounded
like the Virus to me, so I made up a group of the same name for my
TNE campaign.  I posted it to the TML a while back, it is on my web
page if you want to see it.

Lewis

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:29:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: skills

 
> a given task is normally done by a skill-4 person, bump it all up a
> notch, 2 notches if it normally takes a skill-5 person, etc..
> 
>    I don't want to get into assiging tasks to specific characters. That's
> too much trouble for me.  They wanted the rule.  I included it, but I

I would just do it across the board on  a task by task basis, nothing
to keep track of.  So a surgery task of brain surgery might require
a skill of Medical-4 (or 5) for a normal task.  Your PC medic would
do such a task at a harder diff level as you suggested (say she's
med-1, the task would be 3 or 4 diff-levels harder than the PC who
is a surgeon).

This would work for any skills you care to use.  It's just a
guideline for  you to assign tasks with is all.

I just use something like that to get a feel for how hard a task
_should_ be.  I think we're on the same page here, actually :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 19:53 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Reconnaissance

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970314170601.4164C-100000@supreme>

<< I remember the rationale for the Zhodani Core Expeditions - an Ancient 
artifact callin' them home - but did anybody explain why the Solomani 
would have gone to the effort of exploring out towards the rim? 
Especially so _far_ ! >>

You are not cleared for that information. Fnord.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 19:52 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Net software woes

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970314020242.006a7b10@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>

<< > Let's not forget that this is *BILL GATES* we're talking about!
>We've got to make sure!  I say we go for a bigger rock!
>

It'll never work, remember he's got lawyers who can stop rocks at 30K km,
and failing that will buy the rights for rock dropping from under you. >>

:-)
I'll have to remember that one.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 19:53 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Martial Arts

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970315065522.6598A-100000@pill.Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>

<< REAL MEN: Believe in the art of 'ching-chunk' (sound of SMG being cocked)

ROLE PLAYERS: Believe in the art of 'Shumasshi-Voorshin' (the ancient
Vilani 'Left Little Finger of Death') 

LOONIES: Believe in the art of 'Chigga Chigga BRRaaaap braap braap' (sound
of a 38" bar 125 CC two stroke chainsaw starting..."Shop Smart...Shop
S-Mart!")

MUNCHKINS: Believe in the art of 'click' (Power switch on their
FGMP-15..the Munchkin's universal answer to life, the universe and
everything) >>

A PC in a game I was in fitted a pump-action to his FGMP-15 - it didn't do 
anything, but it let him cock it dramatically...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 19:52 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970314183954.00cfa208@mail.pcisys.net>

<< >1. Not being able to play in the services, why characters must be 
>retired hasbeens has never really made sense to me.

 Huh? Who wrote you can't play in the service? I've always interpreted
"mustering out" or "failing" survival roll as the end of character
generation. Doesn't mean the character actually left, that's just where the
game starts. When I needed a navy crew, I generated them until they were at
the appropriate rank and experience for their position, and then started
playing. So if you want to play a Naval Commander, generate the character,
and go for it! >>

For my next campaign, I'm thinking of having the PCs start as Navy/Marines, 
fresh out of training (Traveller: Above and Beyond, anyone?)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:02:50 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: TNE Stuff

If anybody's interested, I went by a local gaming store today and
discovered a stack'o'TNE stuff:

     2 Battle Rider boxes
     2 Brilliant Lances boxes
     1 Deluxe TNE box
     Path of Tears
     Guilded Lilly
     Vikings
     Player's Forms
     Survival Margin

Email me privately at goldendj@pcisys.net if you're interested in me
picking something up for you.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:49:15 +1200
From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: digest index

Has any subscriber to this list been keeping a running index of material 
contained in these digests. Much of the issues discussed and the 
potentially useful material offered quickly gets out of easy reach 
because the volume of the information flow. 

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:01:21 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Size of the galaxy

Leonard Erickson says,

>In mail you write:
>> But the inter-arm 'rifts' are full of stars like our own. As I understand
>> it, these zones are not much less dense than our local region, in terms of
>> older Population I stars. So in theory you could jump from star to star
>> across the inter-arm zones just as easily as across the Orion arm.
>
>Well, sort of. Population I stars will *only* have gas giants as
>planets, and they'll be almost pure hydrogren/helium. This requires
>skimming, and I'm not all that sure that you'd find GGs often enough to
>refuel.

Leonard, I'm shocked. You're the last person I'd expect to get the
nomenclature backwards. "Population I" stars are the younger,
second-generation stars - like our own, which contain heavier elements.
"Population II" stars are the ancient, red, first-generation stars, which
are almost pure hydrogen and helium.

It *is* confusing though; the astronomers named things the wrong way
'round. But I suppose they came up with the terms before there was a
coherent theory of star evolution, so they didn't know that the Population
II stars were the first generation.

Of course, I made a mistake myself in the posting quoted above: I said the
inter-arm regions were not much less dense than the arms, in terms of
Population I stars - which is true; but I shouldn't have brought the
Population I/II distinction into it - it's really not relevant here. What I
meant to say was that the arms are dense with very young, bright, hot
stars, the O and B types, and it's these that are relatively rare in the
inter-arm zones. Because they don't survive long enough to orbit into those
areas; they tend to go supernova not long after they leave their birth
regions, well before they leave the spiral arms.

Ah well. Nobody's prefect!

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:01:07 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1095

On 21-Mar-97, Mike Sellers wrote:

MS>At 01:40 AM 3/21/97 +0000, Garry Ward wrote:
MS>>Add the psionics and the Templars are starting to sound like Jedi
knights.
MS>>Tilting Millieu 0 into Star Wars is starting to look easier and easier.

MS>Wellll, maybe.  For my own purposes, I'd keep any psionics in the
Templars
MS>a verrrry deep secret.  And if they were to have these abilities to any
MS>real degree, I wouldn't make them as obviously polarized as the Star Wars
MS>Jedis.  There would probably be a few guru-like ones (ala Obi Wan or
Yoda),
MS>but these would be viewed as somewhat eccentric wise men by most of the
MS>Templars, while those on the opposite end of the spectrum would be only
MS>rumors... at least until they've amassed enough power to come out of
MS>hiding. :)

Prehaps I should've included that in my post.  Psionics are extremely rare
in the Traveller universe, I was maybe thinking of a handful of people with
psionic ability but certainly not Jedi's.  There is no all-powerful force,
just "simple tricks and nonsense".  These templars aren't good or evil and
they don't have to fear the dark side.  When it all boils down these
templars are just mercenaries with an added twist or two.  

They don't have to pound out of control players into the ground they just
follow there own agenda (which doesn't necessarily include protecting TL-0
races - that was just a suggestion as was psionics).  I like this Templar
idea, think of it as another vehicle towards differing the style of
adventure, instead of a military style game politics, espionage, or mystery
could be emphasised.

Jason Davies
- -- 
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you...always"

                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:31:13 -0500
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Ship to Ship Combat (Long)

STS Combat
Awhile ago I wrote:
>>Ship Combat
>>I have developed a basic/simple ship to ship combat system using a mix
>>of several rules. However, the best part is what I borrowed from the
>>miniatures game "Harpoon." Damage that builds over time and critical
>>hits that knock major systems out. You get more critical hits depending
>>on the amount of damage taken in one turn.

And someone replied:
Could you  please post this variant for the rest of us?

Here are the basics=85 as the rules are not on file, and I use my own
system to figure out task, I will not post all the details. I have read
the RPSC v0.9 rules posted by Wildstar & Co. Very good set of rules, and
I will be using some for my version 5.0.  I post this in the hopes that
someone will find something they like and can use.=20

Bobs Basic Ship Combat System v4.9
Assumptions: I like ease of play. And I like detail. And I am not a gear
head with time to redesign ships every time Traveller changes systems.
In my big book of ships I have designs from Starships through High Guard
through MT through TNE. I have not played around with any of the ships
from T4. Lack of time. What this means is that any ship design can work
if I take a little time to convert the design into some basic stats. My
ships have Hit Points and my weapons do damage.=20

Conversions:=20
Figure out a ships hit points:=20
I use spreadsheet to do all of my calculations for me, but here are the
basics:

Hit Points (HP) =3D Integer (Square root of ship tonnage)  X (base 10
logarithm of ship tonnage)
=20
I think that is right. Here is an example of the results for basic
tonnage values:
Tons      HP
100  20
200  32
400  52
800  82
1600 128
3200 198
6400 304
12800     464
25600     705
51200     1065
102400    1603
=20
Tonnage doubles each time just to show the difference in hit points. As
you can see this calulation flattens the curve.

Now we need to figure out the effects of TL, Armor and Structure. I add
or subtract % points depending on a base.=20

Technology: In my game I figure tech 11 is about average, so that equals
one. For every tech above add ~10% to the HP values, reduce  by ~10% for
each tech level below.=20

Armor: What ever the base value is (for MT that is a 40) I add 1% for
each value above.

Structure: +/- 10-15 percent based on  type of hull. For example a open
frame would be -15%, Buffered asteroid +15%.

More examples:
1000 ton 1000 ton
TL8-15    TL12
AV40 AV40-85
68   103
77   115
85   128
94   141
103  154
111  167
120  205
128  218

On the left is a 1000 ton ships hit point from TL 8-15. Hit points go
from 68 to almost double at 128. The armor on the right has more of an
impact. Feel free to play around with the percentages if you think they
are too high.=20

Build a quick spreadsheet and enter the values and, presto, you have
damage points. I break the hit points into separate categories: Light
damage: 25%  Medium: 50%  Heavy: 75%  Critical: 90%  and Destroyed:
100%. Maneuver and Jump capability is reduced as damage reaches each
level. I usually apply the same present to drive numbers and round to
nearest. In addition cost and timing factors for repair is tied to each
level.

Now we to figure out the weapon factors. Simple. I base it on the High
Guard figures. Factors ranging from 1-A and spinal mounts A - ??.

Game Play:

1. Determine Range: Any system will work. Here is an updated one I did
quickly. =20
=20
1D Roll   Range
0, or less     V. Short
1    Short
2    Short
3    Medium
4    Medium
5    Long
6    Long
7+   Very Long

Friendly Condition       Modifier
Active Sensors           +1
Passive Sensors               --
Running Cold             -1

Target Condition         Modifier
Active Sensors           +2
EM Masking               -1
Running Cold             -2
V. Small Target (1-99 tons)             -1
Small Target (100-999 tons)             --
Medium Target (1000-99Ktons)            +1
Large Target (100Ktons+)           +2

Black Globes:=09
Flickering     +3
Full on   +2

If only one ship detects the other, you may have suprize. Sometimes the
PC can change their status and escape detection.

After range I use task rolls to determine if a PC ship can open or close
range.=20
For example =20
Both want to open or close: Easy Task, move one range band.
Competitive roll if one wants to open vs close: Difficult.
If the roll fails range stays the same.
Modifiers are difference in maneuver drives used, sensor technology,
etc.

Some G points can be used for evasion if so desired. Agility acts as the
skill in my game.

I like to have more interaction in my games so I tend to use a open
ended system. This allows me to shape the results slightly and balance
play.

However, I like detail. And damage is where that comes in.=20
The RPSC system seems like a good place to figure out your to hit task.
I use my house system, but I am playing around with Kv2.0 for task
rolls. (keep up the good work Ken)

If you hit, roll 1D6 on the chart below. Weapon factor is across the
top.


1D6   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   A+   Spinal
0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   10   12   28
1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   10   12   14   32
2   3   4   5   6   7   8   10   12   14   16   44
3   4   5   6   7   8   10   12   14   16   22   60
4   5   6   7   8   10   12   14   16   22   30   80
5   6   7   8   10   12   14   16   22   30   40   104
6   7   8   10   12   14   16   22   30   40   52   132
7   8   10   12   14   16   22   30   40   52   66   164
8   10   12   14   16   22   30   40   52   66   82   200
9   12   14   16   22   30   40   52   66   82   100   240
10   14   16   22   30   40   52   66   82   100   120   320

Modify the die role by the range and weapon type from the chart below:

Range     Beams     Missiles  Hi Energy Meson Gun Part. Acc.
Boarding  +2   +2   +4   +4   +2
Very Short     +1   +2   +4   +4   +2
Short     0    +2   +1   +4   +1
Medium    0    +2   -2   +4   -1
Long -2   +2   -4   +4   -2

Spinal mounts do their Factor * 10 in additional damage. Example: a
factor G =3D 160 additional points.

BOOM. The weapon hits, figure damage, and now we see if we got any
critical hits.

Figure out the damage ration:
Damage Ratio: Total Damage received in a turn is divided by the
remaining damage points.=09
Ratio =3D Damage received that turn divided by (Damage remaining - Damage
received that turn)

That gives you a ratio. Apply that ratio to the chart below:

Ratio\Die 1    2    3    4    5    6
Less than .1   0    0    0    0    0    0
.1   0    0    0    0    0    1
.2   0    0    0    0    1    2
.3   0    0    0    1    2    3
.4   0    0    1    2    3    4
.5   0    1    2    3    4    5
.6   1    2    3    4    5    6
.7   2    3    4    5    6    7
.8   3    4    5    6    7    8
.9   4    5    6    7    8    9
1.0  5    6    7    8    9    10
1.1  6    7    8    9    10   11
1.2  7    8    9    10   11   12
1.3  8    9    10   11   12   13

Roll the number as critical hits. (ouch!)
1D6  COMBAT SHIP         MERCHANT SHIP=09
0    Weapon Mount        Cargo=09
1    Cargo/Hanger        Cargo/Hanger=09
2    Engineering         Engineering=09
3    Weapon Mount        Weapon Mount =09
4    Fire/Radiation leak      Fire/Radiation leak=09
5    Control Spaces      Control Spaces=09
6    J-Drive             J-Drive=09
Modifiers: -1 if non-jump capable ship (e.g. an SDB)             =09

Apply the results:

Cargo/Hanger=09
Cargo: Wrecks cargo hold. Tons Destroyed =3D DT (total damage received
divided by the number of critical hits that turn)                                    =09
Hanger: Wrecks hangers. Small: Roll for each vehicle and determine
damage, Large: DT in tons destroyed                                        =09
Labs: The lab or sickbay is severely damaged, and its benefits are lost
until it is repaired.                                       =09
Shops: The shop is severely damaged, and its benefits are lost until it
is repaired.                                      =09
Control Spaces=09
Bridge: Command, astrogation and maneuvering crew are injured or killed.
The ship may not maneuver or jump.                                    =09
Combat Information Center: Many of the ship's sensor operators and
command personnel are injured or killed, and the sensor processors are
wrecked. No sensors or jammers may be operated; lose all current sensor
tracks.                                      =09

Fire Control: Master fire directors are knocked off-line, and many of
the gunners are injured or killed. No weapons may fire under central
control, no screens may be operated. In-flight missiles controlled by
these MFDs "go stupid" and miss.                                      =09
Flight Operations: Flight operations room has been hit, many of the
fighter directors are injured or killed, communications equipment has
been damaged. May not  launch or recover carried craft, and it lose
communication with inflight craft                                =09
Engineering=09
Maneuver drive: Drops off line; the ship may not maneuver or otherwise
expend MP until it is repaired. Due to the damage the drive has
sustained, the ship's maneuver is reduced 1 until repaired                                     =09
Power plant: Drops off-line; may not maneuver until damage control
brings the drive back online.  Emergency power is available, so the ship
may fire missiles and sandcasters, and operate Passive sensors at a -1
DM.                                     =09
Fuel management system: Effects: (DT) of ship's fuel is lost to space or
unavailable. If 100% fuel treat as PP destroyed.                                     =09
Artificial Gravity: Artificial gravity system inoperative. No gravity or
inertial compensation within the ship.                                     =09
Every MP expended -1 DM for all tasks; No evasion possible                                     
=09
Life Support: The ship will become uninhabitable, except to personnel
wearing vacc suits, in 2d6 hours.                                     =09
Fire/Radiation leak =09
Fire: Apply 10% of damage points until extinguished                                       =09
Radiation Leak: Engineering space uninhabitable until repaired. No
damage control in that area                                      =09
J-Drive=09
Jump drive: Drops off-line; cannot jump until damage control brings the
drive back online. Jump range is reduced 1 parsec per hit with +1 DM for
misjump per hit until the drive is repaired.                                    =09
Weapon Mount   =09
Weapon Mount: One battery disabled. This hit may include screens and
other defensive weaponry.                                        =09

Randomly determine sub categories for the different items.=20

Go back and redetermine range: Damage, etc. Until someone gets away. I
also use a task to perform a evasion move, depending on the range.
Example: Long is average, short is impossible.=20

I envision combat and detection to be like sub hunting. Long and boring
broken up by sheer terror.


Long, but I hop this helps. If you are interested in more detail, e-mail
me.

Bob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1096
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 22 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1097



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Falling Anvils and stuff
Re: Templars
Re: Templars
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1096
Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...
Really a Test
Re: THUDDD Votes (March)
Re: Ideas for new toys
Traveller on IRC
Traveller PBeM
Re: Cloning
Re:Kafers in Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:36:04 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mark James Wilkin <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Falling Anvils and stuff

All this talk of orbital bombardment using crowbars and anvils had me 
thinkmof the possible stratigic escalation that will inevitably happen 
with such weapons. You'll go onto high velocity death by falling fridge 
and falling pianos. Then the quantum leap your enemy will unleash the 
ultimate weapon the Safe, which you then reply to with 15 ton weights 
(with 15 tons written on them) where will it all end?

*** "*Thwap* My life needs a rewind/erase button"           ***
***                                          Calvin and Hobbes  ***
*** Mark James Wilkin                                           ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:24:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Templars

> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:36:46 -0000
> From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
>
> Whatever the cause there is always an
> element of self-sacrifice.  Imagine the Templars of old Earth.  They trapsed
> for mile upon gruelling mile across Europe, taking what food they could,
> laying siege to enemy strongholds, looting and pillageing the spoils of war
> ...and that was just Europe, it got a lot tougher when they crossed into the
> holy land.

I've been following this Templar discussion with some interest, as I am a
Grand Lodge officer of Ordo Templi Orientis, a group whose name and
symbolism derives from the Knights Templar.  Thus, I feel it incumbent on
me to set the record straight.

The Knights Templar were founded in the Holy Land, circa AD 1108, by a
group of 11 French knights and nobles.  Their stated purpose was to guard
pilgrims in the Holy Land.  The King of Outremer (Baldwin II, as I recall)
granted them quarters on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the site of King
Solomon's Temple (hence the name they chose for their order).

Throughout the 12th century the Templars gained numbers, power, and
influence.  They were renowned as extraoridnary fighters.  At a time when
most European 'armies' were semi-organized mobs, they were a coordinated,
tightly drilled force of highly trained warriors, who knew how to employ
both tactical and strategic analysis to win encounters in which they were
massively outnumbered.

There are very persistent myths, which originated as the Templars gained
in prestige, that the knights of this order were secretly initiated into
Saracen (Arab) religious mysteries, perhaps even those of the Assassins. 
This was in all likelihood the sort of wild rumor that attaches to any
powerful and secretive group, but there are shreds of historical evidence
which support the idea.  By the way, the original Knights of the Grail
myth, Parsifal, was inspired when the author (blanking on the name, sorry)
saw Templars in action at a siege near Cairo.

When the Kingdom of Jerusalem was overrun by the Saracens, the Templars
found themselves without an (official) purpose.  They had massive wealth,
and well-fortified keeps near most major European trade centers.  They
became quasi-mercenaries, and also bankers(!), inventing the first crude
checking-account system (deposit gold at Templar fort A, get encoded
certificate, withdraw it at Templar fort B).

In time, the Templars became truly staggeringly wealthy, attracting the
avarice and fear of European nobility and high clergy.  King Phillip of
France finally crushed the Templars and siezed their assets in a sudden,
brutal campaign, killing many members of the Order (including the Grand
Master) and forcing the rest to flee or go into hiding.  Tracking where
these latter knights ended up has been one of the most popular conspiracy
theorist games for the last five centuries; the Masons and Rosicrucians
both rank high in most theories.

     Regards,
       Craig Berry
       Internet Information Officer
       United States Grand Lodge
       Ordo Templi Orientis

P.S.  Never expected to use that signature on the TML... :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:18:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Templars

   Hi.

> From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>

> I thought that Fred Saberhagen's Templars fighting off Beserkers sounded
> like the Virus to me, so I made up a group of the same name for my
> TNE campaign.  I posted it to the TML a while back, it is on my web
> page if you want to see it.

   I remember that message you sent; it got me to read Saberhagen's
   novel "Berserker Base", and was one of the reasons the name "Templar"
   jumped into my head when I started talking about a holy order of
   knights.  Sad to say, I know more about Saberhagen's Templars than I
   do about the historical ones.  I once heard of an order of knights
   that protected pilgrims who travelled about Europe in the middle
   ages and who were subject to horrible violence from well armed
   a**holes who were willing to exploit them.  I think they were called
   the hospitallers (please, anyone who knows any real midieval history,
   feel free to jump in).  The idea of defending the defenseless made me
   think of Traveller, and the damage that a bunch of well-armed players
   can do to a low-pop or low-tech world.

   It seems to me that in the absence of any protection from the state,
   semi-private organizations like this will always crop up to "keep the
   peace".  Their founding charisms will be either altruistic or
   "enlightened" self-interest, but like all powerful organisations,
   they will not be immune to corruption or abuse.  The more powerful
   they get, the more likely they are to attract power-hungry
   individuals.  Marc's comment about the Imperium's reluctance to
   pursue interstellar justice (in the "extradition" subject line) got
   me thinking that, if they're not doing it, someone else is.  And that
   sounded like a fun adventure hook to me!

   Note that, if the state is not enforcing some kind of monopoly on
   justice, then there will inevitably be more than one of these
   organisations.  Some of these orders will be on friendly terms with
   each other, others will not...

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:03:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Brad Vender <vender@plains.nodak.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1096

> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:03:19 -0700 (MST)
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Black Globes and J-space
> 
> On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Bill Prankard wrote:
>> 
[Converting gravitons to energy using black globes, and jumping.]
>> Also I have read something in the MT Starships O.M. that densitomiters are 
>> grav sheilded, is it possible to grav shield a ship and therefore allow safe 
>> jumping at closer than 100 diams?
You want to sheild the ship from the source of the energy?  That takes all
  of the fun out of it.
>> 
>> I hate it when sly PC's get crazy ideas into their heads! :)
> 
> Well...this is a prime example of exactly WHY PC's shouldn't get ahold of
> such powerful toys!
> 
> The problem is NOT the effect of gravity upon the ship, but of gravity
> upon the space in the vicinity of the ship, ie: jumping out where space is
> at the curvature produced at less than 100 diameters produces
> unstabilizing effects upon the transition to jump space. Now if your PC's
> have a black globe that, saaay is the 100 diameter radius, well, they
> could do that.
Good point about the effect of gravity on the space around the ship,
  in addition to the effect on the ship.  But a 100 diameter black globe
  wouldn't absorb the energy directed at the ship from inside the sphere.
> 
>     But this puts me in mind of some teenage D&D player
> bragging about his 64th level fighter/magic user defeating a god in single
> combat...the game isn't quite balanced any more ;-)
> 
>    If your PC's do this anyway, make up a rule, like the use of black
> globes in such a fashion triggers Grandfathers sensors in this universe,
> and he comes back out, and takes the dangerous toys away from the little
> hairless apes he infested this universe with. 
> 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
Actually, I'd be more inclined to tell the player that the idea works, but
  not necessarily inform them (unless their player had some knowledge of
  the physics involved, or bothered to ask someone about the problem)
  what the effects on the jump drive would be.  This is Traveller, not
  D&D, so what the ref should have to enforce game balance is "physics".
  Sure, the black globe can absorb gravitons--but what happens when it
  does is the main point.

Of course, in the MT ref's book, the phrase is "If a ship absorbs enough
  energy to make a jump and is supplied with sufficient fuel...", so
  appearantly the gravitons would only be enough to jump start the jump 
  drive (no pun intended) and not actually complete the jump.  But then
  again, what happens to people with anti-matter power plants and jump
  drives?

The solution really is to let the players attempt to fill the capacitors
  in a gravity well, and then try to jump.  Since they're still inside
  the gravity well (and strictly speaking the ship would have to drop
  the black globe to release the energy to jump, probably), they'd be
  in for a massive misjump.  This of course assumes that the capacitors
  didn't overload from the gravitons since there would be an incredible
  amount of energy being directed into the ship very rapidly.  So,
  you'd have to time the moment of jump such that it started when the
  ship had enough energy, and complete the jump before the capacitors
  overloaded.  Nothing like a little excitement for the astrogator
  and engineering crew....and it doesn't have to stop even there.

And for really jaded players, what about ramming black globed ships into
  suns?  Even more energy to play with.  Oh, and if the players are jumping
  from a planet with an atmosphere, you might want to add in even more
  energy (greater time constraints) from pressure.

In short, don't tell them no, they can't do it.  Tell them yes, they can.
  And if you're feeling nice, or they're suspicious enough, then they'll
  find out what happened to the last person who tried it.  But don't stop
  them if they think they have it all worked out--just be prepared to
  explain to them the factors that their character forgot to compensate for.
- --Brad

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:02:24 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...

On Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:19:19 PST, you wrote:

> In mail you write:
>=20
> > What I see when someone designs a weapon such as this is one person's
> > need for a traditional slug thrower that can be fired one-handed and
> > makes a really BIG noise.  Someone like this is more interested in =
the
> > excitement of the sheer "power" or "energy" being harnessed and/or
> > manipulated, and less interested in designing an efficient weapon.  =
We
> > must assume some reasoning behind the progression to laser and
> > plasma/fusion weaponry in the Traveller universe.  While it may not =
be
> > as glamorous as the Dirty Harry "kicks like a mule" hand-cannon =
image,
> > there are far more efficient ways of using level 12 technology to =
kill
> > someone :)
>=20
> More efficient isn't *always* a good idea. I recall a story where the
> protagonist was field testing a new weapon. It damn near got him killed
> because it was *too* efficient.
>=20
> It was a sort of disintegrator. That is, you point it at something and
> everything in fair sized conical volume quietly goes away. How did this
> almost get him killed? Easy. Animals didn't have any reason to connect
> the stuff vanishing with the person. So they were spooked, but not
> afraid of *him*. Not a good combo.

Actually, what I meant by "efficient" was that the *design* of
the weapon was efficient, not the method by which that weapon
delivers damage.  For example, an incandescent lightbulb may be
an efficient way of providing cheap illumination to different
rooms of your house, but the design itself wastes a lot of energy
and is, therefore, inefficient.

[a bunch of really groovy stuff SNIPPED]

> As you can see, a railgun is so simple that the military would love it.
> A couple of long, narrow magnetic plates with a solid seperator, a
> barrel drilled through the seperator, a couple of metal rails embedded
> in the sides of the barrel. Plus a projectile feed and a power source.=20
>=20
> Pull the trigger and it feeds a "dart" into the "receiver" and pushes
> it forward until it engages the rails. At that point, the current
> starts and "zap"! The projectile zooms down the barrel. once the
> current stops, that unlocks things to allow another dart to feed.

Considering that recoil still has to be managed in some--
possibly energy consuming-- way, would such a design be a more or
less efficient method of delivering "damage" than a laser weapon
powered using the same power source?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 07:16:44 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Really a Test

Greetings All:

Tried sending a few messsages lately--questions about the Spinward 
Marches (My Gawd--a classic Trav questions--ruuunnnnn!), some book 
recommendations, etc.--but nothing came through.

So here's another test...



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"Travel in the company of this Ebokin delegation will be, to say the 
least, trying. Like most of her kind, the Fifth Speaker to the Lawless is 
a petulant, self-centered, and demanding individual."

- --The Traveller Adventure, GDW, 1983

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 23:06:22 
From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Subject: Re: THUDDD Votes (March)

On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Douglas E. Berry said:
> >Here are the results for the Official March THUDDD Competition...
> >
> >The envelope please...
> >
> >************************************************************
> >Best Overall Design:
> >
> >   Catullus Aerospace Greek Fire Class (SSDS)
> >
> >   Submitted By:   James Dempsey   jamesd@spirit.com.au
>
>
> Sir Arameth Gridlore speaks:
>
> "I am most pleased to award this iridium-plated rock, suitable for
> acceleration to whatever fraction of C might please you, to Catullus
> Aerospace for their excellent work in designing the Greek Fire Mercenary
> Cruiser.

  Many thanks Sir Gridlore for this fine trophy. I am very pleased to have
been awarded this prize. My thanks also to Dr Clark for his kind words. As
suggested we will be investigating the installation of meson technology for
any interested customers.

  One question I have to ask though, why does the rock have the inscription
"Redmond, USA"?

Baron Marius Peralta


James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:03:51 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas for new toys

>Having done range clearance on a bombing range - I was taught to always
>keep detonators and explosive separate until ready to blow something up.
> This prevents inadvertent explosions when in close proximity - Not a

So we make the detonator part of the strip inert until a small electic
charge or 
some such is ran through it....Say, slap the tape down and then press the 3I's
equivalent of a 9-volt battery against it.


**********************************************************
  Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
 CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:02:48 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Greetings!

Thursday, March 27, we are scheduled to have Sociology 101 presented 
by CmdrX. We'll be on IG's server as usual, with a start time of 
7:30pm, CST.

I'll be out of town this week, so I won't be able to join you.  

I look forward to seeing everyone the week after!

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:08:39 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller PBeM

Greetings!

There is now a page for Traveller Play by Email on the IG website.  
There is a list of players waiting for a game, and there is one game 
(MT rules) listed as forming.  

If you are getting ready to start a game, and would like it listed on 
IG's site, or you would like to be listed as looking to play in a 
game, please email me.  I'll get it posted to IG's site right away.

There is also a list of other games in progress.  These games are 
currently full, but that can change over time.  If you have a game in 
progress that you want listed, please let me know.

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:15:28 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Re: Cloning

Jeff Harvey wrote:

<<I am fairly new to Traveller, and have just begun refereeing a game.  I
am working on a campaign that has a "Blade Runner" feel to it.  I am
using TNE rules.  Because my PC's are new to Traveller as well, I'm
starting them pre-Virus to let them get a feel for some of the
technology, before I take it away from them.  I was wondering if anyone
has rules for cloning.  Are there Mega-corporations in Traveller that
would specialize in creating clones for interested persons.  If anyone
has any information on the subject of cloning in Traveller, I would
appreciate hearing from you.  You can either post it here, or e-mail me
directly.  Thank you.>>

We know that the Emperor used clones, as did the ranking nobles of the
Imperium. The use of clones by the Emperor and Norris is revealed in the MT
supplement "Arrival Vengeance" and the TNE/MT supplement "Survival Margin".
Neither have any rules on the use of clones.

I suspect that the Solomani are likely to be the source of most clones -
Solomani and Aslan mentions the edge that they have genetic engineering
(the profile of Terra gives a 'G', ie tech level 16 rating in this
respect). It also mentions Wuan Technology association - "They studied,
modified and standardised human genotypes. Now, the Wuans can produce
specialised humans suited for any task or environment. A visitor to Wuan
factories will see long rows of identical workers performing the same
industrial task."

I think the key to clones is that they should have near identical STR, DEX,
END, and possibly INT. But EDU and SOC should vary with task and training.
Of course, if you are looking for the excessive abilities shown by
replicants in Bladerunner, why not generate using 2d6+3 or just pick the
stats.

I recommend the book "Cyteen" by CJ Cherryh. It goes into depth on cloning
like nothing else I've read, and ties it to a excellent political Sci-Fi
thriller.

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:09:52 -0800
From: Neil Simpson <catwalk@ibm.net>
Subject: Re:Kafers in Traveller

Very interesting.Does anyone have rules and stats for Kafers?(MegaTrav or T4 
please)                                                                      
           Thanks in advance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1097
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 23 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1098



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MegaTravller -> T4
Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress
RE: Faling Anvils and Stuff
RE:RE: Globes and J-space(Longish)
Swords on ship
Rabbit Hunting
Wonder Woman
Daft Damage Rules
nth Horseman o'the Fingy
Killing battledress
Traveller Mark 5
Killing Battledress
Edu and skills
Edu
Cloning
Re: Questions about SSDS
Re: Cloning
The Children of Earth Is On the Web
Long Blade & Nobles
Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...
Re: Templars
JTAS#25
Dark Star #2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:36:35 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: MegaTravller -> T4

On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Solomani wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Rob Gillingham wrote:
> The second part was what i thought (ancients had tl1-25) but the highest
> Imperial Tech (pulling out book 3 scouts) Tl15 was rare Imperial tech, ie,
> it was the cutting edge experimental stuff in Classic Traveller.

According to a Classic Traveller supplement entitled "Fighting Ships,"
however, the bulk of the Imperial navy seemed to consist of Tech Level 15
vessels - Tech Level 14 'Azhanti High Lightning' cruisers were described
as being "obsolete." I don't have the book with me as I type this, so that
may not be the exact word, but I definitely got the feeling that the
Imperium has more than enough Tech Level 15 warships to put all of its
Tech Level 14 ones in mothballs, or on safe, "backwater" patrol routes.
In short, Tech Level 15 isn't "cutting edge."  Personally, I'd guess the
Third Imperium's ABSOLUTE upper technological limit was the borderline
between Tech Levels 16 and 17, but only on a hand-made, single-item,
hideously expensive, double top secret basis (and even then, probably not
in *every* area, hence the need for those Research Stations)

                                                             - J. Raynor

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:08:42 -0500 (EST)
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Obsolete armor = Battledress

On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mike Sellers wrote:
> And, as they found in Aliens -- and in the intelligence community in real
> life (remember the Soviet carrier Kiev?) -- sometimes having too much info
> is worse than not having enough.  Some method of effectively filtering
> critical info in real-time is probably worth a PhD at about TL 10. :)

I've always assumed that "battle dress" is a Tech Level 12 item because
that's when a tactical computer clever enough to feed the wearer the right
information at the right time becomes practical.  Presumably, "powered
armor," without much of the extensive sensors and communication equipment
that really makes real battle dress *worthwhile*, would be possible at
Tech Level 9 or 10.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:33:36 -0500
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: RE: Faling Anvils and Stuff

X-TEK Corporate agents report:

> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:36:04 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Mark James Wilkin <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
> Subject: Falling Anvils and stuff
> 
> All this talk of orbital bombardment using crowbars and anvils had me 
> thinkmof the possible stratigic escalation that will inevitably happen 
> with such weapons. You'll go onto high velocity death by falling fridge 
> and falling pianos. Then the quantum leap your enemy will unleash the 
> ultimate weapon the Safe, which you then reply to with 15 ton weights 
> (with 15 tons written on them) where will it all end?

The ground troops will be comming at you with fresh raspberries and
loaded bananas! And absolutely NO pointed sticks!

> 
> *** "*Thwap* My life needs a rewind/erase button"               ***
> ***                                          Calvin and Hobbes  ***
> *** Mark James Wilkin                                           ***

- -- 
Commander X
(cmdrx@magicnet.net <or> bprankard@theiia.org)
Creator, Maintainor, and Webmeister of "Planet X"
(www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:47:20 -0500
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: RE:RE: Globes and J-space(Longish)

Responding to responce of old question which has been snipped:

> > 
> > The problem is NOT the effect of gravity upon the ship, but of gravity
> > upon the space in the vicinity of the ship, ie: jumping out where space is
> > at the curvature produced at less than 100 diameters produces
> > unstabilizing effects upon the transition to jump space.

Yes, I had thought the G-well was more space-time warping than an actual
field effect.

> > Now if your PC's
> > have a black globe that, saaay is the 100 diameter radius, well, they
> > could do that.
> Good point about the effect of gravity on the space around the ship,
>   in addition to the effect on the ship.  But a 100 diameter black globe
>   wouldn't absorb the energy directed at the ship from inside the sphere.

Sounds like an interdiction field to me, but there are such things a
jump dampers and projectors too...hrmmmm...interesting.

> Actually, I'd be more inclined to tell the player that the idea works, but
>   not necessarily inform them (unless their player had some knowledge of
>   the physics involved, or bothered to ask someone about the problem)
>   what the effects on the jump drive would be.  This is Traveller, not
>   D&D, so what the ref should have to enforce game balance is "physics".
>   Sure, the black globe can absorb gravitons--but what happens when it
>   does is the main point.
> 
> Of course, in the MT ref's book, the phrase is "If a ship absorbs enough
>   energy to make a jump and is supplied with sufficient fuel...", so
>   appearantly the gravitons would only be enough to jump start the jump 
>   drive (no pun intended) and not actually complete the jump.  But then
>   again, what happens to people with anti-matter power plants and jump
>   drives?
> 
> The solution really is to let the players attempt to fill the capacitors
>   in a gravity well, and then try to jump.  Since they're still inside
>   the gravity well (and strictly speaking the ship would have to drop
>   the black globe to release the energy to jump, probably), they'd be
>   in for a massive misjump.  This of course assumes that the capacitors
>   didn't overload from the gravitons since there would be an incredible
>   amount of energy being directed into the ship very rapidly.  So,
>   you'd have to time the moment of jump such that it started when the
>   ship had enough energy, and complete the jump before the capacitors
>   overloaded.  Nothing like a little excitement for the astrogator
>   and engineering crew....and it doesn't have to stop even there.
> 
> And for really jaded players, what about ramming black globed ships into
>   suns?  Even more energy to play with.  Oh, and if the players are jumping
>   from a planet with an atmosphere, you might want to add in even more
>   energy (greater time constraints) from pressure.
> 
> In short, don't tell them no, they can't do it.  Tell them yes, they can.
>   And if you're feeling nice, or they're suspicious enough, then they'll
>   find out what happened to the last person who tried it.  But don't stop
>   them if they think they have it all worked out--just be prepared to
>   explain to them the factors that their character forgot to compensate for.
> - --Brad
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
Yes, I like this Brad, exactly my philosophy on gaming, you can do
anything, but remember the universe has ways of protecting itself. (3
fold law, karma, Ghod, Grandfather, the GM, call it what you will <G>)

Thanx both to Brad and Bruce for their comments on this subject.  My
PC's will want to kill me now! :)

- -- 
Commander X
(cmdrx@magicnet.net <or> bprankard@theiia.org)
Creator, Maintainor, and Webmeister of "Planet X"
(www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:02 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Swords on ship

>> I thought a shotgun'd be an ideal weapon for just these reasons - v.  good
against soft, squishy targets and *safe* against ship structures! <<

Well, to a point. But some ship systems and structures are "squishy" too;
computer systems (I don't know the current "canon" hardware design for a
holodynamic computer terminal but I'd assume it's rather delicate), being the
most obvious. Imagine you drive your RW car with a PC, like Doom or sumpn. Now,
blast that PC with a shot gun a couple of times. Now, try and avoid that truck
you're heading for....

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | Never contend with a man who has nothing to lose.            |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:10 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Rabbit Hunting

>> Buy the way, why was anyone hunting rabbits with 7.62???!!! I don=92t hun=  t
any more, but when I did I used a .22.  The kinder and gentler way to  kill:-).
<<

Certainly not for the pot! Back in _my_ hunting days I remember a bunny jumping
up right under my feet and me snapping a 12 bore at it by reflex, range about
sixteen inches. Wasn't much left for din-din... Given the normal range of rabbit
encounters, a 7.62 would be as dangerous to the user as the lapine, with the
potential for a really nasty ricochet!

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of     | | the road.
They get run over. (Aneurin Bevan)                 |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:17 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Wonder Woman

>> >Even sillier: reverse the polarity and use it to deflect bullets with a
mere hand-gesture.  >USE THE FORCE, LUKE!    Slight problem here. First you have
to assume the bullets are magnetic (last  I checked, neither lead nor depleted
uranium were), second, if you reverse  the polarity on the magnet, the bullets
will be drawn toward the south pole  of the magnet rather than the north pole.
End result - you're still shot. <<

Well, get a starship repulsor and crank it down, then install it on battledress.
Presto! Instant personal shields! Game balance crashes! Players give up and go
home! Perhaps that's why it's never been done....! :)

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | Ideals kill some men in politics, but politics kill more     | | ideals in
men.                                               |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:20 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Daft Damage Rules

>> GDW adopted a similar thing in all their games (first wound of the day and
you lose your next action), which gave rise to the ".22 alarm clock" in one
Twilight 2000 game I was in (a .22 pistol did just enough damage to annoy
 someone, and healing was within a few hours (!)).  No grounds in reality,  mind
you, but a humorous twisting of the rules... <<

Reminds me of the Car Wars rule, picked up the the Space Gamer Murphy's Rules
feature; you can't commit suicide with a .44 pistol. A PC had 3 hit points,
y'see, and a .44 did 2. 2 damage resulted in unconciousness, and being knocked
out, the poor distraught soul couldn't try again.... :)

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | A cynic is a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as   | | they are,
not as they ought to be. (Ambrose Bierce)          |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:15 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: nth Horseman o'the Fingy

>> Of course, given that Really Annoying People Who Write Posts (Often
1-Liners) To The TML With Long Encoded winmail.dat Things Attached To The  End
are the Spawn of Bill Gates, this has interesting implications about Microsoft,
not to mention Bill himself. <<

Ah, but Bill is not a Horseman. He's a Custom-Built-Limousine-With-Smart-Build
ing-Features-Run-By-Windows-95man. And yes, he probably does herald the
Apocalypse. Which will cost a great deal of money to upgrade to from your old
Fall of Man version 1.0.

Whooo. Too much nice wine. :)

Seriously, as a Computer Support Blerk, I have to cope with normally nice enuff
folx who have trouble with things like this, and I find I don't get as angry as
some of you out there. Maybe I'm getting old and used to bein' Dad. Heh.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | Run it around the block - and see if the wheels fall off.    | | (Spud,
Thick as a Brick MCC)                                 |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:12 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Killing battledress

>> > And as far as akido against BD augmented senses, reflexes, and  >
muscles...heh....heheheheheheh.... Jujitsu or something similar *will* work. The
basic idea is to get your  opponents strength and relexes to work *against* him.
So, while it may  be harder to do to a person in BD, when you pull it off, the
results  will be *spectacular*. <<

Two points that get raised from time to time in my game are; can you stick
limpet mines on battledress (like, pit of the back out of reach), and how easy
is it to knock out the power pack/computer system, leaving the battledress
locked solid and the wearer gift-wrapped for poignard practice.

We tend to deflect the first one (after a good laugh at the mental picture) with
the handwave of "cerametal" armour nicked from Julian May, but the second
continues to bother me. There's no given info to suggest how feasible it is.
Anyone got any take?

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | Too much of a good thing is wonderful.                       |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:05 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Traveller Mark 5

>> So, by the end of this year (dunno when exactly, just saying that as a
conservative estimate) the "standard" T4 rule book will be what we're   calling
"T4 Deluxe".      As for what the difference between what we already have and
"T4 Deluxe"   will be, I don't know.  Only Marc knows. From what we've seen,
he's   apparently revising the task system.  Ummm...any other hints anyone has
noticed? <<

<Sigh>. No, I don't think I'll be bothering. It's nice to see Traveller back in
print, and I fully intend to buy supplements and packs to provide myself with
background. But since T4's arrival, I and my gaming group have used nothing from
the rules, and I can't see any point at all buying it all over _again_. Nope; T4
goes in my shelf with the other stuff I don't use - Hawkmoon, Bunnies and
Burrows, MERP, Shadowrun. And it'll stay there while I play Traveller.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | Wickedness is a myth invented by good people to account for  | | the curious
attractiveness of others. (Oscar Wilde)          |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:08 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Killing Battledress

[Duck Berry] >> And when the point-defence laser mounted on my BD stops your
grenade(s)  after 2 meters of flight, and my point-defence radar immediately
give me a  visable flight path back to the launch point, information that the
other  three members of my fire team have instant access to, what are you going
to  do then?    Also, I've got a sensor suite that will detect your goon either
by IR or contour mapping.. I may fire first with a hand-held gauss machine gun
or  plasma weapon!  Not to mention that since I'm already in a sealed
enviroment, I have no problem with punching holes in the hull.   <<

I have to say, I'd put my money on the man in the tin suit. If the goon had had
a brain, however, he'd have stayed in the bridge and turned the gravity in the
appropriate area up to 3, 4, 5g or so. And then come along and disconnected his
power pack from way over here with a laser welder before killing him with
something real cheap, like a potato peeler. :)

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | Take a lesson from the weather: It pays no attention to      | | criticism.
| [------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:22 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Edu and skills

>> If we define an EDU rating of 15 (F) as being the equivalent of a
post-doctorate degree, people in the Traveller universe (with access  to
longevity drugs) can _easily_ live long enough to acquire  additional
post-doctorate degrees in other totally-unrelated fields. Now the individual has
multiple pieces of paper (which we will assume  means that the character DOES
possess those skills).  Even without  Anagathics, multiple doctorates are still
possible.  What is such a  character's EDU rating now? :) <<

Still F but with more skills - or more specialty fields within those skills?
Just a gut reac.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 00:03:24 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Edu

>> >>I disagree.  I took plenty of classes that I don't remember squat about.
>>But I still have my degree, don't I.  So if EDU is absolute, I've acquired
>>EDU 9 (or whatever a BS is) whether I can remember it or not.  > >Um, if you
can't remember it, why does it do you any good?

LOTS of good.  I have a degree in Electrical Engineering. There are  *hundreds*
of jobs that I could get simply by walking in and proving that I  have that
piece of paper. Not all may be EE related and not all may be as  high paying as
my current salary, but they are sure out there.    <<

Yeah, but when your player rolls dice to see whether you get something right, he
adds the EDU value for what you can remember - or know where to look up - not
for some obscure piece of paper in a drawer somewhere.

         The War Dog
         22/03/97 22:27

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 00:10:55 -0500
From: Jeff Harvey <jharvey@nlci.com>
Subject: Cloning

To SD Mooney:

     Thanks for the info.  What your telling me, is that clones will not be
commercially available to any race, including PC's, and that they cannot
be "programmed".  The best cloning that can be had is "generic" humans
at TL-16.  I may have to write my own rules on this, because we, in
1997, have already developed cloning to a degree.  I would think that by
TL-16 there would be a huge market for clones, even they would be
incredibly expensive (somewhere in the 10's of MCr's).  Let me know what
you think.  I could use some ideas on this.  Thanks again for the info. 

                              Jeff Harvey

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 13:27:10 
From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Subject: Re: Questions about SSDS

Hello Andrew, on Mar 19 you wrote:

> I'm putting some finishing touches on a SSDS spreadsheet (Which I
> will make available to others when finished), but I have a couple
> of questions:
>
> 1) How is the Armor Rating (on the USP) found? Is it the armor
> value you use when building the hull?
>
  You should have a look at my SSDS errata page. It has this and a number
of other corrections to SSDS explained. Have a look at
http://www.spirit.net.au/~jamesd/Trav/SSDS/Errata.html

> 2) How the %#$@% do you calculate weapon battery USPs? Could someone
> provide some concrete examples? In particular, it appears to me
> that all of the Meson Bay weapons have USPs of 2/0-0-0-0, which
> make them useless...
>
  Hmm, interesting point. To take the example of the TL15 Meson gun listed,
you ignore the VS range as it is too short. So in combat terms your damage
at range is

Range    VS  S   M  L
Damage   20  10  5  0
USP       1   0  0  0

Then looking at the ROF, a ROF of 10 should, according to a message supplied by
Wildstar, be subject to a -1 mod, so we get 0-0-0-0. Useless, as you say!

  Perhaps we need to have a look at FFS and check the designs of these. They
don't exactly strike fear into the hearts of the enemy do they!

> 3) Meson screen rating on the table - is that the number you enter
> on the USP, or do you look up that rating on the USP table and use
> the number there?
>
  Convert the value in the size column to a USP value.

> Thanks...
>
  No problems, hope that helps.
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 01:08:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Cloning

 
>    Thanks for the info.  What your telling me, is that clones will not be
> commercially available to any race, including PC's, and that they cannot
> be "programmed".  The best cloning that can be had is "generic" humans

Can _you_ be programmed?  Sorry, I guess all this cloning crap in
the news has it on my mind... a clone is a twin, that's it.  Not a
zombie, not property, a twin.  There is nothing otherwise wierd
about clones.  They'll look like the "parent" but that is it.  They
would have totally different personalities (though they would share
any genetically predisposed traits.

> at TL-16.  I may have to write my own rules on this, because we, in
> 1997, have already developed cloning to a degree.  I would think that by
> TL-16 there would be a huge market for clones, even they would be

Is there a huge market for slaves that are self-breeding without
test tubes at TL16?  This makes no sense.  Who could possibly
imagine any system of law saying that a twin is a non-citizen to be
done with as you please.  Can you harvest your kid's organs at TL16
if you wish (from a legal standpoint)?

> incredibly expensive (somewhere in the 10's of MCr's).  Let me know what
> you think.  I could use some ideas on this.  Thanks again for the info. 

Cloning would be cheap, but then again so is making a human the old
fashioned way.  The only possible "market" for clones might be for
using their organs---and it would be as illegal as it would be to
take organs from somebody without permission now.

I'd think that it's a total non-issue by high TLs since they might
be able to clone just the organ without making a person (which would
make it impossible to take away without assaulting a human).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 03:17:32 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: The Children of Earth Is On the Web

OK everyone,

   The Official Children of Earth Homepage is now suitable for public
viewing.  You can check it out at:

http://dopey.siscom.net/~hdhale/COE.htm

   There is some solid content to it, and more will be added in the
future.

   My TNE site is also up, but rather light on content.  A link to it
exists toward the bottom of the COE page.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 97 03:43:33 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Long Blade & Nobles

>> This gives an elegant explanation for  the automatic 
skill Long Blade-1 that is in keeping with the background  
presented in T4.      Rebuttals?  Agreements?  Suggestions? 
>>    

One point: prior to Year 0, there *were* no nobles. <<

Yes there were, they just weren't _Imperial_ nobles. They 
were assorted planetary nobles/leaders/masters/officers 
doing the same basic jobs. And arising from the same basic roots.


>> BUT, when Ford AND Toyota AND GM AND Hyundai AND Suzuki 
all are around to  sell the high tech, then the law of 
supply and demand intervenes. Whenever  you have multiple 
suppliers of the same tech, the price will go down. The  
Imperium operates in an environment where there have always 
been many  suppliers of a given technology (except, 
apparently fusion+ ;-) so the  differences in tech level 
won't be as marked. 

The differences in  SUPPORTING those TL-12 items on a TL-8 
world...well, that's another story  entirely! <<

Well, the same prinicples apply, except that the product 
your producers are scrambling to sell is Certified Fusion 
Plant Engineer training courses!

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
| Love is the answer, but while you are waiting for the        |
| answer, sex raises some pretty good questions. (Woody        |
| Allen)                                                       |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 01:05:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...

In mail you write:

>> As you can see, a railgun is so simple that the military would love it.
>> A couple of long, narrow magnetic plates with a solid seperator, a
>> barrel drilled through the seperator, a couple of metal rails embedded
>> in the sides of the barrel. Plus a projectile feed and a power source.
>> Pull the trigger and it feeds a "dart" into the "receiver" and pushes
>> it forward until it engages the rails. At that point, the current
>> starts and "zap"! The projectile zooms down the barrel. once the
>> current stops, that unlocks things to allow another dart to feed.
>
> Considering that recoil still has to be managed in some--
> possibly energy consuming-- way, would such a design be a more or
> less efficient method of delivering "damage" than a laser weapon
> powered using the same power source?

Recoil depends on the mass of the dart, and the muzzle velocity. So
it's no harder to manage than for a firearm with the same mass*velocity
of the projectile. Note that this is *momentum, *not* "muzzle energy"!

It's likely *more* efficient than a laser, as a laser needs several MJ
to do much damage to a human. And it has one *big* advantage over a
rifle at Traveller tech levels. The darts merely have to be metal and
somewhat conductive. So as long as you stick to performance in the same
league as a good military rifle, you can make them of any old hunks of
scrap metal you have handy.

Powercells recharge from vehicle power supplies. So the "logistics
train" for a gauss rifle amounts to a "truck" (modified grav APC?) with
an armorer's workroom in it. *Simple* RUGGED tools will turn scrap
metal into darts (if you run low) and power is there as long as the
fusion plant runs.

So a platoon (that's the unit between squad and company isn't it?)
should be able to operate independently for a *long* time. Which
mercenaries and special forces types will *love*. The guns are rugged,
very little that can't be fixed by the armorer, and ammo is effectively
free. 

Lasers would be better except that when dealing with man portable
units, you get more damage to a human by using a projectile with 1 MJ
than a 1 MJ pulse from a laser. And the projectile doesn't ionize the
air leaving a "here I am" pointer! Lasers *do* at weapons level power
outputs[1]. 

As heavy weapons the lasers beat projectile weapons. But for "small
arms" the projectile is king.

1. someday I have to dig out an article on lasers and scan in the
picture of a laser beam ionizing the air. It looks like a cheap special
effect! 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:20:25 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Templars

Hi Craig,

On 22-Mar-97, Craig Berry wrote:

T>I've been following this Templar discussion with some interest, as I am a
T>Grand Lodge officer of Ordo Templi Orientis, a group whose name and
T>symbolism derives from the Knights Templar.  Thus, I feel it incumbent on
T>me to set the record straight.

Thanks Craig for the historical record, I can now see that I was mixing up
the Templars with the Crusaders, doh!.

T>There are very persistent myths, which originated as the Templars gained
T>in prestige, that the knights of this order were secretly initiated into
T>Saracen (Arab) religious mysteries, perhaps even those of the Assassins. 
T>This was in all likelihood the sort of wild rumor that attaches to any
T>powerful and secretive group, but there are shreds of historical evidence
T>which support the idea.  By the way, the original Knights of the Grail
T>myth, Parsifal, was inspired when the author (blanking on the name, sorry)
T>saw Templars in action at a siege near Cairo.

Would it be at all possible to expand on these myths if reworked into a
Traveller context?.  There's an ancients adventure in there somewhere.

T>became quasi-mercenaries, and also bankers(!), inventing the first crude
T>checking-account system (deposit gold at Templar fort A, get encoded
T>certificate, withdraw it at Templar fort B).

The first Solomani megacorp???.  How many of the Traveller megacorps are in
the hands of the nobility? and could therefore fund the Templars "police
actions"..

T>In time, the Templars became truly staggeringly wealthy, attracting the
T>avarice and fear of European nobility and high clergy.  King Phillip of
T>France finally crushed the Templars and siezed their assets in a sudden,
T>brutal campaign, killing many members of the Order (including the Grand
T>Master) and forcing the rest to flee or go into hiding.  Tracking where
T>these latter knights ended up has been one of the most popular conspiracy
T>theorist games for the last five centuries; the Masons and Rosicrucians
T>both rank high in most theories.

Change Philip of France to his Imperial majesty Cleon I, and you've a
wonderfully dark edged and compelling political background to M0 (which I
haven't got yet - is there any suggestion of political infighting in this
book?).

Cheers,

Jason Davies
- -- 
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you...always"

                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 06:43:32 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: JTAS#25

Greetings:

(I had sent this out once, but it never made it to the list.)

I've got two copies of JTAS#25. Anybody interested in it (US mail only) 
for $4.00? First reply (send mail to me, not the list) gets it.



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"Travel in the company of this Ebokin delegation will be, to say the 
least, trying. Like most of her kind, the Fifth Speaker to the Lawless is 
a petulant, self-centered, and demanding individual."

- --The Traveller Adventure, GDW, 1983

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 06:43:34 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Dark Star #2

Greetings:

(I had sent this once previously but it apparently never made it to the 
list.)

Phil McG. sent me two copies of Dark Star #2. Anybody interested (US mail 
only)? Send me e-mail (not to this list!). First come, first served.



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"Travel in the company of this Ebokin delegation will be, to say the 
least, trying. Like most of her kind, the Fifth Speaker to the Lawless is 
a petulant, self-centered, and demanding individual."

- --The Traveller Adventure, GDW, 1983

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1098
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 23 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1099



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Killing battledress
Cloning
Cloning: Adventures in Biology! (Long)
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"   (Cutlass)
Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)
Re: Ideas for new toys
Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...
Re: Shields?
Re: Rabbit Hunting
Re: Killing battledress
Re: Traveller Mark 5
Re: Templars
Re: Templars
Re:  Cloning
Re: Shields?
Re: Here's what I want to see.
Re: Shields? edge o' pylons
Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures
Re: Terraforming
More Reasos for Space Stations...
Spinward Marches Campaign: Maps
The Stuff of Legends...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 02:42:02 +1100 (EST)
From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Re: Killing battledress

Dear Folks -

In Digest 1098 (the Hugh Foster Show ;-), Hugh said:
>Two points that get raised from time to time in my game are; can you stick
>limpet mines on battledress (like, pit of the back out of reach), and how easy
>is it to knock out the power pack/computer system, leaving the battledress
>locked solid and the wearer gift-wrapped for poignard practice.

>We tend to deflect the first one (after a good laugh at the mental picture)
with
>the handwave of "cerametal" armour nicked from Julian May, but the second
>continues to bother me. There's no given info to suggest how feasible it is.
>Anyone got any take?

A certain teleporting Droyne in my campaign loves using the first option
against enemy targets: teleport behind them, stick on a shaped charge,
teleport away, and telekinetically "flick" the detonator (which is inside
the totally sealed bomb). Ouch. BTW, doesn't matter if the armour isn't
metal (although "canon" suggests that it is superdense or bd): just use some
instant glue. If you are mean, roll to see if the Droyne sticks himself to
the armour _as well_; he may want to teleport away with no clothes (so much
for the triply-expensive Droyne battledress he was wearing).

As for the second, my vague memory says that the Trav Digest article
mentioned that suits could "freeze up" (especially moving parts such as
joints) after being hit by fire. However, this was in the descriptive part
of the article - no rules were ever given. Why not say that a major
penetration (in whatever system you are using) requires a roll on the Robot
tables to see what was damaged, and therefore a roll to make that limb
useless, or the hearing dead, or cause a malfunction in a vital system such
as waste recycling. For example, I know I wouldn't want to be in one of
those things if the computer went haywire - although a picture of
battledress doing a marionette-like dance might be funny to watch. "Close
the door, Virgil". "FAB, Dad!"
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:38:50 +0000
From: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
Subject: Cloning

Jeff Harvey wrote:

<< Thanks for the info.  What your telling me, is that clones will not be
commercially available to any race, including PC's, and that they cannot
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not generally, but with sufficient money or influence.

be "programmed".>>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, citing back to 'Cyteen' (which isn't Traveller canon, but is one of
the best treatments of cloning I've seen in a novel), you can create near
identical clones, but they do that by controlling all the stimulation and
training that they get during training ('tape training'). It's more of a
brainwashed conditioning. Arguably, that's what you see with Deckard and
Rachel in Bladerunner. Once you have the clone out of a controlled
environment, they will change. (Another novel by Cherryh springs to mind
'40000 on Gehenna'). IMO, this is what the Wuans have done. (NB - may
references to Cyteen are done with through the mist of three years - I've
yet to replace it since one of my house mates (a biochemist!) dropped it in
the bath!)

<<The best cloning that can be had is "generic" humans
at TL-16.>>

No, you can clone specific humans - Seldarian (a female clone of Archduke
Norris) is an example. I suspect that cloning starts at lower tech levels,
particularly as the Wuans are noted as developing the technology during the
Long Night. Additionally (**MT background spoiler warning - don't read the
rest of para if you don't want to risk it**) we know from Survival Margin
that some pretty good clones must exist, as Strephon's was assassinated by
Dulinor *and very few people knew the truth of the matter.

<< I may have to write my own rules on this, because we, in
1997, have already developed cloning to a degree.  I would think that by
TL-16 there would be a huge market for clones, even they would be
incredibly expensive (somewhere in the 10's of MCr's).>>

Cloning comes up against the Imperiums endorsement of the rights of all
sentient life forms to be considered Imperial citizens. Now if that is the
case, a clone is enslaved. Article VI of the Warrant of Restoration cites
this a prohibited. However, this is canon Third Imperium, and doesn't stop
your own version of Traveller having cloning as legal. Otherwise, the
market is going to be restricted. It is one of those things that the Vilani
(boo! hiss!) are going to use to condemn the Solomani.

I agree on the high cost - they should be the preserve of mega-corps, high
nobles and governments, much like top end synaptic processing robots.

When I've had clones in a scenario (yes, a bladerunner clone some years
ago) I just maxed out the physical characteristics at F (15) in MT. Hope
that helps...

    -Dom Mooney- dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"But everything is still the same; passing the time, passing the blame.
We carry on in the same old way, we'll find out we left it too late one day,
 to say what we meant to say." - Marillion
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:49:02 -0400
From: Christian Razukas <chrisraz@clark.net>
Subject: Cloning: Adventures in Biology! (Long)

In response to recent posts stating there's no future for cloning in the
far future:


Cloning has many interesting uses in the Traveller universe...and not just
from the Boys-from-Brazil-Adolph-Hitler clone perspective.

1.  One may breed or genetically engineer an exceptional adaptable plant or
animal and then clone it to produce mass populations.

For example, it's not easy to breed wolves into dogs or to make seedless
orange trees.  It's not easy to geneticallly engineer an animal that can
live in highly corrosive atmospheres.  But once viable specimens are
produced, they can be cloned, reproduced and propagated en masse.
Remember:  it is indeed more difficult to genetically engineer an organism
than it is to clone it.

These techniques can be used to terraform a planet or to assist in its
colonization.

Adventure Hook:  The characters may be responsible for finding suitable
animals for the scientists to modify (a la CT Adventure Safari Ship) or
dealing with the genetic experiments gone awry (Aliens-meets-Frankenstein).

2.  Jurrasic Park scenario.  So you want to make a sixty-five million year
old animal from fragmentary DNA?  Once you get enough animal DNA from
mosquito blood trapped in amber and substitute frog DNA for the missing
stuff, you'll have enough to make your own velociraptor.  But you're going
to need to clone that 'raptor; it's unlikely that you unearthed enough DNA
to produce a viable population of individuals.

Why would you create and then clone a creature from fragemntary DNA?

Say you're trying to bring back extinct animal "B" that was the natural
predator of currently out-of-control animal "A."  (a la the CT adventure
"Horde").

Say you're trying to bring back animal "C," whose organs could be pulped
into the cure for space-ebola sickness.  (The scientist character finds a
clue to the current plague in a First Empire Exploration Record.  An animal
in another subsector, now extinct, provided a cure to a similar plague
9,000 years ago.  The party goes to find fossil of the animal (or museum
specimens) to clone).

Say you're trying to bring back animal "D" (for dinosaur) as part of your
"Six Flags Over Sylea Amusement Park."

Cloning would offer a good way to mass produce those animals.

3.  Colonization.

I think it reasonable that the totalitarian Solomani would take a genetic
smaple from each citizen (much like a fingerprint is done today).  With
that information, they can clone people (the "right" people) to their
hearts content.

During colonization efforts, cloned eggs will be kept in storage on mother
ships and "hatched" when the ship lands.   Twenty-years later you can have
a 1,000,000 person strong colony without the expense of shipping 1,000,000
people.

(Scenario is from the Solomani and Aslan Alien Module).

4.  Organs.

I am not suggested cloning people for their organs!

I've read of this scenario being promulgated by scientists.  The pig's
immune system most closely mirrors the human's immune system.  Let's say
you genetically engineer a pig by adding the human genes for immunity.
Now, hypothetically, one can transplant the pig's organs to a human and
have the organ be accepted as a human organ due to the presence of human
immunoreceptors.  I clone the pig so everyone can have organ transplants.
I may have some of the sceince wrong, but you see the principle.

"Fire, Fusion and Steel" is just part of the advances in future technology.
There's room for biology, too!


- ----
chrisraz@clark.net
"I have Neiman-Marcus cookie recipies."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 17:15 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"   (Cutlass)

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970318114343.0079b650@pop.ma.ultranet.com>

<<    Definately in the Falklands.  The Gurkas were also present.  The sight
of them with those large curved knives (Kuri) probably set more than one 17
year old conscript to quivering at the bottom of their foxhole. >>

They were there, but I don't think they actually saw combat. It's 'Kukri', 
BTW.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 17:15 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Melee Wpns, Reality, and Why Marines Use "Long Blade"  (Cutlass)

In-Reply-To: <332EED56.7A24@well.com>

<< In the Falklands War, the Gurkha kukri blade was also a psychological 
peration.  The Argentine troops at one point expressed their concern over 
facing the Gurkhas, and the locals started telling them stories of how the 
Gurkhas would typically infiltrate an encampment at night and behead every 
sleeping enemy:  "It's easy to tell if a Gurkha has paid a visit.  When you 
get up in the morning, turn your head.  If your head falls off, you've had a 
Gurkha."  I read about this in Newsweek or Time soon after the war. >>

I *really* like the Gurkhas, they're just incredible (think terminators with a 
sense of humour...) I'm gonna have to bring them into my campaign somehow.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:37:01 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas for new toys

At 03:03 PM 3/22/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Having done range clearance on a bombing range - I was taught to always
>>keep detonators and explosive separate until ready to blow something up.
>> This prevents inadvertent explosions when in close proximity - Not a
>
>So we make the detonator part of the strip inert until a small electic
>charge or 
>some such is ran through it....Say, slap the tape down and then press the 3I's
>equivalent of a 9-volt battery against it.

No, SEPERATE.  As in not in contact with each other until it is time to go
boom.  The reason for this is to insure that there is no way for an
accidental detonation.

In my expereince, every care is taken to keep the detonator and explosive as
far as possible from each other until it is time for the demolition.  then,
and only then, are the two mated.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   in clown outfits.    -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:37:38 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Realistic Gauss gun design...

At 01:05 AM 3/23/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Recoil depends on the mass of the dart, and the muzzle velocity. So
>it's no harder to manage than for a firearm with the same mass*velocity
>of the projectile. Note that this is *momentum, *not* "muzzle energy"!

Question:  It's always been my understanding that a gauss rifle would have a
lower recoil due to the fact that the is accelerated over the length of the
barrel, not suddenly by the explosion of a powder charge.  Am I
misunderstanding something?

>It's likely *more* efficient than a laser, as a laser needs several MJ
>to do much damage to a human. And it has one *big* advantage over a
>rifle at Traveller tech levels. The darts merely have to be metal and
>somewhat conductive. So as long as you stick to performance in the same
>league as a good military rifle, you can make them of any old hunks of
>scrap metal you have handy.

Based on my work with 3G3, I'd have to agree.. Railguns out perform lasers
of the same power/weight.

>Powercells recharge from vehicle power supplies. So the "logistics
>train" for a gauss rifle amounts to a "truck" (modified grav APC?) with
>an armorer's workroom in it. *Simple* RUGGED tools will turn scrap
>metal into darts (if you run low) and power is there as long as the
>fusion plant runs.

Certainly makes logistics easier to handle.  I could imagine that a
point-defence unit equipped with VRF Gauss weapons would have one of these
shops for every three or four gun sleds.

>So a platoon (that's the unit between squad and company isn't it?)
>should be able to operate independently for a *long* time. Which
>mercenaries and special forces types will *love*. The guns are rugged,
>very little that can't be fixed by the armorer, and ammo is effectively
>free. 

Platoon is the step between squad and company.  Platoons, however, are
manuver units; they tend not have any sort of "support" vehicles attached.
You would probably find these armorers' vehicles attached at the battalion
level, as part of the supply force.

>As heavy weapons the lasers beat projectile weapons. But for "small
>arms" the projectile is king.

I seem to recall that we discovered that the railgun version of the Intrepid
grav tank kicked ass over the fusion version... have to look up the comparison.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   Police in Uganda are searching for a man who  |
|   tranquilizes gorillas, then dresses them in   |
|   in clown outfits.    -News of the Weird       |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:52:32 -0600
From: Jeff Schmidt <jschmidt@netco.com>
Subject: Re: Shields?

>> Quoth MegaTraveller Referee's Manual, page 80:
>> "White globes restrict any projectile or beam from contacting the craft
>> while still allowing the occupants to see out and to use sensors without
>> restriction."
>
>Slight problem. To "see out" whether with eyes or sensors requires that
>the radiation being used be allowed to travell *in*. As an example, if
>light can only go out, but not in, then you cannot *see* from the
>inside, but if there's enough illumination of the ship inside the
>globe, people outside can see it! But a laser won't hit.
>
>So it *cannot* be possible to "see out of" a white globe. You can send
>signals out, you just can't receive.
>

FF&S, page 59:
"...white globes were tuned to allow certain narrow wavelengths through.
These are usually wavelengths which are not particularly useful for
weaponry, particularly space-based weaponry.  White globe-equiped ships
thus tend to rely heavily on infrared wavelength radiation for sensors and
make extensive use of masers for tight beam communications."


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Schmidt                         | NetCo Communications Corporation
software engineer, Mac development   | 333 N. Washington Ave. Ste. 102
(612) 519-0878                       | Minneapolis MN 55401, USA
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:12:26 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Rabbit Hunting

Hugh Foster wrote:
> Certainly not for the pot! Back in _my_ hunting days I remember a bunny jumping
> up right under my feet and me snapping a 12 bore at it by reflex, range about
> sixteen inches. Wasn't much left for din-din... Given the normal range of rabbit
> encounters, a 7.62 would be as dangerous to the user as the lapine, with the
> potential for a really nasty ricochet!

The actual incident occurred at the end of a day of range shooting in the Canadian Forces. 
A rabbit, for some reason unknown to humaniti, ran across the range, whereupon 
everyone showed a complete disregard for fire discipline. The actual range was about 50m

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:16:37 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Killing battledress

Hugh Foster wrote:
> 
> >> > And as far as akido against BD augmented senses, reflexes, and  >
> muscles...heh....heheheheheheh.... Jujitsu or something similar *will* work. The
> basic idea is to get your  opponents strength and relexes to work *against* him.
> So, while it may  be harder to do to a person in BD, when you pull it off, the
> results  will be *spectacular*. <<

OK, lets see you throw an elephant. Loads of momentum there. C'mon, throw'em

> Two points that get raised from time to time in my game are; can you stick
> limpet mines on battledress (like, pit of the back out of reach), and how easy
> is it to knock out the power pack/computer system, leaving the battledress
> locked solid and the wearer gift-wrapped for poignard practice.

and the BD can have reactive armour for dealing with annoyances like unarmoured idiots 
trying to throw them.
 
> We tend to deflect the first one (after a good laugh at the mental picture) with
> the handwave of "cerametal" armour nicked from Julian May, but the second
> continues to bother me. There's no given info to suggest how feasible it is.
> Anyone got any take?

See my above. Plus, the BD has sensory enhancement features. You say, so do the 
unarmoured infantry. But the BD's is bigger, greater resolution and, frankly, better

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:19:38 +0000
From: Mused <marz@HotStar.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Mark 5

Hugh Foster wrote:
> <Sigh>. No, I don't think I'll be bothering. It's nice to see Traveller back in
> print, and I fully intend to buy supplements and packs to provide myself with
> background. But since T4's arrival, I and my gaming group have used nothing from
> the rules, and I can't see any point at all buying it all over _again_. Nope; T4
> goes in my shelf with the other stuff I don't use - Hawkmoon, Bunnies and
> Burrows, MERP, Shadowrun. And it'll stay there while I play Traveller.

I hear ya. I started running T4, but at the time I had no background, so I was forced to 
bump my players to an era where I did have info. And since I was already using the MT 
task system, I rarely even look at the books now. 

I don't think I will be buying anything beyond the pocket empires book. I am glad 
Traveller came back, but the regrets as to this incarnation are too much

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 14:13:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Templars

   Hi.

> From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>

> Change Philip of France to his Imperial majesty Cleon I, and you've a
> wonderfully dark edged and compelling political background to M0 (which I
> haven't got yet - is there any suggestion of political infighting in this
> book?).

   HaHaHaHaHa...  Man, are you ever going to enjoy M0!

   -Rob

   PS     I mean, yes, there are suggestions of imperial intrigue in this
   book. 8^)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:52:59 -0800
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Templars

If you're interested in the Templars, there are a few good web sites on
them.  Also check out just about anything on the Rosicrucians, the dimmer
sections of your local used-book store, and, though it's laborious, you'll
probably want to read Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco, just to get an
idea of how all-encompassing the Templars myth (?) can become.  In a way,
you could easily get to a mixture of Cthulu-meets-Paranoia-meets-Traveller,
but without drowned cities or _any_ silliness.  Just a bunch of (rightly)
jittery players. :)

- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:05:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Brad Vender <vender@plains.nodak.edu>
Subject: Re:  Cloning

> From: Jeff Harvey <jharvey@nlci.com>
> To SD Mooney:
> 
>    Thanks for the info.  What your telling me, is that clones will not be
> commercially available to any race, including PC's, and that they cannot
> be "programmed".  The best cloning that can be had is "generic" humans
> at TL-16.  I may have to write my own rules on this, because we, in
> 1997, have already developed cloning to a degree.  I would think that by
> TL-16 there would be a huge market for clones, even they would be
> incredibly expensive (somewhere in the 10's of MCr's).  Let me know what
> you think.  I could use some ideas on this.  Thanks again for the info. 
> 
>                             Jeff Harvey
> 
Actually, I think the problem with cloning is the typical usage versus the
  narrow definition.  The simplest form of cloning is what we have now--
  the ability to create genetically identical organisms.  Unfortunately
  (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) the common usage of cloning
  is to create a copy which is not only genetically identical but which is
  of the desired physiological development and has already accumulated
  knowledge identical (or atleast equivalent) to the original.
After all, even if a scientist decides to create 500 genetically identical
  sheep in some laboratory somewhere, the scientist still has to wait for
  normal physiological development.  So, the standard sci-fi cloning issue
  would involve regular cloning, followed by accellerated development of the
  tissue, and topped off by either memory implantation or speed learning
  (take your pick).  Get all that accomplished, and then you have your
  "cloning" ability.  
But then again, its the same problem for mass producing artificial 
  intelligences as for mass producing clones.  There really are easier and
  better (not to mention less resource intensive) ways to do all this
  (not that it stops anyone).
Oh, and don't forget about the tissue development involved (after all,
  weight lifters don't get massive muscles by being born with them) to get
  the cloned invidivual prepared for its role.  So maybe the TL16 version
  is so advanced because it involves all of the above issues, and not
  simply out of designer errors.
- --Brad

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 22:31 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Shields?

In-Reply-To: <19970320015105.AAA4333@LOCALNAME>

<< White globes are black globes that 'flicker'. Normal black globe lets
nothing in or out, you are safe, but you can't shoot, either. 'Flickering'
the field would be timed to weapons/sensors so that you could get a shot off
between times the field was up. And hoped no one else had gotten the timing
down on your 'flicker' rate to hit you when you were trying to shoot. >>

Nope. All BGs can flicker. WGs let you fire out & manoeuvre, but still stop 
incoming fire.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:43:25 +0000
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Here's what I want to see.

Sounds like a plan, I like Space Above and Beyond as Well.
Watched it when ever I could, unfortunately it was prempted much to 
often.
 
> For my next campaign, I'm thinking of having the PCs start as Navy/Marines, 
> fresh out of training (Traveller: Above and Beyond, anyone?)

Vance Scott

Vanquisher of all foes.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:05:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shields? edge o' pylons

>those cute little Ewooks (hate, hate, hate)

Open up Anders, tell us how you really feel.

I hated them as well, Guess Chewbakka wasn't cute enough to make into a plush
toy.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:05:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: All kinds of characters, all kinds of adventures

>Edmund Blackadder, Bertie Wooster, whatever the name of the Minister in 
>Yes Mr. Minister is...the Imperium is doomed, I tell you, doomed! 
LOL Bruce-
Let me guess, Jeeves, Steward 5, JOT 11.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:22:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Neveron@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terraforming

In a message dated 97-03-20 12:19:06 EST,Shadow writes:

>Also, another reason for the "iceburg" approach would be something like
>Venus. They can help increase the rotation, and cool things a little. 
No, they would become water vapor, one of the major problems with Venus now.
Venus would need some seriously hardy plant-like "thingys" to remove the
carbon from the atmosphere to cut down on the greenhouse effect.
dsf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 21:20:46 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: More Reasos for Space Stations...

Greetings:

A few more reasons why I've used space stations (of varying sizes, up to 
O'Neil Colony LaGrange Point type sized worldlets...):

Service large solar-power collectors
Industry in space (smelting ores from the Belt)
Isolation of dangerous experiments...or dangerous transhipped cargo! 
(Alien, anyone?)
Because we **like living here**!

We know the Imperium of the Classic Trav period used space stations of 
fairly large sizes. Look at how many Downports had linked Upports! Or 
better yet, look at Glisten in the Spinward Marches...Type A Spaceport, 
Naval Base, Scout Base, nexus of four jump routes...

Sounds like my kind of place!



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"Travel in the company of this Ebokin delegation will be, to say the 
least, trying. Like most of her kind, the Fifth Speaker to the Lawless is 
a petulant, self-centered, and demanding individual."

- --The Traveller Adventure, GDW, 1983

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 21:20:57 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Spinward Marches Campaign: Maps

Greetings All:

In working on my Classic Traveller Spinward Marches campaign, I've been 
thinking about maps. Of course, I've got the (in)famous map of the 
Marches--in Classic, Rebellion and New Era versions. However, I started 
fiddling with the maps in Supplement Three in order to be able to do some 
coding myself using colored pencils. I photocopied the maps, cut them out 
and taped them together. Interestingly, either the photocopier I used or 
the maps themselves are slightly distorted--as some sectors don't quite 
mesh! In any case, a few hours work with tape, scissors and pencils and 
I've got a Spinward Marches map on my closet door that shows major groups 
(Imperium, Zhodani, SW, Darrians, etc.), Amber Zones, Red Zones, water 
worlds, etc...and trading routes. For example, the whole "Spinward Main" 
is outlined as are the Towers Cluster, the Kinorb Run, the Mainz Line and 
the Edenelt Cluster. 

I'm now in the process of making a series of player maps, using the 
smaller 8.5x11 maps found in books like GDW's Spinward Marches Campaign 
(the post-FFW adventure). I'm looking for ideas of what I should 
highlight on each. I figure one map per theme, e.g., one map showing all 
A class starports, one highlight jump routes, etc. This would work with 
my Trader-oriented Library Data to help the player's plan their routes. 
I'm intentionally limiting them to a J1 ship--either one that only has J1 
engines or one with a higher class of drive that--through neglect--is 
limited to J1 (see Twilight's Peak for where I got this from). I want to 
start them "poor", but leave them an out so they can upgrade...either by 
replacing the engines or doing things like adding external tanks (and no, 
I don't want to start that debate again!). Maps I've come up with so far 
have been:

Red Zones (interdicted...but the big question is: Do I let them know 
***why*** these worlds are interdicted??????)
Amber Zones
Jump Routes
Political boundries (Imperium, Imperium allied states, Sword Worlds, 
Vargr, Darrians, unaligned states)
Water worlds
A starports...B starports...through a map of worlds with E starports...
Imperial Navy Bases
Scout bases
Non-imperial navy/scout bases
Worlds over xxxx in pop
Worlds under xxxx in pop
Gas giants
Asteroid belts
Jump route map
"Official" trade route maps, e.g., which worlds Oberlides visits, the 
Aramis subsector lines, etc.
"Unoffical" trade route maps, e.g., all the J1 clusters like the Spinward 
Main
Legends...the only one I've got so far is "The Abyss" from a Challenge 
article about the space around Victoria/Sonthert/Ylaven where...according 
to the author...the pirates may lurk...

As they get deeper into the Marches I may produce new maps to show the 
stages of various Frontier Wars, the extent of the old Darrian 
Confederation, the extent of the devastation caused by the Darrians, 
Chirper Worlds, Droyne Worlds, worlds where traces of Aslan or Varry or 
others have been found...

I'm open to suggestion: Any other items I should highlight on these maps? 
Remember that we are dealing with the "Classic" era, so I can't go too 
far into the future...no viral pathways, for example...




Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"Travel in the company of this Ebokin delegation will be, to say the 
least, trying. Like most of her kind, the Fifth Speaker to the Lawless is 
a petulant, self-centered, and demanding individual."

- --The Traveller Adventure, GDW, 1983

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 97 21:21:12 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: The Stuff of Legends...

Greetings All:

I'm working on my Classic Traveller campaign set in the Spinward =
Marches (hey...The Spinward Marches Campaign...). It's set to start =
in the early days (1105 onwards) so that I can have the players catch =
the Fifth Frontier War and all that good stuff.

Lately I've been scouring various sources to build up the Library =
Data. Not only do I intend to use the canonical Library Data from =
GDW, but anything I can adapt from Travellers' Digest, MegaTrav =
Journal, High Passage and others.

Another source, of course, is science fiction itself. For example, =
one megacorporation that the player's may encounter is IPX or =
Interplanetary Expeditions. Those of you who follow B5 as closely as =
I do will recognize that corporation...(I'm also trying to find the =
name of the corporation that Ripley worked for in Alien, etc.)

Written science fiction will also provide a wealth of ideas. Now, =
just because something is in my Library Data doesn't make it "real". =
Also stuffed in here will be rumors, legends and downright lies. =
Since I intend to run a merchant-oriented campaign, and my thinking =
on the merchants has been heavily influenced by Andre Norton, Poul =
Anderson and a few others, rumors and legends are mandatory! How else =
do you make that Big Strike that allows you to retire to Capital/Core =
and live in style.

I'm currently re-reading Andre Norton's Sargasso of Space, the first =
in her series on the Free Trader Solar Queen (the other books in the =
series are Voodoo Planet--usually found in a double edition with Star =
Hunter--a book unconnected to the series, Postmarked the Stars, =
Plague Ship--one that I've lost, if anybody ever comes across a =
second hand edition, please give me a shout!, and a new =
volume--co-written with P.M. Griffin, Redline the Stars...Griffin and =
Norton are coming out with a sequel to Redline sometime this year, =
called something like "Spaceship for Sale"). In re-reading this book, =
I'm convinvced that the folks at GDW must of been influenced by =
Norton's writing as well. We have Free Traders, of roughly the same =
crew size as the ships we all know and love. A lot of Norton's books =
share common elements that would fit into Traveller--the Galactic =
Patrol, the Thieve's Guild, legends of Forerunner races and more.

So, I'm starting to adapt bits and pieces of Sargasso of Space into =
my Library Data. I should have started doing this last year when I =
re-read books like The Zero Stone and Uncharted Stars, but luckily I =
enjoy her stuff (and most of it is blessedly short--like like the =
mega-tomes we get today), so you can re-read quickly. Here below are =
a few bits I've picked up from her stuff so far, along with some bits =
from Smith and Trowbridge's Exordium Series and some of my own. =
Anybody else out there have any legends they want to share?

THE=A0SPINWARD MARCHES CAMPAIGN

LIBRARY DATA

C

Combine, The: Spinward Marches based trading megacorporation.

Comet, The: Name of the first Terran ship to attempt hyperspace. =
See:=A0Jones, Sanford.


D

Deneb-Galactic: A trading megacorporation based in the Deneb Sector.

Domestica Felinus (Household Cat): 

F

Falworth=ADIgnesti: A sector=ADwide trading corporation based in the =
Spinward Marches.

Free Traders, The


H

Haverson, Gunnar: Author of =B3Voyages=B2, one of the definitive =
works on the ruins of the Ancients and other Forerunner races.

I

Inter=ADSolar: Solomani Rim based trading megacorporation.

J

Jones, Sanford: First Terran who had dared hyperdrive, whose lost =
ship had suddenly lashed out of hyperspace, over a world of Sirius =
three centuries after his flight started, Jones=B9 mummified body =
still at the frozen controls. Sanford Jones=8Bit is said=8B now =
welcomes on board the Comet all spacemen who have died with their =
magnetic boots on.

K

Kagle, Freidrich: Author of =B3Survey=B2, a semi-biographical, =
semi-historical account of the author=B9s career in the IISS, =
including descriptions of several sites built by the Ancients and =
other Forerunner races.

L

Lamgrim Silk:

N

New Hope, The: A probably mytical ship. The story is that the ship =
blasted off from Mars (Sol System) with refugees from a Martian =
rebellion, never to be sighted again until centuries later=8Bthen =
only to be seen wandering forever in free fall, its dead lights =
glowing evilly red at its nose, its escape ports ominously sealed. =
The New Hope is never boarded and never salvaged because it was only =
sighted=8Bso the story goes=8Bby ships which were themselves in dire =
trouble, so that =B3to sight the New Hope=B2 had become a synonym for =
the worst of luck.

R

Rifters:

Rifthaven:

S

Survey Auction: Auction held by the Imperium during which exclusive =
trading rights to newly opened worlds are sold. Planets are =
classified according to their probable worth (ratings run from A to =
D) and are auctioned using a sealed envelope method. It is not until =
the trading firm pays for their envelope that they can see the =
particulars of the world that they have bid on.

T

Thieves Guild, The:

Thork Gems:

Traders Guild, The:

Twin Towers, The: An important find of the Forerunners. On Corvo =
(XXXXX) in the midst of a silicon desert. The towers themselves =
resemble two large fingers, each 200 meters high. As best can be =
determined the towers are solid throughout, and made of an unknown =
substance (neither metal or stone) that has had fantastic lasting =
powers.

W

Wayfarer:

Whisperers, The: Siren voices heard by men who had been too long in =
space.


Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)
(Knight of the Third Imperium--Strephon Himself did it to me!)

"Travel in the company of this Ebokin delegation will be, to say the =
least, trying. Like most of her kind, the Fifth Speaker to the =
Lawless is a petulant, self-centered, and demanding individual."

- --The Traveller Adventure, GDW, 1983

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1099
***********************************
